THE CASE OF THE UNFOCUSED WOULD-BE LUCID DREAMER

Paul notes that he spends too much time in theoretical discussions and not enough time in lucid dreaming. While I agree that Paul could limit his boundless curiosity, and instead focus on the particular goal of having lucid dreams (i.e.,...to do WHAT exactly?), it appears that Paul could use some help with applying what he knows with focussed intention to a well-defined goal.

In particular, Paul writes: Quote:

Last night I had a Kalani dream. ... I remember I was considerably frustrated that in spite of the course and years of effort, I still could not have lucid dreams at will. A case of dream imitating life!

... I am deciding to withdraw from further forum involvement, not to return until I have learned to dream lucidly at will, if possible. So far I have not increased my frequency, for all the MILDing, prospective memory work, reflection-intention etc. that I do. Much as I enjoy these discussions (Can you tell?), it's pretty much an academic exercise if I'm not really getting anywhere in practice. Does that make any sense? And again: Quote:

I was dreaming about lucid dreaming, but not actually lucid dreaming (I really hate it when that happens!)

Paul appears to be forgetting several points we discussed at length at Kalani. First of all, Paul, if you aren't getting results, there must be a reason why not! I can guess some of the why from your posts above. First of all, you emphasize your feeling disappointed by having a dream about lucid dreaming in which you didn't become lucid. Can you paraphrase what I said about that at Kalani?

So, no more 'theoretical questions' Paul, but if you really want to achieve your goal of voluntary lucidity, DO answer my questions about your specific practice. AND do share your results and try to put into practice what you know (or at least what you have heard, anyway. ;)

So: Please

1. Describe what you want to do with your NEXT lucid dream.
2. Explain what you do (or are supposed to do) when you wake up from a dream and notice a missed dreamsign.

Mahalo, Stephen

aloha dreamers, Sorry for my absence; I've been moving, traveling, spending times in other worlds, so to speak. my dreamworld is currently a little nightmarish and non-lucid, but I'm using my nightmare images as a dreamsign, so hopefully next time I encounter these horrifying images, I will be lucid and thoughtful. good luck to paul, hang in there. I'm with you. jane

Jane,

Thanks, and I with you. Hope all your travels were productive and atraumatic.

Paul

Aloha, all!

See? Stephen agrees with me!

Stephen,

1)In my next lucid dream I want to work on this: To shake off the conviction that my dream self is dreaming the dream, that "It's my dream and I can do what I want!". You talk about this sub-lucid state in "Lucid Dreaming" (Yes, I finally found a copy!) I'd like to move beyond this fixation, as I posted to Peter today.

2)The next time I dream about lucid dreaming, I will remember to realize that I am dreaming!

I really did learn this, and I do practice it on awakening from my dreams nightly. For some reason this one dream really annoyed me. I don't recall what you may have said about this specific dreamsign at Kalani. Sorry. Must have been asleep.

And as for theoretical questions, I promise to keep them to myself--sometimes.

Thanks for the feedback. Practice, practice, practice...

Paul

Last night I had a dream that I was on my way to a party. My friend and I picked up a hitchhiker. A young man in a brown coat. He looked so familiar to me. He kept saying the same thing about me. I realized it was GORDIE. We laugh and hug after recognizing each other. And then we talk about what we have been doing since Kalani.

Paul- Iwas reading in CONTROL YOUR DREAMS that Gregory Sparrow (who made a connection between meditation and lucid dreaming) learned that if he meditated in order to have lucid dreams he wouldn't. But if he just meditated for the sake of meditation it increased his lucidity. I also recall that Dr LaBerge said (either in a book or during one of the lectures) that if he tired too hard he wouldn't lucid dream. If he didn't say that I'm sure he will correct me and I will apologize now. My point is that perhaps you are trying much to hard. Like playing tennis--you have to loosen your grip.

Lee,

Thanks for the suggestions. Actually, I don't think much about it until bedtime. Then I usually read something about it to help set my intention, do some relaxation or meditation to bring on sleep, and practice MILD when I wake from a dream. That's about it.

How do you practice? Are you playing any prospective memory games during the day?

Paul

Paul,

Whenever I see new writing (ie newspaper, title of a book, a note from someone etc.) I look at it three times. I want to creat the habit so when I am dreaming and see writing I will look at it three times.

The last week I have been setting my intention on remember to remain still upon awakening , reciting my dream and then writing it down or at least writing key notes.

Lee

Lee,

Try out mindmaps if you havent, to map the dreams, and maybe reduce all that writing.

http://www.mind-map.com/mindmaps_definition.htm

"i linger in the doorway of alarm clock screaming monsters calling my name let me stay where the wind will whisper to me where the raindrops as they're falling tell a story" -Evanescence

Lee,

I just read an abstract in the journal DREAM that says that people who use CPAP for sleep apnea, as I do, tend to have disrupted REM and dream patterns. I wonder if this affects lucid dreaming also. I might try a night without the machine to see what happens.

I like your exercises. I don't journal my ordinary dreams anymore, but I still have pretty good recall.

Last night before sleep I was reading the book CREATIVE DREAMING. Sure enough, I had a dream where I was working for an ad agency. I had to come up with a campaign against insurance fraud. I worked out this commercial where a guy is seen sledge-hammering his car, faking a fall in a bank, etc. The voice over then asks " Are you accident prone?" Then the scene switches to a jail cell. The guy is inside, the door slams shut, and the voice says. "We have a place where you'll be safe!" Then appear the words "Insurance fraud is a CRIME!" End of commercial.

Pretty creative, huh? A good example of how dreams can be incubated. That's why I usually read about lucid dreaming before going to bed.

wordswordswords, Paul

Last night I had was dreaming I was teaching a class. I look down at my notes and they are blank. There is name plate on my desk and it says "INTERESTING" I look away and when I look at it again it says something like "INGTG" (no vowels) Yes! I'm dreaming I tell myself. And the strangest thing happened---I had the same experience of being drawn into or up a tunnel of white brightness as I did in Kalani (after taking Holy Moly #4)

I remembered that Jason Storm told me the next time that happened to not direct it...just follow it.

So I did. It was an incredible feeling. Difficult to describe in words. I found myself in the next dream scene on a gondola with a gondalier. I was intentionally looking for signs with writing on them just to do a "reality check". Most of the signs were blank but I was feeling really good about just knowing they were dream signs. The other dream personas drifted away with a "yeah, yeah we know you know attitude." I remember opening a book and the pages were blank and I said something like "don't write your history books in dreams." I then decided to fly. Normally it takes me a little running start but I just took off (like Mighty Mouse) and found myself in that strange wonderful tunnel. Although it was a sensation of being pulled I was never frightened. It was so delightful I could have stayed there all night. And at one point I thought I wonder if I can spin in the tunnel and I could.

When I woke up I was so hyped I couldn't go back to sleep for an hour and half. I find it interesting that the last time I had lucid dream (right before Kalani) I had gotten to bed the same time and woke up almst the same time. Approximately 3.5 to 4 hours later.

Last night before I went to bed I had watched a video of an old YOU & YOUR HEALTH video on Dream Disorders. I told myself i was tired so was just going to sleep but put my trusty pen and dream sheet by my bed just in case.

Paul-

PS The video did talk about sleep apnea and did say it effected your REM sleep.

Lee

Great conversation! soooooooo interesting. Just a quick dip to get wet in the Forum. I'll post more when I have something of content to share. I wrote a long note 10 days ago that didn't post. In short it said that I had a Kalani dream and one of my dreams while there (the night I had a really lucid dream) turned out to be precognitive.

Glad you're hanging in there Paul! I would surely miss your banter, reflections, and productive insight, as well as the comments you invite.

Annelise

Lee,

Hooray! What a cool LD! I can't help wondering what's at the end of that tunnel of light. I also like how you were boring your dream characters with your success at recognizing dream signs. I think they were just jealous.

Dream on!

Annelise, Aloha!

So glad to hear from you. Keep on a-postin'!

Paul

Thank you Paul

And Aloha Annelise!

Keelin- What happened to our T-shirts?

Hi!

I had an interesting dream, not lucid, but really instructive as to how dream stories are produced. The dream began with me "waking up" in a car on an urban back street--I believe that at some level I must have remembered I had just fallen asleep in bed (this was after an awakening in the morning)-- and now here I was waking up in a car someplace else (The next time that happens, I'll remember to realize I'm dreaming!). Anyway, my mind constructed the following story on the spot: I must have been driving and fallen asleep at the wheel, and was now waking up. Since that happens on the highway, that's where I must have been driving, obviously. I must have been going to visit my brother, and this must be New York. So I must have gone over the railing and landed here on this street. That being a fairly destructive scenario, the front of my car had to be bashed in--lo and behold, I immediately saw that it was! Wha' d'ya know?

I went on and on thru the dream constructing a long tale step by step in retrograde, all to explain how I woke up in my car. Upon awakening for real, I could see how my mind works in dreams as clear as day, one explanation requiring another, and the dream building on itself. It's really amazing, when you think about it!

Anyway, just thought I'd share that.

Aloha!

Paul

Aloha Lee!

We haven't ordered up another batch of t's yet, but you (of all people) can rest assured... I will REMEMBER!

;) Eleni K.

PS: House for Sale: Luau/BBQ pit, sunken hot tub.

Last night I wore the Nova dreamer. I had a dream I was going out and I knew I was wearing a mask. So I assumed I was wearing a "lone ranger" type mask because I was going to a costume party. Which I wasn't Hmmm.

Lee,

So close! I can see that anti-sociable types like myself have an advantage. I would never even imagine being invited to a costume party, let alone be going as the Lone Ranger! Therefore, I must be dreaming. I actually did have an LD where I thought I was wearing my mask, since it was dark, but realized I wouldn't be up walking around with a mask on, which triggered lucidity.

Anyway, that's really just a step away from success. Now, the next time...what?

Paul

Paul,

I too would never choose to go to as the Lone Ranger. Interesting enough my dream scene started off as if I were "searching for a dream scene." It was like a camera panning around for a place to lock into. A place to have a dream. And I remember thinking "Okay, I'll find a bar or something." And then I found myself in my dream body walking to the costume party.

The next time I find myself: looking for a dream scene, wearing a mask, going to a bar or a costume party I will know I am dreaming

Lee

Well I should hope so!

Paul

Last night I wore the Nova Dreamer. Had a dream that I was thinking "what would I do if I were in a lucid dream" and I began to imagine myself flying. Suddenly I realized I just might already be in a lucid dream. So I jumped up. And sure enough I was dreaming. Interesting because the last few weeks the Nova Lights haven't caused me to wake up. I have somehow recognize (obvisiously with the Dreamer) I am dreaming. Hmmm

Last night I had a dream that I was on a date with a guy. On the date he took me up to a big window in a very tall building. At that time he stepped out of the window and grabbed my hand and said "Let's try this." I think he was trying to impress me by showing me he was a lucid dreamer. So I just began to fly too. He was very surprised that I was a lucid dreamer too. we flew al around and at one point I said "I'm glad you are a lucid dreamer. this was fun." So I wasn't really lucid--I just knew I was a lucid dreamer in a dream that I was lucid. And I could only relate this to other dreamers without sounding "nutty."

Lee,

Sounds like a lucid dream to me, if you knew you were "...in a dream..." as you say. How was it not? Just curious.

Paul

Paul, I might consider it PreLucid because although I was aware I was in a dream and it was vivid....there was no dream control. I guess we'll have to ask the Master Himself---the incredible Stephen LaBerge.... Lee

Hi, Lee!

It sounds like you had some very limited awareness that it was a dream, but I myself wouldn't call it a lucid dream. You still seemed to be behaving as if you and your dream-companion were actually hanging out together in an environment operating under Dreamland Rules. This confusion is pretty common-- we know what dreaming is, we know about lucidity, and we have a non-lucid dream that reflects ideas related to that. The topic of dreams and lucidity can certainly make its way into our dreams, and a dim awareness that you're dreaming can inform your dream without breaking to the surface of your conscious thoughts. And you can certainly dream you are a lucid dreamer without actually being lucid.

I think the last holdout on the road to real dream awareness is the dream-ego-- that model of the self than runs around in our dreams. We can somehow get behind the idea that we're "in" some kind of thing called a dream, but the last stubborn false illusion is that the illusory creature walking around in that world is you. And those dream-companions quite naturally seem worth talking to as if they're real, too. It's a stubborn model to dispel.

The dreams that really crack me up are where "I'm" speaking to a group of listeners in quite a reasonable and accurate manner on the subject of lucid dreaming! On and on I go, in great detail to my captive audience, with a command of the subject that withstands waking scrutiny afterwards. I've even been known to make such lectures more colorful by demonstrating various dreamsigns the group, such as watches and writing changing, light switches failing, jumping in air and floating down, telekinesis, etcetera...my dream-ego convincing the rapt dream-audience that everything around us was a dream, but ironically, not ever convincing the real me who was doing the dreaming!

I also would like to mention that dream control itself is not what defines lucidity... lucidity is the awareness that you're in a mentally constructed state. Dream control is one of our choices during lucidity, one that is achieved with varying levels of success and effectiveness. It does often follow that upon true lucidity we do begin to make choices, based on the realization we have more and different choices than we thought. Control can therefore follow from lucidity, but it does not define it.

But meanwhile back at your dream date...you had a fun and intriguing dream that started to wander into lucidity, without actually getting there. For full lucidity, it's not really enough to sort of act like it's a dream, or even say 'it's a dream' if you've somehow forgotten, in that moment, just what a dream really is.

Interesting stuff, no? The next time you have a dream like that, you might well be able to catch what your mind is trying to tell you, and make a different kind of leap... not just out a window (although you needn't rule that out!)

All the best,

Reverie

PS-- a qualification to my post, above: It wasn't my dream, Lee, so I don't know how aware you really were. I suspect there are times when we might be lucid but lazy-- where for some reason we are carried along by what's happening, and we don't ever seem to think about departing from the program. But those don't usually seem like true lucid dreams to me. My sense is if we really know it's a dream, we don't usually carry on with such flawed and funky thinking. ;)

bonne nuit,

Reverie (doing a quick but sincere Reality Check)

I would agree with both your messages. I was aware but not to the degree I would claim "lucid" or perhaps it was a "lazy" one. In the previous posted message I would say I was lucid--although not as lucid as a lot of other dreams..I was aware I was dreaming to the point I was making conscious choices. Which is what I mean by "control."

Lee,

You seem to be relating your degree of lucidity to your perception of dream control. Maybe, though, you're not as much of a control freak as some of us are, and can experience lucid dreams without exerting any (or very little) dream control at all. Perhaps you are selling yourself short on your lucid dreaming abilities. My understanding is that dream control and lucidity are independent features of dreams, although control may be easier in lucid dreams than otherwise.

I wish that I was better able to just go with the dream flow more often and be a silent witness rather than feeling like I had all these decisions to make. That's just like my waking life. Boo!

Paul

Paul- So make a decision to decide not to make decisions.

Lee,

Maybe I will--or won't. I can't decide!

Paul

Just returnd from Kona. I thought of you guys and Kalani!

Lee, when even the dream(date) tells you that you are lucid - why not believe it? Perhaps your expectations to the level of lucidity and clarity are set to high? I know this from myself, as in all the lucid dreams I have had that were induced from MILD or the NovaDreamer I was pretty stupid and unreflective - and the detail in the dreams were also disappointingly low. Another factor that may come into play is in what REM period you had your dream. If I remember correctly (?) the brain is more awake while asleep in the later rem periods. If you had your dream in one of the first REM-periods that could be a possible explanation as to why you do not feel fully satisfied with the level of lucidity.

nikolaj

Paul, Maybe it is not so much about control specifically as it is about "will" i.e. you must excert your will in order to stay lucid. For instance, if you want to go with the flow and see what the dream has to offer rather than controlling the substance of the dream you "will" yourself to go with the flow - rather than letting go of your will completely and risk loosing awarenes/lucidity. Of course it is more difficult to "chose to do nothing" and remain aware rather than keeping yourself awake in the dream by constantly reflecting on decisions you have to make. But the choice to do nothing is sometimes a choice worth making ;-) On another note this approach also reaps rewards IRL. For instance, I used to be a total control freak and had a tendency to tell people what to do - often when it wasn't really necessary. Please note that I don't advocate total passivity but only intervening when you have to.

Pleasant dreams!

nikolaj

P.S. I hope I did not misunderstand you or told you too much that you allready knew.

Brenda wrote: "I think the last holdout on the road to real dream awareness is the dream-ego-- that model of the self than runs around in our dreams. We can somehow get behind the idea that we're "in" some kind of thing called a dream, but the last stubborn false illusion is that the illusory creature walking around in that world is you. And those dream-companions quite naturally seem worth talking to as if they're real, too. It's a stubborn model to dispel."

Interesting thought! I once had an LD that I think might relate to that - though it might perhaps sound a little far off. I was walking around in my dream and feeling a little disappointed that most of the dream characters felt like hollow extras: they were not real people, had no "soul" and were therefore of no interest to me. But sometimes there are interesting characters in our dreams that even seem "more real" than most people we might meet in our waking lifes. I decide to look for those people in my dream, and suddenly I could recognize them among all the "extras". I gradually became more and more lucid and as the scenes changed I realized that there were really only one: all the "real" people in the dream were one and the same - which sort of makes sence, if you think about it, as there is really only one dreamer after all. I also noticed that there was only one "real" at a time and even if I thought there were noone he or she was always there hidden or center stage. I noticed that the "real" people in the dream had a sort of pulsating blue and purple light in their chest. I had the thought that it was really somekind of "gate" or portal and that I must enter it. I approached one such character (now we were in a rowing boat with some "extras") he invited me to "jump in" and I was just about to throw myself in, but at the moment of truth I lost courage because I felt afraid that I might "loose myself" (the dream ego?) if I jumped in. Moments later I lost lucidity.

nikolaj

(Sorry if I am getting to far away from the initial topic!)

Last night I had a dream that I was at some camp in the woods (not Kalani) and I was late. When I got to the group everyone was watching a basketball game being taped. And Dr LaBerge was there. I had to tell him that my friend left my car door open so I had to walk back to lock it. And I was going to be even later. He was very understanding....and the dream continued.

I can't believe LaBerge was in my dream and I wasn't aware---funny---next time...

Where is every body? This is very unfair, since I never post a message. Wish I could, it would give Peter something to monitor.I will try living dangerously:Are there any works in science or Art, ( could not be psychiatry that treats the visionary powers as derangements as opposed to derangements of the artistic abilities) that value sanity reached? Snow screen:no picture, intelligent wiring of a human being: We get a picture...sound too, education...abilities...full self-monitoring, all our dreams...and an open law court to decide all this. Art and sciences might be more positive for humans than deseases and sciences which I beleive are dangerous to humankind' first steps in space, time, energy... from our little solar system:But that should not stop us from posting.

Jann:

Thank you for the sentiment. I too would like to have something to moderate, and not so much because I need something to do but because that would mean that posts, and the necessary thought behind those posts, were being made about lucid dreaming. It can be worrisome to sign on to this forum day in and day out and see no posts.

Does this mean that my fellow oneironauts, the cream of the crop of lucid dreamers, are no longer interested in having, sharing, or increasing their knowledge about lucid dreaming? Could it be that they are all just "too busy" navigating their waking lives to find time or inclination to consider lucid dreaming? Has the fog of frustration so clouded their minds that dreamers have chosen to abandon the quest for better, longer lucid dreams? Or, conversely, has everyone had such great success with their dreaming that they no longer feel a need to share/learn more on this forum? These questions hang in the air about me whenever I face another post-free day, with nothing to "moderate.'

Best of dreams,

Peter

Hey, Peter and all.

Don't be so frustrated. I know that feeling. We had quiet phases in the forum on and off in the last years.

For me at least it is I'm busy with making dreams come true in my waking life. It is dreaming and awakening, I tell you. We achieved a lot in the run of this year. I passed my osteopathy exam and will open my practice on November 22 - feel free to come along, in LD at least... So a lot of offline work to be done, with all the financial hazards you can encounter. It means to not get much sleep. I simply don't have the mind to dedicate myself to lucid dreaming these days. I so looked forward to this year's ASD psiberdreaming conference. I registered. But all I did was two or three posts. No dreaming, no experiments. Frustrating, in a way. I had to work every day in the last month. Actually this is my first free day after September 18. And it isn't really "free", but I'm free to work on invitations and on graphics of my business card today.

This isn't really meant as self pity, but as a reply to your frustration. A feedback on reasons. I would really love to have more and longer and ever more intriguing, meaningful, playful LDs. It simply doesn't seem to be the best time to work on them now.

But one thing I can say: All the experiences with lucidity in dreams helped me greatly to make my life's dreams come true. Even if there would never again be a lucid dream, I can say my life is full of light, I feel so much more alive today, than as before I started the quest for lucidity.

Keep on good work, all you oneironauts at TLI forum!!!

Ralf

P.S. we had an online LD project with Harry Bosma of ASD in August / September. Five weeks. A very motivating time, I reached my top score in lucid dreaming frequency and felt to be "back" after all the waking life work in this year. So I'm confident I won't loose my lucid dreaming skills, but can continue work, when everything settles somewhat in my life.

Maybe that would be kind of a push for some dreamers here to have a definite project with clear goals. Maybe even with a time - schedule. I remember when I made up the "Prolonging" thread in "Learning Lucid Dreaming" and gathered all the information of forum dreamers. That was a great time to focus on a special task. (Although we had not set a definite deadline for that thing).

Ralph:

Thanks for the welcome update, and the encouraging words. I only hope that the rest of the dreamers are filling their waking lives as thoroughly as you are yours ' congratulations! And that's genuinely inspiring that you can still achieve LD's even after such an overwhelming year.

I'll take your advice and exercise patience while posting traffic continues to be light.

Thanks for sharing!

Peter

When you are new here, the obvious thing to do is to start reading the archives. After some hours of reading one may get the feeling that most questions - if not all - seem to have been covered allready. People maybe don't ask questions because they think they only need to read some more in the archives and their particular question will be covered.

So perhaps putting up a big "stupid and obvious qustions allowed" sign - will let the forum be less formal and come alive again? After all, if it is true that the more you think about lucid dreaming, the more likely you are to have one - even if it means posting or answering an "old" question - err... you know... (quote, "The Dude")

Ob. reality test: "How did You get here?"

Nico:

First:

*** STUPID AND OBVIOUS QUESTIONS ALLOWED ***

Now, though I appreciate that you've read the forum's archives (bless you for finding that task obvious!), rest assured that repeating old questions, especially in the name of firing up new conversation, is more than welcome.

I believe that, though this forum has probably discussed lucid dreaming more thoroughly and thoughtfully than any other site, to date we've barely thawed the iceberg's tip. There is so much more to learn and discover together about lucid dreaming, even if it means re-igniting long dormant conversations.

And you are correct: the act of thinking about LD'ing does help bring them about. What better way to promote thought than to participate in conversations about them? Reading what has already been said is certainly valuable, but contributing one's own thoughts, dreams, techniques, theories, or critiques is potentially priceless ' both for you and the rest of the forum participants.

"nuff said,

Peter

Hello Peter, Ralf and all.

Looks like the forum has heated up this week. Good to see things moving again. I, myself, am a habitual lurker and don't contribute as much as I could. I too, I have been busy navigating a busy waking life, challenged with ten-hour work days devoted to computer systems upgrades. While it has been difficult, I have been as diligent as possible with my dream work for fear of losing my lucid dreaming skills. Thankfully, I have continued to be rewarded with one lucid dream per week despite the hectic schedule.

Throughout this busy and hectic time, I've found it quite useful applying things learned through lucid dreaming to relieve useless fears and anxieties I encounter in my waking life. Much to my success and happiness, things have turned around for me and life is looking positive again. I even had my first day off in over a month yesterday. I was rewarded with a lucid dream to boot!

Lucid dreaming has improved my sleep habits and motivated me to drop many of my vices, thereby improving my general health and well-being. I am currently undergoing a self-motivated quit-smoking program and I'm confident I'll pass this hurdle as well, thanks to motivation gained through dreams. Waking life is more malleable than we believe.

Rich M.

Dear Ralf,

Congratulations on passing your osteopathy exam! And may you always recognize you are dreaming should you ever find yourself back in school. ;) I am certain that your gift for living with awareness will be with you always and will guide you in your new endeavors. Best of all possibilities to you!

Warm aloha light, Keelin

Dear Rich, and Oneironauts one and all,

Just a few days ago, I received an email from a fellow who was having difficulty understanding why anyone would want to put effort into learning how to lucid dream. The benefits to waking life that you've posted here are excellent examples of one the most valuable applications of lucid dreaming. Thanks for sharing and inspiring us all!

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin

Anyone still around but me from Kalani, May '03? Lee, are you still around? All these posts from other Dreamcamps make me miss you.

Paul