Dear Linus,

While annihilating your dream opponents may lead to a feeling of omnipotence in the Land of Odd, where is the benefit to your waking life? When your waking world companions don't act the way you want them to, how will you handle it? What is the cost to you if you have no flexibility in your responses, no practice at creative resolution?

I admit I don't always act in my dreams the way I do in my waking life (or the other way around), but it seems to me that being lucid in a dream offers an extraordinary opportunity that can lead to something powerful and positive in my waking life. We are not always able to have complete control over our environment or the people around us (in either realm), but we can learn to respond to difficult and challenging situations with a heart and spirit that acknowledges and promotes the best of all possible outcomes.

At the risk of repeating an earlier post on this subject, I'll just say that it is generally agreed that the most beneficial and integrative form of control one can aspire to in dreaming is "self control". It is one of the sweetest gems that can actually be brought back from the world of dreams and incorporated into waking life.

When I entertain the view of my dreamed companions as aspects of my self (after all, who's mind conjured them up?), I tend to treat them with more compassion and a greater sense of humor that if I label them as "other". And when I wake in the morning to this version of the dream we call "reality", I can't help but see the similarities. And that has a rather remarkable effect on the choices I make daily. I feel empowered, knowing I can bring serenity to a situation or add chaos. It's a conscious choice if I am living my waking life in a "lucid" state.

There are many applications to be explored through lucid dreaming. With your ability to be a lucid dreamer at your young age, I'm sure you will go far!

Wishing you the best this lucid dreaming journey has to offer, Keelin

Hola hola!

"While annihilating your dream opponents may lead to a feeling of omnipotence in the Land of Odd, where is the benefit to your waking life?"

Ehh" I don't know. smiles I just feel happy. The feeling of total control is incredible. Or, well not really "total control". I mean much control.

"When your waking world companions don't act the way you want them to, how will you handle it?"

Well not the same way as in my lucid dreams. Of course. But that's what I think is the beauty of lucid dreaming. In your LD's you don't need to be the way you are in the real world. You don't need to take in mind what other people think and want and so on. You can do whatever you want to. And if I wake up filled with joy and happiness I'm of course more tolerant to other people and better of handling social conflicts and such during the day. If you don't mind I would like to make a parallel to computer games. Many people say children become violent if they play brutal computer games. But I don't believe that for a second. Of course, children who already are mentally disturbed can be negative influenced by playing brutal computer games. But the computer games aren't the reason. Not a chance! And if you are a "normal" (normal meaning not having some kind of mental disorder) person I instead think it can be something god. Because if you can take out your anger on pixels you don't need to do it on humans. I mean it's the same thing with dreams.

And I don't really see what's so fun with being social in your LD's. That's something you can experience in your awaken world so why waste valuable dream time on it? Like one fun dream I had in the beginning of the summer. I was in this LD and was sitting in the coach in our living room. There where also my father, my sister, my brother and his girlfriend, plus some more people, some familiar some not. I had been lucid almost from the moment the dream started. The cool thing was that I earlier this morning had had a lucid dream, and shortly thereafter I had dreamed a NLD where I told my brother about the LD I had had. Now I sat in the couch and told my sister about these earlier dreams. I tried to make her understand how cool and weird it was that I was here in a LD telling her about a NLD where I had told my brother about a LD. But she didn't understand. And then I thought: "Why the hell do I sit here talking to myself? That's a person created by me. It's not my sister. What do I get from this?"

Hi Linus,

If it was my dream, I would be curious what part of the dream my brother could understand and what part of the dream wasn't understood by my sister Or if the dream could give me an explanation or dreamanswer. The different way f.i. I relate to my brother or my sister in the dream and/or in real life. Otherwise I would see my brother and my sister as male or female parts of my personality. And if there is an ongoing family situation about a subject , in what way would all family remembers react on your LD's etc. Do you share with friends from school about your dreamexperiences? Hermine

Hi! Today I had a NLD we were meting in Brazil. I think I met others campmates other then Hermine and Robert but I don't remember very much. I was at a very nice swimmingpool when Hermine and Robert appear. They were already gone to some nice places and Hermine was telling me how nice those places were and that I should go there too. Robert was caring a car CD player. He told me it was broken and that Toko had told him she knew someone that could fixed in Rocinha (a very poor county in Rio de Janeiro). I was very impressed by that. It was a nice dream. If there are anything I could do to help the group meet here in Brazil it will be a pleasure. Beatrice

Hello Hermine!

In the NLD I had just awaken and I only mentioned my LD for my brother at the breakfast table. I didn't tell him so much and he just said something like: "Ok, cool." And then we begun talking about something else. In the LD when I told my sister she listened to me as if she wanted to understand but just couldn't. I can't link this to the reality. I haven't seen my brother nor my sister since the middle of July. I think it's pretty cool that you can take out most of the happenings and feelings in you NLDs and prettily easy link it to things that have happened to you the last days. But I don't believe you can do the same with you LDs. Well, I don't know if you can, but I know I can't. Because in my lucid dreams it's the "awaken" me who are the reason for what's happening. Not my unconscious'

Hi, Hermine

I'm just browsing and reading some posts more focussed. What's going on? We have won 8:1. I played as a defender. You see: Our defense has been very good. The one goal has been a penalty goal. (But it wasn't me to play the foul. I never would!!) Then my son has been with me for a week, afterwards I had a full week working in night shift at the hospital. In the middle of August I set up a new goal for LD - frequency: 12 per month. In July I reached 6, which is my personal best score. But this month I won't reach it. I only had one until now. I don't know where from to get the time and tranquillity to work on LD these days. I'm happy, that I have the time to browse through the ca. 70 postings cueing up on my server. It feels good to share thoughts and experiences again.

Alan: I'm so sorry, that I didn't take the time and send you examples of my dreams for your article. But I'm pleased that you work on the subject. There seems to be a light in the deep shadows, you've written about...

The "transcendence" thread is very interesting, and somewhat funny, too. I'm not sure, what "transcendence" means. But I sometimes feel, as if I'm transcending. Transcending feels like embracing and letting go for me. Seems, that my transcendence is very emotional these days. In former times (years / decades) it has been more mental.

Beatrice: Maybe you are so often lucid, because you reward yourself with sweet dream - sex. I don't agree with Joe, that dream - sex is masturbation. It is better... Dream sex, just like waking life sex can be a way to transcend myself!

I'll continue tomorrow...

Hi Ralf! You know what just happen? I just wake up from a nap and I had a NLD that you were sending me a message concerning about emotional and sex things. You just did it! Woo woo. I don't have a LD for more then a week, I was having like 4 per week. Maybe too many things going on my daily life. Beatrice

Ralf:

Let me clarify my stance...

I do think dream sex is masturbation. As we all know, LD is the most realistic form of virtual reality going. LD sex is the most realistic form of masturbation, fantasy with tactile feedback....

Now, if two dreamers have a mutual sexual experience within their dreams(woo woo meter ticking off!), this would not be masturbation.

zzzzZZZZ(I should reward myself more often) z z z Joe

Hi Linus,

My statement "The conscious is in the unconscious" Your awareness is awake all the time, you will find in the unconscious whatever is ready to be seen/discovered I guess. You play a discovery game with yourself. I believe you like games, like computergames. You can be playful and play an undercover agent and explore your unconscious... I am curious what will happen , let us know by the time. XXX files of Linus, worldwide spread! If ever I am detective in my dreams I try to become part of FBI and visit Scandinavia in search of you........ Hermine

Hi Ralf, Beatrice and all memorized, Great Ralf, your soccergame, you seemed to be a good defender, are you still playing or exercising? Your ld's are mostly to happen after a nap, and Beatrice gave a lot of examples of her passionate dreams during those naps. I think all of us have to be able to take a restful moment during the day and take a nap. I try this in my weekends and feel glad to experience more of my dreamlife then. Hermine PS Last night I heared a tape about soulmates, part of the text" The eyes are the windows of the soul" Last Sunday in my dream came the text" The eyes are the mirrors of the soul" The dream was related to a teacher, dance and theater and a horse in the dream which was in full light, at the end of the dream I switched off the light. In the meanwhile I realized someone touched my hands, during the dream and I wrote down the name. I dreamed more about hands after the Maui conference than I did before May.

Beatrice: Thanks for your dream report. These are the experiences I "need". I'm looking for ESP ("Anomalous Perception") in my dreams. And there are some of these perceptions. And I want to use lucid dreams as a platform for ESP - experiments. This reminds me of our continuing

MUTUAL MAUI DREAMING EXPERIMENT

I want to meet you all!! Let's say September 1st, 1159 pm Maui Time. Which place? I think the pool would be alright again. Anyone hydrophobic? OK?

I'll meet you at midnight (Aaaaahaahaa), under the moonlight... (Wasn't that Bee Gee's?)

Joe, maybe you can answer my last question.

I agree, that there is a difference between physical and dream - sex. But be aware, that physical "mutual" sex is sometimes not more than two people masturbating. Nasty boy! Shut off now, Ralf! Why not love myself, be it awake or in dreams or in dreams awake? A mutual dream experience with my beloved Astrid? That would be fine! But how should I motivate myself, when making love awake feels so good?

Hermine,

I'm still exercising. But now the sporting season starts again in two weeks. I'm playing table tennis, since I was ten. This is my "main" sport. I have to get into training again. Our team has just ascended, and everyone will be looking at my results, because I'm in the first position. (Ralf, ya ol' swank!)

Hope to meet you all in LD

Yours Ralf

Greetings, All:

Don't get me wrong, Ralf... I subscribe to the notion "There is nothing wrong with singing solo..."

I feel that there is a fine line between someone with a very active imagination and a Lucid dreamer...The only difference is halucinatory tactile feedback...This goes for sex, flying, or whatever other activity one can come up with...Don't appologize, we are all adults here (well, physically anyway).

And if one's imagination is that powerful, the tactile feedback is achieved as well...Is this any different that the state of consciousness achieved by shaman monks who invest years of meditation to basically psych out their minds into "artificial" sensory input, or the lack of?

I dig the ESP stuff, and appologize for not partaking in the shared experience. Being on the opposite side of the world does pose logistical problems in terms of circadian rhythms. Though an engineer and scientist, I am becoming more open minded, really. Did you read of the fruit (or mineral) guessing experiment a few months ago? Why dont you write the name of a common gemstone on a slip of paper and put it in your freezer. I will attempt to read it.

Table tennis was the key in LeBerge's eye discovory..I like it, too, maybe next time...

Here's one fo ya's...I am always asked what good is it (LD'ing that is)....Getting to know yourself better works with some, the healing aspect works with others...the shortcut to shamen consciousness raises some eyebrows...How do you all respond to that one?

zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ(It is just the most interesting thing I know of on this planet) z z z z z Joe

Hi Ralf. How nice I can contribute to your experience. The dream I had yesterday was not passionate but about an issue, a message you sent me that was very like the message you sent me during the same period.

"Beatrice: Maybe you are so often lucid, because you reward yourself with sweet dream - sex. I don't agree with Joe, that dream - sex is masturbation. It is better... Dream sex, just like waking life sex can be a way to transcend myself!"

I was quite impressed because it was with the right person, time and subject. Maybe in the future people won't need internet anymore...

Beatrice

Ralf: No worries, mate, the article's finished and with Stephen for blessing. Congratulations on the soccer masacre. The last time someone emailed me from England, they actually asked me why the Brtish couldn't win anything anymore - so I know that sport can be an extremely important activity for some humans. As for trancendence, it seems to me that it is to be measured in the moments of life that you remember with maximum respect. The trouble is - we humans being what we are - such moments for individuals vary in content and quality, so trancendence may not be what most people think it is. For example, Afghanistan is currently under the control of an authority which has just passed a law that all Hindu cirizens must wear a yellow badge. This authority is composed of individuals whose "moments of maximum respect" have led them to believe that pinning a yellow badge on everyone who doesn't agree with them is a justifiable action. How would you like it if they pinned a yellow badge on you and your family?

Beatrice: If there was a horse in a race that was called "Beatrice might dream of Ralf sending her a message about emotion and sex things', I think you would be wise to put money on it. But I also have found that lucid dreaming frequency declines when the outside world demands an extra quotient of attention.

Joe: Is dream sex masturbation? I don't know the answer, because every time I pursue a female in my lucid dreams, she evades my ardent clutches. But I agree with you, theoretically.

Hermine: I certainly don't find the "discovery game" a playful process. That makes suffering worth nothing.

Love to all,

Alan T.

Hi Alan,

Maybe another name then 'discovery game'. I believe lucid dreaming is a playful process. Flying,tumbling,spinning all kind of movement in a dream feels playful for me. To explore the unconscious might be less playful, but you can make it as pleasureable as you want to. For Linus another reaction about brother/sister or other people in a dream can also give information about the real person. I will not consider the information about other people always about myself,sometimes it's a message about things going on in their life. I experienced that with people about whom I dreamt and who I asked later on and it wasn't part of my lifeprocess but something going on in their lives. For Beatrice the dreamnight is tonight in our country for Ralf and me. Maui time 12 o'clock will be tomorrow at noon time in our country and then I am in my course of Hypnosis. I will find out what I experience if there is a break during that time. Otherwise I have to find out by the dreams of tonight how our group will have mutual dream experiences. You are good at it! I have been in Brasil in 1999, who knows we'll see eachother again. Hermine

August 31, 2001, Maui Dear Hermine, Beatrice, Ralf, Alan, Joan and Everyone, I am intending to meet all of you in our shared dream at the Maui pool, tonight August 31, at midnight Maui time. I hope to be there in LD, if not then in Lucid Life through mediation.

I have meant to send this post sooner, but my life takes crooks and turns. Now I have vowed to myself to concentrate on LD.

I hope you are interested to know that I had asked my beautiful granddaughters Kelly, age 11 and Stephanie age 8, to draw pictures of our dream group for my concentration. Their artwork is precious as only children's artwork can be. They have lying in rows in our sleeping bags by the pool dreaming. In our dreams we are having a fun party. Of course they added volcanoes and cocoanut palms as well as the ocean and other fanciful things.

Right now I feel excited about the possibilities. Betty

Dear Special Friends, I read your posts with great interest. Of course, I learn from all of you. Many of your dreams are very serious. Others are such fun to read. The one that comes to mind right now is Alan's Ostrich dream.

Good grief Alan after reading that, I had an elephant dream. I thought it was going to sit on me, and then I realized it was a dream elephant, and I was safe.

For me to have LD, I must immerse myself in LD--that is read about LD, think about them and intend to have them, touch doorways and whatever else I think to do. More later. Bye now, Betty

Hi Joe and all. Tonight I had a NLD with our group. Yesterday I put that oil in my forehead and thought about that mutual dream of Hermine message. It was such a pleasant dream. We were all in a big room talking to each other. After a while some of us started to show pictures with music about the meeting. I remember to see very beautiful pictures and music of some campmates and I remember very clearly Alan's work. He painted humans figures. The heads, hands and feet were made with circles/ellipses and body limbs made with curves. Kind of Miró shapes but figurative. In the dream I said "yes I know this style it is phsycodelic?". Then the figures changes to some kind of boat shape making their balance going forward and backward. . They were made with cut paper like those japanese luminary. The paper was cut to form kind of dragons and those other oriental figures. He had started the music but each of us has to sing a little to complete like an improvisation, big responsability...

I am still here waiting for lucidity come back .

Beatrice

Report of Maui Experiment

Saturday, 1. September 2001

Time 11.40 am - 12.40 pm MEST (Middle European Summer Time)

Setting: ND Mask: Off. I wear it only for dimming the light. I wear earplugs. It is not quiet at home. Astrid is working in the kitchen, preparing for the today's party. My son is playing. Later on someone is talking and a lane mower starts working.

Set (my plan): Deep relaxation, enter dreamstate, ?materialise? in MLG, swimming pool. I only want to see the people of the workshop, who are dreaming of MLG right now.

61 point relaxation works fine. I change from going through the points to falling into small dreamscenes again and again, but finally reach point 61. Some scenes from this stage:

1. My son is in the water of a swimming pool. I wonder, if he will reach the rim. He can swim, but not that good. I awake and return to the picture, see him climbing out.
2. I'm in the hospital. I read a urine meter and prepare to compute the balance. I remember the numbers 140 and 80.
3. I have to stop my car, because two older boys are crossing the street. They are using tricycles. I think it is strange, they are too old for this small tricycles. I awake and write down my dreamlets until I realise, I'm still dreaming.

Every time I awake, I remind myself next time to recognise, that I'm dreaming and then to spin immediately.

When the lane mowers starts working, I stop trying to consciously enter dreamstate, but just imagine being at the pool, walking around the pool on my hands (in handstand). I wait some moments to catch a sign from someone, but I don't see anyone. But I can't be calm because of the lane mower. I awake and write down the report.

Dream of August 31, 2001 Good morning Maui Dreamers. NLD of 8-31-01. Joan was the only "Maui" person in my dream. My dream Joan had her two young sons with her--- ages about 12 and 14. Many people were there camped out in RVs. (We have a 5th wheel trailer.) She parked her RV near ours. My dream scenes did not even resemble Maui, although there was lots of water and I was swimming in a few scenes. It was near dark although, there was enough light. This dream seems clear in my mind, but difficult to put into words.

Joan, I am happy that you were in my dream. Why two dream sons for you'I just don't know.

I want to know about you other Maui dreamers, dreams! Aloha from CA, Betty

Hi Beatrice,Ralf,Betty and others, I woke up this morning with a dream about a bicycle of a woman and a bicycle from a man. The man had stolen the bicycle of the woman and we caught this man. My eldest brother would punish him, my younger brother didn't want to punish the man. The woman's bicycle was stolen during her visit of a shop in the corner. She was saying goodbye to two man in this shop and then it happened. Later on a man gave me a backmassage,afterwards my sister wanted to get a massage too, but it was too late , we had to go. There were all kinds of magazines and I took out the little scents in small bottles on different pages. Then I visited a shop with a lot of tissues. Two women were working here and I thought of a new name for this shop. (No new name came up in the dream ) Then I realized I dreamed and I continued to think of all of us in Maui. I saw each person with a characteristic. For Ralf his diving glasses, for Toko her mermaid, for Alan his hat, for Dominick and Joe their divingmaterial, for Wilson his swimmingtools, for Suzie her jewelry she left one day at the swimmingpool, for Betty her meditation posture, for Robert his snorkling material, for Joan her camera, for Sasha his video, for Lorella her parachute, for Jerry his touching hands, for Laura her shawl,for Beatrice the cucaracha song(which was in our room and which I killed one evening) for Keelin her flowers and butterflies, for Stephen his pictures for telepathy. I situated the whole group in Greece. The Orion shining. The islands of love. the gods and goddesses in men and women, the books of Jane Bolen. The Mountain Akropolis, The Delphi Oracle. In the pool was the yin/yang symbol on the bottom as in Maui. I read TIMEFRAME and thought of a future orientation. Dreaming in Brasil first near Rio de Janeiro;Rio River;Rio Abierto/open river/flowing river. RIO, then the song 'The river of Babylon' came to my mind. I thought of our mutual dreaming project.I again thought dreaming in Brasil first and dreaming in Australia later. The end was with the song of F.Zappa:'Home is where the heart is'. (By the way, I have never been to Greece, my eldest son was in Kreta this year for the first time and I have seen his photos more than a week ago.) After all Ralf and I both dreamed about "cycles" tricycles and bicycles in our dreams. One important remark, the bike'bicycle,in the dream was of a woman named Petra. I have known Petra for many years, maybe more than twenty years. She is also a dreamworker with Robert Bosnak, we are in the same dreamgroup.She is a musician and studied musicology and French literature. She is working now at the University of Utrecht especially on women's projects.I have no name for the man's bike. One of the men in the cornershop could be Roger Ripert from Parish, who made the French translation of Lucid Dreaming for Stephen. Hermine

Hi Joan, One other caracteristic you had in the dream besides the camera was the Jungian image/point of view. I realized this later, when I wrote down my dream I couldn't find immediately the association. Hermine

Hi, all

@Joe "...we are all adults here (well, physically anyway)." But we have to keep the Forum immaculate, don't we? OK. Dream sex IS masturbation, but it is much better... Don't want to be called "pigheaded"...

"I dig the ESP stuff, and appologize for not partaking in the shared experience." It's a pity, that only few people take part in the experiment. We would have better chances for success, if more would take part. "Why dont you write the name of a common gemstone on a slip of paper and put it in your freezer. I will attempt to read it." I just did it. The sheet lies right below the Foster's bottles, for your registration.

"the shortcut to shamen consciousness raises some eyebrows...How do you all respond to that one?" With a very straight look into the eyes and a slight knowing, not too arrogant smile, if that is what you like to hear.

@ Beatrice "Maybe in the future people won't need internet anymore...

Beatrice"

It was yesterday night, when I talked with my Astrid about LD and ESP. And why it is so important for me. LD offers a new way of perception and interaction. I feel part of the human evolution in developing my LD - skills. I want to experience personally and by the means of (somewhat controlled) experimentation, what the sages tell us since thousands of years: That you and me and everything is deeply connected and that this connectivity transcends the limitations of light speed and time's flow. LD seems to be a good platform to research this "aspect" of reality.

@Alan

It's relieving me, that you don't take my laziness serious. Can we already take a look at your article? Your English friend is certainly relieved by the latest international soccer massacre. (England vs. Germany 5:1) I didn't even watch it on TV. I'm no "fanatic". "How would you like it if they pinned a yellow badge on you and your family?" I wouldn't like it at all, for sure. A delicate question, regarding my countries history. I wouldn't like anyone to pin any badges. Transcendence - I remember a story, one thread of the labyrinthine clew called "Illuminatus Trilogy" by R.A.Wilson and R.Shea: It said, that the German Nazis were a part of an ancient conspiracy, that wanted to (now my translation) "eternalise the Eschaton". What means IMHO to end the life of mankind. Other traces lead to a "Thule" society. In any way, Germans were fascinated by northern mythology. Wagner's (Der Ring der Nibelungen) wife was very close to Hitler. The Nazis abused this mythology to justify and establish the inhuman idea of "Uebermensch" (Arier, ) and "Untermensch" (the Jews, Homosexuals etc.) (Lately there has been a debate in Israel, because someone wanted to perform Wagner there) There may have been some transcendental experiences leading to the discrimination the Nazis made, but these are not new in substance. One starting point for this discrimination were the words of the Holy Bible, saying there is only one justified god and saying the only these people are good, who pray to him. Jews, Christians and Moslems still carry the spark of this discrimination in their "blessed" souls. But they are not alone... Maybe one should define "transcendental experience" and discern experience from what is made of it. In my eyes, transcendence means: Growing over of old structures of my mind and opening up for a new consciousness, that is able to embrace more, love more, know more, not less! Transcendence has to be an including process, not an excluding. I'm not sure, if ?moments of maximum respect? is a proper definition of "Transcendence". And if you look at human history, the Ego - consciousness did grow out of Mythological consciousness. That was transcendence. Today we (the "post - industrial" cluster of mankind) have to go trans Ego and open up for a "connective individuality" or "individual connectivity" or whatever you would call it. So the contents of transcendence vary with mankind's development. And the vary with culture. Afghanistan's society hasn't yet transcended totalitarianism. But we all know, that there are democratic powers in this country. Some developments take time, and in this case many peoples lives and freedom. This has been the case in Europe, too. Just look at the fight between medieval and Enlightenment's powers.

And now something completely different... "If there was a horse in a race that was called ?Beatrice might dream of Ralf sending her a message about emotion and sex things?, I think you would be wise to put money on it." How much money would you have put on it, given that you have 1000 $ and have the choice to bet on the following horses:

Today

1. ?Beatrice might dream of Ralf sending her a message about emotion and sex things?
2. ?Ralf might dream of Beatrice sending her a message about emotion and sex things?
3. ?Alan might dream of Ralf sending him a message about emotion and sex things?
4. ?Ralf might dream of Alan sending him a message about emotion and sex things?
5. ?Beatrice might dream of Ralf sending her a message about success in LDing?
6. ?Beatrice might dream of someone sending her a message about something completely different (maybe a telephone - book, or a giant elephant or a giant ... INSECT)?

It is a pity, that we are very rarely able to give statistically evident proof to spontaneous ESP like situations. But that's the way it is.

Alan, don't worry. You can keep your sweet suffering! I think nobody can go on an inner quest and only find, what he expects or only find superficial, "nice" things. It seems, we have to suffer, as long we are we.

@ Linus:

I remember you asked, why your hands morphed in a LD. It has something to do with the missing feedback of the process, that creates our perception, with external sources. As far as I remember you didn't ask, why the changed exactly the way they did. But I find it reasonable to look for a potentially symbolic meaning, or to take a look at your feelings during the dream. Symbolising is a great power of the brain! I don't think that the occurrence of symbols in dreams is a distortion. That is why I try to interpret dreams. And that is why it makes sense to use them for personal growth. The brain wants to create meaning!

@ Hermine:

I'll continue tomorrow, if I have the time.

Ralf,

The 5-1 win over Germany is being hailed as a 'miracle' because it was deemed unlikely. Beatrice's dream cannot be counted as any degree of miracle because of the opposite. It seems to me that likelihood is the only measure we have for detecting ESP phenomena.

Nietszche's concept of the Uebermensch had nothing to do with the Nazi super race. His sister re-edited his writings to conform with the political zeitgeist of the times (silly old bag). Don't forget that Nietszche's last sane act was to get down on his knees in the road and embrace a dying horse. That's more like the Uebermensch he had in mind. But I quite agree about the Judeo/Christian/Moslem Old Testament traditions. Poisonous rubbish, but so was bashing your neighbour over the head with a Mammoth thigh bone. I guess we just have to go through these things.

So, what's the likelihood of the Poms beating Albania and Greece?

Hermine, what do you mean that in your dream where I appeared with the camera I had the characteristic of the "Jungian image/point of view"? What is an image/point of view? Was it because I had the camera and was recording the events? Since I was a dream figure you created, then I am you, and you are me and we are all together -- but I digress -- koo koo ka choo.

Linus, where are you? Did you manage the heart removal? I personally don't know why you'd want to waste lucidity on taking out your own heart. Help me understand how that could be fun. But you have an extarordinary amount of lucid dreams, so maybe you you have time to spare.

Betty, I wondered, too, why you gave me two sons in your dream.

Ralf, so when do we try the next meeting in dreams? I'm going to try to spot the name of the gemstone in your refrigerator. So, don't tell Joe what it is until I have a look. You should be dreaming right now. It's night in Germany. I'm trying to send you a picture. Tell me your dreams tomorrow and I'll tell you if you got the picture. Have you met Dieter yet? He lives in Germany, too, you know!

Gotta go == Jerry and I are going to go for a walk before it gets too dark.

Sweet dreams.

Joan

Monday, 3. September 2001

Hi, lucid folks. These are my today's NLD. Hope you enjoy them.

I'm playing handball. I am to join a team of high classed players. We're playing in a gym. I'm not fitting in the team. I have no handball practice. But they want me, they seem to need me. I don't have the correct dress, it is my table tennis dress, I'm not allowed to play at all. The game is interrupted again and again, because I have something to do, take off my watch, etc. I'm not able to catch a ball properly. I fear to get hurt. I go into the changing room. Someone is hurt, is bleeding. Someone takes off the bloody bond. I ask for the trauma. The "therapist" says, it is old, not from today. I examine the bond using latex gloves. After I take off the gloves, there is blood on my hands. I talk about this fact, wondering, why it is so. The gloves were useless. Someone says, that he didn't wear gloves at all, when he changed the bond and that I have to take a shower now. I'm surprised, because the game is still on. But I do it. He wants me to stand on his bloody bald head, what I find too close and inconvenient. (There has been a similar picture in a film about the civil war in Lebanon, I saw yesterday. A crowd of men walked in the streets, everybody punching his own bleeding head again and again) I prefer to stand in the large washstand. Back in the gym, the other team has vanished. I had already suspected, that they would soon loose their patience. Everybody wonders what to do. I decide, we should wait. The are going to return by themselves. Now it is time to talk. Huebi (a classmate during high school - years, who played handball with me in that times) says, that the team just ascended into a high class (the third highest class in Germany). I don't feel good enough to play with them. We practice. As in former times, I am the goalkeeper. And as in former times, his shots hurt like heavy punches. I'm so afraid, that I decide to let the shots pass, I don't want to get hurt. Now the opponents appear again, just like I thought. The game could continue now, if it was not for all the chairs of the spectators standing on the field. Again an interruption. I awake.

The beginning is fuzzy. I look at a field outside from a birds view. Many children are impatiently waiting to be allowed to play here. I hear them whisper full of excitement. Finally we allow it and it is like a dam breaks. They flood the ground, playing, screaming, running, climbing. I'm lying in the grass, can only see the sky. And worry, that some child might fall into the river at the far end of this field. I talk it over with Imke, my former wife, who is lying to my right. My beloved Astrid is lying to my left. We lie there somewhat stiff, we don't move, we just lie straight on our back. Just when we talk a man with curly golden hair appears. Golden skin. Looks like an angel. I become aware, the my right leg lies on my former wife's left leg. Now the face of the suspected Angel changes into that of Imke's current husband. He looks at us from above. I think about this situation. I watch him. He is calm. There is nothing bad in my heart, no feeling of guilt. We just lie here. Comment: Yesterday night it dawned on me, that I/ we did something good. When Astrid celebrated her birthday, my son was there, too and all my closer family (my long divorced parents, my fathers new wife, my two brothers and their wives and children, Astrid's mother. Only my sister was missing, but she lives too for away). It was planned, that Imke's current husband, Carsten, would pick up my son. The good thing, I / we (Astrid and me) did: We invited him to sit with the whole family who hardly knew him. At first he resisted, but then he sat besides me and my (our) son Alex sat on both our knees. Carsten introduced himself as Alex' second dad. And I said, he is sometimes his first dad (because I'm not there). At that time I thought, I went too far, but later on it dawned on me, that it has been very good, to seat Carsten in the right place in the presence of the family. Reminds me of Hellinger and his "family - placement - therapy". I didn't think about this until now. And if I look at the series of dreams I had concerning me and my former wife, this is the most peaceful and relieving, I have had, since we divorced. The dream pointed out the relief (the playing children). But we still lie stiff. Not everything is being solved... lives and dreams continue.

Greetings!

Joan: I haven't succeeded with the heart removal yet, but soon" Perhaps to night? You wonder why? Hehe" Imagine the feeling. You push your fingertips on to you chest. Slowly they sink into you body. You grab your warm heart. You feel the strong muscle working there in your hand. Beating, uninterruptedly. That's the cornerstone in your body. It works day and night, all your life. Then you just rip it out! You hold it there in front of your eyes. Your own heart, dripping of blood. It still beat a few times but then stops. You stand there a while, just holding it. One of the most important internal organs you have. If this were real, you would be long dead. Would that be cool or what? I mean, how many people have actually held their own heart? Well, not many, I guess. I would like to try that eye thing too. But I'm afraid it's too weird and I guess I would awake if I tried it. So I wont try it right now, maybe later...

All: Back to what we talked about earlier. I didn't mean that I have control over everything in my lucid dreams. What I meant was that I have control over everything I do. If I rip my heart out in a LD that's not a sign of that I'm worrying over the health of my heart, or that I think I might get hurt soon or something like that. That's a action by the "awaken me". An action which means nothing. It has no meaning'

Hi Joan,

Jung about his symbols and symbolism.(image) The point of view of Jung(instead of Freud) I believed you are a "Jungian" psychologist. In my dream the main characteristic was the connection with Jung when I thought about you! Hermine

Hi Hermine Tonight I had a LD and decide to walk upsidedown with my hands. It felt great when I started. There was cucarachas moving pices all over the floor. I had to stop my new experiment. I knew it was a dream but I still didn't feel ok with thouse insects close-up. Beatrice

Hi Ralf,Linus, Beatrice and all others,

Good development Ralf, after all your tricycles, might have to do with your familysituation right now. For Linus, I feel you are provocative and rebellious in your experiments. Why not if you have fun you do it your way and tell the others how it really felt. For Beatrice, I remember how we couldn't sleep until we find the cucaracha.(Para amar toditos lados (all possible places where they are/were) I am glad I didn't dream about insects. I dreamed about the head of my department in the Mental Institute. She left last week and we had two parties on Tuesday and Thursday. I dreamed about her in July and this week twice. One time with her watch ready(real timing she left) and the second last night she bought jewelry with the number 49, my age the end of this month. I wondered this morning if I would leave the Institute the end of this year. Mary(the name of my boss)bought a jewel with this number on it and put it on her bracelet. I have a private practice in Amersfoor but will start a private practice in Amsterdam. Today I heared I can get a house in Amsterdam too. So future will be more oriented in Amsterdam and the I might leave the M.Institute too as she did. Hermine

Hi, lucid friends

Hermine

A wonderful dream. You were lucidly imagining our group. Did you intend to make ESP?

Beatrice

Your music dream reminds of an own NLD before the Maui experiment: I danced with Toko and got "real" dizzy.

Betty

Funny, that you dreamed of Joan in the experiments night. And a nice idea with your grandchildren's painting.

Alan

Your right. Nietsche's philosophy, too, has been abused by the Nazis. And your right again with your thoughts about likelihood. Controlled experiments are the only way to prove ESP. But we may experience ESP, although we can't prove it. I admire ESP "likely" experiences, because they motivate me to stay on the track. Can you prove, that your dreams are lucid? Only in controlled situations. But you still do it and believe you were / are lucid. I do discern between scientific proof and anecdotal proof.

I'm not able to say anything about the likelihood of soccer - events, because I don't know the variables.

Joan

I think, it could be October, 1st. But we have to find a way to get a better timing. There seem to be some ambiguities concerning Maui midnight and when it takes place in different time zones. I'll think about it.

I haven't met Dieter. Maybe he sends me some pictures...

Linus

Using sheer will, taking arbitrary decisions doesn't mean, they don't mean a thing.

CU in LD

Yours Ralf

Tuesday, 4. September 2001

I'm seeing H., walking in a military uniform down a floor with walls made of windows. R. is with him. He is wearing his normal (not military) cloth. I think it is funny and strange, that he wears a uniform. I've already heard, that he is a doctor in the army now. But it doesn't fit in his former life, when he rejected military service. I knock on the window to get H.'s attention. When he reaches a door and goes through, I caricature a military salute, expecting him to laugh with me. But he doesn't even turn his head or talk to me. Only R. glances shortly, then they pass by. I'm disappointed, I'm feeling disliked.

Comment: This one is about two friends, with whom I stuied human medicine. It is about me and how I still hang on to this time and because of this encounter additional hindrances to get my buisiness as "Heilpraktiker" (non - medical practitioner) started.

Greetings, All:

The mention of bicycles and koo koo ka choo in your recent posts really are interesting....

Joans mention of the Beatle lyrics happened to coincide with a co-worker saying it repeatedly, as well as my girlfriend randomly stating it repeatedly the other night. What is really interesting is that my coworker, Rob, did not even know it was a beatle song, he called it his "river-call". He and his friends would say it in somewhat secret fashion in the halls during High School, and this was the signal to meet at the river that afternoon...I thought that was a great teenage memory to share..

Bicycles...Yes...Last night I had a NLD (Darn It!) in which I was riding my moutain bike, and couldn't realize why the front de-railer would not go from the 5 to 10 gear sproket (I always keep them well adjusted)?!?!?!?!? And yes, a few females did seem elusive (@Alan). Two missed triggers....

I am living in a college community and find it quite interesting how the 18-22 year old girls react to a man in his mid 30's...Or is it my strong feelings towards my girlfriend? I dont know...This is a new problem for me.....

zzzzZZZZZZ( Yes, I reward myself @Ralf) z z z z z Joe

Hi Ralf, Joe and others, Hi Ralf if it were my dream; I see my friends in formal cloths(uniforms). I am less formal and to start my practice I will behave less formal than they do. I prefer humour too, they(my friends) don't recognize me. I will prepare to have a non medical profession; heilpraktiker.(even when I didn't finish school/my education I have a chance to do it!) For Joe, yes the "rivercall" good to hear from you, nice expression like a "calling dream". About your gears, if it were my dream, I wonder if the difference in age will be surpassed (or this is hard to beat for you?) Give yourself the opportunity! About stigmatization. In our country the government wanted to give the bicycles of asylum people from other countries a yellow sticker, so people can see these bikes are not stolen. I didn't like this at all I remembered the Jewish identification in wartimes again. First we got postcodenumbers on the bikes for all the Dutchpeople and then this advertisement in the newspapers. Hermine Last remark for Ralf, yes I was lucid about our group dreamnight, but I didn't try ESP ,next time, I will give it a try as Joe or Joan talked about names or other things to be send in teh dream to eachother. I agree with you a time for all of us around 6/7 in the morning for us and for the Californian people 10/11 in the evening before. Although I heared from the E dreamgroup you can have the timedifference and it does't matter. F.I. for the telepathycontest evening/night someone got the dream picture one month earlier.(He is a lucid dreamer) So timedifference does'nt have a big influence. Hermine

Ralf,

I may be Honorary Keeper of the Woo-Woo Meter, but I am still subject to surges. I got excited when my computer logged itself on to the net all by itself - twice - and on both occasions there was an email from Keelin just arrived. Then I found out my service provider had just installed a new gismo which automatically reconnected me to the net after accidental disconnection. As Neitszche would say, 'Human, all too human'.

Wednesday, 5. September 2001

Hi people, these are my dreams today. I'm happy, that one has a lucid moment after a dry spell of weeks. And funny, that I did dream about bikes, as Joe did.

Fragments of an earlier dream: I'm riding a car through labyrinthine city streets. Then it is a bike. I avoid hitting the pedestrians walking the broad pavement. I feels strange, that I can drive this slow. Somehow tender. Some shove a bike, too. I have to stop and descend one time, because the other bikes are forming a barrier. Then I remember to drive fast and freely, ecstatic.

The following are short dreams in the later morning. I had already been awake for a short time. Just long enough to think about writing down my dreams and about entering the dreamstate consciously. But not that long to be clear, how to do it.

I'm standing at a cash terminal. I look at the wall above it. There is a poster showing ten, hundred and thousand Euro. I put in my bank card and choose to get Euro. What I get looks as Deutsche Mark at the first sight, then I see Euro, then it is some information material and a postcard from my mother. I'm surprised. I turn it around and take a short glance at the handwriting. Then I take a look at some coins in my older brother's wallet. They look different from what I know. I awake.

I'm in a hospital. Standing in the units office, I try to find something to write my dreams upon. I find a blank sheet, but remember, that it would make no sense, to write something down, because I can't take it with me. I'm dreaming. But it would also make no sense to wake up, because I have no sheets at my bed. (That is actually the case) And I don't want to move, that much, because I want to stay in the dream. The dream continues as NLD, it is as nearly every time: The doctors don't have time to listen, what I have to say concerning the patients, because they have something else to do. And I don't want to wait here. I take some patients with me and want to go down one level into the unit, where I'm working. On the way the floor is as narrow, as I know it and it is difficult to shunt with the barrow. I awake.

Wednesday, 5. September 2001

All you lucids!

Joe Nice to share the bike subject. I remember a lucid dream (I think I posted it), where I caught one of this evasive ladies. And she turned out to be different to what I expected. The best thing, I could do in the face of the vanishing dream was to hug her in any way. And that felt more than good, I tell you! Nice reward...

Hermine Yes, we share some daytime and night time subjects. Maybe because we both went non - conventional ways and/ or work in the health - services. The timing: When we were on Maui and I phoned my Astrid 10 am Maui time on Saturday, it was 10 pm on Saturday in Germany. That means a time difference of +12 for Germany and the Netherlands (Middle European SUMMER Time! Do you have a Summer time shift?) compared with Maui. If we meet at Maui's midnight time 11.59 pm Saturday, it is 11.59 am Sunday in Netherlands / Germany. And it has to be Sunday already for Californian people. Maybe 3 or 4 am Sunday. I don't know, how the Australians like Alan behave in that case, if the are still Saturday evening or whatever.

Your right to say, that the point of time, when we are dreaming isn't that important. But the thing is, that we have to somehow agree about when to send the reports, if we want to control the experiment. But I think, the experiments setting isn't controlled, anyway. So we should probably make it easier for us. How does the E dreamgroup control?

Alan

Yes, these moments of tension... did you check reality? I'm off with that stuff since some weeks, but want to get in again. My DSA rating decreases obviously! Sometimes computers are all to human, maybe someday even more human, than we are. Or did you mean the all too human tendency to create meaning by combining simultaneously occurring events (computer logs in and Keelin's email arrives)?

Anyway

Yours Ralf

Ralph,

Did I check reality? Yes, but it seemed less interesting than the possibility of a spooky computer, so I went woo-woo for a while.

But I'm back now, and I say.............what in the name of God is a DSA rating?

Love to all

Alan T

Betty,

I remember very pleasant conversations, and the secret feeling that I was talking to the sort of person that built America. But that is far too open to misinterpretation, so I won't say it.

The Ostrich dream remains to this day the brightest of my LDs - in chronological order descending from the present moment - but there have been others which, at the time, were brighter. My life is composed of the footsteps I have made over the brightest stepping stones.

Sweet dreams

Alan T.

Hi you all. Today I had a lucid dream about this age thing. I met a friend and he looked like 15 years less. I knew I was dreaming and I have got so excited about this situation that I woke up. I had already a lucid dream when I was in Paris in the beginning of last century, I could see so many beautiful dresses and so on, but seeing someone I knew looking so much younger in a LD was too much for me. Maybe this is not that much, and that what really counted was the fact I wasn't able to keep my lucidy somehow last night. Beatrice

Dear Maui DreamCampanions,

Thank you all for keeping the sweet memory of our daze & nights together spinning on. Each time I read your adventures, I see us gathered, usually around the lanai table, leaning forward to catch each dreamy detail that is being served.

• The most recent Dream Meeting in Maui: My daytime work has gone into high gear these past few weeks. Thus, I've not had as much time as I'd like to post to the Forum, and when I went to bed the night of September 1st, I had only in the very furthest corner of my mind (how can there be a corner if my head is relatively round?), the mental post-it to meet in Maui. And yet, at some point, that corner did light up and a brief dream of DreamCamp emerged -- but it was not a scene of our DreamCamp! 'Twas of the one yet to come (not even on the waking calendar at this point). The setting was unfamiliar Hawaiian (perhaps Kalani?) but this did not catch my attention.

... The first session of DreamCamp is about to begin. While Stephen and a few participants gather in the meeting room, I go to a room nearby to round up the rest of our fresh flock of oneironauts. I greet them by saying, "If anyone thinks this might be a dream, please raise you hand!" Of course, I raise my own. Ah, but I do this more as an example than with the awareness that indeed this is a dream and therefore completely miss the opportunity for lucidity! No extra set of legs this time, nothing out of the ordinary to trip me into awareness. I wake shortly afterwards with a sigh and that deja vu feeling -- been there/done that before -- asking my dream companions to question their state! I do not want this to become a habit, so... next time I vow to practice what I preach.

• On the topic of dream sex: It seems to me to be such a personal matter, impossible to judge anyone else's dream choices and purposes. For those who are not physically able to engage in sexually intimate relationships in waking life, dream sex may offer a way to experience the pleasurable sensations that can accompany such interaction. For others, the motivation and rewards may be emotional. In a lucid dream, one can make new choices, can often direct the actions of a dream partner. The practice of being in control over one's sexual expressions/adventures can be a kind of healing therapy. (By the way, exactly who is that standing by the side of the road with their thumb out?)

Alan: For that wee moment (or would that be that woo moment?) did you wonder if the Queen of the Pagan Babes might be branching out beyond her usual realm? You did the reality check (excellent!), but it sounds like there was a moment in between, savored simply for its dreamlike quality. Sometimes, I am slow to do a state test for that very reason. In either world, I find those moments charged with bliss!

Sweet Dreams & Magical Moments to all, Keelin

PS: Joe: Many moons ago, you asked if a message you'd posted had been removed. Not to my knowledge. And just so you all know, if we ever feel the need to delete a message, the author is always notified personally by email. In all the time we've had this Forum going, I believe we've only needed to do this with two people.

Hi, dreamers!

Alan

DSA is dream sign awareness. I categorise my dreams using SLB's DSA - scale.

Keelin

Hi, nice to see you. Hope you're fine. Maybe one of the campers could ask you, if your dreaming. How would you react? Are you dreaming?

I would spread out this conversation, if I didn't have a "date" in the hospital.

CU

Ralf

A NLD of today:

Thursday, 6. September 2001

I take part in an anatomy lesson, that belongs to the curriculum of studies in human medicine. The instructor examines an old woman with me. Again and again he lifts her head, shakes it from side to side, bends her chin against her breast bone. (These are in fact neurological examinations). But he doesn't seem to find, what he is looking for. Although she doesn't seem to be pleased, she doesn't complain. But some foam- like fluid runs out of her mouth. The instructor says, that we have to watch out for this kind of signs. And leaves. I gently lift her head and arrange her pillow. In doing this I feel, that she shakes her head from side to side, only a little. Feels like automatic (similar to Parkinson's disease) One can't see it, but feel it. I call for the instructor, but he doesn't react. I think it would be better for her to relax now, anyway. And I come to the idea, that it doesn't make sense for me to join the studies in human medicine again. I'm in the wrong place. It is not only for anatomy, but all the other subjects. I should focus on my "Heilpraktiker" - studies. Now all the students and instructors come together and discuss a new case. There is a woman with rheumatism. She looks somewhat deformed. She stands there naked in the centre of the circle of white smocks. I decide not to join this lesson, but leave. I want to visit a friend of mine. It is a spontaneous decision. I'm thinking about what to take with me, take a look around. There is only rather old food, bread, etc. I don't really know how to get there from here. I drive through the city's streets, looking for points of orientation. There is a large old tower, which seems familiar. I don't have a map. The road is frosted. I'm sliding. I can't drive as fast, as I want to. I don't want to cause an accident and decide to walk and look for the way. In walking I think, I might loose my way and that I possibly won't find the car later on. I discuss with my Astrid, (her voice is simply there) whether it is a reasonable plan to visit my friend. She doesn't seem very responsive and reminds me, that we have a date tomorrow. (Saturday). I conclude my plan isn't worthwhile and awake.

Comment: Another one about my search for my new profession. It is an advance that I discover, I'm in the wrong place, studying human medicine again. In other dreams I simply do it. I seem to get into a more sensible mood, but there are still these not very sensible parts of me (all these instructors and students) not integrated, not embraced. My friend has the role of an advisor for me (as a dream symbol and in real life). Why can't I find the way to him? Maybe because my question is not clear enough. Maybe because I don't take enough time to work things out. There are so many other dates. Maybe it is like I said in the beginning of the dream: I have to focus. But it seems, I have to "join forces", too. I don't want to exclude what I've learned from the orthodox medicine's way. This knowledge has to be revised in some way. But it is not only knowledge. That is the problem. Orthodox medicine in my experience tends to treat the patient as an object, reduces men to their illness, treats men as flesh. My Heilpraktiker way is different, I want it to be different. It shall be a knowing AND caring, including flesh and soul.

Friday, 7. September 2001

This night I did wear the ND - mask, ready for a MILD exercise in the morning. These are dreams and dreamlets in the order of appearance, as far as I remember. Bed time: 1:00 am

I'm in the garden in the back of my mother's house. It is dark. Seems to be a kind of party going on. I suddenly look into the sky, because I think, there was flying a huge bright circle - formed object. Now it must be covered by the house, but soon it must appear again on the other side. But it doesn't. I conclude, my senses must have been fooled, otherwise this must have been an UFO. Comment: Maybe this UFO was a SND - cue. Then the dream took place between 4:00 and 6:10 am.

We are training soccer. The task is to simply shoot the ball as far as one can. I only watch the scene. The ball is somewhat deflated (flabby). I wonder why such a ball is used and interpret we don't have another. Most players can't shoot far. But the better players shoot twice far. Now we are playing with another team on a field. Someone shoots the ball over a fence. Another (fat) man climbs the fence, damages it, gets the ball. He gets ready for the throw - in. He aims at the goal. Now I'm the goal - keeper. I control my position and wait for the ball. He throws and with a quick rise of my arm I prevent the goal. Applause. The game continues. A member of my team plays the ball right to an opponent standing in front of my goal. This time I can't prevent the goal. I'm angry and shout: "It is your fault!". Some moments later the ball is over the fence again. The fat man jumps over the fence and lands on his buttocks. I think he must be hurt, but he stands up and continues. I wonder, why they don't care for the garden, that lies behind the fence. The destroy everything. Now the player, whom I accused, again plays the ball to an opponent. Again I have to let the ball pass. I wonder, why this is repeating. I think, maybe it is my fault, because I did angrily accuse him. And somehow it is strange, that the opponents have gained two goals. I remember, they only had one (this has been the case in waking life). I decide to leave the goal and play in the field. I have the ball and fight my way through the whole field. But there are that many peoples and their legs, that I can hardly see the ground. Somehow I manage to get to the opponents' goal. But there is no place to do a strong shot. My shot is weak, bangs into some legs and misses the aim by far. That seems too much for me. :-) I awake.

The ND wake alarm goes. (6:10 am)I write down dreams, get up for a pi, return, take a gulp of water. It is only ten minutes of wakefulness. My experience is, that I can't return to sleep consciously, if I stay up longer. I lay down for MILD. I relax. There is a lot of hypnagogic imagery while I go through the points. I stop at 31 this time, because I'm relaxed enough and want to focus on MILD, before I drift into unconscious sleep. I take the soccer game for MILD. While I recall / redream the dream, there are variations and totally different scenes. But I return again and again, to complete the second and third round, where I imagine to get lucid, when the man jumps the fence. Afterwards I drift in and out some scenes, I try to relax deeper and stay conscious. I watch some scenes lucidly, the best is:

Ca 7:00 - 8:00 am I see a family of midgets, parents and a son. They are standing at a well. I'm able to stay aware, while the scene blows up, becomes more and more vivid. The dwarfs begin moving, so do the trees around. Suddenly I feel lifted out of physical body, while the scene stays. There is this beeping in my ears again, that I would connect to OOBE, if it wasn't for the dream scene, I'm seeing. I interpret that I just enter sleep paralysis. I'm a little frightened and excited, as always. I remember Owen's advice to spin for stabilising. I do it. Maybe it prolongs the waking process. I seem to be able to watch the fading of the scene longer. But the scene fades, until it is dark and I feel back in physical body. I try to get into the state again, I don't move (I'm lying on my left side). I dive in and out dream scenes, but can't focus on staying aware or on spinning.

Maybe my spinning was too hard, too "physical". It is not easy to get the balance between letting go and doing something to prolong the dream. Does anyone have advice?

8:00 - 10:00 am I'm eating a cookie. My son, who is lying on a bed, says, that he isn't hungry. I respond, that he doesn't have to eat, if he doesn't want to. Now some story is being created about how I got into this situation. I don't want to see it, because I think, it is all rubbish, without meaning. I awake.

A Reiki master talks with me. He says, that I'm already open (for the universal energy) Other people spend a lot of time to achieve this state. I'm somewhat proud, but also sceptical. He continues giving a description of me from his "clairvoyant" point of view: "Your thoughts are not complete... " I think, that is something one can say about everyone. I don't want to hear this drivel. I wake up.

The last two dreamlets are typical for my later morning sleep. There seems to be a tacit lucidity, but until now I can't make something of dreams of this kind. Dream state is very unstable, ratio is too powerful (and often somewhat crusty, as you can see.)

Does anyone have advice on how to prolong these fragile later morning dreams? Spinning seems to be to "brutal". And the more important question is: How do I increase this awareness from tacit to explicit?

Hi Ralf!

I agree that spinning might be to "brutal'. I've tried it several times but it haven't worked even once. It's more like if the last remains of my dream have been "spun away'. If you understand what I mean.

But maybe I've got it all wrong. I've understood the technique as following: If you feel that you are about to loose your dream, if it begin fading away for example, begin spin and the dream will stabilize. But is it in fact?: If you feel that you are about to loose your dream, if it begin fading away for example, begin spin. When you stop the dream should have stabilised.

If it is as in example 2 I understand what I've done wrong. I've never stopped spinning. I've just continued and continued and waited for the dream to come back'

Hi, folks

This night I had only one dream, I remember. Maybe due to the two bottles of wine, I shared with a friend, who is on a a visit. The dream seems to be like that?

Im standing on the top of a big house. Some people, who belong to me, are standing on a ladder and open windows, because they want to steal something. A security guard appears. I catch him. Say Im sorry, that he appeared in the wrong place in the wrong time. And turn his head around, until I feel his neck break.

Seems that too much wine decreases DSA. In vino veritas?

Linus Thanks for your contribution. I'm not experienced in this spinning thing. But for some people it works very well(Keelin and Owen often used this technique). It is said, they spin until a new dream scene emerges. This is one of the most powerful techniques to prevent awakening. In the case I described yesterday, the dream seemed to be still to "weak", thus the spinnig too "brutal". In other cases it might work better. I´ll have some other tries.

CU

Ralf

Hi Ralf, You share a lot of dreams with us, thanks for your openness.I believe in holistic medicine so I do agree to fulfill your wish of your Heilpraktiker job. It must have been a pity to stop your studies that time but maybe you have a practical start and can continue ever some theoretical part you would be interested in. About the spinning, just movement will be enough in the beginning, a turn in another direction so you keep dreaming. At the ASD Conference E.Kellogg a lucid dreamer from Oregon, told us to jump from a table and find out the change in the dreamscene.So you realize you are still in the dream. Sometimes I use walking or dancing so I keep dreaming and witness what's the dreamscene. And if I am flying I look around for objects or other things to identify f.i. symbols.So for Linus he might identify more of his village looking from the top of a tower or something in the air. Or what you said look at the computer and find the map; a click on village or hometown might help. It would be a nice idea to have a library or computer doing the work for us.! Last Fridaymorning I walked through the street of my old village where I have lived for 22 years. I noticed all different dreamscenes and people from the time I lived there. A lot of the dream content was related to my ex-husband again, because I lived in this village with him. His wash had been done and a woman in the street (not his second wife)was folding it when I passed the house. She asked me about the old situation and my answer was I still had a relation with him and the children. (In real life I don't have and my children will seldom visit their father. Although it went a little bit better after his marriage last year.) Later on I walk further and pass several nurses who are caring for a man who lays on a bed and I recognize one of the nurses, she is not from teh village, but from my period in the seventies when I worked in the hospital in Nijmegen as a nurse. Then I realize I am in a dream , because she is unknown in this village. I continue my dream I am going to the main restaurant named "Concordia" and when I take a drink and sit outside, there is a wasp. I try to get rid of the wasp, but it takes more time than I wanted too. I didn't get a sting but I felt a lot of irritation that the wasp was around me. End of the dream After the dream I didn't realize immediately, but today I thought again of the wasp and in a way I realized I left the old situation/village in 1998 because I wanted to be away of the old situation. On Thursday I told a friend I wanted to go to Amsterdam and work and live there to be further away of my old situation in this village.(Now I live 5 to ten minutes away)(I stayed near this place because of the shoolsituation of my son. Next year he will leave to go to the University and then it doesn't matter where I will live. On Friday I visited Tjitske a woman from the Netherlands who is on the board in the Dutch dreamorganization,called V.S.D. We talked about typical Dutch dreams f.i. about bikes. Last night I started dreaming about bikes and soon I was running on the "highway", which gave me the capacity of going "higher" . It was a nice experience and I thought of all different relationships I had with men at the moment and how I felt about them. This morning I continued and I felt good about the experiences.Nice to dream about men! Hermine

Greetings, All:

I had a interesting LD a few days ago. And, yes, I remembered our little experiment, Ralf.

I immediatly began flying, with the apprehension of having to go such a long physical distance (silly me!).

I knew that I needed to travel fast, so I headed right for space, and bounced off the top level of the atmosphere, similar to radio/satelite communications.

I have always been interested in the physics of such wave propogation, often amazed to the point of being skeptical. Well, I overshot germany and ended up somewhere like the coast of the baltic sea. Recent readings in National Geographic on Russia's atomic lake made me visualize a barren wasteland shoreline. It was so fascinating, to explore a forbidden lake shore, still radioactively "hot".

I then lost it.

I must change my mindset with regard to trans-atlantic travel. Maybe next time I will visualize a globe, and simply walk across to germany in 5 or 6 big steps. Not knowing exactly where you live makes this a little more complicated. This never seemed to stop edgar casey.

zzzzZZZZZZZ("Standin next to a mountain, chop it down with the edge of my hand") z z z z z Joe

Hi, Ralf, do you remember that I wrote on September 2nd that Jerry and I were trying to send you a picture that would appear in your dream? Well, your posts from the days right after that had nothing to do with the picture that we were looking at and trying to send you. The picture we were looking at is on the cover of a paperback book called "Area 51, The Grail." The book has been sitting here by the computer since the 2nd, and I've seen it every time I've sat down to read the Forum. At the top of the cover is a flying saucer. It is black, but the underside appears to glow and there is what looks like lightening coming out of the center of the bottom of the UFO. The sky beneath the UFO is red and there is a rock formation on the ground beneath it. So, is it just a coincidence that you dreamed about a UFO? I haven't looked inside your refrigerator yet. I haven't worried about how to travel in "real" space to get to your house. I've figured that when I became lucid I would just think that I was at your house and that I would be there. I should set my intention to visit your house in a regular dream.

Hi, Linus, I've tried spinning in a lucid dream to keep it from fading. It has worked every time I've tried it. I've spinned in different ways. Usually I just start to turn like a Dervish. I spin around maybe three or four times and then stop. When I stop there is a new dream scene. Jerry stabilized an LD one time by spinning like he was on a record turntable. I haven't really thought of anything during the spinning other than the desire to stabilize the dream. I've read others on the Forum who say they just repeat the phrase, "Increase lucidity now" or other words like that to keep the lucidity. I've also stabilized an LD by rubbing my dream hands together.

Alan, were you going to send us your article?

Gonna go now, Jerry and I are going to go for a walk. It's lovely weather here right now, not too hot.

Sweet dreams, everyone.

Joan

Hello, lucid friends!

Linus

I'm not that experienced in spinning. I only had one NLD (OK, a nearly lucid dream), where I used it. The effect was, that I was torn abruptly into a totally different dreamscene. So, spinning seems to work, but the question is, when to use it. It is not said, that spinning always works. In ETWOLD it is said, that spinning is a technique to prolong the dream, when it begins to fade. And it is said I should continue spinning, until I find myself in a stable new scene. It is not said, that we stay in the same scene.

Hermine

Stopping my studies has been a pity. And it has been a good chance, because I had the time to discover many other things, i.e. homeopathy, spiritual healing, astrology, lucid dreaming, etc. Spinning: There has been some exchange about how to enter the dreamstate consciously earlier on. Some of them in the thread "Learning lucid dreaming - primary techniques - napping" I'm sometimes bored by myself. It is still the same with me: I do everything to enter the dreamstate and I am still startled, when an image or dreamlet or dreamscene catches me. It was in the beginning of this year, when I wrote, I am sure, I will get over it with practise. I didn't practise it for some time now. In the face of being torn into a dream, I will gain an attitude, that is floating and focussed. In this stage I think movements have to be very tender and careful. But still, the main thing seems to be, that I still hold on to being in physical body. I still can't sustain loosing my body, undergoing this abrupt change in perception and body image. I still fear to loose myself. This seems to be the basic hindrance for me. I still believe, I will succeed with more practice. Seems to be rather easy for you to get lucid these days: "Then I realize I am in a dream , because she is unknown in this village." I realised it is strange, that Stephen is my personal teacher, but the dream created a solution, that made it probable. There were three dreamsigns, three times I tried to explain the thing, but didn't get to the crucial insight: It is odd because I'm dreaming. Next time... If it was my dream: I would be happy, that my clothing is washed, now. So I'm free to do other things. The wasp reminds me of a lucid dream: A giant insect appeared, I got startled and lost lucidity (and the dream ended). Was this bike - dream lucid, too? I find it sometimes very ecstatic to run or ride a bike very fast in dreams. Very different from using a car. It feels very physical ecstatic. Sharing dreams can be a very personal thing. I am aware, that anybody, whose browsing the Forum, can read our dreams. There is no privacy, it is open conversation. I sometimes hesitate and there are parts and dreams, I don't publish. But I think, that we have to give an example of how to live with dreams. And sharing dreams is one of the best ways to do it. It is like Keelin said: We keep up the memory, it sometimes feels like sitting together at a table.

Joe

Nice, that you lucidly jumped the pond. You are right, I live near the Baltic sea. Luebeck is a harbour city. It is 20 km to the shore. There were some radiant breezes blowing from over in Tschernobyl... Edgar Cayce ... it didn't stop him. But he seemingly couldn't stop it. That's (maybe luckily) not the case for me. Hope to see you and hear your giant steps. But please don't chop our "mountain". It is already only 168 m high. (I live on a flat land).

Joan and Jerry

We will never really prove, whether "field" ESP is coincidence or communication. It is very interesting, this thing about your UFO picture. I forgot about the plan to receive anything. And I did dream about an UFO. But your choice may have been "influenced" by me. How come? I'm (re-) playing Tombraider 3, the adventures of Lara Croft. At the time, I'm in Nevada, Area 51. I'm not that sure, but I remember entering the Nevada - Level in the end of August, the Area 51 - sublevel maybe in the beginning of September. Maybe it is just coincidence. But if I take a look at my dream (and day) diary I see: This year: The word UFO was only mentioned in connection with the UFO dream I posted in September. Spaceships did appear in seven dreams / six nights between 02.02.2001 and 10.04.2001. Exact dates: 02.02., 07.02., 09.03., 10.03.,12.3.,10.4. Planes did appear thrice.

If I exclude planes and include spaceships, and take in account, that we have a nine days "experimental period", what would be the probability of : "Ralf dreams (and writes down dreams) about UFOs in one of nine nights in 2001?" We have to find out the number of UFO - and non - UFO - periods.

01.01. - 24.1. : 24 Non - UFO periods 25.01. - 7.2. : 13 UFO - periods 8.2. - 28.2.: 20 Non - UFO - periods 1.-12.3.: 12 UFO - periods 13.03. - 1.4.: 19 Non -UFO periods 2.4.- 10.4.: 9 UFO - periods 11.4. - 30.4.: 20 Non - UFO periods May: 31 Non - UFO periods June: 30 July: 31 August: 24

I exclude 25.8. and following days, because there is no full 9 days period left, until the experiment begins.

Sum: 199 Non UFO - periods; 34 UFO periods is overall 233 periods. Check: Number of days 1.1. - 24.8. is 236 is 236 periods There is something wrong, but the watch works. Seems to be the real thing. I see two mistakes. But it doesn't really matter in this case. Probability for hitting a UFO period is ca. 34:199, ca. equivalent to 1:5,9. That is like throwing a dice.

Before computing the probability, I thought it would be like 1: 50 or 1: 100. But it is not that improbable. Maybe I made a mistake. I had some lessons about computing probabilities, but that was long ago. And there are real scientists among us... (part of me is squeaking with fear ;->). And the experimental design would never stand a test. I thought nobody would put money on a horse with the name: "Ralf dreams (and writes down dreams) about UFOs in one of the nights between 02.09. and 10.09.2001." But now I think different. On the other hand: If I exclude "spaceships" I couldn't compute any probability. It would be 0:236, meaningless. It is strange, but I never wrote the word UFO to name the flying objects, that were part of my earlier dreams this year.

I feel, that this more than pure coincidence. Let us take it as a success. As a hit. But not as a 100 percent proved ESP.

Here is my only one remembered dream of today:

Just back from a double wedding this weekend. I put on the ND mask, used the wake - alarm. I lie there, being awakened by cues again and again and try to focus on remembering my dreams, then writing them down and doing a MILD exercise. But in fact I go on sleeping and remember this dream: I'm lying in a bed. Under the blanket. SLB comes and takes away the blanket. Puts his hands on my forehead and on my right shoulder. I should relax. It is like he is supporting the onset of the 61 point exercise. It is strange, that he seems to be my personal teacher. I look around and see a long row of beds in this room. Maybe Maui - campers? Everybody is lying on bed without blanket (dressed...). So it seems to be OK that I, too, don't use it. I wonder why Stephen gives a lesson in Germany. It has to be very expensive to fly here for just some hours. I explain, that LI will somehow balance the costs.

Interesting dream. It somehow manages to fulfil my wish to do the MILD thing and to start getting up ( taking the blanket off). And it is like Owen said: The dreams are sometimes quite cunning in creating explanations for oddities.

CU

Yours Ralf

Greetings, All:

Wow, Ralf....I don't consciosly remember you mentioning your proximity to the Baltic Sea...I was so close!

zzzzZZZZZ( Close only counts with handgernades and Atom Bombs) z z z z Joe