Spinning is a dominant component of my lucid dreams so far. I tried an experiment with interesting results.

As my dream recall is improving I often find myself thinking and reflecting about things remembered from my dreams. In the morning, I think, "Was I awake or dreaming then?" I could get out of bed I suppose or look at a digital clock to see if I'm dreaming, but I thought of another way.

I try to spin. If I am in the black dream void I feel the thumping in my head: if I'm in the awake black void I cannot generate the thumping.

When I go to sleep, I say to myself, the next time I seem to be awake I'll try to spin.

First night: Once I felt some very weak thumping but I thought I was awake, counter to the logic above, perhaps I was dreaming?

Second night: I "woke" up spinning, I continued to spin and tried to make a scene appear. Eventually I saw a woman before me, I looked at her for a few seconds, and then when I decided to try to speak to her I awoke.

Third night: No spinning

Have not tried again because I don't want to spoil it and I'm focusing instead on counting to sleep...cannot do too many things at once.

I guess that my suggestion is to try to use spinning as a state test from the black void!

????

Owen

Hi, Joy!

I'm really glad my idea was useful to you. Actually, you took it to a level that I didn't even know about. I was simply using the limited version of the lotus-flame practice I read about in the S. LeBerge book. In the same vein, your use of the search engine idea worked for me because of the way you used and described it. Sometimes an idea is not necessarily new, but someone may use it in a way that catches another's imagination, and it might as well be new. Or, of course, we might not have learned of the idea at all. Thanks for introducing it, and the mention of the book. Anyway, I was intrigued by your advice re left-handed writing. Do you feel that practicing thinking with the right brain would increase lucidity? That makes sense, since I know it increases creativity. Also, the part about looking at the stars ' I will do that, probably tonight. But if you have time, could you expound on the value of this in promoting lucidity? You seem as if you spend a lot of time being with the outdoors, and I'm gathering that this helps. This is something I always enjoyed too, but I seem not to do it as much anymore. Anyway, if you could expound on what you get out of the outdoors thing, in terms of lucidity, I would appreciate it. I'm sure you don't have much time; I know I don't. But I have the 4-day Thanksgiving holiday, and it's wonderful! We have a state park right up the road from me that, people always agree, whether they are into dreams or not, is very "dream-like" in it's scenery. This is lucky for me, and I think I'll go there and just "be,' for a while. Usually, I go there to paint. Yesterday I walked to this beautiful marsh and sat there watching all these water birds fishing. An egret was stalking around in the golden sun spangles on the water, and a pelican and a hawk flew by. But I couldn't get into it and get serene. I did practice trying to transform things, and asking the birds if I was dreaming as they flew by, but the main thing was to get serene, and it just didn't happen. Maybe because I was thinking how I had other things I had to do. Anyway, I'm posting this here because I'm looking for advice on inducing lucidity based on the things I just brought up. I'd like to dream about wonderful scenery, real or imaginary, and I'm looking for a mental connection between being with the real outdoors and lucid dreaming. By the way, I also dreamed, although not lucidly, about sliding down a hill, and the fun of it. Since I was indoors, this could have been a cue. Oh well. Thanks, Kate

When I wrote "I like the Tibetan techniques but really don't know which of my actions to attribute LDs to. Work on a computer, do a lot of hiking, eat a lot of chocolate, sleep out in the mountains, try to write left-handed, look up at the stars!" - I really meant it when I said I don't know; I was just randomly listing things I do! I could have also said, "Let stuff pile up on your desk; wear colorful clothes and comfortable shoes; floss your teeth almost every day but not if you're too sleepy...." But actually, with some of the things I did mention, I've at least wondered if they might have some value in promoting lucidity.

For time outdoors, I defer to the Tibetan guys who advocate visualizing a spacious landscape - spending time in one can't hurt; it also encourages me to pay attention, be in the present, use perceptual vs. conceptual mental processes and look at everything as if it were a dream. I've had nights of multiple lucid dreams when sleeping outdoors; I think it might relate at least in part to maintaining a state of vigilance. Looking up at the stars, I try to stretch my mind toward a sense of the actual perspectives involved - definitely an exercise in spacious awareness!

The idea that cultivating ambidexterity might promote lucidity is a wild idea I've had, which is rooted in notions of the value of increasing right-brain activity, forging links between the activities of the hemispheres, and just sort of scrambling old habits and extending oneself.

As for eating chocolate, the more reasons the better....

Joy

Rudolf Steiner advocated cultivating ambidexterity in order to strengthen memory. I have long suspected that a strong memory is consistent with the ability to lucid dream.

Hi, this is my first post. What you wrote, Joy, about cultivating lefthandedness caught my eye, because last year I had to do that after shoulder surgery on my right/dominant arm. For about six months I worked (labwork), keyboarded, moused, cooked, drew, opened doors, etc. all with my left hand. I don't think it improved my waking memory, which is lousy, lucidity, which is rare, or dream recall, which has always been good at about two dreams/night. What I did notice improving were my drawings. I was drawing portraits, and when I started drawing with my left hand the drawings were more expressive. Unfortunately, although my right arm improved and is usable again, I now have an injury on a left finger (my job is high risk for RSI's), so have to lay off the left handed drawing. By the way, I've also been reading several books on Tibetan dream yoga, and I took a dream yoga workshop at the Nyingma institute. The methods of each are slightly different, as to where, what and how to visualise. I'm not keen on visualizations, but if anyone can attest to a method that really helps lucidity, I'll give it a try. Naomi

Welcome, Naomi, to this forum where everyone seems to be intelligent, creative, multitalented and goodhearted. I'm pretty new around here myself. Have you read "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"? - if I remember right, the author advocates improving one's drawings by tappng into right-brain capabilities with all manner of methods but never does suggest drawing left-handed - but maybe I remember wrong (my own memory being rather patchy sometimes!).

Joy

Hi Joy, I like that book and did the exercises in it years ago, and found it helped my drawing skills. Recently I got the 1999 edition of the book, which has a section on handedness and drawing. Betty Edwards doesn't believe in switching hands, because she thinks that drawing ability is more a matter of seeing, rather than a manual skill. She claims that the "small percentage" of people who find they draw better by switching to the left hand are really ambidextrous or left handers who had been previously pressured to change. I don't agree with her since I was always strongly right handed. Maybe using the non-dominant left hand leads to new neural connections (in the right brain) which may lead to novel results, ie increased creativity. Naomi

Hi, Naomi - I think your speculation sounds very plausible and I bet if Betty Edwards were to learn a little bit more about cognitive and behavioral neurobiology, she would agree. Which is not to claim any great knowledge of it myself - just an interest. Maybe someone knowledgeable will read this and comment on the effects of hand-switching on creativity and lucidity.

As for Tibetan dream yoga visualizations - I like the fact that the different methods vary, and that the best teachers offer several variations and invite you to use whichever ones appeal to and work for you and ignore the rest. Acting on that advice I've tried a few and they all seem to work, sometimes with startling efficacy, though it's hard to tell to what extent the results are attributable to other factors.

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche says something to the effect that you can dispense with a lot of the traditional trappings if you're not comfortable with them, but that there is value in connecting with an ancient tradition. I would tend to think that the value is mostly rooted in one's expectations, but for having had the experience of lucid-dreaming an ancient Tibetan legend the day before I read it - which makes the idea of being connected to a tradition take on a different, very interesting dimension!

It looks like you've learned a lot more about it than I have - I've just read 2 books and listened to 2 tapes.

Take good care of your artistic hands!

Joy

Hi! "...where everyone seems to be intelligent, creative, multitalented and goodhearted." I'll be happy to take that on as including me - thanks! There's a book that's probably easy to get called "The Artist's Way" by Julie Cameron with Mark Bryan. The introduction includes this dialogue: "...I teach creativity workshops." "How can you teach creativity" "I can't. I teach people to let themselves be creative." "Oh, you mean we're all creative?" "Yes." And that's what the book is about. To quote the back of the book, it "...links creativity to spirituality by showing in nondenominational terms how to tap into the higher power that connects human creativity with the creative energies of the universe..." Someone lent it to my husband and I'm now going to read the whole thing. And maybe even do the exercises, although I'm bad about things like that. Too much like homework! There's a lot about stimulating the right brain, which gets sadly underused. I also orderd a book suggested by Adastra about lucid dreaming, and one suggested by Keelin about learning to interpret your own dreams in terms of what things mean to you personally. Today I'm going to order a book by Rinpoche if I can. One of Adastra's suggestions was out of print. In the meantime I bought a Carlos Castenada book, which turned out to be not what I expected, and a book about the Celtic roots of the Halloween holiday. (I figured cross-cultural was a good thing to stimulate things in my brain.) I'm hoping the reading will help me increase lucidity. Right now I seem to be dependent on the "close-to-waking" state at the end of the night for any lucidity. I seem to be very closed to whatever is going on in my mind through the heart of the night. My dream recall is not what it used to be. It seems as if the older I get, the worse it is. As a child, I remembered all my dreams, I think. But all this reading and chatting and trying is surely helping us all. Success to us all, Kate

Hi Joy, Yes, I'm reading a lot on lucid dreaming and Tibetan yoga, but I'm not doing the actual exercises. That's probably why I rarely have lucid dreams. I just read myself to sleep each night instead of doing the visualizations. I probably should change that habit, but it's hard. I just ordered a Novadreamer, so maybe that will inspire some changes. By the way, what visualizations do you like that work for you? Hi Kate, Hmm, do I sense someone else out there obsessed with reading all the books but not liking to do the actual "homework"? Maybe we should make up a reading list. I just finished "Sleeping, Dreaming and Dying" by the Dalai Lama, and recommend it for its dialogues comparing Tibetan and Western ideas. Which lucid dream book did you order, and which Rinpoche? I got "The Artist's Way" from the library a few years ago. I got as far as reading about her cardinal rule, which you have to do first thing every morning. If I remember correctly, you must fill 3 sheets of college-lined notebook paper with whatever writing comes into your head without stopping. I figured it wasn't for me, since I just manage to scribble down my dreams and do a bit of yoga in the morning, and don't want any more chores. Naomi

Hi - Yeah, although I like a lot of her ideas, Julia Cameron in her sequel to "The Artist's Way" is even more caught up in notions of what you "must" do. For instance, in the first book she advocates doing some form of outdoor physical movement every day, be it walking, running, swimming, riding; by the second book, you "must" walk for a certain amount of time every day and it "must" be walking - no substitutions. I think it's a real setback when someone starts promulgating the notion that what works for them is what will work for everyone. And again, I'm very impressed by these Buddhists who have been working on an empirical science of consciousess for centuries and say over and over, Do what works for you! If this doesn't work, try something else! They say the best teachers will identify what may be most effective for an individual student at a given stage of progress. Wouldn't it be a wonderful luxury to have guidance like that?

At some point in "Artist's Way," in one of her less pedantic moments, Cameron makes this suggestion in reference to her exercises which I think might be a good one to generalize: If you don't have time to try them all, try some of the ones that appeal to you the most AND some of the ones that appeal to you the least - the latter possibly representing some resistance that will benefit you to break through.

Visualizations I like from Tenzin Wangyal Rimpoche's book include those involving the Tibetan "A" and Salgye Du Dalma, and one with a blue light that spreads and gradually engulfs everything. I also like the "nine purifications" breathing. I can't really say specifically what works for me in terms of inducing lucid dreams. Everything's in a bigger context and nothing ever gives the same result twice. Always an adventure....

Joy

P.S. to Kate, yes, you are among those I specifically had in mind in forming that description!

Joy - thanks again! I'm certainly enjoying the people on the forum, and have appreciated your friendliness and contributions very much. Naomi - Welcome, from a fellow newcomer. As to the books, interested, yes. Obsessed, no. Now I'm not sure about the artist's way, after what you and Joy said about it being kind of demanding. I guess I'll "take what I like and leave the rest." The idea about doing the excercises you don't want to do in order to break through a resistance I like. Mostly I'm lazy when it comes to exercises, but there's quite a lot of resistance to a lot of things in me, too. I can't remember the names of the books I ordered, but when they come in I'll post it. I didn't order the Rinpoche book yet - did other things. Which would you suggest? I'll try to get the Sleeping Dreaming and Dying book, also. I am becoming friends with someone who teaches yoga, and it seems as it I'm getting pulled in that direction - I may start to learn some. I just wish I had more time for all this stuff! We all seem to be in the same situation when it comes to time. That's one western concept I'd love to get away from, as a matter of fact. Sweet dreams, Kate

Naomi -

I found the paper w/ books I ordered. Conscious Dreaming Dreamgates by Robert Moss, and Let Your Body Interpret your Dreams by Eugene Gendlin. Wanted also Stop Sleeping Through Your Dreams by Charles Mcphee, but it's out of print. The clerk told me I might be able to get it off thier website, though, so I'll check that out at some point - it sounds really good. Also, I got lucid this am! No time to post it right now, though. Kate

Joy and Kate, I liked what you said about doing something that you have resistance to. I like doing exercises which involve body movement, such as yoga, tai chi, dance, etc., but I have a long-standing resistance to doing non-moving exercises. Anyway, I decided to "break through" the resistance and have been doing some of the meditation and breathing exercises in "the Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" (by Tenzyin Wangyal Rinpoche, Kate, it's a good book) for the last few days and hope to break some old habits. I'm sorry if I projected my obsession onto you, Kate. In future I will try to take full responsibility for my strange reading habits ;-) Anyway, have you seen the movie "Waking Life"? I really liked it. It dealt with many of the issues of consciousness and lucidity I've been reading about in this forum, and it was visually nice too. I got one of Robert Moss's books from the library some time ago, at least I think it was this author. I was sceptical of much of what he claimed about his methods, though. I tend to go with things that are proven: either scientifically, like Stephen LaBerge, or through the test of time, like Tibetan Yoga. Sweet dreams, naomi

naomi - You didn't project anything on to me - I was just being accurate when I said interested, yes, obssessed, no. When people write, with not oral inflection, the attitude can be misconstrued. I liked what you wrote, and I think a reading list is a good idea. I'm finding I go through fiction a lot faster than the non-fiction, but I'm glad I started opening myself up to new reading matter. Especially if it will help with my ld abilities. I don't know exactly what it is, and I guess I don't care at all, but when I have an ld I get happy. Right now I'm reading Carlos Castenada a Separate Reality. One thing I like about it is when don Jaun explains that Carlos can't "see" if he has any preconceived thoughts about how things are. That made sense to me. You must have quite a library where you live! They seem to have all kinds of esoteric books - not just the usual. I'd like to say more in my usual garrulous way, but I have a cold and it's knocking me out. I haven't seen Waking Life, but it sounds worth catching. Sweet dreams also, kate

Hi Kate, I read the Castaneda books a long time ago and liked them a lot, and I think that's how I first got interested in ld. I think I tried his method of focusing on my hands and that helped with lucidity, but I don't remember exactly how, it was so long ago. But Stephen LaBerge doesn't seem to think much of him. Anyway, I live in Berkeley, and they do have some good books in the library, and also in neighboring Oakland (I got Namhai Norbu's Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light from there. I have to severely restrict my fiction reading or else I get no sleep. (I have no control) Hope your cold gets better. Naomi

Hi, Naomi.

I'm curious how the Castenada books got you interested in ld'ing, and how you first were able to ld. Most people who ld seem to have had them on their own off and on, or even frequently, and then got interested in greater control - better frequency, what happens in the dreams, etc. The next Castenada book I'm going to get is the one about dreaming. The other books I ordered just came in last night - I'll order the Rinpoche when I get them. As much as I like getting information, I don't really enjoy reading non-fiction, the way I do fiction. But the results are worth it. It's almost as if my fiction reading is a withdrawl from life, whereas the information gathering and the way new ideas expand my perceptions, encourages me to really experience my environment. I know there's some kind of healthy blend between exploring the waking world and exploring the dreaming world. S Leberge's advice about practicing awareness in the waking world is an example of how pursuing ld'ing increases our appreciation of what's in the waking world. Berkeley. That explains a lot. I suppose what a town's libraries has says something about the inhabitants. Sometimes going to the library, for me, is like exploring an ld. I recall a library in Renton, Wa, that we got to by crossing a foot bridge over a river, and I could always see fish in it. (The river, not the library.) I used to have that control problem you mentioned with fiction, but the lure of sleep is greater for me now. Yes, Joy's point about pursuing the things you resist is good for me. My resistance tends to come from a place of immaturity, and going with it tends to limit me. Sweetly lucid dreams to all, Kate

Hi Kate, Idon't remember exactly how or which books, just that Castaneda talked about looking at your hands in order to attain lucidity and I tried it and it worked. I also read LaBerge's book around that time (mid 80's) and that really got me fascinated. I had some lucid dreams then. The first one was amazing, but after that I got kind of stuck; I'd get lucid and then not know what to do with this incredible power. So I stopped having them, until I got reinterested in dreams, lucidity, and Tibetan Buddhism this summer. I'm still not sure of what to do when I get lucid. I'm not a very good flyer. The books have a lot of suggestions, but in the dream I can't think of anything I want to do. Maybe this will improve. By the way, "Rinpoche" is a person's title, so there are quite a few Tibetans with "Rinpoche" after their name. About immaturity, I think an interest in dreams shows a desire for growth, which is a process of moving towards maturity. As the saying goes: You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever ;-) I count myself among the forever immature ones. Naomi PS Joy, I've been doing the "9 purifications breathing", but as far as the meditations on the "A", he recommends that you tape the letter onto a stick at eye level. I haven't figured out how to do that yet, what with getting the stick to stay up. Maybe I'll just tape it to the back of a chair. Naomi

Hi, Naomi. Don't waste your impressive ability! Maybe you should go to a library or old-fashioned bookshop in a lucid dream. Maybe just let the dream take you around, show you some bizarre books or literary characters, or a book of your own you didn't realize you'd written. I prize what's child-like in myself, which may be what you are talking about - I'm not sure. But I think my growth has been hampered by not losing some of the things a child grows out of naturally as it matures. My favorite part of dreams is to visit another world, whether that helps me to grow or not. LUckily, the two seem to go together. Thanks for the tip about Rinpoche. Now I can order a book by a real person, instead of just someonce called "Mr." I'll get the book referenced by Owen on a post. Looking forward to a lucid dream posting by you, Kate

Hi, Kate and Naomi! Kate, a book that I recommend highly is "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Naomi, I forgot about that A-on-a-stick bit in that book when I mentioned liking his "A" visualizations - I don't at all like the idea of staring at anything unblinkingly (maybe I should try it because I have resistance to it, eh?). What I had in mind was what he describes in part 3 chapter 5 (p.104-106).

I really hesitate to say anything that sounds as if I'm recommending some practice out-of-context, as a total neophyte. All I can say is that this is one of the practices that appeals to me.

Castaneda describes several different lucid dreaming practices in different books, interesting but the motives don't appeal to me personally, especially when the ultimate goal turns out to involve selling your soul to the "inorganic beings" in exchange for personal power.... I do very much like the Buddhist idea that my practice can benefit "all sentient beings" even though I don't quite understand what they mean by that.

The other night I'd been wondering yet again about what's included in "sentient" when I dreamed I squeezed three mango women to see if they were ripe. They were nothing but big motile mangos the size and shape of plump women, sentient but not very bright; they just thought I was giving them a hug. Each was ripe and so I sent them off to be killed. When they were brought back I would peel off their rubbery greenish skin and slice their juicy orange flesh. But as I stood with the knife in my hand I remembered that one of them was still unripe when some of her relatives were sliced. Would she remember? And if she did, what if she escaped and came after me? This developed into a fairly elaborate little nightmare with running and hiding from increasingly threatening antagonists until I decided all this fear was self-fulfilling and I simply disarmed myself and walked away - and THEN became lucid!

Joy to all

Hi kate and Joy, I love that image of the mango woman with the juicy orange flesh. That reminds me of doubts I've had about Buddhism, including what exactly is included in the 'sentient beings' category. Plants obviously sense some things, like light and gravity, send each other chemical signals, and some claim that they respond to music and hostile or friendly energy; and what about microorganisms, all those bacteria, viruses, prions, intracellular organelles like mitochondria, etc. Where do you draw the line? I also can't accept the concepts of karma and reincarnation, which don't seem logical at all to me. But I like other aspects of Buddhism, especially the Tibetan Dream Yoga. A couple of months ago I went to a Dream Yoga Workshop at the Nyingma Institue, which is a Tibetan Buddhist center in Berkeley. The visualizations we did were similar to the ones you mentioned from book, Joy, except that we chanted the 'Ah', then visualized a lotus in the throat with a flame in its center. I think all or most of the other people in the workshop were students at the Institute, and the teacher emphasised that these techniques were for the development of one's (Buddhist) practice rather than for the sake of having interesting lucid dream experiences. I came away feeling a bit guilty. Joy, I just wanted to know your experiences with the various visualizations, rather than asking for testimonials. For me, if they're too complicated, I can't sleep. Probably that'll improve with practice, but for now, the A one you mentioned in the book is rather complicated, because he also says to visualize RA, LA, SHA, and SA on the different petals of the lotus. I guess I could leave those out till I get better at it. I was curious if you use a Tibetan or English A. Kate, I think I know what you mean about wanting to keep the 'child-like' aspects of yourself while discarding what I think of as the 'childish' . My more recent, infrequent lucid dreams have been very short and disappointing. I feel like I'm putting everything on hold till I get some new techniques under my belt. The first lucid dream i had, years ago, was the most amazing one. This horrible creepy doctor was chasing me up some stairs, when I realized I was dreaming and decided to go back downstairs and confront him. i held onto the bannister to keep from waking up. When i got to where he was at the bottom of the stairs, i demanded that he tell me who he was, but he just laughed at me. I said that since it was my dream, he would have to tell me who he was at the count of 3. I started counting, and he tried to force me to let go of the railing so that I'd wake up before I got to 3. I managed to fight him off with one hand using Tai Chi moves, though, while holding on with the other hand. At that point I felt getting the answer was the most important thing in the world, and when I finally got to 3 and said, "OK, now who are you?" he looked right into my eyes, and his eyes were laughing as he said, "You." I woke up with the most incredible feeling of amazement and awe. Lucidity to all, Naomi

Hi, Joy and Naomi.

Thanks for sharing those dreams, and how they affected you. Pretty fascinating stuff! Interestingly, both dreams featured a conquering of fear that led to excellent results. A new tip, the idea of doing a psychologically healthy thing as a response to a problem in a nonlucid dream and thus gaining lucidity. Yes, the childlike/childish thing is what I meant. Lucidity and serenity, Kate

Hi, Dr. Naomi, I like the Tibetan "A" and maybe it's in his tapes that he recommends (especially if you're having trouble getting to sleep) skipping the complicated elaborations and just visualizing it very softly glowing and letting yourself become it - that way it doesn't keep you awake!

More great dreams,

Joy

P.S. I have friends of friends who teach Buddhism and the moment I meet one of them I'm going to ask for their definition of "sentient being." Meanwhile, a clue that it may be very inclusive: I was delighted to read recently that traditional Tibetan medicine attributes some illnesses to tiny sentient beings that live within the body and are too small to see!

Joy

Hi, Joy. Have you ever read the Madeline L'engle books? There's one, I forget which, but I could check, where there's a plot about mitochondria not wanting to take root the way they're supposed to, because they want more freedom. I used to read her books to my son, and your last post made me think of that particular story. Lost in admiration of your ld abilities, Kate

Hi - I did read a couple of those - to myself, before I ever had a son! How old is yours now? Mine's 19, in college, and seeing him little is a great dream cue. In fact, seeing him at ALL is a great dream cue!

Please don't get "lost in admiration," I'll get embarrassed and hide! "Found in inspiration" will keep me posting - I like sharing inspiration and ideas with you-all. For the last week or two I've had a lucid dream about every other night but they've been short (though euphoric) and I haven't been able to do much in them. Last night I was lucid all night and want to credit all you forum people for inspiration in this part:

[After a false awakening] I went through a west-facing door that led outside, and finding myself in the lattice-walled entry to a beautiful sun-dappled, flower-filled garden, I thought, "Wow! I'm still dreaming!"

Just ahead of me stood a tall, very slender, elfin-looking woman with reddish-gold hair in a pixie haircut, gazing upward at the flowers that climbed the latticework. I remembered that forum participants have often mentioned asking dream people for advice, so I approached her cautiously - not wanting to wake myself up - and asked in a hushed voice, "Can you tell me how to stay dreaming?"

She looked at me with twinkling eyes, put a finger to her lips and tiptoed around a corner of the latticework, beckoning me to follow. She pointed and whispered: "See that orange marigold? Would you call that color a 'sulfur orange,' or a 'Physa orange'?"

The flower was bright yellow-orange, vividly detailed. It wasn't a sulfur yellow. Physa - I recognized that as a term I'd learned in my work as a wildlife biologist, but often had trouble remembering when I needed it. I thought hard. It was the genus of something" Then I smiled at the elfin-woman and said softly, "You're trying to trick me! 'Physa' is a snail! So 'sulfur orange' would be closer."

She smiled broadly, sparkling eyes looking sidelong at me. "Show me more," I whispered. She beckoned again and went around another corner...

...and it went on like that - she never gave me any advice but pointed out things to observe and think about, which I continued to do through my best night of lucidity in a long time.

Joyfully, Joy

Hi, Joy. I read A Wrinkle in Time long before I had my son, as a matter of fact. He's going to be 16 in March. Sorry, but I can't help but be impressed by your frequncy and fascinating dreams. Barbara just posted an imaginative one, too. I can't help but compare my fairly pedantic dreams to some others and wonder what it says about me. But that's okay, really. I enjoy my lucid dreaming very much and that's all that matters for now. Don't hide! I very much enjoy reading the other forum members'dreams. All of it opens up my mind just a little bit more. Happy dreams, Kate

Hi Kate and Joy, My son just turned 20. Is it our children growing up that frees us to turn to our dreams and write in this forum? Your dreams are really incredible, Joy. I just got my Novadreamer today. I'm very excited about trying it tonight. Each of the last few nights I've had at least one dream, (nonlucid), with something sparkly in it. Maybe it was anticipatory dreaming. Anyway, it inspired me to buy some irridescent oil pastels and draw at least one dream scene/night. I'm a molecular biologist, so I guess I tend to think about the small things. There's a theory that a long time ago mitochondria and chloroplasts used to be free-living creatures before they got incorporated and became parts of nucleated cells. They still have their own DNA. Anyway, do ask your Buddhist-teacher friends, Joy, about what's 'sentient', and how the plants and creatures at the lower end of the spectrum can work their way up, karmically. I mean, does an amoeba have to be compassionate before it can reincarnate into something higher. Also I wonder if Buddhists can take antibiotics or get vaccinated, since this would involve the deaths of millions of microorganisms. A while ago someone (Barbara?) posted about a website devoted to artwork about dreams. Could someone post it again. Thanks. Lovely lucid dreams to all, Naomi

Hi everybody!

I don't post regulary but read all the messages I can.

Regarding the following phrase from Naomi's last message: "..... spectrum can work their way up, karmically." I would like to comment that: without the observer's MEMORY, there's NO CAUSE-EFFECT, there's NO KARMA!

When we see even little tiny "things" (whatever they are, cells, powder, etc) MOVING, we are using our MEMORY (short term one) to "build" the relationship between one observation and the other: we build the "movement" inside our minds! There's no movement "outside" our minds, there's no Karma without our minds, our "memory" (whatever memory be).

So, it appears there are no Karma, no cause-effect, no "reincarnation" independent the observers mind!

Our dreams, how fantastic they are or not, also depends on our memory to be somehow perceived and remembered.

This can free us from the concepts that put our minds in jail, regarding our dreams, lucid or not.

sorry for bothering

regards

mario

Hi, all you lucids!

I'm very glad about the vivid discussion and the wonderful dreams, you posted. Joy, I hope I remember your elfish way to prolong next time, I'm lucid. Naomi, I'm very surprised to find another scientist here. No, not really surprised. I think, this is due to the scientific approach of LI / LaBerge. It is over and over good to see, that ("hard") scientists care for dreams or even lucid dreaming. Mario, thanks for the word on karma and memory. The "mnemonic" task in MILD may go deeper, than I expected :-) Reincarnation is relative to the dualistic mind, pure awareness never dies, is that what you want to say? Keep on bothering us. I've caught a cold. I keep on experimenting with continuous awareness through the night. But it is hard to concentrate, when I can't breath through the nose. Nonetheless I've done something similar to nearly melting with the "A" (only I use a white dot, situated between the eyebrows) the night before last.

I'll keep you updated.

Ralf

Hi, Naomi. This is what I have for Barbara's website, but this time it took me to an index page. You can try it. http://www.geocities.com/blackmarmalade/index.html Good waking dreams too, Kate

Hi, OK, so nothing is real and all is illusion or dream, but the "I" that is in this dream would still like to know the standard Buddhist explanation as to how the illusion of karma works. Stuck in the dream, Naomi PS, I aso just got the index page

Hi, everybody!

Yes, I definitely think that my son's growing up has had a lot to do with freeing my mind from the practical concerns that necessarily guided me while he was young, so that I can explore again all the other amazing things that a mind can do - as I also used to do when I was young myself. I've heard and read of Hindu and Buddhist traditions that describe the post-childbearing years as the time of greatest potential for spiritual development - the era during which we can de-emphasize material concerns and "go into the woods." Spiritual development in those traditions meaning expanding the horizons of consciousness, I think that's significant!

One of the practical things I did while my son was young was pursue my fascination with biology and get a degree so that I could get a full-time job (with health insurance to cover those frequent trips to the emergency room) - before that we had a really precarious subsistence. I only took one course in cell and molecular biology but it was one of my favorites. I got into it to the extent that the instructor told me she read my exams before grading anyone else's because I thought of possibilities that hadn't occurred to her. She wanted me to come work in her research lab but I was set on wildlife biology - I love to work outdoors, but the stuff that goes on under the microscope absolutely fascinates me.

So, hey, here's what fascinates me right now: We seem to have here a high percentage of people who are both scientific AND creative. Alongside my biologist job I work part-time as an illustrator and writer. (I have a web page almost ready - I'll let you know when you can see some of my art.)Whether or not they make their living at it, everyone in this place seems to me to have developed both their creative and analytical capacities to a high degree. Correlation with interest/ability in lucid dreaming? Or is it just that those of us who keep coming back here do so because we keep finding the kind of people we like to talk with, talking about stuff we like to talk about?

In some other string a long time ago someone observed that these forum participants all seem to be unusually intelligent and wondered about mental traits held in common. Others responded by posting observations about Myers-Briggs personality types - you know, that "INFP" stuff; they had another name for the test - which seems to me to focus largely on styles of interpersonal interaction, and leaves a lot to still be curious about....

Joy

Hi, fellow dreambodies. I also noticed that many people on the forum seem to be scientific and/or arts-oriented. (I don't want to say creative, since there's a lot of ways to be creative.) Then there's the engineers...wild cards in their own way, in my experience. Anyway, the people who are scientific and artistically creative both make me wonder about a good right brain/left brain connection being a help in ld'ing. And, the idea of a lot of active neural pathways in the brain, period, being a help. Lucidity to all and to all a good day, Kate

Hi, Personally, I think I am happiest when my life is balanced and has both left (logical, scientific) and right (artistic, intuitive) brain activities and interests. I find I am attracted to people who also have both sides of their brains working, ie, both rational and creative. I think a lot of people are stuck in one or the other. I'm glad to see so many ambi-brained people on this forum. Naomi

Actually, I didn't mean to be judgemental about people who favor one side or the other of their brain. Anyway, categorizations like that are probably left brain activities, and I also remember reading somewhere that the left/right brain dichotomy is now considered not to be as clear cut as it used to be, and our brains are more flexible than we previously assumed. Joy, not only your dreams are beautiful, but so is your writing. And so is your open air job. I'm envious. As for molecular biology, it is interesting, but life in the lab does get claustrophobic in various ways. I haven't had much success with the Novadreamer so far. The only time I got close to incorporating the signal light was in a nonlucid dream in which I was shopping for a red sweater. And last night I took it off in my sleep.

I agree that the labels are limiting and I've been thinking that maybe there's something important about the intermingling of these different types of mental process.

The very act of recognizing and maintaining a lucid dream seems to be a delicate balance between rational, directing, manipulative processes and intuitive, accepting, perceptive processes. It takes a rational intervention to call a dream a dream, and to manipulate its course; but by recognizing everything in it as having no substance, I risk negating a dream altogether and losing it. It's tricky! A few days ago I described the elfin-woman who responded to my query "Can you tell me how to stay dreaming?" by having me pay close attention to perceptual input - and then giving me a conceptual question to appply to it!

I should have said this in response to the query about which dream yoga methods I like: my true favorite is the "daytime practice" which I sort of discovered on my own before reading about it. Noticing how wonderfully vivid and real my calico cat looked in my first-ever intentional lucid dream, I thought, I bet the everyday world really looks just as vivid and wonderful if you pay attention - why not go around like that, and really notice? So I started going through at least some small part of my day as if it were a lucid dream, marvelling at everything I perceive - without knowing this is supposed to promote more lucidity in dreams.

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche writes, "Being distracted by a cloud of concepts is a habit and it can be replaced with a new habit: using bodily sensual experience to bring us to presence, to connect us to the beauty of the world, to the vivid and nourishing experience of life that lies under our distractions. This is the underpinning of successful dream yoga." I think it's very powerful. And it's a great way to live!

Joy

I agree that there is so much in dreams, as well as waking life, that defies labeling. Sometimes it seems almost as if my dreams are purposely not giving me too easy an answer, because that would lead to to a label. As I'm trying new things now, this seems even more evident. For instance, I started using a Novadreamer last week. I've had one lucid dream since then, but it was when I wasn't wearing it! My non-lucid dreams with the nd, however, have been incredibly vivid, more so than the lucid dream, which was rather blah, though I did manage to fly through a 2nd story window when I remembered that other dreamers did such things. Maybe the vividness of other dreams is due to the fact that I've started drawing a dream image in oil pastels upon awakning, as well as my usual writing of the dream. I'd be interested if others have had similar experiences.

Naomi

Naomi- how is the situation going where you ceate a dream image in oil pastels? I would like very much to do that also, but I'm unable to do artwork without photos. I'm hoping that may change with my ld experiences. For now, I can forget it, though. I started drinking herb tea and getting somewhat more vivid memories of dreams. In particular, I recall being in someone's living room in a dream and envying their squash blossom yellow walls. In reality, I live in an apartment where we're not allowed to paint, and the walls are this disgusting Navajo white. I would so like to have colored walls, but that's a small thing in life, I guess. In my apartment before I met my husband, years ago, I had a small lobster-colored bedroom with a gold-framed mirror hung with mardi gras beads and a pretend tiara, and a squash-blossom-colored living room with colored bottles and glass balls and prisms in the windows, and a teal study with lots of plants. Every morning I could see maple trees outside the study window, which were betutiful in the fall. (I lived in New Jersey.) Anyway, I'd like to hear how the painting dream images thing is affecting you. Does it help? Warm regards, Kate

Hi Kate, I live in an apartment with white walls too, and have had similar desires after seeing friends paint their walls in luscious colors. You can decorate in other ways, though. About the dream drawings: first of all, don't think of it as making "art"! The first thing I do when I wake up, all groggy and bleary-eyed, is reach for my dream journal, scribble a few phrases about the dream I had, then reach for my sketchbook, still groggy and bleary-eyed, and scribble one scene. I use oil pastels because when I used pastels, which are my medium of choice, the bed got very messy. You can use crayons, but I don't recommend paints for the same reason as pastels, unless you wash your sheets every day. The thing to do is to just plunge in and draw before you start to think about how you can't draw or how impossible it is to draw this weird dream scene. Most of these drawings I've done look very dumb and childish, but one of them I like and I want to do a large version of it in pastels, but I have a block regarding doing "real" artwork: I usually only can do it in a class setting, and I'm not taking any classes right now, so I just keep procrastinating. Naomi

Hi, Naomi. That's a good point, about just trying to capture something (in artwork) and not worrying about how it looks. That's something I need to do with my regular artwork. I spend too much time worrying about getting things right instead of just doing something and going from there. I am SO controlled! A coping mechanism I can afford to let go of now. I have some oil pastels also, so I will try doing a rendering in the am. I even have a blank canvas, so I think I'll just use that and maybe end up with an interesting collage thing. (Or a big mess.) But the good thing about creative pursuits is that it's never wasted. You learn. I also like soft pastels, and I did some recently of the intriguing scenery around here. But right now I'm using acrylics and those new water-based oils. You can just go over your mistakes or change course for whatever reason, and get away with it. Pastels are wonderful, though. I like child art very much. I used to enjoy looking at the stuff lining the halls at my son's grammer school back in GA. There's a park in Oakland, I remember, with a lot of tiles made by children. Do you know it? Do you have a scanner? I don't, but we may get one soon. I would like to see the drawing you want to go with. Do you feel your doing artwork of your dreams is helping to foster lucidity? I'm not sure why I seem to be having a problem getting lucid. If I can summon the energy, I may ride in the elevators in my building tonight. Elevators show up in my dreams a lot, and I really liked the idea Mario from S America came up with about going to different levels in an elevator and writing on the walls that from now on, I will become lucid in all my dreams. I've tried this a few times, using my own ideas about what I find on the different levels. The first level I use is the scene of a candy store I saw while Christmas shopping. I also use a cave, with beautiful glistening formations. Anyway, I like the elevators in this building because the 3rd floor on one wing is really the 2nd floor on another wing, because of the slope of the land. There's something surreal about that that seems like a lucid thing. (To me, obviously.) I'm also going to try the plan that someone in Isreal came up with, of looking at the clock off and on as you're drifting of to sleep, until one time when you look, it shows a weird time, and you go lucid. That plan appeals to my left brain side. Are you allowed to paint your walls? I'm not, or I would. If you like, I could badger you about doing "real artwork." You could always tell me to stop, and I would. Thanks for your prompt response, and wishing you and our lucid brethren success in growth, Kate

Hi Kate, Thanks for the offer to badger me. I think I'll take you up on it. Maybe it'll work, and I'm ready to try anything, so badger away. I've only had one lucid dream in the 3 weeks since I started drawing dream scenes, and it was nothing to write home about, but my non-lucid dreams seem more vivid, and when I tried the novadreamer I started dreaming (non-lds) about sparkly things, so I bought a set of irridescent oil pastels. A case of dream/art coincidence happened a few days after i sketched a picture of some beautiful silk scarves i saw in a dream. I was walking down a street in downtown Berkeley where there is a window gallery which displays works of local artists. It was the first day of the current display, and there among the works was a tile with the same picture as in my dream drawing. It was a picture of a fish, which is a pretty common theme, but the colors and everything was just like in the dream. I know the wall you are talking about. There is one in Berkeley too, which was made when my son was in elementary school, and he and I each made a tile for it. There are similar walls in other cities. You can look it up at www.wwfp.org. The elevator visualization sounds interesting. I may try it, but first I need to get rid of the clutter in my bedroom, which i think is hampering my lucidity. Dreamy new year, naomi

ps I do have a scanner and scanned that dream sketch, and if you tell me where to send or post it I will. By the way, where do you live, Kate? I found out recently that there is a dream-arts group that is meeting near this area sometimes to make dream collages. naomi

Kate, Naomi, Barbara, me, others, are we a dream-arts group that just happened to tumble into this electronic space all at about the same time?

Happy to badger and be badgered and to share results,

Joy

Hi, Naomi. Unfortunately I live about 600 miles south of you. Thanks for the suggestion about the dream-arts group, I would go if I could, and I'd certainly advise you to. That you saw a tile that exactly represented your work from a dream image is amazing! Maybe it's a sign that you should definitely keep doing what you're doing. Have you set up time to do your "real artwork" rendering of the child-like dream image, young lady? (I thought I'd set the right mental tone for badgering.) Maybe it would be a good idea to visit the wall where you and your son have tiles, to get inspired and empowered. (Pretty New Age stuff, huh? But the word empowered really means something to me - for me it says a lot.) Could you scan to my e-mail address? As far as I know, that works fine for receiving scanned items. Also, can you scan to Barbara's website? I'm not sure if she's still hosting, though. Thanks for the tile website tip - I'll check it out. This has been useful to me, because I think I'll finally work on a dream project I keep wanting to do. It's of someone else's dream, but that's okay. I've been worried because I don't seem to feel like painting lately, but now I think it was more that right now, I need to do a different project than the landscapes I keep fooling with. Joy - I would appreciate being badgered about my plan to paint the normally cat. Especially since I know there'll be some humor in it. Thanks for all the sharing. Yours in maudlin psychobabble, Kate

Dear badgerers and badgerees, I will do "real art", as soon as I manage to clear the year's worth of clutter out of my bedroom. I was up till 3:30AM last night doing that, and I'm going to tackle it again as soon as I get off the computer. I emailed you my dream picture, Kate. Let me know if you got it and could open it. I couldn't find the website for posting dream pics. Uncluttered dreams to all, Naomi

Naomi - Disappointingly, I couldn't get your picture. The first attachment never ended - just kept sending pages endlessly, and had no info on when it would end. So I gave up on that. The second attachment seemed to download fine, but I could'nt make it appear. Both Ralf and Barbara scanned artwork as attachments to the forum. Would you be willing to try that? Otherwise, I can see if my husband or son can figure out how to open your attachment when they get back. I did housework today too. I'm not finished. Didn't even get to the laundry. I think this may be off topic. Domestically, Kate

Sorry, kate, I'm still figuring out the scanner. (2 attachments?, I only sent 1 before). I tried again tonight. Scanning to the forum? How does that work? I haven't noticed any attachments, where are they? I get lost in the forums. I had a strange ld with the novadreamer, where I got lucid before getting the cue and spent most of the lucid dream dreading being awakened by the cue. I posted it in ND experiences. Confusedly yours, Naomi

Hi, Naomi. Ralf now has his own website, http://home.t-online.de/home/Ralf.Penderak/index.htm. If that doesn't work, you can access it off the fun things to do while lucid dreaming site. But before that he had added a painting as an attachment to a regular posting to the forum. I think that's how he did it. So check with Ralf - I imagine he can help you. Congratulations on your lucid dream! Here's to mad cats and novadreamers. Kate