Hi, Owen and Keelin,

I wrote a reply yesterday, but somehow forgot to post it. Maybe later on.

The thought about quantum physics and the model of multiple universes: It is hard to imagine, but we can try. If everything happens, if every way of decision and evolution exists, than I have to be aware, that there are myriad similar "Ralfs" and I'm only one of them, one among equals. That is why it wouldn't be easy to transfer the consciousness that calls itself "Ralf" to a parallel similar "Ralf". If this transfer is possible, what would happen with the bodies? Would we have one body without and one body with two consciousnesses? The basic assumption is of course, that it is somehow possible to separate consciousness and body. There are some experiences of OBEers and dreamers, that point in the way of perceiving parallel worlds (Aaargh, twitch that meter). How would the parallel Ralf feel, if he would be taken over? Obsessed? Enlightened? Blessed with anomalous knowledge? If we look at these "double slit" experiments, we may conclude, that real photons interfere with virtual (parallel) photons, by this creating the surprising pattern of light and shadows on the screen. And we may conclude, that in a parallel universe, there is a parallel screen, parallel slits, parallel lamps and a parallel observer. If the photons interfere, why don't parallel brains interfere? And what about parallel thoughts? What then is creative thinking? A surprising pattern created by interference of parallel world's thinkers? Isn't a parallel world a perfect simulation? I could imagine a transfer of information via interference between parallel universes. And this leads to an important conclusion: The way we think may influence other universes. So, if we can't change the universe in the "magical" way, there remains the possibility, that everything we do and learn can be an example for our parallel beings in parallel universes and vice versa. And that may provide some additional "meaning" to our life and our challenges here. The thing about time - travelling consciousness seems to point to the same basic assumption, as quoted above. But you go further. You'd like to tear down the wall... it is something, everybody wants to do while using the charm: This is not real! We had this TV series "Seven Days". No paradox situations, just magical thinking, playing with events in time. Psi research seems to show, that perception and action is somewhat dislocated in time and space anyway. Future events influence present actions, etc. Your decision to jump back to an earlier LD would lead to a meeting of a future and a present self. This creates new possible decisions for the present self and by this a lot of new parallel universes. In some of them the event may be prevented. But the future self... . There it is: It just changed its own past. And seemingly wouldn't do a second attempt, if it remembers, what has happened, because the trial was in vain. If it jumped back "into" the same dreaming physical body, the same thread of reality, from where /when it came from. If you stay "on the track" in your time travels, then only the present /prior self would profit. If you don't do it, there is a problem with bodies without consciousness. But wouldn't the travel on the same track be a victory? You increase the possibility of worlds without this tragic event. Or are there other possibilities? Somehow it is very hard to manage thinking in parallel universes and time travel paradoxes at the same time. Each thought disturbs our basic assumptions about space, time and individuality. Speech in itself seems to be incompatible to these thoughts. If you turn reality into a lucid dream, why travel backwards in time? Just nap yourself into an LD and then awake to any lucid dream you would like to have...

Maybe you don't have to turn anything into anything, because there is no thing. Like it was said in the film "The Matrix", we watched during Maui DreamCamp by the child bending the spoon, that hovered in front of it without touching it: "There is no spoon."

There is no Ralf

P.S. Sorry, today I don't have the time for writing elaborate textes.

Adastra

"In my opinion, dreams are fantastic "loopholes" in reality from at least a subjective viewpoint."

I agree. Dreams are that fantastic.

Mario:

"This NCR I think is a very good model to our dream experiences."

It is. But maybe we can create consent, because it may be possible to exchange and prove information gathered during dreams.

And for those people, who still like to read:

This is my previous answer to Owens and Keelin's first posting:

30092001

Dear Owen and Keelin!

I've sometimes thought about, whether to do RC in emotionally / socially tense situations. Sometimes I feel myself "wrong" to check reality in the face of situations like: people suffering or dying, someone weeps, I'm insulted, someone asks a strange question. It is like Alan once wrote - in the memory of Gurdieff groups, as far as I remember - that doing RC, checking consciousness is muchwhat anti - social. There is always a sense of: These people may be not real. Or: These people act automatically (that is the Gurdieff - aspect), I don't. These situations are serious. Is it "unserious" or even neurotic to check the state in the face of these? RC may be used as a way to avoid contact with my emotions. I retreat into an observing point of view. I'm not really IN anymore, not in the situation, not in my emotions, not in my body. But this is only for a short time. The main advantage of RC is: Consciousness. It is like Keelin said: We can make more conscious choices, i.e. we don't react automatically. I don't have the impression, that I avoid situations by RC. I'm getting deeper into emotions, but I have gained self - control and awareness by trying to get lucid. I can't say, how I would react in the face of brute force, in the face of my own possible death. I hope - with you, Keelin and Owen - that we may act graceful, crystal clear and wide awake in the face of essential situations.

Get lucid

Yours Ralf

Ralf and all...interesting discussion. Ralf, good point about the two consciousnesses in one body and none in the other if one nips off to another universe. Perhaps the consciousnesses could swap around, bad news then for the consciousness that finds itself tranferred unexpectedly to a tragic situation....hmmmmmmm. Problem with all this stuff about parallel universes etc is that it is difficult to check out, but interesting nevertheless.

I find that the thought of RCing is actually the first thing to go in any stressful situation I experience.

The anti-social aspect of RCing was, I recall, discussed before on the forum. But I'm sure we all have other secret thoughts that we would not wish to share with others, and there are certainly worse vices than an interest in lucid dreaming.

Owen

From Hero to Zero(nearly)!

Well after my gradual rise to 15 LDs in June, after my first induced LD in September 2000, I've gradually gone downhill.

Last month I had LDs on only two days but on each of these had two short LDs. After initial disappointment - because I thought I was about to crack it in June - it's not so bad being at zero. When you're a hero there is stress of expectation: when your're at zero you can only go uphill! My interest in LDs is undiminished and I'm getting on very well with daily RCing etc.

As a scientist I find the situation challenging because there must be SOME reason(s) for the decline. I have some ideas about internal factors but I want to ask the forum about an external factor that has occured to me - I wonder if it has been discussed before.

In June days are long. My bedroom gets light at 4am or thereabouts. Now the days are getting shorter - darkness until 7-8 am now.

I'm simply wondering if the light in summer wakes me up and this favours lucidity when I fall back to sleep in the light? Has anyone else noticed such a trend?

I've surfed the net a bit for information about the pineal gland and the chemicals it produces, pinoline, melatonin and DMT. I'm not an expert in this area, and I may have get it wrong but what I found was this.

1. In the dark melatonin is produced and causes sleep (but not REM suppression). We know of course that melatonin is taken to cause sleep in those suffering from jet lag.

2. Light acting on the pineal gland suppresses the production of melatonin and causes wakefulness.

Those are the key things but also,

3. Melatonin causes vivid dreams (in fact my NLD are very long and vivid recently - might not be relevant)

4. Melatonin is converted into DMT

5. There is evidence that adminstration of DMT to humans results in an increase in the number of lucid dreams.

Owen

Hi everybody

The terms CR and NCR come from the work of Arnold Mindell, creator of process-oriented psychology and author of numerous fascinating books any of which I'd recommend, especially THE SHAMAN'S BODY and QUANTUM MIND; these have great relevence for lucid dreamers, especially those of us who are into the more far-out possibilities as discussed here. I find CR and NCR to be very useful distinctions these days. As Ralf points out, these may not be really rigid categories; if mutual dreams are possible then a certain degree of consent comes into play in some NCR experiences; conversely, I doubt if any of us agrees completely on CR - consider how divergent witness reports of a crime are.

Administration of small amounts of DMT and other psychedelic drugs prior to sleep (in doses small enough not to prevent sleep) does increase the amount of REM sleep, and I think the vividness of dreams as well - this is mentioned in the Lucidity Institute FAQ. DMT is particularly interesting to me since it normally occurs in the human body and is one of the most powerful psychedelic drugs. I've posted about that elsewhere in the forum; in any case, I'd highly (no pun intended) recommend the book DMT: THE SPIRIT MOLECULE by Rick Strassman, which details DMT research on human subjects in the United States in the early 1990's and would be of great interest to anyone interested in possible contact with parallel universes through altered states of consciousness.

I'm currently more interested in the idea that when we die, we may go into a dreamlike, very fluid and thought-responsive reality in which lucid dreamers would have a definate advantage. Then death would be much less significant, and I could see people I've known and lost to death in (this) CR. Also, if that's the way it is, I could visit them while I'm still alive, in dreams and other altered states. I have encountered the dead in dreams, but so far only in non-lucid ones. They are valuable experiences whether or not they are literal meetings.

Greetings, All:

Great info, Owen..

It is an interesting question you raise as far as external factors possibly affecting an increase or decline in LD frequency.

Everyone agrees that it is in the later phases of one's sleep cycle, corresponding to the increase of "normal" dreams, when LD frequency is generally more pronounced (but I've dozed off in the afternoon to find myself in a vivid dream, and then with ease gone lucid). Logic implies that a reduction of this late cycle time, or the stimulus of external light (making one sleep more lightly (pun intended)) will most certainly have an impact on the situation, affecting normal, and hence L, dream frequency.

But the deeper underlying question is what are the influences, or the particular awarness states, required to achieve LD's? Are there any external cues (or substances)that can be delivered to a dreamer and trigger a LD?

A accurate experiment would be to start with a very regular LDer and vary these conditions and observe the results.

My point is that without the consistancy of regularity with LD'ing, it is hard to gague the effects on LD frequency as a result of varying external stimulus.

I think LD frequency is much more affected by psychological states, such as security, anxiety, sorrow, etc.

I find it helpful to find a new form of RC once the current one seems not to be effective any longer. Looking at your watch in three brief glances done with rigor and diligence has been one of my best methods (I saw Steve doing this in Maui, and knew something must be up!).

Good Luck, and nice to make your acquaintance,

zzzzZZZZ("Why and how we dream are interesting questions, what we can do in a LD is fascinating!") z z z Joe

Adastra...thanks for the Strassman book recommendation.

Hello Joe, I've never had a lucid dream in an afternoon nap, perhaps you nap for longer than I do----not longer than 45 min for me, usually 10-20 min.

Regarding the question of changing RCs when they no longer work. Last few times the writing test has not been good for me. I've even recalled in a dream 2 days ago my intention and waking practice to carry the test out vigilantly. I looked so carefully, the word WELL changed to WL but I managed to convince myself that I had misread it and it was initials of someone. I've started to do RCs asking myself if I know where I am. If I do I check my "am I dreaming card". Then I visualise that I've no idea where I am and become lucid etc.

A related question is whether it does pay to have periodic rests from RCing

On the one hand rest can allow the body to consolidate....on the other, would a more determined effort be better in dry spells....I just don't know.

Nobody seems to want to tell me whether they actually do have more LDs in the summer when it is warm and light than in the winter when it is cold and dark :-(

Owen

Don't ya weep, Owen, I can't bear it!

If I take a look at my LD freqency, I must say, I had my most LD in summer: 2000: 3in September, 2001 6 in June.

Hope, you're feeling better, now :-)

Yours Ralf

Adastra

In my belief there is a strong link between (lucid) dreams and life after physical death. This is not my focus these days, but I only want to say, that I often read your posts and say "yes, yes, I agree, wonderful" and so on. But I often think, it wouldn't be very productive to repeat these words over and over again. And in part it is, that I think that surviving physical death is not Forums focus. But maybe I'm wrong. Isn't it a very worthy "application" to meet deceased beloved ones in a lucid dream? I know from some dreams, that they are emotionally liberating - sometimes more intense, than any waking life experience.

Thanks for your interesting posts

Yours Ralf

Hi Ralf

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy my posts and its great to get that feedback from you. In my opinion it is certainly a worthy and interesting application to have experiences of meeting the dead in lucid dreams. Perhaps any further discussion on this would more properly belong in another topic, probably "Applications of Lucid Dreaming." In any case, I don't have anything further to add on the topic at this time.

Oh, except to mention that the latest Lucid Dream Exchange has several articles and other commentary on the subject, including an article by Robert Waggoner on belief in an afterlife being a common side-effect of experience with lucid dreaming. I've only glanced at the article as yet, so I can't really comment on it.

LDE is a non-profit newsletter comprised primarily of lucid dream reports, but also including articles, reviews etc. It is published bi-monthly, in a free email version or a print version. For further information email Lucy at lucyrg@axion.net.

Adastra,

thanks for your words and the link.

Sweet LDs to all

Ralf

Owen and Adastra,

In response to Owen's: "Nobody seems to want to tell me whether they actually do have more LDs in the summer when it is warm and light than in the winter when it is cold and dark :-("

I haven't noticed the difference between summer and winter, but I have in the past noticed a correlation between having LDs and waning moons, which I attributed to light (waning moons rising after the sun sets.)

In response to Adastra: I always enjoy reading your comments and recommendations about books. You help to stretch my imagination. "I could visit them while I'm still alive, in dreams and other altered states." I wonder whether you have seen Raymond Moody's book entitled (I think) Reunions. He discusses creating a physical environment condusive to meeting with deceased loved ones, and he describes his place in Alabama. If you have seen it, I am curious what you think about it.

Hi All, Being new to all this (and extremely keen) I am keen to know if I have suceceeded. From what I have read and a friend of mine that has been LDing for a number of years (just nott too successful) told me I have LD'd but when I awake I feel that I have just had dreamt about something that maybe I had wanted to do in a dream anyway.

Last night I realised I was dreaming and so picked up a piece of paper to try and read text to make sure. The text stayed the same but I concluded that this wouldn't help as I was already knew i was dreaming( I was dreaming of UFOs in the back garden so it was kinda obvious ). Insterad, I remembered tips on trhe forums and started to spin. Everything stopped being blured and I just sort of knew that I was fully luid so I decided to take a stroll outside this hanger onto the landing platform (!) But I started to feel like I was lying in my bed so everytime I did I began ti spin until I felt I was lucid again. This happened 5 or 6 times and the whole thing lasted about a minute.

Now, I am aware that I told myself to do all these things but it just feels like a dream now. Am I being because, after all it is only a dream anyway ? I think I am expecting too much, especially at this early stage.

Any confidence building would be great

Cheers, Dave(UK)

Hi, Dave!

Welcome to the forum!

It is easy to say: Yes, you have been lucid dreaming. It simply means: "dreaming, while knowing you are dreaming." Congratulations! And please feel free to post a detailed dream report in the thread "post your lucid dreams..." "Last night I realised I was dreaming and so..." "I was already knew I was dreaming( I was..."

You could define lucidity as "knowing, that your body lies sleeping in bed, while you perceive a dream /dream images" "But I started to feel like I was lying in my bed" This may have been the case, because lucid dreaming is very close to the waking state. I still often awake promptly on getting lucid. You did not only dream lucid, but perform a dream - prolonging task: spinning.

"Now, I am aware that I told myself to do all these things but it just feels like a dream now." OK. Lucid dreams are dreams. There is one main difference. You "simply" know, you are dreaming.

And please tell us, what you have done to get lucid. What kind of daytime practise? You write in your bio, that you have an excellent dream recall, what does it mean (frequency, quality) and how did you achieve it?

Keep on good work

Ralf

Thanks for the friendly welcome ! I am still amazed the way newsgroups tend to dislike new and inexperienced users and that is obviously NOT the case here

As long as I can remember I have always remember several dreams per night and the details always also amazes me. This has only come to light after meeting new employee 6 months ago. For some reason we got onto the subject of dreaming one day and he asked me if I could see and remember wht my hands looked like. I hadn't a clue what he was on about and thought him quite mad. He went on to say that what I described in my dreams was pretty good (colours, smells, details of faces (which I can never remmeber while awake), tiny details like the colour of somebodies hat, or the time of day in the dream things were happening at). I questioned his curiousity and he went on to explain that he occasionally has Lucid dreams but nevery very sucessfuly. He went on to explain what these were and how he had read that the biggest step to achieving lucidity was dream recall). Being able to do this gave me confidence in getting lucid myself so I bought a few books and started reading newsgroups. Since then I have just about everything to and not to do to achieve lucidty. things like "dream recall has nothing to do with LDing" and "you must be able to recall dreams" etc etc. With the amount of time I spend working I really don't have much time to practise and always forget to do reality checks. I think my sucess so far relies purely upon when I try to go to sleep every night I spend a couple of hours trying to get to sleep but I am constanly planning my next day and trying to sort things out in my head. I believe my mind is so active I have, purely by luck, becme lucid a fours times.

I am getting really confused by different people giving me different advice and telling me how wrong I am to try one method instead of another. I am beginning to feel it is more like a competition than helpful advice (hence the reason for my membership to an organised forum like this one).

I was really tired from staring at a monitor all morning so this afternoon I had a nap and (although rather blury) I believe I had a false awakening. I looked at my digital clock and kinda realised I was asleep. I then remember looking into a think fog, straining my eyes to see. I then remembered to look at my hands but this did not help at all so I tried spinning again. I felt this did the trick but that is where it ended. About once every couple of weeks for years I have had a dream where I am realised I was dreaming but always awoke or drifted into another dream straight away. The first time I retied LDing I spend a couple of days looking at my watch and then wore my watch to bed (something I never do so I thought I would roll over and feel it prompting me to look at my watch in my dream) I did and it spiraled into weird shapes. I was so excited that I knew I was dreaming and wanting to control it that I awoke instantly. This seems to be my main problem (once I finially become ludic)

When ever I ask my next question on a forum I usually start arguments but .... is there a provem method of developing LDing or is it just what ever seems to work best ?

Sorry if I have bored you all to death Hopefully I can be LDing regularly soon now I have started and can contribute to the group and help newbies like I am now.

Thanks for listening guys. Dave.

Dave

You are right to say, that you have to find your own way to get lucid. There are certain factors increasing the likelihood of LDs: 1.Enough sleep 2.Good dream - recall (at least two dreams per night) 3.The expectation to get lucid. 4.The time of day 5.The balance of wakefulness and "dream - mood" (see MILD in FAQ) 5.Training (daytime - practise, i.e. writing down dreams, looking for dreamsigns, doing reality checks, setting goals and intentions and others. This list isn't complete.

You'd better start looking up the whole thing in

http://www.lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html

If you take the time and browse through the forums posts, you will find a lot of techniques and approaches to get lucid. Find out, which serves you the best! But although you already have a lot of tips, I recommend the following: "I think my success so far relies purely upon when I try to go to sleep every night I spend a couple of hours trying to get to sleep but I am constantly planning my next day and trying to sort things out in my head. I believe my mind is so active I have, purely by luck, became lucid a fours times."

It seems, that you are able to maintain awareness for some time prior to sleep. Maybe you should use this ability and learn to induce WILDs (Wake Induced LDs). If you want to do it, you have to learn to relax so deep, that your body falls asleep, but your mind stays aware. Maybe this would make more sense, than going through tomorrows schedule over and over again and you will awake more fresh.

Another ability is dream recall. If you look for your most frequent dreamsigns, you can use them as triggers for lucidity.

It doesn't really matter, what you do, as long as you take some time and practise diligently. Stay to one or two exercises for a month or two to find out, if you succeed. You can use "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming" by LaBerge and Rheingold as a course. Or try the LI's "Course in Lucid Dreaming". It is very structured, somewhat funny and the money pays off. I have profited by the course and work on it, whenever I have time. You can keep your own pace and still don't loose the thread. Everything is available at the LI's site

http://www.lucidity.com/

Perhaps I should take brokerage :-) , but for me LaBerge's and LI's approach is the most scientific proved, the best practicable and structured one, I know until now. And I've looked around: In Germany, we have Paul Tholey, but he doesn't do as much, as the LI. In Switzerland it is Werner Zurfluh. There are a lot of very proficient lucid dreamers, but not everyone has got this scientific background. You can be sure, that lucid dreaming is presented here "downsized" to the essential, but most effective techniques. And taking part in this Forum is surely worth the effort, especially for beginners. I've been a beginner, when I joined this forum two years ago. And I had some interesting LDs since then, increased LD frequency from one per 33 years to six per month. And today I'm proud, that I can support people like you.

OK, Enough for today. My beloved one is waiting...

Get lucid!

Yours Ralf

To subscribe to The Lucid Dream Exchange, send a blank email to:

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Or join through the Yahoo Groups website at http://groups.yahoo.com/

The LDE can be found under Sciences>Social Sciences>Psychology>Sleep and Dreams.

It's better to do it this way, then use the email address I gave for Lucy.

Thanks, Mary

I have heard of Reunions, but have not read it yet. A friend loaned me a copy and told me of the technique Moody developed; it sounds like something I might be interested in trying at some point.

To my fellow dreamers ...... :-)

I have a question regarding to 'falling asleep' part of the evening. The foundation of a Lucid Dreaming adventure. I have now encountered a problem. Falling asleep for me is a process probebly taking anywhere around 1 to 2, or even 3'ish hours !! I find it difficult to clear my mind and relax ..... After completing the "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming", I have tried pretty much all the relaxing techniques : they all work, but it's a matter of simply taking too long to drop off.

I have had success once inducing a WILD, which I recorded in this forum earlier in the year, and what a magnificent and worthwhile prize it was.

My question is : Has anyone here experimented with sleeping pills ? I would certainly use precaution should I use this method ... but does anyone know if this could help the time gap I am experiencing when trying to induce Lucid Dreams ?

All the help and answers I have received over the last year or so are all greatly appreciated ........ and Hey, I may even put in a good word for you all with the Sandman ..... !

Kindest Regards,

Hi Daniel !

I've experienced some sort of insomnia two weeks ago. I'm considering it as some sort of payment for my sleep experiments. Currently I've restored normal sleep phases. Try "melatonin" -- it's neurohormone which controls the phases of sleep. There are a lot of info in the internet. I didn't use it though, the evening jogging helped me and simple method of relaxation: I'm checking my muscles if they are relaxed starting from the toes and finishing by the neck. Then I'm trying not to move as long as possible -- it's important, because moving body will never fall asleep. Then I'm thinking of something outside my body -- do not concentrate on your feelings and thoughs and especially -- the sleep itself.

Hope this will help you,

Dmitri

Hi Dmitri,

Many thanks for you advice. I think I am going to try the exercise which sounds like a good plan......something to get me feeling just that little bit more dozey. I must say, I'd probebly use chemicals as a last resort, but will look into the neurohormone you mentioned - thank you.

I find I also get very frustrated when trying not to move after going to bed. I usually find after 15 or so minutes, that I have to swallow, or my girlfriend rips the duvet off me!

Again, thanks for the advice -> Take care!

Kind Regards,

Hello! My name is Justin, and this is my first post to the LI forum. I've been learning LD for the past two months, and I would appreciate feedback or criticism of my efforts so far.

I've read and re-read EWLD and I know for a fact that LD is possible to accomplish. I do an "Am I Awake?" check whenever the waking scene changes, such as car to office, office to gym, etc. My dream recall averages to one dream per night, thanks in large part to a lighter diet and frequent exercise. I've also been keeping a dream journal and I have a tape recorder at my bedside to record dreams without turning on the lights and writing.

The problem is the "retardation" effect described by Lynn Levitan in the "Fool's Guide". Either the dream images are stimulating, or they are intimidating. In the latter case, I have dreamed of driving 70+ MPH on a freeway that looked like a roller-coaster while other drivers passed me. In the dream, I tense up and try to keep to the course. I should be asking "Why am I driving a Grand Am on a roller coaster with other vehicles passing me over 70 MPH?" Yet that does not happen since I fear getting lost on the freeway or having a collision.

I've had plenty of intention, as far as I can tell, yet not results. Should I modify my approach or try something different?

Hi, Justin. I just wanted to welcome you to the forum. I'm not experienced in lucid dreaming, so I can't help you much. I can say that although my frequency isn't too great - I measure it in weeks, not days - it has greatly increased since I got on the forum. I used to just have them randomly, once in a while. And though I knew of Stepen Leberge's work and had read articles about it, I had the feeling that I wouldn't be sucessful, so I didn't pursue the work. But recently I had a couple of them, in which I was cued by the bizarreness of something, and I decided to get the novadreamer. I started going on the forum after that, and I learned a lot and also got inspiration and ideas. I ended up neglecting the novadreamer, but have just started using it regularly - the past few nights - and I find that while it's not cueing me in my dreams, using it seems to be greatly increasing my nonlucid dream recall. I adjusted it yesterday to greater sensitivity when I saw how few times it had cued me during the night. I also increased the intensity. I think I need to fuss with the settings until I get it right for myself. Anyway, my advice for now is to make use of the forum. There's a lot to read on the different topics that's useful and thought-provoking. Also, if no one responds to you here, you can post in other areas. You might want to ask more specific questions - they're easier to answer. You might want to post on the reality check site. Good luck, Kate

Justin - you can also e-mail Keelin, who is a forum moderator, at p.keelin@ix.netcom.com. She is very experienced, knowledgeable, and helpful. The people on the forum are nice people, so feel free to jump into a conversation. Kate

Hi there... 8-)

I was just thinking and would like to share and hear your oppinion:

All my recent lucid dreams were triggered by the use of my MEMORY, short or long term. For instance:

Once I checked my hands and, when I saw they're were my own hands I became lucid. But to do this I had to use my memory. Otherwise, how could I know that that were MY hands and not someone else?

Another time I pass through a door and when I turn myself again to look at door it was colsed. So I thought: "This can't be. This door was open!!!" And then I became lucid. How could I know that the door was closed if I didn't remember it was open???

In another occasion, I was inside my car and begun to do reality checks. Everything was absolutely normal. But when I tried to levitate I begun to go up and then I became lucid. How could I know that levitate was "impossible" if I didn't remember it was impossible?

Yet in another ocasion I was explaining to some people that if I did something impossible would they believe me that that was a dream? Then I floated in the air and stop at the horizontal position about 1 meter high. How could I know it was possible or impossible if I didn't rememeber what is possible or not?

There are a lot of tests you can do in a dream but apparently ALL OF THEM depends on the use of your memory, short or long term, to became lucid.

Is this right? Has anyone an oppinion on this?

Another interesting point is our wake consciousness. It appears also that one thing is to be conscious using a little of our memory, just be observing. And other thing is to be self-concious, when you know something and you know that you know! This seems to be the crucial difference to be achieved in dreams: to be really "THERE", to be lucid, to be self-concious inside a conventional "dream"...

Perhaps our wake state, our wakefulness, can be a result of this memory "fluctuation" in the continuous perceiving of the "world" aroud us....

Peharps if we were more sef-conscious in our waking time, we could develop our memory and this could make easier to be "awake" (or more awake) and self-conscious" in our dreams..

How difficult will be to be conscious inside our dreams if we seldom are in our wake state????

Any suggestion or critics???

mario

Ah yes! I just read Justin's question and Kate's reply, went over to the "Helpful tips for getting started" string to post something I'd been thinking of, and came back here to tell Justin he might want to read it - and found that meanwhile mario had posted something that seems very pertinent to what I was thinking.

I think cultivating a certain aspect of waking consciousness - an acute awareness of our actual surroundings - might be very conducive to greater awareness within dreams. If you read what I wrote in that other string, mario - is that related to what you had in mind?

Joy

Justin - I almost forgot to say - Welcome! And to pass on another bit of advice from the dream yoga guys: Don't feel frustrated when you wake up, but rather encourage yourself by consciously feeling delighted with your increased recall and coming so close to lucidity, and happily amused by your near-misses. I'll quote Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche one more time and then I have to go get some work done in the real world: "When signs of progress do arise, greet them with joy and let them reinforce your intent. With understanding and practice, progress will surely come."

Joy (no pun intended - it's the name my mama gave me)

Hi, Joy. I have to run, but I had to comment on what you wrote about cultivating awareness in the waking state as a good way of inducing lucidity. Just yesterday I incorporated that into a thing I was doing based on a suggestion by Dmitri. I had been going around saying to myself: "since I know I'm dreaming, I should be able to.." (and I would usually try to transform things. Make pinecones turn colors and dance, etc.) But I was concerned that since I of course wasn't transforming things, this would ultimately not work out. So I changed it to, "since I know I'm dreaming, I will become deeply aware of my surroundings." Now I do both, because I think both can be good. Not that I'm having any ld's, but you can't say I don't have intent. Kate

Hey Kate, way cool!

Just a note to Justin who wrote: "I should be asking 'Why am I driving a Grand Am on a roller coaster with other vehicles passing me over 70 MPH?' Yet that does not happen since I fear getting lost on the freeway or having a collision." Obviously you don't live in southern California, where this situation would not even warrant a reality check.

Joy

High, Mario

You are certainly right to suspect, that memory plays an important role, regardless for day- or night time consciousness. It is hard to imagine consciousness without memory. Consciousness is a reference to...hmmm, to something that has been similar a moment ago, at least. Surely, there is something, that refers. And this something sometimes doesn't need an object, that seems to be what is called non - dual awareness. Nonetheless in the normal dual awareness state I refer to something, that hasn't changed, e.g. the model of myself, of my body, my position in space, time, social relations.

Critical consciousness is comparing - comparing isn't possible without referring to memory. MILD is a mnemonic exercise. Intentions sink into our memory, unless they won't work later on. The reference to state (checking, if you are dreaming or waking or...) needs memory.

Let us remember to recognise, that we are dreaming

Ralf

Hi Ralf... and folks too... 8-)

I agree with you...

Whatever "memory" could be it's a mistery for me... People/scientists try to define it as synapses connections, electrochemical reactions, holographical inprints, whatever... but it seems to me only giving a label to something we cannot clearly define.

Memory appears to me more like a "link" or a "thread" between two or more (static?)experiences. This night I had a NLD (conventional ?) dream where things "impossible" happened... and I didn't "remember" to compare them with the "possible" "normal" things/events I'm used in waking life.

This comparasion seems to work automaticaly/intuitively most of the time ... but we shall not forget that since this our mind/brain was "brand new" we were trained and trained to react and perceive our "worlds (the "internal" and "external" ones) "this"way and not "that" way...it's a cultural thing I believe...

This seems to indicate that consciousness is "present" as a reference, a central point that works on memory by one side: "puting" experiences "in" the memory (without this "putting in" we wouldn't remember this dream, right"?) but not letting it "out" to be compared by the critical "process"...

Probably, whatever it really is, this mind/brain thing is a synergy that can work from several inputs, one of then to be our will.

The MILD excercises appears to be such case: our will inprints a condition, a pre-link to "when this happens I'll know I'm dreaming".

A couple of weeks ago I made an exercise where I relaxed as deep as I could, and then went to a kind of big store. There was scalators and I took the one that went down to the next floor. There the ambient was darker and there was nobody there, only glass walls with nothing but darknes behind. Then I went one more floor down and there the space was little with a very little light on.

I don't know from where this idea came but there, in this second basement, I took a special pen and wrote on fire on a very hard granite rock plate: "Mario: from now on, you'll wake up inside all your dreams everynight!"

This done, I went back to the first basement and wrote this again on fire on a bronze plate.

Finaly I went back to the ground level and wrote this same phrase on a big paper to be hold on the wall.

This very night I had four lucid dreams, not too long but impressive ones, one of them I still cannot remember!

This seems to indicate that this sort of self-hipnosis can change the configuration of our "Titanic" habits regarding memory, perception and "self"-conciousness....

I don't have enought time now to write more on this but I hope we can develop more on this later.

Please anybody, send your critics and comments

best of all

mario

Mario- Your idea sounds good to me. I'll certainly try it. Maybe the elevator idea worked well because it represented the deeper levels into sleep. Was that the plan? I dream of elevators fairly often. Thanks for the idea, Kate

Hi Kate...

For the most incredible it appears, I had no idea of what I was going to plan or achieve when I begun to make the relaxation exercise. It just appeared, almost developed by itself, and sounded ok... I tried and had some results... nothing else.

I have no other explanation.

mario

hi, mario -

I've had 2 or 3 experiences like that, when beginning with deep relaxation and visualization, I find events unfolding on their own in an unexpected, powerfully symbolic, dream-like fashion. It was really very much like a lucid dream, although I was sitting up, awake and aware throughout and came out of it easily as the story ended. All of these events were more than three years ago and had to do with seeking advice from an imaginary spiritual mentor. I got good advice, too, which I used; but I haven't tried entering that state since then.

I guess self-hypnosis is one thing to call it. When I described it to my sister she said she'd call it a trance state. I don't know much about it. I wonder why we dreamers don't do more of this? I feel inspired to try it again, for lucidity and for other types of insight. Thank you, mario!

Joy

Hi,

I've got some questions on WILD. I don't know if frustration support is the right place to right it. Here is the situation:

I want to succeed in WILD. I had 2 successes* but that was accidenlty when I woke up in the middle of sleep, I went back to sleep fast. Because that same day I did some jet ski - it was realy easy to re-create the wavy feeling and I got in the dream realy fast.

A few days ago, I woke up ealry and went back to sleep. I fell alseep dreaming I was driving my car and woke up. I closed my eyes fast and thought about the driving again. This time I was lucid (I entered the dream very fast, no vibrations no nothinh), and I used the feeling of driving forward to try and stbalize the dream by having a fake OOBE and change the invirment.

When ever I try the methode in books and websites, of lieing down, after 5 hours of sleep. relaxing and waiting for hypnogogic imagry... I don't succeed. The thing is if I attempt wild befor I go to sleep (befor the 5 hours), I reach very advanced stages of relaxation, very close to dreams. I feel I am on the edge of succeeding entering the dream but there is a block somehow. I have forgotten about WILD for sometime and didn't have much lucid dreams.

But now, these days I want to learn WILD. I actualy need to learn wild and how to enter a lucid dream and make it a basic thing and easy thing to do because I am gonig to have maybe about 5 - 7 years of hard working with very few weekends.

I don't know whym but I find it hard to focus now more then ever. Sometimes I can focus easly so I use these times to practice wild. But, I would appreciate tips from people which had the same situation of beeing on the edge of success, and discovered how to succeed. Divcovered how to make the dream start.

Thank you, Lucid dreams, Guy, variety@lucid.co.il

Hi, everyone. I can't seem to lucid dream anymore. It's been three weeks and two days now. My husband and son are away, and two nights in a row I tried the thing where you wake up in the night and potter around for a couple of hours and then spend a half hour in intention, and then nod off again. I had high hopes for this, but nada. The first night I had wine, and I thought that might have gotten in the way, but the 2nd night I didn't. I had a cheese sandwich, but it's hard to imagine that being a problem. I also focussed on one of my bonsai in candlelight and listened to Loreena McKennit's Wiccan dance as a method of incubation, but my mind just dreams whatever comes up. (I've always been stubborn and somewhat contrary.) One thing is that all I do in those 2 or so hours in mostly lie in bed and read, so maybe it would be better if I got on the computer, or painted, or something like that. Or even walked outside. This is a pretty safe neighborhood. Or I could just go up onto the communal deck and stare at the stars. Maybe I'll try that. Guy - I have had the most success with what I take to be WILDS - it's when I'm close to the surface, anyway. I may try the novadreamer without disabling it for the first 90 minutes to catch myself at the beginning of sleep. It's worth a try, anyway. It's so uncomfortable I usually take it off at some point. But it seems to help in recalling my dreams. The hynogogic thing isn't happening for me, either. I loved the description in Stephen Laberge's book about focussing without focussing on the imagery until a scene emerges, and then entering the scene. Anyway, good luck. Does anyone have the time to comment on WILD's and other matters brought up here? I'm NOT giving up. Thanks in advance, Kate

Guy

I work on WILDs a long time now, because I want to learn lucid dreaming at will. But to say it honestly: I still find it hard to succeed. I would recommend going o to use the "book" method, the MILD method works best for me. But you have to find the right time for getting up and have to find out how long to be awake prior to going back to sleep. For me it is five hours sleep and then approximately 45 minutes wakefulness. In the evening or the night (before sleeping) I can relax very deeply, too. But until now I didn't succeed to enter dreamstate at this point of time. On the edge of success... I had this situation, too. If you have tried hard for some time, you may profit from letting go at the right point of time. I have the impression, the best point is, when you successfully entered the calm and deeply relaxed realm with focussed mind. Then let go off your conscious intention. If you focussed diligently and softly, your subconscious will work for you. You may now trust and let go. You have to get rid of your will to succeed at this point of time. (I have to add, that the latter isn't easy for me) There may be a short black out and then you'll find yourself in a dream.

Kate

Maybe you are awake too long before re - entering bed. It is good to keep on the work. I have to find the right balance of hard work and relaxation time and again. Last night I had a short lucid. I get lucid more frequently in the last weeks, I hope, this is the onset of a basic change into meta - cognition ( I rarely do RC these days). Seems to be the effect of continuous work in the last years (RC and so on), the effect of having had many LDs, the effect of opening my mind and (simply ;->) expecting to dream lucid. My task is still to prolong my LDs. I think, my body and mind have learned to be more awake during the night. This is why I tend to get lucid more often, but have premature awakenings, too. I have set new intentions now, telling the body to sleep deeply and the mind to be wide awake as often as possible. My task is to experiment with different prolonging techniques the next weeks and heading for the Maui - experiment in mutual dreaming.

Hope this works for you and encourages you.

Yours Ralf

Hi - I agree with Ralf's advice which is reminiscent of a Tibetan dream yoga idea of focusing on a mental image, letting the image become very soft and gently glowing, and then allowing yourself to become that image.

I don't have a lot of experience with WILD but when I've done it, there has definitely been a moment of trusting and letting go. I might go right into a lucid dream with no break in continuity, I might sleep and dream later or dream and become lucid later, I might just sleep - I take a chance and see what happens.

It's fun. It's all fun. I think it's likely that delighting in whatever one gets, feeling happy about a vivid or interesting or well-recalled dream whether it's lucid or not, ultimately promotes lucidity. I can't squeeze the brain and make a lucid dream come out but pleasure in the whole process seems to lubricate the flow....

Enjoy, Joy

High, Joy

Thanks for pointing out fun and deLight again.

CU

Ralf

Ralf,

Thank you very much! But I think I will try the ND for I while.

In the last few days, I've decided I will try the NovaDreamer again. At the first night I had a short lucid dreams. The second night I didn't have, and at the third night I tried it (this now the morning of that night (Israel time)) I had about 3 lucid dreams. 2 of them a bit short, And altho I said to myself befor I sleep, that the first thing I will do is to stabalize the dream, The third dream was very very stable and long - I think about 20 minuets. I wasn't 100% lucid, but I was very close to that. Also - I've never had better sleep. I slept for about 7 hours, waking up at 5:30, then I put the ND on my head, and after 15 - 30 minuets, I fell aleep. I woke up automaticly at 8:30am. Usualy I have to wake up at 6:30 for school and I am tired like didn't sleep for a few days. When I woke up at 5:30 am I was almost fully awake!!!

I've got to say that this is great!

Sweet dreams, Guy, variety@lucid.co.il

Hi, fellow lucids. Guy - congratulations! I can identify with the feeling of "this is really great!" I'm so happy when I lucid dream, and I can't wait to write it down and share it, and get some comments. Maybe you should post on the "post your lucid dreams" site. There doesn't seem to be a lot of activity there lately, and I think it's inspiring for other aspiring dreamers when we post there. To Joy and Ralf - please note a post by me on the open conversation site which refrences your postings here. The above message sounds like an interoffice memo, doesn't it? What a fun office that would be! Maybe in our dreams. Keep dreaming, Kate

On-going program after completing Course In Lucid Dreaming? I'm not sure where to post this but am looking for advice on what to do after completing the course. I suspect that everyone's longterm program would be different but would be interested in some general advice on this.

My current program is: writing at least 1 dream a night out, Getting up for 30 min. after about 6 hrs. sleep & then going back for a few more hours of dreaming. Occasional RC's & some reading on LD. one or two RI exercises a day. I've found a fall off in LD's & don't know if its a dry spell for that I need to go back & put lots more energy & excercises into this. I've been working on this for over a year now and by last November had several LD in that month. Then letup and have had only one since. I'd be interested in what most modestly capable Lucid Dreamers do to to maintain their skills.

Hi, Ted. I'm also trying to find a plan that works. I was doing much better when I first started to induce ld's. I had 2 a week apart in Oct. without trying to, then got the novadreamer and went on the LI forum. I had an ld (a month after the first two)after reading a lot of postings on the forum. Then I had one 3 weeks later, then one 2 weeks after that. That was 12.3.02, and I haven't been lucid since. I come up with different theories about the lapse. My latest is that there's too much responsibility in my life. I need to make sure my weekends are relaxed and without a lot of todo's nagging at me - less sense of time being limited. More like a nice childhood, or a vacation. I also have a theory about fear on my part being in the way. Anyway, reading on the forum can provide a lot of ideas, stimulation and inspiration. Everyone seems to work out their own plan. Some people, mostly men, I noticed, seem to do very well with a consistent system of RC's. Seeing the concept that waking life is also a dream seems to be a good plan, too. Good luck, Kate

Dear Kate,

January was not such a good month for me. I had a lot of near misses though.

I'm afraid my RC of pressing my finger into an object has stopped working, well it only works if I really already know I am lucid, otherwise I meet resistance.

Regarding your dry spell, do you still make a big effort to remember your NLDs and wake yourself up a bit at night before falling back to sleep, might be difficult if you're tired out because of responsibilities.

Keeping a look out for dreamsigns during the day is difficult if you are very busy. I try to cut through the business and still do it. I do feel that the meditation I do now has helped with my general ability to work quite hard yet still do the tests.

best wishes,

Owen

Hi, Owen. Thanks for your comments and advice. It's nice to hear from you. Sorry to hear about your dry spell, and your RC not working for now. I still use it. I find it particularly useful if I'm walking along, because I can push the fingers of one hand into the palm of another. I can also use it when sitting at my computer at work, because I try to push through the screen. I guess the trick with any RC is, when doing them, to get into the mindset that we really might be dreaming. I think the longer the dry spell, the less easy this is. Yes, I do make an effort to recall my nld's, and this has been absorbing in itself. I've been using an herb that helps you recall your dreams, and it seems to be working excellently. In the am I lie still and recall the dreams as best I can, then I put them on the computer. I bought a scrapbook last night and I'm going to paste the dreams in. Mary suggested figuring out what the nouns in my dreams mean to me. I probably will highlight certain things and do my usual analytical stuff. For the right brain side, I'm going to decoupage the album cover with dream-like pictures. I would like to try waking myself up at night, but I can't figure how to do it without disturbing my husband. Maybe I could train myself to wake up. I did set my alarm and wake up a few times while my family was away over Christmas, without success. But most of my ld's have been while I was on the edge between worlds, as in the am, so I do think that method would be good for me. Instead of meditation, I often listen to a tape of shamanic drumming in bed before going to sleep. I always drift into something that way. I didn't mean to make muself sound as if all I do is work. And I'm lucky in that I enjoy my job and like most of the people there. Also we have a $1,000,000 view! Some of the sunsets are incredible, with very dreamworld-like clouds. It's just that when you work full-time and then have home maintenance duties as well, including chauferring a teen (and his friends)you end up with not enough free time. But If I could organize my time better, I would have more of it for myself. But compared to a lot of single parents and others, I have the liesure time of a queen. Anyway, thanks for reminding me about RC's and dremsigns during busy times such as being on the job. I'm really lax in that. Maybe I could tie them into phone work, since I do that so much.

Wishing you many lucids, and soon, Kate

Dear kate, It might seem a little odd, but it's always worked for me.If you want to wake up at say four a.m. just before you go to sleep, gently bang your head against your pillow four times, saying I'll wake up at four a.m. each time. Another trick is to drink a pint or two of water as late as possible, urgent early morning wake up garanteed.

Happy ld Rob

Hi, Rob. Thanks for the tips. The four bangs for 4 o'clock thing is certainly worth a try. I usually try and avoid the urgency thing, but that's an idea too. Happy and frequent ld's, Kate

Dear Kate, I learned how to awaken by deciding that if I didn't wakeup within a few minutes of my target time (ususally~4AM). If not I would not eat until lunch. Being fairly attached to food, it only took one time to learn this skill. I like breakfast you see. Ha Ha. The RC I have found usefull for some months now is an affirmation/visualization, "when I dream I fly, when I'm flying - I AM DREAMING!!" I broke out of my dry spell with a fun LD last night. Horay!

Ted

Hi, Ted. The idea of training one's mind through denial of something earthly is interesting. Very monk-like, in fact, and makes sense to me in terms of the spiritual nature, for some, of pursuing ld's. Could you elucidate about the affirmation/visualization? Also, any desire to share your dream on the post your ld's sight? And, congratulations! It seems that many people have found January to be a dry month, ld-wise. I may risk a small alarm clock under my pillow tonight. Wishing you many pleasant breakfasts during which you can review your ld's, Kate

Ted,

There is a passage (p. 113) in the Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep in which Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche talks about an experience familiar to me (and I think many others) that happens when we have to get up early for an important appointment. We keep waking up to check the clock. We need not be thinking strongly about the need to wake up; I even try to ignore this need because I have an alarm clock. Tenzin talks of this same light subtle focus on the Tibetan lucid dream visualisation of symbols for lucid dream induction.

The consequences of missing the appointment in the above can be seen as directly analagous to your unpleasant consequence of missing breakfast.

In ETWOLD when talking about MILD Stephen LaBerge contrasts non-effortful suggestion (which I take to be the same or similar to the above) with the effortful suggestion of MILD. Stephen made MILD very much more successful than what, apparently, can be achieved by non-effortful suggestion.

I have not had great success with MILD yet and I believe that my 2 or so LDs per week come via this non-effortful route.

It should work too! Now how can we train ourselves to wake up lucid in a dream, in the same way that we really do wake up even if trying to ignore the fear of missing an important appointment in the morning.

Maybe this can never be as successful as MILD but I think it is worth thinking about.

Owen

Dear Kate, I guess what I do is kind of combination of MILD and affirmation: while affirming "When I dream I fly" I try and relive one of my more favorite LD of flying with closed eyes & even moving my arms & really get into it. (flying is a fun & effective dreamsign for me) Then I affirm "When I'm flying -I AM DREAMING" I try and remember a moment of LD recognition that while flying that I was dreaming and try and really intend to have it happen. I'll go back and forth with these two. Then mentally review what I intend to do after I become Lucid.

Hi everyone,

This is my first post to the forum. I have, however, been browsing for a few weeks since I purchased a NovaDreamer. Overall, I am happy with the results so far, averaging one LD per week.

Something strange happened last night, however. I went lucid after noticing a dreamsign I had previously designated. This was the first time I had gone lucid as a result of this, every other time being after noticing something so strange, I realized.

Anyhow, I was lucid for about 90 seconds or so before getting woken by the NovaDreamer. During that time, I attempted to have dialog with a dream character, but had a very difficult time talking. I was just as aware as I've been in every other LD, and knew exactly what I wished to say, but had a very hard time getting the words out. Has anyone else experienced something like this? If so, what are some strategoes I can try to overcome this? Like I said, this was an isolated experience, and I'm hoping it stays so.

The other thing I'm having problems with is flying. I just can't seem to do it. I try jumping in the air, but it seems like gravity is working normally every time I try. I make a point to attempt this in every LD, and so far have been unsuccessful.

Thanks in advance for any tips you could provide.

Jeff