Hello everyone,

Great to see this is one of those topics that really gets people thinking

Hopefully I didn't come across too 'skeptical' in my previous post, I am well aware that my model of the universe is, like everyone's, highly subjective and constantly open to reevaluation upon new evidence.

I do feel though that skepticism (depending upon your definition of the word - mine being: 1. One who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons.) Is the best angle to approach subjects that are so open to this kind of subjectivity. It seems one of the problems with the English language is the multiple definitions of such words - "Skeptic" seems to have developed quite a few negative connotations over time, when in reality I feel that this is unwarranted as it seems really to lend itself to an attempt at objectivity much the way that the scientific method attempts this.

Starting with a neutral hypothesis, and leaning neither to one end of the spectrum or the other, accepting personal experience as subjective, We can research the potential objective aspects of the OBE experience. For example no one could argue that if to OBEers were to meet up in this 'other plane' and share otherwise unknown information, then something out of the ordinary is certainly taking place - however even such apparently amazing (and lets admit rare) event as this would still not PROVE the assumption that what had occurred was indeed an OBE. One would still have to assume the neutral position and look at the objective facts, those being; that two individuals had shared information by means that are currently beyond explanation. The information shared would itself need careful examination by independent nonbiased observers to check the content to be indeed 'the same" rather than simply similar. Of course this is massively over simplified and many more examples, test, checks etc. would still be vital to reach even the most timid conclusions.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't let ourselves get in the way of truth. Every day we encounter groups, religious or otherwise, that have allowed there subjective needs and wants to cloud the simple truth that just because we want something to be true doesn't make it so. The scientific method may be flawed, but as far as we know as humans it is still the best model we have for understanding and mapping the universe we inhabit. Yes maybe at times it is quite mind spankingly frustrating that science seems to ignore some of the fundamental questions we have as human beings, but this is down to how we run (and more importantly FUND - as the lucidity institute no doubt painfully recognizes) our scientists. Less motivation towards War and Wealth would no doubt right this madness and allow the great minds of science to research those beautiful, magical experiences and mysteries (and perhaps clean up the environmental mess that this, our home, the physical world (and as a matter of course our personal psychological worlds) has fallen into.

My subjective view is that as Lucid Dreamers we should use our Lucidity, our awareness, to cut through the wishful thinking and delusions of the world and try our best to keep this world, our beautiful - better than dreaming - creator of dreaming - world, a place that will allow us all the time in the future to discover these truths.

Until then I think we should argue little, explore a lot, but mostly, most vitally appreciate all the mysteries and the reason we have them at all - because our world, our home has given us the chance to do so.

I do hope that we one day discover that the human mind/soul can reach beyond the body. Until the day we can prove this, it is perhaps better to simply not state the experience as a 'truth' or for that matter as 'false' but simply as one of the little wonders of life, another question that needs real investigation. But if one day it proves that it was merely the awesome power of the human mind - that will to me anyhow, be just as beautiful,(moreso maybe?) just as wonderful as any other explanation.

hope I haven't gone on too much.

Sweet dreams.

Daniel.

By the way a big warm hello to Adrienne!

Hello Thomas & all,

I also have had a few experiences that I would say are OBEs. As you say, you can distinguish them due to the events taking place in the physical world as you see them from outside of your body.

One memorable one was when I could see myself napping on my couch and my cat came in the room meowing. I could see the digital clock by the couch, and it read 2:53 pm. I woke up to the cat meowing and checked the clock - it was indeed 2:53 pm.

I am a skeptic so I thought maybe my cats meowing could have induced a dream about my cat, but I could not explain "seeing" the exact time on the clock. I have only had a few events like this that I would call OBEs, for lack of a better way to describe or explain them.

Blue Topaz

Dear Oneironauts!

I fully agree with Daniel that it's exciting to have a conversation here that so stirs the curious minds of our dream-exploring friends. This is, in fact, one of those special topics that always launches participants at TLI's Dreaming & Awakening programs into hyper attention, to which Peter can attest!

While we're in the last few whirly weeks of preparing for the upcoming retreat and my time for personal response is severely crunched, I'd like to suggest that everyone interested in the fascinating topic of OBE read the elucidating article by LaBerge and Levitan at:

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

A couple of questions for further consideration/discussion on this topic and related reports:

1. For claims that the "seeing" takes place in the physical world during OBEs, how exactly is that supposed to work? Dream eyes are made of what?

2. Where are the state checks noted in these reports (double-reading of the clock time, for example)?

3. Is telepathy or synchronicity a possible explanation for what has been reported?

4. What is an IBE? ;)

Sweet, wild dreams to all, Keelin

PS: There's still time/room to join us for the Dreaming & Awakening retreat, by the way, but you'll have to bring your body along. ;)

Hi Daniel and all,

It's while since I've posted on here. The last time I did so I was just beginning to question whether some of my "false awakenings" might in fact be OBE's. And that's where I've been since, exploring this new avenue. I've had lucid dreams from the age of 13, gradually increasing from one or two per year to one or two per month and sometimes per week. I joined the lucidity institute, learned how to induce them, even had a few WILDS. My lucid dreams would for the most part be exciting, I would fly, go to the moon! Then a change occurred, I still had these, but less and less frequently, what I had instead were false awakenings. These would be "hyper real', usually with a stronger "sense of presence" than my lucid dreams. I have to admit I started to get a bit bored wandering about the house at night, ok I discovered I could walk through doors, but it was all a bit dull really! After numerous experiences and a steep learning curve, I eventually began to accept that these were, on some occasions at least OBE's, and proved it to myself using "targets', i.e. Randomly selected playing cards placed on high surfaces that I would "look" at out of body. People have suggested may be I seep walk and looked at them. I can't "prove" that I did not. This is not about proof. Sorry to perhaps be so unscientific! Whatever you may think of Monroe here, one valuable piece of advice from him is to try and leave belief systems behind, and to live through direct personal experience.

What I think for the time being is this: That it is possible to leave your physical body. The "nearest" area to this is what Robert Bruce calls the real time zone (i.e. where I most likely went during false awakenings). It is close enough to observe things here, but is not immune to "reality fluctuations'. Keelen asked what are we seeing with out of body, since no physical eyes. I don't know. But I get the impression that we are perceiving energy systems, and then "downloading" these experiences into a space-time media we can understand. Beyond the RTZ there are more "subtle" layers, what mystics have for centuries called the astral planes. Yes, I believe I have been "to the astral'. But proving that, even to myself? No easy task!

I find the distinction between OBE and lucidity very thin indeed. I've had dreams about astral projection; I've even had non-lucid dreams about being lucid! Can lucid dreams (internal realities?) turn into projections (external?) and vice versa?

One last thought. Has anyone here read the Holographic Universe? Here's a tiny taster if not:

"Everything is ultimately non-local, including consciousness. Thus, although our consciousness appears to be localized in our heads, under certain conditions it can just as easily appear to be localized in the upper corner of a room.'

So I agree, lets argue little and explore a lot:-)

Okay. I'll be the annoying moderator once more, and attempt to bend this conversation back toward lucid dreaming. Sorry!

Can we continue to argue and disagree, but do so as it relates to lucid dreaming? Otherwise we risk becoming one of those countless sites where every post is true because its writer says so, and the goals of this forum are irreversibly diluted in a warm soup of mystical good feeling. Though that route is not unpleasant, and could allow members to share their most heartfelt notions, it severely hampers our mutual pursuit of lucid dreams.

I'm not attempting to deny or support OBE's, or even to offer methods to prove their existence. Why? Because we are the Lucidity Institute, and not the Out of Body Institute. I'm also not attempting to curb the lively conversation - there is no doubt plenty to discuss about the relationship (or lack thereof) of OBE's to lucid dreaming. What we need to avoid is setting off on a faith-oriented anecdotal debate about the existence of OBE's in the first place.

I hope everyone understands, and that this exchange continues, but with the development of lucid dreaming in mind.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Caroline,

This is an excellent book. I read this while I was in the graduate program for theoretical physics and was so impressed by it that I gave a lecture on it to both students and faculty members. I am not going to bore everyone here with modern physics theories but there is one point I will make. The everyday person lives in, what I will call, a Newtonian world. This is a world that is full of solid objects. Your car, your hat, your hand all seem solid and discrete from each other. 99% of the people believe this to be true. Modern physics has proved that this is not the case. Everything is interconnected and nothing is solid. In fact the space that you're sitting in right now to read this post is essentially empty except for an inter-tangled web of energy fields that are absolutely not solid. It is the mind that creates the belief that the world (or universe) is made up of solid objects.

Sorry Peter, this is a definitely straying from the LD topic except to point out that the same modern science that brings us all of our marvels believes that the physical world is essentially made of same stuff as dreams.

Food for thought. Thomas

Thomas:

I apparently missed the headlines when Science declared that all matter is energy!

But seriously, when science scientifically discovers an interface that allows humanity easy access to the forces that hold matter together (beyond the sledgehammers of fission and fusion, of course), or at least really, really close, I'll be first in line for the subsequent revolution.

But until then, whether we like it or not, solid is still solid in our waking perception. There is currently no way around the basic fact that all of humanity, including that 1%, live in a Newtonian world, based on our current ability to navigate and manipulate reality.

That can and hopefully will change (I'm banking on nanotechnology and quantum research to combine for a mighty impact), and that change could come in our lifetimes. When it does, everything will change. That 99% you mention will be forced to alter their perception to accept a world defined not by Newtonian physics, but by the physics you describe. That acceptance will be a sort of psychic evolution.

Okay, here's where lucidity comes into play: When the change comes, it will be revolutionary. The first tidal wave of the new reality will strike three groups of people. The first group will be that 1%, who understand the new world and embrace their evolution. The second set will be a larger mass (but still relatively small) of thoughtful people who are willing to change their perceptions, but will face a tough struggle to part from the Newtonian world they grew up in, regardless of what the new interface proves to them. The third group, by far the most vast, will continue for generations to cling to their Newtonian world, fighting off evolution with a vengeance (look for a major resurgence of organized religion, for instance -- something that has already begun). I believe that experienced lucid dreamers within the second group will get an excellent boost toward the first group. This is because the lucid dreaming experience allows individuals to touch the post-Newtonian world now, during their dreams, and their perception will be better prepared.

So, though a perceived world as you describe is still very far off, our experience as lucid dreamers will better prepare us for the massive changes that its realization will incur.

Peter

P.S. In writing this, and rereading your post, I can't help but be reminded how close modern theoretical physics is to mysticism -- perhaps the two will meet one day!

Peter, The headline came in the early 1900s when two things happened:

1. Einstein formed the equation E=mc^2
2. Quantum Mechanics was born to show that particles are formed by a collapse of energy waves.

Again I am off the LD topic but consider the following: all that is necessary to view the world as energy is a shift in perspective. Sounds easy enough but how do we do it? The secret is in understanding how your senses work. Your eyes don't see objects. Instead they see an electromagnetic "interference pattern". The same is true of your sense of heat and temperature. Your ears and sense of touch are sensing a pressure wave interference pattern not a solid object. Waves are not made of matter; instead particles/matter can be defined as a specific type of wave pattern. It is the mind that holds the belief that this object is solid and discrete. The sea of waves has no boundaries and neither do any objects.

So there is one important fact: your senses work by using wave theory. I know that I am probably going way to deep here but there is one more fact about waves that ties it all together. Waves obey a law called the "principle of superposition". Instead of me trying to explain it here with just a few words, I encourage you to look it up in a basic physics book and then see if you can relate it to your senses.

Once you grasp these ideas there is a natural, awe inspiring shift in perspective of your everyday world.

I promise that my next post will be on LDs.

Thomas

Thomas:

Please excuse my earlier sarcasm, and yes, I am aware of Einstein and that matter and energy are related.

That said, I particularly regret the sarcasm because, based on your response, it caused you to not read the rest of my post. And that right there is the reason to avoid sarcasm!

What I was trying to say is that, currently, no matter what you believe or perceive about the true nature of physical reality, when you punch a wall in the waking world it will hurt. Currently.

That guarantee is subject to change, perhaps in the near future, and lucid dreaming might just help us regular uneducated folk deal with the revolution/evolution that will accompany that change.

Again, please forgive the indescretion,

Peter

I'm gonna start doing reality checks every time I make a decision based on non-newtonian physics. : )

Peter, I want to try to move this discussion back toward the concept of LDs and at the same time respond to your post.

You mentioned punching a wall in your last post. This made me think of the ability to move through solid objects in LDs. From my experience I have found that sometimes it is easy to move through a seemingly solid object during a LD and at other times I bang into the wall just as I would in waking life.

Now the question is "Is there anything that physics can tell us that can make moving through solid objects more of sure thing in LDs"?

Before I mention an extremely cool event that commonly happens in quantum mechanics, let's talk about the LD experience first.

I think most people here, including myself, believe that LDs are a construct of the mind; an illusion of sorts. Also, I think most of us believe that the ability to move through an object is directly related to your belief that you can do so. So now the question becomes something like, "what does it mean to believe that you can do it?" or maybe a better way of putting it is, "when I form a belief that I can pass through a wall, what is actually happening that allows me to do so?".

Now let's look to physics for a possible solution. The first fact is that illusions are made up of the same energy as everything else is. A mirage is not void of energy; it is simply a misinterpretation of the energy patterns before us. So physics would say that dreams are energy patterns whether created by the mind or not.

Now consider a quantum effect called "tunneling". An electron hits an energy wall over and over again and bounces off just as a tennis ball would bounce off of a brick wall. But every so often something funny happens, the electron passes through the wall as though there was nothing in its path. Physicists actually believe that if you threw a tennis ball against a brick wall a couple of trillion times that at least once the ball would pass through totally unhindered. Physicists have discovered the mechanism that allows the electron to pass through the wall and are theorizing ways to control it. The mechanism is called resonance. Remember that physicists believe that everything has a wave nature to it: the electron, the energy wall, the tennis ball and the brick wall included. Resonance occurs when two wave forms are acting in harmony with each other and not interfering with one another. You can say that both are vibrating at the same frequency or at least at complimentary frequencies.

Now back to LDs. What if belief causes the energies of mind to kind of align with each other and resonate with each other. This would be very interesting indeed.

As always I like to take thought experiments like this and form them into actual LD experiments. The next time I try to pass through a wall and fail during a LD, instead of getting frustrated or banging the wall over and over again, I am going to place my hand on the wall and try to feel its vibrations. Once I feel them I am going to try to cause the energy of my hand to vibrate at the same frequency and see if my hand gently falls through. If this works it will bring a powerful new tool to dream control theory.

Thanks for inspiring creativity.

Thomas

P.S. Sorry that I get so carried away with physics but I can't help it. I will try to refrain from going any deeper.

HELLO TO ALL

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE IF YOU FULLY BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. I HAVE NEVER HAD PROBLEM WITH PASSING THROUGH THE WALL IN LDS EVEN WHEN MY LUCIDITY WAS TACIT. THERE IS A CRUCIAL THING TO MAKE YOU PASS THROUGH. YOU NEED TO CONCENTRATE AND THEN SLOWLY PUT YOUR HAND FIRST AND MOVE INTO. OR YOU CAN SIMPLY CONCENTRATE, STOP BREATHING AND JUMP INTO THE WALL. IF YOU CONCENTRATE ENOUGH, YOU WILL SURELY PASS THROUGH. THE WALL AS THE WATER ITSELF HAS ITS BUOYANCY IN DREAMS, BUT WE MUST USE OUR WILL TO SURPASS IT.

NENAD

Very interesting post, Thomas. I am not normally one to comment on OBEs, collective unconscious,or physics for that matter, but this makes me think of quarks. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I get the idea that you know much more about this than I do.) Before quarks, physists believed that nothing could effect anything else without some kind of contact and that there was no relation between two things that didn't involve some kind of particle or wave interaction across space and time. (I know I'm way out of my field, so pat me on the head and send me home if need be.) But quarks do just what they aren't supposed to do--two ..um.. things, or one thing that exsists in two places, change simultaneously without any apparent interaction through space and time. Since we know its possible for that to happen at a sub-atomic level, it makes me wonder, how possible is it that this is just the tip of something that is going on that would lend some support to something like collective unconscious (simultaneous changes occuring within our minds) or even OBEs (two entities exsisting in two different places).

Philosophically, I am a Scientist with a capital S, but that also means I have to keep my mind open to the new possibilities. I'm not ready to step out of my 'newtonian' view of lucid dreams, but, hmmmmmmmm.

Peter, I mentioned lucid dreams. There it is, two lines up. : )

Gordon:

And hey, you even mentioned OBE's! That gets you above par for staying on subject in this thread!

Peter

Gordon,

We're getting a little too deep for the LD discussion. The phenomena you are mentioning is also characteristic of electron pairs so I will use that word as it is a little less foreign to folks. It has been indirectly shown that under certain circumstances a pair of electrons can be produced that seem to have some direct influence over each other no matter what the distance is between them. By manipulating one of the electrons in the pair the other will go through an instantaneous change in state even if the electrons are at the opposite sides of the universe. There have actually been some conceptual designs for using this phenomena for space communications in which astronauts many light years away could instantaneously communicate with people on earth and visa versa. Interesting stuff but definitely a long way off from being understood.

Thomas

Hello all!

I've been reading the above postings recently with great interest, but have been unable really to add any experiences of my own regarding the possible links between LD and OBE's.

However, I can provide a cast iron incident that may serve to actually seperate the two.

Several years ago, a friend of my father's married. He had, for many years, claimed that during the night, on many occasions, he would leave his bed / body, and fly around at night, visiting people etc. He had total control over events, but he HAD to return to his body before about 6.30am, before he 'woke up'. Although he knew not why he had to come back before this time, he somehow knew it to be of the utmost importance, and thus never failed to do so.

Now, this brought him no end of mockery and 'Superman' jokes for many years from his colleagues (of whom my father was one). He maintained that it happened and would never budge, simply shrugging off the jokes.

The comparisoms with Lucid Dreaming are obvious. Was he LD'ing with regularity?

However, when he married, his wife reported that, on some nights, she would wake to find him rigid as a board. If she touched him, electric or static sparks would fly from his body to her hand. She was always unable to wake him. In addition, twice, the individual concerned appeared before friends / close family during the night. On each occasion, upon waking, he would remember where he had been, and these 'appearances' were later proven correct in timing and nature.

My father and his friends stopped teasing him about it at this point.

I've posted this here simply because, in light of this discussion, I thought it might be helpful to describe a case where LD's and OBE's were almost certainly separated. It is the only time I have ever actually known somebody who has experienced an OBE, and even then it was my father who told me the story originally.

Personally, I believe it 100%. In regard to the mentioning of quarks / electron pairs, perhaos sometimes it IS possible to exist in two places at once, in whatever form.

Dean

Dean, Incredibly interesting! I would love to have a conversation with your father's friend. Maybe you could talk him into joining our forum here.

In addition to physics I also have a deep interest in Qigong (internal energy development). In my study I have come across Taoist practices that claim, not only to be able to develop the ability to leave the body but also to "appear in space" in multiple places simultaneously.

Thomas

Wow, I've been away from the web for a week and suddenly all these posts!

I must say Keelin is quite right in her suggestion to read the article by LaBerge and Levitan, If you haven't read it yet then do!!! it really helps clarify just exactly what it is we are discussing... here's the link again to save any wrist strain

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

It is interesting and perhaps telling(as this article points out) that so many OBEs seem to be experienced via identical or very similar senses to the ones we use whilst in our bodies.

When you consider how functionally restrained our senses are, evolving as they have for specific evolutionary tasks rather than for simple entertainment. It seems slightly odd that our out of body bodies don't partake in a little Ultra violet, infra red or the like (come to think of it this would certainly be an interesting avenue to explore via lucid dreams!)

Again i recommend this article whole heartedly.

Oh, one other thing, If anyone has any links to any sites that discuss the physics as discussed above, would be much appreciated if you could post them. Much of this stuff is fascinating, but lets not forget some is still highly controversial and exploratory.

In a similar field and i think relevant to our discussions (and like Gordon I'm no expert in this field (physics) by any means) there is the old 'light being a wave AND a particle' problem...

perhaps this is just a problem with language rather than 'reality', I'll try to explain

If you take the 'is' out of the English language (a method named e-prime) many of our Paradoxes dissolve. The wave/particle problem for instance:

Light(electrons) is a wave Light(electrons) is a particle

or e-prime:

Light(electrons) can be measured as a wave when using certain apparatus.

Light(electrons) can be measured as a particle when using certain apparatus.

Another example:

John is lethargic and unhappy.

in e-prime:

John appears lethargic and unhappy in the office.

More? ...

John is bright and cheerful.

in e prime:

John appears bright and cheerful on holiday at the beach.

I'm no expert on this use of language but I'll put a link at the end of the post for those who want to know a little more.

I think this way of thinking can really help when discussing these subjects. It removes the solidity from the language and creates a more flowing,adaptive and most importantly detailed form of expression. Reality as we are all well aware is not a world of 'its' and 'things' but more a world of relationships in ever changing circumstances. This relates to lucid dreaming/OBEs etc in simply our ability to communicate details. The more details we have, the nearer (but perhaps never fully, by the very nature of language,reality and time) we come to the truth. Also it helps in expressing the subjective nature of experience that can otherwise be missed in less detailed "is" filled language.

All this talk of detail and i have probably left out far too much. Here is a useful link to understanding e-prime: (Do check it out as you may find it a quite fascinating concept...)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm

I'd imagine I've made all kinds of e-prime mistakes in this post alone, but hopefully the point comes across (and i haven't contradicted myself too much)

Hope this helps.

Sweet dreams.

Daniel.

HI Dreamers! I have been reading these posts and they have been very interesting.. On the subject of [ OBEs] I cant fully agree on some opinions mabey I can partialy..The first argumemt about [obes] being just a dream sounds a bit limiting and hollow..to say let the scientists prove or disprove the existance of these great experiances.I personaly think science as it is now is full of flaws and canot stand up against the greater knowledge of our god given universe... Before getting interested in lucid dreaming I spent 4 years documenting paranormal happenings.And Ive experianced things that would be hard for most people to prove,But personaly I have had strange things happen to me awake and asleep in dreams that where telepathic in nature. So to me as an open minded person Iwould see [Obes] as seperate experiances from dreams concidering yoga masters have tranced for days into the astral relm before returning to the waking world.. And I think lucid dreams have more to offer us when we dont force our personal programs on them.. [Obes] in my limited opinion are like what happens in a near death experiance and cant be shot down as dreams although they may be related? Well Im running out of time please add your opinions thank you...

Hello to all!

Well I have read the investigation about connections between OBE and LD. The conclusion is that an OBE might be a WILD. Nothing else, not stranger or different than a WILD.

But I have a question... I guess someone must have heard about people "travelling" around the houses where they were dreaming, going to other rooms and listening conversations that were actually taking place at the time their physical body was just lying in bed... isn't this very different from LD? more resembling something, let's say stranger, like OBE? I mean, in a case like this, it seems that something much more different than LD is taking place, something like (just to put a name to it) astral travel, or telepathy.

Also there is people that has experiences like: being sleeping in their bed in Italy, and at the same time in the other side of the world: Venezuela, (with the 6 hours difference for the meridian distance), her mother saw her walking on the highway... which is "impossible" since the mother was in Venezuela and the daughter in Italy. And the hour when she was sleeping and the mother saw her match perfectly.

Is there any scientific explanation for this?

I hope somebody has an answer, or an approach. Thank you!!!!