Josh/Jan:

I just re-read the last few posts, and realized two things ' first, that I missed your points completely (sorry!), and second, that this topic still has something to do with LD's, and even frustrations related directly to them.

Okay, so it is a stretch, but here's a thought: Jan, maybe you're putting too much credence in your colleagues" success in drawing buildings from memory. Perhaps it's not genius, like the excellent Mozart example, but more related to patience, and a solid confidence in results. There are certainly people who can create detailed images in their mind and draw them, but there are plenty more who can start with a blurry concept and, by confidently allowing that concept to flow line by line (not all at once) onto paper, they give the appearance of drawing an image directly from their imagination. I do this myself when sculpting or building uncomplicated bits of furniture, and often get totally unwarranted compliments for visualizing the object I made.

This ties in nicely with the frustrations of LD'ing, because it can be very easy to get caught up in the words involved in LD prep work while overlooking the meaning behind them. For instance, if you try to have a MILD simply by repeating a phrase about the dream you expect without translating those words into confident expectations, real thoughts, that transcend the words, you probably will only get a good night's sleep. So, that emotional image of the dream, whether you see anything or not, is key to becoming lucid, and to remaining focused when you're lucid. And for those of us who are inept at creating images, or even staying focused for more than three seconds at a clip, working an image into your mind piece by piece until it is real (even if still unseen), is a method for keeping up with the geniuses.

I'm not sure if this made sense, or if it has anything to do with what you guys were discussing, but at least we're talking about frustration again!

Reverie:

I agree that this topic (the one Jan, Joshua, and you were discussing, anyway!) invites so much more conversation and sharing of info, maybe under another subject. I look forward to seeing what you have to share.

Oh, and taking pride in not mentioning CC is certainly forgivable!

Peter

Hi All!

This is my first post... my name is Michael... I'm from Connecticut.

I have had 3 spontaneous LD's in the past several years. I have been following the course and sometimes using the NovaDreamer for the past 2 months.

Not much success yet, a couple of near catches... once I saw a big red flash in a dream that didn't make sense to me then, but I realized was obviously the ND when I awoke. A couple of days ago, I saw my reef aquarium in a dream, but it was much more elaborate and beautiful than in waking life, so I actually thought to myself in the dream, "Oh, this must be a dream." But, the magical spark of realization that happens with lucidy just didn't come.

I've been doing about 10 reality checks most days, Reflection/Intention, Autosuggestion, prospective memory exercises, and now trying more MILD.

Maybe this is a long-shot since it probably would have already been mentioned, but does anyone know any tricks to get some success?... I'm afraid it will be difficult to keep up my energy without seeing some results... That's why I've never been very good at religion. :-)

Peace, Michael

Michael,

It took me three months of hard work to have my first induced LD. That was nearly 3 years ago. Now I have quite a few LDs.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that you try the technique of waking yourself up completely after say 5 hours sleep and then letting your body relax while you do MILD or just think about the dream you've just had and the dream signs in it. But it took me 1-2 years before I appreciated that I'd improved my ability to relax my body.

It's hard work as is the state testing etc during the day. I'd aim for testing your state 15-20 times per day. And don't do the prospective memory exercises unless you are committed to doing that with a high level of intent.

You're only young, are you sure you want to spend your time doing this. Aren't there more important things to spend your time at at your age.

Owen

Michael, welcome! I'm always so happy to see someone come here with such genuine interest and enthusiasm.

Yes, I can understand how you might get discouraged if you don't see results right away, but I urge you not to give up. From your description, you're probably closer than you think you are!

As far as the NovaDreamer is concerned, I'm glad you have one. I wouldn't use it every single night" give yourself a break now and then so you don't start unintentionally getting annoyed with it. When you do use it, try different settings, different bedtimes, different wake-up times, afternoon naps, all kinds of different approaches. Your manual will give you ideas.

By all means, you should continue to read and re-read your copy of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. I have no idea how many times I've read it, but I wouldn't be without it. It's a treasure chest of advice and inspiration (by the man who wrote the book on the subject!) I also enjoy reading the original book that preceded it, Lucid Dreaming" it's the book that first introduced me to the subject, and it's also quite inspiring.

Being a member of this forum is something that can really help. Simply reading and posting here serves as a tool to focus your mind on the subject. Some people find that their chances of having a lucid dream increase when they start reading and participating here.

Sometimes if you try too hard, you can become frustrated. I don't like to see this happen, so one thing I try to remind people is to enjoy the process as much as they can. It may sound simplistic, but try to keep a positive attitude and enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

This notion of enjoying the journey can provide us with some good tools. Dreaming itself is really fascinating" this fact gives us a chance to re-think our strategies. Success is an important concept to most of us, so it's only natural to become concerned when we don't seem to be achieving our goals. And as you point out, not getting the desired results can be discouraging. One way around this is to set some other goals for yourself, some enjoyable and achievable ones. One little goal might be to keep a dream journal, or maybe to write out one long, highly detailed dream per week. Another might be to try one new variation to your approach per week. You are the best person to come up with something fun. Whatever it is, make sure it's not drudgery. These small successes'besides the techniques being specifically useful'will help you feel more confident.

Lucidity happens in many forms, from using many techniques, under a variety of conditions. Sometimes my own lucid dreams aren't much of anything" I know it's a dream, but there's nothing earth-shattering in either content or feeling. Other times, it's a stunning and truly memorable experience of vivid sensory realism and exciting content. Some lucid dreams last only a few seconds; others can be quite lengthy. They can't all be the Dream-to-End-All-Dreams-and-Solve-the-Mysteries-of-Life. But I appreciate them all for the fascinating events they are.

By the way, when I first became good at lucid dreaming, I think I got a little off-track by worrying more about their frequency than anything else" like I was working on my batting average or something. My dreams actually became somewhat less interesting when I had that attitude, and didn't get more interesting again until I began to re-focus on finding joy and inspiration in my daily life activities. It's ironic, but sometimes trying a little less hard can help you" when you focus on those things in life that fascinate you and give you a sense of accomplishment, your dreams can become more inspired and inspiring.

Anyway, I hope this helps a little. I get pretty excited about the subject, so forgive me if I've tried to solve the whole situation with a single Forum posting, which is impossible.

Welcome aboard" feel free to wander around, and do keep us posted. It's great to have you here!

Sincerely, Reverie

Hi Michael,

Welcome to the Forum! And take heart, dear dreamer, you are on your way. However, tried and true techniques will serve you much better than any "tricks" for achieving lucidity. The Nap Technique (as Owen suggests) is an excellent one -- especially when combined with the NovaDreamer. And if you really want to catch those NoveDreamer cues while they're happening, be diligent about doing the daytime exercises for increasing your awareness of lights.

Along with the type of encouraging/rewarding goals suggested by Reverie, it's also advisable to prepare for your next lucid dream before it happens -- and you know it will. You may see that fantastic dream aquarium again sooner than you think! What will you do? Having a goal in mind of what you want to do with your next opportunity will help set your intention and prolong the dream by keeping you engaged in it.

And finally, the article below (posted on the Forum recently, under another topic) offers excellent advice regarding the value of each dream experience. The right attitude and approaches will take you where you want to go.

Bright dreams! Keelin

USING MISSED DREAMSIGNS AS STEPPING STONES TO LUCIDITY

How to Set your Mind to Learn to Recognize Dreamsigns By Stephen LaBerge

Having a lucid dream requires, by definition, knowing that you are dreaming. If there were no differences between dreaming and waking life, there would be no way to know that you were experiencing one state and not the other. Fortunately, there are characteristic differences between the two states that allow you to know whether or not you are dreaming. In other words, there are features that make dreams "dreamlike." Learning to recognize these distinctive features, typically termed "dreamsigns," is one of the most basic and powerful methods of inducing lucid dreams.

Examples of dreamsigns include: miraculous flight, changing writing, malfunctioning devices, and meeting deceased people. By studying your dreams you can become familiar with your own personal dreamsigns and set your mind to recognize them and become lucid in future dreams.

The cultivation of dreamsign awareness as a method for learning lucid dreaming is described in full detail in EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING, and A COURSE IN LUCID DREAMING. The Course also provides exercises for noticing dreamsigns while you are awake, so that the skill carries over into your dreams. This exercise also applies to lucid dream induction devices, which give sensory cues--special, artificially-produced dreamsigns--while you are dreaming. To succeed at recognizing these cues in dreams, you need to practice looking for them and recognizing them while you are awake.

Most dreams you recall will contain at least one, but more likely several dreamsigns. Until you have developed at least a moderate degree of lucidity, you will almost never recognize these dream oddities for what they are, and this leads to a pitfall which can block progress until it is understood and corrected: the mistake (common among novice lucid dreamers) is to focus on how uncritical their minds are during dreaming, using each missed dreamsign as another example proving that they "never recognize dreamsigns". This is a mistake! If you do that, you use missed dreamsigns to learn that you're too unreflective, stupid, or whatever to become lucid. This isn't what you want to learn, is it?

What you want to learn is how to recognize when you're dreaming by getting to know your dreamsigns. Thus you should make sure that you reflect on which parts of your dream could have told you that you were dreaming, and resolve that the next time something like that dreamsign reoccurs, you will remember that you are dreaming! So, if you wake from a dream in which you fail to notice that the friend you were talking to has been dead for years, you firmly resolve that if you ever see that person again you will realize that you're dreaming. Furthermore, resolve that you will see your friend again, and that the next time you do, you will become lucid.

Missed dreamsigns are stepping stones across the river of forgetfulness to lucidity. But only if you use them as such; only if you decide with complete conviction that you won't get fooled again. Of course, you will. To err is human, but why not learn to err less and less?

Owen,

I'm interested by your comment that there might be more important things to do at my age" I'm not sure if it's just a joke, but I do think that LD'ing has profound potential for spiritual, practical, and entertainment value at any age. Examples: Spiritual ' A completely safe way to experience an altered form of consciousness as an active participant. I think that materialism and other ills are partially due to people being stuck in one mode of consciousness all of the time. Practical ' If it works, I intend to confront anxieties, fears, and rehearse positive goals in my LD's. I think it will be valuable for many things I do in life. Entertainment ' Well, with practice you can pretty much do and experience whatever you want, right? Does entertainment get better than that!? And, thanks for your encouragement to keep going; I guess it can take awhile. And I've upped my RC's to about 15+' the more the merrier!

Reverie,

Thanks!! I think I have really been enjoying the process of working towards LD'ing, but forgot to notice because of my focus on end-result (batting average!! LOL). You helped me to focus on enjoying the process more now, thanks!!

Keelin,

Thanks for the suggestions and the article" very timely and helpful for me, because I had another near miss on a dreamsign this weekend" I was actually flying/swimming around in the air, thought, "This is strange, maybe it's a dream'' Thought about in for a few seconds and somehow figured, "nah, this is normal.' I was beating myself up a little, but Dr. LaBerge's passage is good to remind us to use these kind of things as positive learning experiences. I'm trying now to be more cautious in my RC's not to dismiss the possibility of a dream without very careful checking!!

Thanks all! I'll keep working/playing/experimenting with it, and keep you posted. Happy dreams!!

Peace, Michael

Hey Jan- I loved your post about those Swedish families all having flying andsexual dreams when they used the painkiller! :-)

I must say, if they had been truly lucid it might have been better for them, because then they would have known they were dreaming, etc., and not actually flying.

As for off-topic, this thread has shifted into a new emphasis and will need to be moved anyway... such is the way of dreams and Forum conversations!

I enjoyed your post.

back to bed for a morning nap, Reverie

Michael,

For me, trying hard to have a LD is a sure way to sabotage myself. I think the more time one spends during the day just thinking about dreaming, the more likely one is to realize lucidity during a dream. Just let it happen; it will if you let it. Try not to get frustrated or anxious. Do what you can to think about dreaming while you're awake. Keep a dream journal. When you do become lucid (and you will) take it slowly. Just wander through your dream. Experience it. There will be time for all the fancy techniques later.

The one thing I want to try the next time I become lucid is to say, out loud, that I am having a dream. I want to reinforce to myself that I am in a dream, that I realize it, and that it's okay to do so. I tried spinning and other things when I first became lucid. I think that just increased my anxiety. What I want to do is reinforce to myself that it's okay to be lucid, and just let things happen naturally.

Pleasant dreams!

-John

Hello,

When I apply myself I find that I usually achieve 3-4 short LDs a month. Recently I have noticed the Loki like nature of achieving Lucidity, Techniques that once worked starting to become less effective, False positive on my Reality tests, etc.

I'm curious to hear if this "trickster" quality that I see referenced in other posts is ever overcome "for good" i.e. Easy lucidity. Or if It will always take more work to maintain the same level of success. Any thoughts?

Feel free to direct me to other threads- I havn't looked for my question in the archives.

Cheers, Msears

Prolonging lucidity successes and frustrations...

Recently I have been putting more effort into "Prolonging Lucidity" using the spinning and falling backwards method.

After some baby steps forward I wanted to share a recent setback.

Last night I was disturbed while dreaming, when I went back to sleep my dream self had a vague memory of having been disturbed; this triggered lucidity. As I became excited about my achievement the environment quickly started to fade. I tried falling backwards, letting my body go limp and closing my eyes, I instinctively put my arms back to break my fall and felt turf/lawn in my hands. The dreamscape seemed to stabilize as I accepted the realism and texture of the grass in my hands. I felt that holding on to the grass would help me prolong the dream. I was happy to find myself in the same setting with the same characters, but this time I crawled around on the ground.

Crawling was a first for me, more often than not I tend to leave the ground while lucid. As I became more involved with the dream characters the scene started to fade again. I wanted to try to prolong the dream again, but holding on to the grass conflicted with my attempts to spin or fall backwards. I woke up rather frustrated, it seems that a number of the tools I use to achieve or maintain lucidity start to get in my way after only a few successes.

-Msears

First, a warm welcome to all our new members here on the Forum!

Michael: Ah! You had the answer right in the palm of your hand -- your dream hand, that is. ;) Look what happened when you focused on the vivid texture of the grass and think about why this works. Remember that your brain is only going to entertain one mental model at a time, so a lot depends on where you place your focus and efforts. "Uh oh, this isn't working and I'm afraid I'm going to wake up!" isn't where you want to put your attention. Understanding the reasoning behind the techniques will help free you up to creatively adapt them to your current situation. Think about other actions you could have taken -- and even more importantly, what you will do next time. By the way, have you tried the hand-rubbing technique yet?

Spinning in infinity, Keelin

Thanks for the welcoming, Keelin!

I'm very motivated to have LD:s and develop my LD skills. I do reality checks as often as I remember every day. I have bought a NovaDreamer, and a minidisc recorder for effortless recording of my NLDs.

My problem is, for some weird reason, I seem to become a DIFFERENT PERSON at two certain crucial moments:

1. As soon as I get lucid, I immedietely want to wake up, so I wake up. Not only part of me, but all of me, wants back to normal, waking consciousness. This baffles me afterwards. It's not that I want the LD to go on and fail. I simple don't want it to, when I'm there! Why doesn't the very LD motivate me? With beginners like me, it's supposed the other way around, right? - that once lucid, you want to stay lucid so badly that you try hard not to wake up, and wake up because you try hard not to. Whereas I consciously and deliberately try to wake up. And succeed with no effort, of course. And regret it afterwards, when I realise I was being stupid dumping another LD opportunity.

And when I don't immediately want to quit the LD, I have another problem: Although having planned some heavenly activities that I would like to try in a LD, once lucid I can't think of a single thing to do! I become totally void of creativity as well as of memory. I try to think something out, but with no result. This makes me restless, and I wake up. In my daylife and in my NLDs (that I can remember), I can always think of something to do, so not being able to do that is an extremely uncommon situation to me.

2. Right after waking up and remembering a NLD, I always feel too tired (/too comfy) to record it, so it doesn't happen - although I know very well that recording NLDs is essential for good dream recall, which is essential for improving LD skill. Not recording my NLD:s is of course something I regret later, too.

Ask me any time when I'm awake, and I'll assure you I very much want to learn to have frequent, long, wonderful LD:s, and that I intend to do the work it requires, all the way. But my longing for LDs, which motivates me, is suddenly mysteriously gone at the two crucial moments I mentioned. It's as if I temporarily turn into another person, with other preferences. How can I remain myself and continue wanting lucidity also at these crucial moments?

Grateful for advice!

Par

My LD frequency is steadily declining in recent weeks. I'm trying to keep a lighthearted attitude about it, but some frustration is creeping in. It's not for lack of interest. Here, I think are some possible contributors:

1. I don't dream journal as often as I used to.
2. I don't feel like sleeping in on weekends to stimulate WILDs. (This, I think, is seasonal).
3. I am under a lot of life stress at the moment.
4. My ordinary dreams are more anxiety provoking now, and because I get emotionally caught up in them I lose the critical faculty.
5. I have developed some back problems that make sleeping comfortably a challenge.

I'm sure one or more of these is blocking me. I'd be interested in other opinions.

-Paul

Paul:

Sure enough, any one of those items listed could hamper lucidity. All five together? You should pat yourself on the back for having an LD frequency at all, regardless of its decline!

You might try fixing the things you can - get back on the dream journal, convince yourself that sleeping in on the weekends isn't such a bad thing, maybe work on your back troubles (or at least seek a sleep position/support that keeps the pain from interfering), and hope that the stress passes.

OR,

You could just spend a couple of weeks at Kalani Dreamcamp, where you'll have an excellent chance of peacfully recharging your lucidity batteries! ;)

Peter

Peter: Fortunately, Paul is coming to the retreat -- where we should be able to eliminate all of his current frustrations! ;)

And Paul: Let me assure you that:

1. You'll find keeping a daily journal an easy essential as you'll want to share all those dreamsign-laden nightly adventures with us during the morning session, or -- as Peter may recall -- at the breakfast gathering, where you'll find a table full of animated oneironauts freshly hatched from their vivid dreamworlds.

2. The "Morning Nap Technique" is actually part of the schedule -- simply because it has been proven to be so highly effective.

3. Hawaii is, quite naturally, a stress-free zone.

4. You will learn to welcome those anxiety dreams for the reliable dreamsigns they offer -- which will lead to lucidity!

5. Our evening seance in the hot spring pool 'neath that old Hawaiian moon will do wonders for your back.

Aloha dreams, Keelin

Dear Pär,

I) Regarding the first situation you've described: Have you tried choosing a goal that can only be accomplished in a lucid dream? And when you do your reality checks, are you following through with imagining yourself engaged in the activity you wish to pursue in your next lucid dream? This is an important part of preparing the mind for lucid dreaming occasions. If you want to improve your navigational skills, it is not enough to simply determine which state you are in. It is essential to rehearse what you'll do with the next opportunity! Also, although it may be tempting to have a long list of desired dream activities to pursue, you might want to focus on just one, so it will be easier to recall at the thrilling moment of lucidity onset.

2. As for feeling too tired/comfy to record your lucid dreams, I can identify with that! It is so tempting to linger there undisturbed. What you might try is noting just a word or two, or a quick sketch that you can later fill in with details. Or, as Wendy Lee recently suggested, try a morning dream-haiku. In her post, Wendy writes: "Have found that writing morning dream-haiku .... is useful as easily accessible, expressive tool...then dream consciousness is already there for a record later, as well as useful for further inspiration."

Hope these thoughts are helpful for you, Pär.

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin

PS: Wendy: Thanks for sharing your idea with us. Perhaps you'd like to post a sample of your morning haiku poetry?

One thing I found that helps to make my dream journal entries is to have a tape recorder at my bedside. Not only can I give more information in the short period of time the dream is fresh but I find that talking about the dream brings out details that I probably wouldn't have written down. When I'm done I listen to the tape and write the entry in my journal. Of course, if your sleeping with someone and you want to keep your dreams private then this might be a problem. :-)

Thanks for the support, guys and gals. I can already smell the fresh coconut milk and hear the crashing of the Puna surf. Or maybe I'm dreaming...

-Paul

Hi Guys,

I think I remember reading, on this sight, a qoute from a Sufi (cant remember which one) that went, "everyone should learn this skill". He was responding to a questioner who'd asked what he thought about the ability to be awake whilst dreaming.

I also think I remember reading elsewhere that what a sufi says applies only to a particular time place and people. (as well as other warnings against dabbling in the esoteric without qualified guidance)

These concepts have helped me to create an anxiety about learning lucid dreaming.

For I know that it is possible (having had three fleeting experiences of conciousness in my dreams) Yet emotionally I am unable to commite either to the idea that lucid dreaming is prehaps a warranted ordinary psychological evolution of an individuals mind, or whether it is a pontentlly damaging misuse of a function of the mind that primarily exists for a different unknown purpose.

The resulting knot in my stomach and doubt in my mind surely influences my ability?

In addition I exam the thoughts described above and wonder whether they are craven attention seeking from an authority figure who'll reassure me and give me "permission" to indulge in a skill that is very appealing.

This leads to further procastination, along the lines of, should I therefore reveal my concerns? Should I put up and shut up? Should I this, Should I that...

It goes on and on, I have created a mental knot that has frozen me to the spot.

Any thoughts?

Good luck tonight.

Rob

Rob,

I heard a wise man say, "Don't 'should' on yourself!" Seems appropriate here.

And although nobody needs it, if it helps, you have my permission to dream lucidly.

Lucid dreaming is all about being more aware in life, both asleep and awake. How can that be harmful?

Thanks for sharing your concerns. That's what the forum is for.

Paul

Thanks Paul,

I suppose that how it may be harmfull will remain a matter of speculation.

But a friend of mine once said that if you use a tool such as a wood chisel on a steel surface you will blunt and damage it.

What if dreaming lucidly is a tool specifically created for "esoteric" pursuit and if used otherwise it gets blunted, damaged?

Rob

Rob:

You are absolutely correct ' the resulting knot in your stomach and doubt in your mind will surely influence your ability to lucid dream, negatively. Knots are curious things, especially after you've laced one into a complex enough tangle that it appears that untying it is not an option. This is because in the end they are very weak security devices, often defeated with the slice of a knife or a sharp-witted decision.

Here are a few truly non-authoritarian thoughts:

· By all existing measures LD'ing is harmless. Your chisel analogy makes a good point, except that the only way to learn the nature of LD'ing as a tool is to learn how to lucid dream in the first place, isn't it? If you never hold the chisel, how will you know it won't work on steel? By extension, if you use a wood chisel on steel, you will realize fairly quickly that it will not work ' to blunt it would require a decision, after the realization that you've got the wrong tool, to continue pounding.

· Since lucid dreams exist in nature, is learning to experience them frequently, even at will, really a misuse of the dreaming function, or simply an enhancement of a function we all enjoy?

· It's probably a good thing that you revealed your concerns in this forum; I'm guessing you'll get a lot of support toward continuing, both from us regular folks and perhaps an authority or two.

· The Sufi was right ' everyone should learn this skill. You might forget that it was a Sufi that said so, and just go with your instincts about the skill itself. In my mind he was just stating the obvious anyway, regardless of the context.

· Humans aren't by nature supposed to fly, either. Should we cease stepping on planes, too? A trite example, I know, but it does still illustrate that we may, by nature, be compelled to push our experience beyond the basic program offered by our DNA.

· Finally, procrastination is always easier than doing, but it uses up a whole lot more time and you get nothing for your "effort" save regrets. So don't look for excuses to procrastinate! Look instead for ways to work on the knots and defrost your resolve.

The best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter,

Personally, I think dreaming without lucidity is the real misuse of the tool.

Paul

Paul:

Excellent point!

Thanks Peter, much food for thought in your post.

Rob

Hi this is my very first time on the discussion board and just wanted to say hello to you all. I've been watching quietly in the background for a while and reading the recent threads with interest.

I've actually only had three lucid dreams so far (well, three that I can remember anyway! Sorry Keelin, my profile lies, that says I have five a month!). My first one was way back in November so I guess I could call myself a frustrated LD'r! My last one was a couple of months ago. I've had plenty of near misses though and a handful of sleep paralysis experiences which strangely I could never recall having until I came to know what they are!

I'm on a roll at the moment in being able to recall at least one dream a night for the last six nights so I'm hoping to pick up on a few dreamsigns and focus on them to help me into achieving lucidity. I might also blow the dust off the NovaDreamer and have another go with that.

I couldn't believe how stupid I was the first time I used it. I was dreaming that I was wearing the mask but I could still see! The mask flashed big bright red lights at me, everyone in the dream looked at me and I was embarrassed, I apologized for distracting them and carried on dreaming non lucidly!! LOL. Ever since I have either not recognized the cues or simply woken up from the flashing!

I'm working in the Iranian Persian Gulf at the moment and it's very hot. We have to have an afternoon siesta of 2.5 hour duration. Lucky me, a golden chance for improving my lucid dreaming skills! So wish me luck and any advice or words of encouragement will be warmly welcomed!

Philip:

Thanks for joining us at last! Your experience with the ND might more mean that you were "right there" than it does indicate failure. I'm sure many ND users regularly miss the ND cues without any recognition at all. The key is to acknowledge the next day that you missed the cue, but be delighted that the cue worked, and that your mind registered it so colorfully. Be positive, and the negative results can be converted to effective stepping stones to consistent lucid dreams.

I hope your siestas work well for you, and that you keep us informed of your progress.

Peter

Philip,hi! Welcome!

As I have been recently reminded in similar circumstances, NEVER...NEVER...NEVER beat yourself up for missing a dreamsign!

Instead, say to yourself, "The NEXT time I see this, I WILL remember to realize that I am dreaming!"

As Peter says, keep it positive.

Good luck!

Paul

Phillip:

Enjoy the sea snakes, sharks, sandstorms, & humidity while floating around out there in the Gulf. I did my time out there too.

You're right. You've got a golden opportunity to LD. I think the whole area is something out of a Salvador Dali painting. Should be very conducive.

Paul

Hi Philip,

Rather than changing your profile to reflect a more accurate account of lucid dreaming frequency, let's wait a little while. Maybe the number you quoted will turn out to be too low. ;)

Welcome to the Forum! Keelin

Hi guys,

I would like first of all to thank you all for your words of advice and encouragement.

I have not had LDs so far in the last week but I'm pleased with my progress of recalling dreams. With the exception of the last two nights (where I recalled just a fragment of a dream in each) I have managed to recall 2 to 3 dreams a night in reasonable detail for the last 9 nights which is the best I've ever done since I started on my dream adventures a little over a year ago.

As for the afternoon siestas, I'm still adjusting to getting used to sleeping. At first I found I didn't feel tired enough to sleep but the last couple of days I've managed to get some reasonable sleep. As for recalling dreams, I'm sensing they are rather more thought orientated and non-visual and I don't recollect what I was thinking. We shall see how it develops. I've noticed that when I try some deep breathing exercises just before I go to sleep that it actually helps me to relax more quickly and fall asleep. If I keep that up both at night and in the afternoons I wonder if it will help me in my ability to dream and recall?

Last night I was listening to a song called F.E.A.R. by Ian Brown. It inspired me think of what I could do with the letters D.R.E.A.M.S. How about" Daily Revelations Enhancing Awareness of Mind & Spirit.

To end on a positive note, you're absolutely right Keelin! I expect I will need to change it in a while in the upward direction!

Phil.

Phil

If deep breathing helps you to relax and fall asleep, you might get into any of a number of tapes and CD's that have progressive relaxation programs for use at bedtime. They really help me nod off! Kelly Howell has made a good one, called "Deep Relaxation". There's a "Sound Sleep" CD from the Monroe Institute that really puts me out fast. Check the net.

Paul

Hello Friends!

Since I've been working on dream recall, RC's, RI's, etc. for more than 6 months without much success, I'm looking for some variety or new things to try. It seems as though most techniques that are discussed focus on MILD and DILD's... I'm wondering if I should try a concerted go at a WILD technique. Does anyone have suggestions as to which WILD technique is your favorite, and how to go about practicing and devoloping it?? Thanks!!! Michael

Aloha, Thea here. I've had trouble with LD's, mainly because of life stress. However, I haven't lost lucidity altogether. Sometimes I'm lucid for a few seconds during a dream, but I keep losing it. This has strengthened my commitment to dream journalling and compiling a list of dreamsigns. Hopefully, that will do the trick. Keelin, love that yummy description of the Kalani dream camp. After one heavenly experience there, just hearing your description of it to Rob made me just about slaver at the mouth. Wish I had the money to come to the next one, but I'll be there when you least expect it. In fact, you might even have to do a state test. Thea

I have been having lucid dreams on and off every few weeks lately, sometimes in series as false awakenings. Sometimes I think that I have finally got the hang of it, other times they ellude me, and I am amazed at how easily I can miss such obvious dreamsigns.

What I fail to achieve lately are highly realistic vibrant LD's that really make me feel like it's happening for real. I tend to get a more washed out version, where I know full well that I am dreaming.

This has not stopped me experimenting a little however. Some things I can do with little effort, other things are very difficult.

Some things I have tried lately (most of the ideas have come from this forum):

Flying back to the house, to go in through the bedroom window, find myself sleeping in bed and try to wake myself up.

Speaking to myself aloud and saying may name repeatedly - It took a lot of effort to form the words, they sounded funny, kind of garbled, but mildly recognisable. The words still made sense to me though.

Spinning - proves very difficult, just can't get up any speed, its like something is dragging on me.

I cannot pass through solid objects intentionally, this is quite irritating.

Lately I have been trying very hard not to get too excited, and try to do too much too soon, something which always causes my LD's to fade.

I would have posted sooner, but have not had any dreams that seem particulalry notible.

Cheers Geoff.

Geoff:

I never was much of a spinner myself!

I did get one thought from your post (which is pretty good for me these days): The trouble you have going through solid objects could be related to your interest in feeling like "it's really happening." A major facet of lucidity is the conscious understanding that a dream is not really happening.

Difficulty passing through solid objects usually rests in a dreamer's inadvertent (though perfectly natural) belief that the objects in dreams are made of the same stuff as they are in reality. During a dream, it can take some serious self-control to convince yourself that that wall over there is simply an image, created by not by masons with brick and mortar, but by your own imagination. Once you know it is an image, and not a wall, you can pass through it with ease ' literally without even thinking about it!

I may have misconstrued your meaning, but if your goal is to have lucid dreams that feel like they are really happening, you might be shooting yourself in the foot. Lucid dreaming is all about defying the natural mechanisms that convince us that a dream is real. To attach reality ' even perceived reality ' to a lucid dream is to threaten the very discipline you showed in noticing you were dreaming in the first place. A little "washing out" of dream imagery might not be such a bad thing initially, and in time you could learn to color your dream world with intensely unreal imagery of your own conscious manufacture!

So, maybe you should lower your expectations that your dreams seem real. Such a decision might be more encouraging for you, and it might also give you a chance to better appreciate your obvious successes in lucidity.

Toward Totally Unreal Dreams,

Peter

P.S. I also suggest that you make touching walls a reality check. Sounds odd, I know, but it might get you in the right frame of mind when confronting a wall in a dream.

I have a problem that is opposite of Geoff's when LDing. Sometimes I have had trouble passing through open windows and doors. It seems they start moving on me and I can even get stuck (not for long thankfully). This doesn't happen all the time but it is annoying. Do you think being very aware when walking through a doorway may help in my case? Any other suggestions?

I have some good news to report - my lucid dreams have increased in frequency and vividness since I have joined this forum I've even started to have them during daytime naps. Just reading messages and thinking about LDs seems to really have helped. Thanks everyone!

Blue Topaz

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply, which I find interesting and encouraging.

I take your point, that it is a mistake to attach reality to lucid dreams, and that this could well account for my trouble passing through solid objects.

Though I would like my dreams to be more convincing, and less phoney looking; I guess you are right in saying, that this is what gives the dream away; i.e. It lets me know I am in fact dreaming.

To use your own words, I guess it is my goal to: "learn to color my dream world with intensely unreal imagery of my own conscious manufacture!"

Perhaps I need to learn to relax in the dream and allow my creative imagery to flow more freely. I guess my mood is a little tense, I feel rushed because I want to explore the dream, before it begins to fade.

I keep telling myself I am dreaming, I rub my hands, but my hands don't always feel very solid, and the scenery can look a bit sketchy, which I find disapointing.

It's difficult to finding metaphores to describe the dream experience, but I think you get the picture.

Cheers Geoff.

Topaz:

It's a good thing we don't interpret dreams on this site, else someone might wonder why otherwise open doors and windows won't allow you to pass! ;)

But seriously, your difficulty might be similar to Geoff's in that you're lending too much credence to the existence of the doors and windows. While lucid, you might even be considering them a barrier, rather than a passage, to change in the dream (or, conversely, a threat of change in the dream, with which your unconscious might have a problem).

If you remember that these openings aren't really openings but rather images produced by your dreaming mind, and avoid concern about what lies beyond them, they might have a better tendency to allow your passage. And yes, getting in the habit of doing reality checks while passing through doorways could help (you might consider some serious reality-checking while passing through windows, though!).

Peter

P.S. Glad to hear that the forum has improved your LD's!

Peter:

Thanks for the reply and the advice. I have read various dream interpretation books and I've found them intersting and often helpful.

Yes, I do tend to see doors and windows in my dreams as a barrier or a threat and when I see them I tend to avoid them in fear of getting stuck. The next time I see one I shall remind myself that it's a creation of my dreaming mind; I'm sure that this will help.

I'll try to do the reality-door check several times today. I think I shall have to settle for just sticking my head in and out of the windows though!

Participating in this forum is really helping my LDs - I had another one last night

Blue Topaz

Hi Geoff,

You said that one of your lucid dream experiments include "Flying back to the house, to go in through the bedroom window, find myself sleeping in bed and try to wake myself up."

I like this and I'm going to try it myself. Is this one of the activities you find easy or difficult?

Rich M.

Following the above conversation I'd like to report that the most effective reality test for me is to press my finger into a solid object. If it enters, I know I am dreaming. I've practiced this a lot and now do it in just about every LD.

I've been doing this test for a couple of years and its effectiveness has actually increased. I can say that my brain has not found ways to trick me out of it.

Curiously the test also works pretty well in those dreams where I'm convinced I'm awake and might normally rationalise say changing writing. I'm so surprised when my finger enters a table or wall and I realise that it's actually a dream.

Regarding spinning, I still do this a lot but prefer now fall to the ground (if I have a dream body there is almost always a ground) and roll over and over feeling the ground on my body. I might also shout or sing while doing this. Usually I come out into a really solid LD.

Owen

Owen,

Spinning works well for me in most cases, so long as I relax and don't force it. The problem I see with falling to the ground is that if you loose the dream environment and are existing in what I call the 'black void', I don't see how you have any choice but to rotate.

Rich M.

Owen:

I've made a habit of testing solid objects with my finger as a reality test as well. And, though I agree that it works quite well (for the reasons you mentioned), I must admit that some care must be exercised when performing it in waking life (especially in public)!

Peter

Hi Rich,

Re the experiment below, i.e.

"Flying back to the house, to go in through the bedroom window, find myself sleeping in bed and try to wake myself up."

This proved really easy. I was a little startled however, when I found myself lying there in bed though. I guess I shouldn't have been suprised, as this is what I wanted to achieve after all. I agree it is a good experiment, quite an interesting one, especially if you can interact in some way with the sleeping version of your ego. I didn't actually manage to wake my dreeming ego, though I did try.

Cheers Geoff.

Hi Geoff and Rich, et al.,

Your dream goals remind me of a lucid occasion years ago in which I found my adult-self reflected as my child-self in a mirror. We reached towards each other in perfect synchronicity and then the child stepped out to join the adult. There was no conversation, just a gentle sense of mutual recognition. Of course, both of these "characters" were really dreamed versions of the Dreamer. And who might she be??

Do either of you have a specific question or activity in mind for your next self-encounter in Dreamland?

Thanksfor sharing your adventures here on the Forum -- and please do keep us posted! ;)

Bright dreams to all, Keelin, et al.

Hi Keelin,

My next planned activity will be to carefully examine the scene around me, to methodically remind myself that it is all an illusion. To poke and prod, and to attempt to pass through a solid object or two.

I also need to practice building up the detail of the dream imagery, to intensify it when it is all washed out.

I also want to see just how long I can remain lucid by staying calm but focussed.

Any ideas how to improve my chances of achieving this?

Cheers Geoff.

Hi Geoff,

What I would suggest is to try to keep a playful attitude of childlike curiosity when exploring the dreamscape--a sort of "What if..." approach. And when the scene starts greying out, anything you can do to stay actively engaged with the remaining elements at hand should help re-solidify it. Poking and prodding may be just the ticket. ;)

Enjoy the funhouse! Keelin

Hi all,

I had a lucid dream last night. I just knew I was dreaming, it seemed so obvious. I allowed myself to drop to the floor face first. I just passed through the floor and appeared in a different scene.

The imagery seemed very grey scale. I didn't let if bother me too much though. I had to work hard at staying calm, I felt compelled to do something interesting. Instead I tried to go with the flow and started flying. I seemed to have an irrational fear of flying more than a few feet off the ground. I decided I wanted to fly very high up, but was sure I would be scared, so instead I flew up using a rope as a guide. The rope was secured to the top of a very high building. I didn't make it very far up before I decended back to the ground.

I then started concentrating on the dream scene, trying to make it more colourful and detailed, I pictured the scene of a pool in my hand, with a ripple spreading from the center. The colours intensified, and suddenly the image shattered like shards of glass all around me. The original grey scene remained.

I started walking and rubbing my hands to keep lucid. I came upon some people and started to talk to them, they didn't reply. I got them to stop and listen to me. I became excited and awoke, although I recognised it as false awakening. I let myself fall to the floor again, and returned to a similar scene as the first. I continued walking, trying to prolong the dream as much as possible. This seemed reasonably successful for a while, but as always I eventually found something too exciting and woke up for real.

Cheers Geoff.

Geoff,

Great job of sustaining lucidity in my opinion. You should be proud! I admire your ability to stay with it for so long despite the unobrusive mistakes and the false awakening. It sounds to me like your one your way to stabilizing things in the lucid dream state. Keep up the good work.

Rich M.