Jeff,

I've not had problem with difficulty in speaking in a lucid dream, the problem I have is getting the dream characters to speak to me. Apparently I need to take more of an interest in them and not regard them as inanimate objects.

If you look on the lucid dream chat lines you'll find flying problems common. I just get variable results, sometimes it works well, other times I just float a few yards and stop. Initially I had some success allowing myself to fall out of high windows etc but I don't do this any more as a matter of principle (in case I do it when I'm awake thinking I'm dreaming). Try putting your arms in front of you like superman and just launching yourself towards a distant object.

One fairly cast iron rule I've found with lucid dreaming is that there are no rules about whether something will work or not. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. This'll probably be the same for your speaking problem so don't worry.

Owen

Hi Jeff. What worked for me the first time I tried to fly in a lucid dream was my assumption I could do it. Everyone else seemed to do it, so I figured anyone could. And I think that's true. I think the same is true of talking to characters in the dream - just believe you can. It might help to imagine flying, too, before you drop off to sleep. And imagine talking to characters. Hi, Owen. The first time I talked to a dream character, I had to make an effort to get her attention. She had her back to me and was moving away. But I'd decided I REALLY wanted to talk to someone, and called to her a couple of times before she turned around. Happy dreams, Kate

Thanks, Owen and Kate for the responses. Owen, I think I'll give the "Superman" method a shot next time I get the chance. Thusfar, I've really only tried jumping straight up vertically.

I'd like to address the issue of being woken up by the NovaDreamer. I am in the process of reading Dr. LaBerge's book (the one that came with the NovaDreamer package), and in it he claims that ones perception of time while LDing is actually quite accurate.

Now, the dream I had last night was probably about 90% complete before I went lucid, and seemed to last much longer than the 3 1/2 minutes or so that the NovaDreamer delays after detecting REM. Does anybody know if perception of time during lucid dreaming is much more accurate than when in a non-lucid state?

The reason I ask is because I would like to work on expecting the light cue and thus ignore as best as possible it when already lucid.

Thanks again for your assistance. I have found this forum to be a great online community.

Has anyone here ever tried Hypnosis to increase vividness and lucid dreaming? I just had a short chat(short means like two sentences in a chat room) where I asked this question to a hypnotist and she said it will work.

Jeff

Flying: High jumps can be quite funny, too. Another tip: Try and dance to increase flying velocity. NovaDreamer cues: Don't look into the light. Look away. This helps to stay in the dream.

Dream time: I don't think, there is a difference between lucid and non - lucid dreams. But remember that dreams use the same features as movies (it is the other way round, of course). You may have a dream of years or decades in some minutes.

Ralf

Hi Jeffrey! About your flying problem, just try waving your arms, like a bird. It's silly, but it has worked very well for me when having problems flying. And when reading about your problem speaking to your dream mates I think of a lucid dream I just had a few days ago. I tried to call the emergence central to see what they had to say. I've never tried to done a more difficult thing in a LD. I can't believe it was so hard, just remembering three little numbers. And that telephone. Arrr... Well, we were certainly not working together. I wonder why so simple things sometimes are impossible to perform in LD's. But I guess this was a one-time occurrence too. I've been able to remember numbers in my LD's before. It's fun though, how illogical and stupid you are in your LD's sometimes. The left side of our brains seems to be more or less shut down during dreams...

Hi Jeff,

One more suggestion to add to the others you're gathering: Try hovering. So simple in dreams. And once you're off the ground, you can roll into spontaneous, high-flying choreography.

Winged dreams, Keelin

Sometimes I just jet around at will, but often now I still fly the way I first found myself doing: as if swimming through the air. I love to swim in water when awake and so this came naturally to me. Usually I do breast stroke, sometimes with a frog kick - good for distance! I read that a lot of people swim-fly. Sometimes I do it to help keep me in the dream if I feel as if I'm starting to wake - vigorous dream-body motion seems to be good for that.

Very often I just float like a helium balloon, sometimes bobbing around on the ceiling to the amusement of my friends below....

You could also try flinging yourself off a high place. From there you could either start soaring or go into free-fall, which is a wonderful feeling.

Linus is right; you never know what amusing lapse of mental ability is going to show up in a dream. But in those fully lucid moments in which you can really feel convinced that anything is possible in your dream, anything is!

Joy

Hi Jeff,

In response to your question: "Now, the dream I had last night was probably about 90% complete before I went lucid, and seemed to last much longer than the 3 1/2 minutes or so that the NovaDreamer delays after detecting REM."

It may be that you simply didn't notice the ND cues. In my journal, I once recorded a dream in which there were (upon reflection) obvious cue incorporations, but I didn't interpret them correctly until the third signal. Later, when I looked at the downloaded data from the SuperNovaDreamer, there was clear evidence that I'd missed more than a couple of cues. (The SND shows how many cues are delivered during each REM episode.)

Does this help clarify?

Another masked dreamer [*], Keelin

Thanks to all for your advice. Keelin-I think that may be the case, as I am still in the process of fine-tuning a custom (setting 1) cue for myself, and have not gotten it it quite perfect yet.

Jeff

Did I hear something about an LD chat group? I'm interested. Where and when is it?

Hey, people, I'm back from cycling in Europe, where i kept up with my reality checks, dream recall etc. Towards the end of my trip, i started doing reality checks in dreams, for example when i saw a ski brochure written by Stephen Laberge, and wondered why. I did some more reality checks in dreams after i got back, but every time i check reality in dreams, even if i don't fully understand the writing when i read it the second time, and even when the clock says an earlier time, my mind somehow finds a way to explain this off as normal. I've heard this is quite a common problem (it's basically what skypony was talking about in the supplemental tips thread) but it's quite annoying. In the last week, i have gone into a series of sort of recurring dreams about cycling in Europe; there doesn't seem to be much content in these dreams that is worthy of reality checks: they are sort of grey boring dreams, not very characteristic of any other dreams i've ever had. (i have never imagined i could ever be bored by dreams!) So basically, i've gone from a stage of missing obvious dreamsigns, through incomplete reality checks, to the current state. Anyone got any encouragement/ideas?

I am still using the NovaDreamer regularly, but don't often get any cues appearing in my dreams, either i don't notice them or they wake me up.... I have also just started using the SuperNova software to upload dream data. Should be fun...

SparkyMarkyB.

Mark:

You should be delighted; you're halfway there! You're remembering your dreams, doing reality checks in both realms, and you're even experiencing the good fortune of a recurring dream that's easy to recognize. Now all you have to do is prepare your mind to work with all the information you're collecting, and perhaps also to recognize the cues from your ND.

This half can be very difficult (there are monasteries full of people struggling to achieve such a state of mind), but it is also profoundly simple. All you have to do is ask yourself regularly ' especially when you are experiencing something similar to that recurring dream ' if the world around you is a dream. I don't mean do a reality check; that's what you would do after you ask yourself if you're in a dream, to prove your condition. I mean that you need to consciously wonder if you're dreaming. If you can do that, with true sincerity, then you might have an easier time recognizing dreamsigns, and defeating your own arguments against them.

Here's another suggestion that you probably have heard before ' during waking life, whenever you are inadvertently exposed to a flash of bright light (i.e., the sun gets in your eyes, lightning flashes, or a passing car's headlights brighten your darkened room at night), do a reality check. That might get your mind accustomed to responding to the ND's cues.

Also, a positive mental state, brimming with self-confidence that you're going to have a lucid dream, before you sleep can help dramatically.

Peter

Welcome home, SparkyMarky!

Even in the "grey, boring dreams" you've mentioned, there lies an opportunity to become lucid, especially since the dreams are recurring -- which means you'll have repeated chances to catch anomalies.

When you wake from these particular dreams, do you say to yourself, "There was that dreamsign again! I'm home in England now, so the next time I find myself cycling in Europe, I'll know I'm dreaming!" This is an effective technique!

In setting your intention to catch a dreamsign next time, it helps to replay the dream in your head immediately upon waking. Imagine catching the anomaly, doing a reality check, and continuing with whatever action you wish to take once you've become lucid.

If you're not noticing the NovaDreamer cues in your dreams, be sure you're getting enough to begin with by checking the number of cues delivered. The SuperNovaDreamer software will give you quick, visual feedback on this. You'll be able to see exactly when and how many cues were delivered within each REM period. Also check your dream reports for possible incorporations, and keep up the day practice of becoming critically aware of lights.

If the cues are waking you, try adjusting the settings to give a longer cue with less intensity. So when those flowers blooming alongside the bike path in the French countryside continue to pulsate with a soft, inner glow, be sure to stop and smell the dream roses -- and then tell us all what happens next!

Brilliant dreams to all, Keelin

PS: So you thought it odd that Stephen LaBerge might have written a ski brochure? Did it, by any chance, feature a skier wearing a mask with a remarkable resemblance to that of the NovaDreamer? ;)

Don't give up, people, check out my latest on the "Post your first LD" thread! Sparky

I have very recently started the lucid dreaming program and am still at the stage of recording my dreams. I had never paid much attention to my dreams in the past so was surprised to discover that about 80% of my dreams relate to travelling in some form or another. By this I mean travelling of the conventional sort, either in a car, train or bus. As it happens, I do a lot of travelling in my waking life. My question is this: because I seem to be inundated in real and dream travelling, does this mean I should avoid using the concept of travelling as a trigger for becoming lucid? In other words, should I try to find a symbol that is more unique or unusual in that it may 'stand out' better?

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this matter.

I personally am sort of a returning newbie to the area of lucid dreaming, but my thought would be that it might be useful to use a common day occurrence as a dreamsign, because what you could do then is get into the habbit of doing a reality check whenever you encounter that sign, day or night. Find an inconspicuous RC, and whenever you travel, you could use that. The frequency of using the reality check by day might cue you into using it at night. Come to think of it, I might try using walking down the street as a dreamsign; it seems fairly frequent for me. Again, remember that I am not the most experienced at this, so I could be off-base.

Terry

Alison:

Terry's idea is a good one. Constant repetition of a particular reality check while traveling (like, touching the seats of your train as you walk through it) is an excellent way to help coax your consciousness into your dreaming life when a similar event occurs during a dream. However, there is a catch: traveling is a big category, and you will still need something specific, something "odd,' to convince you that you are dreaming, and when the entire dream reflects daily waking life, this can be difficult.

So, when you are traveling through your waking world, you might consider making a point of noticing the odd things that you pass and doing a reality check only when you spot one. This way you will be prepared in your dream to sift enough oddness from the images that mirror life to fail a reality check, and go lucid. Odd things can be anything, from comical people to juxtaposed objects (my favorite of these are the camels that stroll through Rockefeller Plaza every year around Radio City Christmas Show time); your priority should be focusing on them long enough to do a reality check.

This technique might make the most of your familiar dreams without having to get your mind around using the wide subject of travel as a dream sign. Or, it won't, but at least you'll get some excellent reality check practice, and maybe some entertainment as you observe the strangeness around you in the waking world.

Good luck!

Peter

Dear fellow oneironauts!

I'm practising MILD and having WILD for a while now. I very like to do the relaxation and the entering of dreamstate lying on my back. I have experimented with right (and left) side, too. It didn't work bad, but I prefer back, mainly because I seem to be more focussed and can stay long ~ 1 1/2 - 2 hours in this position. I use the "61 points relaxation exercise" as described in Stephen LaBerge and Howard Rheingold "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming". It is focussing awareness on successive points, feeling warm and relaxed there, a journey through the whole body. There were several hindrances, I encountered, keeping me from deep relaxation, here are the most obstinate ones:

Twitching legs: solved that by going through the legs points very diligently or over and over. Seems to depend on the quality of mattress and is more frequent, when I had less physical activity during the day.

The need to swallow / fear of swallowing - coughing: did solve that seemingly by simply more experience, by working on my fear of dying, by intending: "Breathing is always free and easy".

And now, after successfully working on the above, my current hindrance did appear: Every time I relax deeply and enter a dreamscene, I wake up by my own snoring. I've worked on that for some time now. Earplugs do help gradually, getting used to it seems helpful, too. I even tried to do the thing sitting, but did snore, too. I suspect this may be another round in the "resistance" game. It may also be a practical problem, that comes with deeper relaxation and - I can't dismiss that - with a slight overweight, that seems to be often linked with snoring. But I did snore, when I was thinner.

Any help, comments, experiences, links, book - tips are welcome.

Thanks

Yours Ralf

Learn to love it? Swami Yogananda wrote that snoring is a laudable sign of deep relaxation. Robert Moss recommends "shamanic snoring" for traveling at will among realms and dreaming true. Barbara Ann Brennan describes "rasp breathing" to stimulate the pineal gland, associated with the third eye, to fine-tune psychic vision; her description sounds a lot like snoring-while-awake to me.

ZZZZ ZZZ ZZ Z as your friend Joe says, Z ZZ ZZZ

Joy

Joy

Your suggestion is very welcome. I tried it this morning in a MILD exercise. I did en joy it and maybe had an experience of dreaming true. I have to confirm it firstly.

I did think similar: This problem with snoring did emerge, BECAUSE I learn to relax deeper and deeper.

Tons of thanks to you for all the joy you over and over add to my LD practise.

Yours Ralf

I must be made of different stuff. I've been attempting to have lucid dreams for over three years using every method known, nearly every night; everything from MILD to WILD to using a NovaDreamer, to having my wife talk to me durring REM, and still nothing. Maybe one brief flash of "I must be dreaming" every couple months. Once I get into that lucid state, it usually only lasts a couple seconds, then I wake up. This has been one of the most frustrating endeavors I've ever undertaken. I am used to being good at whatever I choose to do, but lucid dreaming has eluded me.

One feeling I've had, probably from paranoid delusion more than anything else, is that I'm being blocked somehow. Someone or something, an entity or force unseen, is preventing me from lucid dreaming. Why that is, I don't know, maybe because I'll discover something in the dream world Im not supposed to, who knows.

Either way, this has been a most frustrating journey. If anyone can offer some advice to help me break through the wall, I'd appreciate it. My next plan is vistiting a hypnotist to try to uncover whatever might be blocking me.

Dr. E

Dear Richard, nice to hear from you again!

I feel with you in your frustration, in fact I've been at that point sometimes, too.

I will try and take a look at your blockade from the point of view of learning theory, firstly:

It seems, you have learned to not succeed in getting lucid. Maybe you expect to not get lucid, at least now after all the years. The key words in this context are: goal setting, level of motivation, expectation and success.

Find thoughts on this in "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming", chapter two, pp 48 ff. and in "A Course in Lucid Dreaming" Unit 2.

You said, you were successful in whatever field you did choose until now. That has been the same for me, before I tried lucid dreaming. I had to get into systematic goal setting and learning for this very special task. There may be different reasons to this, Stephen did go out into them. The main reasons for me seem to be: Mostly no instant feedback on learning success / progress. Few social rewards for lucid dreaming. Resistance in my belief system against the possibility of lucid dreaming. My expectation: I had tried lucid dreaming in vain some years ago.

So, when I started, I did only do reality checks all the day with all power of intention and was lucky - seen retrospectively - to have had a lucid moment after some month of trying. After my first blown up LDs I was then motivated to take the systematic approach.

So, I think, if you re - start with setting easy goals, you might find a way back to success. At least for me that worked. Keep a dream diary. Look for dreamsigns. Work on dreamsign awareness. Do RCs. Set you first goal to: "I will remember and write down at least one dream with DSA1 when I wake up." So, maybe within the first week, you will reach this goal. Then, be glad!! Enjoy it!! Reward yourself, do something pleasant. Celebrate it as a breakthrough, even if it feels ludicrous to you. What I mean is: Learn to be successful again. And share your experience in this thread. I will then congratulate you, be sure. Maybe more people will join in the applause. Done that, we and you will continue to reach ever higher goals.

I hope, that helps

Catch the dreamsign!!

Yours Ralf

Richard, it's quite difficult to offer any advice as you do not say what your normal sleep patterns are, are you a deep or light sleeper for example. Also you do not say what kind of practice you do for lucid dreaming. Do you do prospective memory tests? Do you count the number of dreamsigns you identify during the day? Do you really work that hard at it?

I note from one of your previous posts that you are a composer. I have tried to play the piano a number of times in lucid dreams. Really I'm not that good at the piano, and wouldn't have time in an LD to work my way through a remembered piece, so I've tried to play scales. C major seems to be OK, but the black notes cause problems as I might for example have the three black notes (ie G flat, A flat, and B flat) immediately followed by another group of these three notes rather than D flat and E flat!

I do hear more music in my NLDs than LDs. Sometimes I think it's beautiful, often choral music like Bach, but I don't remember sufficient of the details, nor have sufficient skill to write it down when I am awake.

I wish I was good at art, painting. A few times in LDs I've gone into rooms to look at the pictures on the wall, and some I've wished I could reproduce.

Owen

Ralf's advice matches what the Tibetan dream yoga guys say (and apparently have been saying for hundreds of years): On waking, feel happy and appreciative of any dreams you recall. Enjoy how vivid they were, or lively, or colorful, or weird, or how well you remember them. Tell yourself, "NEXT time I see that purple cat, I'll know I'm dreaming! And then I'll...."

My dream recal is very high- 3 or 4 very detailed entries in my dream journal every morning. I am a VERY deep sleeper. I sleep right through thunderstorms, and other loud noises.

I do random RCs 5 or 6 times every day; which don't seem to help (I never do it in my dream unless as a test when I notice a dreamsign). I am thinking about lucidity ALL day every day, almost obsessively.

The times I did become lucid, it was when I noticed something odd in the dream, like I'm at my old job, or, most of the time it's something airplane related. I catch 90% of airplane dreamsigns (I think that's due to the fact that I'm a pilot and I notice even the slightest oddity about planes). However, I don't dream about planes more than once a month or so, according to my journal, so I need to find other dreamsigns to watch. I think I can catch when I'm dreaming ok with more work, but whats frustrating is waking up immediately upon becoming lucid (or very nearly immediately).

I'm not giving up. The rewards of success are far to high.

Richard

Richard,

I have quite a few a few long lucid dreams now, but I still have the problem that I wake up sometimes immediately on becoming lucid. I think it is a common problem, Ralf has mentioned this too. I do find that this phenomenon of immediate waking might be followed by a lucid dream in which I have time to do a task but not always. I think that the fact that you are having these very short lucid experiences is a good sign.

My guess is that that you are a deep sleeper is not helping at all. I can get to sleep easily but most anything can wake me up usually. However I also crash out into deep sleeps. Often in these I have very vivid dreams that I recall well. They could include dreams in which I test my state, but do not conclude that I am dreaming. My cnclusion has been that my brain is not in a sufficiently "awake" state to attain lucidity.

If you go to bed at midnight, have you tried setting the alarm say to 3am, then 6am etc and waking yourself up totally at these times, and then trying just to think you'll have an LD or trying MILD. It's no good just doing it once or twice, you've got to do it regularly over a long period of time.

I don't want to get shot down here but I sometimes wonder whether it's good for learning lucid dreaming to use the Novadreamer. An apparent short cut that leads to frustrated expectations?

Owen

Richard:

I'm going to give you a suggestion that will no doubt generate disagreement from the rest of the participants in this thread, but it might just work for you: Give it up.

Seriously. Stop trying for a while. Take a break, a long break, from trying to lucid dream. For the next few months, stop thinking about lucid dreaming, imagining its results, and attempting to make it happen. Walk away from your consuming effort.

Why? Because your expectations, your obsession as you called it, could be sitting on your potential to lucid dream like a 16-ton brick. Mix this with your suspicion (one I admit having held more than once) that there's a force out there preventing your conscious leap into the dreaming, and your chances of achieving consistent LD's are slim at best.

Don't walk away from dreaming ' keep on recording your dreams, and, as stated above, revel in the regular dreams that you remember. Indeed, make the enjoyment of a remembered dream a part of your daily routine. But don't concern yourself about lucid dreaming for a few months.

After some time has passed, get back into a routine of sleeping schedules and pre-sleep prep that would best suit a deep sleeper like you ' all of the suggestions above are excellent, and worth considering. Browse the conversations on this site (it is without equal in terms of honestly discussing LD's). Read Stephen LaBerge's book again. Do it all calmly this time, without concern for failure, or inflated expectation of success. After a hiatus you might find this, and entry into conscious dreaming, a little bit easier. Who knows? Take some pressure off yourself, and you might stumble into a LD or two before you even intentionally revisit your effort!

Lucid dreaming must be a mind-set before it can be a discipline. Leave the crowding discipline behind for a while, and give your mind a chance to wrap around the idea of lucid dreaming without your help. Sounds odd, I know, but it might just work for you.

Or it won't, but at least you'll have had a few months to relax!

Peter

Owen:

You're right on the money about the NovaDreamer. It is a handy device, if you already know what you're doing, but I too question its usefulness in inducing that first LD.

-- I sure hope they don't toss us off the site now! -- ;)

Peter

Actually, just this week I have started up again, after being on just such a break from my efforts (three months). Problem is, it's easy to not try to have LDs, but it's not easy to stop daydreaming constantly about it! Too bad you cant lucid day-dream.

BTW, for anyone interested, I just finished the overture to my opera, K'ai. The opera is about a lucid dreamer (K'ai) who comes into contact with the 'other world' of the creators of man. Here's the overture: http://rdecosta.no-ip.com/d/kaiOverture-brief.MP3

Peace, Richard

Richard:

Sorry. From what you wrote I gathered you were working every night for three years.

Never mind.

Richard, that's true, you say,

"I've been attempting to have lucid dreams for over three years using every method known, nearly every night; everything from MILD to WILD to using a NovaDreamer, to having my wife talk to me during REM, and still nothing."

and now we find out that you've been bunking off for the last three months!

Owen

PS I enjoyed your overture. Maybe you should forget about LDing and spend more time composing.

Well, well, some progress. Like I mentioned above, I've been trying to have lucid dreams for three years (apart from the last couple months) with hardly any results. Well, things have started to change. I've had 4 in the last week! and one of them I would describe as being totally "SOLID". In other words, I wasnt just in control of a dream body, I was THERE. I was totally 100% awake and aware and in control in the dream. Heres the account in my journal:

"I'm sitting in a jet (like a 737) on the ramp at the Portland Maine Jetport, taxiing or parked. I look out the window and see a white jet, like an MD-80, take off and pitch up slowly, to the point of being vertical. As I'm watching this I become lucid and say to whoever is next to me, "you know what this means; it means this is a dream." As I'm saying "you know what this means" I actually enter the SOLID state of the dream world. I am actually there in the plane. I can feel the seat, hear the people; it's REAL (this has never happened before to me). The white jet, after it gets 90 degrees in angle, comes down to the ground backwards and hits another Jet (a US Air DC-9) that is taking off, and the DC-9 just bounces backwards like a toy or video game. Very funny. The lucidity lasts only a few seconds, but it's SOLID."

I was wondering what has caused this all of a sudden. Why four in the last week? Then it hit me--- the only thing thats changed in the last week (actually week and a half), is that I've started taking Zoloft to counter some pretty nasty panic attacks I've been having. Could this be 'unblocking' whatever was blocked before? Hmm... Anyone know?

Richard deCosta, Composer http://www.RicharddeCosta.com

Richard,

This has been some days ago. Although I'm very busy, I want to congratulate you for achieving your first SOLID lucid dream. It was extraordinary for me to find myself in a different reality the first time (and it is over and over). I suppose it is the same for you.

For Zoloft I can't say much professional. Zoloft is in the group of medication, that effects serotonin. It is a selective serotonin reuptake inibitor. Serotonin is a neuro - transmitter in CNS and among many processes effects the sleep cycle etc, but I don't know exactly how. But speculate...

1. Antidepressiva might prolong sleep. Can you confirm that? If you had a sleep deficit you might have now a REM rebound that increases likelihood of LD.
2. They might at the same time up the threshold for awaking physically on getting lucid.
3. I did have kind of fear, when I awoke in this strange LD environment. Maybe Zoloft helps in calming this fear and being more detached, and that possibly prolongs your lucid phase.
4. It is said, that at least in the beginning of medication you can encounter a period of being unsettled and have disrupted sleep. That is making LD more likely, too.

I hope you are fine and wish you tons of LD and all the best for overcoming your panic attacks.

Yours Ralf

Some links regarding serotonin:

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/serotonin.htm

http://www.csa.com/hottopics/sleep/overview.html

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/azmitia/lectures/lecture15/index.html

I've been trying to have LD's for months, with minimal success. I had one in December, but I sort of drifted in and out of lucidity. I wasn't sure if I was truly lucid, or just dreaming of being lucid. Until last night...

I dreamed I was at a meeting at work. Things were pretty normal, then something most strange happened. I remember myself thinking in the dream, "That doesn't make any sense, maybe I'm dreaming." Then POW! Like a bolt out of the blue. OF COURSE, this IS a dream!!! But instead of exploring the dream, as suggested by LaBerge, I tried doing too much at once. The result was that I awoke after only a few seconds of lucidity. What a disappointment!

In my next dream (that very same night) I realized immediately that I was dreaming. This time, I was determined not to wake myself up. The dream lasted much longer, and I was able to do a bit of exploring. It was fun. Seeing everything so clearly like I was wide awake, yet knowing this was just in my head. Still, as with the first dream, I was very excited about being lucid. I believe this led me to wake up long before I otherwise would have.

Two lucid dreams in one night. Wow! Even though I'd had only about 5 hours of sleep, I was too excited to fall back asleep, so I got out of bed.

After a couple of hours, I felt very tired. I decided to maybe lie down to take a short nap. Lucidity was not on my mind, I just wanted to rest a bit. I fell asleep on the couch, and had a very confusing dream, the kind where nothing makes sense. Then I realized, hey this is another dream. In the dream I heard nearby voices, but no one was there. Then I thought, "I'll bet that's because I left the TV on before I dozed off. That's the sound of the TV that I'm hearing." How strange it felt to know I was asleep, yet I could hear the outside world at the same time.

I now realize I've been on the verge of lucidity many times without become conscious of it. During many dreams, it had crossed my mind that maybe I was asleep, but I didn't really focus on the idea; it was just a fleeting thought within my dream; little more than a feeling. I realize now that down deep, I've been afraid of waking in my dream; afraid of the unknown; afraid of letting go; afraid of trying something new. This is truly a revelation to me, because I now realize that's how I've been living my whole life. Always "play it safe -- don't take any risks." I feel like I'm on the verge of a mental breakthrough. It's like taking blinders off, and seeing there's so much more to the world. I'm not talking about being lucid, but about what this seems to be leading to. This is great!!!

John- I can't tell you how happy I am to read your post" those are wonderful adventures and achievements. No wonder you're so excited! I'm always really pleased when people can find their way into the world of lucid dreaming. What a great feeling!

One of the benefits of lucid dreaming is something you've touched on here. There is something really amazing about finding out what your mind is capable of, and seeing this capability unfolding right before your dream-eyes. It puts our ongoing human experience'waking as well as dreaming'in a whole new light. There is the excitement of being in posession of key information you haven't had up until now. It's like finding a treasure chest that's been hidden up in the attic, something that's yours, but you didn't even know was there.

You've probably figured out that momentum can build for you now; as you stay focused, the more frequent successes you will have, and the more you'll be reinforcing your lucid dreaming abilities. It's not an exaggeration to say that it does keep getting better. One of the trickiest things is something you mentioned, that is, staying in your lucid dream without either waking up or becoming non-lucid. Your success with this is a good sign you're on the right track.

It's interesting that you've made a connection between your growth in lucid dreaming and the idea of trying new things in your life. This seems related to both self-confidence and inspiration, don't you think? Personal growth is a term that's tossed around a lot, but people don't always realize what that might actually mean.

Thank you for sharing your successes" I'm sure this is just the beginning, and what a great beginning! What kinds of things have you been doing to prepare for lucidity?

Please keep us posted!

Reverie

Nicely put , John...

My 11 year old boy is fascinated with LD's..

I've openly discussed it with him all his life, and he seemingly never learned to ignore those strange circumstances...

Your realizations regarding fear really go beneath the surface. The fear of judgment of others, shyness, insecurities, all take on a different perspective in the introcosm. What better place to examine our motives and reactions, "peel back the onion" so to say..

Fear of interactions and confrontations are one thing, but to have the "faith" to jump 50' between skyscraper roofs, or to "walk on water"... (Grant me some levity, oh, current reigning judge of woo-wooness). Is it the fear of my loved one's reactions should I leave this physical reality that prevents such actions? Until the Higgs-Bosan particle is tamed, the Law of gravity is a strong force to contend with !(Pun not intended, for it's technically not considered to be a "strong or weak force" :~P )

One related topic which I have pondered of late is the effect of gravity on our consciousness...One can argue that gravity is the force which is the basis of our relative time frame, as Einstein theorized the effect of timelessness at a singularity (black hole). How many lucid dreamers have defied this law physically in our introcosm (thanks, JJ, I have been looking for such a term) by flying? Hence, does it not stand to reason that in the absence of this force, the relevancy of time is also questionable? I'm not just talking about Jerry Garcia's hair turning grey prematurely, but a plausible examination for some of the occurrences Dean Radin has publicized. (Woo-woo meter off scale!!!!)

I just needed to through that one out there...

zzzz(our feelings and emotions are the only thing that are truly ours) z z z Joe

"A secret theater of speechless monologue and prevenient counsel, an invisible mansion of all moods, musings, and mysteries, an infinite resort of disappointments and discoveries. A whole kingdom where each of us reigns reclusively alone, questioning what we will, commanding what we can. A hidden hermitage where we may study out the troubled book of what we have done and yet may do. An introcosm that is more myself than anything I can find in a mirror." Julian Jaynes

John,

I was interested in your report as I also find that if I have a lucid dream there is a good chance that I will have another one or more that night.

Generally having an LD makes my feel wide awake. Usually I have a very slight headache, nothing unpleasant. I think that awakedness contributes towards having the more LDs.....as one might expect.

I now know for sure (because of the analysis I have done on my LD record) that alcohol increases the chance of me having multiple LDs. But I need to drink a certain amount. This is sufficient to have very slight hangover. I crash out for maybe 5 hours and awake wide wide awake. I drink some water, feel annoyed with myself, and lie there wide awake. I relax my body and start to think of LDs maybe try MILD and I'll have the LDs.

I'd not take alcohol deliberately for this purpose, but rather it makes me aware how important it is (for me) to be really wide awake to have a good chance of an LD.

Owen

Johns posting the other day made me want to tell all the world that at last I had a DILD. After four years of trying I really did recognize a dream sign and became lucid. Oh, I've had lucid dreams but they all came out of the blue. I remember having lots and lots of dream signs - always afterwards. I recall one dream where four of my dream signs came up and my mind didn't even rise an eye brow. The most atrocious things have happened in my dreams and my dream ego goes right along with them. Well, now it happened and I translate for you what I wrote down:

It started in an office, where I seemed to be working. I had a bad conscience because I hadn't done enough work. I tried to but couldn't remember any work I'd done. I kept walking around and talked to people trying to remember. Then I wanted to leave the building but couldn't find either lift or staircase to get down to the ground floor. I was embarrassed, because you are supposed to know your way out of the building you work in, but I had to ask. Somebody pointed out a direction. But there was no lift. A door I opened gave into a normal office room. Then I was outside the building standing on a small road sloping down between two walls. There was no building at all, not even the one I came out of. And I knew I was dreaming. To make sure, I did some test jumps though I was feeling very self-conscious about it: An old man jumping up and down in the middle of a road. I jumped higher and higher, at last sure I was dreaming and I stayed up, hovering. First it was hard work 'swimming' with my arms flapping, later on it was easier. I made some exercises to stabilize the dream - touching things and such. Then I tested the 'name calling', Stephen had been talking about. That somebody said you couldn't to do it without waking up. Well, I called my name several times and nothing happened. Now I looked at everything around me to see how real things were. All those details and all of them three-dimensional: The rough wall with its bricks and its joints, a wooden grid on the top of the wall. I looked closely at the trunk of a tree, which was growing behind the wall to my right, the bark, the branches, twigs, leaves and buds. I asked myself, how all these details could be stored in my brain when in real life there wouldn't be any possibility to come up with any of them. I mean my brain is just that big. Behind the wall was a sort of kitchen garden with nice rows of vegetables. Then a fence with its thick posts and wooden slats. Beyond that a wide place with people walking around. Leaning against the farther side of the fence, there was an Afro-American lady with a naked little child hanging at her skirts. ('Afro' I could see, how I knew she was 'American' I can't say). They were standing with their backs towards me. Even here all these details: The little plants pale green with their tiny leaves and shoots, the brown earth between the plants, glistening where the spade had turned it, the thick calves of the lady's legs, her skirt with its printed, flowery pattern and a sheen of light on the black skin of the little one. Sadly I woke up without any forewarning.

The dream sign I recognized was that I couldn't find the building I came from. Not finding things happens all the time in my dreams: I can't find my car, my house, my appartment, my hotel, my door - you name it.

Maybe, John, we are on our way.

Jan

It is interesting to me, Jan, "all those details" that you wrote of. For example, the tree trunk: I can certainly imagine, even as I write this, what a tree trunk looks like, but the image is never as clear as when a) I am actually looking at a tree or b) I am looking at a tree in a LD (really, I do not recall ever paying much attention to a dreaming tree, but I use it here as an example). No matter how much I concentrate (too much effort?) on the details, in my waking memory-imagination, there is a vagueness, which feels like a distance. The tactile imagination seems stronger: I can more easily and more vividly imagine what a tree trunk feels like. This holds true for everything noun-ish--people, places, and things--and is the main reason why I stopped drawing years ago: not b/c I could not draw what I imagined, but b/c I could not imagine clearly enough what I wanted to draw (talking about, "frustration"). (I took, instead, to writing, which is more abstract.)

Sometimes, when I am almost asleep, I get the sort of sensual clarity that I have in LDs. I am not quite dreaming; although there are random thoughts, mental noise, I am still consciously within and aware of my physical environment, but whatever I will myself to imagine appears to my mind's eye as though I were actually looking at it, and the more details I want to see the more my mind creates. What is so amazing about this last is that it is less like, "I want to see a tree w/ this sort of knot in it," and more like "I want to know what this tree looks like up close and personal," and then I am surprised to see that it has a knot... my imagination just places it there.

Joshua (Very new to this forum. I do not currently use any LD-induction devices or techniques, but am hoping to learn some of them while I am here.)

Hi, all. I have several posts I want to do when I get a chance... especially to Joshua, for the interesting post above.

For now, I just wanted to chime in with a potentially parental-sounding but still heartfelt reminder for all us dreamers.

We need to remember we are sleepers, not just dreamers, with a brain and body to take care of. I know you folks probably realize this already, but it seems worth repeating: alcohol beyond a modest amount has a pretty strong effect on REM sleep, as well as lessening one's restorative deeper sleep. REM is suppressed dramatically by excessive alcohol; the night's sleep is nowhere near as healthy, and ultimately there is a REM rebound effect as the brain tries to catch up on this vital function.

True, all this disruption and rebounding can help create conditions favoring a lucid dream or two. And yes, small amounts of alcohol are considered healthy for most people, and when a small amount is taken in the early evening it can help some people relax, and later slip more easily into their night's sleep. But too much alcohol is extremely detrimental to normal sleep function, not to mention overall brain and body health. Serious oneironauts would probably do best to avoid all but the most minimal alcohol consumption.

The disruption that helps create conditions for lucid dreams, should disruption be your strategy for a short-term experiment, can be more healthily achieved through other means, such as varying one's sleep schedule a bit, or setting an alarm.

The subject of alcohol's effects on dreaming has come up recently, and although I'm not saying it was intended as such, I didn't want anybody to infer that alcohol was a good long-term plan for lucid dreaming.

A su salud, Reverie

Hey Brenda, my alcohol induced LDs are by products of partying! I'm not giving that up.

I'm sure I saw reports of wine drinking at lucid dream camp!

Joking apart, to be consistent we should also take to task Carlos Castaneda for all his drug taking to induce LDs.

Best Regards,

Owen

Hi Owen,

Wine drinking at Lucid Dream Camp? Where was I?? Okay, over the many years, I do recall two fellows in particular who enjoyed some imbibing, however, I can assure you, we don't encourage alcohol consumption during our retreats. Of course, indulging in your dreams...well, that's another story.

Cheers! Keeln

Hi, folks.

So" I missed some partying, huh? Yo, dogs! Where was I? Probably sleeping on the job, as usual! :-)

Anyway"

You guys don't know me, but I come at the alcohol issue like I do everything else'the desire to be as fully informed as possible before doing a logical "cost/benefit" analysis, prior to my making a decision. I don't think any of us have a disagreement here" what I'm doing is sharing information I think is important.

The only reason my post was about alcohol and not other drugs is because (1) alcohol was the drug that was brought up in this particular discussion thread; and, (2) people sometimes forget it is a drug.

Consistency is extremely important to me. I don't make any philosophical distinction between one substance and another where these issues are concerned. As best as I can, I look at health and risk factors. People can do whatever they want to, and I merely encourage people to be informed when they do so. Before I wrote my post on the effects of alcohol on sleep, I spent about an hour online, going to reputable websites reading clinical data and reports on the subject. I mention this so nobody thinks I typed up bunch of popular medical clichés.

Anyway, I'm comfortable with my little wine cellar, my internal consistency, and my point of view.

Hopefully of genuine service,

Revelry, er, Reverie" your Designated Dreamer :-)

Joshua,

I would like to be able to do what you described: Visualizing things that clearly while just not sleeping. I seldom have the imagery that I read about in other postings and in Stephens book.

What you're saying about drawing vs. writing goes for me too. In 1973 I gave up my work as an architect and started programming. Very soon I found out that I was much better at this then ever at designing. What amazes me is that, even so, somewhere in my brain is all that information about the details without me knowing that it's there. Since it's there I/you should be possible to draw it, but no.

And I still wouldn't know that it's there if it hadn't been for the LD. Good for us!

On the other hand it wouldn't do to be able to imagine things with the same clarity as seeing them in real life. As Stephen said in Hawaii, you might try to sit on that chair you're imagining and fall on your butt.

Jan

Sheesh! I step away for a couple of days and miss out on a whole thread that even offered a chance to take another swipe at Mr. Castaneda! Oh, well, I'm sure it'll come around again!

I will confirm Keelin's assertion that alcohol is not part of the program at dream camp. Though I must admit that there were a few paradisian moments that cried out for a nice single malt, its absence was inconsequential.

Joshua/Jan:

Nice exchange. I must add though that even perfect conscious visualization of imaginary objects (aka psychotic episodes?) would do little to compliment your artistic motor skills. Even when you know exactly what you see, your brain still has to be able to tell your hands what to do. Except, of course, when you're lucid!

Peter

Jan/Peter:

Thank you for the replies. I recognize that the train of thought that I turned on leads quickly away from the topic of, "Frustration Support Group," and so I would like to stop said train shortly for the benefit of those who are legitimately frustrated a/o seeking assistance. However, since this forum is a sort of discussion, I will add:

As for illusions, delusions, or psychotic episodes: there was no such stuff in my thoughts. I was simply comparing the differences in the details of objects perceived in LDs--and some rare, pre-sleep episodes that I have experienced--to those imagined or recalled from memory while awake. (There is a lot of discussion potential here... the relationship of the imagination and memory with respect to dream content; how much the imagination assists in reconstructing memories; how the dreams of people w/ "photographic" memories compare to the dreams of those w/o; the potential for lucid dreamers to use their creative potential w/in the dream to re/create experiences for a number of uses... these are just some ideas that come immediately to mind, but much of this may have little or nothing to do w/ LDs per se, and certainly not much more of it belongs to the topic at hand.)

As for motor skills: I have them--or had them; like I wrote, it was years ago. I could easily draw things that I was looking at, but could not clearly enough see things from my imagination--or my memory--to draw them as if I were actually beholding them (unless I had drawn them before, in which case I think more was due to my motor-muscle memory than my visual memory). Interesting how you mentioned architecture, Jan: the buildings that I dream of--in and out--are often most remarkable to me.

As for something that I unintentionally omitted from my original message: congratulations, Jan, on your first DILD.

Joshua

Peter/Joshua

What Joshua said goes for me too: If you had put me in front of the object I could have drawn it, but some architect colleges of mine could draw whole buildings from memory. And yes, it's a sort of frustration (even if maybe not a dreamy one) if you learn that its in your head and just don't have access to it - always exepting LDs. It is a talent. Genius has it, we don't.

One example which I like very is much is the following: In the 18th century the Vatican owned a mass which was sung only once a year and nobody was allowed to see the notes. When Mozart was in Rome he heard it and he went home and wrote it down! A mass with eight voices! From memory!

Sorry for the sidestep. Jan

Hi, guys... If I get more than a few minutes to work on this stuff, I'd like to post soon about waking / dreaming / imagining, and the similarities and differences of same. It's a rich topic, one of my favorites. I'm sure if Keelin has a moment she can post some links to where the relevant literature resides in cyberspace. I'm still learning where all this material can be found, besides the file drawer in my office.

Suffice for now to say that it would be maladaptive for us to be able to simply imagine something out of thin air, as it were, at a high level of realism.

PS Hey Peter- I thought I showed admirable restraint in not taking the bait and making a Castaneda comment or two... discretion being the better part of valor, and all of that. (But I guess this remark negates all my earlier virtue). :-)

Write on, Reverie