Hi all,

A question: how many of us are acquainted with what OBEers call the "vibratory state", and use it as an entry point into lucid dreams? In occult lore these "vibrations" (usually a strong buzzing or "electrical" sensation accompanied by loud ringing and/or cracking and howling noises and sometimes flashing lights -- it can be quite an unnerving experience the first time around!) lead, in a successful "projection" to the "astral plane"; in other words the vibratory state (or VS as I call it in my journals) is a hallmark of an out-of-body experience (particularly because the oneironaut often ends up in his or her own bedroom, floating mysteriously above what looks like his or her own body, which is understandably disorienting). There appears to be no strong consensus, in scientific circles, whether OBEs are in fact lucid dreams -- for one thing, they seem to have a more specific pattern to them (apparent position outside of the body, and frequently VS), and for another the OBEer tends to consider his/her experience as "real", which by definition would separate the OBE from the lucid dream. My angle on the matter is of course that LDs and OBEs are just two ways of looking at the same phenomenon -- having had hundreds of LD/OBEs in the last year I've found nothing, apart from the peculiar "vibrational" mode of entry, to distinguish an OBE from any other "major" LD state (more on that in another post) -- and it puzzles me that LD researchers still speak for the most part only of a "possible/probable connection" between LDs and OBEs. It seems a bit like classifying books by color rather than content; in my opinion the oft-cited differences between LD and OBE states are easily explained as consequences of two different roads into the LD/OBE state: the common faith of OBEers in the reality of their "projections" is not an essential characteristic of the out-of-body state itself (only in my very earliest "VSILD"s did I entertain a metaphysical theory, much as in my childhood LDs I knew that I was in a "dream" state but also believed that the experience was in some sense "real" -- a kind of meeting with God -- and later grew out of this belief) but rather a simple consequence of the individual's belief system, coupled with the almost incredible vividness of the phenomenon and the first-person experience of rising out of one's body directly from a waking state. A DILD, in contrast, is entered from a dream, which people generally consider unreal, so it seems more natural to believe that this "enhanced" dream state is also not real -- the dream environment in a DILD is also necessarily more at odds with known reality than in an OBE, where you usually get a fairly true-to-life depiction of your actual physical surroundings. So, back to my original question, what is our experience, as lucid dreamers as opposed to astral projectors, with this "vibratory state"? My personal theory is that the VS-initiated OBE is an incidental consequence of a sort of neurological "static" (a useful analogy is the self-amplifying squeal of a microphone held too close to its speaker) -- something akin to a seizure perhaps -- which can completely disrupt a person's sensory environment, allowing it to be replaced by an LD "virtual reality". But this is only half of an explanation...

Dream on,

Josh

Josh,

I am not acquainted with the "vibratory state."

Nibbana

Dear Josh

I can't remember noises or flashes. But on the border of waking and dreaming I often percept different sensations of my body. I call it "moving of the astral body, while aware of the sleeping physical body."I have experimented with this. I had the experience, that I could for a short time change my point of view into the vibrating astral body. I have often thought, that if I only sink deep enough into sleep with alert mind, I could find in the deepest sea an entrance into another world. And I have tried to provoke OOBEs this way. But until now, it didn't work.

There are other experiences, that lead me to distinguishing between LD and OOBE. It is the feeling of beeing drawn out of a dream into the physical body. I did not have this sensation for a long time, but it frightend me. In my childhood I didn't like to sleep on my back. I had the impression, that this produced nightmares and this experience of falling back.

My body - sensation during LD is different. In one of my first LDs I tried to fall through the floor. I qoute this dream, because it felt very real. My body felt real, the ground felt hard, as in waking life. Just when my head touched the ground, I woke up in the same position I have been in the last moment of the dream (not on my back). But there was no feeling of being drawn back or of falling into my physical body. It was only a sudden change of the visual enviroment.

LDs (NDs) and OOBEs have a lot in common: They arouse out of a state of sensory deprivation. And - as far as I am informed by literature - both states seem to be made of models of physical world and body by the "dreammachine". In both states oneironauts are able to influence the enviroment by will. In my opinion, LDs and OOBEs have more in common, than they differ from each other. But I have rare longer OOB -experience. I can't actually say, how the difference feels.

The subject grows more complex, if I include ESP: On one hand there is a loss of sensory input through physical body, on the other hand there may be a gain of information through ESP. Isn't this real? I am shure, that you have read about shared dreams. Referring to your first LD, that you have posted, I think, that there is scientific support (maybe no actual evidence) for the possibility of shared (telepathic) dreams. And why don't we meet in an astral school to improve our oneironautical abilities? It's a long term goal of mine to experiment with shared dreams. I'm eager to create consent about dreaming reality, I'm eager to proove, that dreaming is not only inside the brain, but another way to experience the world.

On the subject of metaphysical theories: I know, how it hurts. When my wonderful connection to a spiritual world slowly or suddenly fades away. When it seems to turn into a delusion, while I am facing new scientific evidence about how the world actually works. Where is the room, the place of the ONE, the highest beeing, the angels, the not physical embodied spiritual teachers? Where is the masterplan engraved? How can I include scientific reseach and believe in reincarnation? One of my projects is to create an overview of evolution since (and "before") big bang including scientific and spiritual theories. I refer to following sources (and many more): Ken Wilber "Up from Eden", Michael Murphy "The Future of the Body", Fritjof Capra "Das Tao der Physik", Joseph Cambell, latest experiments in ESP and PK (the German IGPP), some late sources of experiments in quantum physics and their interpretation (David Deutsch "Fabric of Reality"). This project is in progress, but I found support for building up metaphysical theories using results of scientific research. There is no need for contradiction. In my opinion science opens doors leading to rooms of distinct understanding of our experiences. It opens ways to put our dreams and our reality to proof. In my opinion the quantum -web has the potential to serve as a medium of connection (ESP/PK), as a medium for "saving" information (clairvoyance of the past, Akasha Chronicle) and maybe this "information" has the ability to evolve inside this quantum level and to be "reloaded" into an atomar ("physical") level (reincarnation).

Maybe this theories are not new for you. But I take delight in speculating. While writing this, my thoughts and goals become clearer. It is a good lesson for me to express myself in English. I have to be simple.

I agree, that LD can do strange things to your mind. You have to be open - minded to experience it, and your mind (and maybe your heart) gets more open, while doing it.

I wish you a wonderful REALITY (the WORLD is already wonderful)

Yours

Ralf

Hi Ralf

Thanks for your long and interesting post. I think I can relate to your "moving of the astral body" though with me it usually occurs along with VS. Once in a while I experience tiny WILDs where I sit up or otherwise move my body, only to "snap back" a moment later to find I haven't really moved at all. Or, in my favorite (and very rare) mode of entry I instantaneously "shift" out of my body (metaphorically speaking) into the void, without a body or even a sense of position in space. I'm curious what you mean by "falling back into your body"... do you mean at the end of the OBE, or is this yet another hard-to-describe OBE sensation? One common characteristic of VSILD (or OBE) which never occurs in DILDs or other WILDs are peculiar bodily sensations, anomolous forces, strangely distorted but vivid sensations and lack of control over certain bodily movements. You might consider these distinguishing characteristics of the OBE, although I've observed them to be closely related to the "vibrations" which allow access to the state, and for this reason tend to consider them VS phenomena rather than OBE phenomena. For I have had VSILDs which are not OBEs, and OBEs which have not involved VS. More important to me than mode of entry is what, if the language allowed it, I would call "majorness": I've found that extreme vividness (what Alan Worsley calls a "superlucid dream") and LD "solidity" (that is, when the dream environment is not easily influenced by the will alone, much as in waking life) go hand in hand, and call such a very vivid and solid LD state a "major LD", whereas more "dreamlike" and plastic states are "minor LDs". It's still a spectrum, of course, but a very useful one. For one thing, most (but not all) OBEs are major, whereas most "lucid dreams" (but not all) appear to be minor, which helps explain a lot of the reported differences. Another telltale sign of a more major LD is a sudden shift in or out of the state (whereas one often drifts in and out of lucidity in a minor LD). An example: when I was a kid (a little older than when I used to have the religious major LDs) I used to have a lot of dog nightmares, which I eventually put an end to by realizing that I was dreaming, facing the terrible slavering hellhound who was out to get me, and letting it devour me. I never had another nightmare about dogs. While this was technically a lucid dream, I don't really consider it such: compare this with a new dog dream I had just a few months ago, this one a major LD. In this VSILD I got up out of bed, went upstairs and found myself under attack by two vicious dobermans. I fought them vigorously for about a minute, tried in vain to "will" them away as I would in a minor LD and then decided I'd had enough; I'd let them devour me as I had in that old nightmare, and then perhaps I could get on with some of my experiments. What a mistake! Pain was as real "here" as in waking life, and when this brute of a dog sank its teeth into my waist it was incredibly painful. I was obliged to continue fighting the dogs, receiving a couple of nasty bites on my hand along the way, until the LD mercifully collapsed about another minute later. I don't know about dream ESP; I have had many experiences which are hard to interpret as the results of mere chance (yes, like my first LD in California), but then again coincidences do happen... I know I would very much like a metaphysical reality, even as a scientist, but need less anecdotal proof to really believe in it. Quantum physics leaves room for so many fantastic possibilities :-) Good luck on your "evolution of evolution" project, and mind-expanding lucid dreams to you,

Josh

Hi, Josh

Thanks for your prompt reply.

"Falling back into your body": That was long ago. I felt myself falling from a height of ~ 1,5m into my body, lying on the back, sleeping (but now awake and frightend). This happend most often while on the way inte sleep in the beginning of the night. But it occured during the later hours of sleep, too. I interpret this experience being the end of a non - lucid, not recallable OOBE. Maybe the shock of falling and awaking sweeped out memory. I believe, that this non - lucid OOBEs happen very often. But most people (like me) don't remember. I ask myself, why I don't remember these experiences nowadays. I remember many dreams, but no OOBEs.

"Shift into the void": I once spent some time with a girl, who called herself "witch". She reported to have OOBEs at will. But she didn't visit a visual enviroment. She always shifted into the void. We had some astonishing experiments in OOBE and telepathy. It seemed, that she had the ability to lift my astral body. But no entire take - off happend. My astral body felt always as being glued with a point in the physical neck. I wasn't able to let myself go...

VS - OBE - LD: In my opinion it makes sense to seperate this states. I almost always seem to go through the onset of VS (as described in my last email) while doing relaxation exercise. But I'm focussing on exercise, not on VS. Later on, after the exercise, the "VS - mood" has faded. Hypnagogic imagery occurs. My perception is shifting: Either aware of the pysical body, or (still) lost in a dreamlet without awareness of the sleeping body. You seem to go much deeper into VS, than I do.

I have just done the excercise with 61 points of relaxation. For the first time, I could attend to them in a row, I have been able to keep the focus all the time. Yeah! I'm very proud. Afterwards, I set my focus to VS, inspired by our mails. After some time I had a solid perception of a fold inside the room ~ 50 cm above my body. It ran parallel to my spine, until - above my feet - it did a curve upwards. Then it got lost in the wide space. It felt also as a way. I focussed on this way. While foccussing, I felt my astral body being pulled towards this fold. The harder I was pulled, the more I felt a tension in my forehead and neck. "Same, as it ever was". That's what I thought. I choose to adress the "dreammachine": "Please show this tension as a human being." It was the Death. "What do you have to say?" "Die!". I thought about it. Again, this is my challenge: Surrendering. "Please help me dying." Mr. Death was laughing at me. I interpreted: Sooner or later he is going to get me, in any way. I repeated my request. He began to cut me into pieces. This released my tension, but not entirely. I stopped the experiment. I felt, that I had already passed the point of take - off. But I felt well relaxed.

My interpretation: I was at an entrance to OBE, but still not able to let go of my physical body. Do you have any advice? Nibbana already gave me the wothful hint to trust in the Higher Self and be calm. Thank you once again.

Major/minor LD and OBE:

Another separation, that makes sense. But my experiences in OBE are to poor to contribute. My experience in LD is growing. I believe, that there is a way to stabilize LD state, i.e. a way to make minor LD become major. Your VSILD concerning dogs is very interesting. It leaves me with the question, how detailed the virtual reality of dreams/OBE can get. This reminds me of another subject: The OBE - worlds of Werner Zurfluh. If you haven't already, try his page: http://www.surselva.ch/oobe/index.htm He experienced real dangers exploring his worlds. His reports are causing uncertainty: If they are "objective", my reality is very small.

(Dream) ESP: Here you may find less anecdotal proof: http://www.IGPP.de/

The following is a text, I downloaded last year:

Subliminale und telepathische Beeinflussung von Phantasie und Traum

Projektleiter: Prof. Dr. Inge Strauch Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter: Dipl.-Psych. Martin Meier Anschrift: Psychologisches Institut, Abteilung Klinische Psychologie, Schmelzbergstr. 40, CH-8044 Z'rich

16 Versuchspersonen-Paare verbrachten zwei N'chte im Schlaflabor. In der einen Nacht wurde der Sender supraliminal, in der anderen Nacht subliminal stimuliert. In einer Nacht wurden bis zu f'nf Weckungen vorgenommen, wobei pro Weckung verschiedene zuf'llig ausgew'hlte Zielbilder verwendet wurden. Die Weckungen wurden abwechselnd aus den Stadien REM oder NREM vorgenommen. Pro Weckung wurden die formalen, farblichen und emotionalen Aspekte vom Sender in bezug auf das Zielbild und vom Empf'nger in bezug auf die Traumberichte erhoben. Zus'tzlich waren die Empf'nger aufgefordert, vier Bilder (das Zielbild und drei Distrakoren) bez'glich ihrer "bereinstimmung zum Traumbericht einzustufen.

In einem weiteren Teil des Projekts wird der Einfluss formaler, farblicher und emotionaler Aspekte von subliminal pr'sentierten Bildern auf Wachphantasien untersucht.

Gegenw'rtiger Stand und erste Resultate: Die Datenerhebung f'r das Traum-Telepathie-Projekt ist mit der Fremdeinstufung der Tr'ume abgeschlossen. Mit der Datenerhebung zur Untersuchung des Einfluss subliminal pr'sentierter Vorlagen auf Wachphantasien wurde k'rzlich begonnen. Erste Resultate deuten darauf hin, dass das Stadium REM im Vergleich zum Stadium NREM einen telepathischen Informationstransfer beg'nstigt. Weiter scheint sich ein subliminal stimuliertes telepathisches Senden vorteilhaft auf das telepathische Geschehen auszuwirken

Study of Fundamental Properties of Psychokinesis

Leader of the Project: Dr. Helmut Schmidt Research associate: Kathy Dalton Address: Institute of Noetic Sciences, 475 Gate Five Road, Suite 300, Sausalito, California 94965, USA

Psychokinesis (PK) experiments with pre-recorded random events suggest that PK violates one of our most basic assumptions about nature, the law of causality, governing the time sequence between cause and effect. In the experiments the outcomes of chance events were first stored in computer memory. Only later did the PK subjects receive feedback on the stored data while trying to affect the outcomes. The successful results suggest that the subject's PK effort could reach backwards into the earlier time when the random events were generated and recorded. Borrowing ideas from quantum theory, however, one might also argue that, perhaps, the outcome of the pre-recorded random decisions had no absolute reality until the PK subject observed the outcomes in the PK session. Then PK would not have to reach back in time but would create reality out of a still uncertain situation. Our experiment tries to distinguish between these two view points by having two subjects make subsequent PK efforts on the same pre-recorded events. Then in the first picture, both subjects should have comparable effects on the outcome, but from the other view, only the first subject should have an effect, because the second subject would find an absolutely real situation with nothing more to change.

P.S. These files have last been updated 1998.

Thank you very much for this interesting "conversation".

Yours

Ralf

On the subject of vibration, yes I have experienced what I call a hum/buzz noise/sensation before "leaving my body" in an OBE. Unlike in lucid dreams, I have the distinct sensation of a second body actually leaving the physical body and floating around the room, or wherever I will it to. My OBE and dream bodies feel very different from each other,and I find more convincing explanations in the yogic theory of physical, subtle,and causal bodies, rather than scientific theories which do not admit to the existence of anything but a physical body, and therefore need to explain OBE sensations in other terms, for example, lucid dreams.

I am convinced, however, that the OBE experience, at least my experience, does have dream elements, but since I am also aware, in particular, of noises actually going on in the waking or "real" environment, I know I am not asleep but in some other altered state of consciousness which I can't explain, but know as "waking" rather than "dreaming".

Joan

Dear Ralf and Joan

Many thanks for your posts. This morning I got to sleep in past 6:30 for the first time in a week, and voila! I had an OBE. One of the nice things about lucid dreaming is that it's like riding a bicycle; once you learn how, all you need is the usual measure of good luck to get back on track, even when Real Life has interrupted your practise for days or weeks at a time. Today the VS was accompanied by a curious little tune playing softly but crisp and clear in the background, which has never happened before. This is actually pretty interesting: if the bizarre (and entirely un-human) sounds of VS are a consequence of a major disturbance in the auditory centers of the brain, what is it that allowed this little song to play so clearly while my sense of hearing was otherwise drowned in ringing, crackling chaos? You can gain real insight into the nature of the mind and brain from inconspicuous little details like this...

Ralf, your experiences following the "61 points of relaxation" exercise remind me of the shamanic journeys my mother practises. From what I can infer this is a hypnagogic state quite distinct from LD/OBE, but very interesting in itself. I've tried "journeying" a few times using my mother's technique, but without much success; my LD habits seem to get in the way in the induction stage.

Regarding my usual method of "projection" through VS, I usually just play it by ear these days (this morning I neglected to use any (conscious) method at all, and the VS was patient enough to let me "out" anyway) but there are certainly some directions you might want to look in. Most importantly you must be able to forget your body for a few moments while you "disconnect", and you should know how to intensify the VS. The way to do so is with what I call "passive amplification" -- by this I mean undivided concentration on the sensations of VS (particularly the audiovisual aspects; focusing on haptic sensations can easily draw your attention to an awareness of your body in general, which is exactly what you don't want) with the aim of intensifying them but without imposing your will; effort tends to kill anything but pretty strong VS. In other words, allow yourself to become very carried away with what sensations you're experiencing, and in VS they will tend to become much stronger, but never try to make them stronger. After a short while (perhaps ten seconds) you'll want to "pull out" of VS and into the virtual reality which will soon be prepared for you -- sometimes you experience an unmistakeable "shift" which tells you you've disconnected, but in general you'll just have to develop a feeling for the proper time to get up and open your virtual eyes. Or perhaps you'll simply fly out involuntarily as many OBEers appear to do; my methods are of course specific to my own psychology and physiology, but perhaps you'll find something helpful in them.

Many thanks for the links and the research summaries. Why didn't anyone tell me that there's a dream laboratory in Zurich? :-) Yes, I've read a couple of Zurfluh's OBE/LD accounts -- they make wonderful stories (I'm thinking in particular of the "wilde Heer"), I mean to read more of them some time, as well as a bit more about Zurfluh himself to help decide what I should make of them. In my experience there is no such thing as real danger in LDs/OBEs; there certainly can be real pain, but one always gets up, physically untouched, from bed afterwards. In the event that there is some objective reality to the LD/OBE state, then one would expect some real danger...

Joan: while most of my OBEs appear to be entirely dissociated from external reality (I usually OBE in a pretty quiet place, early in the morning, so I don't have a lot of info. on that), sometimes "real" data do penetrate into the simulation or, what's even more interesting, they are not only distorted but actually re-interpreted and woven into the simulation as a whole. Anyone who's used the NovaDreamer (which doesn't include me, yet) will be familiar with this. I sometimes sleep with my eyes open, and have had major DILDs where I actually see the room I'm "sleeping" in, but from a different angle or in wildly contorted shapes. Spontaneous OBEs (say, while walking or driving) and NDEs seem to take this element to extremes, simulating a dynamic environment, relatively undistorted, in real time. There is, of course, no way to disprove the "astral" interpretation, though.

Josh

Hi, Josh and Joan and fellow oneironauts

Josh. Lately, I remembered your advice in an important situation:

"I'm working on deep relaxation (the 61 points exercise) to get ready for a WILD. My aim is to dissolve my attention from normal focus in the forehead. I succeed. The focus is near the diaphragma now. I'm deeply relaxed. Suddenly there is a very loud noise. And I feel beeing pulled out of physical body. I'm asthonished and remember your advice to focus on the sound, not on the body. After some shifting in focus and noise intensity my left lower leg gets "doubled". My physical body lies on the right side. But the "astral" left lower leg stands on the surface of the bed. I feel the matress benath my "astral" foot, at the same time I feel my physical lower leg lying on the right side. The sound is very loud, now. I'm frightend. As soon as I loose the focus, the sound stops and I'm back in usual borders."

I did not have a dreamlike feeling during this experience. I have been aware of the physical environment, too. Like sound of cars outside or "tick tack" produced by a clock. This convinces me to distinguish between LD and OBE state (onset).

Thanks for your advice

Yours

Ralf

Hi Everyone,

Here are a couple of articles on OBEs and LDs that you might find helpful. Keep in mind that Out-of- Body Experiences are just that -- EXPERIENCES!!! Whether or not a part of us actually leaves the body remains to be determined; however, so far the evidence in hand, supports a more complex theory, rather than the simplified theory of leaving the body.

http://www.lucidity.com/VOLDE.html http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Have fun discovering! Nathen

Hi Ralf,

Cool experience. Yes, I believe that OBE (or AP) is different from LD. I believe that you were not in a dream state. The symptoms you had (loud noise) are typical separation symptoms. I am working hard on my LDing in hopes that I can eventually convert an LD into a full-on OBE/AP. I have heard many, many people say that the OBE/AP feels very non-dreamlike. Frankly, I'm confused as to why so many people are anxious to convince the world that an OBE is just a dream.

I had my third LD last night, although it was brief. I'm really enjoying my new discoveries! Keep up the good work Ralf, and keep us all posted on your progress.

love, light, and lucidity, Kristina

Kristina asks "why so many people are anxious to convince the world that an OBE is just a dream"? Actually, the opposite seems closer to the case! The phrase "just a dream" is the key, I believe. When I say an OBExperience is a sort of dream, I mean that almost by definition: all experience as a mental construction is a sort of dream. Certainly, therefore no trivialization is intended, as implied by the phrase "just a dream"! The question is: what sort of dream? When one experiences oneself as "out of body" does one have any different capacities than if one experiences oneself as "having a dream"?

I suggest that you read the references Nathen suggested above as well as Chapter 9 from LUCID DREAMING: DREAMING ILLUSION AND REALITY, also on our website: htt p://www.lucidity.com/LD9DIR.html

Here's what it says in the FAQ:

"1.3'' HOW ARE LUCID DREAMS RELATED TO OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES (OBEs)?

A mysterious and highly controversial phenomenon sometimes occurs in which people experience the compelling sensation that they have somehow "left their bodies." The "out-of-body experience" or "OBE", as this fascinating phenomenon is usually termed, takes a variety of forms. In the most typical, you are lying in bed, apparently awake, when suddenly you experience a range of primarily somatic sensations, often including vibrations, heaviness, and paralysis. Then you experience the vivid sensation of separating from your "physical body" in what feels like a second body, often floating above the bed.

It is important to note the distinction between the phenomenal reality of the OBE and the various interpretations of the experience. What is really happening when you feel yourself "leaving your body"? According to one school of thought, what is actually happening is just what it feels like: you are moving in a second body out of and away from your physical body--in physical space. But this "explanation" doesn't hold up very well under examination. After all, the body we ordinarily feel ourselves to be (or if you like, to inhabit) is a phenomenal or mental body rather than a physical body. The space we see around us is not physical space as "common sense" tells us, but as modern psychology makes clear, a phenomenal or mental space. In general, our consciousness is a mental model of the world.

OBE enthusiasts promote lucid dreaming as a "stepping stone" to the OBE. Conversely, many lucid dreamers have had the experience of feeling themselves "leave the body" at the onset of a lucid dream. From a laboratory study, we have concluded that OBEs can occur in the same physiological state as lucid dreams. Wake-initiated lucid dreams (WILDs) were three times more likely to be labeled "OBEs" than dream initiated lucid dreams. If you believe yourself to have been awake, then you are more likely to take the experience at face value and believe yourself to have literally left your physical body in some sort of mental or "astral" body floating around in the "real" physical world. If, on the other hand, you think of the experience as a dream, then you are likely to identify the OBE body as a dream body image and the environment of the experience as a dream world. The validity of the latter interpretation is supported by observations and research on these phenomena. "

More Light! Stephen

Hi Kristina,

Good luck with achieving your goal of having OBEs! The most effective way to have an OBE by lucid dreaming is through WILDs. More often than not WILDs are preceded by strange phenomena such as vibrations, tingling, paralyzation, strange noises, electric shocks, floating, and the feeling of an other body separating from the physical body.

I can verify from my hundreds of OBEs, that these are one of the more fascinating experiences of lucid dreaming. The fact that OBEs occur during REM sleep, does not in the least lessen their significance for me.

BTW are you aware that astral projection theory claims that all dreams are astral projection? Astral projection is an experience that experientially takes place in a body other than the physical body. So you are already having OBEs, just not ones of the most fascinating kind!

Nathen

Hi Stephen and Nathen,

Thank you for your most interesting comments. I will read all the links provided. I like to think I have an open mind, but I get a little upset when I hear people try to convince others that their experiences weren't real. I haven't had an official "OBE" or "AP" yet, but the descriptions thereof seem to be very different from LDs. I'm sure I can speak more intelligently about it after I've had an OBE/AP for myself. In the meantime, I will keep working diligently to improve my LD skills. I think working toward any of these mind-expanding skills widens one's consciousness and provides opportunities for growth beyond our wildest "dreams!"

Yes, I've heard that all dreams may actually be AP's. I had my third lucid dream last night, and I found myself standing in my own living room at the moment of lucidity... hhhmmmm...

Oh, and by the way, how do we know that our "experience" in a physical human body isn't just an extended portion of a larger DREAM??? ;)

Thanks again for your responses! love, light, lucidity, Kristina

Josh. Lately, I remembered your advice in an important situation:

Hi Ralf

Congratulations on a classic OBE induction! The VS you experienced sounds fairly strong; I'm sure if you can reach that state again you'll have no trouble "projecting". Just ignore the weird goings-on in your limbs and try to take a relaxed attitude towards the noises (after you've gotten "out" once or twice before they'll seem more exciting than frightening, as you'll know what comes next...). The first time I deliberately induced VS I also lost my nerve and cut it short before projecting; the noises were so violent and deafeningly loud (the most intense VS I've ever experienced, before or since) that I was afraid to think what this might be doing to my brain. So I went online the next day, joined an "astral projection" mailing list, and after describing the event I was told that it was an OBE phenomenon of the most common sort, which many members of the list had experienced hundreds of times without any ill effects. So I tried again, and struggled unsuccessfully with the VS for some time before giving up and simply taking it in as an interesting sensation in itself, while pretending I was lying in a train listening to the rattle of the wheels below me. I decided that this would be a pleasant way to go to sleep, but soon something prompted me to open my eyes. When I did so I found that I was not in bed, but was in fact lying on the floor in the kaboose of a train, which was trundling along near the outskirts of a small town on a warm summer morning. Jumping to my feet I was awestruck by the vividness of my surroundings; it seemed at that time almost impossible to believe that the world I had stepped into was anything other than "real", and when I was walking through the town (complete with dozens of realistic-looking people strolling in every direction, cars and buses driving down the streets, buildings and trees and individual blades of grass by the hundred, all in convincing detail) it was as if I were exploring some alternate universe. I do now accept these experiences as a sort of dream, but I understand something far grander by that term than what is generally acknowledged. And for the life of me I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing in my sleep...

"Pleasant dreams" to all,

Josh

Dear Dr. LaBerge,

The LD vs. OBE/AP discussion has really got me thinking. I wonder, what are your views on the human spirit, reincarnation, karma, life after death, and the continuum of human consciousness. I have the feeling that you believe that human consciousness originates purely in the brain; please correct me if I've misinterpreted. I'm really curious about your thoughts on this. Is there an article you've written that you could direct me to that would clarify things?

I ask you these questions respectfully. I admire your work in lucid dreaming, and the techniques and Nova Dreamer have changed my life dramatically, and I thank you deeply for this.

Sincerely,

Kristina

Kristina, as to whether or not I believe in "reincarnation", "life after death", and other such metaphysical I feel most comfortable with the Buddha's point of view. (The Buddha does not assert that there is life after death; nor that there is not life after death.)

On the other hand, I can correct your misimpression that I believe that "human consciousness originates purely in the brain" by saying actually I believe that much of the specific form that human consciousness takes is determined precisely by the very biological brains we've inherited. This should be obvious to anyone who has taken a drug or seen the effect of development or brain damage on consciousness. But evidence for some or even most of our consciousness being affected by or caused by brain activity doesn't mean that all of our awareness derives from neural processes.

Indeed, there is reason to believe that there is something more to us than what the brain tells us. But the reason isn't the so-called OBE. I suggest you read, or re-read more carefully, the last couple of chapters of LUCID DREAMING and EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING. Or come to one of our Dreaming And Awakening programs where we discuss these ideas at length.

It's good that the OBE causes us to raise questions like these, but let's not accept face validity as deep truth. That would be like thinking that because something seems true, it must be so.

Lux! Stephen

Dear fellow oneironauts!

On LD and OBE

After having read VOLDE, NL32.OBEandLD, and after re -reading chapter #9 "Lucid dreaming" , I think, there are different ways to interprete the OBE experience. Maybe my experience while relaxation has been a kind of "haptic dreamlet". I can't be sure, if my senses have shown the physical clock "tick -tack". Maybe it was a "dream tick-tack" and "dream car - sounds". Maybe there is another body, but we have to learn how to use it, if we want to visit other places in the physical world.

On ESP and LD/OBE

If we include telepathy and remote - viewing as possible sources of information, it seems impossible to distinguish between OBE perception "inside astral body" and ESP "inside physical brain". What remains is our ability to focus awareness. Using the "Global Workspace" model of consciousness it seems to be easy to include ESP as another way of perception. But it seems to be hard for the dreamer to distinguish between external and internal sources of signals. Signal processing is a context, is not concious for the dreaming mind. If a person speaks to me in a dream, how can I know, wether it is actual communication or perception of physical reality? External signals don't "taste" different to me, while dreaming. Only in waking life I may find proof. And I did. In a few of many cases of non - lucid dreams. I suspect, that the LD - context decreases the likelihood of ESP, like the waking context does. Shared dreams can be subject to scientific proof. I'm very eager to develope my LD - ability and take part in experiments concerning shared dreams.

On NDE and LD/OBE

R.A. Moody points out, that NDE are no evidence for life after death. NDE are dreamlike. But they seem to be a very special kind of dream. I don't agree with the authors conclusions in "VOLDE, D.2. Variations in Thinking". Individuals beliefs seem to influence NDE only in a superficial way. There are stable elements of NDE, that seem to be independent of religious and cultural context. I must confess, that I very like to believe in reincarnation. I like to believe in a continuing life of the "soul" through different incarnations. That makes it difficult for me, to be "objective", to really listen to the arguments of neuro - physiology, to see human existence through its glasses. Maybe this is the reason, why I got so angry, while I read this paragraph of "VOLDE". Angry enough to do a state - check. But no scientific evidence has yet convinced me to fall apart from my belief. I still believe, that Monroe could be right. That his semantic framework maybe has not been flawed, but correct. It seems to me, that his AP took place in a stable environment. Maybe he had the ability to access worlds different from "normal" AP / LD. From the scientific point of view this interpretation is speculative. There is no proof.

Keep open - minded!

Yours

Ralf

Hey Ralf,

I AGREE WITH YOU!!! I am an intelligent and objective person, but I share your beliefs in reincarnation, karma, and the human spirit. Sorry scientists, but I think there's more to it that can never be proven given our existing earthly resources! How does science explain things like remote viewing? People having NDE's and hearing conversations in another room? I have a friend who personally won the lottery using AP/remote viewing! These experiences cannot ALL be created by our human brains!

I think we have to take our experiences for what WE feel them to be, and not force them into some category (like dreams) just to fit into a scientific framework. What is so wrong with having your mind open to possiblities that cannot be proven? Are we humans so arrogant as to believe that we have "figured it all out???"

Just a few hundred years ago, weren't scientists SURE THAT THE WORLD WAS FLAT? AND THAT THE SUN REVOLVED AROUND THE EARTH??? What if no one ever questioned THESE ideas???

I guess this whole issue has me kind of angry too. Anyway, in short, I share your views Ralf. I'd love to share more views with you if you're interested, e-mail me at: kscheps@hotmail.com

Take care, and keep that mind open!

Kristina

hi ralf,

i noticed in your last message you mention that you're very keen to develop you LD ability and take part in experiments concerning shared dreams. you may want to have a look at the 'messages' link at one of the following urls:

http://www.egroups.com/group/thedreaminitiative

or

http://www.egroups.com/group/lucid

as they are trying to set up some experiements with shared dreams.

aside from that there's quite a lot of good stuff re. lucid dreams.

rob

Dear Rob!

Thank you for the links

Dear Kristina!

Feels good to share beliefs. But I remember them to be what they are: Beliefs. I agree, that the world is greater, than scientific knowledge may ever be. But I believe, that someday science may find a good explanation concerning remote viewing. In the case of ESP and PK I favour quantum - physics models of how processes can influence each other "independent" of space and time.

Our experience IS created by our brain. My question is, whether I can create consent about my experience or whether it is only subjective. I don't think, I can take every experience for what I feel it to be: In normal dreams I'm convinced, I'm awake in the real world. I feel awake. But I'm wrong.

Keeping my mind open... My second name is "doubt". You may call me Ralf "doubt" Penderak. I doubt, whether science knows all, what exists. And I doubt, whether I interprete my experiences correctly. Science offers methods to create consent about our experiences. It offers models for interpreting our experiences. Science is a way of problem - solving. A problem is: Do we percept physical reality while OBE/AP? If you take a look at experiments concerning OBE / AP as quoted by SLB, you see, that only few "OBE - pretenders" had a correct perception of physical reality. I conclude: Not every OBE takes place in physical reality. Most OBE seem to be "normal" lucid dreams. I conclude: While having an OBE I am to DOUBT about how to interprete my perceptions. I suspect: Maybe my interpretation of perceptions of different worlds (like those, where Monroe has traveled) is going to be not correct. Maybe I find a way to proove. But today I have to face the truth, that lies in my doubts.

This truth has sometimes a bitter taste. This is, what made my angry while reading VOLDE. Does anyone really like loosing his or her delusions? Being open minded, that is expecting the unexpected AND what we already know. Being open minded, that is gaining information from different sources, experience AND science. I think, there is enough space for the unexpected in a model like "Global Workspace". Seems to be an open and dynamic model. I very like to work on models. I have a need to understand my experiences and how the world actually works. I have a fear to loose myself, if I loose a basic consent about my experiences.

This is why I find it very helpful to communicate about our experiences in the LI Forum.

Hoping for consent by means of real internet

Yours

Ralf

Hi Ralf,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I too hope that one day, science will be able to prove what is behind the OBE and other experiences. My long-winded point earlier was just that, in today's world, science does not have all the answers.

I apologize if I have insulted anyone with a scientific background.

Kristina

Kristina, Ralf, et. al.

As one of a "scientific persuasion" I assure you I take no offense; no apologies needed. ;)

A great many scientific thinkers (and I would place some of the greatest scientists of all time in this category) are of a mystical nature. The more they understand of the workings and mechanics of the cosmos, the more profoundly in awe they are of the immensity of it all, of all that remains unknown. As Ralf pointed out earlier, the pioneers at the frontier of quantum physics are describing a reality as much metaphysical as physical!

I remain a bit mystified by the intensity of your response to the "Varieties" piece. How is it one remains "open minded" yet reacts with anger when confronted with a viewpoint at odds with your own beliefs?

I accepted a long time ago that we live in a strange and marvelous universe, and that science is but one avenue, albeit a very useful one, to shed a little light into the darkness of our ignorance. That it is a pale light in a vast void bothers me not at all! While some scientist may disbelieve in darkness because they cannot see it in their light, I embrace the dark. The mystery of life is what makes life worth living, but I do not fear when the unknown becomes "known'. How could I in the face of that infinity? There will always be far more that is unknown, indeed unknowable, than is known!

Perhaps the greatest mystery the conscious mind ever contemplated is consciousness itself. Despite the tremendous advances made in understanding the human brain in the last few decades, consciousness remains an enigma. If we could describe with exacting and precise detail the elaborate daisy chain from photons striking retina to the beautiful sunset that our brain paints, that we are conscious of, would that render the experience of that sunset any less magical? Whether consciousness is an emergent property of our evolved brain or our brain evolved because consciousness exists is immaterial: the brain is the organ of awareness. Kristina could not understand why "so many people are so anxious to convince the world that an OBE is just a dream', as if being "just a dream" somehow rendered the experience something less. Well, I'm not particularly anxious to convince the world of anything, but here goes: "Life" is just a dream! What a gas!!

All that said, one thing we certainly agree on is that the experiences we label as LD or OBE are, subjectively at least, two very different experiences. Most of us have experienced very different states of consciousness while physiologically "awake". The subjective experience one has doing their tax return is qualitatively distinct from the experience of deep meditation. (OK, that's a stretch. But you see where I'm going!) Why shouldn't there be more than one distinct state of awareness while physiologically "asleep"? Or, more accurately as stated in Stephen's "Variations" article, a continuum of awareness. My own suspicion, which is all I can offer since this is not my field, is that the OBE experience occurs at a much higher level of cortical arousal (i.e. closer to the wake/asleep demarcation) than the experience we ascribe as a LD. Certainly most OBEs (and ALL of the experiences I've had that conform to that description) occur near that boundary, either following sleep onset, following a wake event during the night, or at the transition to wakefulness at the end of the sleep period. This is certainly congruent with awareness of outside stimuli during the event, since all of our sensory perception does not simply toggle off like a light switch as we cross some clearly defined boundary separating wakefulness from sleep. And congruent as well to find ourselves in a dream so nearly identical to the environ where we sleep, since our homeostatic brain is trying hard to sustain, in spite of those diminishing external stimuli, an accurate representation of the world "out there" - as faithfully as it rendered those stray photons into that beautiful sunset!

Whatever else we may be, we are also this - a magnificent animal, alive in an awesome and mysterious universe, this "material plane', endowed with this incredible sensory organ that makes not only awareness possible, but awareness of awareness! That the brain is essential to our animal perception tells us little about the ultimate origin of that which we perceive, whether that perception occurs in our dreams asleep or our dreams awake. And therein lies the magic, the wonder of it all!

From the Court of Morpheus, With best regards

"Don

Hi there Don. Thank you for your wonderful words. This is what I needed to hear! I agree with everything you said. Very thoughtfully written.

I apologize if it seems I reacted in anger, or that I am "defending my beliefs." I'm not totally sure what my beliefs are yet, but what I was defending was the right to keep one's mind open to ALL possibilities. Maybe I have totally misinterpreted, but I have gotten the idea that this forum would have us believe that science has all the answers (or most), and that is the final word. I watched Ralf's posts evolve from "excited about having an OBE" to "giving up my delusions," based on information he was given. Why should he give up his "delusions?" What's so wrong with being a little "naive?" Does it mean one is less intelligent? You are right, science has come a long way, and is discovering more every day. But if every one of us agreed, totally, with current scientific understanding, we would stop looking, and I feel that would be a shame. To agree that we are nothing more than an evolved animal, with an advanced brain, negates the idea of the existence of the soul, and the need for religion or spirituality of any kind. It is to this feeling of limitation that I am reacting so strongly.

But I digress. Your words were insightful and I thank you for writing the above post. I will be keeping my mind open!

Thanks again, Kristina

p.s. Had a few more lucid "snippets" the other night with my mask. I used a "flash & beep" custom setting, and saw/heard it as the doorbell being repeatedly rung! I laughed at myself!

Hi Don,

I'd like to comment on your question, "If we could describe with exacting and precise detail the elaborate daisy chain from photons striking retina to the beautiful sunset that our brain paints, that we are conscious of, would that render the experience of that sunset any less magical?"

Probably not, as long as we're not trying to do the analysis while we're experiencing the magic of the sunset. At least that's the way it generally seems for me. Certainly insights, promptings, etc., can come to us while we are in a unitive, "magical" state. Seems that "magic" is created, in large part, by being fully immersed in experience. Thinking, to me, tends to feel like a level removed from full experience or "flow."

The following analogy comes to mind: a basketball player will likely think and think and think about how to play better, and at least equally importantly, practice, practice, practice. But I wonder how much he's thinking as he's making his shots during a record-breaking game. My guess would be very little if at all! He and the experience are probably one. Or the experience of union in making love, or any other "flow" experience I can think of: it tends to be much more like something happening through me, rather than my intentionally doing something. Being vs. doing. We paddle 'til we get out to the center of the river, and finally we are taken downstream by the current. I'm not trying to negate the value of thinking and doing. There is certainly a time and place for everything. Setting in motion a long, complicated thought chain while I'm trying to experience the beauty of a sunset, however, feels like a contradiction to me. There are certainly different ways of knowing, and (in my opinion), the highest are not all necessarily rational or intellectual.

Best Wishes, Nibbana

Ah, Naughty Nabbina! You slipped that while in when I wasn't looking. Is your comment directed to my original question or to your subtle adaptation of same? From the balance of your post I'd say the latter, though there's much there I'd readily subscribe to. I don't commonly blemish the taste of fine wine with overt ruminations on the mechanical, biological, and chemical processes that transformed the grape! But the knowledge of those processes do not render that experience "just a drink" (nor diminish the love of a Creator who would endow Her creations with such alchemy) - and that, Dear Nabbina, was my point.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion from the content and (especially) the context of that rhetorical question that I would somehow advise the wholesale substitution of rational analysis over direct experience - particularly in regards to a beautiful sunset (or making love!!) However, I shall take the blame and assume that, despite my intended care with words, the metaphor was misleading and caused your perceived contradiction. Though I would add that some confusion arises when a reader makes an absolute interpretation of an obviously relative statement, which was the motivation in my prior post.

When Kristina voiced her concern about many people trying to convince the world that an OBE is "just a dream" I had to read back through this thread, including the various links, to see if that was so. The statement "just a dream" is really making two assertions. First, that the event in question is a dream, which we can either accept or reject based on an agreed upon definition of "dream" and the evidence presented that it either does or does not conform to that definition. And second, that the event is not other than dream - is "just" dream - which violates a fundamental maxim of science; viz - "an absence of proof is not proof of absence"! Had the L.I. proposed such an absolute statement I would have my doubts that good science is practiced here; but I do not see that it is an issue. Indeed Stephen and others have been quite diligent to remind us that a scientific observation does not preclude that yet unobserved, and challenged all of us to put it to the test. Do the experiment and base your conclusions on those results. (Remember, your out-of-body mileage may vary ;-)

And for Kristina I would add that my intent here is only to advise that spiritual pursuit is not incompatible with scientific inquiry. That, and the only one we need defend our right to an open mind against is - ourselves! I recall a professor that said "Some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post - for support instead of illumination". We can, I think, extend this a bit beyond just raw statistics without doing it injustice. When presented with a "scientific fact", first filter out any unsupportable adjectives - including, no, especially your own! (Don't turn "we are an animal" into "we are nothing more than an animal" !!!) Weigh what's left against the supporting data presented; if the observations support the hypothesis then ask yourself "how does this illuminate my world view?". If not, simply say "Thank you for your opinion" (even if to your own ego!) and go on about your business. Do this and you shall have no quarrel with science nor the scientific method. You will, however, find yourself forever challenging your beliefs!

Albert Einstein said something to the effect of "Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind" - I see no reason that the members of this forum need be limping about in the dark!

In pursuit of Morpheus (He is soooo elusive!!) With warm regards,

...Don

Moin!

(This is what we sometimes say instead of "hello" near Schleswig - Holsteins coasts)

How are you? I'm fine.

Kristina, there is no need to worry about me loosing delusions. My OBE or however you call it, remains a wonderful experience to me. It's only the question of interpretation of Monroe's OBE - journeys and the NDE topic, that got me angry. I'm not shure about it, but I believe in reincarnation. There are many "hints", but no proofs for life after biological death. I can't say, who is right. People believing in life after death or people disbelieving. I can't say, whose semantic framework is flawed. I can't, in every case, decide, whether my dream charaters are real or not. I think, this has to remain open, until we find proof. But in VOLDE, the authors don't leave it open, but point out: "In such cases, it is the semantic framework, that is flawed, ..." This may be correct for most of AP - experiences or dreams, but not for all. As far, as I remember, this is the only time, I got angry while reading textes of SLB. In general I think, he is very open - minded. His work, the work of all people at LI, is very helpful for me. Today, right now, I don't worry about interpretation. I'm very satisfied by doing the Course In Lucid Dreaming. I'm practising the Reflection - Intention Technique and I continue falling asleep counciously. I learn to relax deeper and deeper and to calmly observe hypnagocic imaginary and even little dream - stories. Feels like I'm soon going to enter dreams conciously. There are a lot of interesting details to discuss. But I haven't got the time to write that much, not even in my own diary. I focus on doing, not on writing or thinking too much, these days.

Good luck to Kristina

Thank you all for a wonderful conversation

Yours

Ralf

P.S.

I wrote this, before I read the latest postings by Nibbana and Don.

I'm very delighted by your elaborate writings. I suspect, that I may have missed some subtleties, due to my poor English. But I can say, that I agree with most of your thoughts.

Once again, I want to point out, that I claim a scientific AND spiritual approach to dreams and other experiences to be very worthful. And so is the work of LI.

I think, that my ego is the greatest obstacle, that keeps me from being open - minded.

Dear fellow dreamers!

I'd like to report a late experience, wich you may find interesting. And maybe someone is able to answer the questions, that arouse of this experience.

I take my seven year old son to bed and sleep beside him from 2230 to 2330. I awake and do my RC, remembering yesterday's false awakening: Awake, but drowsy. I go in my own bed. I can't sleep, because my belly is aching. I decide to lie on my back and do the 61 - point exercise. It's hard to keep the track. It's a fight for awareness, I very like. At point 45 I hear this noise, just like in the onset of last "OBE". This time I'm not afraid. I decide to let it happen and to be aware. The noise stays loud. I feel my physical body lying in bed and something is turning around and around through this body. Feels like another body. I speculate about the anatomical and neurological connection between acoustical and vestibular afferences and their processing. Seems, as if there may be some disturbance in both sytems during sleep onset. I then decide to focus on the noise and on deeper relaxation.

It works: I feel an abrupt shift between two perceptions:

1. My physical body lying on bed, now on the right side.
2. The other body hovering approximate three feet above the surface of the bed, lying on the back. Perception is shifting between 1. and 2. several times. I start counting: "One, I'm dreaming, two..." I can't count further. I'm torn into a fully blown up dream - scenario. No picture, but a film. I'm fully aware, but soon I'm torn out of dream again. Now, perception is shifting between 1., 2. and different short dreams for several times. I'm sorry, but I can't recall the content of the dreams.

Now I decide to do some hand - rubbing to stabilze dream perception. Again, perception is shifting:

1. It feels just like I remember rubbing physical hands. Anatomical limits of skin and range of movement are respected. But I can't believe, that I actually move physical body. I don't want to open my eyes, because I'm sure this would be the end of this interesting state of perception.
2. It doesn't feel like normal hand - rubbing. Anatomical limits are not respected, rubbing is abnormal fast. I percieve a flow of energy. Feels ecstatic.

I do the same with my feet. Feet - rubbing. Feels like 1., but this time I'm sure, I don't move the physical body. In waking I'm not able to lie on my back, put the soles of my feet together with both knees touching the matress. While writing, it dawns on me, that my physical body was lying on the right side, not on the back! There is no visual perception while rubbing. After some time, perception is getting "normal" again. I open my eyes and do a state - check. Now, I'm not dreaming. I feel very good. The pain inside my belly is gone. I'm very glad. I "achieved" my first WILD during sleep onset and experienced some interesting phenomena connected to vibratory state.

Interpretation:

I experienced three different "body - models":

1. A more accurate model similiar to the memory of the physical body lying on bed on the right side or on the back.
2. From the physical point of view: A less accurate model. Maybe a memory of my body while doing the 61 point exercise. I'm lying on my back, hovering above the bed.
3. A more visual model, least accurate from the physical bodys point of view.

I like to try to make up a story from the neurological point of view: During the first hour of sleep, I went down through all sleep stages, maybe I have been on the way up to the first REM - period. I awake with no dream to recall. I get up and go to sleep again. I feel very sleepy, mabe the brain is still in stage four - mood. I'm relaxed, but the pain and my curiosity keep me awake. I do the exercise. While doing it, the brain "saves" the position of the body lying on the back. I estimate the time of exercise has been 45 minutes. During the exercise, I turn on my right side and continue going through the points. I relax deeper and deeper. Brain cuts off connection to poprioceptive afferences. Now it refers only to the model of my body lying on the right side. Brain cuts off connection to vestibular and acoustical afferences. But while doing this, it misinterpretes acoustical afferences. I percept loud noise. At the same time, there is some irregularity in cutting off the vestibular afferences. One side is still processed, the other side is depressed. Brain interprets: The body is turning. This leads to a conflict between two models: 1. The body is lying on the right side. 2. The body is turning. The brain wants to have one non - conflicting model. It searches in memory and finds a model of the body lying on the back. Maybe it remembers the exercise, because during exercise I focus more on how the body feels, than on position in space. So there is the next conflict: How can the body hover in space? The brain is not able to decide about the most accurate model. Perception is shifting. I believe, it is my (who is me in neurological terms?) intention, that let's the brain find a way out of this dilemma. "I'm dreaming,.." Brain switches to a totally different model to escape the dilemma. But as soon, as I'm lucid dreaming, brain is not satisfied with this visual model, maybe because I don't "believe" in it. It switches back, and the di - lemma turns into a tri - lemma for some time. Again, it seems to be "myself", who influences the course: I decide to rub hands. I activate physical models. Maybe, while doing this, formatio reticularis is activated too much. Brain refers to somato - sensoric information again and may be very "pleased" to wake up and put an end to the confusion of models.

This is a story.

My questions are:

Is there any proof, that increased awareness while sleep onset leads to conflicting models of perception? Is there a different pattern of brain stem (formatio reticularis) activation and of changes in processing external information while falling asleep consciously?

Is there any proof for a connection between processing of vestibular /acoustical afferences and vibratory state phenomena?

What is "me" in neurological terms? What is percepting the different models?

Does anybody know details about the connection between vibratory state / OBE and healing energy? Seems to be a powerful way to get into a healing flow.

Just four little questions.

Looking for more light

Yours

Ralf

Hello everyone, I have really struggled to read through all of the above. I have experienced the vibrations and I remember being very happy doing so. I have sought after astral projection for some time now. I read in a book about the vibrations happening just prior to the astral double slipping out so I knew I was close to an OBE. I also enjoyed the loud noise very much. It was like enjoying music to the max. Next thing I remember is sitting up and looking at a human shaped form that was all blue and was sitting up like I was. The sitting up form was all blue. There was no snapping or poping. I then did a strange thing, I laid back down and went to sleep. After all my efforts to do this I just went to sleep when I got there. This saddened me. I have been saying some affirmations lately to help acheive astral projection. I just do not remember to say them as many times during the day as I would like. When I was 20 I left my body while sitting in the back seat of a vw van washing the front drivers seat. I was hearing a loud noise then as well. But when I slipped out it was more like I was shot out of a cannon. I flew right up through the roof of the van through many gray clouds till I stopped in a blue black sky which held no stars. There were gold colored symbols flying through the sky towards me. The symbols were moving as if they were alive. They stopped in front of me and seemed to line up as if I was supposed to pick one. I had no Idea what was going on. I had never heard of astral projection. None of my religious background had prepared me for this kind of a thing. One of the symbols was a gold cross and I remember thinking god would take care of me. The gold cross stayed and the others left the scene. The gold cross either grew in size or got very close. I seemed to be emersed in to it. A conversation was engaged and I found myself falling through the grey clouds and then back in my body and saying oh wow what was that. I am quite sure now it was astral projection. Prior to this I remember seeing the stars in a black cloudless sky but I was laying in my bunk below decks on a naval ship and it was day time. It is strange but for some reason it I did not seem to find this as abnormal at the time. I now do. These things happened in 1970 upon my return from Tonkin Gulf Vietnam. Now I am seeking this with great determination. I am having some success being aware of dreaming during the dream. Just have not progressed much from this till I sat up after the vibrations. I have sent for the super nova dreamer, dream speaker, and the pest. I have great expectations.

Till we meet in the light. Bill

Dear Bill

Thank you for your most interesting posting. The LD - OBE thing isn't easy to swallow. For me it seems, that I have to get more and more open to embrace this wider world, that it presents. And to allow myself being embraced by it. Your not the first to experience it is hard to achieve something again by will (like LD -OBE), that once came upon us - either by chance or divine grace. Many people - like me and you - seem to have to work a lot, but finally succeed. I use the SND, now again for one month. It takes some time and daytime training to become aware of light effects (cues) in dreams. Hope, your expectations are not too hard deluded.

Stay determined

CU in LD

Yours Ralf

Hi, Skypony!

Firstly thanks for your interesting postings. It is good to over and over try to make things most simple if it is gaining awareness day or night. Simple intentions often work better, than complex ones, etc.

Thanks for book - tip. I very rarely use books on dream - interpretation nowadays. I read about different systems of interpretation and non - interpretative approaches on dreams. That keeps mind more open. Just remember, that being lucid in a dream doesn't easily fit in systems, that see dreams as "letters". All these systems tend to work on dreams AFTER they happened, but we are in the situation to consciously act WHILE dreaming.

The funny thing about dreamcharacters is, that they almost always exactly "know" what goes on inside you, but you are the "fool". It is no wonder, they know you, isn't it?

Talking about astral planes is still difficult for me. I can't easily use the term "OBE" or even "astral" projection, because there is so much implied; whole worldviews base on something, that is so evasive like an astral body. In spite of some own experience in "OBE" I didn't come to any conclusions regarding whether astral voyages lead into the physical realm, as often claimed by astral projectors, or if they lead onto some plane that can be the basis of mutual experience. I still doubt the significant difference of dreams and OBE, although they feel different. I must confess, that I sometimes use OBE to give name to experiences that fit into this category with all these feelings of separation, multiple bodies, vibrations, extreme changes of perception of my dreambody etc. There has been a discussion in the thread "The LD - OBE connection". Mostly I prefer to use the term "OBE - like".

What is the difference of LD and OBE in your eyes?

Keep that mind open

Yours Ralf

Hi Ralf

I fear I may have opened up a can of proverbial worms here...

You ask "What is the difference in LD and OBE in my eyes?"

Specifically to that, I have to say I don't know yet, I'm still gathering experiences with which to form my own conclusions. To me, OBE is traveling/experiencing outside of the physical body, accurately perceiving the lower Astral, or Etheric realms, and objectively observing the physical. I would have to say the conclusive test for me would be to involve someone awake in the physical, while I was out in an OBE to see if I could get them to notice me, or somehow affect the physical while in OBE. If I could, then I'm in a true OBE situation. If not, then it's likely just an LD.

I can say I have been practicing Astral Projection (AP) for some 10 years. I have had experiences in which distant friends met me in experiments at one vibration or another, and we hung out a bit, came back, and then discussed what we perceived. I've had nearly a half dozen people accurately describe my Astral Form, which is nothing like my physical form, and the events, and surroundings of where we were were also accurately perceived by each of us. So I have enough confirmations in my mind to believe something objective is occuring there in AP.

I have noted something different in LD's to AP. This I can state. The "vibration" feels different. And most times the dream characters I meet just "feel" like dream characters. Also, movement is different, physics is different... Either LD's occur in the very low Astral Realms, or they are for the most part "all in my mind."

My basic premiss at this time, is that in a Lucid Dream, whereby you are dreaming, and then become aware that you are dreaming, you are in a dream.

I differentiate this with WILDS, which may be Etheric Seperation in some cases (test your state, decide for yourself). Many of the symptoms of WILDS (vibrations, feelings of waves, loud sounds, etc.) are also characteristics reported by folks who have OBE's. As I said, if I do experience such, my state testing would be to observe what is imediately around me, and try to influence the physical, or those awake, in some way in which I could later determine if i was actually out and about like a ghost on the earth, or whether it was all a dream.

My work with LD's is pointed first and foremost to further my experiences in AP. The thing with AP for me has always been a state of duality - being in two places at once. This is being quite aware of my physical body, and also being very aware of where I am in AP. My experiment is to try to go to places, and visit "entities" I know from the state of an LD so that I can experience AP with full awareness, less subjectivity, and no distractions from the physical.

I will point out to date that I have not been able to "project" from an LD. Also, the LD's I have had don't "feel" like AP. So I'm still working on this.

I think a dream is a dream. But I do know in a Lucid Dream, one is completely mind awake/body asleep. From that meditative standpoint, awesome things are possible!

So I guess I would say that I see an LD as simply an LD. A WILD MIGHT be more than LD, might not (dont know yet). But I do know what OBE's, LD's and AP's are, and I think LD's may be an interesting "jumping off" point to any of these.

Otherwise, what the heck! LD's are so cool anyway they are worth all the effort and training that goes into them

Skypony!

Thanks for reply. The whole subject isn't easily covered in a few sentences. You say, that you've had provable mutual experiences in AP. That it is more, than most astral projectors can report. And it is one more reason for me to keep looking for differences in OBE and LD. And for keeping MY mind open. I hope we will find some day means to look objective on what seems now to remain subjective / mutual experience. Experienced subjects like Stuart Harary and Ingo Swann discern OBE and dreams clearly. ( Janet Lee Mitchell: Out of Body Experiences, Chapter 6.)

The thing about characters in LD and OBE is interesting. If I compare the reports of LDers and OBErs it is that the latter tend to experience other subject as individuals with own life and will. I always thought, that this only related to their expectations, their semantic framework. But as I read more and more it seems that even sceptical "projectors" treat the characters as real or they seem to just leave it open (what is even more surprising).

WILDs and false awakenings tend to take place in a physical environment similar to the waking world of the dreamer. It seems adjacent to attribute this to expectation again. But - and I think that is what you wanted to say - especially WILDs and false awakenings may lead to or may be a transitional state, where we can access different stages (physical awake / dreaming / OBE).

Yes, it is interesting, that astral projectors have this difficulty, no let me say this tendency to fall back into the physical body. This is rarely the case for LDers, but I can say, that at least in my case it is, that the environment seems to be not that stable, as in OBE. Everything seems to be much more changeable, sometimes without substance, so that my LDs tend to vanish, if I fail to stabilise them. Astral projectors don't seem to have this difficulty, but for both it is, that they have to prevent premature awaking.

Have you read Castaneda on the subject of "The Dreaming"? He described (or fantasised?) a way to come from LD to "Dreaming", what seems to be a kind of very dense AP into physical reality in our words. I didn't try it so far, would certainly spare a lot of fuel...

It is worthy, of course, to spent much time in exploring these realms

CU there

Yours Ralf

Ralf,

Now this IS getting interesting...

I've made the mistake of assuming that we apply the same lables to the same experiences. Or that our experiences are similar. For instance, for you, you state that LD's usually involve environments which are quite fluid, and maleable. When I get Lucid in a dream, it is so tangible, so solid, and so stable, it is often more "real" than physical life, usually with greatly hightened perceptions of colors (almost as if things are slightly luminous), and gravity is usualy controlable (levitating, doing front loops, etc are easy, and if I fall a long way, it is more like gravity is that of, perhaps, the moon).

As well, when I do AP, I seem to have limitations on how long I can stay out, or how far into the higher vibrations I can go. If I stay too long (I can "feel" when It's time), I get snapped back into the physical body rather violently. To an onlooker it might appear similar to convulsions, though they are not all that unpleasant. This is quite different from the sensations of awaking from an LD.

In other words, we seem to be experiencing very different things when we get lucid in dreams. Interesting, isn't it?

Ralf,

Though I have heard of Castenada many times (that name just keeps popping up), I can't say I have read the works.

Do you think we should open a new discussion, perhaps under Open Conversation regarding just what sort of environments we as Lucid Dreamers, Astral projectionists, and OBE'ers experience?

I get the feeling from talking with you that many are having vastly different experiences when we get Lucid...

What do you think?

Dear Skypony

I think we are having the same category of experience, when we relate to the term "lucid dream". LD simply means: I dream and know, I'm dreaming. At least this is the definition, we use here, in accordance to Stephen LaBerge and many other lucid dreamers. I'm systematically working on LD since February 1999, had my first lucid moment ( I think maybe 0.5 seconds) in April 1999, which felt somewhat like burning and leaving my body while recognising, that I'm dreaming. My first blown up LD "at will" happened in August 1999. I sometimes feel, as if this is long ago, but I just had my third lucid anniversary in April. With a high - score of six LD per month I still feel as a beginner. This year in February I worked on prolonging and stabilising the dream scene, I would say I'm still learning. I have had LDs that felt more than real, very solid, etc. But this was, at least in the last months, due to my training in prolonging techniques. For me it is as if I have to learn to achieve systematically and from the basics, what was given to me once in a moment of bliss (my first LD, when I was ten or so). So you see, that the basis of our experience differs in the sense, that you have had a lot more training and practice, than me. But I think, that my development leads to more and more stable and longer lucid dreams (once I have the time to focus on LD again). With this perspective I don't think, that we label our experience different or give same labels to basically different experiences. IMHO it is the degree of development, that makes the difference. This counts for my LDs, at least. I didn't have that many OBE - like experiences to really say something about how they develop. And, although I think, that relations of LD and OBE are strong, LD is the focus of this forum. But why not post OBE like experiences? One can claim they are just lucid dreams...

I'm not sure, whether we should start a new thread with the subject of different degrees of solidity of dream - environment. Everybody posts lucid dreams and they are different. It would be nice to see a few (or some more ;-) )detailed dream - reports of you in this forum, so we learn to know your style of dreaming and reporting.

Your words on the difference of return from AP or LD are very interesting. It would be fine if you posted an example in the thread "The LD - OBE connection" in the folder "Research, Theory,..."

I'm looking forward to continue our discussion.

If one flies oddly high like a pony in the sky don't by shy: snicker: "strange goodbye!"

Ralf

Ralf...Roger That

I have some difficulty in posting most of my Lucid Dreams, accept for what was happening, and how I got lucid (those details might help others).

I'm conducting some very specific experiments in using Lucid Dreams as a "jumping off" point to other higher seeking. Most of that I just can't share, but will share what I feel appropriate and helpful.

Interesting poem you conclude with.

Skypony

That is ok. I think everybody profits by reading how you do it, no matter for the missing details. Although it would be interesting, if you would drop some lines on how you "go to" the higher realms once lucid or out of body.

Ralf

That's pretty much the entire scope of this experiment, Ralf. To see if I can learn to go to the realms I normally go to in Astral Projection from a state of Lucid Dreaming.

Thus far, I haven't been able to do so. But like a child learning to ride a bike, it's more a matter of trying different subtle techniques.

The precept is that in AP, I have a "duality" of consciousness, which is common in AP. The theory is going to the higher realms from a state of LD would provide less subjective, and clearer perception, as there would be no "interpherence" from the inputs of the physical.

The previous 3 attempts were based upon "awakening into the higher realms after becoming lucid and spinning into the white (White is normal precept of focus 21, the gateway to all dimensions). However I felt the "white" of the LD state was not the same vibration as the focus 21 of the astral realm. And awakening was always into the physical.

The new plan is simply to solidify in true form in the LD state, and request guidance. Guidance is expected to take any form, including a dream character, but hopefully information will come through suggesting a succesful plan of action.

Dear Skypony

Please excuse the delay.

I did read all pages of your site and re - visited TMI site in the face of the new developments. I read the three Monroe books years ago. In the last days I thought about how myself, my worldview changed since I last posted on this subject. I very enjoyed "Whitemane". Now I understand better, what you mean with AP and what is the difference to OBE in your eyes. The concept of subtle bodies is very attractive to me, because in my eyes this assumption is an elegant way to explain / interpret experiences / findings in seemingly different realms, i.e. NDE, reincarnation, Psi, AP, OBE, visions of all kinds and last but not least dreams. Nonetheless I think it is worthwhile to have a differentiated look on the subject. And it seems to me, that you ARE looking differentiated on life. As far as I know, there has been no hard scientific proof for the existence of subtle bodies. Feel free to prove me wrong. I mean it! That does of course not take away anything of the experiences we can make, that have been made, of the changes taking place in us or finally of believing in the continuous living subtle body, i.e. in reincarnation. Life is simply too great to be covered by any scientific theory. I subscribe to the assumption, that we are spread in space and time, at least this is what research in ESP/ PK, reincarnation and related subjects seems to say. Our "body"- at least our consciousness - is under certain circumstances able to transcend the commonly accepted limitations of space and time. I believe, that there is an astral body, but there is also consciousness without any body. Consciousness takes many forms.

That is what I have in short to say to the AP and OBE thing. I'm curiously waiting for your reports. And wonder, how your experiments with LD and AP keep going.

Into the light

Yours Ralf

Ralf,

All I can say about "subtle bodies" is that my astral form has been acurately observed, and described by about a half dozen other astral projectionists/sensitives. Confirmation enough for me.

I'm glad you enjoyed the site, and "Whitemane," which is a channeled book of parable wisdom.

As for everything else, it's just what I've experienced. I hope and pray you find that which YOU seek, for as you seek, so shall you find.

To date I still have no difinitive experiences that can lead me to believe either way what Lucid Dreaming is (ie: all in my mind, or maybe something more, or maybe it starts in my mind but can lead to elsewhere). But I have done enough dream study for myself and others to feel fairly confident that messages either from one's "higher self" of elsewhere can be transmitted through dreams, and thus I will be using a new experiment to simply try to "stay put" when I get lucid, and seek some guidance on this to see what comes through.

Wish me luck

Dear Skypony!

Of course I wish you all the luck, you need.

Consensual experience is more, than most astral projectors can refer to in proving their claims. Consensual experience is what I'm using, too, if I want to have a more or less secure basis in realms, that go beyond scientific proof. I'm looking forward to future experiments in this subject.

You are right to say, that everyone is on his own, genuine track towards the light (hopefully). Nonetheless your example is inspiring me to go on in my way.

CU

Yours Ralf

Friends,

It's been a while since someone posted under the OBE-LD connection topic.

I would like to share with you the experience I had last week while on a business trip to Finland.

I woke up from a normal vivid dream and found myself paralysed in bed lying on my back (I usually have LDs on my back by the way). I was between dream and waking because I could see the digital alarm clock I have at home (and which I never take with me) just next to my bed. Everything else felt exactly the same as if I was in the hotel room. I tried to move but I couldn't. I thought that it would be a good idea to induce an OBE from this point. I started raising energy from my feet up and managed to free my legs and hands. Then I lifted my right arm and saw that I was holding a towel in my hand (there was no towel on the bed). I could move legs and hands and my body but it was impossible to move my head. Whenever I tried it I felt a loud buzzing and intense vibrations. With extreme effort I managed to break free and stand next to the bed where I was lying asleep!!

It was the first time I did this and I was amazed and quite jumpy to see myself sleeping. I turned to leave the room and wonder around the hotel but decided to get the key so I could get back in (how silly!). As I was walking past the bed, I saw myself waking up and moving to sit up in bed. I got a bit scared and looked away and managed to get the key from my jeans pocket. The chair I left the jeans on where in a different position from the one in the waking world. As I went past the bed again, I saw it was empty! I looked towards the bathroom of the room and saw light. I walked to see whether I was in there and saw myself in the toilet taking a wiz. (I had been in the toitel 40 minutes before all this happened). The suddenly I saw myself exiting the bathroom and walking straight towards me. I started walking backwards and tried to get out of the way to avoid the possibility of re-entering my physical body. Or so I thought at that time. The I decided I didn't need a key and flew through the door and started wondering around the hotel. It was full of young women dressed in black. "Am I dead?" I thought to myself and started laughing! After I started talking with a pretty one I snapped back in my bed in the same position everything started.

I would appreciate any comments on: 1. a)Did it start as an LD? b)If it did how could the paralysis be explained?

2. Did it start with an OBE and turned to an LD afterwards with LD-OBE interweaving?

3. Is it normal to see things in different places in an OBE or should everything be in the same place?

Thanks for listening girls and boys.

Na eistai oloi kala. Nikolas

Nikolas!

Firstly thanks for sharing your experience here. And I must say, you displayed a good level of self control.

Like you said, there are details in your experience, which showed, that at least a great part of this must be a dream. That is your alarm clock, the towel, and your "physical" body getting up. That is much.

Because of this I would classify all your experience as a LD, if there were a way to differentiate it from OBE. The onset of what I think is a dream seemed to be close to waking, you seemed to have perceived your sleeping relaxed physical body, you seem to have experienced sleep paralysis.

From my experiences I can say, that from that point the dream developed very similar to my OBE like experiences, only that I until now never saw my physical body.

I guess, that your intention to have an OBE influenced the form of experience. Once more I must state, I think there may be "real" OBEs. But this one seems to be dreamy to me. I don't know about the special things on OBE, but some say, they are much more stable than normal LDs, they report they can read longer texts twice or thrice without them morphing. From my experience I can't say much to support this view, only that I had one or two non LDs, where text stayed stable on the second look. If you have more questions on this, please refer to Stephen et al on LD and OBE.

http://www.lucidity.com/new.html " OBEs, Dreams, and REM Sleep Research Article"

Maybe you and some others would enjoy to discuss this article here, I would certainly drop in, I already began to write something on this two month ago.

Yours Ralf

Ralf!

Thanks for your comments. I too think it was an LD and a very stable one. But I'm still not very sure about the beginning of it. Most OBEs have the physical world appear a bit distorted and things are some times out of place. I have to look into that a bit more. It sure was weird though seeing myself. I had some funny sensations around my stomach which I later remembered that it relates to projections that take place close to the physical body. I don't know if was just me being a bit scared seeing myself. These sensations stopped as soon as I left the room.

I will read the article as soon as I get the chance. Thanks a lot for listening.

Maybe the book I'm reading might interest you. It's called "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce. You can visit http://www.astralpulse.com/ and have a look at his webspace. He's been researching OBEs and other astral related experiences/phenomena for quite some time.

Be well!

Nikolas

I encolse a link to a document by Robert Bruce. OOBE Treatise

http://www.astralpulse.com/guides/oobe/Treatise.PDF

Hi all! I'm new to this forum. I ordered the novadreamer yesterday (gotta wait till Mid March to get it because the mask is on backorder).

I have the book by Robert Bruce. It's huge! Astral Dynamics. I read his oobe treatise but I think the book is a tad more involved (huge understatement)

I came across the following site which might be of interest to the group. It's about how to move from lucid dreaming to OBEs.

http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/astral-projection-and-out-of-body-experiences.htm

I'm going to print it out and get familiar with it then give it a try after I have a bunch of LDs.

Sorry if it's a little pedantic but, how exactly is the term OBE defined in context to this discussion. From what i've read so far everything written in this forum is easily explained by Lucid Dreaming or perhaps more likely just vivid dreaming.

Surely ANY of the experiences defined as OBE, Astral travel etc. could just as well be dreams misinterpreted? Because if we are using 'how real it felt' as a yardstick then we all know that means nothing whatsoever.

I'm sure this has already been covered (havn't had time to read ALL the posts) just wanted to refresh.

It's just good to be clear about what exactly we are discussing, otherwise all sorts of mad confusion breaks out.

I've just read a little of the above link and to be frank find it quite misleading and contradictory.

for example quote:

"I will repeat this process of increasing levels of lucidity and then restabilizing (usually three times is good enough for me) until I get to a point where I am SO lucid that I can just intend or verbally command or even just think "FIND THE PHYSICAL BODY BUT DON'T GET TRAPPED INTO IT. PREPARE FOR AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE!!!" After practicing this for a while, I don't have to say the whole thing anymore, but it helped in the beginning. Now, I can just get to a sufficiently heightened level of lucidity and then just verbally say "IT'S TIME FOR AN O.B.E.!!"

I am not sure just what this guy is refering to as 'lucidity' but i have always considered it to mean 'awareness' (he seems to use the term in various different ways, sometimes awareness, sometimes clarity of vision, stability etc.)

It's just if you are 'increasing lucidity' then surely the idea of finding your physical body in a psychologicaly manufactured reality (the dream) is quite bonkers. Why would the dreamt physical body be more real than any of the rest of the dream? How could you find ANYTHING real? your dreaming, its all happening in your head, a mental model.

This guy seems to think that just because the dream, 'feels real' or the events are 'possible' then this makes it an OBE. for instance:

quote:

It's definitely an OBE not a lucid dream, I'll be hovering in my exact room for awhile then I go to explore my apartment, yet within a few minutes I will see things I know couldn't be happening: people I don't know in my living room, being able to move things, etc.... I take this as a sign that dream imagery is superimposing itself on the astral realm. When this happens I have two options I can reinduce an OBE which will zap me right back into my body which will again be in a full blown vibrational state and I can go through the process again OR I can just go with the flow of the semi-OBE/LD.

How is this so? how can it be definitely an OBE? what is the defining factor? Dream imagery imposed over the Astral realm??? Perhaps it is simply just ALL dream imagery. That would certainly seem a little more likely woudn't it?

Sorry to go on but i just find all this stuff a little annoying, lucid dreaming is SUCH a wonderful amazing state why do we need to impose unprovable and quite frankely seemingly nonsense states on top of this? Can't we just enjoy this beautiful miracle of human existance without turning it into wafty unscientific dribble?

Don't get me wrong, i would love to discover that these things existed, would LOVE to. But as far as i can see wishful thinking and misinterpretation is not a very sensible path to take.

thats enough of me ranting on for one day.

Sweet dreams. Daniel.

Adrienne:

Welcome to the forum! As you can see by Daniel's response, you certainly picked an interesting topic for your first post!

Daniel makes several good points, though, primarily noting that Marc VanDeKeere (aka Bird) might be confusing not only his terms but his understanding of his dream experience. There are plenty of people out there who can sound downright rational when discussing O.B.E's (Robert Bruce is one of them ' hey, wasn't he also Mel Gibson's adversary in Braveheart?), and those people tend to separate lucid dreaming from O.B.E.'s. To have them mixing together per Bird's notes leaves an argument riddled with cracks that are easily receptive to skeptics" wedges.

Though I'm sure his intentions are pure, I have a sense that Bird may have read, and taken for truth, a bit too much. Open-mindedness is critical when exploring lucid dreams, higher consciousness, or astral projection, but it works both ways: you must also be open-minded to the possibility that it all really is "just a dream.'

Daniel is also correct in stating that the experience of lucid dreaming can lead a dreamer down blind paths of unwarranted mysticism. Often these paths lead to nowhere, except disappointment, and circle right around the awesome experiences that lucid dreaming can provide all by itself.

I hope we hear much more from you, on this and any other subject related to lucid dreaming.

Best of dreams,

Peter

Hello All,

I still make a distinction between OBEs and LDs even though I have convinced myself that the two are inherently related. I have had LDs that have included false awakenings as well as LD's (WILDs)that started with me getting up and walking away from my own bed. Note that I do call these LDs and am sure that they were. However I had one experience in my life that I hold totally distinct from an LD. The characteristic that distinguishes this "event" was the ability to watch a friend of mine walk into the house and over to the place where I was "sleeping" and place her hand on my head. This was in fact actually taking place as I saw it. To me this highlights a very large difference between an OBE and a LD. In LDs you see the dreamworld but in an OBE you can see the actual physical world. Since then I have had other experiences that I use to call OBEs but now (knowing more about LDs) I classify them as LDs. This one event however, just doesn't quite fit into the LD model as I know it.

Just some food for thought.

Thomas

Rants aside, the points are valid to a degree. In an OBE of the physical realm one should not find people that do not belong in their apartment there. In fact, OBEs, to the best of what I have read, don't generally have people in them. So if the you see people you don't know in your apartment, that may be a cue. And to not be able to 'get that' implies that one has slipped from lucidity.

I plan on using LD to go back to the Riverwalk (Oh I loved it there... went there for vacation last year) and other places as well as having fun dream experiences. But the OBEs do interest me a great deal as well, so I am hoping to experience them as well. All will come in its own time.

I do however find Robert Bruce to be very insightful about OBEs. I do believe he is honest and forthright with the information he shares. His explanation of things is quite interesting and makes sense to me.

Has anyone here gone from LD to OBE?