Ralf, you are quite right as usual. Without a shred of pretentiousness (quite the reverse - I sometimes regret it sharply), I know myself to be an artist - that is one who is endowed with too much allusive thought. This stuff is fine for imaginary things, and has proved useful to non-creative corporations in the form of output of advertising concepts, but asking me to keep proper track of money affairs (ie bookeeping and regular tax reporting, etc) is like asking a snake to ride a bike.

Ergo: I must concentrate more on such horrible things.

Funny you should say that, Mary. I've got something cooking in the ramshackle kitchen of my mind that might just turn into a sci-fi 'movie' treatment. Know any influential producers?

This is unforgivably off-subject (well, it isn't really), so I'll report a semi-lucid dream. I was napping in a bedroom of a very large house I was quite familiar with - dosing and thinking about LD, and remembering bits of dreams I was having intermittently. Then I heard the person downstairs start to come up, and knew she was coming to wake me up (I don't know who she was, but in the dream I did). I heard the door open and footsteps cross the floor, then the sheets at the bottom of the bed were moved, and my feet were tickled. I opened my eyes and instantly got up out of bed, intending to go downstairs and get on with life. Boing - I found myself in a completely different place: my apartment in Sydney, and real life.

Isn't it amazing that some dreams incorporate a fully-detailed other life?

Dear Mary & Alan, et al,

Mary:

Thank you for the referral to the Keirsey personality profile. That's the very same one LI asks all of their participants to fill out during the Dreaming & Awakening (aka: Dream camp) workshops -- and it's always interesting to see what type of folks are attracted to the program.

Stephen tells me that the findings of those workshops are consistent with the results found during a 1995 survey of Lucidity Institute membership, in which 157 dreamers sent in their profiles. The results of the survey were published in the Winter 1995 issue of NightLight. The following quote is from the article titled "Temperament and Lucid Dreaming" by Leslie Phillips (Bevington):

. "The most notable findings of this study are, as expected, related to Introversion and Intuition dimensions of temperament. Approximately twice as many Lucidity Institute subjects are introverts in proportion to the general population. There are approximately three times as many intuitive Lucidity Institute subjects as intuitives in the general population. The fact that Lucidity Institute subjects in this study showed significantly greater proportions of intuitives and introverts than the general US population is probably related to the fact that intuitives and introverts are more likely to he drawm to self-exploration and experiences of inner awareness such as those to be found in dreams and lucid dreams. . The only significant differences in type in regard to lucid dreaming ability were that NFs had slightly more lucid dreams and had more confidence in their lucid dreaming ability than SJs. INPs were also the most likely to experience fantasy absorption, and NTs were almost twice as likely to have a WILD than NFs. Ps experienced a greater incidence of sleep paralysis than Js."

Another ENFP, Keelin

Keelin, Thanks for posting the findings concerning the Keirsey profiles. Though I am an ENFP, I do have a lot of I and T. I find myself wishing that I had more S and J (of which I seem very deficient)--I have been trying to develop such. I have the idea that were I more S and J, I would use a journal more, meditate more regularly, and be more organized.

Alan has told us that he is also an ENFP. Is there anyone else here on the forum who has taken the profile and would be willing to share what type they came out as? Happy dreaming.

Hi,

I took the Keirsey last August and came out to be, if I remember correctly, iNPt, or thereabouts. They labelled me a "master mind" then, (actually I enjoy that game) but I took the summary thingy again last week and came out then to be a "guardian," which I take to be a nice word for "conservative." I didn't want to pay them $10 to get the details.

The difference might be that last August I answered every question, even when the choices offered didn't make good sense. This time I did not answer those, and maybe that is a sign of being in the box. Anyway, I'll see if I can get back to the higher profile by answering everything...

Chris

Aloha,

This lucid dream/OBE happened to me about 6 years ago.

I was having surgery in the afternoon. And I was under anesthesia for about 10 hours. The surgery went smoothly the whole way, so it wasn't a near death experience.

So, the first thing I realize is that somebody is helping me leave my body, I'm floating upwards, and as I looked down at my right hand, I could see that I was holding a man's hand, I could also see that he was wearing a robe of some sort. I could tell just by looking at it that it was made out of pure cotton. Then I saw his bare feet, which also looked to me as a man's feet, cause I coud see the hair on his lower calves a little. I could not look up at this being/person because he was too bright to look at. I could only look up to about his hip, anything past that was blinding. This being held my hand and we started to walk together, nothing was said verbally, all the communciation, or feelings I got were telepathic. The thoughts or words were being put into my mind. I thought to myself how easy and convenient communicating like this was. Very relaxing, like there was nothing to hide from each other. A sensing/knowing/feeling of total trust.

So, I started walking with this guy, I'm not sure who he was, maybe my father, maybe an angel, maybe God...?? I can't say for certain. All around me was nothing but whiteness as far as I could see, no landscape, colors, no other people, that I could tell anyways. We then started to walk on these bent rays of white light. They stretched across, what I'm assuming was the sky, like the way a rainbow curves, and we continued to walk these strange rays of light for what seemed to be at least 10 miles, if not more. Again, nothing was said verbally, everything was just understood. The whole time I was walking with this being all I could think about was how happy, joyful, fulfilled I felt. As far as I was concerned, this was it, I was home , I was were I was suppossed to be, and that was that. I felt that I belonged to this place, I was so comfortable, like no other feeling of being content that I have ever felt in my life. This was it, I didn't need to look any further for anything else ever again. I felt what God's unconditional love is. I was kind of surprised to find out that this 'unconditional love' was not a sexual based love at all, it wasn't even about that at all, not even close. It was so pure and so reasurring, so peaceful, blissful, I can't even find all the right words to describe this feeling. What I can say, according to my life experiences on earth so far is that my parents gave me all of the love they could possibly give me as humans, when I was growing up, but in no way did their love come even close to that of the love I was receiving from this experience at the time! And as I was still walking with this being, I knew in my heart that it was not possible to find another human on earth, that could ever give this intense kind of love, to no one. And for a fleeting instant I might have felt a tiny bit sad, but I knew instinctively inside of me that I would return to this love again sometime and that it would always be there waiting for me, and I knew this and I didn't have the slightest bit of worry or anxiety of it not being there. Then at the end of my walk with this being, for the first time during the whole experience the being said to me in a man's voice, "Okay Paula I'll see you later." And I said verbally, "ok, bye."

The next thing I knew I was opening my eyes in the recovery room and I just started to cry uncontrollably, I was so sad, furious, mad, totally pissed off that I was back here on earth. I felt a little bit like I had been betrayed or something. I felt like a baby who is breast feeding and the mother takes away her nipple! I was feeling totally like made to go or be somewhere that I did not want to be! After I settled down a little from crying I began to notice a pain in my body, then I realized it was my feet! I told my girlfriend that it felt like my feet were on fire and to hurry up and rub or massage my feet, I couldn't stand it much longer! I was like almost yelling/shouting for her to hurry, my feet were burning up! It was so weird the vibe in the hospital room at that moment, all the nurses were like weirded out on me, I wasn't trying to freak anybody out or be rude, so the nurses like all left and it was just me and my girlfriend and when my girlfriend pulled back the hospital sheets from my feet she freaked out! The bottoms of my feet were bright red and hot to the touch! I then explained to here that it was probably from the 10 mile hike I had just taken on these white rays of light! I think I brought it back over from some other dimension or something. Maybe it was meant to be like that so I would realize that it was a real experience and I didn't just dream all of it! Proof! Evidence! I'm the type of person who is skeptical at/about a lot of things, expecially when I started to first have these experiences!

About a week later, I had a hunch as to what these white rays actually were. So, I went over to UH library and sure enough, in more than a dozen books that I found on the Aurora borealis, were pictures, sketches, drawings of the exact rays of white light that I had been walking on with that being! I had been walking on the Aurora Borealis!

Totally cool!

Aloha & Mahalo,

Aurora

ox

Dear Oneironauts,

After becoming lucid (trigger unrecalled), I ask a dream character if he's willing to engage in sexual activity. His response is encouraging and our interaction is very pleasurable and vivid. Soon after, the dream begins to fade and I use hand rubbing to prolong the state. Once stable, I recall the recent Forum post regarding the use of the phrase "Increase lucidity x 1,000". I realize I am skeptical without ever having even tried it, so say it aloud. The visual field is filled with text, and while there is a minor visual "blip" and the text becomes slightly sharper (I suspect due to expectation), I note that lucidity is not enhanced. I don't feel any clearer about the fact that I am dreaming than I did before uttering the phrase.

Recalling the pleasurable episode prior to this experiment, I consider a repeat, but then think, "I've already had that experience." The wording of this thought amuses me as I recall Stephen LaBerge's lucid dream in which he chooses to pass up an attractive hitchhiker in exchange for what leads to a transcendent experience.

And now, in front of me, there sits a new dream character in the form of a little (Yoda-sized), translucent, live Buddha. He appears to be made of something akin to soft moonlight. Again I'm amused as I recall the little, white, Buddha statuette that a friend left in the backseat of my car recently. [I had not found her gift until a few days after her visit and his sudden appearance had demanded a reality check. I remember wondering, "When did Buddha take up hitchhiking?"] He is smiling calmly, the essence of serenity, and his right eye is closed as if in a wink. I admit to this little Buddha that I'm a wee bit embarrassed about all the hitchhikers I've occasionally picked up in my lucid dreams over the years and that I'm now wanting, once again, to explore my higher inner potential. He seems slightly humored by this and his smile widens as he opens his winking eye.

One of the things I found interesting about this dream is that I had been so obviously influenced by recent waking world events and recollections. In addition to those mentioned within the dream, there was also a phrase from a recent post by Alan Tunbridge which concerned connecting with one's inner self (see: Miscellaneous: Dream Journal Software Reviews, Thursday, June 07, 2001) that had caught my attention.

Taken out of context here, the phrase was "you will surely dream of meeting "it" just as you imagine". These words had reminded me immediately of Dr. Fariba Bogzaran's research which explored seeking the Divine through lucid dreaming. Her conclusions (referred to in EWLD) suggest that dreamers" experiences, in this regard, are affected by both expectation and method of approach. Those who envision the Divine in the form of a personified deity usually encounter a representation that matches their pre-conceived images. In contrast, those whose faith or spiritual practice does not embrace a personified deity, tend to dream accordingly. And while those who actively "seek the highest" often find the form of divinity they expect, dreamers who adopt a more passive approach, "surrendering to Divine Will", may have more unexpected results.

I am not a practicing Buddhist, and therefore would not have expected the appearance of a deity in the form of Buddha. I do, however, hold an association of Buddhism with the seeking of higher inner potential. While this connection, combined with past waking events and reflections, can easily explain the appearance of Buddha in my dream, it nonetheless delights me to have had this surprise visitor with his unpredictable response.

May we all dream divinely, Keelin

Keelin,

Congratulations on the lovely LD. I'm green.

Theoretically speaking (it's all I can do right now because I haven't had an LD since Maui), we may have to communicate with ourselves in the LD arena via winking Buddhas and the like while our level of lucidity remains relatively low.

It seems to me that if lucidity is a graded scale ascending from zero (a non-lucid dream) to, say, ten (as lucid as anyone can be), then my most memorable LDs are probably rated around......five? In which case the command 'increase lucidity 1000 times', if actually fulfilled, would yield quite astonishing results :-)

Meanwhile, in my LD deprived state, I'd be overjoyed to just pick up a hitchhiker.......any hitchhiker would do....:-(

Lang Nuderabit

Nice dream, Keelin. But why did he wink? Didn't he know the game was over? I would have given him a butterfly.

Alan, how do you imagine a higher level communication with a (somehow separate, higher) Self, that doesn't exist? And if it is, that we communicate simply with ourselves and there are no differences between self and ego, how can something previous unconscious come to mind? How can it be at all? Aren't we caught in our universe of symbols in anyway? And isn't it wrong to refer to any image, regardless in a dream or waking life? The highest lucidity on your scale would then be a state without images, without content or form and without yourself, but "who is the One" to perceive this? Maybe this state means just "Being" or "being connected directly". Are you the One? Every image is a construction, is between you and what reality may be. Is a creation of your brain to somehow symbolise what's going on. The image in itself is an expression of a process that divides inner and outer reality, Ego and Non - Ego although there is no essential dividing line. Every dividing line is arbitrary. So it seems from your point of view. And you want to have as few symbols as possible to have a true interaction with reality. But I think, it is like Mary said, that a "personal" relationship to my Self is fruitful. There lies a power in identifying with Buddha or Jesus or Ghandi. Or with something like "my" Self, that has no end, no limitations, that embraces everything and everyone, that is everything and everyone. I agree, that it is a delicate distinction talking of dreams as "language of the gods" or "language of the unconscious." My mind tends to the latter, but my emotions tend to the first (sometimes). What a difference: To say: "You will be like gods" or "You will master the unconscious". Although both statements can mean the same, the first one has a much deeper impact on me. I, too, don't want this "putative curriculum" anymore. But how can I say "no, this is unreal", if it takes me higher? I know, you don't like this woo woo position. But it is like I have posted in another thread: I feel somewhat woo woo.

If you meet your Self as a hitchhiker, become aware and just pick yourself up.

Yours Ralf

P.S. Instead of discussing, I'd rather like to embrace you!!

Ralf,

Right now, I'd be happy to encounter any symbol of 'higher self' - including Jackal-headed Thoth. It's been too long since I've had any visitor of that kind. I get the feeling that my unconscious (or whatever you choose to call the source of LD symbols) is not much affected by my theorising, anyway. Experience shows that my goal-seeking waking mind is usually surprised and baffled by the next LD 'performance' no matter how determined I am to gain more control over it. Maybe we should just try to get used to the fact that, against all logic and laws of physics, the inside really is bigger than the outside.

Your brotherly embrace is reciprocated.

Oh, my Lana!

I love your bigger insight. ?;-0

Yours

Arl F. Akderpen

P.S. I'm through with "Atomised". I didn't find it that "funny", as one of the book cover "advertisements" promised. I found it dark and ill, just like life and men often are. But thrilling enough to keep me reading it through until to the last word.

Kalindi 5/6/98 "Nothing Matters!"

[The following is a lucid dream that my girlfriend, Kalindi, had several years ago. She died last summer, and I found this report when I was going through her things. I found it written out on some post-it notes, in between the pages of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreams by LaBerge and Rheingold - specifically, in the chapter "Life is a Dream: Intimations of a Wider World." She and I met through our mutual interest in lucid dreams, so it seems very appropriate for me to have found this comforting and fascinating dream report following her death.]

I wake up and I am sitting in a bed in the middle of somewhere that looks similar to the entrance of the library, but everything is decorated in soft shades of pink and purple. I realize that I'm dreaming and I jump out of bed ready to leap out of my body into that blissful expansive feeling. Then I notice this strange little man. He's only about as tall as I am and he has the face of a fool - sort of distorted or deformed. I can tell he knows more than he seems to, his eyes are clear and sparkle like jewels.

"This isn't real!" I tell him. "It's only a dream, we can fly anywhere we want to."

"Are you sure this is a dream?" he asks, unconvinced.

"Of course it's a dream, I did a state test and the letters changed."

"Try it again, I want to see this."

"Sure," I reply, and I look at a sign, and then away, and then back...but it doesn't change. It continues to read, "Nothing is Real". "Umm, it didn't change," I tell him.

"Then why do you think this is a dream?" he says, grinning.

"Because I can fly, see?" And I start to float in the air. You can't fly in real life.

"What is this obsession with 'reality'?"

"I don't know," I say. "I guess it's important for me to know what's real and what is a dream."

He laughs hard. "And how do you define 'reality'?"

"Something that exists?" I say, confused.

"Exists to who? To you? To me? To someone else? To God? Does God exist?"

I sit down on the edge of the bed. "It's hard to think cognitively in a dream."

"There you go again. How do you know this is a dream? Did you create all of this? Did you create me? Am I you? Or are you me? Am I dreaming you? Maybe this is all my dream, and when I wake up, you will cease to exist." I sigh and he laughs again, throwing his head back and closing his mischevious, glittering eyes. I slump my shoulders forward depressed. "Don't worry," he soothes, these are all just different planes of reality."

"So when you die, do all your realities die too?"

"Do you mean like a plane crash?" We both laugh at that one. "No, you just move on to different planes of reality."

"Are you sure we don't just cease to exist?"

"Are you afraid of death?" he asks.

"No."

"Then why do you ask?"

"I'm just curious."

"What will you care if I'm right or wrong? If you ceased to exist, then nothing would matter because you wouldn't exist."

"I guess you're right," I respond.

"Nothing matters," he says, grinning. And then he skips away like a child. "Nothing matters! Nothing matters! Nothing matters!"

Hi, Adastra. Thankyou for letting us read that amazing dream. Did you share it because it touches on the current conversation on the misc. lucids site, or is that just a coincidence? Happy lucids, Kate

Adastra,

A beautiful dream, beautifully told. Heartfelt thanks to you and to Kalindi wherever she now may dream.

Joy

Adastra: How did she die?

Thanks, Kate, Joy for the praise - I hope that Kalindi gets that wherever (if anywhere) she is now.

I have not been following the discussions here lately, I posted it for internal reasons - it was time. If it corresponds to an ongoing discussion that's cool.

To answer your question, Alan: Kalindi committed suicide by taking an overdose of migraine medication. She went to sleep forever while leaning against a tree surrounded by the beauty of nature, which she dearly loved.

She drastically changed my life twice - once with the last two years of her life, during which our worldlines wrapped around and intersected each other in profound and fascinating ways; and once with her tragic, inconceivable death by her own hand.

OM TARA TU TARE TURE SVAHA

Disintegration of the self

I entered into a state of dream paralysis and felt a weird movement of spiraling. It began at my feet and spiraled upward in a clockwise direction. It felt as if this force gathered up my body and dissolved it. As it spun higher and higher my body disintegrated. I felt then that I had no body. My body was a composition of energy that resembled small filaments of light. At that moment of the dream, when I realized my body was no more, I felt a force begin to pull at that composition of fibers. I was being stretched into a million directions at once. My body (if you can call it that) was composed of tiny beams of light that were aware of them selves much as I was aware of the composition of the lights into a coherent whole. Unfortunately at the moment that coherent whole was being pulled apart by some indescribable force, a magnetic pull. Fearing to go on with this dream, I awoke. I felt certain that if I did not wake up, my awareness would dissolve under the pressure of that force, resulting in my death.

#2

I am lying on my bed and realize that I am dreaming. A short humanoid field of energy is standing next to the bed as if watching me. I see that an energy field surrounds me. I feel a stab on my center, just underneath my belly button. I see it as blackness a dagger shaped spike. A ball of energy comes up from my feet, in the middle of my body and energy. It is white and intense. As it moves up my middle, my body dissolves into a million particles of bluish white energy. At this point I experience the most tremendous split perception. I am each individual particle of light, I am alive and aware in perhaps thousands or millions of different scenarios. Each one is engaged in action, activity. It is the focus on activity that keeps them separate. At this point I focus totally on my normal self and wake up. I am exhilarated and charged with energy for the next few days.

This experience was startling to me. I had not realized that the mind could focus on so many perspectives at one time. It was an overwhelming dream. I realized that perhaps this was happening all the time in my consciousness, and I was just not aware of it. As always awareness was key and the potentials of perception were staggering to me. It was as if I realized that in ordinary, average life, I was but one tiny particle of existence. There was an immensity of activity everywhere, all around me, all the time and I just wasn't conscious of it.

Hi Ryan, Thank you for sharing your bright, spiralling, bluish white energy dreams! Fascinating! And just the kind we're looking for, so please read on...

Dear Oneironauts,

In the first phase of a project aimed at inducing transcendent lucid dreams, Lucidity Institute is seeking examples in which you transcended your usual sense of identity. Please email a complete report of any such dreams you may have had, with a description of how you or your view of life changed as a result. Also please include your age, sex, and occupation. Email accounts to: transcendent@lucidity.com

For those of you who have previously posted such dreams to this topic board, we would greatly appreciate your sending a copy with additional commentary and information as requested to the address above.

May we all dream beyond the boundaries! Keelin

Hi, Ryan. Cosmic and amazing. Thanks. Kate

Hey no problem I am currently trying to gather up all my "transcendent" dreams and decide how they have effected me. Some are in my head and some are chicken scratch in various notebooks I had lying around for years. Also I have not had one of those dreams where I dissolved into a coherent whole in a long time and I am trying to figure out how I did it in the first place so I can do it again. They seemed quite spontaneous , but if anyone has an idea how to induce such a state at will, let me know please. I used to think it was the intent of an abstract idea of total freedom(of awareness), but when I verbally attempted to do this in a dream, it failed and I woke up.

Dear Lucid Dreamers,

This is my first post. I have a few lucid dreams that I remember each year, more frequently when I do reality checks. I asked a teacher of Tibetan Buddhist meditation how I could use lucid dreams as a spiritual practice. It had been suggested to me many years before that I could try meditation in a LD and that was quite interesting (but another story).

I had also tried finding the Dali Lama to ask him a question. Actually it was my wife Sarah who was meaning to do this. I noticed the severed head of the driver of a car walking ahead of the car I realised I was dreaming. But I was starting to wake up so I hurriedly manifested myself in the private chamber of His Holiness, who looked very surprised to see me. I couldn't remember what I was meant to ask so I just said 'What should I do?' very hurriedly. I forgot to spin to stabilize the dream. He said (perhaps profoundly) 'You don't have to DO anything!' and I woke up.

Back to the point, the meditation teacher suggested that I visualized Chenrezig (who represents compassion in the Vajrayana tradition) and say the mantra Om Mani Peme Hung. Two nights after that instruction I went to sleep consciously passing through the hypnogogic state to a dream state where I was on the banks of the Thames in London and manifested Chenrezig, but he appeared only as a picture.

I haven't had much luck since, despite doing lots of reality checks my dreams have adapted -- for example my digital watch working perfectly -- so I don't catch the dream. When I have had a LD I have not been able to manifest Chrzg, and have gone on quests to find him, which despite being able to pass through walls and fly and remain lucid, have proved fruitless.

Has anyone else tried this type of visualization practice in LDs and if so have they any tips?

By the way, we have ordered a Nova Dreamer, which should arrive any day now.

Bill Lionheart

Hey, Bill! Welcome to the forum and forgive me for taking several days to notice your presence. (My computer time is limited with my son home for the holidays.)

Somewhere in another thread is a long discussion about how to make specific desired objects or people appear and so far no one has refuted my own favorite method: A visual image is often difficult to form at will, but starting with kinesthetic and tactile senses can be easy. Pretend/assume it's there - act as if it exists (I've done this, for instance, with playing a piano and riding a motorcycle) - and soon you may feel it, hear it, and eventually see it.

In the case of people, I embrace their assumed presence and more often than not they materialize to my satisfaction.

If you are comfortable to assume that Chenrezig as the embodiment of compassion is with you always though not necessarily in visible form, then you may be able to simply assume his presence and embrace him in a dream, and allow him to communicate with you in whatever manner he chooses.

I think maybe "visualization" is sometimes taken too literally as applying only to visual imagery! Alas, I can't think of another word that applies to other senses, yet carries the same connotation - beyond imagination, bridging into creation. Sound, taste, smell, touch, emotions, and the movement of energy are all very close at hand in meditation and in dreams. One participant in this forum has been blind from birth; "visualization" in a seeing sense is impossible for her but she dreams very vividly and conjures desired dream characters very successfully.

We have several forum participants who actively include Buddhist practices in their lucid dreaming. Maybe you'll be hearing from them.

I was first lured into intentional lucid dreaming in the form of Tibetan dream yoga. I have my own form of waking-life meditation but a Tibetan lama recently showed up in a dream and said, "I see you're doing biya yoga" - a term I'd never heard of but looked up (when awake) and found it does exist (alternate spelling "bija") and relate to what I do. In the dream I nodded and smiled and went back to chasing after my little niece and nephew - but then returned to ask the lama, "Rinpoche, can you recommend to me what I should be doing in a dream?" He seemed to be in the process of dematerializing from the bottom up and, with only the top half of his head remaining, he rolled his eyes as if I ought to know better! I guessed, "Probably anything I do with awareness in a dream is dream yoga."

So that's my dream-lama's advice, and your experience with the Dalai Lama reminds me of this! It's also in line with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's advice in his excellent book "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep." The bit about "biya yoga" gives some credence to my dream-lama and, hey, would the Dalai Lama steer you wrong? That makes at least three lamas who agree you're having excellent success. I'd say passing through walls and flying are "fruits" in themselves; your efforts have been anything but fruitless. Keep it up! And if you try embracing Chenrezig's essence, please let us know your result if you feel so moved!

Joy

Hi, all!

Here's a lucid dream I had 7/11/03 (I have been in hospital for two weeks, and I had this dream during an AM doze).

I dreamed I was playing an old fashioned hand-held game, the kind with little silver balls rolling around which you tilt this way and that to get them into little holes, when I suddenly discovered I was able to do it perfectly by telekinesis. I realized I must be dreaming in order to accomplish this feat.

I have been setting my intent on a higher order of LD, so taking my cue from Stepehen's experience I asked to be shown my highest potential. The dream scene dissolved, and I was engulfed in a gray-black, smokey background thru which I began to accelerate. It soon took the form of towering dark clouds, complete with thunder and lightening. I was moving at high speed through a massive thunderstorm, really quite a show! After a time I could see a cloud break in the distance, although I had no sense of up or down, only forward. Patchy blue sky and more benevloent cloud formations soon appeared, and I surged forward accompanied by music like a violin chorus. I felt I was heading toward clarity, but then a narrow, elongated, twisting vortex of white cloud, like a tornado on its side, appeared ahead of me and drew me in at fantastic speed. I rushed thru this bright tunnel toward what I could see was a new dream scene forming in the distance. I was spewed out into a scene of vast, clean, precise, hi-tech machinery manned by a few men in lab coats. I had no idea what I was seeing or why--still don't!

I felt I had been distracted by this dream from my original purpose somehow. With a sigh, I found myself back where the LD had begun, minus the little game. I had no interest in doing anything there, but still I did a little half-hearted spinning to prolong the dream. However, I immediately awoke. Interestingly, I was lying on my right side with my left arm extended vertically, as it had been while spinning.

This was certainly an interesting experience, whether or not I actually accomplished my intention.

Paul

Paul:

That was indeed an interesting experience ' you might want to consider having it again (the dream; not the hospital stay!) so you can question the men in the lab coats about their jobs, and their machines.

I always feel that asking yourself to be shown your highest potential is a risky request, because it might lead not to a transcendental (or even highly informational) dream, but instead to the group of images that you most expect to encounter, based on your philosophical, religious, or educational background. People often get caught up in soaring to the clouds, in hearing beautiful music, or in seeing awesome light shows, and then overlook the opportunity to really discover what's going on in their mind beneath the trappings of hard-wired expectation. A transcendental experience might occur, but the Technicolor show espoused by powerful archetypical demands could obscure any genuine transcendent images and emotions.

Where am I going with this? Well, your dream opened on a path of almost stereotypical elevation through stormy haze, then a rapid approach toward blue skies and sunshine. Then suddenly a vortex (and I'll avoid any interpretive notes about the Finger of God pointing you away from your false ascension) moved you into the room filled with hi-tech machinery and the lab-coated fellows (scientists, perhaps? MD's?). I wonder if maybe you came closer to accomplishing your goal than you think by vigorously abandoning the "standards" and placing yourself in the new scene, surrounded by "vast, clean, precise, hi-tech machinery" that required the services of a few scientists. What might that machinery do? Was it responsible for returning you to the original dream, sans the instrument that got you lucid in the first place? Maybe the guys in the lab coats would tell you!

In any case, it must have been a memorable moment. I hope that you'll be interested in replicating, and then building on it"

The best of dreams,

Peter

P.S. I just thought of one minor question: did the guys in the lab coats look at you? If they did, what was their expression?

Peter,

No, they didn't seem to notice me. My vantage point was from some upper level looking down at all of this, as if from some elevated walkway.

Your points are all well taken, and I have also wondered the very same things myself. However, I have noticed that for me in dreams in general, but especially in lucid dreams, emotional involvement or reaction seems to play an important role as a signal to pay attention to whatever was going on. Had this dream scene been an epiphany of some kind, I would have expected some kind of emotional response to seeing it. I felt entirely neutral, except for perhaps some minor puzzlement. No real wonder, certainly no anxiety, definitely no sense that here was an answer or anything of particular meaning. Of course, I'm perhaps too dense to appreciate what I was seeing, but usually I can trust my dream feelings more, I think, than my dream intellect.

So, I don't know what to make of all this, but I will, if given the chance again, take your advice and investigate more thoroughly. I might also add that by the time I got to this place I was near the end of that dream period, I believe, because the pre-lucid dream had lasted much longer than I reported. I just gave the short version. I felt the dream was actually coming to an end, and I even felt some exhaustion in the dream, if you can believe that! Anyway, I didn't really give the end bit much effort.

Paul

Paul:

Thanks for listening! Remember, dreams of transcendence are a rare event, and one big reason for that may be that they conceal themselves well. You never know in dreams (or in waking life!) in which details the Truth is quietly nestling. So it wouldn't hurt to question the men 'behind the curtain,' if you can. Their answers might just trigger the requisite emotion.

Happy Searching,

Peter

Peter,

Can't wait!

Paul

operator error /

I want infinite wisdom, knowledge, patience, and insight... and I want it NOW. LOL!

I've really enjoyed this thread, Paul, Peter, and company. Fascinating insights from all of you.

reverie

Thanks Reverie!

And it's very cool to see your name pop up again!

Peter

Peter and Reverie,

We must stop this double double dipping dipping, folks!

PaulPaul

Paul:

What what double dipping? ;)

Dear Peter, Paul, & Reverie,

You might find of particular interest the article "Experiencing the Divine in the Lucid Dream State" by Dr. Fariba Bogzaran http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/experien.htm. Almost 15 years ago, I took my first lucid dream class with Fariba -- and look what happened!!

;) Keelin

Keel,

Indeed, an interesting article, there! Seek, and ye shall find! Now, where have I heard that before...?

In the dream that I reported I was seeking my highest potential. I expected a transcendent experience, and was puzzled by the result. As I have thought it over, I believe this is because I was seeking with my dream ego without really surrendering control of the dream to my higher self. The result was another dream scene rather than something perhaps more enlightening. At least, that's my theory. Anyway, it points me in the direction of working on surrender.

Paul

Keelin, sorry about leaving off the 'in' on your name. Merely a typo.

Paul

Dear Paul,

No problem -- I've seen stranger versions! And wasn't it time for a reality check?

;) Eel Kin

Keelin:

Thanks for sharing; I'll be sure to check out that site!

But now that I think about it, isn't a keel the sturdy center beam that forms the foundation of a ship's hull, poviding its strength, form, and stability?

Hmm, maybe Paul's error was more metaphor than typo!

Dream well, all,

Peter

Dear Keelin:

I finally read that article (http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/experien.htm). Interesting stuff!

In it, Dr. Bogzaran seems to confirm my notion (posted above somewhere, and as relating to dreams of transcendence) that it is possible for a lucid dreamer to concoct from preconceptions an experience of the divine that more reflects the dreamer's personality than the divine Itself. Did I miss something? If not, then perhaps transcendental dreams, or experiences of the divine, come only after those confining preconceptions have been sidestepped. For instance, could Paul's excursion (also noted several posts above) to the machine room have been such a sidestep? And the even bigger question is how on earth does a dreamer recognize one of these sidesteps and then successfully pursue it without accidentally obliterating it with preconceptions? A tough task, no doubt, but the rewards might be worth the effort!

Meditatively,

Peter

Hi, Peter and Keelin!

At the risk of tying a hopelessly entangled existential knot, this discussion also begs the intriguing question: is there such a thing as a "true" transcendental experience at all, or perhaps are all so-called transcendental experiences generated in the mind, and are thus on some level preconceived no matter what? What if our transcendental experiences have some basic cross-cultural similarities because they're hard-wired into us, for example? I know every experience is eventually a mental experience, but is a transendental experience more than that, or not? Does it originate from outside the self, or not? And would it be any less meaningful if purely mental in origin?

Before anyone gets annoyed with me, I'm not trying to start a theological argument per se... just playing devil's advocate. (There's a joke in that last sentence somewhere but I'm too lazy to coax it out!)

Theoretically yours, reverie

PS Theory: from Greek, theoros: "spectator"-- probably 'thea': a viewing + 'oros': seeing.

Brenda:

Let me add a couple of loops to your knot by saying that yes, I believe there can be a true transcendent experience (the moment when a mind, using a pooling of its own resources in a unique manner, manages to step away from its natural processes toward a categorically different, hopefully better, condition), but I have a feeling that the vast majority of the "experiences" reported probably are mental constructs based on preconceptions. This suspicion is based on something you mentioned ' that we are "hard-wired" to believe in transcendental experience.

Humans may share a universal innate sense that we can be something much greater than that which we currently are. This sense might have nothing to do with reality ' it could just be the result of a terrible accident of nature that occurred about a million years ago when the drive to reproduce & a fear of death collided with the unique human ability to reason ' but regardless, the programming seems to exist. This need to transcend could likely form the basis of faith-based pursuits like religion, New Age, and even science fiction. Though modern society is doing everything it can (mostly by making basic human existence ridiculously comfortable) to quash this sense, it perseveres.

Now that makes it a fairly powerful instinct, and when you mix it with a couple more unique human traits ' imagination and hope ' you have the inevitable result of fabricated transcendence: a moment of great personal joy or awe inspired by our expectations and fantasies, but still very much existing within the confines of our natural minds. Concocted transcendence is unavoidable, and, as you noted, it is certainly better than not imagining it at all! However, though it can certainly be impressive, it is not the real thing.

What is the real thing? I believe the "real thing" is an accidental occurrence, a moment when a mind senses, then becomes, something beyond nature, beyond understood reality. Whether that mind was shown this experience or is simply creating it is beyond me (if it weren't I probably wouldn't be posting bad philosophy on the web today!), but I'm not sure that matters. What does matter is that a soul was able to touch something behind its basic human existence, regardless of the source.

You might ask how, if we can't tap preconceptions, do we reach transcendence? Or, if it's an accident, then what's the point in seeking transcendence? Okay, so it's not a total accident ' with great discipline, a person could probably clear his mind of all preconceptions, retain intellect, and open it up to experiences currently beyond his mental grasp. This would require an enormous amount of preparation (just ask folks like the Tibetan Monks), and perhaps special tools to enhance the opening. My favorite special tool in this is, of course, lucid dreaming. LD's provide a unique platform upon which we exist in a mental place that we're not usually allowed by nature to visit, and a chance to offer an open mind a peek at the deeper machinations of our unconscious, perhaps our soul. All without spending years moaning in a monastery!

Okay, I'm preaching now. I'll shut up and wait for the floodgates of dissent to open.

Peter

Hi, Peter (and co.!) That thoughtful post is going to require more time than I have, to do it justice... I'm going to be out of town until Sunday. But no dissent from me because thus far I don't have a firm belief on the subject-- only ideas.

Until then, everybody, your homework is to figure out the Meaning of Life. I'd like your essays on my desk when I return.

There have been some other intriguing posts lately, too-- from some names that are new to me. I look forward to reading them with more care.

the dreamer, reverie

Two Dreams of Heaven: During a recent spiritual awakening and a renewed commitment to my faith, I had two LD's of Heaven. In the first, I became lucid without knowing directly why I became lucid. There were no particular signs, I just knew I was dreaming. I began to worship the Lord, and then the dream began to fade out. Realizing I had to reconnect to the dream, I remained in a state of worship, but began to thank the Lord for the various sensory impressions of the dream: the stones under my feet, etc., the air around me, etc. That solidified the dream, and I decided I'd like to visit Heaven. Walking down the dream road, a car pulled up in front of me and I got in. The driver took out a shot gun, put it to my temple, and pressed the trigger. There was a deafening silence at first as my spirit left my body. Next, I was in Heaven, and the Lord Jesus was there, saying, "Welcome home, Thea." I went in, and asked if I would be able to visit my heavenly mansion. He said "certainly", and we walked a little way. At the threshold, he said, "Here it is," and I walked through the door. I was surprised and told Him so. "I'm surprised. I always hoped my home in Heaven would have been made of fur, but it is my home in Paia." When I entered the dream version of my current home and began to interact with my family, I lost lucidity. On waking, I decided that the next time I wanted to visit Heaven, I'd skip the shooting death. When I'm lucid, I don't always have control over each little detail, and I wouldn't want to. Element of surprise, you know. LOL. Still, although I was glad to have dreamed of the Lord Jesus Christ, I wanted to do so without getting killed next time. Happily, there was a next time. It began much as the first dream: lucidity for no particular reason, deep spiritual communion with God, i.e. praise and worship. Next thing I know, I'm in heaven, being shown around by an angel. Some discussion of a single thought language is engaged in, and I remember examining her wings. They were long, very feathery and soft. As I was born blind, I do not see in my dreams. My dreams tend to be very conversational, filled with vivid emotions, sounds, textures, etc. So I cannot tell you what this Heaven looked like, only that it felt real to me, and I awoke feeling great.

This lucid dream experience I will describe had such an impact on me that a year later, I still haven'ft written it down in my dream journal. I haven'ft written it down partly because there is no way I could forget it and partly because I am still making sense of it. It seems to represent a direction that lucidity can go that I haven'ft seen described, so I'fll share it with the forum. This is not characteristic of most of my lucid dreams.

My dream starts and I'fm being chased. I am with a young woman who is an acquaintance. To escape from whoever is chasing us, we climb several ladders that lead to metal catwalks. After a series of ladders and catwalks, we are about fifty meters up and we find no ladder, but know that "gthe bad people'h are still coming. The only way out is to hold on to and stand on pipes that are running horizontally along the wall. We start to work our way along the pipes and I look down. It is a long way down and I have a strong feeling about how dangerous it is. I realize it'fs a dream. I want to let go of the pipe because I want to fly, but I become afraid and get what rock climbers call "ethe grip'f and won'ft let go. I get a deep feeling of the significance this dilemma.

I work up the determination to let go of the handhold and turn to my friend. I hold out my hand and say to her, "gThis is a dream. We are completely safe. Take my hand and we can fly.'h She looks worried, but trusts me and takes my hand. We let go and step off the wall into empty space. As soon as we let go we are lifted up and begin to float. I am elated and the significance that letting go and flying is not lost on me--I feel as if it is the most profound metaphor that I have ever acted out. Not just the understanding of it, but feeling it down to the bones. I look into my friend'fs eyes and I understand that she is only a dream character, so I shut my eyes and enjoy the experience. Up to this point, it is not so different from many other of my flying dreams.

Next, with my eyes closed, I completely internalize the experience and forgot about everything around me. I am struck by the incredible feeling of floating free. I am happy about successfully becoming lucid and still practically glowing from the experience of letting go and allowing myself to fly. My body is feeling exceptionally good. I had been thinking previously about the limitlessness of dreams and I think to myself that physical pleasure could be limitless in dreams. As I do with light and visual clarity in dreams, I verbally ordered the physical pleasure I was feeling to increase, not sure if it would or not. It certainly did!

My entire body began feeling intense pleasure. I wasn'ft sexually aroused, but I could only compare it to a full body orgasm. This kept up for some time and being curious about how far this could go, I willed the pleasure to become stronger. And it did. I began radiating intense pleasure throughout my body. At this point, I remember thinking this is getting better than sex. I knew then that in a dream pleasure can go beyond what can be felt in waking life and I willed it to become stronger. It started at the small of my back as a pleasurable energy and it just became stronger and stronger. It was no longer physical sensation, but emotional and intellectual as well. In words, I can only say that it was like all things positive.

It began moving slowly up my spine and increasing in intensity as it did. One of my last coherent thoughts was that "gthis is way, Way, WAY beyond sexual pleasure.'h As this radiance moved up to my neck, it become the center of my consciousness and I no longer had the sensation of a body, or ego, and my thoughts no longer took place in words, except one phrase that I was able to squeeze out, "gcleansing by fire'h, which was the best I could do to describe it at the time. What went on next gets too personal and difficult to describe but it involved a complete loss of ego and I can say that I understood what so many people have described as spiritual experiences. I have no sense of how long this lasted and eventually I found myself aware that I was in bed, but I was still paralyzed with what felt like a vibrating physical pleasure that was once again centered at the small of my back. I would call it a seizure if it weren'ft so wonderful. I was awake, but profoundly impacted by what had happened. This continued for what felt like about two hours.

I remained ecstatic for the following day and no less than joyful for the next week. Still even thinking about it a year later causes this energy to build in my body and I can allow this energy spread throughout my body at will. Like I said, this is not sexual at all; though that is the closest I can come to describing it. I am not a religious person, but when I describe what I experienced, it is difficult not to speak in terms that are normally used to describe religious experiences.

This experience was both violent and beautiful, if that is possible. Violent because at some point, I was no longer in control of any that was happening to me, even my thoughts, and my identity was ripped away. It was beautiful because what was left when I lost my self was a direct experience of total and complete freedom. I was scared to death, but at the same time knew that there is nothing, at all, to fear. I have been quite changed by this experience in a positive way, but I do not particularly want it to happen again. Since that time I have been quite happy to just mess around with the physical environment in my lucid dreams and carry out trivial tasks.

This was brought on by asking in a lucid dream the simple question of what will happen if I ignore all the self-imposed limits of pleasurable physical sensation. What I got as an answer was far more then I ever imagined.

Gordon:

Quite an experience! If you ever find the words, or will, to describe the moment after you left your ego behind, it would be great if you would post it here.

Thanks for sharing!

Peter

Dear Gordon

Thanks for sharing your experience. Even great poets find it hard to describe the quality of ecstatic and transcendental experience. And surely there is an end to words, as so many mystics say. The relation of feeling sexual pleasure and what in your report reminds me of "kundalini" comes to my mind. I guess it is the same energy experienced in different situations. I still don't have a better word to it, than energy, although it seems clear we don't mean it in a physical (physicist's) sense.

First thought, as I read your report, was what I remember being said by Tibetan yogis, that meditation in dreamstate (lucid dreaming meditation) is seven times more effective, than in physical waking state. In a way your experience seems to confirm that.

It is good to hear, you can in a way still access this state of mind and can still enjoy and be well. This is truely an encouraging report of how lucid dreaming experience can enrich our whole life.

Wonder, when I'll be brave enough to try as you did... had similar experience at least of loosing ego in a non - LD. For but a moment. For the blink of an eye. But the memory of this most peaceful state lingers on.

Self imposed limitations - that is worth exploring - and overcoming, of course. For me at least it is one interest in my LD explorations. Self - in the sense of (dream) ego - can be thought of an important limitation. We had discussion on that. It serves lucidity well to see our dream person as what it is - dreamlike, just like all the dreamscape. Mostly until now I don't get that clear. Maybe your lines here can push me further.

Again thanks for sharing

Ralf

Ralf, I suppose I was meditating within the dream. It wasn't my intention--my intention was nothing short of hedonistic. But the quote you made about meditation being 7 times more effective in dreams, I am completely willing to believe.

The curiosity of what would happen if I ignored my self-imposed limitations was definitely the door that led me into this experience.

Peter,

Absolutely everyone who's tried to describe it has screwed it up so badly, I won't even try. : )

This also works in prayer and praise. Once, during an LD, I began praising the Lord the moment I realized I was lucid. The emotion was so great, joyfull and all, I started to lose the dream. So I began praising the Lord for specific things in the dream: the cool wind I could feel, the cement under my feet. Next thing I know, the dream resolidifies, and I'm flying up to Heaven. I met Jesus in that dream, and had a little tour of Paradise--at least, a dream version of it. I woke up feeling fantastic, and it lasted quite a while.

It kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? How many of the religious experiences people have had throughout time can be attributed to lucid dreams?

The prayer state is just a brain wave away from the dream state. Interesting that so many religions see prayer as the state in which God is most likely to communicate with you.

Buddist monks meditate "waiting for enlightenment".

It would explain quite a bit and is...plausible.

Hi all

Quite an interesting point there Gordon, regarding lucidity being the cause of religious experiences / and possibly OBE's etc.

I'm not religious at all, but it crossed my mind that, perhaps, this could work the other way too. Wonder if becoming lucid somehow puts you closer to a state where you can communicate with 'higher' beings, if they exist... That tunnel of light and feeling of euphoria people experience when close to death... People in operating rooms floating above their bodies and watching / listening to all going on - it's totally real to them, only difference is that they're seeing & hearing real events. Perhaps true lucidity really does closely mirror this state...

If so, would be handy to have a word and find out why I haven't won the Lottery yet

Dean