Hello Dean and others, I feel like I need to put a word in here. It is well documented that eastern cultures especially used LDs to strive for spiritual growth. The Tibetans used LDs to practice death (sleep was referred to as the little death) so that they would recognize their situation after they die and be able to break the endless cycle of reincarnation. The Taoists used meditation and Qigong to strive for enlightenment and it is well documented that their exercises led to the ability to "separate from the body". They used this ability to contact masters who could further lead them on their spiritual path. I personally believe that gaining skill in producing LDs is a natural part of spiritual growth.

There is an old Tibetan saying concerning lucid dreams that you may interested in as your ability grows.

"First make big things small, then make small things large. Next make many things few and then few things many".

This is considered a gate that the student must pass through concerning dream control. After you can do these things then you're ready to start to use your LDs for more spiritual purposes.

Thomas

Hi all

Has anybody actually managed to make any kind of contact with a dream character who may be one of these 'master' like characters?

I've read a few examples of people encountering characters in LD's who claim not to be actual dream characters for instance... Obviously, it's most likely that they are dream characters, and that the dreamers' vastly powerful mind is creating such illusionary discussions with them...

The masters that Thomas speaks of sound more like the voices of the subconsious embodied in the appearance of a dream character. A sort of wise character who knows the dreamer better than the dreamers' conscious mind...

Would be extremely interested to hear from anyone who has. I have yet to LD properly, but am confident in achieving this soon, and such things as meeting 'master' like characters I find a fascinating possibility.

Dean

Dean,

This has bee something I've been working toward for a while now. I am trying to tap into an unconscious level of understanding, and learn from it; I see the particular aspect that I'm trying to reach as a grandmother/matriarch figure.

This is one of the first dreams where the incubation was successful; I didnt' make it to lucidity, but there are many pre-lucid factors to this dream: http://www.livejournal.com/users/oakenking/94372.html#cutid1

This dream achieved a lucid conversation, but it was very brief - I woke feeling somewhat startled at the end. I wish I could have had a longer chat. http://www.livejournal.com/users/oakenking/95402.html#cutid1

Michael

Dean - I don't know if this response belongs in this thread, but your question reminded me of an experience I had in an ld that has always intrigued me. I took the hand of an older woman dream character to see what it felt like and was impressed at how like a real hand it felt. But she was also impressed at how real I felt! My conscius mind would never have imagined that, so I've always been left with this sense of, what if she was actually from this other plane, or something, and we came together in this dream? That she and her friends were looking into my world the way I was looking into theirs? My logical mind tells me that every bit of my dreams has been a product of my own mind. But the feeling from that dream of another world checking me out has never waned. And I really like that feeling. On the spiritual side, I had a non ld in which I could have gone up to a church-like area above me via some stairs, but I didn't because someone was already there and I didn't want to intrude. I could see the back of this person, and she looked like me. I have always wanted to go back there in an ld, but on the other hand, I have done nothing to try and make that happen. But it's another thing I'll never forget. Although I feel most dreams are creations of our minds, I also believe that they can also be an opportunity for beings from other planes to communicate with those of us on this one. I feel this has happened many, many times. But to be honest, I'm too afraid to seek such a thing right now. As Keelin says, sweet, wild dreams. Kate

Hello All, I have not yet firmed up my belief as to whether a dream is "totally" created by my own mind or not. However I can tell you that if it is solely my mind that does the creating then it would have to be true that my mind has, within it, an immense amount of experience and knowledge that I have not gained in this lifetime. Perhaps it is Jung's collective unconscious or perhaps it is the eastern belief that God sees himself through our eyes (i.e. everyone's mind comes from the same source) or perhaps it is various planes of existence that each have their own entities and that can, sometimes overlap each other. Whatever it is it is definitely something beyond our everyday experience.

Hopefully our personal LD development paths will lead us to a better understanding of this topic.

Thomas

Thomas,

I think we all have a responsiblity to simultaneously remain skeptical of anything that does not have sufficient proof (especially those things that we'd rather prefer were true) while keeping our minds open to stuff that has simply not been proven yet.

My approach to the possibility that dream content comes from outside our own heads tends toward the skeptical side. Just this week, more research has come in from Germany that links creativity to dreams. What they found is that dreams are the very place that our minds put together concepts that we have not considered. This would explain why, in our dreams, we experience things and create ideas that we don't recognize as coming from ourselves. These things have not become part of our identity yet.

With this in mind, it would require more evidence for me to accept that dreams have some external origin. (Not that I'm saying its impossible.)

Wow!

I step away for a couple of days and miss a most excellent thread. Interesting thoughts, folks, and thanks Gordon for the reality check.

As long as I'm here, I have one other point to interject: Our brains absorb millions of bits of information every waking day just by living through it. Look around the room you're in, and count the details - every one of them, to the last dust mote, has rolled through your brain's synapses at least once. The same goes for a walk down the street - the image of every stranger you pass goes through your senses at least once. Normally these images are sorted out and those that are not needed are quickly discarded so as not to clutter your consciousness with unwanted information. But, as our brains are not perfect machines, not everything is erased. These not quite "discarded" people can turn up in our dreams and, since you never remembered them consciously, you will see them as strangers. Combine this with your dreaming mind's imperfect (but very creative) ability to assemble recognizable dream scenes and personalities, and you can experience impossible environments peopled with strangers on a regular basis.

I've always held that meeting these strangers while lucid can teach a dreamer much about how his unconscious mind assembles reality in a dream, using resources about which he was consciously aware.

In other words: there is a whole lot going on in the unconscious mind. Though it is intriguing, and perhaps spiritually invigorating, to attribute this activity to outside powers, it might be best to first examine the sources closer to home, and then look toward what is currently termed supernatural. And what better tool to start with than lucidity? To experience a dream of transcendence while lucid is like being able to peek behind the curtain during the show, and see who is really pulling the strings!

That said, after examining those strings, exhausting the obvious possibilities, and exploring the uncharted realms of my minds unconscious creation, I for one would welcome the discovery of higher channels of communication between separate souls. But we really must dismiss the lesser rationales first"

Best of dreams,

Peter

P.S. But please don't let this interrupt the flow of your chat - I'm really enjoying it, and it's still connected with lucid dreaming.

Gordon, I agree with you in principle. I also tend to think that the mind creates the entire dream but I also recognize that some dreams have left me quite perplexed. Sometimes it seems that we can experience things in dreams even when there is no foundation for such an experience in our lives. For example, in a recent NLD I was not human but rather a jungle cat of some kind. In this dream I took off after some prey and ran at full sprint on all four legs. I can't relay in words how authentic the experience seemed. There was a naturalness to it all that seemed to be beyond what my mind could have created if my mind's knowlegde was soley that of Thomas the human. I also happen to think that flying is good example of an experience of which there is little basis in our everyday lives that could create such an authentic experience in our dreams. It seems plausible to me that the knowledge that one has access to in dreams goes significantly beyond that of everyday life and is not limited to just new physical sensations but could also include much more abstract kinds of knowledge.

Thomas

Hey, Peter, Thea here. Great points. In fact, it helped lay to rest a non-LD that sometimes recurs, that both intrigues and perplexes me. When I least expect it, I find myself dreaming that I'm listening to a musical. Sometimes on CD, sometimes on TV. Sometimes, I'm in the grocery store hanging out by the Muzak system and dancing to tunes from the show. (I actually had what I call the Musical Dream at Kalani when I was there a couple years ago, on the nights we were trying the natural lucidity medicine, or whatever it was.) Remember that control test? One night, when I got the cap with the active ingredient in it, I had "the Musical dream", again. And again. And again. Over the last several years. I thought it might have been God telling me I was supposed to write a musical. The thing that struck me about that darn dream was that the musical was never named, and that it was the most beautiful, romantic musical ever composed by man. I haven't had "the musical dream" since I watched "Annie" on TV with my kids. Before that, I'd been having it enough to be intriguing and annoying. I kept wondering, What the heck is this phantom musical called? Am I supposed to write a Broadway masterpiece, or what? Highly unlikely, since although I love the genre, I wouldn't know the first thing about writing one. Needless to say, it bothered me for some time. Then a few days later, "Annie" was on TV, and my family and I sat down to enjoy it. I haven't had the dream since, and I'm starting to miss it, like you would an old pal you haven't heard from for a dog's age. But the point you raise about the subconscious is valid here for sure, as I love the musical genre, have tons of them in my collection, and get a strong, special, almost Christmasy feeling when I listen to them. Hmm. Did these dreams serve two purposes? 1 My subcon took me to the theater to see a conglomerate of beautiful sounds and the emotions that I associate with Broadway musicals; 2 A great premonition about an upcoming event? This dream seems to straddle both the psychologically valid, and the otherworldly. Hmmm. Never achieved lucidity in any of the "musical dreams", a point which peeved me no end. I wanted so badly to find out, at least the name of the ruddy thing, and if I was supposed to write it. Well, I've started writing stories. Maybe someone else will make a musical out of my work, if it ever gets published--LOL. Thea

Hi, Thomas. You'd be surprised at what knowledge is collected in your mind that is quite natural. If you've ever daydreamed about flying as a littleboy, or watched any of a number of Disney movies, or sci-fi/fantasy, or read books, your brain is chuckfull of information gained from your waking life. True, that information is from books and movies and daydreams, maybe, but you've also seen birds in flight. Combine all that in the REM sleep bowl, and you have a dream which replicates, to the best of your knowledge and imagination, flying. Same for being a jungle cat. I myself have dreamed lucidly, and otherwise, of experiences I have not had, word for word as it were, in waking life. Once, I dreamed I went to Heaven. However, that dream was only what I imagined Heaven might be like. I shook Jesus' hand, touched an angel's wing, etc., but never did I see color, or perceive dream characters as sighted people do, by sight. Why? Because as imaginative as my brain is, it cannot produce sight. I have no concept of sight in my waking life. When I read a book that names the colors of things, those are just words in a foreign language to me. So, one would think, if we could access the Jungian collective unconscious, or if our dreams were from outside ourselves, one would think a person born completely blind would be able to access color--or at least light and dark. I have not. Not to say the the four senses I do have access to aren't quite enjoyable and strong in my dreams. They are quite vivid, in fact. But always, there is some reference to some experience in my waking life.

Dear Thea, While talking about Heaven, your message was actually very down-to-earth. I know your words about non-sighting in your own dreams were not intended as a caveat but it is helpful that you made at least me realize once more that some principals that seemingly (un)rule our dreamworld are still rooted in our own physiological selves here on earth. Sweet dreams and try to catch and record that musical of yours. Edwin

Thanks, Edwin, for the post. I'm contemplating hitting that dreamland trail pretty soon here, even though it's still pretty early. Not quite eight pm here in HI. Will see if I can't get lucid and find out more about that nutty musical.

Hi all!

Extremely exciting and interesting thread going on here. It does indeed seem to intrigue many people, myself included.

Wanted to pop another possibility in, regarding the appearance of 'other-wordly' characters in dreams. I haven't seen one yet, but I can say now that I have had one (1) Lucid Dream! So, happily, I feel at least qualified to write here with confidence now.

Re the other wordly characters, and I know that I'm pushing the boat out a bit here - but is it not possible that the state of being awake whilst dreaming could be comparable to deep meditation, a state in which many mediums and other such paranormal investigators claim to go when contacting higher beings? I have read many paranormal investigators claiming that ghosts and such like are not malevolent spirits, but merely spirits living on a different plane, existing at a different level (some even say vibrating at a different frequency). If the human mind is, when dreaming / Lucid Dreaming, also on this different plane, then perhaps it might be easier for closer contact with higher beings etc...

This is starting to move away from the main thread, Dreams of Transcendence, but... is it?

Personally, I go with the idea that the human mind contains so much information, gathered from a lifetime's experience, that is is capable of creating any visual and sensory experience. The dreamer conjurs the scene / event, and any gaps in knowledge are filled in, so to speak, by the subconscious mind and its vast pool of information.

Can't wait to have more LD's and explore this, along with the other eight million things I want to do

Great dreams to all,

Dean

Thea,

You bring up a very interesting point. Before I respond to your comments let me first tell you that I am only in the process of firming up my own beliefs about the spiritual side of life and of LDs as well. However, I no longer discount anything as impossible. With that said let me mention some of things that I have read about the Tibetans. First of all they have a deep belief in reincarnation. Their spiritual leader, the Dali Lama, is believed to be continually reincarnated after his death into a pre-determined baby from a pre-determined set of parents. This allows him to continue to lead his people for thousands of years. Next the Tibetans believe that when a soul first enters the new baby the previous life appears like a dream in which they have just awakened from. As one grows the dream fades. Next, they also believe that one can access past lives through the world of lucid dreaming.

So if we assume that the Tibetans are right (some very big "ifs") then it may be possible for you, not only to see in your dreams but also to understand what you see. Yes this is a lot of speculation but I think that it warrants an LD experiment, if you're interested to do so. In an upcoming LD ask try to ask something like, "Let me see as I once did and understand as I have before" and see if anything happens. Who knows?

Here's to pushing the limits. Thomas

Hi, My name is Eve and I'm new to this discussion list. I use lucid dreaming now to help my Tibetan Dream Yoga practice. What helped me in lucid dreams was reciting a mantra to try and invoke the presence of a diety like Tara the female Buddha. I also tried using another simple mantra, Namo Buddaya. With each mantra a different dream scene or teacher appeared to show me things or answer questions I had. Most anwers were short or symbolic. The diety did not appear as in a Tibetan thanka or picture--since my visualization ability is poor. Tara appeared as a beautiful Western woman in a light pink business suit, platinum hair, blue eyes, almost like a Mary Kay business woman! Other times a Lama I know who I received empowerments from showed up in the dreamscape. My ability to transform dream images was unsuccessful until I asked for Tara's help and then I was able to do simple dream object transformations. I haven't as yet been able to reproduce the Buddhas image like in a visulaization/meditation I do, but I have on previous occasions been able to reporduce musical songs that my subconscious mind already has memorized.( the music plays without me thinking or creating it, I hear it with no effort on my part perfectly) If anyone has an helpful methods of reproducing images in dreams, bringing them to life, I'm eager to listen and learn.

Sincerely,

Eve

Hi Eve,

Thanks for sharing your experience in seeking spiritual guidance through lucid dreaming. If you haven't already done so, you might be interested to read some of the published work of Dr. Fariba Bogzaran regarding her studies on experiencing the Divine in the lucid dream state. She is also a phenomenal artist who impressively captures the spirit of exploring inner realms.

http://www.bogzaran.com/index.htm http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/experien.htm

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin