Not really, just let myself drift off back to sleep. Being a little groggy on awakening helps. I just lay still, keep my mind quiet, and soon I just seem to find myself dreaming with awareness. I do know that I don't go consciously into a WILD, I do lose consciousness briefly first. I have had many more WILDs than DILDs, and they usually begin in a classic OOBE form, with me standing in my dream bedroom wondering how I got there from bed.

House for Sale -- Fire place

Hello everyone! I've be trying to have LD's ever since the retreat in March, yet only working at it part of the time, and having a LD once every 1-2 weeks. Well, I just found what the most powerful LD is -- for me at least -- as it gave me 3 LD in the same night! The technique is simple: it's the wake up a few hours before getting up (preferably at the end of a REM period or, I would guess, if you wake up from a dream), staying up for 1-2 hours, then going back to sleep. The results were absolutely astonishing. The degree of consciousness in the dreams was amazing -- and now if I can just practice staying in the dream longer -- and managing to get up for a bit each morning, I'll have a great sandbox to play with!

A bientot,

philippe

Hi dreamers! I just had a question Id like to ask.. anyone who has an opinion please answer.. what is the differance between an [OBE] and rolling or falling out of your sleeping body in a dream situation? or dream flying? As I understand it from my own research on the net an OBE or astral projection is not considered a dream at all?? I read that some [obe] people have actualy entered buildings they have never been in before and discribed what they saw inside acuratley the next day!! So compairing this [obe] to dream flying lucid or not what is the diferance??? I experianced rising up out of my body seeing city buildings and street corners untill the image started to fragment and apear like a jigsaw puzzel and I woke up from the excitement.. This happened just a few days ago my [whole story] is near bottom of list in[first lucid dream] index..Before this happened I did get lucid and went through several dream scene changes then on last scene [city buildings] there was this strange [dot] smack in middle of the imagery just before I started to rise like a leaf in the wind my concentration went to that dot like a magnet and my whole body felt strange with a small pressure between my eyes and instantly started to rise with this noise I heard and felt weightless and more FREE than I ever felt..I felt as one with the wind and nature.. It was great! I experianced no fear at all!! What was that strange dot doing in my imagrey? It was like a dream target that was placed there for my benefit!! It almost seemed like someone else was controling my will when I focused on the dot that started my OBE in action. OR could I have dreamed ALL this???? Yikes!!!!!!

Hi Tom,

You'll find more conversation on the topic of OBEs under the topic folder titled: Research, Theory, and LI experiments: The LD - OBE connection

Once again I suggest that everyone interested in the fascinating topic of OBE read the elucidating article by LaBerge and Levitan at:

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin

Hi all you dreamsters.. I have been remembering at least 2 or 3 dreams a night for the last 8 or more weeks.. Many of them were very vivid! I mean things like walking down a path at night with the rain pouring down on me splashing through mud puddels lifting up low hanging wet branches as I walked down a trail. Then steping to the side to let a stranger pass.. Another dream just this morning I was scooping up raw earth in my hands and smelling how clean and sweet it was as the giant earth cleaning machines swept across the country side cleaning every thing in their path! Another dream I remember I was examining paper curency in my hands staring at it noticing every detail of the bills in COLOR and deciding that it was counterfit..Isnt this kind of vividness bordering on lucidity? I admit I was not aware that I was dreaming.. I feel very strong that /if I ever see an animal of any kind especialy a [FOX] I will become lucid..Must one know their dreaming while their dreaming to experiance lucid quality dreams? I was lucid a while back and experianced an [OBE] The dream was not too long I got excited and woke up.. darn! The diferance I noticed in the lucid experiance was like the volume and the video was turned up.the regular vivid dream vol and video was set at a lower level? Can any one tell me the diferences they noticed between the two types of dreams? thank you..

Tom:

Congratulations on your excellent dream recall! But be careful not to confuse vivid images with lucidity. By definition, you must be aware that you are dreaming in order to be lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is not an increase in quality; it is an establishment of awareness -- you can be lucid during dim, fuzzy dreams just as easily as you can during vivid, elaborate dreams.

Peter

Tom,

People generally don't want to say it straight out to avoid alienating others, but basically the evidence suggests, or screams rather, that what we call OBEs are actually lucid dreams in which we dream an OBE experience. People really, REALLY want to believe in an astral plane, but when studied with a rigorous scientific approach that exludes wishful thinking, OBEs are shown to be lucid dreams. It is really worth it to read and digest the article that Keelin posted. It deals with the topic while keeping an open, but scientific mind, like only one of the great paradigm busters of our time can do it. : )

Try this perspective on and see if it fits. You can always take it off if it doesn't. : )

Peter,

Speaking of fuzzy, I still rarely recognize my wife as a dream character in a lucid dream. After all this time, just about any time I see her in a lucid dream, I try in vain to convince her that she's dreaming so we can share the lucid dream together. She usually reacts as if I'm nuts, which itself could be residue from waking life. : )

Gordon:

That's funny (or odd, as Keelin might say). My wife is usually the only character I consistently recognize in dreams -- most of my dream guests are strangers. And, to compound the oddness, she almost invariably disappears when I become lucid. I have tried to bring her back, but that usually causes the lucidity to dissolve, followed by a non-lucid dream where I describe the dream I just had to her (and I get about the same reaction from her as you get from your wife!).

I'm glad we don't make interpretations in this forum ;)

Peter

Dear Peter, Gordon and all!

I have the same, but with most of people in LD. Once I get lucid, most of them automatically disappear. I guess there is no need to interpret that in a psychoanalytic way. ;) But I think, at least in my case, it is that the lucid consciousness automatically takes back many projections. But I'm not totally sure of this interpretation. Often I don't want to be deflected, once I'm lucid, for not to loose lucidity. Then I'm kind of happy I'm on my own... I met my spouse in an LD, nonetheless.

Ralf

Hi All,

Compared to y'all I'm a novice, having only taken the study of LD seriously since March. It's not easy, but I've been keeping a meticulous dream journal since mid-April. In April I had 2 LDs 5 days apart, followed by a 46 day dry spell. Last night I had a triple-header'3 in one night, let the flood gates open! Curiously, after waking from the first LD last night I had a slight headache. I rarely get headaches. Perhaps it was a coincidence, and I see no connection with being lucid. I regularly dream about family, co-workers and celebrities. Keeping a dream journal has allowed me to gather statistics about dream characters and dreamsigns. Furthermore, it has revealed how good my dream recall really is (up to 8 recalled in one night, all non-lucid), and it's helped me focus on documenting dream details. I also keep track of the times I go to bed, wake up after a dream, when I use the restroom and when I wake up in the morning. At the end of each month I count the number of times characters and specific signs occurred. By far, my wife is the most recurring dream character. In 3 out of 5 of the LDs I recognized the people I interacted with. For example, a person who rides my vanpool was my companion in my 3rd LD last night. In my second LD, I was with Kobe Bryant and Karl Malone of the LA Lakers (I proved to them that dreamers can out jump the pros). In my case it's obvious that I carry a lot of my waking reality into my dream reality. So be it. As for vividness, I can recall several dreams that were very vivid, though non-lucid. I confess that every LD I've experienced has been very vivid, nothing fuzzy or vague about them. While I'm yakking, I've also been keeping a record of my diet, in particular the vitamins and supplements I take each day and what I eat before bed. So far the only connection I see with LD and diet for me is how late I eat supper and how much I eat. A late meal that is filling, but not "super-sized" (gluttonous), with a small glass of wine or cold sake helps me sleep better. A relaxed sleep means less tossing and turning, and a brain that isn't having to move a body around. I realize that late meals are not supposed to be good for caloric storage, but I'm fortunate to have a fairly active metabolism. My helpful tip should be obvious by now'keep a good dream journal and pay attention to your diet.

Very Best,

Scot Stride

Hello!!! I don't quite agree about what you say about OBE's being a LD. I had dreams that I can easily recognize as LD, but others that I don't know what they are, so I assume they are OBE's or something very very strange, and I find a lot of differences between them. I had dreams in which I'm conscious but I do not direct the dream... and they are so vivid and clear, they almost seem like a trip to some other land!!! The kind of dreams we call OBE's are always WILD, either before going to sleep or in the midle of the night after a short awekening. There is always an awakening before they start, at least in my experience... not like LD that can be DILD. We must not know we know everything about our minds... there is soooo much more!!!!!

See you there....

Miss Sea Monkey,

I have found that the only difference between an LD and so-called OBE is that my level of awareness of what is really going on is lower in the OBE. I don't realize I'm dreaming, but I know something is different(therefore, I must be out-of-body).

Especially because of the unique feelings that often go along with a WILD induction, like vibrations, the feeling of lifting out of one's body, etc., I used to get confused about what it was. That happened a lot before I realized what was happening. I now know that these experiences have more to do with entering REM sleep with awareness, and that they are indeed dreams. Once I can tell myself "I'm dreaming", they're no different than any other LD.

Paul

Ahoy dreamers!! To you who are experianced in genuine lucid dreaming..My question is...ARE LUCID DREAMS EASYIER TO RECALL IN DETAIL THAN REGULAR and VIVID DREAMS???I would think LDs should be easyier to recall?? Ive only had a couple of lucid dreams over a long period.And lots of vivid and regular dreams.. Ive noticed that my recall some weeks is super! But other weeks is not as good.. I also understand that RECALL is EVERYTHiNG..If I only could boost my recall to a high level and keep it there that would be super!! Because I enjoy my regular and vivid dreams.atleast most of them.. I still am searching for lucidity..In My last LD The memory was [before the fact] like like being right there as It happened !But in regular or vivid dreams it seemed like [after the fact] I had to work a little harder to ,remember them. Does anyone else experiance it this way also?? Personaly I believe there are far more diferant types of dreams than just lucid or regular but I would like to talk on that subject a later time..Thank you..

Tom:

Though my experience is anecdotal, I've found LD's to be much more easily remembered than non-LD's. This is because LD's are a conscious event, and so they are stored by the brain as it would any other conscious event, which greatly increases their chances of being remembered rather than simply fading like a regular dream.

Peter

Peter. Thanks for your response..What you said about LDs being a conscious event sounds right to me. BUT..isnt there a level of conciousness in regular dreams? other wise how else would we remember them? Does this mean [concious memory] in lucid dreams? And [sub concious memory] in regular dreams? Or at least some other level of counciousness that science is not aware of? There is a web[ jay@memorysuccess.com] Its making claims it can help to improve your memory skills in a matter of minutes using their system of visualising mental pictures in relaition to what you want to remember.. If you have time could you look at the site and give an opinion? Could it help in relaiton to learning LDs ? Thanks..tom

Tom:

Regular dreams are indeed an "unconscious" event, and the brain treats them as such when it comes time to find (or, rather, deny) storage space for them. I would say that there is not a level of consciousness in regular dreams, or if there is one, it is insignificant. That's all I will say, though, in the hopes that someone with more formal knowledge in the consciousness department chimes in.

I checked out that memory site, and can honestly say that I couldn't tell you it might help with LD'ing. This is because the opening page tells you absolutely nothing. Of course, that might speak volumes to the skeptical reader! On that note, I also find it hard to believe that you can learn anything in just 22 minutes, much less skills that will raise your memory abilities above those of 96% of all humanity (since he can't know the memory skills of the people with whom I work, I assume that he must mean that his method elevates you above anybody). I didn't continue on to the next pages, but I think I saw enough to suggest that you pursue his offer (and any other offer of major self-improvement with almost no effort) carefully. If you do, and it does work toward lucidity, please let us know.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter and Tom, I think we are definitely conscious, in its broadest definition, in any dream, lucid or not. The brain is highly activated, as you know, in the dream state, and there is always a "self" that is present and that reflects upon and acts in response to dream events with a degree of awareness and discernment. We do evaluate,make decisions, even control our dream content somewhat without being lucid. The only difference is that we don't know that we are dreaming in normal dreams. Non-lucid does not equal unconscious, in my opinion.

Paul

Paul:

That "only difference" you note above is a substantial one. If consciousness equals awareness, yet we are not aware during normal dreams, where is the consciousness? If it is there at all, consciousness is operating at level low enough to preclude its recognition or use. Also, I'm not sure what truly rational decisions or evaluations we make in non-lucids, but any conscious contribution to them would be extremely minimal.

And yes, there is some aspect of self in all dreams, though that too is an incredibly malleable and dissociated aspect when compared with the self we are (potentially) aware of during waking life.

Sure, there must be some consciousness in non-lucid dreams, just as there is some light on a moonless night. But does the hiker really care about that light, after bumping into his third tree?

Peter

Peter, I did not say we were not aware during dreams, only that we are not aware that we are dreaming. We are most certainly aware of everything else that is going on. Don't we often have conversations with dream characters? Don't we make decisions routinely? And don't we miss or ignore dreamsigns because we try to logically attribute rational explanations to what we see. That means we think about the things that are happening. So where is the absence of consciousness?

As far as remembering dreams is concerned, try to remember in detail everything you did yesterday or two days ago. It's just like trying to remember a dream; it fades, even though you were "conscious" while it was going on."

I would say that most people are about as conscious in dreams as they are in the waking state.

Paul

I'm no consciousness expert, but rambling here while trying to tie some things together...

I tend to agree with Paul, and would like to briefly add that, while my earlier tangent re im/material instrumentation (in "The Critical Question") didn't really go here, my intended destination was somewhere near the idea that the belief in ethereality may have something to do with real-izing consciousness, how sensations and thoughts "exist" in some "space." A book, for example: materially, it is a collection of ink blotches (and reformatted trees, etc.); immaterially, it is a collection of people, places, things, actions, ideas, emotions that can experienced quite real-istically. I wonder if the astral plane was born out of our struggle to comprehend these two worlds, one outside our minds and one inside, and both inseparable on some level. Also, the immaterial can be experienced with varying degrees of real-ism (not to say anything of the immateriality of our experiences of the material--I can touch a strawberry, but I cannot touch touch). Also, also in our intuition that there exist various levels of materiality, which science seems to be confirming more and more as it evolves: from heaven and earth, to solids to gases, to matter is really energy vibrating slowly enough to materialize.

The work done by TLI to show that OBEs may indeed be lucid dreams supports this line of reasoning, if indirectly.

On a related note, but more to the point of consciousness per se, I tend to think of any sensation or awareness as being some level of consciousness (someone once talked about the consciousness of a flower which turns toward the sun; I cannot recall who, now), including the very dynamic human consciousness, which bares such complexities as self-awareness and abstract thought. There certainly seems to be some level of sensation and awareness in dreams, ergo I would consider dreams conscious activity, but at a different level of consciousness than lucid dreams. C.f. the consciousness of someone in an isolation tank, where sensations and awareness are turned inward instead of experienced from without.

Joshua

Paul:

I must continue to disagree, because I simply do not see the awareness during normal dreams that you discuss. Are we really conscious when we are having non-lucid conversations with dream characters, during which we believe anything that they say, and respond with absurdities that would simply not make sense in waking life? For example:

During a dream involving an exhausting walk across a searing desert, a six-foot tall purple frog taps a dreamer on the shoulder from behind, and says, "Sir, sir, you must help! The map has been folded at its middle, and the people in Peoria will be crushed."

"No worries," the dreamer responds with perfect confidence, "The cake will be ready regardless." He closes his car door and drives across the water, leaving the frog and its plight behind because the giant yellow tentacles rising from the swirling red water have usurped his attention. He decides to race the tentacles to the distant pink shore, where his favorite tiki bar awaits on pearly green sand.

Which part of the above involves consciousness? Is the dreamer rational when he pooh-poohs warnings from a giant purple frog? Where is the consciousness when he accepts without question that people will die because a map is folding, and that all were saved because a cake is ready? Yes, a conversation is taking place, but does it really include conscious input? If it did, would the dreamer really find solace in a cake being ready? Did the dreamer decide to race the tentacles, or was that decision made for him by the "plot" of the dream? Wouldn't even a minimally conscious person find any part of this decision absurd?

When we apply "logic" to dismiss dreamsigns, doesn't that application defy consciousness -- and logic -- itself? After all, the rationale we use to justify the reality of, say, a giant talking purple frog, must by definition be driven by very little rational thought! Are we really thinking thoughts, or are we being provided thoughts by our dreaming mind in the name of continuity (or maintaining a natural order)?

Isn't drawing consciousness into a dream the primary technical point of lucid dreaming? Isn't awareness of your presence in a dream the primary goal? If you are already aware in a dream, then why bother becoming lucid? And again, if the awareness is below the horizon of perceivable consciousness, then it really isn't there -- and neither is the consciousness.

Regarding fading memories: Sure, memories of modest waking events like flushing a toilet, flipping a light switch, watching a bad sitcom, or chatting with the mailman fade quickly. But it's been over thirty years since my first kiss, and I still remember it perfectly, as I do the last time I saw my mother in 1983, passages from great books,long meaningful conversations with dear friends, or sunrise at Kalani. Most memories are incidental and fade quickly for the sake of mental tidiness. But some memories are saved permanently because the event merited preservation. Lucid dreams, for me anyway, are events of that quality.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

P.S. I would also say that most people are about as conscious in dreams as they are in the waking state, but that only means that more lucidity, and less reality TV and Network News, is needed when one is awake.

Joshua:

Good points, all, and excellent support to Paul's statement that consciousness exists at all times.

I will reluctantly agree with that, but: when the level of consciousness is reduced to a point where you are unable to be aware of your self, and where you accept the non-reality of your surroundings as real, consciousness no longer suffices as a tool for comprehending "You," or your surroundings. This is what happens in non-lucid dreams.

Consciousness, as we define it, fails in our minds' attempt to marry those "two worlds." Other tools, like intuition, archetypical symbolism, and emotion rise to service in non-lucid dreams as consciousness backs off. These alternate influences to our "ethereal" perception, if you will, is what we try to understand by becoming lucid and adding consciousness, awareness, to the mix.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter, I remember some non-lucid dreams with the same emotional recall as I remember many important events in my life. I've also had dramatic lucid dreams where I awoke and could barely remember the details. Lucid dreams have a degree of consciousness above non-lucid dreams by virtue of the awareness that you're dreaming, but that doesn't mean there's no consciousness at all in non-lucid dreams.

Just think about how many unusual things happen around us all the time that we either pay no attention to, or whose reality we never question. We tend to believe what we see, whether we're dreaming or awake.

Now, suppose you're awake but lost in a daydream--lost in thought, perhaps wandering around in the remembered past or projected future. Compare that state to being focused and attentive to the present moment, fully aware. You're conscious in both states, but moreso in the latter. That, I believe, is the essential difference between non-lucid and lucid dreams, namely a greater sense of presence in the latter.

I think that it's this greater presence that gives LD's that feeling of being there, that vividness, like one is fully awake and aware in the dream.

Paul

Peter:

Excellent post script. I was thinking something similar.

[When] the level of consciousness is reduced to a point where you are unable to be aware of your self, and where you accept the non-reality of your surroundings as real, consciousness no longer suffices as a tool for comprehending "You," or your surroundings.

Excellent point. I wonder; compare the consciousness of a human to, say, the consciousness of a dog. I would likely take a state test if I saw I a giant purple frog in waking life, but might easily accept the existence of such a frog in a dream (hopefully, I'd still take a state test, get lucid, and buy my big, purple friend a Guinness at the local pub--because, you know, there just isn't enough time to drink in waking life [smile]). A dog, on the other hand, would probably not consider the unrealistic-ness of a giant purple frog in waking life. The dog would react to the frog as any other object in its environment, however dogs do (threat assessment, food assessment, whatever). This is not due to any unconsciousness on the part of the dog, but to a different consciousness than I possess, which includes some pretty strong notions of froggy-ness; I am likely to freak a little (or a lot) when I encounter something radically different. Also, compare the dog's awareness of self to mine: is the dog ever aware of itself, or does it act on behalf of itself without any notion of itself?

Joshua

Paul:

I considered some similar analogies, and wonder how this might fit in:

William Burroughs described an experiment in which a person with a video camera walks down a street recording everything their eyes see as accurately as possible, while other, fixed cameras capture wide-angle views of the entire street. At this point, I will leave off from Burroughs' experiment and use what of it I have for my own means. In comparing the first camera's output to the person's memory, there will be many things in the former that have been forgotten by the latter, or went unnoticed while they were recording (there is some connection between what is forgotten and what goes unnoticed; the unnoticed is just that: something we don't take notice of; we actually see it, but we forget it as unimportant). The other cameras' outputs can be used to see everything the person didn't; I don't know they have much use here--since what we do not experience in dreams does not exist in dreams (?)--other than to have that idea in mind for the rest.

I have a similar experience when I view a non-lucid dreamscape (as well as a lucid one, but I'm making a case for NLDs, here). E.g., if I walk down a busy street in a dream, I can, upon waking, recall more details about those things which grabbed my attention than those that didn't. I remember there were other people, but not what they looked like. I remember there were signs posted in the windows, but not what they said. Et cetera. (In fairness, I admit my recall of dreams is, on average, significantly less than my recall of waking events, even for dreams I give effort to record, and I experience a typical increase in vividness of dreamscape upon becoming lucid.)

If not for consciousness, how do I explain that there seems to be, even in dreams, such a distinguishing between my point of view and my environment? Why do the peripheral details fade away while the focuses of my attention persist? Indeed, why is there a periphery at all?

Joshua

Paul/Joshua:

Fair enough. I guess I was trying, poorly, to elevate the importance of consciousness in lucid dreaming. I hoped to separate the consciousness that accompanies awareness from the consciousness that exists at all times in humans (or dogs, per Joshua). I was also never one for levels, so I'm going to get a bit stubborn when I'm told unconsciousness is simply another level of consciousness -- it mostly likely is, I'll concede, but that concept doesn't follow logically for me (hence the hapless hiker bumping into trees on a moonlit night).

Thanks for the thoughtful exchange,

Peter

Joshua:

I don't know if your last question to me was retorical, but as far as we know the dog is never aware of itself, and does act on behalf of itself without any notion of itself. At least that's what science tells us. But maybe we arrogant humans are just unwilling to admit that other critters than us can possess self-awareness. ;)

Peter

Peter:

The question was part rhetorical, part not, because you're right: other critters--including dogs--may be self-aware, even though we humans don't see it that way.

Not that you require my validation [smile], but I think all your points are valid. I would say there is certainly a difference between LD and NLD consciousness-es, and as I've participated in this conversation, I have wondered what that difference is, and have yet to arrive at a conclusion. As a cybernetics enthusiast, I often think in terms of processes (with inputs and outputs and whatnots) and change, i.e., how two things are recognisably different, or how one thing transforms into another (as William Ashby put it, "[Cybernetics] does not ask 'what is this thing?' but 'what does it do?'"). This may have to do with why I have a hard time seeing LD and NLD as conscious and unconscious, respectively, because I notice so many similarities in their respective behaviours (the dream itself seems to introduce some kind of consciousness between asleep-as-unconsciousness and awake-as-typical-consciousness). Yet, again, there is that critical difference which we call lucidity, and perhaps this group, which explores so many aspects of this very subject, will shed new light on what it means to be conscious.

Fiat lux.

Joshua

Thomas, Peter, Paul and Joshua - I feel as if my name should be Rebecca or Leah in order to enter this thread. I was thinking before reading these postings about how much easier it is to recall LD's then it is to recall nonlucids, and I felt, just as Peter does, that the reason for this is the fact that in LD's, our consciousness is involved. I feel exactly as he does, i.e.; that recalling the events in LD's is the same as recalling events in waking life. Whereas nonlucids easily fade from memory without an effort to record them mentally. And even then, I have often carefully recalled the details and progression of a nonlucid only to still forget it after falling asleep again. (I find that if I name the nonlucids, it helps me to recall them later.) And when thinking back on my LD's from the past I can always access the details with the same strength of memory I have when recalling events in waking life that stood out for me. I can also vividly recall a lot of nonlucids, many from years ago, but not all of them by any means. Whereas my recall is always waking-life style in all my LD's. And the mental "feeling" of recall in LD's is the same as it is for me in recalling waking life events. And most of my remembered nonlucids are quite detailed and complex, for whatever reason. I agree with Peter re: isn't the fact that one is conscious ' as in waking life conscious ' within a dream the defining factor of an LD? And I agree with him that all the reactions we have in nonlucids, though mimicking waking reactions at heart, are reactions we are dreaming we are having, as opposed to reactions we have when lucid. But if Paul and Joshua are referencing the concept of the dreaming world and the waking world being simply two different levels of mental and/or spiritual existence, I actually am attempting to fully wrap my brain around that concept right now. Primarily to assist my ability to LD, and to open myself up in general to what's available in life. I now say "waking life" instead of "reality" for that reason. But so far, my actual experiential understanding of dreaming has me see things Peter's way re the above discussion. As far as animals go, I never thought about their self-awareness, but having dealt with them all my life, primarily cats and dogs, it is clear to me that they are just like humans, only simpler and not intellectual. They love, they assess facts as they see them in order to determine the best course of action, they get depressed when a loved one is gone, they revel in good circumstances, they have a sense of fun and often a sense of humor, etc. I think many people simply do not care to visualize animals that way. But as we constantly see on this site, much is open to the individual's own interpretation. (I hope this does not open up a discussion re animals because I know that is off the point.) Regards to all, Kate

Kate:

Thanks for chiming in. Yeah, I've been tempted to call Tom Thomas for the same reason. [smile]

[Isn't] the fact that one is conscious

• as in waking life conscious - within a dream the defining factor of an LD?

I would say, yes, it is, and therefore I agree with you and Peter. But here you have already identified a particular consciousness: "conscious - as in waking life conscious." My point (if I have one; I see myself, here, more as wandering within the vicinity of something than moving steadfastly toward it) is somewhere about there being more consciousness than "waking life" consciousness, that the latter is a peculiarity (although it seems to be the norm), and there exist various levels of consciousness even within it. So, while I can say that what separates a LD from a NLD is waking-life consciousness, that does not imply a NLD is an unconscious event; it is a not-like-waking-life-conscious event, and even that description could use some refinement. Splitting hairs? Perhaps. But, for me, the difference opens up a world of wonder about what makes waking-life consciousness--and ergo LD consciousness-- special.

Dog disclaimer: wherever I have used "waking-life conscious/ness" in this post, I have assumed the human variety.

Joshua

Hi, Joshua. I think I understood that the above is what you meant in your previous postings. "...there exist various levels of consciousness even within" waking consciousness. Could you give some examples of what you are referring to? Do you mean the sort of things Carlos Castenada writes of? I see the point Paul was making about how we reason and - unfortunately - rationalize bizarre events in NLD's. It still is totally different from being conscious of your waking life while inside a dream. But on the other hand, the logic and analysis do imply a certain level or type of consciousness within the NLD. Peter points out the difference between "dream logic" and waking logic. But as someone also pointed out, perhaps the difference in reasoning between the LD and NLD states has to do with the difference in circumstances between those states. Always an intriguing topic.... Regards, Kate

Kate:

I wonder if Peter will ask us to move this conversation, soon.

Perhaps we should define what we mean by conscious/ness here; I do tend to use it pretty loosely in regard to sensation and awareness. We could probably go on at some length about the differences and dependencies between sensation and awareness, but to the question you brought up, and then I'll return to semantics:

First, the examples in my previous postings; that's why I mentioned the dog. Dog-waking-consciousness and human-waking-consciousness have some obvious similarities and, it would also appear, some remarkable differences, as in the case of my reaction to Peter's big, purple frog vs. the canine's. As both the dog and I are awake, we are both conscious, I think we would all agree. But the big, purple frog might drive me insane Howard Lovecraft style, or cause a paradigm shift, or a state test, or whatever, something subjective; whereas the dog's reaction would be more objective. I think the difference has something to do with consciousness, and if that's the case, then we can say there are at least two distinct flavors of waking-life consciousness (c.f., also, the flower I mentioned, which is an interesting example, because a flower is never awake or asleep, as far as we know; it is sun-conscious [smile]).

Second--and I think Paul and Peter hit this, too--just as we can be awake within a dream, we can be in a stupor while awake, and in various phases in between. While I did not intend anything esoteric or spiritual, as far as Castaneda and tensegrity are concerned--and we may add astral travelers, users of various chemicals, and gluttons for reality TV and network news, not because they're all the same--sure, there appear to be various expressions of consciousness among "waking" people. So, what is the critical characteristic of being awake?

Let's compare the first Merriam-Webster definition of conscious,

perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation

to the same's second definition of consciousness,

the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought

I think as far as lucidity is concerned, the key is in the first definition: a degree of control. I think--if I may--this has been Peter's main theme all along. He's quite right as far as I'm concerned, and I concede at some point I'll have to leave it at that. My questions and comments have been about that degree, and about the latter definition, with volition being the fuzziest term there for me in regards to dreaming (I seem to make choices when I NLD, but they do not seem conscious choices).

Sorry if I'm recycling too much here; it's difficult to discuss one thing without putting it in context of things already discussed (not to mention, I've not had any recent breakthroughs regarding levels of waking-life consciousness).

Joshua

Joshua:

No need to move this thread -- I can't think of a more helpful tool toward getting started with lucid dreaming than a thoughtful attempt to gain a clear understanding of consciousness.

Thanks to all for a most fascinating discussion!

Peter

Hi. I re-read the above July postings''' Maybe "consciousness" is a matter of semantics when it comes to my part in the discussion. Also, my own personality probably defines the content of my dreams, and my behavior in them. I actually reason a lot in my NLD's ' for instance, in an NLD the other night I was at work and felt I had to handle some stray cats for the night. I thought of shutting them in my office area. Then I thought how housekeeping would come and they might let the cats out or feel they should do something about them. So I thought how I could put a sign on the door saying we did not want housekeeping to come that night. So even though I wasn't lucid, I still thought about waking life circumstances. But that's me ' I never dream of purple frogs and people being crushed because a map was bent. Maybe that can change. It's certainly cool and imaginative. I see Paul's point about daydreaming ' when one is focusing totally on what is going on in one's mind, even though not asleep, one becomes unaware of the circumstances around one. One is in a state in which one's perceptions differ from most of the people around one. Maybe that's why they call it daydreaming. The Webster definitions of consciousness seem to me like definitions of sentient ness. In other words, the condition of something alive as opposed to something inanimate. Joshua, you are right ' I referred to "levels of consciousness" by saying lucidity is being conscious "as in waking life consciousness" while in a dream. There is a clear distinction for me, and what defines LD's for me is the ability to experience with my waking mind what feels to me like another world. I can't even describe how much and in what ways I love that world. Even if I did absolutely nothing to impact that world, it would still be wonderful just to experience being there. I don't get that experience in NLD's. Because I am not "waking life conscious" in them. And I guess that's all I know - my personal experience of the whole thing. As to defining consciousness and determining whether there are different levels of it or whether there is only one clear state of being conscious, I guess I'm open. Peter ' sorry to use the "L" word so often. Hope I have not shocked your sensibilities. (Also hope you realize that is a joke!) Regards and good lucid luck to all, Kate

Hi to fellow and future lucid dreamers. Tom - I wanted to note something to you, since it was your question re waking recall in NLD's vs. LD's that started the above conversation - (which seems to have stalled.) This am I had a LD and I can't recall most of it! I awoke out of it and then went back to sleep, and I did not try to memorize it because I thought that would be no more necessary than memorizing my activities at work yesterday. But I was wrong!!!! I recall how I got lucid (noticing something that made no sense in waking life.) And I recall that most of the LD involved moving quickly through the dream environment. I recall I felt confident the lucidity would last and that I kept repeating "lucidity x 1,ooo" to myself over and over for a while. I recall avoiding something that I felt would cause me to wake (just as I did in my last LD) but not what that was. I recall deciding I should impact the dream and considering changing the color of something. But I don't recall what I avoided, what I tried to transform or what my environment was like. Go figure. Regards, Kate