Bravo, Ralf! I thoroughly enjoyed your website, especially the photos from "camp". Please post some more, for those of us who couldn't be there. (Though I did follow your adventures through the threads on this forum.)

Perhaps we'll meet someday in the Court of Morpheus!

"Don

Hi, fellow dreamers

Kate and Naomi:

Until now, I haven't found a way - and I think there is no way - to post pictures to the forum. Except for uploading a picture to your profile (that is what I did). There is not enough space for (more) pictures on the LI - Forum's server. What I did was to post dream - related art to Barbara (as an email - attachment). Maybe her website doesn't exist anymore. Maybe she is still on vacation. I think it would be best, if she answered this questions.

Don

Glad, that you liked my site. I'll continue work, once I have the time.

Yeah, CU in LD - wonderland

Ralf

Ralf - Here's my dream that reminds me of what you posted, in that I think it shows fear on my part to experience what lucid dreaming can bring. Jan 9 This was probably my last dream, but I liked it the best. Just fragments, as usual" I was moving along the front of a huge, white, stucco building. It was a ledge not far from the ground, but it seemed too high to jump down. There was someone in the parking lot watching me, a vague figure, male. I think I was waiting for someone inside the building. The building was SoCal modern-looking, with a classical influence ' clean and spare and bright, as if the architect had been thinking of a Greek island. It rose up a steep hillside. I was making my way along the ledge, because I wanted to see what was at the right side of the building. The side I had just come from, the left side, was just a wall. You couldn't walk up the hillside ' the ledge just stopped. I wanted to see whether on the right side, the ledge would let me continue around the side of the building and up the hillside. I thought it wouldn't, but at the same time I had some hope ' I wasn't convinced of the outcome. As I almost reached the end of the front of the building, I saw that I could turn right. As I got closer, I figured there was just an alcove or something that would indent for a short space only. But it didn't stop! I saw that the indent led to long stairs up the hillside, with a closed door at the top. It looked kind of like a condo complex stairway, with landings and doors along the way. I was very happy about this, and clapped my hands and exclaimed. I was conscious then of the person in the parking lot watching me. I was looking forward to going up the stairs. But I was afraid to go yet because there were a lot of shadows among the whiteness. I wasn't ready to go up the stairs yet. So I started making my way back along the front of the building. This time I had to climb around large columns and jump to each next column base. I felt at some risk but was actually confident I wouldn't fall. There were children gathered partway along, doing something. I was moving towards them. I had a sense they were more knowledgeable than regular children. Not street-wise, exactly, but more knowing. That's all I remember. The symbolism of left brain/right brain seems an obvious interpretation here. And after thinking of the possible representation of women in your dreams guiding you to your intuitive side, I thought about the possible meaning of the male figure who watched me in the parking lot as representing the "male" traits of left brain thinking constraining me. Anyway, I was thinking the dream could be touching on a possible fear on my part to ld now. Now that I've been doing all this reading that talks about lucid dreaming being an opening to other worlds and spiritual places. When I saw dreams as purely something our minds came up with - for the most part - all I wanted to do was get inside and explore. Now, it looks different to me. All comments from anyone would be greatly welcome. Success in lucids to all, Kate

Hi, Kate -

I think that's a lovely symbolic dream - the kind that, if I woke up from, I'd be thinking "Now this dream must MEAN something!" - and it seems to fit your interpretation of it very well. I don't feel qualified to suggest specific interpretations to other people's dreams unless I know them very well, but I do feel at liberty to applaud their own interpretations!

It's interesting to me that you might fear exploring "other worlds and spiritual places" in lucid dreams. My own leap into intentional lucid dreaming was motivated by the spiritual possibilities and in the short time since then I've gained a tiny speck of knowledge about, and a big affinity for, Tibetan dream yoga traditions. What we perceive as the world, they call "dualistic" reality: reality perceived via two-sided concepts like me-and-you, us-and-them, people-and-things, matter-and-energy, gods-and-mortals, good-and-bad - all based on the ultimate dualistic distinction between the perceiving self and everything else. They say duality is a dream; "waking" - enlightenment - is discovering it's all one. To them the purpose of lucid dreaming is to gain experience in the joy of perceiving our concepts of reality as provisional and malleable and dependent upon the state we're in.

So - via that concept, other worlds, spiritual places and everything else we encounter awake or asleep is ALL something our minds come up with. Why not explore it in dreams, and maybe see aspects we wouldn't discover when constrained by our physical senses?

Your feeling of confidence in the face of risk is a very lucid-dream characteristic. I doubt the shadows hold anything you're not ready to encounter. Lucidity is the light you carry in your dreams to illuminate the shadowy places - nothing stays scary for long when you know it's just a dream.

What do you think about the children? One prominent characteristic of childhood wisdom is that children do things just for fun, without trying to judge how profitably they may be investing their time and energy....

Beckoning playfully from a shadowy landing near the bottom of the stairs,

Joy

Hi, Joy. Thanks for your insightful and interested comments. It was helpful, what you said about the Tibetan concepts. It put me back more in the former mindset I had of the other world being only inside my own head. I think the fear thing is more about what I or others might find out about myself, or about more being asked of me than I want to give. I keep reading about these shamans who were forced into shamanism by threats of bad life consequences if they wouldn't do what was wanted by shaman ancestors and whoever. But I suppose with fear, it's always something driving it. If it weren't one issue, there'd be some other issue rushing in to fill the vacuum. "Fear is the mind-killer." (from Dune by Frank Herbert.) I didn't know what to think about the children. But once you mentioned about children doing things for fun, without judging how "wisely" they're using their time, I thought about the part that struck me about the children - that they seemed knowing. So I thought about, maybe I was supposed to learn from the children. What you suggested as the possible lesson sounds apt. In connection with that, I was thinking also about how children have that sense of boundless time. And that I come from the outlook that time is limited. I'm getting older, time is passing, I don't have a lot of free time, etc. Talk about constrained thinking. And I recall that the last ld I had, was on a day where I felt I had time, and I just let the day take me, and it was all very relaxed. I got a cd of drumming by Michael Harner. So far nothing much has happened with this, but I haven't had a chance to use it too much. Sometimes it gives me a swimmy feeling in my head, the way I recall getting from being in a fever, and that I've woken up with after an ld. So that seems promising. Congratulations on going to Maui! Somehow none of that seems real to me, either. Happy dreams, Kate

Hi everyone,

I'm a beginner. I started reality tests 6 months ago (!). I ordered the NovaDreamer, and I'm using it every night for 2 months, but still no success. Usually I can remember one dream/night. Does anyone any idea why I cannot achieve any result in LD???

Balazs

Dear Balazs!

Welcome to the forum, fellow masked dreamer! [*]-)

Ideas: Many

I need more details to answer your question more precisely:

How many RC do you do per day? How do you do them? Did you do the "looking - for - lights" exercise? Do you include lights and mechanical malfunctions in your daily RC schedule? What are your ND settings? Did you recognise any ND cues in your dreams until now? Do you customise the settings to the changes in sleep quality and length and number of cue - awakenings? What else - besides RC and using the mask - do you do to achieve lucidity?

Feel free to mail. We will do our very best to help you. I must confess, that I'm not the most practised ND user. But I had lucid dreams cued by ND mask. I had to try some months for my first "induced" lucid dream (without the mask). It is a good sign, that you are still trying. It is so important not to give up. But it is important to use the most effective techniques, too.

Let the light come shine!

Yours Ralf

P.S. Did you read the thread "Induction Devices?"

Welcome, Balazs. Keep trying - it's worth it.

Kate

Balazs....novadreamer

I am uniquely qualified to comment on the Novadreamer as I don't possess one and have never tried one.

It concerns me that novice lucid dreamers might be lead into the false expectations of the novadreamer. I think it comes with a very careful and structured training progamme but I wonder if some people are too impatient to follow it carefully. I'm not saying you are just talking generally.

I do know one individual locally who has the novadreamer. Talking to this person I had the impression that he had the expectation that the light cue should almost force a LD. It did not and he was disappointed and stopped using the novadreamer. He did not and does not have LDs and I think he thought that the novadreamer would magically do the trick.

I think it must be necessary to train very carefully to be triggered into an LD by the cue just like when not using a novadreamer.

Do you wake yourself up in the night to record your dreams, in particular any hints of light cues etc before going back to sleep.

Actually I cannot recall posters (eg Ralf) give an indication of how many of their LDs are actually triggered by the novadreamer and how many are not relative of course to the times they wear it.

Owen

Dear Owen

I largely agree with you. The ND isn't a kind of lucid dream - producer, and it isn't meant to be. I wear it in phases. And I can say, that I still work on the adjustments. For me it is that I rarely recall incorporated cues, and I rarely have ND triggered LDs. Nonetheless I think, that wearing the mask is a ritual, that helps focussing on LD. I must confess, that I don't continuously do prospective memory tasks /RC /RI , but if I do they include looking for lights and mechanical malfunctions. I suspect, that I should work more intense on the ND related dreamsigns. But I'm rather satisfied with the MILD exercise. Had another short (OBE - like) LD this morning, using the MILD exercise.

Still looking for the light

Yours Ralf

Hi,

Thank you for your help!

Ralf: I do 3-10 RCs a day. It depends...I do it when it comes to my mind. My RC: I look at my watch, then I think through the last 30-60 minutes, then I look at my watch again. Maybe I should change it... I did the lookin for lights exercise, but it's really rare to catch flashing lights in real life. I don't include lights during RC. How should I do it? My ND settings are really strong, mode 4 (the strongest lights, and beeping sound). I've made my own setup too (longer cue period), but it didn't work either. I experienced an ND clue twice in two months. Both of them was in one night (after a really hard day). But both times I woke up. I also had a self induced awakening, without RC in dream. I just realized it's a dream, but I woke up immediately. I've read the other topic too.

Owen: You're right. I didn't follow the programme carefully. I'm like your friend who was impatient too. But it's still a question why the RCs didn't work. I don't wake up myself during night to write down my dream (should I?), but I write down in the morning in my bed (as much as I can remember).

Kate: I won't give up. That's for sure!

One more thing: My sister (she is 15) did RCs for one month, until her success. She had an LD for aprox 1 minute. She said it was amazing, but very scary, because she "felt herself so alone, like never in her life". So she stopped RCs. It might scared me unconsiously...

Thanks again for all your help!

Balazs

Hi, Balazs

The thing about RCs is, that you really have to doubt, you have to get into the mood to doubt, although you are totally convinced, that you are not dreaming. We think so in most our dreams... 3-10 RC's are ok. You think back 30 -60 minutes. I think and have read, that 5 minutes are enough to discover flaws in the dreamplot. Don't make it too complicated or long. I (I still feel like a beginner) have the impression, that lucid moments are very short. And the subconscious needs clear "advice", that is short, intense and precise advise. So you have to find a way to do a short and intense RC. Practically: You have to come to your conclusion within seconds, if you don't want your attention to be lost in the ongoing dream (or "waking" life) again. Do you only RCs or do you reflection /intention exercises, too? After the RC is done and you know, you are not dreaming, you have to get into the dreamy mood. The best for me is to recall a late dream (of today). This mostly creates the right mood. And then I imagine the dreamsign and then myself getting lucid in the presence of this sign. To you prospective memory tasks (i.e. planned RCs)? I found this, combined with reflection /intention exercises being the most effective method. It is REALLY important to learn catch the FIRST appearance of the chosen (dream)sign.

Looking for lights: It doesn't have to be a flashing light. Examples of other incorporations are: Bright sunlight, Blinking little (red) lights (like LEDs of a camera etc.), light effects in TV, traffic lights, turning on light in your bedroom, opening the fridge in the night, blinking lights of cars, ambulances, burning UFOs, exploding fuel tanks, ... and all the other everyday experiences.

ND settings: Do you set a delay in the first hours of the night? Do you sometimes sleep without mask to get enough rest and for not to get desensitised for the light and sound cues? Try these suggestions, If you hadn't already. Seems, that the intensity of your settings is at the limit. My advice is to work more on dream - sign (and ND - cue) awareness. And limit the time, when cues are delivered by ND mask to the early morning hours, after you have got some sleep. Lucid dreams are much more frequent in the morning hours, than in the early night.

If this doesn't work, don't use the mask for maybe two weeks. Get enough sleep. Maybe try the MILD exercise.

My first lucid moment after some month of real high dedication to LD training was like being burned. I realised, I was dreaming and immediately burned like pure gasoline. I think one could call that over - motivated without overdrawing. I still work on keeping somewhat cooler.

Being alone: Yes, that is true. I had this intense feeling, too. But somehow you get used to it. Just think of the incomparable freedom in lucid dreams! And emotions may be even higher in LDs, than in waking life. Maybe sometimes our emotions are somehow magnified in our dreams. I think the fear of being alone (at least for me) relates to being alone with this uncommon experiences, too. You only find few people for exchange on this topic. That is why this forum is so helpful and motivating. Fear is one of my greatest obstacles in lucid dreaming, as it is in life. I got over my fear many times in LD and in life. I can say, it is rewarding and it sets so much free. I hope your sister returns on the lucid path some day. It isn't easy to forget a lucid dream, anyway, especially when you only had one in your life. I had one LD when I was ten years or so. I never forgot it, until I was 33 and started my second (and now successful) attempt to have lucid dreams at will.

Enough for today

CU in LD

Ralf

Hello, everyone...

I'm just getting started on my attempts at lucid dreaming. I've been at it for about a month . . . with no luck. I believe that I've come close one two occasions: one where my daily RCs and talking to people about induction techniques bled into a dream . . . and another where the post-it notepad that I had written "Am I Dreaming?" on appeared in a dream used as markers for certain rooms of an old house (none of the notes had "Am I Dreaming?" written on them in the dream, sadly).

I've been very good with my Reflection/Intention exercises during the day, and have tried autosuggestion, MILD and counting myself into sleep ("1 . . I'm dreaming. 2 . . . I'm dreaming. Etc., etc.) many times. So far, no luck.

I'm not frustrated, but, of course, I'm beginning to think that I might be approaching things incorrectly. I recall at least one dream per night--and sometimes 3 or more. I've been keeping a regular dream journal. My dreamsigns are mainly context-oriented as well. I haven't been recognizing them in dreams, though--even though many dreams had plenty of dreamsigns that I should have noticed.

I understand that it will take time. I've even given myself a short-term goal of having one lucid dream by June 30.

I was hoping some of you might have some suggestions that you could offer. If you need more information, just let me know.

Looking forward to my first lucid dream, Jeff

Try setting a short-term goal of one lucid dream by tomorrow morning. Hey, why not?

Joy

Jeff

I started experimenting with lucid dreaming about a year ago and as of February of this year had one lucid dream. I went on the retreat to Kalani with the Lucidity Institute in February and I have had nine since. If it is at all an option, maximize your efforts over a 10 day period in paradise, and you'll come back with the right kind of intent.

( : smyles : )

Jeff,

I've been practicing inducing LDs for nearly two years now. It was three months before I had my first LD. Now I'm having success that I'm content with, quite a few LDs.

Your seem to be doing the right thing. If you want to have LDs and keep on with the practice you're sure to succeed. You must want to succeed.

The things you describe in your first paragraph suggest to me that you are nearly there.

Remember that many experienced LDers miss the bulk of dreamsigns. Have you tried waking yourself up completely before doing MILD.

Owen

Thanks, everyone, for the tips and comments. I'm up now at 4:38am, reading the forum, having a glass of milk and getting ready to head back to dreaming for 2 hours. I'll keep you posted on when my first lucid dream happens!

Jeff

Hello again!

I certainly didn't expect to come right back so soon . . . but I did it! Please see my full posting in the "Post Your First Lucid Dreams" section!

I've been so energized today. I hope that I can sleep tonight!

Jeff

Hi fellow dreamers,

I'll put my posting here as it seems to be the most relevant place for it. Please feel free to move it if deemed more appropriate elsewhere.

At the moment I have been recalling dreams in the morning after getting up and having breakfast. Whilst I have managed to capture a fair bit of detail from the dreams most nights in the last two weeks the last four nights have been mere fragments and unsatisfactory.

I want to improve my ability to recall and record at least in brief the details of a dream immediately upon waking and establish it as a regular habit. Somehow I need to improve my willpower to overcome my body's (or mind's?) desire to return straight to sleep, to remain still upon waking and record only the essential details, feelings and anything said. Until I can make some significant improvement in this specific area I am reluctant to progress to the next stage of the course and work with dreamsigns.

If one doesn't start with a good foundation, the building when built will fall sooner rather than later. If it is my ambition to have lucid dreams at will then to be able do this I am sure that I must first learn to be able to recall dreams at will (in sufficient detail).

I know in Stephen's book "EWLD" he suggests for improving willpower to try some of the exercises at the back of the book. Has anyone tried these exercises and achieved success?

As for the ND, I'm going to continue wearing it but leave it switched off for the next week so that I do not become desentisized to the lights.

Any ideas to help me here will be welcome.

Determined Dreamer Phil.

Phil,

Journaling immediately upon awakening, both in the morning and during the night have been a challenge I've been working on too. The things that have helped me so far are:

1. Have the dream journal, pen, and flashlight in easy reach from bed.
2. BEFORE going to sleep, put a dated entry with bedtime listed (Right there ready to get the dream when you write it down).
3. Also in my dream journal, I write an autosuggestion or two before bed like: "I will remember my dreams and write them down." If anyone else has more suggestions, it would be great because I think more consistent journaling upon awakening would be really helpful. Peace, Michael

Dear Phil and Michael,

Howdy fellow dreamseekers! I'm new to the Course and just venturing into dreamsigns exercises. This is the first time I've posted comments in The Forum.

I agree with what Phil wrote about having a solid foundation for the endeavor. Since I'm able to fall asleep almost any time, the main factor affecting my ability to recall dreams (as well as most other abilities!) is how well rested I am. When overly tired, most of my endeavors suffer due to fatigue. I'm organizing my time to keep my energy level consistently elevated. The more energy I have backing me, the more successful I am at most things, including dream recall.

I'll look forward to reading more about your experiences, and hope you'll share about your dreamsigns experiences. Thanks!

-Karen

Hi Karen ,

Welcome to the forum! Good luck with the course and I hope you will find much support from your fellow dreamers on this forum.

Thanks for your tip on being well rested. I'll put some emphasis into making sure I'm getting the required amount of sleep!

You said you can fall asleep almost anytime. What technique do you use to do that?

Michael... I use a laptop which I have sitting right next to me on the bedside cabinet. I leave it on, with the dream diary page open ready to type into. I must admit though I haven't thought of adding the time of going to sleep and writing an autosuggestion! The incentive of having the laptop right there doesn't necessarily motivate me to move from my sleeping position upon waking from a dream. I have a constant battle with a part of me that says please go back to sleep and the other part of me that says come on now you've got bits of a dream right there in your mind get them recorded! The former part usually wins! I often end up completely forgetting what the dream was about in the morning.

The lazy part of me tries to justify it by saying that if I make too much effort to record the dream, I will take too long recording it or awaken too much to get back to sleep quickly.

Phil.

Hi Phil,

I guess you and I have a very similar problem... Laziness :-). I was using a notepad and pencil but just the act of getting up and writing it down was causing me to forget most of it. It helped if I stayed still for a period of time and thought about the dream. When I did that portions of the dream that I had already forgotten came back to me! However, I still had problems either writing it down and forgetting stuff or simply going back to sleep.

For me I found the answer! Perhaps it can help you too. I went down to a local electonics store and picked up one of those recorders that records to memory chip instead of tape. When I wake up I stay still for a short period trying to remember all I can. Then I just dictate into the recorder. It seems that talking about it into the recorder helps remember details, doesn't take as long as writing it down and doesn't disrupt my position which for me can cause me to forget just about everything. After I dictate I simply go back to sleep and start all over. The next day I listen to the recording and write it in my dream diary I keep on my computer.

I sleep alone :-( so I don't have anyone listening to me while I dictate. This may be a problem if you keep your dreams from your "bed partner" but if you share anyway then it's not a big deal.

Hope this helps you or anyone else that has a problem recording thier dreams.

• Gene

Gene,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have thought of using the verbal recording method. When I return to England next in about 6 weeks time I will look around for something like that. I'm hundreds of miles from any decent civilisation at the moment. I do sleep alone while I'm away... well, my wife would certainly hope so! :-) but the cabin where I sleep has walls that are paper thin. I won't let that stop me from trying out the idea though.

I tend not to use my laptop straightaway unless I'm feeling energetic enough. I find it easier to write down in short sentences using abbreviations, trying not to worry too much about the order in which I recall it first.

My efforts have improved in the last couple of nights and so long as I'm improving I'm happy!

Phil

When trying to have a lucid experience i found it very useful to allow yourself to fall asleep while gently watching it happen. Gently because if you try too hard or concentrate too hard on trying to have one you wont be able to experience the shift in your state of mind that maybe required to get there. If you concentrate too intently youll mentally be too aware to get out but in contrast if you dont focus enough youll fall asleep. I think it takes a bit of experiencing both extremes (concentrating too intently and concentrating too flacidly) to find this gentle concentration in which you can experience the shift in awareness. If you find yourself laying in bed for hours concentrating till beads of sweat fall down your forehead but not getting any results, it may be safe to say that your overdoing it. If on the other hand your out like a light as soon as you hit the pillow it may be safe to say that you need a little nudge in the direction of focus. When you become familiar with both extremes you know what not to do and can find a middle ground between both extremes that allows you to keep your mind aware of the shift to lucid. So as a method to induce a lucid experience it may be worth investing in purposly making these two mistakes of focusing too much and too little, so that you can peel away at the contrasting extremes to the point in which you can watch it happen as a natural extension of your level of awareness.

Any comments/feedback is greatly apprecitated

I totally agree with you post. Finding the right balance is tricky. From all my attempts, I found that I don't always fall asleep with the same speed, it can go from one extreme (wakefulness) to the other (falling asleep too easily). I still haven't had an answer from this question yet from the other posts yet. When you experience the phase from just laying aware to the dream state, does the dream just quickly fade in, or does it come in slow where you would experience what I would call the void phase? (The point where you feel you conscious detach itself from your body and then you float or fall around until the dream kicks in.)

Hi Circle,

Have you considered that when your consciousness detachs itself from your body and you float or fall around, that your already dreaming.

Dreaming that your consciousness has detached itself and your floating or falling that is.

Rob

Hi Circle,

CircleA wrote: "When you experience the phase from just laying aware to the dream state, does the dream just quickly fade in, or does it come in slow where you would experience what I would call the void phase? "

A number of things happen heres the most common two.

1.I get very strong vibrations, hear a roaring jet engine sound and then feel another body split or eject or get up out of the my physical body in which i can elpore the dreamscape with.

2. i am already in a dream and become aware of it and then tell myself to "get up" in which i get the same sensation of number one only its already happening in some far away dreamplace.

With the first one i dont remember having a dream at all its more like i reach a level of relaxed awareness and these sensations just happen automatically.

With the second one i usually am going in and out of sleep, teetering on being awake and asleep until i fall into a dream raise the level of awareness and become aware of the dream. With this method im not too sure if the awareness of the dream happens on a conscious level, i kind of just go in and out of different levels of awareness until i fall into a dream and then wake up in it.

I find the first one in which the vibrations occur almost automattically the most interesting because that can happen in a matter of minutes from the time you lay down in bed. This might conflict with some of LeBerge's results, in particular the experiment in which he found that lucids occur during rem which happens 70-90 minutes from the onset of sleep. The vibration sensations are also intersting becuase the can become so powerful that they effect the physical body. There have been times when i have been brought back awake from the vibrational state because my whole body was physically shaking with the vibrations. Even while i was awake the vibration sensation stoped but there was an after effect which kept my body shaking until i "willed" it to stop.

Hi-- as you might well conclude, some people do have lucid dreams not long after falling asleep, and this has been demonstrated in the lab. It's just not the typical profile. I myself have had this happen in Stephen's lab, and he's had other subjects that exhibit this.

A couple of things about this: lucid dreams are indeed most often in classic REM sleep but not exclusively. And as you say, REM doesn't usually occur at or near sleep onset, but again, this is not hard and fast. Notably, with REM rebound effect one can enter REM much sooner than the normal sleep cycle profile.

Reverie

I know a number of people who would fit the profile of having lucids near the onset of sleep. Some of them are able to do it because they elicit some altered state of consciousness with thier will and intention. Perhaps this altered state of consciousness is one that is similar or is the REM stage.

Eventhough there are accounts in which people are standing or sitting in an upright position and are able to have lucids within a matter of minutes of getting into the standing or sitting position.I havnt tried this yet, it would be interesting to know if anyone here can do that. I would think having a lucid while standing or sitting upright wouldnt be possible because of sleep paralysis.

I have had lucid dreams right after falling asleep, usually when napping, but I find this is a rare occurrence. I usually have them just before awakening in the morning in my usual REM stage.

Blue Topaz

Is conceivable that subjects are experience spontaneous wakeing induced lucid dreams or wilds?

Im guessing anytime a lucid happens without trying to have one you could call it spontaneous. That happened a lot to me when i first started and i had to retreat from the topic all together to keep myself from getting interrupted from sleep by the vibrations, it got very annoying. I really dont know what, other than a sincere desire to have lucids, caused the spontaneous lucids to occur. As soon as i got my mind off the topic they stopped, so maybe it has something to do with some kind of unconscious momentum created by desire.

Hi Michael,

The vibration thing: I've experienced similar sensations after early morning awakenings when drifting back to sleep. I guess there intensity is due to being in the hypnagogic state, also they appear to be strongly related or driven by whatever I'm thinking about, any form of explosive physical activity for instance.

I suppose it could also be feasible that as your coming out of sleep paralysis your body may be experiencing an echo of your dreaming thoughts whilst its inbetween being in the dream state (temporarily paraliysed) and being fully awake?

In EWOLD there is a paragraph or two that addresses the correlation between desire for and frequency of lucid dreams, that you might find interesting.

Rob

When I was a youngster, and to a lesser extent a teenager, I used to have a vibration phenomenon, complete with "loud" audio hallucinations, somewhat frequently, in my case, in the evening finally falling asleep after a bout of insomnia. It wasn't until years later when I read about it that I realized it was something fairly normal that other people sometimes had, as well. It rarely happens anymore for me.

Thinking back, I don't find it had any direct corrolation with lucid dreams, although there might well have been some similar sleep-disrupted conditions under which the two types of events occurred separately for me. Even when I was fairly young I did have spontaneous lucid dreams sometimes, early in the sleep cycle. This still happens for me nowadays on occasion, while the vibration and sound illusions rarely do.

Reverie

So far i havnt experienced the vibrations in relation to some thought of explosive physical activity. When i get them it is upon laying down to go to sleep or in the morning after i have woken up and then have gone back to sleep. in both of those cases the vibes seem to come from being aware of an altered state of consciousness. in some cases there are no dream images or thoughts involved in reaching it, the vibes simply come from the level of awareness, sort of an indicator of the influence of the state of consciousness?

Michael:

... Or perhaps just a bunch of neurons (and maybe some sympathetic muscle cells?) suddenly left with nothing to do?

It's just a thought, and I know not a very glamorous one. But, sometimes vibrations are, well, just vibrations. Using them as a sign of impending dream activity could be handy, but you might be wary of assigning any higher value to the vibrations themselves.

Peter

Michael

I'm thinking that your experiences lay somwhere within the normal parameters of the hypnogogic state.

I.E. whilst your mind is in limbo between sleeping and waking.

Which I suppose is also not very glamorous.

But your experiences appear to be a blessing in a way as they give you a ready made indicator/door to the world of dreams.

Rob

Hello All,

I wanted to get some advice from some of you seasoned Lucid Dreamers. Currently I am an amateur. I have had 50 or so lucid dreams in my life. About half of which occurred while I was a child. I had an incredible knack for using the WILD technique before I knew what it was. Then my lucid dreams dried up in adolescence. When I was seventeen I had an OBE that, simple stated, scared the hell out of me. After that it was several more years before I had another LD. For the past five years or so I have been having 2-4 LDs per year and am only now starting to study the techniques that I can use to increase the occurrence rate. My question is this, how long did it take you to become proficient at lucid dreaming? Also, how fast did the occurrence rate increase (once a year to once a month to once week, etc)? I know this is a highly individualized question but I really appreciate your feedback.

Thomas

Hi, Thomas!

It IS an individualised question.

But a good reason for me to finally do what I intended and put together my scattered charts, squezze the statistics out of my Word diaries and my dreaming software and make up the (VERY BIG AND LONG DRUM ROLL)

LUCID DREAMING PROGRESS CHART - THIS LIFETIME ;)

1975 or so - first (and spontaneous) lucid dream ---> 1 in 33 years . . 1/1999 begin working with Stephen's methods (more or less systematic...) 4/1999 first intended lucid dream, first contact with LI forum 8/1999 second (intended) lucid dream (three in a row, in fact) another one end of August: 4 12/1999:1 ---> 5/ year . . The years 2000 and 2001 and part of 2003 I did work a lot on my LD skills. I exchanged tons of posts with LI forum members and read a lot on LD. Participated in the Dreaming and Awakening Retreat on Maui May 2001. I think one key to success for many dreamers is mutual enforcement in an active, motivated and empathic group like this. I really enjoyed learning lucid dreaming in this setting, enjoyed to see, how we supported each other and succeeded to bring light of lucidity not only into the night, but to our everyday life. . 4/ 2000: 2 5/2000: 2 6/2000: 2 8/2000: 3 9/2000:1 10/2000: 2 ----> 12/ year . . 1/2001: 3 3/2001:3 4/2001:1 5/2001:1 6/2001:2 7/2001: 6 8/2001: 1 9/2001: 3 10/2001: 1 11/2001: 2 12/2001: 2 ---> 25/ year . . 1-8/ 2002: 23 My lucid dreaming progress chart (see: A Course in Lucid Dreaming) stops here. In a way I felt, I could have them at will now, given the time to dedicate myself to reality checks and MILD exercise) Example: Could induce one LD for the mutual dreaming contest in ASD psiberdreaming conference 9/10 2002, within the limits of 24 hours (as far as I remember, these dreams are somehow hard to retrieve), using the MILD technique. 9/2002: 1 10/2002: 2 So at least: ---> 26 per year . . And then I focussed more on lucid living for some time and making dreams come true on the more material layer. (Purchasing a house, working on it, completing osteopathy courses, opening an alternative healing practice, all this until the end of 2003). Must say, that accomplishing the former seemingly impossible (being awake in my dreams) did free me of some hindering fears and doubts. So part of the reason why I made my life - dreams come true is that I learned lucid dreaming. So lucid living isn't just a phrase for me... . Forget about the score for some time (yes, some advice...), think more of quality, of what to do in LDs, of using them to explore the world and myself (yourself) . 3/2003: 3 in the frame of a dream project, 1 spontaneous, makes 4 7/2003: 2 (in preparation of an online LD project) 8/2003: 5 (during that project) 9/2003: 2 intended 1 spontaneous 12/2003: 1 intended (so far) ---> 13 per year so far under more or less hindering circumstances. But especially the August project made me again believe I can do it, if I only want. Group dreaming projects do very motivate me. And definite goals are very important for me.

This all sums up to a total of (must use a calculator now):

82 lucid dreams so far in this lifetime.

And it is still a boundless fun and awe and adventure and personal growth and whatever lies in the hundreds of LDs to come...

Another part of the work is done... Hope this answers your question, Thomas.

More light!

Yours Ralf (nicknamed ralucid elsewhere)

Hey, I made a mistake in 1999! I had six!!!

Don't mess with a lucid... Don't miss a lucid!

That makes 83.

The number of LDs isn't totally unimportant, I think. Mind and body have to learn, how it feels, and they seem to learn through repetition.

Thomas:

I regrettably never kept the same records as Ralph (just a few dozen nearly unreadable journals), so I won't be much help with a timeline. But I would like to amplify what Ralf said: "In a way I felt, I could have them at will now, given the time to dedicate myself to reality checks and MILD exercise)."

In a sense, we're all pretty much amateurs in this sport of lucid dreaming, and, since we're also all physically designed to NOT have them, we have to maintain excellent mental conditioning to continue having them. Even the best LD'ers have dry spells - not because the dreams don't "come," but because the dreamer doesn't keep up his mindset. So, as Ralph said, once you fully absorb the techniques that help you become lucid, you can pretty much have lucid dreams whenever you're truly willing to conjure them.

So, I would say the amount of time needed to become proficient at LD'ing is up to the dreamer (a very interested dreamer like Ralf, for instance, mastered the sport in less than two years), but after that the frequency is dependent upon the desire of the dreamer.

Peter

Thank you Peter and Ralph for replying to my questions. I am only now reading one of Stephen's book and putting myself on a course to becoming skilled in the Art. I really appreciate your encouraging words. Ralph seeing your stats help me keep things in perspective. A few weeks ago I had a LD with my highest level of awareness yet (I posted in the misc dreams sections if your interested). I think part of me expected that once this occurs it would be easy to repeat. Right now I am concentrating on the basics: dream recall and building a journal. Once again thank you for your input.

Thomas

Hello, I am wandering if anyone out there uses techniques other than "mild" and "wild". In particular has anyone tried any Qigong techniques to aid them?. I am curious about any/all techniques that people have successfully used.

Thanks, Thomas

Ok, first of all let me introduce myself in short. My name is Nenad Kerkez. I've been a dreamer since the age of 4. 3 NLD per night average, 5-10 LD average per month.. NLD categorized (like movies), all fully detailed be it Action, Music, Fantasy, Horror..etc...Every NLD has a name and a genre respectively.. Dream rankings also include season rankings(like movies). For example Dream season 2002/2003 has the first 20 dreams in descending order. 1st placed was action dream called: NEW EXCURSION-NEVERENDING BRAVERY,2nd: DEEP BLUE 2( drama) 3rd: THE SECOND APOCALYPSE-UNDER SIEGE (Fantasy) 4th:TRACE THE KING 2-SO CLOSE, SO FAR AWAY (music) 5th: LIVING DEAD (horror)....etc. Dream season starts on every 1st of september and lasts till 1st of July. When the season isover I make a list of FIRST 20 DREAMS in that season. My first season was 1987/88...Thats a little background of my NLDs. As for LD, I can tell you some statistics: 5-10 LD per month (DILDs) and around 5 WILDs per month with very noisy and vibrating sensations. Complete Body Paralyse, but entering a dream with total awareness of being awake. Spinning and Rubbing techniques have prolonged LD with almost 100% of success. Also, I must state I can sense pain on my dream body(when inflicted), flying is very common in NLD., more common then in LD.(I don't fly so often in LD). As for WILDs, I always need to stabilize picture and dreamscape which is shaking and quaking very intensively upon entering....I can remember my dreams very well, and I DON'T need to write it instantly upon awaking. I have developed other technique for remembering, I would describe it later if You like. The point is to transfer a dream from subconscious state to consciousness without moving your body or opening your eyes. Then you can sleep and dream again without being afraid of losing it upon awakening. I have been practising this since I was 10. Lucid Dreams are kept in the book called Lucidiary.

Thomas first of all you need to improve your skill of remembering your dreams. That skill is supposed to be excellent. Then you should try to keep your dream journal. READ A LOT. Read and re-read your dream journal. Tell them to your friends. So far I have described more then 500 NL DREAMS in my Journals starting from season 1987/88. I can memorize almost everything I dreamt of, every night. DON'T TRY TO FIND A SECRET CLUE IN A DREAM>DON'T BELIEVE IN DREAM INTERPRETATIONS. I never wanted to know what means if I dreamt of "loosing my teeth". Simply I don't believe in dream interpretation . I perceive dreams in another way. You must relieve yourself from stress. Avoid stressful situations especially when you go to sleep. Try not to eat strong, fat food after 10 o'clock PM(22).

1st MOST IMPORTANT STEP.EXCELLENT SKILL IN REMEMBERING YOUR DREAMS 2nd OPEN YOUR DREAM JOURNAL AND WRITE MOVIE- LIKE NLD. GIVE THEM A NAME, CLASSIFY THEM BY GENRE. 3rd READ AND RE-READ YOUR JOURNAL. 4th SPEAK ABOUT YOUR DREAMS(BUT NOT TO ANYONE) 5th AVOID STRESS 6th THINK ABOUT DREAMS BEFORE YOU GET TO BED AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES. 7th AVOID FAT FOOD.

Some people are gifted more or less, but whether you are gifted or not, you need to practise, as every talent does. I made a reply post OPEN CONVERSATION>MIND LIMITATIONS...READ AND FIND ABOUT "DUNDEE VALLEY"

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for your recent posts to several topics. In response to your question regarding techniques, while a variety of methods for inducing lucid dreams have been explored over the years, TLI's documented research shows that MILD, especially when combined with the Napping Technique, is an extremely effective approach. Although I've heard of Qigong, I'm not familiar enough with it to know how it might relate, so please describe in more detail.

The practice of meditation can certainly help train one's mind to maintain focus, which would be especially beneficial when it comes to WILDs. Speaking of which, and to clarify the terms:

MILD (Mnemonic Induction of Lucid Dreams) is a Technique. WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream) describes a Type of lucid dream.

WILD about MILD! Keelin

I'd have to take issue with Keelin there. Both methods are a form of dream induction. Mnemomic induction is simply a way of reminding yourself to remember that you are dreaming within the dream state. The WILD technique is a method of creating a lucid dream by remaining conscious as you enter the dream state. These are both induction techniques.

Hi Nick,

I sense the discrepancy lies in the "I"s -- and the difference in meaning between initiated and induced. As I understand it, WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream) and DILD (Dream Initiated Lucid Dream) both describe the circumstances in which lucidity begins (i.e., when/where it is initiated). On the other hand, MILD (Mnemonic Induction of Lucid Dreams) is a technique or method, a way to bring about or cause lucidity to occur.

Perhaps this passage from Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming (chapter 4: Falling Asleep Consciously), in which these acronyms are used to describe types of dreams, will clairfy:

"Experiences in which people consciously enter dreaming sleep are referred to as wake-initiated lucid dreams (WILDs), in contrast to dream-initiated lucid dreams (DILDs), in which people become lucid after having fallen asleep unconsciously. The two kinds of lucid dreams differ in a number of ways. WILDs always happen in association with brief awakenings (sometimes only one or two seconds long) from and immediate return to REM sleep. The sleeper has a subjective impression of having been awake. This is not true for DILDs. Although both kinds of lucid dreams are more likely to occur later in the night, the proportion of WILDs also increases with time of night. In other words, WILDs are most likely to occur in the late morning hours or in afternoon naps."

The chapter goes on to describe a variety of techniques for achieving WILDs including: Hypnagogic Imagery, Power of Visualization (White/Black Dot), Dream Lotus and Flame, Counting, Twin Bodies, One Body, and No Body.

Hope this helped to elucidate, ;) Keelin

I rarely have had WILDS any time except after first awakening in the morning and deciding to go back to sleep for a while, like when really tired.

Paul

House for sale--Lavalur lamps

Hi Paul!

Great to see you on the Forum again -- Welcome back! I also see the house is still for sale (if anyone finds this comment odd, it's just a bit of on-going humor from Dreaming and Awakening, May '03).

The question is: With your early morning WILDs, have you used any specific induction methods?

Warm aloha! Keelin

House for Sale -- Outdoor Lavatory