Also to add to your list PJ, apparently the riff to Satisfaction came to Keef in a dream as well.

Quote from: Baphomet on June 10, 2009, 10:42:14 PMAlong the lines of writing songs in dreams, I've had a few experiences like that. A couple of the most interesting ones were 'written' in someone else's voice. In one I was walking through a creepy abandoned hospital and a nonexistent Tom Waits song was playing over the PA. Perfectly Tom Waits to a T. Another was a song 'written' by a band mate that was perfectly him to a T also. I don't know that I could do that deliberately.

I've heard what I thought were original tunes before, but unfortunately I can't write music, so I'll never know.  I did remember the lyrics, which were not so good.

Any music composed needs to be brought out of the dream!  Anybody who can write music should always try to do it when they wake up.  You might be missing the next "Yesterday" or "Satisfaction".

I do my best, believe me. It was a supreme test of my willpower to recall the whole dream with my friends song, but there was no way I was going to let it slip away.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 09, 2009, 05:46:33 AMQuote from: Alex Lou on June 08, 2009, 11:59:05 PMI'd add to the example of remembered music with remembered visuals.  My dreams seem to indicate that I am capable of photographic memory that I can't access while awake.  Details of my waking surroundings are clearer in my dreams than my waking memory can supply.  Yes, I'm sure; I stare at these things in awe in my lucid dreams.  Same is true with memories of my long dead dog. Yes, I see what you mean.  I guess the only problem I have with that is how do we know we've got it right?  It seems right in the dream, I know; I think I am hearing completely accurate music with all the instruments, but it's not something I can demonstrate afterwards. In my case, I know it to be true.  Days afterward I may not be able to remember it exactly, but in my highest cognitive lucids it's like I am conscious and I question what I'm seeing in real time.  And afterwords I remember.  Especially the music.  I had a dream with intense music recently and remembered it well enough after waking that I started searching for it on you tube, wondering if it was real.  It stuck with me for about a half hour.

I do question and I keep questioning.  I'm just that kind of skeptic.  And after a while, as the first-hand memory fades, I would probably dismiss it, but it keeps happening.  It's much more impressive and interesting than all this paranormal stuff if you ask me.

What paranormal stuff, Alex Lou?

Quote from: Baphomet on June 11, 2009, 04:18:18 AMWhat paranormal stuff, Alex Lou? Precognitive dreams.

Quote from: Alex Lou on June 11, 2009, 03:13:32 AMI do question and I keep questioning.  I'm just that kind of skeptic.  And after a while, as the first-hand memory fades, I would probably dismiss it, but it keeps happening.  It's much more impressive and interesting than all this paranormal stuff if you ask me.

I guess I need to try and incubate something like that, and pay particular attention to the details and see if it would work for me.

Just came across this recent video/article from fox 8 news and thought I'd post it here for further examination

EDIT: and a 2nd segment on the same case with an alternative skeptic's view from a professor in buffalo who investigates such "claims", to be fair

Hmmm, I really do feel like we've had this topic elsewhere before... I'm not certain if on MM or elsewhere....

Most evidence I've found are through pre-cognitive dreams.

Hm, I once used a lucid to solve a math problem I had been studying for, just couldn't solve it in waking, finally in the dream came with a formula that didn't even exist, but it worked lol Wonder if that is the kind of thing you were looking for.

I think that is an example of the subconscious working, but it's not something that could only be done in a dream.

I think it's definitely two different things:  solving a problem vs. coming up with something that you know you couldn't consciously remember.  For example, re the problem solving, only musicians ever come up with a song in a dream, only chemists come up with the formula for a molecule, only a guy trying to invent a sewing machine dreams about how to make the needles, etc.  For some reason it seems more remarkable if we say the person "thought of it in a dream" vs. just thought of it, which is how most things happen.

So Walms I think that is impressive that you dreamed a formula that worked--it probably means you are good in math.  You are probably not just good at math in your dreams, right?

The only thing I can think of as something really coming from someplace inaccessible to your consciousness is a memory that you know you can't remember while you are awake.  Like Hazel's song lyrics.  I dreamed about being on a street in my old neighborhood the other night, and when I woke up I looked at a map to see if I had gotten the name right--I hadn't.  I can't name all the streets in that area while I am awake, but it wouldn't be surprising if I "knew", somewhere in my mind, since I've seen them so many times.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to think of something like that, something you are sure you don't know, then try to dream  it.  I recently looked at a map of those streets, and I still can't name them in order right now.  Could I dream them in order?  I don't know.  I messed up the first time, but I didn't really have that in mind.  I can think of one corner in particular and visualize it well, but I don't remember the name of that street.  It wouldn't be a surprise if I heard it, but I really can't think of it.  I can easily check it afterwards and see if I dreamed it right.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 18, 2009, 07:20:14 AMI think it's definitely two different things:  solving a problem vs. coming up with something that you know you couldn't consciously remember.  For example, re the problem solving, only musicians ever come up with a song in a dream, only chemists come up with the formula for a molecule, only a guy trying to invent a sewing machine dreams about how to make the needles, etc. I disagree.  I'm not a musician and have a poor understanding of classical music.  But an orchestra can play in my dreams.  The visual aspect is the same, I suppose.  If you were drawing, would you know how to pose a figure in a certain way, or how to correctly create the features of someone's face?  But we do it in dreams all the time.

Quote from: Alex Lou on June 18, 2009, 07:45:39 PMQuote from: Moonbeam on June 18, 2009, 07:20:14 AMI think it's definitely two different things:  solving a problem vs. coming up with something that you know you couldn't consciously remember.  For example, re the problem solving, only musicians ever come up with a song in a dream, only chemists come up with the formula for a molecule, only a guy trying to invent a sewing machine dreams about how to make the needles, etc. I disagree.  I'm not a musician and have a poor understanding of classical music.  But an orchestra can play in my dreams.  The visual aspect is the same, I suppose.  If you were drawing, would you know how to pose a figure in a certain way, or how to correctly create the features of someone's face?  But we do it in dreams all the time.

I know what you mean; I have music in my dreams too.  It seem original, but I don't know if it is or not, and since I have no way of reproducing it outside the dream, I guess I'll never know.  That's kind of weird, because when I have unkown music, mine is like an orchestra too, and that is not the kind of music I would think my mind would come up with at all, since like you I don't know anything about classical music.

And the drawing thing too; I have paintings and art-work that I can't recreate in dreams, but I just don't know if they would translate to the outside.  Mu and I were talking about this once--are they "real"; I mean, did we just dream we saw a beautiful picture, or was there a complete beautiful picture that could be recreated?  I guess it may be the same thing, and if somebody was an artist, they could draw it, like Dali.  But then again--only an artist could bring it out of the dream.   It wouldn't make any sense for a non-chemist to say they dreamed of a molecular structure, or a person who didn't understand math to say they dreamed of a formula--does it make sense for a person who can't write music to say they dreamed an original composition?  I don't know.  A dream of music isn't a "creation" really, until it is made real, IMO.

So that's kind of what I mean--if you don't bring it out of the dream, it never becomes "real".  What was it then?  It's hard to say, not being able to examine it and share it with other people.  Yes, of course we create all kinds of things in dreams, whole scenarios and all the sights and sounds and background that go with them.  I don't deny that.

I see.  So you are only interested here in the knowledge that we can bring out, keep, and share.

Quote from: Alex Lou on June 18, 2009, 08:19:16 PMI see.  So you are only interested here in the knowledge that we can bring out, keep, and share.

Well, how else can you prove it's real knowledge?

Actually, it started out wondering if dreams are ever useful in accessing information that we can't consciously get to.  We still haven't really had an example of that.  (Except possibly Hazel's lyrics--depending on if she's sure she couldn't remember them while awake.)

As a musician who has written tons of music I think it's exactly the same. It only exists in your head until you bring it out. What about the songs that get away because I'm busy and lose them before I get a chance to sit down and pull them out? Are they really any less real than the ones I managed to extract? Take the song I mentioned that my friend sang in my dream. Had I woke up late for work I never could have gotten it out. In that case would it have never really existed?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "really existed".

Exactly!

There's a line of thought that suggests everything only exists in our heads.  That doesn't mean that worldly things don't exist, only that what we know of them is what meaning we make of them.

If I have a piece of music in my head which so happens to be the same tune as Bahomet's does that mean it's the same piece of music?

Quote from: Burned up on June 25, 2009, 08:13:57 AMThere's a line of thought that suggests everything only exists in our heads.  That doesn't mean that worldly things don't exist, only that what we know of them is what meaning we make of them. Yes, that's all we've got, what is detected by our sense organs and interpreted by our brain.  Everything's existence is felt by us only in our own heads, so I guess you could say it "exists" to us only there.  However, I bet red looks the same to me as it does to you.  So we can assume that talking about things as if they exist outside of our own heads has some meaning.

QuoteIf I have a piece of music in my head which so happens to be the same tune as Bahomet's does that mean it's the same piece of music? Same enough, if you both get them out of your heads and listen to each other's, or if somebody else listens and says they are the same.

You may be interested in this post I saw.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showpost.php?p=1120908&postcount=1

It's pretty interesting, but hard to believe somebody could get that much information from their dreams. Maybe you want to ask him some questions about it.

I dreamed that Mark was showing me a bunch of drawings he made before I had any idea he was really into drawing. The posts about it are in the journals at DV

I had a creepy dream last week about a giant red monster that could inhale so strongly that people would fly into it's mouth and be swallowed. When I went to see the Transformers yesterday, there was a giant red monster that did that. It was a bit different in the movie, but similar enough to weird me out a little when I saw it.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 26, 2009, 07:39:23 AMQuote from: Burned up on June 25, 2009, 08:13:57 AMThere's a line of thought that suggests everything only exists in our heads.  That doesn't mean that worldly things don't exist, only that what we know of them is what meaning we make of them. Yes, that's all we've got, what is detected by our sense organs and interpreted by our brain.  Everything's existence is felt by us only in our own heads, so I guess you could say it "exists" to us only there.  However, I bet red looks the same to me as it does to you.  So we can assume that talking about things as if they exist outside of our own heads has some meaning.

We cant be sure of that until we compare notes, metaphorically speaking. But I could look at a steam train and say it's boring.  You might say it's fascinating.  Our sense organs are receiving the same data.

QuoteQuoteIf I have a piece of music in my head which so happens to be the same tune as Bahomet's does that mean it's the same piece of music? Same enough, if you both get them out of your heads and listen to each other's, or if somebody else listens and says they are the same.

Yes, they need to be realised to have any social meaning.  My point was that said music did not arise from sense organ data, unlike the steam train.  Until we get them "out of our heads" that is.

(Yes I've done two RCs).

Quote from: Caradon on June 30, 2009, 01:06:54 PMI had a creepy dream last week about a giant red monster that could inhale so strongly that people would fly into it's mouth and be swallowed. When I went to see the Transformers yesterday, there was a giant red monster that did that. It was a bit different in the movie, but similar enough to weird me out a little when I saw it. That is strange, but I didn't really mean precognition, but something that you couldn't come up with consciously, but you have a way of knowing.  Like a specific memory that you know you can't come up with consciously (because you try, and it's not there), but it can be validated (by checking, asking somebody, etc).  (Who knows; maybe a commercial came on for the movie but you weren't consciously aware of it.  In that case, I guess it would count, but we don't know if you really saw a commercial.)

Quote from: Burned up on June 30, 2009, 03:54:24 PMWe cant be sure of that until we compare notes, metaphorically speaking. But I could look at a steam train and say it's boring.  You might say it's fascinating.  Our sense organs are receiving the same data. If we both describe a thing with steam coming out of going down some tracks, that's close enough.

QuoteYes, they need to be realised to have any social meaning.  My point was that said music did not arise from sense organ data, unlike the steam train.  Until we get them "out of our heads" that is. We don't know for sure if they are arising from sense organs or not, I guess--maybe if we were able to get the music out, it might be original or it might be something we've heard before.  (I know we think it is original at the time, in the dream--but it's hard to say, without actually getting it out. We may dream the Merrie Melodies theme and think it is original, because our minds are not always working right in dreams.) But there are the cases of real original-song dreaming, so there is non-sense organ arising music.  I guess that's true of all original music, dreaming or not dreaming--it arises in somebody's mind without being heard by the ears.

Quote(Yes I've done two RCs).