Dear Keelin, DreamCamp The Sequel will be teeming with people interested in psi experiments!

I just dropped in to post an old lucid dream which turned out to be telepathic, and notice I dreamed it on the date of Keelin's last posting, November 25. I actually found out the very next day that it was telepathic. Preoccupied with many other matters, I procrastinated about posting it here but I really did want to, in response to requests that I keep the topic on lucidity and post lucid psi dreams. I'm reminded recently of the importance of posting psi dreams, by e-mail correspondence with a couple of far-away people I've never met who feel rather isolated by the rarity of opportunity to discuss psi experiences without being thought mad. Here in this forum we are a rational bunch with wide-ranging interests in unusual forms of mental experience, and if some of you think me mad, at least I'm in good company!

Lucidity was useful in this instance because, knowing that I was dreaming, I also recognized that one part of the dream seemed like something I didn't really relate to personally, and I wondered right then if it was telepathic and made mental note to remember it.

I usually edit for brevity but this time I'll post the whole dream for those who really enjoy reading lengthy postings (does someone?). I mentioned this dream in another thread - I think it was Peter who wondered why I'd landed in a dumpster!

I was kept awake for some time by many instances of energy-surges such as I sometimes have while meditating. A voice seemed to say "Minnesota" as I fell asleep; I don't know if that was the scene of my eventual dream, but it seemed that it might be in the Midwest: flat, rural, forested with deciduous trees. I was at a college campus, having begun some course of study, then at home in a big old house where I was staying. I heard what I guessed was a school bus honking, ran out to find it and thought, "Don't worry, either you'll find it in time or you'll turn out to be dreaming!' With that thought I took off flying, and continued to myself: "And if you're dreaming, you don't need to find the bus!'

Elated, I flew southwest over yellow autumn trees, brushing their tops as I passed. I flew into town, turned west above a street, and observed a sign with a pink rose and other things that I figured I'd probably forget; I wondered if I'd just write "Flew a lot, had fun" - and began to feel that I was waking. "Down!' I commanded myself. "Touch! Tactile!' I looked for something to touch to prolong the dream, and the nearest thing was a tall pile of discarded cardboard boxes. I swooped down to touch them, settled and found that I'd landed in a dumpster!

"Why would I want to be in a dumpster in a lucid dream?' I asked myself. "Oh ' I've been wondering about the sense of smell!' I inhaled deeply through my nostrils to test the realism of my dream olfactory sense. Phyew! Ripe and cheesey. Very, very convincing!

There was a friendly man in the dumpster whom I casually recognized as "myself,' and we greeted each other and set about looking for good stuff. I found an old file box, maybe cedar or rosewood, and said, "Look: The lid says "Prayers" ' oh, and the word rearranges into "Love'! Let's see what's in it.'

I opened the box; it was a card file. I pulled out a card headed "Rifle" and began reading some odd story about the danger of giving rifles to kids, and confusing something (prayer maybe) with torture ' all written bit by bit on images of the handles of forks. I didn't want to read it. I wondered if this part of the dream, the story about kids with rifles, was telepathic ' if it meant something to someone else ' I had the impression it might. I pictured myself finding out who while sitting at the computer; maybe someone in the LI Forum, I thought.

I wondered if I'd recall all I'd dreamed so far. I woke, falsely, into a lucid dreaming seminar in what was supposed to be my house. The instructor was demonstrating to two women some physical exercises designed to promote lucidity. "A good deep lunge,' he was saying. I rather arrogantly left the room to write down the lucid dream I'd just had, then thought "I could benefit from those exercises,' and in my own room followed along with the instructions as a young man walked by in the hall.

The music was slow and deliberate, then abruptly changed to a weird fascinating cacaphony (the best analogy I could think of on waking was hundreds of different thin sheets of metal being bent and wobbled) and in amazement I listened to it fade as I woke. I realized I still had a lucid dream to write down, hoped I recalled it, and in my hypnopompic state I heard a rather stern female voice query, "Have you been listening to the sound of the Earth bowing down to itself in the Hundred Tenth Nature?'

I got e-mail the next day from a friend in England mentioning he'd just seen the movie "Bowling for Columbine.' Having had a few telepathic exchanges with him already I wrote back, "Oh, did we do it again? Columbine as in Columbine High School?' He replied, "Yes, as in Columbine Massacre.' I haven't seen the movie (and probably won't ' as in the dream, it isn't a story I want to immerse myself in) but if I remember the news reports correctly, a main scene was in the school library (that could explain the card file) and the kids with rifles used them not only for swift killing but also for torture. And were some kids praying? Why the story would be written on fork handles, I have no idea....

Joy

Hi, interested oneironauts -

Ilkin is a new Forum participant who is strongly talented at lucid dreaming (most of her dreams are lucid, and until recently she assumed that was the norm). She also has precognitive dreams, more frequently (and more interesting) than mine. Under "Post Your Lucid Dreams - I'm a Flyer" she brought up this idea to me:

"Yesterday, very interesting idea passed from my mind. I thought, 'can I make an experiment myself, can I try to fly to anyone who I am mailing (like you)and try to see he/her. Or make this experiment with somebody at the same night and try to meet somewhere (for example over an island wich we will chose from a map)?'"

My reply was (in part),

"I think it would be a good experiment and definitely possible. I have a few times, on my own, intentionally flown out to look for someone and found some details of their surroundings or circumstance which they verified later. I don't think I was 'really there' in the physical world - just perceiving without regard to space or time. I've read of some people having success with experiments of intentionally meeting each other in a dream. All of my shared dreams (dreaming the same as someone else at the same time) have been accidental...."

Ilkin suggested we try, and I suggested we continue the conversation here.

Would anyone else like to join us, or shall we just see what happens between Ilkin and me?

Would anyone like to help set up the experiment or evaluate results?

Recently the Maui group tried for a shared dream with the idea of simultaneously posting whatever they dreamed on the predetermined night. As Ilkin is in Turkey and I'm in California, posting simultaneously would be a big time-zone challenge. (In fact I think we can assume it's unlikely we'll ever actually be dreaming at the same moment.)Maybe we could decide in advance to dedicate about a week to seeing if we can match some aspects of our dreams. We promise not to communicate with each other by any other means. We e-mail our dreams independently to two or three good trustworthy and rational volunteers who will read them and look for corresponding elements, and at the end of the week, each posts his or her assessment of the results.

Or we could just do it on our own - save up a week's worth of dream reports and send them to each other at the end of the week. Some of my dreams are rather personal... not sure I'd want them widely disseminated...

Other ideas?

Joy

As I was posting the above, this Forum's esteemed chief mentor Stephen LaBerge was leaving a message on my voice mail. So when I called back I mentioned this idea to him. First of all he cautioned against calling it an "experiment" - and I reminded him that "experiment" does have a popular meaning outside of its narrow scientific definition - but of course it really isn't going to be any kind of scientific study no matter what form it takes. Just us playing around... which fortunately we're free to do in this forum, despite owing its existence to the Lucidity Institute and their truly scientific endeavors.

However in the course of playing around, I'd like to come up with results that are thought-provoking to others as well as personally interesting to ourselves. More thoughts will be provoked if our results aren't too easily dismissed as total rubbish. In that spirit, Stephen's sending me some information on variously respectable past studies, explorations and playings-around along these lines, to help us plan what we might like to try and how we might like to evaluate our results.

Repeat disclaimer: This is not intended to be an LI-sponsored study nor a true study of any kind!

Personal perspective (nothing I haven't said in here a few times before): The physicists and mystics agree that space and time are illusory. The mystics are those who go on to say that the human mind is quite capable of seeing beyond those illusions, and who develop techniques (some modern, some centuries-old) for enhancing one's ability to do so. Stephen's sometimes colleague at Dream Camp, Alan Wallace, writes from the Buddhist perspective that a well-honed mind is the best instrument for exporing the mind's own potential. Part of that potential is to transcend the limitations imposed by the illusions of space and time. One of the most satisfying results is perceiving the extent to which we're all connected. I say that from personal experience, albeit mere tiny glimpses... just enough to verify to my own satisfaction that all those physicists and mystics are on the right track.

Science is going to have to really scramble to keep up with personal experience on this, but what a worthy investment! Hey, everyone, if you ever get a chance to contribute in any way to real research along these lines, please do so!

Joy

More personal perspective: My experiences and expectations are of dreaming dreams that share several elements, more than what chance would be expected to provide, which might include theme; similar scenes, objects, dialogue and/or action; emotional tone; color scheme....

I don't say it's impossible but I don't expect to meet someone in some kind of shared dream space in a manner much analogous to meeting them in the physical world, conversing, exchanging information and bringing back essentially identical memories. If anyone's done that I'd like to hear from them.

More Joy

my sister and I have had a similar dream where our mother, deceased for many years, returns to the family home--much to our surprise. She is still young in appearance, but empowered with a blossoming physical and emotional strength..an inner glow and sense of spiritual independence. We briefly discussed this dream about 15 years ago.

Hi Joy, If you are still planning a dream project with Ilkin, and you are looking for an independent dream report reader I'll be glad to offer my services. Edwin.

Hi everybody,

I am very new in dream search as Joy already told you and I know sometimes ignorance can couse people to dare to what they can't do or above their capacity. This is just a thought wich passed from my mind. Althought I can see how ignorant I am about dreams yet (after I read most of the massages here)I think we can't know anythink for sure before we try it. My English may not be so good, so I don't want anybody to misunderstand me, I am not speaking about a scientific experiment or something like that. First of all I don't know enough about dreams yet. I just wanted to try myself. Nobody had to participate it. It is just a thought yet and may be we have to discuss more. You all know more than me about dreams.

Ilkin

Hello Joy: Like Edwin, I'd like to offer my services as a dream report reader if you and Ilkin are going ahead with your project. If you get some success going, perhaps I'd like to join the "experiment" as well, as I have been surprised several times when telling a sister about a dream and finding out that she had the same or similar dream the same night. Joy, you always amaze me with your sense of direction and orientation in dreams. When I read your Dumpster Dream, I smiled as you flew southwest, then turned west, because it reminded me of lying on the floor in the great room at Kalani, listening to your fantastic, detailed dreams, most of which were filled with compass directions.

Ilkin, you know more about dreams than most, especially if you are having 2 to 6 lucid dreams every week! I applaud your desire to enter this dream project with Joy. She is a very powerful dreamer, and I wish you both great success. Can't wait for the results.

Although I did not know I was dreaming, there were 2 of me: (1]--the speaker: youthful, wendy faber, and 2]-- the listening observer,old wendy f yee)--in the dream...along with my young 1st husband (gordon"skip" young). As I made a quick dream-sketch upon awakening, I remembered to include from the dreamscene colorful, gentle vibrations or pulsations which were around the old, silent me, while I listened to the young couple arranging to "clear the air over coffee this Monday"

This dream happened right after a few days of forming daytime awareness of intent to move around ordinary time-space limitations--- in the daytime--- as much as possible included along with daily "regular-time" participation.

Am thinking because of the intense color and pulsations, dream may be in category of partially lucid?

Hi everyone,

At first I share this unsuccessfull try for my nosex experiment results only with Joy and Keelin. But later I decide that you should know either, while we are discussing this new experiment about meeting in our dreams. My unsuccessfull attemp may need to take in attention.

Last night I decided to begin my nosex experiment. I put my clock, pen and other things near me as said. But everything happened as below.

I slept for 14 hours (wich is out of my habit). I woke several times but I couln't get myself up and write the time and other things. When I woke up at last, before I get out of the bed and opened my eyes I counted 13 dreams with my fingers. As long as I remember there was; 1- a train accident, 2-fire on the toppics of my house and the neighbours, 3- riding a donkey, 4-police search a murder case, 5-frying eggplants, 6-a friends illness and my sorrow, 7-fire in the top floor again, pouring water and opening the windows for the wapour, 8-having a converstation with a friend about the world, 9- sprits in the house and telling them go, I am not believing them so they don't have anyting to do in this house. I don't remember the others.

• In the dreams 1,2,4,7,8 and 9 I was lucid.

• I ride in a train, a taxi, a donkey. I walked. But I didn't fly in any of them as I usually do in my lucid dreams.

*When I get up everbody in the house asked why I slept so long. I was not feeling as slept long and rested.

• Althought I remember I woke and sleep again many times I don't remember turning my right, left or back.

*This is the first time I ever saw sprits (I was saying my self and laughing them "come on, haunted eh, not my house even in my dream..") in my dream and I didn't felt any fear.

• This is the first time I have this much dream in one night.

• This is the first time I had this much lucid dream in one night and didn't fly in one of them.

• I was not remembering any dreams for the last 3 days.

I will try again but I thought you should know this unsuccessfull try. Especially while we are discussing about an experiment with Joy.

Ilkin

Hi Joy,

I will be following the experiment between you and Ilkin very closely. I see you are also interested in mysticism. Along with Lucid Dreaming, I am interested in meditation, and, like you, mystical experience. Do you have any favorite books on the subject? I have previously primarily been interested in the Early Christian mystical experience: I am currently especially interested in discovering Islamic Mysticism. Can either you or Ilkin recommend any especially good books, authors on this subject? Steve L.

P.S. This is my first Lucidity Inst. Forum posting. I am a new member. In the future, I shall direct non dream-research questions through a more appropriate L.I. forum.

Joy,

By the way I looked at the map and the most likely in the middle of us island is Flores island wich is one of the Asores islands in tne middle of Atlantic Ocean. It is really far away for both of us. But I don't think there is a limit of distance and time in dreams. Is it right?

Ilkin

And Edwin,

Thank you for your help and I will try to visit your dream in my dream. Tonight I will write your name in a paper, put it under my pillow and think about you before I go sleep.

Ilkin

And June,

Thank you for your offer of help, thinking to participate and giving coruage.

Ilkin

• Of course after my failure on my nosex experiment you may all think it will be useless to give a try. I can understand it.

Hi Stephen,

In fact I am a Muslim according to my ID but I am not a religious person. I rather believe only that there must be a creator power. I will try to find references about the subject. I myself don't know, but my mom says their are chapters also in Quran about dreams. You can also read about Sufi's. In fact as far as I know, Sufism is a special way and lifestyle to reach the God but they must also have things about dreams. The only thing I know from my elders wich they all made us to believe and we never do is; "it is a great sin to tell lies about dreams. To say that you saw something in your dream wich in fact you didn't see is a great sin and couses bad luck." But this rather like a family tradition than a religious one as "never have an unpaid right of a person on you". I will try to learn more for you.

Ilkin

Thanks Ilkin,

I'm not interested in Religious doctrine or dogma either, just the mystical experiences had by people in different cultures, and the Wisdom they have gained as a result. I know a little about mystical experiences from Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and now I want to learn the experiences and wisdom of Islamic mystics.

I lived 2 years in Persia. Sufi mysticism started there with the Shi'ite sect. I am buying a book on the Shi'ite Sufi, Ibn 'Arabi. Were there any Sunni Sufi's, or is that a contradiction in terms?

Steve L, (meditator, dreamer, and Mystic Wannabe!)

Stephen,

I found some books in my library but it is very hard for me to translate them to english. I looked the books and yes, there are Sunni Sufi's. Some of the books also shows Sufism has a strong back ground relation with Turks original religion of Shamanism before accepting Islam.

You may find some information in the International Association of Sufism web site.

Reading about historical perspectives of Mevlana Celaleddini Rumi, Hacý Bektashi Veli and Yunus Emre who lived and organized in Anatolia Turkey may also be helpfull.

Ilkin

Forgive me for being rude, but shouldn't discussion at this point revolve around exchanging poignant bits of personal information, or perhaps setting up a real-time schedule of posting the most significant waking thoughts you encounter each day, just so you guys can give yourself a chance of both conjuring and, far more importantly, recognizing the literal meeting of minds you seek?

Discussion of mysticism and offering anecdotal notes is certainly interesting, but I think the fabulous goal that Ilken and Joy have suggested will remain elusive if you become too philosophic about it.

I suggest that you keep things simple and very, very clear. Strangers have enough trouble meeting in the physical realm, where corporeal bodies do not tend to waft past, or through, each other with nary a hint that a meeting ever occurred: as Joy mentioned, you probably won't be meeting in any physical, 3-D manner. If it happens, you'll see it in the context of your individual dreams, and the connection will probably be very well hidden (stuff this cool always has to be difficult!). If you don't take some time to set up a pattern of familiarity, on a daily basis, you guys might achieve the meeting you desire, and never know it happened.

After the game has been played, successfully or not, is the time to discuss its spiritual or philosophical implications, not before. The intimate connection you are attempting will be driven by your personal vision ' try not to cloud your intentions with other people's published thoughts.

I hope this wasn't a downer. If it was, just ignore me"

Good luck!

Peter

Peter,

Stephens question is not releated to what we want to try. I never think about spiritual or philosophical implications. I didn't think about any kind of explination or prove anything. I just wanted to try my limits. Neither Joy nor I think any other way. We or I just wanted to try our dreams. If I/ we could reach to one another in a lucid and flying dream or not. It is this simple. I didn't try to discuss spiritual because I don't believe it in first. May be I can't explain myself because of my not so good English. I don't want to be misunderstood. But I think and wish most of you already understand what I mean. I am trying as open as I can. I already told you my ignorance about dreams compared to all of you.

Ilkin

Ilkin:

Your English is fine; I understood you. I just think that you and Joy presented something interesting, and I was watching the subject slowly fall by the wayside. I thought it would be good to bring it back to the forefront.

And please don't apologize for your ignorance! We're all wery ignorant of the as yet untapped wealth of knowledge and experience lucid dreaming might hold. We're all learning about it together. Enjoy your strong ability to dream, continue to use it to grow and contribute to the growth of everyone's understanding, and you will have nothing to apologize for!

Peter

Peter,

You were Not being rude: Point well taken! This should be a research forum, not a worship service. I really am fascinated by Lucid Dreaming and want to get my SuperNova 1.1 installed today, so I can start using it and actually start LEARNING something. ;) Your Friend, Steve L.

P.S. I will post again when I have something more appropriate to discuss...

P.P.S. Ilkin, thanks for the info - will follow it up on my own time.

Well, Peter, I assume we're just coming from different angles yet again. I just mentioned mysticism in the course of hoping to describe my perspective, basically that there's nothing unscientific about the idea of transcending space and time and in fact there are systems for doing so, based on a time-honored sort of observational science but with the observations only observable by the observer.

Ilkin accurately describes my intent as well as hers. And I think our intent was very simple and didn't involve an intimate meeting of minds or require any great personal familiarity with each other. I've had dream telepathy with people I barely knew and/or had never met and didn't even necessarily like (and had to back off fast when it was with guys who thought this meant there was something intimate going on!).

I wasn't planning on encountering Ilkin's soul in some ephemeral form out there somewhere and I have no need of being able to recognize it as such. I just wanted to see if we could intentionally have dreams that correspond in various elements beyond what might be expected by chance.

As it happens, Ilkin and I have been exchanging occasional e-mail for 2 or 3 weeks on the topic of lucid and psi dreams and I do like her and respect her very much as an intelligent, clear-thinking person and talented dreamer. For the purposes of an "experiment" like this, I'd actually think the less we communicated the better, so that any common dream elements would be less likely to have been generated by our knowledge of what's going on in each other's lives.

Still more Joy

'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion, which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed.'

Albert Einstein

Edwin,

I don't remember my dream very clearly but in my dream last night "I was calling your name and searching for you in a house I don't know where. I was feeling lost. Some of the walls were nearly white and there were some light coloured furniture, TV etc. in the room. A man was sitting on a coach his back turned to me. His hands was between his knees and his head was bend down. I asked myself if it was you but he didn't turn his face, look at me or answered me. Then I sensed a blond haired (I had a feeling that her hair is not natural blond) woman but I couldn't see her either."

May be I was really lost. As you know this is my first try of something like this.

Ilkin

Joy,

I had a strange dream last night. In my dream; "I was looking a detailed geographical map. Wich shows altitudes, depts, forests, mountans very detailed. On the map, I was seeing an island and it was written 'Island of Mann' near it. I was thinking where can it be and not to forget it is written with two n's, I should remember it is Mann not Man. I thought if I remember wrong when I wake up you may get angry with me".

In the morning I looked at the world maps in the house but I couldn't find an Island of Mann.

Ilkin

Dear Ilkin, Thank you for trying so hard to reach me in your dream. My dream recall this last week and a half is, however, at a very low ebb. I do not recall hearing or sensing you in my dream last night; all I remember I was carrying a bike on my shoulder through some mall, blocking peoples' way. But you know what, let us make a dream intention for say, coming saturday evening/night. Before falling asleep I'll concentrate on the few things I have come to know about you through the Forum; if you would do the same around the same time (the time difference between Istanbul and Tel Aviv is only an hour I think), then we can check coming Sunday whether we had a succesful experiment or not. Perhaps such an intention will stimulate, as a by-product, my lucidity, because I am depressingly low on LDs these last few weeks...Take care,and, hopefully see or sense you on Saturday night/Sunday morning, Edwin.

Joy:

Yes, truly different angles this time. Different planes, perhaps!

I misunderstood the nature of the experiment, and in doing so inserted my own expectations of what a meeting of dreamers would entail.

Since nothing other than your mind is active in dreams, and no other part of you is exploring the time-and-spaceless ether, I had to assume that it was Ilkin's mind (forgive me for mentioning soul ' I tend to drag my own mystical roots into my thoughts) you were interested in encountering. And yes, this encounter would probably be more a subtle shift in the images of your dream, and not some cloudy glowing Star Trek anomaly. However, since only your minds can connect, I don't see how you would recognize Ilkin alone among that universe of infinite potentials and infinite personalities without a set of her physical, personal, even spiritual traits at hand to reference. And I still believe that you would have to recognize her in the dream to make the connection real; even in your own mind.

In other words, you must know, during the dream, that you have met and are communing with Ilkin ' lucidity, I believe, may allow that knowledge, which is why I thought it a good idea for an experiment. However, if you don't have that conscious, shared connection, then you run the risk of comparing past dreams until two seem to have similarities, and then deciding you connected based on coincidental information (or, worse, agreeing to set up similar dreams, having them, and afterward calling that a connection ' which lends ironic wisdom to minimizing communication). That decision, rather than the experience itself, would be your proof that you connected.

That said, I'll step away now. Sorry to interrupt!

Peter

P.S. ' I don't dispute that you've had dream telepathy with people (I wasn't there, how could I?). I don't even dispute that it's possible (anecdotally, I regularly have dreams I call "other people's dreams" that I occasionally imagine might be accidental connections with other dreamers). But was your telepathy intentional, shared, and planned with those specific individuals? That's a pretty tall order, and hard to fill if you don't have a real connection with that particular "soul.' If you can do that, I generally sleep between midnight and 5 a.m. EST ' I would be honestly delighted by a visit from you!

;)

Hi everybody,

First of all, I couldn't understand what Peter really wanted to say (although I looked to dictinory for some words). Peter, please remember my mother language is not English and try to be a little more simple. I don't know if I am right but the important point here is that we don't know each other (blond, dark, tall, short etc.) we don't know the enviroments eachother lives in, we didn't see even each others photos. I don't understand why you ask how will we know each other. I see people I know everyday in my dreams ad can communicate with them manytimes. So it must be the point we don't know eachother in this event. We will not control each others ID's or passports and after we get convinced that she is Joy and I am Ilkin shake hands. Many times in my life just before calling a friend to tell her I saw her in my dream , phone ranged she told me she saw me in her dream. As far as I understand , what we are discussing here is; if as two people who don't know each other but has strong dream capacity can we meet during our dream at a certain place we will decide. Ofcourse the meeting will happen by the means of our minds and I am sure that if so we will know who we are meeting. Remember that sometimes when you don't see somebody for years you can't recognize him when you see. Or sometimes when see someone you have a feeling that you know her from somewhere. Deciding about a certain time and place is because of getting it easier. If we don't decide she can go or fly someother place and I can go another place while we are lucid. Or because we are living in different continents she may be at work while I will be sleeping. Please correct me if I understand wrong.

Ilkin

• I think, not knowing eachother will also prevent having a false dream or getting effected from what we know or whatever you call it.

Peter - Gotta go to work, don't have time to address our differing perspectives just now, will come back. Just wanted to say -

Ilkin - There is an Isle of Mann. I know of it because my friend Demila once asked if I could illustrate an article she intended to write about it. It's a very interesting place. In looking up on-line references I found that it's sometimes spelled Man with one N.

http://www.celticleague.org/isle_of_mann.html

http://www.gov.im/

Also, Ilkin, last night after reading here, I felt tired of all this debate and as I lay down to sleep I mentally invited you to visit in my dreams if you like. And I did dream of meeting you. Maybe it was "you," maybe not. Maybe you and I will end up doing our own "experiment" without regard to other people's ideas....

Joy

Edwin,

Can you tell me if there is a room in your house or blond women you know as I saw in my dream. Or you may be visiting somebody. I am asking this because, while I am dreaming you may not be asleep.

Ilkin

Hi, Ilkin, I see you're posting at the same moment as me despite our different time zones!

Late for work - see you later - Joy

Ilkin:

Again, you understood me well. It was I who did not understand. I was very excited because I thought you two suggested a wonderful experiment that could define a deeply meaningful use for lucidity. I did not realize you were just looking to have some fun.

I guess I held my expectations too high. I do that a lot. Sorry.

And I will not back down from my belief that if you do not know who you are looking for, where to look, or when to make the search, you will never find the person you seek. Not intentionally, anyway.

I hope my English was simple enough this time...

Peter

Edwin,

Sorry, I was readig your message again and I saw that you are living in Tel Aviv. I had to tell you a dream I had the previous day. I already sent it to a forum.

There is a young US citizen who is living and working in Turkey and he lived for a year with us because he didn't want to spent much and I wanted boys to speak English everyday.

In my dream; "He was in a hospital wich I know in Ankara, Turkey. There were beds and he was sitting on a bad. He was showing me two photos One belongs to a beautiful other belongs to an ugly young woman. It was night and there were children on the other beds. Some girl some boy. He was telling me that he choosed the ugly one. While I was looking at the pictures the hospital became in Israel. I became lucid and begin to look to the beds, children and think. Then the hospital became to be in Iraq. I think about the meanings of the symbols I saw and I interpreteated my dream during my dream and told my self "US will call it's citizens in the area back in a short time. World will face both the beautiful and the ugly even in the most faraway parts."

This dream may interest you living in Tel Aviv. The hospital was in Turkey, Israel and Iraq. An interesting triangle. The meanings of symbols in our culture are;

bed- way, going or coming somewhere child- getting a news girl child-getting an immidiate news boy child-getting an already happened news woman-world hospital-distress

Ilkin

*We can try what you wrote in your massage.

Joy,

I have to go to eat and speak with children. They are calling me. Everybody came home from school and work. I will be back in 3-4 hours and read your massege.

Ilkin

Joy, Please keep this interesting trial/exploration on this forum. I'm sure there are many who are curious and are enjoying it. Thanks. Keep exploring, Michael

Peter,

Thank you. Yes your English is simple enough this time.

I think there is a real misunderstanding (or understanding) between us. In fact we are not against your belief. I am writing again; WE WILL CHOOSE A PLACE, SET A TIME, DISCUSS FOR A TIME FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND WE WILL NOT DO IT JUST FOR FUN BUT TO TEST OUR LIMITS TOO.

Isn't this what you also say? We will know where to look, whom to look, when to look. And (if) when trying to do this, we will force our lucidity capacities to be successfull. It may not be a scientific experiment but serious enough to try.

Do you think we need to know each others appereances to recognize each other if we will meet by our minds? Can't minds recognize each other in a lucid dream? How can we know for sure?

I think there is not a big difference between us. If you ask me; we are saying the same. We can come to a common point if we discuss a little more. Don't you agree?

Best dreams. Ilkin

Good night (for here) Joy,

You wrote "Also, last night after reading here, I felt tired of all this debate and as I lay down to sleep I mentally invited you to visit in my dreams if you like. And I did dream of meeting you. Maybe it was "you," maybe not. Maybe you and I will end up doing our own "experiment" without regard to other people's ideas...."

You may have that dream at the same time I was having the dream about the Island of Mann and thinking that you may be angry with me if forgot the name when I woke up. This may be a beginning. We may be at least thinking in our dreams about each other at the same time. Maybe a connection had already begun in our dreams before we could decide to do it and how to do it. It made me very happy.

Ilkin

Ilkin:

I agree ' there is very little difference in our basic thoughts, I think, and I thank you for making more clear the degree to which you and Joy are communicating. I truly hope you find each other, out there!

And yes, as I mentioned earlier, I believe that appearance will have little to do with your meeting. That was my original concern: that, because appearance may mean nothing out there in dreamland, you will need another device for recognition. I hope that your apparently kindred spirits will be enough!

Good luck, and great dreams!

Peter

Ilkin, I don't know if I "met" you but it was nice to dream of meeting you! Here is what I wrote:

15 January 2002 0530 PST

I was dreaming about getting ready with my neice Iris to leave to visit my half-brother Khalil in Honduras ' she hadn't packed yet; we discussed whether to bring sleeping bags ' and Khalil (who is 70 years old) arrived on a motorcycle to pick us up. Gradually becoming aware that I was dreaming, I wondered if I was seeing something real, psychically; then from a viewpoint on the road I watched the motorcycle become a horse-drawn wagon, and thought, well, that can't be real! At the house (wherever it was), Khalil showed me a little wooden rack such as a peddler might carry, with dried fruit that I might choose to bring.

Then I was at some kind of meeting at the Chalfant Community Center - an undistinguished place about 20 miles from home - and a woman about my size but looking younger, with curly shoulder-length light brown or dark blonde hair, came in and began speaking to me in English with a foreign accent. I thought, "This must be Ilkin! She doesn't look anything like I'd guessed she might, but her voice sounds exactly like what I'd imagine.' After speaking for a few moments (I've forgotten what she said) she introduced herself as Ilkin. We hugged each other. I felt very pleased to meet her and to have recognized that it was she. I thought, to ask how she got here would be a silly question.

She asked, "What is this place?' Chalfant is a rather unattractive dusty little desert town near where I live and it's not what I would have chosen to show a visitor. I said, "This is Chalfant. It's... a strange place.' She said, "All this bare floor!' I thought she meant to refer to all the bare ground outside, then noticed that the floor was made of unpainted, unvarnished wooden boards.

We went outside and went for a walk in what turned out to be a different-looking place, an attractive little east-west trail through trees. We had a nice conversation. I can't remember now what we talked about.At one point as we were walking east she spoke in a language I didn't recognize. I asked if that was her native language and she said, no, it was another of the Middle Eastern languages. I asked what was her own language; she named it in that language ' startling me by speaking the word rather loudly and sharply - and then spoke a few phrases of it for me.

I realized I should wake and remember all of this but I was still sleepy and I drifted for a while, taking note of little bits of dream in case they related to Ilkin: a little folding wooden stepstool; a big roll of light brown carpet... I tried to remember what she was wearing and saw a mid-length dress, floral print on white fabric, but also a blouse and brown pants.

Does any of that mean anything to you? It means this much to me: I enjoyed spending dream-time with a dream-idea of you. I woke feeling very happy about it.

Eventually, yes, we will set up some kind of plan. I'm too tired this week! I need to sleep more, and write less!

Meanwhile, would you like to post some of your recent precognitive dreams for our curious forum friends? - some of the ones you told me about in e-mail, for instace, last week's dream predicting your injury and news of a death? People here are likely to be quite interested in dreams that came true in which you also knew that you were dreaming.

And thank you for explaining us to Peter!

Joy

Here, all lucid friends, is perhaps another small candle's worth of illumination. I wrote this in response to an encouraging e-mail from Ralf. I hope Ralf, Edwin and Ilkin will not object to reference to personal correspondence:

Edwin from the LI forum first received e-mail from Ilkin which he forwarded to me, as he felt uncertain how to respond. Here is this very intelligent, well-educated woman who has remarkable talents for lucid and psi dreaming, living in a culture that has given her no opportunity to discuss such matters rationally - apparently in Turkey there are very polarized atmospheres of modern scientific skepticism and ancient religious superstition. Her first e-mail was a description of her dream experiences and my response was assurance that other intelligent, rational people do have dreams like that, and value them. She's been so grateful to be able to discuss her dreams with me and have me respond in that manner.

My correspondence with Ilkin points out to me the importance of sharing and exploring these types of experience calmly, freely and openly, restricted by neither skepticism nor superstition, nor by the battle between the two. I feel that science has tremedous potential to validate psi phenomena for those who have no personal experience with them. I also feel that our explorations should not be entirely confined within the narrow boundaries of scientifically verifiable studies. We need to be free to go forward, perhaps inspiring others, but by no means bound by any obligation to prove anything to those who aren't moved to explore in that direction on their own.

Joy

Dear Ilkin, Writing so many messages a day, I wonder how you have left time for sleeping and dreaming'you asked me whether I recognized something about your dream in which you called out my name, in particular concerning the blond woman in the room. Well, my first reaction is to say "no'; I am divorced since a year and a half and I am living alone now, so no blond woman (unfortunately) in my room. On second thought, however, - but this is pure (tele)dream interpretation ' and triggered by what you said about the man in a chair not wanting to show his face and then you sensed the presence of a blond woman ' I remembered wat Jung wrote long ago about the male and female personae in each person. That is the female aspect(s) in every man and the male aspect(s) in every woman. Today we know that the degree of this male/female character is foremost pre-set by the X and Y chromosome composition of our DNA. In any case, I wondered whether, while calling my name, you had come across my female persona (the blond woman), while I, myself stayed in the back ground, apparently refusing even to show my face! Whatever the case might have been, I assume that my thinking about your dream in this way, spilled over in one of my non-LDs last night. I dreamed that somebody gave me a hat as a present. It seemed much too large for me. I put the hat on my head and wanted to check myself in the mirror. I was shocked not to see myself but a short-haired blond lady staring back at me from the mirror. I immediately realized that this is the stuff that can happen only in dreams, but instead of becoming lucid in the dream, I was only puzzled about it, because I was CONVINCED that I was awake. I then tried to "unmask" myself by litterally tearing away the skin of my (that is the blond woman's) head, in order to reveal my true self (-image). I started with my chin and although the skin immediately got off, I stopped because I realized that I would be left with a skinless face, still without being able to see myself, my own face. I then wake up. The lesson I learned from this is to not trust any images any more; not even during reality checks! As for the male / female confusion, Joy might start to see a pattern here, after I apparently mis-identified her on a photo as a man (My mistake kept some of the Forum's members giggeling for quiet a number of days). Perhaps I was unconsiously referring to Joy's Jungian, male persona? Just kidding. Sweet dreams to all, and Ilkin, I hope to sense your presence coming Saterday night/ Sunday early morning. PS. Ilkin, although totally coincidental, remember your other dream about the hospital in Israel? My ex-wife was a physician working in Tel Aviv's main hospital'

Hi everybody;

Joy,

My hair is just like you see curly, shoulder lenght and dark blonde. I have a wooden stepstool but it is not a folding one. I have a carpet and dress as you described. I have brown pants but don't wear so much. And you are right, we should set up a plan. We wrote too much this week.

Edwin,

I have to read your message a few times more to really understand it (because of my english). I am not sure I really understand what you mean. You may be right. And I may also sensed your ex wifes presence in your life (not living with you) because as I wrote I didn't see her I felt her. I will try to do it at Saturday night.

And Everybody,

As Joy suggested let me tell you a little about myself.I am a journalist but not working for the time beeing because of economic crisis in Turkey. I am making researches for my husband and friends. Making a family background research for myself, I got a permission to make search in Ottoman archives for a year. Shortly, I am enjoying freedom of searching what I want. Lately I had many disestar dreams and I decide to look internet about dreams.While I was searching in internet I saw Lucidity Institude's page and Edwin's massage in another topic giving his e-mail adress. I decide to write him and sent the message below. Then I recieved messegas from him and Joy and we begin corresponding. During this time I also entered some other web sites and forums. If you want to see them you can find in ASD and Dream Journal's discussion forums under the name of "Elif". Meanwhile I am reading (and writing) as much as I can to understand more about my dreams.

I was always kind of weird person all my life. I didn't believe God or any other creator for a long time (just for the last few years I am believing there is a creator), I never believed anything I can't or science can't prove but I always had experiences wich I can not explain. -I never wished bad for anyone but if someone hurt me always something bad happened in her/his life. -My dreams came true again and again -I always knew I am dreaming during my dream but thought that everybody has it, it is normal. -Whatever I wished always happened at the end (ex,12 years before I wisited an area where they will build houses and saw the one they made for buyers to see, I wished I could have one of them but I could't even dream about it because it was so expencive. I am living in one of them for 3 years now.)

Well, I don't know what to say more. I am a 44 years old normal woman, mother of twin 20 years old sons, who likes to read, write and explore. I had been a human rights activist all my life. Here is the first massage I sent to Edwin and how my dream research begin.

Hi,

I saw your mail on Lucidity Institude Forum. I am from Istanbul, Turkey.

For the last two weeks I am searching Internet but I still couldn't understand what my dreams really are.

I have at least 1, sometimes 2-3 dreams everynight. I know I am dreaming during my dreams. Speak with myself, control or interpreate my dreams. They mostly come true but not every of them important (like some relatives visit, my sons exam results etc..) I fly in the air, dive to to water very often if they mean anything. Especially fliying is very joyfull, I can direct myself by just thinking to any direction or anywhere. I rarely have nightmares (6-7 times all my life). Somethimes when I woke to go to WC, I try not to open my eyes very much and I go on dreaming the same dream during WC and after I turned back to my bed. 3 times in my life when I met somebody I began to talk about their lifes and future spontaniously. One of these happen on an air flight from Paris. The lady who sat near me found me two years later by phone and told me, everything I said happened in her life including her ex husbands death.

Some of my interesting dreams in the past are;

• When I was 18 (I am now 44) in my dream I was in a total darknes, somewhere like a cave and I could feel enemies around me. Suddenly with a bright light I heard a loud sound. It said "The first part of Quran sent from the sky to the land for you. Read it". I thought it was God. I mumbled some words and the darkness immidiately dissappeared and I found myself in total brightness." Next morning I asked my mom what is the first part of Quran says and she told me that it says "Read. Read with the name of the God"

• When I was 19 I was in Germany and I saw the results of my univercity exam and which univecity I will attend. Next morning my mom called from Turkey and the results were the same.

• When I was 20; during my sleep somebody shaked me strongly. I opened my eyes and there was my dead father standing by my bed. He told me "Be quick. Find your brother" I was very scared because I was totally awake when I saw him and he was so real. I run to my moms room and wake her. It was 3.30 at night. Because she knows my dreams comes true (she has the same ability too) we make coffee and begin to wait. At 6.00 my brother came home walking. He had a car accident at 3.30. Even the police couldn't belive how they could get out of the car alive.

-When I was 22 there was a military coup in Turkey. Like thousands of univercity students I was arrested and tortured too. In the prison I saw this dream; "I was walking down to the seaside from the Bosporus univercity. The trees were all green but the sea was all dried up. There where wreckes at the bottom. I thought everything will be very bad. Then suddenly water began to flow and I found myself in the water. An old friend of mine came from the waves, hold my hand and took me to the beautiful coast wich we have a summer house. This time I thought 'It will be very good after this bad days but what does this boy have to do in my dream. I did't see him for 2 years'." 4 weeks later I get out of the prison. Met that old friend at the summer house and we got married a year later. We still have a very rich marriage.

-I am a journalist and nearly 6-7 years before I made an interwiew with a bioenergist. Althought I am not religious or believe anything I don't know for sure she told me that I have a third eye and I closed it myself when I was 7 years old because I afraid of it. (I don't remember) She said she will open it and told me to make some meditations. I don't believe her but unfortunately my friends at at work did. I begin to make the meditations unbelivingly and some strange things begin to happen.

1- I begin to see the peoples auras.

2- One of the friend at work was cancer. Althought she was an atheist too she asked me to send her energy a night before the operation. That night I tried to produce a blue energy and send it to her. After the operation she said that a blue light ball entered to her room from the window and filled all the room. She is still very healty.

3- Another friends father had an accident. She also want me to sent energy to him. But while I tried, I felt that the blue light I was triying to send from my heart area strike to a black wall. I told her I couldn't do it, may be he didn't accept. 2 days later he died.

4- My cametrue dreams becames more and more. Once during an afternoon nap I saw my grandmother and she told me she came to take my father in law. 5 minutes after I woke up the phone rang and our uncle told his death.

5- One night I felt I was dying during my dream a very strong black energy was pouring towards me. I couln't move and breathe. But I was thinking as usually. I was avare from whom the energy was coming. I hold my self, tried to collect blue energy and trow the black enrgy to its origin. I was saying "I don't feel anything bad against you. Don'T do this. Live your own life and be happy". I hardly woke myself. This was like the rare nightmares I had. But I didn't see that person again. He get out of my life immidiately.

6- I had been dreamed about a place for a few times before. Last time they told me that it was near Nile and I was a princess in ancient Eigpt in one of my past lifes.

7 -It was becaming very uncomfortable to see something that night and know that it will happen the other day. At last when I have this coming dream I gave up meditation. That night I was sleeping with 15 year old my son. He was injured from his leg. "During my dream my brain was a computer base. There was a beeing in white clothes loading data to the computers. He/she was saying 'You will need and use these data in the future. You have a duty.' Everywhere was brilliant and there were lights on computers. I was also in my brain behind her/him. It was so natural beeing in my own brain as a computer base." In the morning my son was so afraid. He told me that when he woke up at night and tried to wake me up to want some water somebody hold him from behind and told him "Don't wake your mother. She is bussy now."

After this I called the bioenergist lady. She told to speak myself as I was speaking with somebody as "I don't want to see these. I am not ready" after and after. Slowly again I begin not to see the peoples auras, don't try to send energy to anybody again. My dreams go on to cometrue but not as much as that period, but as before.

• When I was 40 I saw in my dream that there will be an eartquake at 13th of September (After the first eartquake at 17 August) wich will kill thousands. I moved to my new house from my old apartment althought it was not finished yet a day before at 12th September. It really happened the other day. A 7.2 magnitude eartquake in Turkey.

• At September 10, a night before the September 11 attacks in US I saw this dream; "My neighbour whose daughter was in the Washington Univercity was recieving 3 packages full of dirt and her hairs was a mass. I thought in my dream that she will have very bad news and worry very much. But the news will have 3 parts and it will concern all the world. Next day while I was watching CNN (which was out of my habits at the day time) I saw the first attack to the first tower. I immidiately took a sooting medicine and run to her house. She heard the news from me and we watched everything together minute by minute while she was crying and triying to reach her daughter by phone.

• I saw the Etna's eruption in Italy 3 nights before in my dream.

-2 months ago I saw my cousin in great despair in my dream.10 days later welearned that she has a rare cancer. I went to stay in the hospital with her. And for the first time after 5-6 year I tried to send energy to her during the operation. She had a good operation and she has no metastasses.

• Last week or may be a little more before I saw another dream. "There were many war ships side by side along a harbour. The sky, the ships, everywhere was gray and misty. I said 'There will be a war between US and Iraq and my country will also engaged in it. But what about these ships/' to myself. Then I began to fly and watch the ships from the sky. There nobody around or on the ships. This time I said 'Everybody thinks the war will be on the land but the real danger will came from the sea'" Two days later I read in the news papers that the US wants to use Turkey's harbours in case of a war near the air bases.

There are many more examples. I really wish I could understand the nature of my dreams. There are so many descriptions on internet (lucid, cametrue, clairvoyance, etc) I can't understand the difference exactly. What do you think?

Thank you

Ilkin

Ilkin:

One word: Amazing!

Thanks for sharing!

Peter

DREAMLOGIC: ISLAND OF MAN?

Some say "The Island of Man exists." Others say not.

John Donne's words are apropos and most convincing: "No man is an island."

Ergo, there is no Island of Man. But equally obviously there is an "Island of Man."

At least that's what somebody told me in a dream. Do dream figures think in words?

QED

Ilkin, I couldn't stop chills running up and down my spine when I read the above account. Thanks for coming out with all of that, it takes alot of guts to throw that in the face of scientific speculation. I have much to say in response, and perhaps even a contribution that backs such experiences. However, I haven't the time at this moment!

Dream free.

Ilkin, I'm so happy to learn that your appearance is as I saw in my dream! That reinforces the feeling that I had in the dream and after I woke, of truly making a connection with you. And it was on the same night that you dreamed of me, though not at the same time as I'm sure the sun had already been up for a long time in Turkey. But if awareness can reach across a few thousand miles there's nothing to stop it from reaching across a few hours.

In imagining what you might look like I had generally guessed that you'd be somewhat dark like me, just because of being from the same general part of the world, I guess. (My grandparents came from the part of Syria that is now Lebanon - around 1900 when Turkey was ruling that area.) I was really surprised to see your actual appearance in my dream and truly delighted to find that I dreamed true, as I so much enjoyed being with you.

And thank you for sharing what you wrote here in the Forum. I have had one or two other people write to me privately describing precognitive or telepathic dreams, saying they're not sure they want to mention them in the Forum because they might not be taken seriously. I hope that more people will feel encouraged to share their psi experiences and eventually it will become apparent that it's just another human talent most people have, some more than others, and anyone can try to develop their intuition further - starting with acknowledging its existence and its value.

Warm regards to all,

Joy

Dear Ilkin, Herewith my account of our Saturday evening/early Sunday morning dream appointment/experiment/experience. Although I would have loved to perceive you in my dream, I didn't. On the other hand my dream was not 100% "as usual', although this is probably due to autosuggestion. As I told you, I have a dry spell as far as LDing is concerned the last couple of weeks. Yesterday before falling asleep I reminded myself a few times that I should look out for you in my dream tonight. Somewhere between 2:00a.m. and 3:00a.m. this morning (Sunday morning), I suddenly woke up (at least that is what I dreamed I was doing) and remembered to look out for you; my eyes were half closed (at last that is what I dreamed they were) and I saw the windows and window frames of my room (after really waking up, I realized that these were certainly not the windows of my room/house), but in black and white (not totally surprising in the middle of the night and nicely suggestive) and unclear, like when watching an unset snowy t.v. screen. I called out loudly twice "Edwin is calling Ilkin, Edwin is calling Ilkin" ("This is ground control to Major Tom-like'). At that very moment I felt a flow of energy through my body to the point of vibrating, very much like what happens to me when I suddenly realize in the middle of a dream that I am lucid. However, this time I certainly was not lucid, but this energetic sensation was the same. Calling out your name didn't change the imagery (still the same B/W windows), but for 3 or 4 horizontal lines moving up and down the windows. I then wake up. So, from the point of trying to meet you, it was a failure (but we can always repeat the experient, say, exactly a week from now), but at least a nice change anyway in my (boring)dream pattern of the last few weeks. Wishing everybody sweet dreams, Edwin.

Hi Joy,

I think it is not so important to me if others took me seriously because I am not trying to prove anyting. I can't even really understand the nature of my experiences so I have to share them either they took me seriously or not to help myself at least. I didn'T see you in my dreams for the last days but I had dreams that I should do this with you and try to set a place and time.

I had a bussy 3-4 days, I had my little twin nieces to look after and I had to help one of the boys with before his exam about visual arts in anciant civilizations. And the important my husband was having some difficulties in his business. I had an experience and a dream about him wich disturbed me. I want to share it;

I was reading a book named "Psychical Protection" and with his permission while reading I tried to create a protection baloon around my husband as described. Immidiately the other day he got a new proposition. He seems more relaxed for the last 3 days after this protecthing psychical baloon thing. (He doesn't belive this kind of things but he believes my weird ways after so many examples).

When everything was like above I had a dream the previous night. In my dream; "My husband was giving a piano recital (he dosn't know anything about piano) and he was a great performer. But his health was faling him. (I was becoming lucid knowing that he has no abilities in piano) And althought I told him not to give another recital because of his health he insist on giving. His healt was very poor but he got 1 milion $ for each recital. He didn't touch the money give it all to me to do what is needed. As beeing lucid; I payed all the checks. Gave money to certain people who needs. And kept only the 10% to us. Then come a third recital offer. Again beeing lucid I took him to a boat on the sea thinking it may be good to his health and help him to be more realist. But against all my efforts he was only caring about the money he will get for his sons future. All the time I was telling him his health is more important, he had 2 heart attacks and next time he will die but he didn't give any importance to my warnings. I was beginnig to think to divorce him not to see his death, getting his custody thinking he is loosing his mind with money or letting him die.

Before 3th recital begin he really began to have a new attack wich may couse death.Then I cought from his collar and began to make him follow me. I was thinging that I had to get the things in my hand. I begin to climb an upright metal ladder to get him out. I was pulling him from his collar with on of my hand behind me and holding a heavy pacage over my head with my other hand. It was unpossible to climb the leddar like that. Both hads full and trying not to loose my balance but because I was lucid I as holding it easiliy. I climbed the leddar, took us out of the recital room and found ourselves in a hospital. He health was gotten poorer and afraing he may be dead, I was searching help. But there was only a woman breadfasting a baby."

I am very uncomfortable of my dream. Because I think; 1- It may be an ordinary dream effected from what I think daytime. 2-It may be a symbollic dream. That may say that he will get his business to a total different way and be very successful. But he will begin to think all about money not caring even his health. And I have to interfere and get the things and responsibilities in my hand and influence him to the right direction. And we will get a new offer news in short time. 3- It may be a preocognative dream wich may came true.

Knowing how my dreams cometrue I feel very uncomfortable.

It may not be propper to share this dream in forum but I don't have time to send a private mail. So I beg forgiveness of the others. I will try not to do it again.

I will write moore soon.

Elif

Edwin,

I also tried to concantrete to see you but I had my little twin nieces (4 years old)to look after and I had to sleep trying to hear if they call. So it was not a comfortable night. Only thing I saw was "I was in an apartment (or a house I am not sure) wich is not familiar to me. I was watching the rooms and doors while as I am out of there and try to meterialize myself in, so I can look for what I came for. I was thinking "this may be Edwin's house surely not mine but I can't reach him as long as I can be metearilized. I tried and tried but everything got flue and I woke up by the twins before I can metearilize myself"

May be we can be more successfull next week.

Elif

As he doesn't actually play piano, I'd guess that it's symbolic. Do you ever try returning to a dream to ask for more information?

Joy

Absulutaly no. Is something like that possible? I had dreams as followig each other on the same subjects night after night before but I never tried to do it purposfully. This is the first time I hear this can be done with my will.

Ilkin

Dear Ilkin, the piano dream about your husband is a clear sign to me that certain gifts/talents can be sometimes a burden for a person. Take care, edwin