In "The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming", the authors say that they did not find any incidents of knowledge being revealed in a dream which a person did not already consciously know.  Meaning, anything that a person dreams about, they already know, and know that they know--no suppressed memories are ever revealed, no subconscious revelations, no lessons long forgotten, nothing like that.

I think a lot of us assume that our dreaming minds have access to things which our conscious minds do not, and the "subconscious" is a source of information which may be revealed to us in dreams--whether these are consciously forgotten memories, or information that we "know", but which did not register consciously--anything like that.

If you have any examples of dreaming about information which you were not consciously aware of, or memories that you had long forgotten but which came back to you in a dream, please post it here.  If information--you know that you were not previously aware of it; if a memory--somebody else can verify it.  I'm not talking about anything paranormal, just evidence that there is a subconscious which knows things that the conscious does not.

Thanks.

I have two examples of this, though one of them is not my own.

A lot of times I will dream of songs that I have heard, playing as perfectly as if it were in real life. The thing is, most of the time this happens I do not know all the lyrics to the song. Somehow, it manages to play the parts I don't even know.

Also, my brother had this old Hawaiian coin when he was younger. He lost it one day, and spent ages searching for it. (Though with no luck.) He says that one night he had a dream that he was climbing up a mountain, and at the top sat a blue recliner that is in our living room. He looked under it and found the coin. After he woke up, he went and looked under the recliner. Sure enough, the coin was there. (I'm not sure how reliable this story is, however. He swears it's true, but he has been known to make up things just for the attention.)

I have often had dreams over the years of people I've not thought about, been reminded of or had reason to think about in ages - like people I went to school with in kindergarten, for example.  I'm quite certain that my dreaming mind dredges up stuff that is extremely deep in my memory hole, and does it seemingly on its own.

As far as knowledge, I did dream once that a machine I was moving would fall on me.  When later IRL I was moving that machine, I remembered the dream right at the spot when the machine was supposed to fall and I moved.  The machine fell right where I was standing.

I have also often dreamed of solutions for problems I was trying to resolve IRL - most often technical sorts of problems.  The solutions have always been good ones.

I would suggest that the authors of that book did very selective "research".   I have often experienced things in dreams that I have had no way of knowing and I know many people who have had similar experiences.

I have met many people in my dreams and later "met" them in this reality (some resided thousands of miles away and I would never have come in contact with them in this reality.)

In some cultures this is not a question at all but a lived reality.  That we are not exposed to them here in our "modern" society doesn't make it not so.

Stepping off soap box.

If you want to believe that what we call premonition is not real .... have it be that way in your life.  I like the benefits of premonition.  My life works much better and easier with it.

BlessU Sam

Quote from: Hazel on June 07, 2009, 07:19:23 AMA lot of times I will dream of songs that I have heard, playing as perfectly as if it were in real life. The thing is, most of the time this happens I do not know all the lyrics to the song. Somehow, it manages to play the parts I don't even know. I know what you mean with perfect music recreation in dreams.  Do you still know the lyrics then after you wake up?

QuoteAlso, my brother had this old Hawaiian coin when he was younger. He lost it one day, and spent ages searching for it. (Though with no luck.) He says that one night he had a dream that he was climbing up a mountain, and at the top sat a blue recliner that is in our living room. He looked under it and found the coin. After he woke up, he went and looked under the recliner. Sure enough, the coin was there. (I'm not sure how reliable this story is, however. He swears it's true, but he has been known to make up things just for the attention.) Well, if it's true, that's pretty good.  More like ESP than remembering knowledge, however, unless he saw it go there and forgot about it.  Of course if a lot of things roll under that recliner, it may have been an obvious place to look.  (Our cats put everything under our couch).

Quote from: pj on June 07, 2009, 09:05:36 AMI have often had dreams over the years of people I've not thought about, been reminded of or had reason to think about in ages - like people I went to school with in kindergarten, for example.  I'm quite certain that my dreaming mind dredges up stuff that is extremely deep in my memory hole, and does it seemingly on its own. But are you certain you couldn't have consciously remembered it, and if so, are you sure that it really happened?  That's what I'm thinking about.

QuoteAs far as knowledge, I did dream once that a machine I was moving would fall on me.  When later IRL I was moving that machine, I remembered the dream right at the spot when the machine was supposed to fall and I moved.  The machine fell right where I was standing. Well, I'm not sure what to say about that one.  I'm not assuming there is such a thing as precognition, so either you were thinking about having to move the washing machine and were worried about it falling, because it was a real risk, and then it actually happened, or the dream and the reality were not as close as you thought until after both incidents happened, and the reality of one influenced the recall of the other.   (Of course this is not a judgment of your honesty at all--it's just that we all know how strange and fluid dream recall is--so if you didn't document it exactly before hand, it hard for someone else to evaluate it.)

QuoteI have also often dreamed of solutions for problems I was trying to resolve IRL - most often technical sorts of problems.  The solutions have always been good ones. Now that is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Something where you have the knowledge, somewhere in your mind, yet haven't consciously put it together and come up with the answer.  Then you dream the complete solution.  There are examples in history of this sort of thing, but it's hard to come up with real life examples.  We read a lot of dreams, and how often does somebody document something like that?  It doesn't seem to happen very often.

Quote from: dallyup52 on June 07, 2009, 10:16:06 AMI would suggest that the authors of that book did very selective "research".   I have often experienced things in dreams that I have had no way of knowing and I know many people who have had similar experiences. They mostly did research on themselves (three lucid dreamers), and I think they might had a forum like this that they collected data from other people.  They did not claim to be scientists doing well-controlled research, and acknowledged that this was mostly just their collective experience.

Most of what they said felt right to me, and corresponded to the experiences I've had--you know I don't believe in anything paranormal, but what I'm talking about now is much more basic than that.  The said that in their experience nobody ever dreamt anything that they couldn't have consciously come up with.  They also said however that the experience of feeling "wetness" was rare in dreams, and that night a DC threw a glass of water in my face to disprove that one.  So I was just wondering how many examples we could come up with that would show that this other phenomenon exists as well.  Everybody always just assumes that in dreams we are aware of these things, but how often does a verifiable example happen?

QuoteI have met many people in my dreams and later "met" them in this reality (some resided thousands of miles away and I would never have come in contact with them in this reality.) Evidence?

QuoteIn some cultures this is not a question at all but a lived reality.  That we are not exposed to them here in our "modern" society doesn't make it not so. Pics or it didn't happen.     You know what I'm saying--people can claim anything--and do.

QuoteStepping off soap box.

If you want to believe that what we call premonition is not real .... have it be that way in your life.  I like the benefits of premonition.  My life works much better and easier with it.

You are sort of misunderstanding what I am wanting here.  Maybe what you call premonition is something that other people recognize as conscious evaluation or intuition (which would be related to what I'm thinking about with dreams--subconscious knowledge, not consciously recognized.)  If you have any real evidence of premonitions, that would be great to share, but what I am thinking now is something completely non-paranormal.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with real examples, if they exist.  I'm not really leaning one way or the other--I don't think it often happens to me (I might have one example, I need to find it and see how good it is), and I think they might have been wrong about a couple things, so it may exist.

Oh another thing I think they underestimated were intense feelings of happiness or bliss or whatever in dreams--they seemed to think that those were not "real"; but I'm not sure what they meant.  If you dream of being intensely happy, how is that different than being intensely happy while you were in the dream?  It's like if they were saying that if you dream an emotion, it wasn't "real".  But emotions are subjective anyway (well, there are physical manifestations, but you do have those in dreams too, as we know.)

I read the book a while back; this is stuff that has been in the back of my head since I read it, and I finally decided to try and find out.  Maybe I'll dream the answer.

QuoteDo you still know the lyrics then after you wake up? Occasionally, but more often than not I forget them again.

QuoteMore like ESP than remembering knowledge, however, unless he saw it go there and forgot about it. My theory on that is that he subconsciously knew that it was dropped there, and therefore he dreamed the location.

Hypnosis is a proved tool in dredging up memory that is otherwise inaccessible.  If it can happen with hypnosis, it seems feasible that it could happen while dreaming as well.

Quote from: dallyup52 on June 07, 2009, 10:16:06 AMI would suggest that the authors of that book did very selective "research".   I have often experienced things in dreams that I have had no way of knowing and I know many people who have had similar experiences.

I have met many people in my dreams and later "met" them in this reality (some resided thousands of miles away and I would never have come in contact with them in this reality.)

BlessU Sam Very well put Sam.  I've also met people in the dream world before meeting them in the physical, and it has happened several times.  On one occasion I had a series of dreams with this young gal who I had never met before where I was something like a big brother to her.  I learn all kinds of things from my dreams and go all kinds of places, many of which I have never visited in the physical.  Sorry authors, but you really missed the boat on this one.

Moonbeam,

I would think that the only "evidence" that would be sufficient to you (and reasonably so) would be your own experience.  That is the best way to get anything really "real" to any of us (unless we are quite easily swayed.)

Allow your self to gather your own evidence.  Have that be a "task" while in your lucids.  Program it in as you go to sleep.  Allow yourself to remember it.  I think that we are ( I know I was) programed to either ignore or forget this type of evidence that would be uncomfortable to the brain to process.  Life can be experienced as magical.  There has been no greater joy in my life than meeting some of these souls from the "other side" when on this side (particularly the soul mates).   Remembering brings tears to my eyes.

Or don't allow yourself to experience this.  Either way is perfect.

BlessU Sam

Quote from: Hazel on June 07, 2009, 12:47:30 PMQuoteDo you still know the lyrics then after you wake up? Occasionally, but more often than not I forget them again. Well, if you didn't remember them before the dream (like you wouldn't have been able to consciously recall them), then dreamed it and they were right, and then you remembered it even for a little while, I'd say that counts.

QuoteMore like ESP than remembering knowledge, however, unless he saw it go there and forgot about it.QuoteMy theory on that is that he subconsciously knew that it was dropped there, and therefore he dreamed the location. That would count too then, for what I'm talking about.

Quote from: pj on June 07, 2009, 01:19:59 PMHypnosis is a proved tool in dredging up memory that is otherwise inaccessible.  If it can happen with hypnosis, it seems feasible that it could happen while dreaming as well.

That's a good point--but even with hypnosis, they have shown that people are suggestible and will fill in inaccurate details if led by the hypnotist.  That would be a good subject to research some more; I agree that if it is possible with hypnosis, it should be possible in dreams.

Quote from: iadr on June 07, 2009, 01:52:14 PMVery well put Sam.  I've also met people in the dream world before meeting them in the physical, and it has happened several times.  On one occasion I had a series of dreams with this young gal who I had never met before where I was something like a big brother to her.  I learn all kinds of things from my dreams and go all kinds of places, many of which I have never visited in the physical.  Sorry authors, but you really missed the boat on this one.

That's not really what the authors were talking about in what I am describing now.  (They did talk about psi phenomenon, but that's we have a lot of stuff about that already).  This is just stuff that you would reasonably be able to have knowledge of, but just can't consciously bring it up, then having it revealed in a dream.  That's all.  Nothing paranormal.

But on the other subject, I really wish you guys would give some examples of this.  If it happens so often, you should be able to show a couple examples, not just you met somebody later who reminded you of a DC.  Your dream journal would be pretty good evidence; if you have something happen and then say, look at the dream on such and such date, showing that you dreamed it accurately before it happened.  I don't assume you can think you can do this on demand, right?  Like say, show me what's going to happen, and then have it happen.  That would be pretty impressive.  This is all in retrospect, right?  Even so, there should be some examples.

No offense, but that's how science works.  Without evidence, it's not real.  It it's real, there should be evidence.  Very simple.  I'm not saying you are making things up; I believe that you believe it.  That's not the point, however.

Anyway, this other thing of knowledge revealed should be much easier to demonstrate.  I really think there are examples, even if somewhat rare.

Quote from: dallyup52 on June 07, 2009, 02:50:05 PMI would think that the only "evidence" that would be sufficient to you (and reasonably so) would be your own experience.  That is the best way to get anything really "real" to any of us (unless we are quite easily swayed.) Not at all.  It would be very simple to convince me.  Dream something unexpected before it happens, anything at all, tell everybody, and then if it happens, I'll give you credit for it.  Or let me put something on my dresser and I'll give you my address, even take pics of my house and the dresser without the object etc. and show you, then you tell me what it is.  I don't need my own experience; in fact, I would wonder about objectivity if that were the case.  If it were really indisputable, like I dreamt the lottery numbers or some big news event like 9/11, and then it came true, something like that, that would work, but soft things, like managing to pass a message to pj, could easily be subject to bias or something.  What if we both forgot mentioning something, then I happened to use it as a message, and he happened to remember it?  It could easily happen.  I'd be a little less skeptical, maybe, and motivated to try harder, but that's probably all.

QuoteAllow your self to gather your own evidence.  Have that be a "task" while in your lucids.  Program it in as you go to sleep.  Allow yourself to remember it.  I think that we are ( I know I was) programed to either ignore or forget this type of evidence that would be uncomfortable to the brain to process.  Life can be experienced as magical.  There has been no greater joy in my life than meeting some of these souls from the "other side" when on this side (particularly the soul mates).   Remembering brings tears to my eyes. I do have that as a goal--I spend a lot of lucids trying to find pj to pass a message.  I don't really expect it to happen, but it's fun, and if it does, well--I'll be like you guys then, believing without being able to prove it.  But that would be a start.  I know a lot of people have spent a lot of time on this and never come up with anything, but it's fun to try yourself.

QuoteOr don't allow yourself to experience this.  Either way is perfect. Lol, all I'm asking is a tiny shred of evidence.  If you are really experiencing it, that shouldn't be so hard to provide.  Again I am not doubting that you think that this has happened.  Just do it once in advance, and let other people know.  If that is not possible, wouldn't you wonder why not?

Moonbeam you already saw the post I made in deep dreaming. I had a dream viewing my father failing to come to a stop and say: "These break pads are bad, gotta get them replaced", then my brother calling me that very afternoon asking me to come drop off some break pads&bolts as they gave out on him and he had to get them fixed. Coincidence? Possibly. Also the dream I had where my brother brought home a specific brand name ukulele with specific type of wood for a steal of a price, and that very afternoon I was offered the exact brand name/wood type ukulele for 2/3rds less then what it costs. Coincidence again, possibly. I did not know that the break pads were bad and would give out before the dream, nor did I know I would be offered that exact ukulele before that dream. I doubt that is what you are looking for as far as "proof", but I believe you will never really be satisfied until you expierence it yourself, only then will you truly know, and then you will join us here at the lunatic fringe .

Annsie!    It's good to see you.

Thanks to you and Golden Son for your examples.  Psychic phenomenon weren't really what I had in mind.  Those are interesting, and may qualify more as intuition type knowledge than psychic, which of course would count as knowledge not consciously known being realized in a dream.  Being worried about your husband, thinking your brakes might be bad--not exactly evidence of precognition, but examples of intuition perhaps.  I don't know what to say about the ukulele and the duplex--I would have no idea how unusual that would be to dream of something in those categories and then have it come true.  Certainly within the realm of coincidence, I would think.

Thanks again, and welcome back annsie.

MB,

I do not have any  (much) energy on proving to you that what I say is so for me.

However,  the following is true but I don't expect you to fully understand or believe it ....

I made $1,000,000+ in the stock market using this information and yet I could never go to sleep one night and "know" that I was going to get any information that particular night.

I married my first wife out of this knowledge (as she did me, when, at the time I was engaged to another and she was living in a different city.)

I saw and talked to my brother's girl friend whom I had never met (they lived in CA and I in GA.) I later met her physically and later still, in the flesh.

I saw my trip to Colombia and Peru years before I actually took the trip.

I live my life out of and within this type of knowledge and information. It is common stance as it is with many of my close friends.

My friend Julie (a nurse) dreamt of me and played with me OB for years before I met her.  I have never remembered the playing but she had information about some of my travels that no one here in this plane knows of.  Since then, we have regularly exchanged information about things that we are doing to guide one another using the info from that other realm.

The list goes on and on and on ........ I have been very successful in my life using this way of life and awareness.  My two boys were brought up in this way of life and are very successful (jobs, marriages, spirit, friends, etc).  They lead magical lives and don't think of it as magical  ... just the way it is.

The thing, I believe, is for you to prove it to yourself not for me prove it to you.

Are you convinced now   I wouldn't be if I was you.

I would find it interesting and maybe incredible but it is like having sex.  You can read about it all you want but it just isn't the same as experiencing it yourself.

enjoy the exploration ...

BlessU Sam

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 07, 2009, 08:46:35 PMAnnsie!    It's good to see you.

Thanks to you and Golden Son for your examples.  Psychic phenomenon weren't really what I had in mind.  Those are interesting, and may qualify more as intuition type knowledge than psychic, which of course would count as knowledge not consciously known being realized in a dream.  Being worried about your husband, thinking your brakes might be bad--not exactly evidence of precognition, but examples of intuition perhaps.  I don't know what to say about the ukulele and the duplex--I would have no idea how unusual that would be to dream of something in those categories and then have it come true.  Certainly within the realm of coincidence, I would think.

Thanks again, and welcome back annsie.

I see, one of the biggest problems that always arises when discussing complex topics such as this is "words" or wording. It is worse enough that we are trying to make sense of or grasp the seemingly ungraspable, but using the english language where one word such as "precognition" or "intuition" has entirely different meanings to each individual, you often find what you are trying to communicate lost in translation.   , if only...if only

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 07, 2009, 08:46:35 PMAnnsie!    It's good to see you.

Thanks to you and Golden Son for your examples.  Psychic phenomenon weren't really what I had in mind.  Those are interesting, and may qualify more as intuition type knowledge than psychic, which of course would count as knowledge not consciously known being realized in a dream.  Being worried about your husband, thinking your brakes might be bad--not exactly evidence of precognition, but examples of intuition perhaps.  I don't know what to say about the ukulele and the duplex--I would have no idea how unusual that would be to dream of something in those categories and then have it come true.  Certainly within the realm of coincidence, I would think.

Thanks again, and welcome back annsie.

I am not trying to force any idea on you, but I am interested in knowing more how you think, if you dont mind sharing that is.

What is your definition of intuition ? and of coincidence ?

I wonder if we are actually singing of the same page without knowing it, like me calling water water and you call it H2O, then arguing that we are talking about different things.

Quote from: Golden Son on June 07, 2009, 09:07:30 PMI see, one of the biggest problems that always arises when discussing complex topics such as this is "words" or wording. It is worse enough that we are trying to make sense of or grasp the seemingly ungraspable, but using the english language where one word such as "precognition" or "intuition" has entirely different meanings to each individual, you often find what you are trying to communicate lost in translation.   , if only...if only I really wasn't trying to investigate such things, which is why I may not seem very coherent on this subject.  I was thinking more along the lines of Hazel's remembering of forgotten song lyrics, or pj figuring out a problem in a dream.  If there were good examples of that, I would be finding out what I wanted to.   I know I can't always consciously come up with something that I "know", but how often in dreams do we come up with complex things such as those two examples?  Memories, forgotten knowledge, putting together the pieces of a puzzle, etc.

I think "precognition" would only qualify in cases of advance knowledge of unknowable and unpredictable things.  Not something that you could know at a sub- or preconscious level (squeaky brakes, sick husband), but picking the winning lottery numbers, predicting an airplane crash, something like that.  "Intuition" is what I would use for advance knowledge of those possibly predictable events--for some people they would be conscious knowledge, for some they may not register except in the back of their minds, then surface later (as potentially the kind of knowledge I am thinking of as that which is known on some level in the mind, but not consciously).  Of course we all have things happen and then realize later that we should have known, when we think back--perhaps some people have less consciousness of these things, have it happen more often, and subsequently identify these things as being intuition or "precognition" rather than consciously recognizing and evaluating the signs that were there all along (in which case it's just conscious knowledge.)

Quote from: annsie on June 07, 2009, 09:24:45 PMI am not trying to force any idea on you, but I am interested in knowing more how you think, if you dont mind sharing that is.

What is your definition of intuition ? and of coincidence ? See above for intuition--subconsciously known information that came from clues in the environment, not consciously identified at the time and not recognized as conscious knowledge.

Coincidence?  Just the usual definition.  Unexpected things that seem connected, but really aren't.  A universe without coincidence would be impossible.  Take your house example--there are only so many types of houses, so dreaming of moving into a duplex is like 1:5 odds, or something like that.  I guess that's coincidence, if it even qualifies as that.

QuoteI wonder if we are actually singing of the same page without knowing it, like me calling water water and you call it H2O, then arguing that we are talking about different things.

Possibly.  Examples of intuition would be the sort of thing I was looking for, I suppose.  I was actually thinking of more concrete things, not intuition exactly.  Intuition may be felt while awake as well, and may not be just a dream-related revelation.  But possibly these incidents qualify--I guess they are similar to putting together a solution to a problem, as pj mentioned--the information is all there, if you an just connect it together--but for some reason you can't do it consciously, and it happens on a subconscious level, then finally is expressed in its final form in the dream.

Here are some examples of the sort of thing I was thinking about.  Not really precognition, but more revelation of knowledge not consciously known.

Here is one of the paragraphs from the book that I was interested if anybody could provide evidence for or against:

"A popular notion of dreaming maintains that, whether because the "unconscious" forgets nothing or because the brain process information in REM sleep, one has a greater access to memories in dreaming than in waking....Forgotten memories of varying degrees of remoteness do apparently spring up in dreams from time to time when nudged by association, as indeed they do in waking.  But neither Janice nor Ruth, when performing another part of the Lucidity Institute experiment...could deliberately coax their dreaming minds into retrieving facts they had forgotten in waking by any means tried:  asking dream characters, looking up the information in dream books, or striving to remember it.  Neither could the vast majority of the other participants."  ("The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming", p. 123)

Two historical examples of problems being figured out in dreams (possibly):

Freidrich Kekule's dream of a snake devouring it own tail which gave him the idea for the structure of the benzene molecule.  (There is reason to think he may have made this up.)

Elias Howe's invention of the sewing machine, with a needle on the opposite end as in hand-sewing--he dreamt of cannibals poking him with spears with holes in them.

Quote from: annsie on June 07, 2009, 09:56:38 PMI think we can sum up our experience in this little made up scenario:

You and I were sitting inside a house with all doors and windows closed. Then we looked out of one of the windows and saw a bird. We both liked the bird very much and we discussed about what the bird looks like and about its magnificent colours.

Next I walked out of the house and went to study the bird more closely. I wanted to experience the bird in other ways not just by looking but also by touching and talking to it. Suddenly the bird started to talk back to me and we had a conversation. I was amazed and mesmerised by this new experience and couldnt believe my ears for a while. I kept talking to it until I was convinced for myself that this bird could talk before running back inside to tell you.

Upon hearing this you said : " Impossible, birds dont talk ". I said : " But some birds can talk, remember that program on the National Geographic ? " . You said " That bird didnt talk, it just made some noises which it learnt to imitate, nothing special. There is another program that proved birds dont have a vocal cord so they can not speak ". I said " But this one did talk, it talked to me, we had a conversation ". You said " Never heard of it before, it must be your imagination ".

So I went outside and took a video recording of the bird talking and brought it in to show you. Unfortunately the equipment I had was not good enough and there was a lot of background noise so you said " That doesnt sound like that bird talking. Some part of it did sound a bit like words but I would say its more likely talking from the neighbours house which you mistook for the bird talking ".

The only way I would convince you that the bird could talk was to get you out of the house and walk up to the bird and talk to it yourself, right ? When I suggest this, you say " I dont think thats necessary, I stay here and I can see the bird, I know what it looks like and I know birds dont talk  and thats enough for me ".

So I have no choice but to leave you in the house with closed doors and closed windows and walk back outside to enjoy the conversation with that amazing bird, waiting for the day you decided to open the door and came take a closer look.

Meanwhile the bird talks, and it doesnt care whether anyone is listening.

Lol, maybe you should get some better equipment.  That's like the pics of UFO's and Bigfoot which are always conveniently too fuzzy to see.

You don't understand what I am thinking about.  I posted some examples above, hopefully to clarify.  This has nothing to do with anything paranormal, but is similar in that verification by an outside source would be helpful, but not the same degree of proof is need as a paranormal claim.  Just some examples would be good enough.  We have enough DJ's here that if what I was looking for happened, I think we could find some examples which were recorded, then could be verified by the person.  This isn't like total evidence for anything really strange or out there, just a few examples of what the subconscious mind knows that the conscious mind doesn't.

OK, now I understand you. You are actually talking about something else completely different. You are not talking about the ability to access information that is not stored anywhere within the person but about the ability to access information stored deep within the memory bank, which is not accessible while awake.

I guess in that case it would be more like what PJ said about hypnotism and recovered memories, or memories from so called past lives which later can be confirmed.

I have read about cases like that but I have not had personal experience. From what I read it was more common during hypnotism rather than lucid dreaming. My hypothesis is that we reach different levels of consciousnesses in hypnotism compared to in dreams, so we would access different things from each.

Quote from: annsie on June 07, 2009, 10:17:42 PMOK, now I understand you. You are actually talking about something else completely different. You are not talking about the ability to access information that is not stored anywhere within the person but about the ability to access information stored deep within the memory bank, which is not accessible while awake. Yes, exactly.  Stuff that is not consciously known, but was known at one time, or could be known if all the pieces were put together.

QuoteI guess in that case it would be more like what PJ said about hypnotism and recovered memories, or memories from so called past lives which later can be confirmed. Yes, I need to research hypnotism, and see if that really does uncover memories.  I just don't know much about it.

QuoteI have read about cases like that but I have not had personal experience. From what I read it was more common during hypnotism rather than lucid dreaming. My hypothesis is that we reach different levels of consciousnesses in hypnotism compared to in dreams, so we would access different things from each. PJ's point was good; that if it's there, it should be accessible at least some times in dreams, like with hypnotism.  I guess that is the usual goal of hypnotism, while in dreams we have to wait for it to occur randomly, unless we try like in the experiments they did.

I really think I have demonstrated a couple of things that they say are impossible in that book; I was wondering if this were another.

Quote from: annsie on June 07, 2009, 09:56:38 PMMeanwhile the bird talks, and it doesnt care whether anyone is listening.

Annsie, I thought of a way you can understand me:  you've heard of evidence based medicine, right?  I have evidence based living.

I actually just remember something that can be used as a good example. This is a patient of mine whom I am currently caring for.

He came to see me after an incidence at work where he was assaulted. He worked as a security guard when one evening a group of teenager threw rocks at him. The physical injuries were minor, he suffered some bruises and grazes and a headache which lasted for several days. Everyone expected him to recover and be back at work quickly. However, he developed severe anxiety and a phobia not in proportion to what had happened so he was sent to a psychiatrist and a psychologist.

During consultations he was so anxious that he could not think clearly to be able to work with the treating doctors properly. He could not come up with anything that could even vaguely explain his sudden and severe anxiety. During this time he also suffered from a lot of nightmares where recalled details were scarced but they were mainly about him being beaten up.

The psychologist then instructed him to have a pen and paper next to his bed so that if he woke during the night he could write down whatever was in his mind at that time. One day he brought the notepad in to show me and it had the word " Paddington " written on it. He did not recall writing it as he apparently went back to sleep. He could not explain what Paddington meant.

I gave that to the psychologist who went back into his medical record to check if there was anything. It was then found that more than 50 years ago, he was severely assaulted as a 5 years old by a group of teenagers. He was in hospital for several days and the doctor looking after him at that time was Dr Paddington.

Moonbeam, in that case then I send you to the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia, where Dr. Ian Stevenson has reviewed countless cases of past life regression: http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/home.cfm

or see his link he provides to actual video you can watch on certain cases: http://www.ial.goldthread.com/interviews.html

I think this is more what you're looking for as far as accessing information that technically should be impossible to do so. Such as very very young kids who lead you to an exact location on the map at an exact address at an exact date in the past where an event happened. There are too many cases, Ian Stevenson was a Dr. and Professor so his work is carefully cited with references, reading some of his work might steer you in the right direction.

I  can give a few examples MB, but I don't know if they are what you are looking for.

Once after working a 14 hour day trying unsuccessfully to solve a programming problem I went home "dreamt in code&#8221 and wrote the script in 10 minutes flat the next day.

Once I had laid a tarot card out on a table to attempt to identify it in an OBE. I didn&#39t have an OBE that night but I did have a dream that I was in a room in a tower that was severed and that the room would fall if I were to get out of bed and unbalance the situation. The card turned out to be &#8220The Blasted Tower&#8221. Ditto with a dream about a lion and the &#8220Strength&#8221 card.

I once bought a book regarding Jung, dreams, and Alchemy. Before I started it I had a very bizarre dream that I struggled to interpret. A couple days latter when I started the book the first dream listed was the exact same dream, just wrapped in different images.

I had a big powerful dream of being pulled around in a wagon, later my Father asked me if I remembered him pulling me around all over town in a wagon when I was very young. I didn&#39t, but the dream came back to me immediately.

I could give you more examples, but honestly there is nothing you couldn&#39t brush off as being coincidence if you were inclined to do so.

It is so wonderful to hear of the "magic" in your lives.  you all inspire me.

I have talked to many all over the world and the magic is everywhere that I have been.

Thank-you!

Here is a quote from another newsgroup that I am on that is populated by The Monroe Institute  graduates (started by Robert Monroe who developed Hemisynch).

Quote"Sometime I cross over and I can travel to France to visit a friend, or to Florida or Texas.

( I have written these friends and friend of friends, and have written in detail describing the house, the furniture, the attitude of the person, the thoughts, and so on, and to my amazement, the verified the accuracy of it. )" It really isn't that unusual!

Sigh...I guess I should have been more specific in my first post.  I wasn't trying to research the paranormal; I just wanted some examples of subconscious knowledge being revealed in dream.

Thanks, Golden Son, but I'm not really interested in past lives.  (If somebody here were to dream about something like that and then be able to confirm it, I would be interested of course.)

annsie, if you practiced medicine with art instead of science in the U.S., you'd lose your license.  If you want to call experience and knowledge "art", of course that is important, but we have something called "standard of care", and anecdotal practice just doesn't cut it here anymore.  No other comments.

Quote from: Baphomet on June 08, 2009, 04:52:54 AMOnce after working a 14 hour day trying unsuccessfully to solve a programming problem I went home "dreamt in code&#8221 and wrote the script in 10 minutes flat the next day. I think that is a pretty good example.  I think we all know that "sleeping on something" may give a better insight, but a specific solution to a complex problem is unusual, I think.  I can't remember reading too many dreams where that happened.  Your mind kept working on it while you were asleep, obviously.  However, one thing the authors said about this sort of example was that you may have perhaps thought of the solution just as easily while awake, if you had rested some and started again the next day.  So was the knowledge really "subconscious"?

QuoteI could give you more examples, but honestly there is nothing you couldn&#39t brush off as being coincidence if you were inclined to do so. Of course I am inclined to do so.  Verifiable is all that matters.  I'll take your word for it on the computer programming thing, of course, but extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

Quote from: dallyup52 on June 08, 2009, 06:08:07 PMIt really isn't that unusual!

So incredibly common, yet nobody can come up with an example that they can actually prove.  Strange, don't you think?  It just doesn't work like that, you say?  It's only afterwards that you can make the dream fit the events?  What does that tell you?

To all the magical thinkers:  you guys are my friends and I don't mean to insult anybody.  I hope nobody takes anything I said the wrong way.  There is a psychological element to this.  It's obvious that the human mind sees patterns that aren't really there, is inclined to superstitious thinking, chooses what to believe based on emotions rather than evidence, etc.  There is actually quite a bit written on this subject as to why we might have evolved to be this way, some of which I've read.  That's why you can't trust your own mind--it will trick you.  Once you say you believe in something no matter what the evidence shows you--it's all over.   By definition, you are no longer rational.

OK, so we've got a case of remembered song lyrics, and a computer programming problem solved.  An example of each kind of of thing that I was originally looking for.  Not sure if the problem-solving is really a valid example of "subconscious knowledge" (maybe it's really conscious?), but it's pretty cool when that happens.

QuoteOnce you say you believe in something no matter what the evidence shows you--it's all over.   By definition, you are no longer rational. Or don't believe.

The programming dream was a very cool thing. Usually the monkey chatter dreams are very annoying, but here's a case where the monkey came to the rescue.   But yeah, it's hard to know whether to put that down to the SC or not. It was 'my' mind that sorted it out, and it was working hard while my body rested. My SC's role might have just been to make sure that I recalled the answer.

Your skepticism doesn't offend me in the least MB. I just hope you don't roll your eyes too hard every time I post something that strikes you as not being rational.

I'd add to the example of remembered music with remembered visuals.  My dreams seem to indicate that I am capable of photographic memory that I can't access while awake.  Details of my waking surroundings are clearer in my dreams than my waking memory can supply.  Yes, I'm sure; I stare at these things in awe in my lucid dreams.  Same is true with memories of my long dead dog.

Actually, my mom told me an example of remembering something in a dream a while ago: She dreamed that she was buying a birthday cake and was asked for her ID when she tried to use her credit card.  She looked for her driver's license but couldn't find it.  When she woke up, she remembered that her license was going to expire on her birthday.  She had actually forgotten about it.  Although it was knowledge that she had, she just needed reminding to access it.

About hypnosis though:  hypnosis is only proven to reduce pain.  The "memories" that it tends to bring up are false memories.  Probably the same would be true in general for dreams.

I don't believe that new knowledge can be gained in dreams.  But I do think it's possible to put two or more pieces of knowledge together and end up with something significant.  That would be what happened if that story of Freidrich Kekule is true.  Actually, I do it all the time in dreams, but mine are meaningless connections.  Perhaps if I were a professional in a new field I might put together something significant in my dreams. Spoiler for: Off topic   I have these precognitive dreams.  But I don't think they're precognition.  With so many dreams remembered in our lives (and since dreams tend to imitate reality) it is inevitable that we sometimes dream of things that will happen.  For it to be otherwise would be statistically improbable.  But by nature we look for connections and filter out the many, many, many dreams that don't lead to anything material.

Sorry for feeding the debate, MB.

Quote from: Baphomet on June 08, 2009, 10:34:42 PMThe programming dream was a very cool thing. Usually the monkey chatter dreams are very annoying, but here's a case where the monkey came to the rescue.   But yeah, it's hard to know whether to put that down to the SC or not. It was 'my' mind that sorted it out, and it was working hard while my body rested. My SC's role might have just been to make sure that I recalled the answer. Yea, I go back and forth on that one--I mean, when you can't think of somebody's name, and then later it pops into your head, that is a minor example of the same thing (without the creativity, I mean, which is actually the interesting part of your story).  That can happen either awake or dreaming, I guess.

QuoteYour skepticism doesn't offend me in the least MB. I just hope you don't roll your eyes too hard every time I post something that strikes you as not being rational. Lol, no, as long as you don't get offended if I don't believe!

Quote from: Alex Lou on June 08, 2009, 11:59:05 PMI'd add to the example of remembered music with remembered visuals.  My dreams seem to indicate that I am capable of photographic memory that I can't access while awake.  Details of my waking surroundings are clearer in my dreams than my waking memory can supply.  Yes, I'm sure; I stare at these things in awe in my lucid dreams.  Same is true with memories of my long dead dog. Yes, I see what you mean.  I guess the only problem I have with that is how do we know we've got it right?  It seems right in the dream, I know; I think I am hearing completely accurate music with all the instruments, but it's not something I can demonstrate afterwards.

QuoteActually, my mom told me an example of remembering something in a dream a while ago: She dreamed that she was buying a birthday cake and was asked for her ID when she tried to use her credit card.  She looked for her driver's license but couldn't find it.  When she woke up, she remembered that her license was going to expire on her birthday.  She had actually forgotten about it.  Although it was knowledge that she had, she just needed reminding to access it. I think that's an example of a problem being solved in a dream.  I wish stuff like that would happen more often!  It would be cool to wake up every morning with a solution to some problem in your mind.

QuoteAbout hypnosis though:  hypnosis is only proven to reduce pain.  The "memories" that it tends to bring up are false memories.  Probably the same would be true in general for dreams. Oh, OK.  I thought it wasn't good for memories, but I wasn't certain.  You may be right that dreams are the same (I tend to think so.)  Maybe one of these days somebody will come up with an example.

QuoteI don't believe that new knowledge can be gained in dreams.  But I do think it's possible to put two or more pieces of knowledge together and end up with something significant.

Yes, I think so.  I guess that's what the mind does, and sometimes it happens to do it while we're dreaming.  I guess that is always a subconscious process, whether or not it pops out into consciousness during a dream or while you are awake.

QuoteI have these precognitive dreams.  But I don't think they're precognition.  With so many dreams remembered in our lives (and since dreams tend to imitate reality) it is inevitable that we sometimes dream of things that will happen.  For it to be otherwise would be statistically improbable.  But by nature we look for connections and filter out the many, many, many dreams that don't lead to anything material.

Sorry for feeding the debate, MB.

Oh no, not at all, it's fine since you are on my side!

Quote from: annsie on June 09, 2009, 03:40:21 AMIts interesting that you consider anecdotal practise not "cutting it anymore", yet you are prepared to take almost any type of supplement as lucid aid as soon as someone posts here that they have had some form of success. If that not anecdotal practice, what is it ? Not this again.  No, I am not willing to take "almost any type of supplement".  Yes, of course it's anecdotal, but it's not medical practice!  Surely you see the difference.

QuoteHave you got concrete evidences such as reproducible, double blind studies and/or any follow up study of randomised control trials to prove that such supplements work ?  As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, there have been only personal reports on the various perceived benefits of these supplements in inducing lucid dreaming. Even then the results are widely varied and often dont work at all or stop working after a short period of time.

Lol, you are missing the point.  Yes, you are right that supplements have not been extensively scientifically studied re their ability to produce lucid dreams.  However, many of us have taken various supplements and gotten similar results--we share the anecdote, and other people can try it--either it works or it doesn't.

QuoteIn parallel to what you consider other people's experiences to be purely coincidences, I can equally say that any effects you might have had with supplements to be either coincidences or placebo. Sure.  I can't prove it, and I'm not trying to.  People use anecdotal reports all the time in their lives, of course, we couldn't live otherwise.  But that's not practicing medicine, and it's not making extraordinary claims without any evidence.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 09, 2009, 05:46:33 AMQuote from: Baphomet on June 08, 2009, 10:34:42 PMThe programming dream was a very cool thing. Usually the monkey chatter dreams are very annoying, but here's a case where the monkey came to the rescue.   But yeah, it's hard to know whether to put that down to the SC or not. It was 'my' mind that sorted it out, and it was working hard while my body rested. My SC's role might have just been to make sure that I recalled the answer. Yea, I go back and forth on that one--I mean, when you can't think of somebody's name, and then later it pops into your head, that is a minor example of the same thing (without the creativity, I mean, which is actually the interesting part of your story).  That can happen either awake or dreaming, I guess.

I did an interesting experiment along those lines. I can't remember where the idea came from, but the idea was to take a pen and a pad of paper and write down the name of every professional athlete you could name.

You can imagine how it went, first a flurry of names then a few more then a few more... eventually I went and started to do other stuff interrupted by another name, and another name. Woke up the next day and had three more for breakfast and then throughout the day. Of course by that point I wasn't actively trying at all.

It was a lot more interesting than it sounds.

I once dreamt that everybody was wearing a little badge in memory of people who died in "The Stockport Disaster". I had no idea what that was and googled it when I woke up. There was a Stockport Air Disaster once, but I assumed it was just a coincidence.

Quote from: Baphomet on June 09, 2009, 06:28:25 AMI did an interesting experiment along those lines. I can't remember where the idea came from, but the idea was to take a pen and a pad of paper and write down the name of every professional athlete you could name.

You can imagine how it went, first a flurry of names then a few more then a few more... eventually I went and started to do other stuff interrupted by another name, and another name. Woke up the next day and had three more for breakfast and then throughout the day. Of course by that point I wasn't actively trying at all.

It was a lot more interesting than it sounds.

I understand.  The SC kept working on the problem.  In dreams, is there more access to the SC or not?  That's what I wonder.

Quote from: Super Duck on June 09, 2009, 06:39:16 AMI once dreamt that everybody was wearing a little badge in memory of people who died in "The Stockport Disaster". I had no idea what that was and googled it when I woke up. There was a Stockport Air Disaster once, but I assumed it was just a coincidence.

Now if you had dreamed it, then it happened the next day, that would be something!

I think what has gotten lost here is what you are trying to do, Moonbeam.

The sorts of questions you are asking, by my experience, are all intensely personal things that never translate well into what science would accept as provable.  And yet there IS so much anecdotal evidence that one would think somebody would have proved something in a laboratory setting by now.  That does not seem to be the case - as far as we know.

I have talked to dozens of people who have enjoyed shared dreams - including a few situations back at DV where I had access to both people who claimed to be involved.  Whether it really happened or not was never the point, but nothing ever came out of those encounters that would satisfy any level of objective proof.

The brass ring of this or any similar question, it seems to me, is to formulate a way of proving that something concrete is going on.  I don't see any way to do that outside of a rigidly controlled and documented set of experiments where information is being passed - information not available before the subjects engage the test.  Coming up with such proof would change everything.

It wouldn't change anything for many of us as individuals.  For many of us, we have experienced things that have quite solidly convinced us that there is much more to what we commonly acknowledge as reality.  I can go through my own list of experiences, however, and see that every one of those experiences is personal.  So far, I recognize that as the nature of these kinds of understandings and experiences.  My experiences will never convince anybody else who hasn't had similar experiences.

And that's OK.  It's not my job or place to present myself as somebody who is to be believed in these matters.  What I know is nobody's business but my own, unless others really want to know and I really want to open up that part of my life.

In the meantime, the other questions remain.  They are questions readily supported by the kinds of personal experience I am talking about, yet that have so far remained un-demonstrated by any objective standard that would stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Wouldn't it be something if we were to find a way to objectively prove any aspect of this?  I think we are just the right group of people to find a way to do it.  For me, I have most certainly dreamed new music, solutions to complex problems and recovered memories in dreams that had no outside reason to be recovered, so I think it might not be so difficult to find a way to prove these phenomena.

The acquisition of knowledge in a dream, however, is something I have yet to see or experience in a way that could hold up - even though I have had dream encounters and experiences that have had profound effects on my "waking life".  If it is real, I want to be part of finding a way to demonstrate it in a repeatable and scientifically sound manner.

(For those who don't know, Moonbeam and I have been working on message passing for over two years now.  We are not doing it in a tightly controlled manner - the goal remains to first convince ourselves of the possibility, and then go through the effort of establishing a controlled environment to prove it out.)

Quote from: pj on June 09, 2009, 06:51:57 AMI think what has gotten lost here is what you are trying to do, Moonbeam. Yes.  I totally wasn't thinking about anything paranormal, or even expecting people to come up with documented evidence for whatever stories they shared.  Just some examples of something that you didn't know consciously, because you forgot it, and then later finding out that you were right. or like Alex was saying, a detailed photographic dream of something that you know you couldn't describe every detail of, but that's harder to know if it was accurate.  That's all.  Not precognition or coincidences or any extraordinary claims (which need evidence, IMO, to be taken seriously).  Just examples of remembering something in a dream that you were sure you didn't consciously know.  Maybe that doesn't happen.  I'm sure the problem-solving happens, but I really don't think there aren't SC processes in the brain that we aren't aware of, asleep or awake.

Are dreams special in their ability to reveal what is in the SC?  Is there knowledge "trapped" somewhere in our brains that can be revealed in dreams?  That's all I was wondering.  The authors of the book say no, and I don't have many (or any) personal examples, so I was wondering if anybody else did.

I have a false memory that I "consciously" know, so these things have to be able to be checked with other people.  (My memory is of my parents tying me to a tree once when we were picking strawberries.  I asked my Mom about that, and she got really pissed and said she never tied me up!  Lol.  I thought it seemed weird, that's why I asked, but I swear I remember it.  I can only assume it was a dream I had when I was very young, and got confused and thought it really happened.)  That sort of thing is why we need somebody else to confirm it--I didn't mean in a scientific way, just a little evidence, that's all.

QuoteThe sorts of questions you are asking, by my experience, are all intensely personal things that never translate well into what science would accept as provable.  And yet there IS so much anecdotal evidence that one would think that somebody would have proved something in a laboratory setting by now.  That does not seem to be the case - as far as we know. I know.  I wasn't really looking for these flights of imagination.  For the non-extraordinary claims, all I wanted was some examples.  I would totally believe anybody on here who said something like maybe their parents were talking about something that they didn't really remember, and that night they had a dream where it all came back to them, and then they confirmed that the dream was accurate.  That's not so hard to believe, doesn't require documentation (which would be nice, just a DJ entry, then later checking on it, but whatever).  On the other hand, claims of first meeting people while dreaming and then later meeting them in real life need just a little bit more evidence for me to believe.  I don't think that is unreasonable, do you?  It's not like it would be so hard to show, if it really did happen.

QuoteI have talked to dozens of people who have enjoyed shared dreams - including a few situations back at DV where I had access to both people who claimed to be involved.  Whether it really happened or not was never the point, but nothing ever came out of those encounters that would satisfy any level of objective proof. No, I never have either.

QuoteThe brass ring of this or any similar question, it seems to me, is to formulate a way of proving that something concrete is going on.  I don't see any way to do that outside of a rigidly controlled and documented set of experiments where information is being passed - information not available before the subjects engage the test.  Coming up with such proof would change everything. That's not really the question I was asking here, but re the paranormal, yes, it would change everything for rational people who need evidence on which to base their opinions--but I doubt it would change the world.  The majority of people believe paranormal things are true already.   They would just say, "I told you so!", and go on with their lives.  If evidence doesn't mean anything to somebody, the point is moot.

Many, many rigidly controlled experiments have been done.  Nada.

QuoteIt wouldn't change anything for many of us as individuals.  For many of us, we have experienced things that have quite solidly convinced us that there is much more to what we commonly acknowledge as reality.  I can go through my own list of experiences, however, and see that every one of those experiences is personal.  So far, I recognize that as the nature of these kinds of understandings and experiences.  My experiences will never convince anybody else who hasn't had similar experiences. Ok, yes, it wouldn't change things for people who already believe in things without evidence.  Only if it started being used in ways which actually affected reality would people notice--then you can bet they'd have a little different sort of "belief" than they did before.  If I suddenly started dreaming lottery numbers or predicting the stock market, people would notice and that would change things.  Til then, I haven't seen anybody doing much to affect reality with their dream-spirit travelling or whatever.  They still base their lives on the physical world--if not, they won't be long for this world!

QuoteIn the meantime, the other questions remain.  They are questions readily supported by the kinds of personal experience I am talking about, yet that have so far remained un-demonstrated by any objective standard that would stand up to scientific scrutiny. They aren't readily supported by my personal experience, and I don't need personal experience, if there is evidence to support it.

QuoteWouldn't it be something if we were to find a way to objectively prove any aspect of this?  I think we are just the right group of people to find a way to do it.  For me, I have most certainly dreamed new music, solutions to complex problems and recovered memories in dreams that had no outside reason to be recovered, so I think it might not be so difficult to find a way to prove these phenomena. There are two completely different subjects here.  Composing music, solving problems, remembering things--these are not disputed abilities, right?  I just wanted some examples of it occurring in dreams.  I'm not surprised that people can come up with some, however, they seem to be somewhat scarce (judging more by reading DJ's than anything.)  Like I said, I don't need scientific documentation--anecdotes are fine!  I wasn't trying to do any sort of publishable research here.

The subject of the paranormal is entirely different, however--I think there is a reason people here only seem to have these while dreaming, and can't come up with any real sort of confirmation, and say you just have to "experience" it yourself to believe, etc.  I can perfectly understand somebody composing music in a dream, even if I could never do it myself.  Show me the music, say you composed it in a dream, and I'll believe you.  But if you say you fly around the world in dreams and meet people, you're gonna need a little more evidence if you want me (or any rational person) to believe you.

It's really not so difficult to see the difference between those two subjects, I don't think.

QuoteThe acquisition of knowledge in a dream, however, is something I have yet to see or experience in a way that could hold up - even though I have had dream encounters and experiences that have had profound effects on my "waking life".  If it is real, I want to be part of finding a way to demonstrate it in a repeatable and scientifically sound manner. I agree the mind is complex, and we may integrate subconscious knowledge into intuition and "precognition" and think that we have done something paranormal, and dreams may be involved in this.  Entirely different than predicting something that you have no way of knowing about.

Quote(For those who don't know, Moonbeam and I have been working on message passing for over two years now.  We are not doing it in a tightly controlled manner - the goal remains to first convince ourselves of the possibility, and then go through the effort of establishing a controlled environment to prove it out.) If we ever succeeded, and if we didn't have any objective evidence, I really wouldn't expect just anybody to believe me; in fact, I would think of them as not being rational or reasonable if they did.

Thanks for those examples.  If anybody thinks of anymore, especially a good memory one that you checks out for you afterwards, I'd be interested in it.

Off the subject but not outside of the discussion, I had a similar childhood memory that turned out to be false.  I absolutely completely remembered us having a Jacob's Ladder under the stairs in the basement.  (A Jacob's Ladder is one of those electrical things made out of a very high voltage transformer that makes sparks rise between two vertical wires.)  I went looking for it and got angry when my parents told me not only that we did not have one but that they didn't even know what they were until I brought it up.

I've no idea where that memory came from, but it was probably from a vivid dream.  I STILL have that memory, and it is no different from other childhood memories that are verified to be real.  (I have incredible confirmed memory of early childhood, by the way.)

I had a similar "memory" as a child that me and my cousin had pushed one of my sister's friends into the garden pond one time. I always felt incredibly guilty about it and a little nervous if she was ever around, but it later became apparent it had never happened. I would have bet a great deal of money on the fact that it happened, until then. I'm also putting it down to a vivid dream.

I love hearing these stories/experiences.  Thanks for sharing them.  We all have such magical lives.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 07, 2009, 03:02:17 PMQuote from: dallyup52 on June 07, 2009, 02:50:05 PMI would think that the only "evidence" that would be sufficient to you (and reasonably so) would be your own experience.  That is the best way to get anything really "real" to any of us (unless we are quite easily swayed.) Not at all.  It would be very simple to convince me.  Dream something unexpected before it happens, anything at all, tell everybody, and then if it happens, I'll give you credit for it.

Lol, all I'm asking is a tiny shred of evidence.  If you are really experiencing it, that shouldn't be so hard to provide.  Again I am not doubting that you think that this has happened.  Just do it once in advance, and let other people know.  If that is not possible, wouldn't you wonder why not?

What misled me was this sentence.

I thought I had some good examples that might fulfil that criteria for MB. I didnt realise that was not what MB meant.

However, in a way, it was interesting the way the thread went as it brought up several very interesting accounts of personal experiences which otherwise might not have been mentioned.

I asked my cousin who is also a natural lucid dreamer if she had had any experience in the category of what MB was looking for. She told me that when she was at high school, there was a math exam in which she got stumped on one particular question. Coming home from school that day she was constantly thinking about that problem and went over it several times but couldnt work it out. She went to sleep still thinking about it then dreamt that she was back at the class sitting the exam. In the dream she managed to solve the math question but only partly. When she woke up she remembered the dream, continued working on it and had it solved.

We have all been told to "sleep on it" when bothered by something. My guess is that maybe we do solve problems in dreams more often than we are aware of simply because we dont remember the dream. When the solution comes back the next day while awake, we believe that we have worked it out consciously.

Another point we might need to consider is whether it is the subsconcious that is at work while asleep. We only know that the cerebral part of the brain is subdued during sleep and the pontine is more active. The consciousness is still active otherwise it would not be a sleep but a coma. We know the cerebral is the area where behaviours are controlled but we dont even know where thoughts are generated from and where does the consciousness reside.

It is very possible that it is still the consciousness that is working, remembering and solving things during our sleeps. It just works better then since its not being bombarded with all other stimuli as during waking time. While awake, it is easier for us all to think, to remember and to work when its quiet, when we sit still and concentrate just on that one issue.

So even if we come up with many reports of this type of experience, it still does not necessarily demonstrate that the subsconscious knows and can do things that the consciousness can not while dreaming.

Quote from: pj on June 09, 2009, 09:45:20 AMOff the subject but not outside of the discussion, I had a similar childhood memory that turned out to be false.  I absolutely completely remembered us having a Jacob's Ladder under the stairs in the basement.  (A Jacob's Ladder is one of those electrical things made out of a very high voltage transformer that makes sparks rise between two vertical wires.)  I went looking for it and got angry when my parents told me not only that we did not have one but that they didn't even know what they were until I brought it up.

I've no idea where that memory came from, but it was probably from a vivid dream.  I STILL have that memory, and it is no different from other childhood memories that are verified to be real.  (I have incredible confirmed memory of early childhood, by the way.)

That is bizarre.  I feel like I've got a few of those things that can't be true.  But a couple other early ones that should be; there is no reason why they wouldn't be.

Quote from: annsie on June 09, 2009, 06:55:36 PMBased on that, it surprised me to see how willingly you would take various supplements based only on the anecdotal evidence reported by a few people. You don't know what you're talking about.  First of all, you didn't even know me, why the hell would you be surprised?  Second of all, while the evidence for lucid dreaming may be anecdotal, but other properties of the various supplements are not, including their safety.   Third, why are you obsessed with this subject?  No, scratch that, I don't care why you are, but know I am never acknowledging another post directed to me by you on this subject.

In an effort to post in something besides DJs, I'll be adding my two cents here.

Hi annsie!  Nice to see you again.  Your last post; when I was reading the thread I was thinking of what to say, and you mentioned something similar.

Moonbeam, I've had some of the things mentioned; songs, programming/math problems, puzzles, etc. .  (And stuff on that other subject in this thread too. )

I think, yes, we can find memories, solve problems; in general, dig up and use stuff from our subconsciousness that would otherwise be difficult, but not impossible, to get at consciously.  A dream can present us with something new; after all, the consciousness can, and it all comes from the same mind.  But I don't think there are things accessible only to the dream.

Perhaps with many things our consciousness actually gets in the way.  Maybe it's too set in it's ways, too distracted, thinking too concretely, etc. .  So it is by virtue of the consciousness being absent that the solutions appear; it stepped out of it's own way.  (This happens while awake too; stop thinking about a problem in the morning, and the solution may suddenly occur later without thinking about it.)

In summary, the dreaming mind does not have access to things unavailable to the conscious mind; just perhaps quicker or easier access to it.

I also think the dreaming mind connects these bits in ways that make no sense or are extremely unlikely to the conscious mind; perhaps in this case even impossible.  So, not exclusive information, just a very different way of dealing with it.

Quote from: Moonbeam on June 09, 2009, 06:45:40 AM In dreams, is there more access to the SC or not?  That's what I wonder.

The way I see it yes, absolutely. I think we (or at least our ego) are entirely in the domain of the SC when we dream.

Let me go back to that wagon dream I mentioned earlier. I was a little sketchy on the details, but I think it might be the kind of thing you are looking for.

In this dream, this AMAZING dream I was as cozy as I&#39ve ever been, just totally blessed out and being pulled around in this wagon listening to surreal music, more intense than anything I&#39ve ever experienced IRL. Pretty simple dream, but it was really intense.

Later, when my father was dying he asked me if I remembered him pulling me all over town in a wagon. I told him I didn&#39t. It made him very sad that I didn&#39t remember.  And then I remember the dream and told him about it. It made him very happy to hear about it, and I was very glad that I had it to share.

So the way I see this WAS lost knowledge that was being given to me by my SC to solve a specific future problem, and that the powerful intensity of the emotion was given as part of the dream for a reason too.

Quote from: mu on June 09, 2009, 10:36:29 PMI think, yes, we can find memories, solve problems; in general, dig up and use stuff from our subconsciousness that would otherwise be difficult, but not impossible, to get at consciously.  A dream can present us with something new; after all, the consciousness can, and it all comes from the same mind.  But I don't think there are things accessible only to the dream. That's kind of what I'm tending to think too.  It seems as if everything people come up with are things that could have been done awake too.  I was just reading something yesterday how REM sleep is helpful for problem-solving, but like a person is presented with a problem, then sleeps, then does better--but it didn't say the person dreamed the answer, and most people probably didn't.  Maybe problems are getting worked on, and sometimes the answer is in the dream, or sometimes it shows up while you are awake--but it would have come out either way.

QuotePerhaps with many things our consciousness actually gets in the way.  Maybe it's too set in it's ways, too distracted, thinking too concretely, etc. .  So it is by virtue of the consciousness being absent that the solutions appear; it stepped out of it's own way.  (This happens while awake too; stop thinking about a problem in the morning, and the solution may suddenly occur later without thinking about it.) That seems like a good idea.

QuoteI also think the dreaming mind connects these bits in ways that make no sense or are extremely unlikely to the conscious mind; perhaps in this case even impossible.  So, not exclusive information, just a very different way of dealing with it.

I'll just have to continue to read DJ's to try and find some examples.  I think they are hard to come up with.  I still haven't found my one possible example that I think I had.

Quote from: Baphomet on June 10, 2009, 12:35:51 AMQuote from: Moonbeam on June 09, 2009, 06:45:40 AM In dreams, is there more access to the SC or not?  That's what I wonder. The way I see it yes, absolutely. I think we (or at least our ego) are entirely in the domain of the SC when we dream.

Let me go back to that wagon dream I mentioned earlier. I was a little sketchy on the details, but I think it might be the kind of thing you are looking for.

In this dream, this AMAZING dream I was as cozy as I&#39ve ever been, just totally blessed out and being pulled around in this wagon listening to surreal music, more intense than anything I&#39ve ever experienced IRL. Pretty simple dream, but it was really intense.

Later, when my father was dying he asked me if I remembered him pulling me all over town in a wagon. I told him I didn&#39t. It made him very sad that I didn&#39t remember.  And then I remember the dream and told him about it. It made him very happy to hear about it, and I was very glad that I had it to share.

So the way I see this WAS lost knowledge that was being given to me by my SC to solve a specific future problem, and that the powerful intensity of the emotion was given as part of the dream for a reason too.

That is a nice story, Baph.  Thanks.

I thought of one example from the border of sleep, and two from sleep directly.  Then I started digging. . .

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Salvador Dali discussed his method of using HI to come up with imagery for his paintings - he would place a metal bowl on the ground and hold a key ring or something metal in his hand over it while sitting in a chair and dozing.  When he reached that point of releasing the keys, he would be roused directly from HI.  This is an example, I think, because these images were being created by his mind but he had to get into HI to "see" them and had to use an elaborate strategy to recover them.

Dave Carter claims to have dreamed a complete song, "Gentle Arms of Eden".  Though he has passed away, there are both written and filmed interviews where he discusses this song and how he would also use that weird twilight between sleep and awake in the creative process for much of his music.

Paul McCartney claims to have dreamed the tune for "Yesterday":

"I woke up with a lovely tune in my head.  I thought, 'That's great, I wonder what that is?'  There was an upright piano next to me, to the right of the bed by the window.  I got out of bed, sat at the piano, found G, found F sharp minor 7th -- and that leads you through then to B to E minor, and finally back to E.  It all leads forward logically.  I liked the melody a lot, but because I'd dreamed it, I couldn't believe I'd written it.  I thought, 'No, I've never written anything like this before.'  But I had the tune, which was the most magic thing!"

Frankenstein came from one of Mary Shelley's dreams.

Otto Loewi claimed to have dreamed an experiment to prove the hypothesis of chemical nerve impulse transmission - an experiment that led to a Nobel Prize.

Lincoln dreamed and recorded his assassination a few days prior to his demise.

Freidrich August Kekule von Stradonitz described in detail a dream that led him to discover what led to the basis of organic chemistry and another that led to the discovery of the nature of the benzene molecule.  He spoke openly of these dreams and encouraged his colleagues to learn to dream.

Elias Howe was trying to solve the problem of making a sewing machine when he dreamed of being taken prisoner by a bunch of natives with spears. . . with holes near their tips.  Putting the hole at the tip of the needle ended up solving the last piece of the puzzle in building a functional sewing machine.

Robert Lewis Stevenson talked about how Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde was borne of a dream.  He wrote quite a bit about how his dreaming was used in his creative processes.

Richard Bach dreamed "Jonathan Livingston Seagull," a novel about the power of dreaming.

Jack Nicklaus claimed to have dreamed a correction to his swing during a slump in 1964 - a correction that brought him to the pinnacle of his sport and kept him there for a long time.

Srinivasa Ramanujan claimed that both inspiration and insight for his original work on infinite series, analytical theory of numbers, continued fractions and elliptical functions came from his dreams.

Louis Agassiz claims to have had the same dream three nights in a row led to his figuring out how to classify one of the "Poissons Fossiles."

Steven King has discussed the importance of dreams in his creative processes.

--

These are just a few examples from digging around.  I stuck with ones where original sources, (writings, lectures, speeches or interviews,) from the subjects were the source of information.

Thanks PJ.  Actually after I read that list I realize I've seen most of those at one time or another.

Most of those are examples of creativity.  It seems like dreaming is active in that process.  Of course most examples of creativity happen while we are awake, so I'm not really sure dreaming adds too much.

No real examples of unknown knowledge becoming available.  I don't know; maybe it doesn't mean anything anyway.  If you came up with a memory, how would you know that you wouldn't have been able to do it consciously?  You'd have to plan to do it; like re-create something so detailed you know for sure you could never do it while you were awake, then be able to bring that memory into waking to know that you actually did it.  I think that is the kind of experiment they tried to do without success in the book--specific, detailed memories, and remembered well enough after you wake up to confirm it.

(I'm sure Lincoln was afraid of being assassinated, for good reason, so I wouldn't count that as real precognition.)

It does seem that "getting consciousness out of the way" is a factor in most of these.  It seems to be very common in science and solving sticky problems.  I only cited a couple examples from Nobel laureates - there are many more!  Even Einstein wrote of how a dream about an ever accelerating sled ride down a mountain led him to the General Theory of Relativity.

I'm not the only one in my family who has dreamed solutions to problems being worked on.  My dad and his deceased brother both have experienced it time and again.

If we take one of the theories of the "purpose" of dreams at face value, (the one that says dreams are our mind's way of sorting through everything it has accumulated during the day,) it makes sense that this sorting process might dredge up relationships and connections we weren't making while awake.

There does seem to be a lot of support for that theory.

(This thread split at this point; see "Crazy Train" in Smoky Back Room for the off-topic posts.)

Along the lines of writing songs in dreams, I've had a few experiences like that. A couple of the most interesting ones were 'written' in someone else's voice. In one I was walking through a creepy abandoned hospital and a nonexistent Tom Waits song was playing over the PA. Perfectly Tom Waits to a T. Another was a song 'written' by a band mate that was perfectly him to a T also. I don't know that I could do that deliberately.

Sorry if I'm veering OT...