During my training on lucid dreaming, I recorded a lot of nonlucid dreams of transcendence. In most of such dreams the landscape was characterized by the combination "temple & rocks" (or cliffs), in many variants: a temple of the ancient Greece, or a Christion church (Roman catholic or orthodox), or simply a building full of priests. Rocks or cliffs may be in a square in front of a church or elsewhere, etc. Once I saw in a dream the Milan cathedral made of rocks: its gothic spires were changed into mountain pinnacles (I am from Milan, Italy). It is to be added that I'm not an official believer--though I believe in God--and almost never go to a church to attend religious services. I call them "dreams of transcendence" not only for the landscape, but also (and particularly) because during these dreams I experienced very high religious feelings, much stronger than those that I can feel when I'm awake.

Anyone else ever go on a "field trip" in their dreams? Once in 7/82 I found my consciousness within a sphere in a line 6-8 spheres. Within each sphere there were two distinct beings except for the sphere connected to the 1st sphere wherein was a single being. That was our "Guide". OO <--(Like this only connected) O O We all knew what everyone thought, yet O retained our individuality. O O

The train of consciousness bearing spheres started to move forward and our Guide "emoted" to us that we were going to ________.(No words describe) I reacted with disbelief and the "train" immediately slowed down. Our Guide re-informed me we were going and somehow I found it impossible to disagree. We took off and literally disappeared.

First we began to hear... then immersed in and became... the most beautiful music which was everywhere.

Upon waking (I'll never forget) I opened my eyes and my first thought was, "So this is bliss." For years I had heard of bliss/ecstacy and finally was getting a healthy dose! My entire body was in ecstacy. I went outside and hung in my inversion boots...watered my wheat grass & garden...went over and talked with my neighbors, it lasted for a good portion of the morning.

Hi all,

I wanted to share some experiences with a theme I've been missing in the discussion topics hoping it will make others share similar experiences. My whole interest in lucid dreaming is related to this and possibly it may be for others also. Transcendence is loosely related to this which is why I'm posting it here.

So here goes..

Years ago, I had a dream which was about to go into a nightmare. I was sitting in the back of a car getting a ride from a stranger when I suddenly felt he was a serial killer. I looked into the rear view mirror and saw Freddy Krueger-like face. I was about to get very panicked when suddenly the radio turned on and the following message came through "This is your soul..Aitun Marun..(third name I forgot)". Right after hearing this I was giving a blow in the stomouch out of nowhere waking me up in shock. I could feel the afterpain of that blow still as I was awake.

Some time after, I learnt from someone that the words "Aitun Marun" sounded Aramaic, and he gave a me a loose translation of what it could mean. I haven't been able to verify his translation.

I was already involved with "OBE" at the time, what most here call WILDs, a term I may use also once I reevaluated my ideas completely of what "dreaming" means :). Anyways, the next time I was "OBE" I found myself in flying in darkness. I wanted to move faster to get "somewhere" yet I couldn't gain enough speed. I started to drop out of the experience. Then I remebered the help I had gotten in the first dream I talked about. So I asked for help from my soul. Suddenly, something touched my hand, as I was flying in darkness. As my hand was touched tears sprung into my eyes. I was overwhelmed with the gentleness of the touch. It was of an intensity that I lack the words to describe. It softly took my hand, and placed it differently. In between all this, I was a times aware of my physical body lying in bed, flying yet at times aware of my phsyical body. I felt my hand holding on tight to my shirt. It was the tension with "being out of body" which led to grasping my shirt. I felt it being picked up, and placed in a relaxed position with a love I did not knew existed.

There have been other instances, less dramatic than these, in which I was helped. This leaves me with the question: "what is the soul?". I don't know the answer and don't want to get into how it relates to "dreams" and whether it has any objectivity as if existing outside of us yet. Especially in the case of the soul we would get caught in semantics very easily when considering whether it has an objective reality outside of us because usually we consider our soul to be part of us anyways, whether in waking or dream reality.

For now, one thing atleast is clear to me. Something or part of me of me loves me more than I thought was possible and I want to be aware of it. Possibly become it...

So there I go..in search of the soul in the next lucid dream...

Frederick

Of all the applications for lucid dreaming, I believe that transcendence offers us the most significant reward. Of course a well-deserved case can also be made for healing. Healing is "restorative" and transcendence is "expansive." Their disparate merits depend on your situation. If you are physically or psychologically disabled, the priority for healing is obvious. But - with acknowledgment to Maslow for pointing it out - if you are healthy, with a roof over your head, food in the fridge and a steady income, then and only then will transcendence occur to you as a worthwhile pursuit. I completely agree and add one additional observation. An encounter with transcendence has value to anyone, at any time and any place, regardless of his or her individual position on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Transcendence reveals deeper and higher dimensions of experience which are normally blocked by either interference from sensory input or our consensually assigned and accepted human limitations. In general, based on my experience and the self-reports of others, transcendent perceptions primarily express in colors so vivid that they convey an enhanced spectrum, music from octaves that exceed the capability of human voice or instruments, emotions of sufficient intensity to trigger orgasms in the heart, visions of history and events with an all-encompassing comprehension, Light so exquisite that in its presence all forms dissolve, and Love so immediate and penetrating that naught but itself can abide.

There are certainly different degrees of transcendence and many means through which it may express. Lucid dreaming does not solely hold the key. Meditation, sensory deprivation, near death experiences and presumably death itself are obviously other conducive circumstances - as so may be hallucinogenic drugs, asceticism, trauma, fervor and psychosis. There are more of course, but the point I want to make is that I believe lucid dreaming is the fastest, safest, most effective and most versatile of any method. If you seek transcendence, lucid dreaming deserves your time, attention and effort. If other paths for you have failed, you really need to give this one a try.

So, from my personal dream journal, I am going to present for your consideration three lucid dreams with evident elements of transcendence. My most truly transcendental dreams, however, I am not relating for good reason. They were so transcendent that they could not accommodate our addiction to story and form. Their content and emotion were so "off the known map" that I knew it would be futile to attempt to mirror even their reflection in words. The following dreams are thus "somewhat lower on the scale of transcendence." Nevertheless, they should be interesting to read, and I hope they provide an appreciation for lucid dreaming's incredible ingenuity in attempting to make the divine comprehensible to us. I could never consciously compose these. They were spectacular to experience.

July 1997

I realized that I was dreaming and began to fly. I was peacefully soaring over low rolling hills when I suddenly shouted: "I want to see God!" A curious fact is that I don't recall any preliminary reflection, thought, or intent to say this - at least not in the dream. I just unexpectedly blurted it out.

As I came up over the crest of the next hill, I saw before me a vast plain which extended to the far horizon. In the distance stood one large tree, alone, striking me by its singularity. Being lucid, I immediately sensed that this is where I should fly. As I approached the tree, slowing my speed of flight, its topmost tender branches, as though stirred by a slight breeze, opened to form a lush green cup. I effortlessly descended into it. The branches gently closed around me. While held in their embrace, I was overcome by emotion and the overwhelming realization that I am unconditionally loved. Although no words were heard or spoken, I awakened with the certain knowledge that this Love abides with us always and we cannot, for any reason, be separated from it.

March 1998

I was watching what seemed to be the production of a music video. I somehow realized that I was dreaming and decided to perform an experiment. In previous lucid dreams, I understood that the other dream characters were only "in my imagination." This time I wanted to "pretend" that all of the characters were individually real and sentient beings - not just creations of my dreaming mind. As I tried this, the dream characters became astonishingly real. One girl in particular struck me with compelling appeal. I stepped into the "video production," embraced her, and we began dancing. We kissed. It was very passionate and I felt the thrill of infatuation. We continued dancing and soon began floating above the floor in what seemed a swoon. Some unseen force then began pulling us straight up. We were now waltzing in what can best be described as a vertical spiral - up and up, higher and higher, faster and faster. Then, in one magnificent burst - like a huge exploding firework or the "big bang" - the entire cosmos flew out from the two of us in all directions. We found ourselves dancing in the blackness of space. No ceiling above, no floor below - just the beauty and immensity of an infinity of stars surrounding us. I noticed that the music to which we were now dancing was the voice of Engelbert Humperdink echoing through space: "I danced the last waltz with you, two lonely people together. I fell in love with you. The last waltz will last forever." My dancing partner pointed and told me to look. I turned my head and saw what looked like an animated statue of a Greek goddess - holding and moving a stick - conducting the music and our dance. As we waltzed in space, she orbited around us. It seemed as though the entire universe, the music and the conductor - all existed just for us. Eventually floating leaves appeared, we seemed to sink into them, and this marvelous lucidity came to an end.

October 1997

A lucid "witnessing" dream

I was standing in awe of massive architecture which surrounded me. Its effect was powerful and intimidating. Night began to fall and I noticed that people were beginning to assemble. I looked and saw a large platform or stage. Huge torch-like fires were burning on both sides in massive metal bowls. I realized that I was in a stadium of some sort and I began to be pressed upon by a throng of people. Suddenly, from the darkness, Hitler stepped forward between the flames and began shouting at the now enormous crowd. I was engulfed by hysterical adoration. The scene was fascinating. Being lucid, I was stunned by the reality of it. It was as though I had actually been transported back through time.

Without any apparent act of lucid will, I began to float off of the ground and hovered above the crowd. Then I felt myself being pulled backward. Still astonished by the spectacle, I watched it recede. I passed above a wall surrounding the city, then over countryside and villages. I had the distinct impression that I was being transported through the air over Europe. Since I was flying backward in a standing orientation, I turned my head and looked over my shoulder. Amazingly, my dream provided a perfect change in perspective, both to my side as I turned, and then, when my attention became fixed on the landscape behind me, it was advancing toward me exactly as it should. Once again I remember specifically acknowledging my lucidity as I marveled at my dreaming mind's ability to contrive this incredibly complex visual experience.

Soon, still flying backward, I passed above what I assumed to be the coast of Europe and out over the Atlantic Ocean. At this point the dream changed in a manner that is impossible to describe in terms of chronology. I experienced an intricate unfolding of stunning emotional and visual imagery. What I witnessed can only be approximated in retrospect. It came in a flood, and I could only gape in astonishment. I saw time, past and present, love and war, family and isolation. All this and more than I am ever likely to fully recall was presented in a magnificent pageant of art and architecture, battles and blood, old newsreel footage, birth, disease and death, food, furniture and antiques, timepieces, books and music, clothing, tools, weapons, transportation, weather, religious and sacred symbols, nations and flags, race, calamities and catastrophes, destruction and completion. I estimate that this dream lasted from 60 to 90 minutes and I awakened weak with exhaustion as my blood thrilled and my heart pounded. It changed me. I knew I had been privileged to behold a divine and mystical drama. It was and is the magnificent epic of Man. I felt and feel that I lived and am living the fullness and entirety of it. And so are you. We are, after all, One. /Stephen Berlin

I was sitting at a laptop computer. I recognized it as an IBM Thinkpad because it was black and had a red trackpoint on the keyboard. It struck me as odd that it was not my Toshiba Tecra (which is gray with a green trackpoint), so I assumed that "I must have just bought it." I did not do a reality check. This answers the question of whether or not I was lucid.

The screen was black so I turned the computer on. It stayed dark, but I could see a horizontal progress meter along the bottom (similar to the one on Windows 95's opening logo), so I knew it must be working. I was just beginning to think that it was a terribly slow system when a question appeared on the screen. Unfortunately, I don't remember what the question was, but I realized that the computer was "setting my preferences" during this first boot sequence. I probably answered the question because a second screen appeared.

The display showed several "thumbnails" of different lighting effects and asked me, "How do you wish to have light appear?" I scrutinized my options, most of which I don't recall very well, but I do remember that they did vary in brightness and intensity. Some choices were inside scenes and others were outside scenes. One thumbnail, however, was impossible to ignore. The sun was glinting from behind some cumulus clouds. Intermittent flashes from this were blindingly bright, similar I would say to someone at a distance reflecting the sun in a mirror to get your attention. I was astounded that such a small thumbnail could put out such bright light from a simple active-matrix screen. Without further hesitation, I selected it.

At that moment, the computer screen morphed into a fleshy human heart (which was a remarkable synthesis of the actual organ and a valentine) and it suddenly burst into flames. The flames were not red or orange as would be expected, but dark violet and pure white. The flames engulfed the heart in a swirling firestorm. High emotion in my own heart accompanied this remarkable vision. Then, almost beyond belief, TEXT emerged from and lined-up across the conflagration, in what I can best describe as "letters of living Light." I gaped to read, "I AM COME."

My last thoughts (I regret to admit, but I always tell the truth) were "WOW!, this would be an awesome Webpage!"

And now my anti-climactic analysis for the sake of lucid dreaming instruction:

Day Residue: The sun coming through the clouds in my thumbnail selections. Those of you who read my posting on Geography and Navigation in Dreams may recall that I said, "If the sun is breaking through your overcast . . . the Divine is trying to get your attention."

More Day Residue from a lifetime of days: Why would the fire be dark violet and pure white? Well, one of my favorite places on the planet is Mt. Shasta, California. It is a mecca for the spiritually-oriented. Many who live in this remarkably beautiful mountain setting believe in something called "The Violet Transmuting Flame," or Violet Fire. These individuals affirm that the disciplined "visualization of the Violet Fire" consumes any evil we have personally held-in-mind or committed. I don't necessarily believe this in a literal sense, but from my experience it can be an effective mental cleansing, especially if you hold indefatigable hostility for someone. It is better to consume (or perhaps pretend to consume) your anger and your guilt for your anger, than rigidly denying and repressing it. This past week, I saw an ominous dark cloud hanging over a hillside along the freeway. I pointed out to Rebecca that it looked like "the cloud of death" from the movie The Ten Commandments. Suddenly, inside of me, I perceived the wish that it should visit one specific person who really messed up my life last fall. Whereas her death was not my desire - locusts in her hair, that kind of stuff, sounded pretty good. Such ignoble thoughts give me anguish. It crossed my mind that perhaps I should call upon the Violet Fire. Now we know where that came from.

Day Residue Galore: The Heart. I've mentioned the heart in many of my postings, so this may have been expected in any event. But yesterday, immediately before going to bed, I read the following poem:

I am the Heart; and the Snake is entwined About the invisible core of the mind. Rise, O my snake! It is now the hour Of the hooded and holy ineffable flower. Rise, O my snake, into the brilliance of bloom On the corpse of Osiris, afloat in the tomb! O heart of my mother, my sister, mine own, Thou are given to Nile, to the terror Typhon! Ah me! but the glory of ravening storm Enswathes thee and wraps thee in frenzy of form. Be still, O my soul! that the spell may dissolve As the wands are upraised, and the aeons revolve. Behold! in my beauty how joyous Thou art, O Snake that caresses the crown of mine heart! Behold! we are one, and the tempest of years Goes down to the dusk, and the Beetle appears. O Beetle! The drone of Thy dolorous note Be ever the trance of this tremulous throat! I await the awaking! The summons on high From the Lord Adonai, from the Lord Adonai!

This was written by Aleister Crowley, a man misunderstood, as all my exemplars seem to be. It might be worthwhile to point out that both the Kabbalistic Tree of Life and the rising Kundalini Fire are commonly portrayed as serpents.

Enough easy reading! /Stephen Berlin

Hello everyone. The following dreams were sent to me by email. I asked the dreamer - Sarah D. - for permission to add them to our Forum thread on Transcendence. These dreams came to her in a series, approximately two weeks apart. She believes the "trigger" was an online relationship with a strong loving and spiritual component. May her dreams serve to further elevate ours:

Dream #1 I was lying on a small stone or concrete slab in the middle of a grove of evergreens. I was dressed in white. It was twilight, L'Heure Bleu, when the sky is dark purple. There was a crescent moon with a star (or Venus?) cradled in the "cup" of the crescent. After a bit, an eagle-man appeared above me and sort of floated down on top of me, extending his wings around me and then closing them in to form a cocoon. (The eagleman was a morph between a man and eagle -- not a 'mask' effect, but as if an eagle and a man had been perfectly joined without demarcation of each other.) As he was on me, a wonderful blue egg took form -- that perfect blue of glaciers -- within my chest. Then he pulled up and stood up, looking at me. I remember having this feeling of overwhelming joy and relief, that I was reborn (is how it felt).

Dream #2 I was standing on a "mesa" in what appeared to be the middle east. There was a town in the distance, in the hills. An old man appeared, hunched over, sort of slight build, dressed all in white, with a shawl (?) over his head (also white). He had the most intense blue eyes imaginable. He looked at me very seriously, very dourly and gave me a present, wrapped up in white cloth with gold edging. I remember feeling very nervous, unsure at being able to handle the responsibility of this gift he was presenting me. As he gave it to me, he looked me dead in the eye with those blue eyes of his and said, "Adonai! Adonai! Adonai!"

Dream #3 It was a very dark, moonless night, but there were clouds floating in the sky that seemed to be illuminated on their own ("glowing"?). I was in a rowboat on a black lake, where the stars were reflected. Sitting next to me was Bill Gates, who was comforting me, reassuring me. I pointed down in the water at what I was so upset about. There was a small blue homunculus floating just under the surface, a "dead baby". As B.G. was comforting me, the clouds opened up and a shaft of white light beamed down to the shape in the water and it floated up to the clouds.

These were all lucid, "real-time" dreams. It's been a year since I had them, and I'm sure I'm leaving out some detail. But they seem to fall into your transcendence group. I've been trying to put them in some kind of personal perspective ever since.

Sarah

I was in a room with other people. I saw a girl across the room and had instant but minute feelings of awesomeness. Later she came over to a little settee that I was occupying and sat down. The feeling I got from her was like the beginning of ultimate fullfillness. If we had touched I would not have needed by body anymore. This was a non or partial shot of lucidity. These feelings were being conveyed using the old boy-meets-girl tactic. Amen.

P.S.-Its nice to hear from you Stephen B.

Hi.

I'm happy to have found this forum because I tended to think that my lucid dreams were, if not unique, then of special significance to me and my life alone. Reading that you all are having similar experiences, and finding that Stephen has created a well-run and spiritually constructive LD centre is a great promoter of humility and stability. So, thanks to Stephen and all participants.

For me LDs have come in bursts: certain times when I get them quite a lot, followed by long non-LD periods. I think these bursts coincide with periods when I have been working especially hard. Has anyone else noticed this?

The first LD I can remember was when I 'woke up' in a park, and wondered how to test that I was dreaming. All I could think of doing was to walk over to a high granite wall and sink my fingers into the stone - which I did. I then climbed, sloth-like, up the wall and stood at the top wondering what to do next. The possibilities were so overwhelming that I woke up in bed - paralysed. It took a while before I could reconnect to my body.

I'm posting on this particular bit of the forum because the LDs often contain mythical/jungian/transcendent features. Two examples:

I find myself walking in the country with some companions. We come to the top of a hill, and see an enormous tree in the valley below. I write enormous, but it was much bigger. It was so big that an enormous ancient temple complex (like the big Lasa monastery in Tibet) had been built among its roots, and therefore looked quiet small. It was so tall that I was afraid to look up at the top. Perfectly aware that I was 'dreaming' (there should be another word), I went up to the massive gate of the temple, and saw that it was locked. My companions indicated that we couldn't get in, but I found a way to open it and walked through into the courtyard. The entrance to the building was by a smooth ramp which sloped downwards, seemingly into the basement. Everything was on such a massive scale that 'basement' sounds funny. Walking down it, I saw a figure standing at the bottom: a small, wizened old person dressed in an elaborate ceremonial costume. He led me through a maze of massive walled tunnels to an underground chamber which seemed to some kind of music room. There were instruments of all kinds available. I wanted to see and find out more, but the event ended there.

Another recent LD happened after I had been working very hard on a painting. I experienced the now familiar 'expanded/floaty/disembodied feelings immediately I lay down; knew immediately that it was an LD night., and hoped it wouldn't be one of those where I float around in a shadowy place for a while before snapping out of it. It wasn't. It was the most immediate and clear one to date. Straight away with no transition, I found myself flying as straight as an arrow over a beautiful evening coastline, out over the emerald and white surf towards a glorious sunset. Words cannot express the joy of doing this in a state of crystal clarity. It occurred to me to exert some control, so I banked and turned in the air, only to find myself hurtling toward a rock face. I flapped my arms, rose above it, and discovered I had got myself on the same course as before - zooming out over the ocean. After a while, I saw some land ahead, then a town, then a big shopping complex. As if guided on a laser beam, I descended into a news agent shop full of people. It was all so real. I kept thinking, this is real! I had the feeling I was going to meet someone, but when I landed among the people, I sort of froze-up. Gobsmacked, I guess. Anyway, all I could do was stand there like a stunned mullet staring fixedly at some greetings cards on a rack. I wanted to look around but couldn't. The group in the shop seemed to know I had arrived, and were commenting on my goofy immobility - but in a friendly way. Then one of them just said, "It's great!" - and things faded as they do, and I woke up.

Sorry to take so long to tell it - but I'd be interested in your comments.

All the best

Alan T

Dear Alan!

I think, working as an artist opens the doors to the unconcious. So, if you work hard, it seems to me, you open many doors. I do not really know, if comment means interpretation. But now it's too late. I've already done it. But I'm sure, you have already your own interpretation.

Regarding your second LD:

Reaching the top of a hill seems to say, that you have gained a new, higher point of view by means of your own (hard) work. And what you can see now is THE TREE. There is a tree in germanic mythology similiar to your dream - tree. It's called Yggdrasil. It's an ash - tree. The branches are spreading all over the world. Its top scrapes the sky. Three roots are carrying the tree. Under one root lies the land of the dead, under the second root are living the giants (Reifriesen), below the third root is the land of mankind (Midgard). The mythologicals / archetypical links of the tree - symbol are too many. But in your dream you seem to be at the center of the world, where earth and heaven are joined by THE TREE. This symbol is similiar to the "hill", as it is a link of earth and sky, but it goes much deeper. Climbing the hill takes your own effort, but seeing and reaching the tree is an act of grace you can't force. Great dimensions of things in dreams belong to a great / deep meaning in life. So your work and this act of grace seem to lead you, while your on your way to the the roots of your work (as an artist). It is said, that there are three springs at Yggdrasil. Maybe you encountered the spring of (your) creativity down inside the temples basement. Maybe the dream wants to tell you, that your work is linked to a deep, mythological (religious) side of the world. And that it takes hard work and an act of grace to create real art.

Regarding your third LD:

It's difficult to interprete my own dreams, but hope you find my hints worthful: All I know is, that you have been working hard on a painting. It seems the dream belongs to the process of painting and the result, the picture as an object. What a difference! While painting you let your mind drift through the most beautiful landscapes, you are living in the picture, you are beeing moved. You are just enjoying and beeing. But then you try to do something, you try to control. In painting this may be translated in using a certain technique or trying to make a picture look like this or that. You try to give the living experience a kind of form. Seems, that your painting grows more detailed, like you may soon come to an end. I may be wrong, but the next part of your dream seems to belong to selling your picture. The picture is now an object, it's a greeting card, ready to be sold. It's static. And so are you. Not able to move you are standing like a statue of yourself. The creative process is over. The object of art is there. And the artist himself is now an object, because he is looking for appreciation. You are appreciated. But it seems, that you need to let go of your object, if you want to get back into the (a new?) creative process.

Keep on with the art of dreaming

Yours

Ralf

Alan,

I have the opposite experience--more lucid dreams when life is more calm, less active.

Nibbana

I read Alan's dream about the temple and the old wizened person with interest. Years ago, I was involved with a metaphysical group that used guided imagery to establish a bridge between the 'conscious' and 'super-conscious.' The imagery involved ascending a 7-terraced mountain (each terrace having a certain color and an affirmation), and on the highest terrace which was shining white, was a temple. Among other things, inside the temple was a Record-keeper who would help the seeker gain access to the akashic record, where all answers supposedly could be found. Building a relationship with that Record-keeper seemed to be an aide to more easily accessing healing and knowledge. That exercise of building a bridge between realities seemed to precipatate lucid dreams, both WILD's and DILD's, most of which were very transcendent in nature. It does take a lot of focus. I have tried using the technique lately and have had a couple very short WILD's. What happens to me is that I have difficulty mastering my thoughts, my beta waves. Reading Alan's lucid dream about the temple made me wonder what kinds of imagery others use, what kinds of bridges they visually build. When I was a young child, I had a trap door in my bed that would open up in my dream.

Reply to Ralph:

Thanks for the interpretations - most useful - and echoing many of my wonderings.

Yes I did know of Yggdrasil (I'd love to hear someone actually pronounce that one day), and also the Khaballistic/Jungian symbolism. Honestly, the only value I get from all the various analyses and systems overlaid on this experiential 'area' is that it's nice to know that other people have been doing this stuff for thousands of years, and trying to make maps of it - such as the Tree of Life in the Khaballah (where, I think the consciousness state of LD is located in the Sephira Yesod) , or Jung's 'Archetypes and the Unconscious' (which is full of the shaman-like characters, symbols, and shape-shifters so commonly reported in LDs) The actual experiences are, however, intimately personal - and never seem to deliver the neat, conclusive package of information we crave. Well, I crave. Why the hell should it always be so open-ended and vague and incomplete? That's just the way it is, I guess.

BTW Ralph, the painting under discussion here is a semi-nude portrait of a female friend who has recently had breast cancer and a double mastectomy - so I can't see it used on any greeting card s - but maybe a charity card for breast cancer research? Could be. Would you like me to email you a jpeg? When I started on the painting 4 months ago, I was 'told' not to 'drop it', in an LD - and this definitely played a part in ensuring that the difficult picture got completed. That's what I mean by intimately personal. So the LD I reported where I was told, "It's great", seems like some sort of acknowledgment of a finished project - but who is acknowledging? Am I just dreamily patting myself on the back, or are these 'sources of input' independent consciousnesses?

I'd like to hear everyone's views on this seemingly whakko question...s

Reply to Leslie and Mary:

Leslie - Hmmmm, might have known it wouldn't be pinned down so easily s.

Mary - your Khaballah-like exercise of the pyramid is very interesting, and sounds similar to some Theosophical techniques I used to be involved with. Other than meditational and mind training exercises which were directed at other objectives, but may well have stimulated LDs inadvertently, I have never deliberately sought to attract more LDs. They just happen when they happen. I love the trap door in the bed image - someone could write a kids book on that s.

Something else that occurs to me is that all this stuff (LDs, OBEs, etc) has been going on a very long time (like since the caves!s) and there has been many attempts to explain, exploit, and systematize this phenomena - including initiation and training in secret societies and cults, saintly visions, voodoo trances - you name it. But (underlined) here we still are, as puzzled as ever about this phenomenon, after thousands of years of exploration and different interpretations of it. Must be something pretty special, I reckon.

Regards to all.

Alan T

As for Alan's question: "Am I just dreamily patting myself on the back, or are these 'sources of input' independent consciousnesses?" I am reminded of the image of a hand with the fingertips immersed in water. Seen from below the water line, the sources of input seem to be independent consciousness. And above the water line, it seems apparent that we are all one. I do believe that some of us are not so puzzled with the phenomena as others are. And I believe that certain practices--meditation, etc.-- help us to bring things into our remembrance. (BTW, I am one of the very puzzled ones.)

Mary - nice description, and I guess I'm getting used to the idea that it doesn't matter, or is irrelevant. But I can't help wondering about unanswerable questions like does the LD 'arena' exist when we are not 'in it'? Is it in fact a substance that responds to our thoughts? Or do the visions and events we experience 'there' actually take place purely as brain activity? It's easier to believe the former than the latter. How can we imagine all those worlds and events and unexpected encounters being generated by neuronal/synaptic activity? It's early days yet in the emergence of this phenomena, but I look forward to more science-based studies of a condition which could benefit so many. Yes, I am aware of the traditions on the 'Astral Plain', and its use for transcendental purposes - like meditation. But meditation is the practice of suspending thought, whereas this arena is not - it's more like meditation as theatre, and thus might suit a lot of people better.

Dear Alan,

Just, as I expected: You are able to interprete your own dreams ggg . But sometimes I can't prevent myself from interpreting and writing. I would be very pleased to take a look at your painting.

Regarding, whether other conciousnesses may be involved: There have been some thoughts concerning this subject in the forums thread: Aspects of the Dream State: The LD - OBE connection You may read an interesting article by LaBerge and DeGracia entitled "Varieties of Lucid Dreaming Experience": http://www.lucidity.com/VOLDE.html

In my opinion there is some proof, that there is a higher ESP - susceptibility during REM - stage. Maybe some "external" information enters the dreaming mind. But if it is so, how is it processed? How does it look like, how does it feel or smell? Are we able to distinguish between internal and external sources of information while dreaming? Do these "consciousnesses" look like they "actual" do? We may find proof after the experience.

Keep on puzzling

Yours

Ralf

Hello, Ralf and fellow oneironauts

Ralf, what you're saying about higher ESP-succeptibility reminds me of something I read the other day in a very interesting book called WE'VE HAD A HUNDRED YEARS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY AND THE WORLD'S GETTING WORSE, by James Hillman and Michael Ventura. On p.150 Ventura says: Quote:

There is so much...that the West in general and pysychotherapy in particular has shunted aside because it simply hasn't the conceptual framework to deal with it. At each stage of development we've had to pretend that we know everything, when really we know so little. When Ginger and I were together, sometimes in the course of one of my dreams I'd hear something said in another room or hear a sentence shouted some distance away, and it would turn out to be (this became a joke with us) something that somebody had said in her dream. Or she would hear something in mine (actually, I'd usually hear and she'd usually see - intereresting difference). And where does this leave all the theories of dreams, from the Freudian to the biochemical?

Reply to Ralf:

I've sent you a JPEG of my recent painting: hope you can open it, and that you like my style s.

I searched the reference you gave, in vain, for a mention of the seemingly independent participants I sometimes meet in LD. As a Marketing Director for a neuroscience institute, I am accustomed to wading through scientist's prose and translating it into proper communication (the quote: "to stretch a butterfly on the wheel" often comes to mind), but I could find no reference to 'guides' or any other paradigm which might account for this impression. Perhaps they don't want to be accounted for? s.

For me, this aspect is the whole value of LD. Sure, the experience itself is fun, and liberating in a way that none other is, but when this arena serves as a support and confirmation of higher aspirations, then it becomes uniquely precious.

I gather that you have studied aspects of this most fascinating of all areas. So I'll mention that, for the last fortnight or so, I've enjoyed a lively discussion on the Andrew Cohen forum site called 'What is Enlightenment?' . A learned member called Sandeep Chatterji, of Bombay, expertly and sincerely advocated the Vedic position that nothing really exists, because it is all the manifestation of the One - therefore everything is a delusion, therefore everything is "appropriate". My side of the debate was condensed into the response of, "So what?"

I felt compelled to offer an alternative to his unifocused view, because I considered it unhealthy. If impressionable readers were to truly take what he said on board, I foresaw an increase in the population sector which doesn't give a shit about anything. And that outcome, to me, seemed undesirable s.

The lively exchange is still visible on:

www.egroups.com/messages/WhatIsEnlighte nment

All the best to you and yours,

Alan T.

Reply to Adastra:

Thanks for the illuminating quote.

I deal every day with neuroscientists who know (repeat, know) that psychotherapy is dead as a vehicle for solution-seeking in seriously mentally disabling conditions. They are into brain scans and neurobiology, and for these conditions, I am with then 100%. Therapy, however, has an invaluable support role to play in counselling people who are able to receive reference to perspective (i.e. companionship) on their condition, or the condition of others that affects theirs.

Overall, I think we are in the dark ages of this science of consciousness, and that there exists an astonishing realm to explore. I am strengthened in this view by the recent interest in relating quantum theory to the mechanics of thought - as exampled in the following sites:

www.culture.com.au/brain_proj/quantum

htt p://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa

Sorry, this server won't translate my URLs. s

All the best to you and yours,

Alan T.

Alan,

"Sure, the experience itself is fun, and liberating in a way that none other is, but when this arena serves as a support and confirmation of higher aspirations, then it becomes uniquely precious." I like that statement of yours. As to finding reference to those seemingly independent dream characters, have you ever read things by Rudolf Steiner? I cannot remember which title I read it in, probably 'An Outline of Occult Science' (which is re-published under a new title, I think). But he talks about spheres that we travel through as we enter into sleep and beyond, and what it takes to remain conscious through each one, and the qualities of the dream characters that are met in the spheres. He talks about the possibility of remaining conscious throughout the journey and the return. The first sphere, we encounter beings who reflect to us exactly what we are feeling. (No wonder I see some bewildered faces.) If we make it conscious through that sphere, in the next we communicate with beings who are similar to us in affect, and the next in thought. Then comes a sphere in which we can only remain conscious if we realize that there are many paths to enlightenment, rather than narrow-mindedly thinking that we have the only right one. And so forth. I remember more but it gets fuzzy. I wish that I had my old copy to refer to. Steiner is very interesting. Some people find him very difficult to read. He was very prolific and I have found some works very beneficial and some not. Not many libraries carry him.

Ralf, "that there is a higher ESP - susceptibility during REM - stage." It seems to me that I read somewhere that when you wake a person during theta (or was it delta?) sleep, that they are much less likely to say that they were dreaming than if you wake them during REM, but if they are dreaming, the dreams are more like an OBE--that is, they are flying above a street looking down on a scene, rather than feeling themselves in the scene. I have always suspected that ESP-susceptibility could be higher in those dreams than in REM dreams. Mary

Reply to Mary.

Yeah. Steiner. I have no doubt that this area of human experience is older than the caves, and is reinterpreted in each age. Also, no doubt, it is the source (called by many names) of all the religions - except Confucious, of course. Having obseved that, what do we do with the information?

The fact is, IMHO, the environment we are addressing is composed of elements foreign to our 'material' world (though quantum physics seems to be catching up). Therefore any fixed 'atlas' of its geography will be subjective, and inevitably a reflection of the human conditions which pertained at the time of interpretation.

I like this. What it means is that each of us has to explore it like the first explorer. Where else can you go except OUTER space to get that?

One story I like is about an assembly of students around Rumi (12th century Sufi). A student asked him to show something from the 'other world'. Rumi reached into his sleeve, and presented an apple. The sharp-eyed student said, "But there's a maggot in the apple!"

"Yeah", said Rumi, "everything becomes corrupted when it comes down here."

Isn't that just priceless? s

Kind regards

Alan T.

Alan, Thanks for your kind words of encouragement concerning fear and stepping into the light, etc. I liked hearing your friend's dream. I found it inspiring. "Yeah. Steiner.' That made me chuckle. Steiner would agree with what you said. It actually is more worthwhile to speak of personal experiences, rather than to refer to what others have written. It makes for a better communication. As to the subject of dream characters, I have found in my personal experience that I encounter characters whom I believe are aspects of myself (my own brain activity) but also they come from a depth I do not always have access to while in 'everyday consciousness.' And I attract characters with varying qualities depending on my state of awareness, and ability to hold onto clarity. For instance, once I dreamed that I was in a large, dark parking lot. I realized that I was dreaming and I recognized the place. I encountered an individual who had a blank stare on his face. I asked him if he accepted the teachings of Christ and he gave me no acknowledgement, so I went on. I came to a lady also with a blank stare, who did acknowledge my question with a affirmative shake of her head and a motion to follow her. We walked down a street with residential homes, and she stopped at one and told me that I would like to meet the people inside. After a knock on the door, a gentleman let us in. I was amazed by two giant chickens in the foyer, they were about 8 feet tall. The gentleman said, If you think these are something, you ought to see the snake upstairs. I was very excited, said "I've got to see this,'and bounded up the stairs. At the top, I remembered that I was lucid dreaming and could create in the dream whatever I wanted. I vaguely remembered that I had a question that I wanted to ask (health related for a family member.) But as I tried to remember the question, lucidity and the dream started to fade, so I opted to ask another question. What came to me was, "What keeps me from coming here more often?' I saw a gentleman whom I believed could answer any question I posed, and I asked of him my question. He stared at me, put his hands on my hips, as though divining the answer, or "reading" me, so to speak. I felt impatient for the answer, and said, "It is too much caffeine, isn't it? Isn't it?' He said, "No.' and "Too much electrical activity.' He gave me a card the size of a business card, with a picture of a shining white city with domed roofs. In the background was a clear blue sky. In the foreground was a road into the city crowded with travelers entering the city. And he said, "Pretend that you are in the city preparing to depart.' I began to feel very sexual and pressed my body against his, and rubbed against him. I immediately woke up feeling very exhilerated. Electrical activity I have come to think of as daydreaming. I have on occasion imagined myself in that city, and it has seemed to fill me with a sense of purpose. The dream characters themselves seemed to become richer as the dream went along. Or to put it another way, they seemed to be more what I was looking for--in the end I was dialoging with someone whom I believed could give me good answer to any question I posed. Then, there are characters in other dreams who seem to exude unconditional love--they love me just the way I am, they are delighted with me, and the experiences with them are very enjoyable, very stimulating. To get in the company of these, I have to alchemize my self-critical nature. Most people do not see this in me, but my close friends do, and people who read my writing do. The way I best change is through journalling, guided imagery and meditation. But I seem to have a default setting that keeps going back to self-criticism. As for the question of, are characters independent consciousness or part of our brain activity, I still hold with the fingers in the water image--depends on the perspective. And that goes for not only dream characters, but also you, all forum members, me, and everyone we know. We are all one mystical body--just appears otherwise from below.

Reply to Mary:

I guess the thing about self-criticism is a matter of degree? Those who don't seem practice it at all are tiresome bores, and those that do it too much are self-absorbed neurotics. Personally, I veer towards the latter, probably like you. We also share a perfectionist streak - which probably goes with self criticism like giant chickens go with giant snakes s.

The Sufis have their Nafs, which are a list of 'selfs', or personal states. The ones we have to deal with are the first three of seven. They are the Commanding self, the Accusing self, and the Serene self. The Commanding self more or less equates to what Westerners call the ego; the Accusing self is what you call self-criticism, and the Serene is the state we get into when we align or harmonise the first two. I can count the times I have felt the Serene self on the fingers of one hand - and would love to be there all the time instead of ping-ponging from one side to the other like a demented lawyer who doesn't know if he's working for the prosecution or the defence. Maybe I'll get there in the end - if the fires die down in the right way. Electrical activity? That's one way to describe excitability, I suppose. We seem to have much in common, so please remind me never to live with you s.

Some LDs are uniquely supportive. I mean that they confirm or strengthen activities which turn out to be of long-term value - so I tend to seek more contacts of this kind. But it seems that this influence, whatever its source, is inconsistent. Most of the LDs I have are baffling.

For example. last night I LD'd a public park where lots of people were strolling about. I was delighted to be in that state again, so went up to a couple and announced happily that I was awake in a dream. One of them laughed in a very friendly way, and said, "Oh, you're into all that Marden (Marsden?) crap, are you?"

I've looked for reference to Marden or Marsden without success - wondering all the while if this is a proper activity for a grown man s.

Kind regards

Alan T

Alan, I like the Sufi perspective, very uplifting. I had occasion to enjoy Sufi dancing several times many years ago, a wonderful experience.

"We seem to have much in common, so please remind me never to live with you s.' On the earth plane I don't think you have much to worry about, given our differing locales. In the inner planes however, we do seem to share similar spaces, ie, a sense of humor, light-heartedness, being curious about most anything.....also perhaps unhealthy self-criticism and, for me I suspect, toxic guilt. So if you don't want to live with us (me and anyone else there), you gotta grab your bags and move out. But if you are moving out of either of the latter two spaces, can I grab on to your coat-tails? I don't mind visiting thereabouts occasionally, especially if I can encourage someone there to move out, but I'm tired of making them part of home-base.

'.Some LDs are uniquely supportive. I mean that they confirm or strengthen activities which turn out to be of long-term value - so I tend to seek more contacts of this kind.' Amen, amen.

"But it seems that this influence, whatever its source, is inconsistent.' I can relate.

"One of them laughed in a very friendly way, and said, "Oh, you're into all that Marden (Marsden?) crap, are you?" I've looked for reference to Marden or Marsden without success - wondering all the while if this is a proper activity for a grown man s.' That part intrigues me. Other than being friendly, what was the feeling behind the Marden crap remark made by the dream character? Was it a similar feeling to that you felt while writing the last half of your last sentence?

May you have uniquely supportive LDs that confirm and strenghten activities which turn out to be of long term value! Mary

Was it a similar feeling to that you felt while writing the last half of your last sentence?

Very perceptive. In addition to being an incorrigible doubter of everything, and an instinctive heretic, I am also not absolutely sure that LD is a skill which practice makes perfect . If indeed there are ascending grades of expertise in this practice, where then are all the other practitioners who, having 'taken the course', should have achieved some sort of diploma by now? The assumption we make is that some people have more hands-on expertise in LD than others, but all we really know is that some others, having specialised in this study, know more about the research into it than others. The evidence is only that people can induce LD - not that they can get any ' better' at it - which is what I want to do. It may be that seeking to control this area of experience is inappropriate - like trying to control the outcome of prayer.

I would appreciate your, and others, responses to this debating point.

As for 'grabbing on to my coat tails', you're very welcome. But you have to understand that I don't know where I'm going s.

Kind regards

Alan T.

"I am also not absolutely sure that LD is a skill which practice makes perfect." IMHO, skill certainly grows with practice and intent.

"If indeed there are ascending grades of expertise in this practice, where then are all the other practitioners who, having 'taken the course', should have achieved some sort of diploma by now?" Where would you want to be, were this true for you?

"The assumption we make is that some people have more hands-on expertise in LD than others, but all we really know is that some others, having specialised in this study, know more about the research into it than others." You strike me as the sort of person who is adventurous and wants to operate independently for a while. Do you remember saying, "I like this. What it means is that each of us has to explore it like the first explorer." (a couple posts back) The first explorer does not have someone in the boat with him letting him know what is beyond the next curve in the river or over the next hill.

"The evidence is only that people can induce LD - not that they can get any ' better' at it" Of course, we know that everyone has to find their own subjective truth on this. However, from my limited perspective, I know from personal experience that I can get better at it. But I hasten to add that getting better at LDing was not my intent, it just happened as a by-product of the sojourn. And I've let what skill I gained fall by the wayside as I followed other tangents. The giant chicken dream, and others if I get around to writing them, are from years ago. I did have a short WILD this morning (I approached a rectangular table, people were sitting around it with plates before them. Each plate had two pieces of colorless food on them. I sat down. There was no plate in front of me, only utensils, and I thought, It does not matter, I don't need any food. And before I thought about how I would like to change the dream, I woke up.) A common dream theme for me, only usually it is a scrumptious feast. Once in a non-LD it was a potluck of gourmet desserts and I felt that I ought not eat because I had mistakenly bought a salad instead of a dessert. Yet there was an obvious overabundance of food. I have very successfully changed the theme in the past, but there seems to be a default setting that keeps going back to this theme when I don't keep up the alchemy. I would sure like to change that more permanently.

"- which is what I want to do." Commendable and exciting. But why do you want to get better at it?

"It may be that seeking to control this area of experience is inappropriate - like trying to control the outcome of prayer." Seeking to control the outcome of prayer is inappropriate?

"I would appreciate your, and others, responses to this debating point." As we do yours. Thanks for your post.

"As for 'grabbing on to my coat tails', you're very welcome. But you have to understand that I don't know where I'm going s." But a part of you does. May I speak with that part, please?

May peace be with you, Mary

Reply to Mary:

I wrote a lengthy Q&A reply, but hit the Quit key by mistake. Typical. Anyway, the essence of it all was summed up in the last bit, which was:

I think the essence of it all is humility. These experiences cut to the quick of whatever we are, and thus are an 'alternative vehicle' capable of reinforcing our intimation that reality is a much bigger arena than we can objectively perceive.

Neatly said - but little understood. s

Regards

Alan T.

"reality is a much bigger arena than we can objectively perceive." Exactly. Much bigger than we can perceive with our objective senses. We need to develop other senses.

Getting back to your Public Park LD, (if you don't mind,) would you tell me what was your feeling reaction to the dream character's Marden crap remark? (ie, What went on inside the character you identified with? What was the first gut reaction and did any others follow?)

Yeah. I short-changed you on that last post because I couldn't face retyping it all.

I don't know what you mean by "the character you identified with". I'm me in LDs - if usually me in a euphoric mood. Identifying with hitherto unknown characters is surely for non-lucid dreams? Anyway, now refreshed, I'll reply properly to your penultimate post s.

Q: Where would you want to be, were this true for you? A: I'm a workaholic on several fronts, all of which depend for their success on the gaining and implementation of creative ideas - and I imagine using LD to further these projects while I'm 'resting'. Then again, there's always the self-developmental/revelation aspect. These two motives seem to merge in my tiny mind s.

Q: "like the first explorer." A: Point taken - and similar to the 'way is uncharted' LD I reported.

Food theme? Is this a 'chick's thing' about diets and stuff?

Q: Seeking to control the outcome of prayer is inappropriate? A: This is the toughest one to answer. Let me report two LDs as examples. 1. A few weeks after my eldest son was diagnosed with schizophrenia at the age of 20, he walked into my bedroom - only he was as he was at the age of 8. He put his little hand on my face, and said, very sympathetically, "I'll just have to stay here, now'". 12 years later, he remains non-compliant and incurable. 2. A few years ago, when I was very ill in Australia, my younger son (who lives in England) walked in laughing. He leaned down and kissed me, saying, "The time is over" - after which I got better fast. These were real experiences (I felt the whiskers on my son's face as he kissed me).You'll have to put in the emotional content of these yourself, but the point is that they came from a 'place' (told you it was difficult s) outside my 'control' - and to seek to control this 'place' is an inapproriate aspiration.

Q: "May I speak with that part, please?" A: Don't paint me into no corners s. By not knowing where I'm going, I meant specific obsessions and activities. For example, I am now seriously focused on doing a series of LD paintings - which I wasn't a month ago. I'm inspired, as they used to say. What happens during that series and after it, I have no idea - just as I have no idea about the content of my next LD.

We need to develop other senses? I'm in favour of that - and also in favour of refining the ones I already have.

Mary, I notice from you're profile that you case manage mentally ill people like my son. How would you interpret the WILD (or whatever it was) I had about him?

Kind regards

Alan T

Comment to Stephen Berlin:

In your intro to this forum you say, after Maslow:

"...if you are healthy, with a roof over your head, food in the fridge and a steady income, then and only then will transcendence occur to you as a worthwhile pursuit."

It occurs to me that Maslow might have been my 'Masden' reference - because it now comes to mind that his comment treats this area on a supply and demand basis - i.e. "Maslow crap". The everyday world certainly does run true to the "11th Commandment" of "Where there is a demand there shalt be a supply" s. But something tells me that the world of LD operates otherwise. Lower-income people (such as in undeveloped nations) are rather famous for their mystical propensities. Therefore it seems that being hard-up actually nurtures interest in and access to transcendental matters......?

Kind regards

Alan T.

By "the character you identified with,' I simply meant you in the dream. I will try to be more clear in my rhetoric. "Food theme? Is this a 'chick's thing' about diets and stuff?' No, not a chick thing about diet, more of a self-worth issue, like denying need, feeling undeserving. I like your remarkably open and personal style. I hesitate to interpret another person's dream (I guess I'm not Freudian enough; if I had to pick a theoretical orientation it would be social constructionist, if you don't mind the jargon), but I will share some perspective. Not knowing you well or the situation, I don't know how realistic these thoughts are, however....I am very curious as to what kind of dialogue might result if you invited your son to share what was going on his life at the age of 8--what were his impressions of his life, his family, what was a typical day like for him?--and you in turn shared what life was like for you at that time. I wonder whether new meanings, new perspectives would come into being. I am not necessarily talking about earth plane everyday reality dialogue, though that might be nice. It could also take place in your inner space, maybe the space in which the dream occurred. Sometimes it is very difficult to listen to what one's child has to say about their earlier years (I know this from experience with my own children, one son in particular, but I am getting more accepting), yet the end result over the long run can be fruitful. I feel like I am way out on a limb though with these comments since I don't know the situation. My thoughts on so-called mental illness are not mainstream. It certainly is a driving interest of mine which I can share more on later. "Don't paint me into no corners" That gave me a chuckle. I certainly am not into that, I'd be more likely to want to take down the walls. Perhaps that's no good either--I have my own homework to do.

As always I enjoyed your thought-provoking post.

Incidentally, I am leaving soon to be out of town Jan 27 thru Jan 31--visiting friends and relatives in Maine (NE coast of USA). I may, or may not, be able to visit this forum during that time. If I do not post during the trip, I will return to it shortly after my return, God be willing.

Happy Independence Day! I saw Sydney on the evening news.

Independence day!!! ??? You're talking to a Republican who thinks Australia should cut the fraying colonial apron strings still attaching us to the United Kingdom. And I possess both British and Australian passports! s. No, yesterday was Australia Day - celebrating the Federation of our states. I'm hanging out for the next step - which you guys celebrate on 4 July, I believe? It will come eventually - for us Aussies, too.

I appreciate your thoughts on mental illness. A detailed description of my son's case is an inappropriate subject for this forum - not because it's too personal (I'm in the business of raising public awareness about this) but because it's not about LD.

Have a great time in Maine. One of my favourite painters, Andrew Wyeth, comes from there.

Regards

Alan T.

Reply to Frederick Aardema:

Frederick,

I'm a recent member of this forum, and I noticed that no reply was posted responding to yours. I don't know if you still visit here from time to time, but if you do, I'd appreciate being able to compare notes on LD.

Best wishes

Alan T.

Dear Alan,

A couple of posts back, you stated: "The evidence is only that people can induce LD - not that they can get any ' better' at it - which is what I want to do. It may be that seeking to control this area of experience is inappropriate

• like trying to control the outcome of prayer."

I'm not exactly sure what you're meaning by "better". Could you clarify a bit about what is it that you want to be able to do, that you are striving for, through lucid dreaming? Is it about the spectrum of awareness that you're speaking or is it about control (as in the magical manipulation) of the dream environment? Or is your comment more about balance and navigation (as in maintaining/prolonging the dream state, catching false awakenings and directing intention)?

Thanks for your thoughtful and provocative commentary and for reviving this particular topic!

Keelin

PS: a posting tip: If you're writing a lengthy response, it's best to prepare it in another program (MSWord, for example) and then cut and paste it into the text box on the Forum. That way you can save as you go and run less risk of a startling episode in which all your carefully chosen words vanish as if in a dream!

Reply to Keelin:

By 'better' at it, I guess I mean what anyone else would mean who has experienced this alternative state, i.e. mastery (!)

I thank Stephen et al for the tips on how to stabilise oneself in LD. I'm new to all the spinning and other techniques suggested, so have not yet had the presence of mind to apply them. For me, events in LD always seem to run there own course, and any attempt on my part to 'interfere' has resulted in either termination, or a return to the seemingly prescribed 'plot'.

I take it that you are a lucid dreamer, Keelin. Will you tell me something about what you do in LD; what are the limitations you experience, and what you would like to get better at?

P.S. to Keelin,

Sorry, I've just searched for any of your previous posts, and thereby understood that you are a prolific LDer - so don't trouble yourself to refer me s.

That understood, I report my most recent LD.

I 'wake up' in a small room (maybe a changing room with lockers and stuff?). I have a sense that the dream has been going on for a while, because I am talking to someone who seems to be dressed in a school uniform. As soon as I 'wake up' I assess the situation and decide to do what I usually do, which is jump straight up into the air, trying to get somewhere else. My companion immediately rushes over and grabs on to me, so I find myself shooting through the ceiling and the ceiling above that, carrying the other guy. I realise I am in a multi-story building, but keep on 'crashing through ceilings. Somewhere along the way, the other guy drops away. I get tired, and stop the ascent. I zoom back to the original room, and find the other guy is still there, so I ask him who he is. I try to see his face but it is obscure. I see a mirror, so try to see my own face, but there are hangings in the way, and I don't get to see myself in the mirror. End of LD. I was upset after this. I felt I had failed to.....I don't know...either I should have related to the other figure differently, or have kept on crashing through ceilings. That's what I mean by getting better at it.

Dear Alan,

Prolific, perhaps, but there's always more to explore!

Thank you for clarifying what you meant earlier. When you get a chance to try out those prolonging techniques, you'll have more time for the trials and errors that will no doubt lead to easier navigating within your lucid dream adventures.

One skill I'd personally like to improve is the ability to conjure the clear (and stable!) images of certain people. I deeply cherish dreams of friends and relatives who live at a distance, along with those who live even further afield (as in beloved deceased). The feeling of reconnection such dreams offer comforts my heart and soul as nothing else can. There are also those occasions when I have even more purpose for including the image of a specific person. For example, if someone is ill or grieving, I try to create healing or comforting imagery in my dream, then offer that experience to the person when I wake. Not sure what this accomplishes on a physical plane, but these dreamed offerings have always been received with warmth and gratitude. In addition, the challenge of such directed conjuring provides an incentive that is often strong enough to lead to a lucid dream.

I'd also like to not be so lazy in mid-night! The lure to return to sleep is overwhelming sometimes, despite the fact that I know from experience (thanks to Stephen's Nap Experiments!) that remaining awake awhile will almost always take me where I want to go.

See you there! Keelin

Alan,

Your recent LD (with the companion who grabbed on to you, and you carried him up as you crashed through ceilings) reminded me of my asking you if I could grab onto your coat tails if you were going to move out of unhealthy self-criticism. You said that I was welcome but that I had to understand that you did not know where you were going. I said that a part of you did, and asked if I could speak with that part.

You responded: "sDon't paint me into no corners s. By not knowing where I'm going, I meant specific obsessions and activities. For example, I am now seriously focused on doing a series of LD paintings - which I wasn't a month ago. I'm inspired, as they used to say. What happens during that series and after it, I have no idea - just as I have no idea about the content of my next LD."

It seems to me that one way that everyday reality is different than the dream state is that in everyday reality we move outward to get what we want--we move towards the experience. And in dreams, we inwardly draw the experience to us, using intent.

Keelin,

I mentioned that I hadn't yet used the recommended techniques. Well, last night I did. In the middle of a rather downbeat non-L dream, I remembered about LD and spinning, so I tried it out out. The effect was to bring everything into LD focus very sharply and quickly. From my unawake dreaming state it was a big rush - too big to hang on to, so I woke up. Better next time, huh? Thanks for the valued support. I think this forum is possibly the most innovative and fruitful on the worldwide web.

Mary,

Speaking of self-criticism, I criticised myself unmercifully after that LD. I do so many mea culpas, I should have been a Catholic s. I thought I should have stayed with the other guy and found out why he was there, instead of selfishly rocketing through the rafters in search of ...what? Some imaginary others who might tell me some secrets? It seems to me now that the outcome of that LD has underlined something for me: that the quest (or whatever you choose to call it) is progressed by dealing with what is in front of your nose, not by rushing off in search of 'greener pastures'. What comes to mind is the Sufi story:

A guy was crawling around on his hands and knees in his back yard. His neighbour looked over the fence, and asked him what he was doing.

The guy said, "I'm looking for my keys".

The neighbour said, "Where did you lose them?"

"In the house"

"Why are you looking here, then?"

"There's more light here!"

So Mary, I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

Dear Alan

Pleased to read about your progress. I like these sufi tales. Will you send me your painting?

CU in LD

Yours Ralf

Ralf,

Thanks again for your perceptive critique of the painting. As the artist, I have no idea how the images I create will be interpreted by others - and it's always very supportive to receive intelligent and sensitive responses such as your own, which confirm that I have transmitted what I intended. And while I am distributing laurel leaves, I'd like to add that the standard of intelligence and sensitivity shown by all LD forum members is distinctly above average :-) . It would be interesting to do a study of IQ related to LD.

Dear Alan et al,

I've not heard of any published study on intelligence as it relates to lucid dreaming. However, an issue of Nightlight some time ago included a personality survey report on LI members, and each year at lucid dream camp, we ask participants to fill out the Keirsey personality profile to get some idea of the stuff of which Oneironauts are made. I'll look up the NightLight report and check with LI and let you know the findings.

Just another character, Keelin

To: Keelin,

If one goes to www.keirsey.com, there is a personality profile that anyone can fill out and it is instantly scored. I look forward to hearing about the findings of which you spoke, concerning the personality profiles of LDers.

From: An ENFP

PS. I liked your hints on what to do when one wakes up in the dream.

Mary,

I did the Keirsey test, and smelled a rat straight away. There was no category for 'Divorced Twice' under 'marital status', and I needed to tick both of the boxes in most questions :-)

However, I persevered and was diagnosed as an Idealist/Champion - which fits right in with my astrological sign of Saggitarius, and Dragon (in the Chinese version). I must say that the Keisey written analysis sounded more like me than either of these, though.

I'm going back to find out what your ENFP rating means.

Alan

Thank you again for the "laural leaves". I'll add them to my collection in my hall of fame, next time I'm dreaming. I don't think, that lucid dreamers need to be of more than average intelligence. But those LDers, who work on their experiences, are surely above the average. And everyone, who takes part in the Forum, has at least the ability to use a computer and to write. Isn't that intelligent?

Keep on fooling

Ralf

Funny you should mention computer usage, Ralph. After a 10-day 'dry spell', I had an almost effective dream sign early this morning after applying the 'waking early - then napping' technique. The almost-lucid sign was when I got up, and went into my study to check on my emails and the forums I frequent. I couldn't find my computer! The keyboard was there, but the monitor was missing. "What the hell have I done with the monitor?" I said aloud, gazing around the room in bemusement. That's when I really woke up. Could be I'm spending too much time on the net?

Alan

Sounds like a hint. Maybe you should take a look at the "real" world. But concerning lucidity it seems, that our dream machinery sometimes cooperates, in that it invents and presents dreamsigns.

Ralf

Alan T,

Monitor missing? Keyboard still there? What I'm hearing is: Read less, write more. Of the myriad of things I mused about yesterday, one was: Were Alan T to write a book, what would the title be? What would the abstract look like?

Dream on, Mary