i had the most interesting dream last night. i had a dream about being lucid yet i was not lucid at all! i titled the dream "snake in the basket"....

i'm in a darkened shed or hut. there is a hand woven basket before me. the basket is very wide and almost comes up to my waist. there is a small asian boy in the basket. the child calls out to me "help me! there is a snake in this basket and i'm afraid that the snake could bite me!". i look down into the basket and i'm unable to see the child or the snake. all i can see is darkness in the basket. i assess the situation for a few moments. i then think to myself, "this is just a dream. i can pull the snake out of the basket and i will not be harmed.". i am not lucid at this time. i then reach into the basket without hesitation, grab the snake and throw it aside.

i have had many lucid dreams in the past and many varying degrees of lucidity. however, i definately was not lucid at any time during this dream. i've even had dreams about writing down non-existent lucid dreams but nothing quite this strange.

-ben

I had a dream on May 30, '99 in which a female friend (no one I know in real life) drives me to a parking lot. I get out and look for something in her trunk, and when I get back there is a threatening male character in the passenger side. Now, one strange thing about this dream is the way it was "framed". It seemed at some points I was imaginging aspects of the dream while in another setting - in a room with the "dream girl" and the branch head of one of the libraries where I work - and either alternating between that and experiencing my own pov, or maybe simultaneously experiencing the two. Anyway, I kick the guy in the head, tell him, "Get out of the car!" I want to tell my friend, who's driving, to get out and run: as soon as I think this I see her running in the distance. I see the guy, enraged, starting to reach for a knife in a pouch on his leg. I notice he is dressed all in black. (I think this is the part where the 'framing' occurs - where I think I'm in a room talking with the branch head and that girl, and imagining the scene.) When I see him go for the knife, I run. I see him start to throw the knife, which whizzes past my ear. Nearby I notice a very tall light pole and either jump to the top or think of doing so. Then I go back to where he is and slice off his finger with a laser-blast from my eyes, a power I suddenly imagine having. He looks startled, maybe scared, and I say, "This is MY dream, asshole!" Somehow I destroy him utterly. Now I'm in the room with the branch head and the girl, visualizing this. I think, "If I was dreaming that, would that be an appropriate response to a threat?" I imagine the dream character crumbling and shrinking into nothing as I destroy it, saying in a pitiful voice, like a small child's voice, "Why are you doing this to me?" I feel a moment of intense remorse and sob once. No, I decide, that wasn't the best response. I see the branch head looking at me and say, "Sorry, I was having a dream moment."

Dear Adastra,

Thanks for sharing your dream and thoughtful comments (Under the heading Aspects of the Dream State: Degrees of Lucidity - Lucid or Not?). What really struck me was your in-dream reflection on the beginning segment of the same dream.

And now I am curious. When you "imagine(d) the dream character crumbling (etc.)", was this scene as visually vivid as if you were actually re-dreaming it? And if so, do you think that this left a stronger impression in your memory than if you'd been awake for the dream analysis? And finally, do you think that such in-dream reflection better serves the dreamer for possible, similar waking life episodes?

Lucid or non, this sees a very worthwhile dream!

• Keelin

Hi Keelin

I don't think that I was re-imagining it as vividly; I think what happened at that point was that as soon as the destruction of the dream character was complete, I reframed that scene as being something I had just imagined while I was in the room with the two women.

In this case at least, I think that the analysis within the dream left much more of an impression on me than if I had simply had the same reflection while awake. For one thing, I doubt I would have had such a strong emotional reaction. Secondly, the fact that the reflection occured within the dream resulted in me thinking about it a lot more than I would have without that detail. So for those reasons, I think it is valuable for me to have in-dream reflections on the meaning and implication of my dreams. Also, I think that having that more often in dreams would go with having a similar experience while awake - to step back and reflect on your motivations, acts, and their implications.

A minor note: since I wrote the original post I remembered that years ago I had a dream in which I'm standing in the corner of my room, looking at some objects in my open hand and thinking (non-lucidly) "What do these symbolize?" I remember being fascinated by that after waking and wondering then as well, "How could I think that and not realize I'm dreaming?"

Stephen B, thanks for asking a fascinating question! I have been thinking about this issue and first of all, I would say that most of my dreams seem to be indistinguishable from dreams I had before I started experiencing lucidity. Perhaps this will change when I start having lucid dreams a lot more frequently (to phrase it optimistically) or have had a lot more at a higher level of lucidity.

Right now it seems to me that, as you say, certain dream skills can become automatic and then may be incorporated into non-lucid dreams. It's like when you start driving somewhere that starts off as a familiar route (to work, say) and end up automatically driving to work instead of where you had planned to go. When you get there you are surprised because that's not where you were headed, and you may not even recall the drive very well, it was so automatic. Well, that's an example of being very non-lucid in waking life!

Perhaps what can happen is that we can learn to associate certain types of behaviors or even automatic thoughts with the dream environment. For example, you could learn that in the shifting, fantastic world of the dream, you can fly away from an enemy, or blast him with laser-pulses from your eyes. Then in a dream you might automatically do such things, without ever rising to fully conscious awareness.

For me, this highlights how difficult it is to be really conscious - it's so easy for automatic thinking and acting to take over. Lucidity, whether asleep or awake, is definately worth working towards; truly lucidity is its own reward.

I remembered that Alan Worsley had something to say on this topic, and found the article in which he discussed it. Here's the relevent excerpt:

Implications of Transferring Lucidity Techniques To Nonlucid Dreams

I have noticed a tendency for techniques first developed in my lucid dreams to become incorporated into my repertoire of dream experiences generally. For instance I first used the arm-lengthening technique in a lucid dream. Later, in what appeared to be a nonlucid dream, I used the arm-lengthening technique as if I knew it would work, even though the presumption in nonlucid dreams is that one is in the real world where miracles are impossible. Does this mean that though I was not "aware" that I was dreaming, I somehow nevertheless knew that contrary to waking experience I would be able to lengthen my arm?

It appears that my nonlucid dreaming self has the ability to exploit techniques that my lucid dreaming self has developed. If "I" have a wonderful time in nonlucid dreams by using techniques developed in lucid dreams, but the lucid "I," the lucid person who would clearly recognize the experience as a dream, am not there, from the point of view of the waking self whose wonderful time was it?

I have come to realize through consideration of my own dream observations that, like other skills'such as driving a car or playing the piano'which are practised diligently with great effort and concentration, "dreaming" is a learnable skill.

Having learned by many hours of practice to operate reasonably well in a lucid dream I have found that techniques which once required deliberation have become second nature. This includes to some extent the need to remind myself that I am dreaming. Habitual familiarity with the implications of the fact that I am dreaming now enables me to act quickly and incisively whereas before I would dither and get involved in useless side issues. For instance I remember once many years ago trying to go to a different scene in a lucid dream by hitching a lift. Now I can change the scene by simply closing my eyes and imagining the next scene.

In a sense the lucidity, once it has started, has become, paradoxically, more automatic. In lucid dreams I now engage in "dangerous" activities such as flying, hitting walls and passing through them without stopping, knowing I am perfectly safe. I know very well what I am doing without having to think about it.

If one learns to dream so well, so fluently, that one becomes as a fish in water, in control but not having to think about it, is that still lucid dreaming?

In fact, I have begun to think that many people who would not call themselves lucid dreamers have in fact learned to "dream well." They may fly or perform other miraculous feats in their dreams, somehow recognizing that it is safe to do so, though they may never have articulated this recognition. They may in effect be leading secret lives, of which their waking selves are hardly aware if, like most people, they forget their dreams.

Becky and I were being investigated by the police. Apparently some woman reported that we were "dealers in pornography." We were both mortified. Then we learned that evidence had been discovered in our home. Totally freaked out, Becky ran to the edge of a balcony (we were evidently in a high building) and flung herself over the railing. I ran to the edge and could see her falling her to her death. She was facing up as she fell, and seeing me, she yelled, "I love you!" In utter panic, I yelled back to her, "You are dreaming!!" The phrase came instantly from nowhere. At the moment she heard me, her body wrenched into a sudden bird-like swoop - and just missing the ground she soared up and landed on a lower balcony - safe and sound. Even this did not make me lucid! - at least not at any level I recognized. This fascinating dream continued without lucidity for a short time, and I am very fortunate that I recalled it. (Dream Journal, 7/31/94) /Stephen Berlin

"To be lucid, or not to be lucid, or to be betwixt and between"- that is the question of Shakespeare in dream.

From the previous posts in this thread (and elsewhere in other topics) we have targeted a common experience noticed by versed and veteran lucid dreamers. There are indeed degrees of lucidity. Actually, lucidity is always a matter of degree. Even in what we call our "full-blown lucid dreams," - those in which we seem to have total conscious awareness - close analysis will usually turn up some blatant evidence to the contrary. For instance, in one dream of high lucidity, I was thrilled to teach my daughter that she could fly and walk through windows and walls. "Isn't this cool, Hilary! Now you know what I've been telling you about for so long!" Of course the next day when I rushed to tell Hilary about our dream, she looked at me with eyes filled with pity and revealed that she didn't recall it. This wasn't the first time that I was a victim of "Faulty Logic When Lucid" which I suppose is a foreboding forewarning of an eventual new thread.

At the other end of the spectrum are those dreams in which we (supposedly) are "not lucid," and yet we act, speak or think in some manner which, after waking up, clearly seems to indicate that we were. The dreams related earlier in this thread are good examples. At no time in these dreams did any of us get that sudden and thrilling realization, "AHA! This is a dream!" Yet, evidence indicates that we did indeed realize that we were dreaming, at least on some level.

I have been aware of and watching this phenomenon in my dreams for quite some time and am now prepared to make an observation for your serious consideration. I believe that true oneironauts, by virtue of their devotion to their dreams, ultimately change their fundamental nature. Dreaming becomes quite different than what it was in nights of old, and this difference I propose is essentially some degree of lucidity at all times. Our dedication to lucid dreaming eventually earns us a magnificent reward. In all dreams in which we fail to make the eureka leap to "I'm dreaming!" - I contend that diligent scrutiny will usually root out convincing evidence that we must have been at least subconsciously lucid.

It really is not difficult to make a case for this. As children, we consciously struggle to keep our balance when learning to ride a bicycle. It isn't long before we are riding it unconsciously. We coordinate body and bicycle in union of motion, and although we are obviously using the skills we learned, we no longer need to raise their implementation into consciousness. The same is true with any skill - physical or mental. Eventually, depending on the degree of our focused attention and practice, much of the process will become "automatic." Lucid dreaming is a learnable skill, and in this respect it is no different than any other. There comes a point in our progress when we begin to discover (as in the dreams related in this thread) that we have "behaved lucidly" automatically.

So are we "really lucid" in these dreams when our only apparent failure is to consciously acknowledge it? /Stephen Berlin

Last night I stared at the so called 'magic pictures', you know, where you have to un-focus the eyes and amid some weird patterns you suddenly see some (as if) embossed 3D images. The sensation reminded me very much of a transition from dull to lucid dreaming. Only the lucid state lasts much much longer. As long as you need. Only a couple of times did I reach the same intense lucidity in my dreams. I wonder if this could be used as a criterion.

Bingo! I think. I am very grateful for this discussion, for although I'm only new to this, I have already had "lucid" dreams which I later asked myself if I was dreaming I was lucid or was I really lucid. Before starting the Lucid Dreaming Course, I had a few lucid dreams in which I had the subject experience of "enlightenment",you know, of "Ah ha! This is a dream. These characters are all creations of my mind, this situation is not real and therefore nothing can touch me." The subjective experience of illumination, that "the scales have fallen from my eyes; the veil has been lifted" was very vivid and "lucid" would be the word I would use even if I hadn't heard it before. But last night I dreamed I was in a crowded bank and handed the teller a fist full of bills. After taking some time, she handed me about 36 cents in return. I knew that it was her word against mine that I'd given her a large amount of money, especially when the people around me were saying how lucky I was to even get served. Well, I was an a impass, and logically concluded, "I'm dreaming". I then said to the teller, "I know this is a dream and you are not real, but I still want dream justice." I noted at the time that I didn't have that illuminated Ah Ha! sensation and subsequent feeling of liberation, but still knew it was a dream. Or was I dreaming that I was lucid? Can anyone answer this question?

Joan

Joan, From one lucidite to another you were lucid, to an extent. Your "Ah Ha" is just the tip of the iceberg. You will know what that means in time, weedhopper.

Joan,

I know from experience the kind of dream you are talking about. I have had several "paradox dreams" in which I was and was not lucid at the same time. In these dreams I know that I am dreaming but only at a very superficial level. It's kind of like programming a computer to print out a sentence like "I have free will". The words are there - they are visible and have meaning, yet there is no underlying truth.

Chad

Thank you Chad. That sounds like a good explanation. I've since received more than 36 cents worth of lucid dreaming for all the effort I've put in. There is dream justice, after all.

Joan

Lucid minus "Ah, ha!" Has anyone developed a technique for increasing lucidity once the dream has been realised as a dream? Last night my deceased cat visited me -- a sure sign I am dreaming, and one I rarely miss. But this time, although I knew intellectually I was dreaming, I could not attain that feeling of lucidity. I even talked to my partner in the dream about it (I knew he was only a dream character and not real). If spinning and other techniques can prolong the lucid dream, can anything make one feel more lucid?

Joan

Joan, You might try grounding yourself more fully in the dream. Slow down, breathe deeply, relax, feel what's going on inside your dream body or look around and take note of more of the details of what's in your environment. N

Nothing interesting to report, but I'd just like to thank Leslie for her advice. I'll use it when I get the chance.

Joan

You're welcome. Good luck! Have fun. . . ;) N

Feel more lucid? seems almost like a contradiction in terms.

Of course there are degrees of awareness but surely lucidity always contains the "aha principle". I have noticed over the years that often we can dream that we are having a lucid dream - that is rather than really gaining awareness in a dream - often, experienced lucid dreamers become so used to having lucid dreams that they dream that they are having a lucid dream. - what a bizzare paradox this is - Both my students and I have had this experience - and as Leslie so rightly said, cultivating the habit of grounding yourself and truely reality checking - even if we see something we know we only see in dreams, we must not fall into the habit of "oh this must be a lucid dream" dreams - there is a difference (as i am sure you know). Dreams are based on habit - it is not suprising then that we may have dreams about our now habitual experience of lucid dreaming, we must not however start to believe that these psuedo-lucid-dreams are real lucid dreams.

This of course is similar to the "fake" lucid dreams many "novice" dreamers believe they have experienced - we have all heard someone say - "oh, lucid dreaming - knowing that your dreaming, i do that all the time" - but this of course is one of the first hurdles in lucid dreaming. Many dreams contain a speck of awareness, sometimes even to the extent that "you know your dreaming" - the factor that defines lucid dreaming is however that you not only know your dreaming - you experience the knowledge that you know your dreaming - rather like becoming aware of your breathing - you always "know" that your breathing but this does not mean that you experience the sensation of breathing at all times.

So i dont think you can really increase the feeling of lucidity - its rather like asking for somthing green to be greener - it either is or it isn't - shades perhaps but always green.

There are of course many ways to develop the intensity of the awareness, just as in real life. But it is merely buiding upon the "aha", it is the foundation - the experience is defined by it.

I think i've rambled on a bit....

I hope this has been usefull. Sweet and fully lucid dreams Daniel.

Hi Daniel,

Your statement that feeling more lucid almost seems like a contradiction in terms intrigued me. Surely there is great emphasis in the lucid dreaming community about attaining an explicit, rational comprehension that one is dreaming while one is dreaming. (And I agree that that is typically the main criterion used in defining lucid dreaming.) It also seems that the most common reason for pursuing lucidity in dreams is because once a person knows they are dreaming they can choose to change their reality--create a new, more appealing one. The question this brings up in my mind is, if we were "maximally lucid" would we have such strong needs to analyze, change, and make abstractions about our experiences? Are we most "in-tune" when we are thinking (a level removed from our experience sometimes?) or when we are being (at one with our experience, whatever it is--not struggling, resisting, clinging, desiring to change it, etc.)? In my experience, thinking often seems to be an indication that I'm "off" the mark and struggling to find clues as to how to get back "on". Perhaps there is being lucid (clear, in-tune, open-hearted) and there is thinking about being lucid? Not necessarily the same thing? Who is more in touch with the game of life: the player out there making the shots, or the person sitting on the bench analyzing it? Obviously I am in analysis mode even as I write this, but have had about enough for now. Basically, what I want to say is that I believe defining experience can either help OR hinder us. By the going definition, might not lucidity often be little more than thinly veiled dissatisfaction or attempts at control and escape? As far as definitions help us become more open, compassionate, and effective--I am in favor of them. To the degree abstraction takes us away from what wants to happen in our hearts and our worlds, I'm not so sure it's a constructive thing.

Love & Light, Nibbana

Just as we are more aware some days than others, why can't we be more aware in some lucid dreams than others? Do categories have to be discrete?

Joan

Yes you can be more(or less) aware from day to day - but the you are still "aware", I do believe that you can enhance your lucid experiences and improve upon your awareness- but the common base factor is the realisation that you are dreaming, the "Aha" the lighting up (lucidity) of your dreams. But i do believe that experienced lucid dreamers can and do have (on occasions) - false lucid dreams - dreams that they are lucid dreaming without the real awareness - going through the motions of somethig that has become a common factor in their life. SImply a normal dream about lucid dreaming.

Of course the whole debate on awareness and what is more aware will take us down the same endless paths of the philosophers - we should learn to just enjoy all experience,

Perhaps lucid dreaming, or dreams in general (and life experience)should not be judged on awareness or lack of it, but on what impact these dreams have on ourselves and the world around us. Perhaps true awareness - real lucidity, is seeing that it is all part of one whole, in both dreams and life - and using all our experiences (internal and external if such things exist) to better the world.

Judge the fruit and not the seeds.

But lets not get caught up in endless questions that lead only to more questions.

LETS JUST ENJOY IT!!! : )

Here is a quote from page 6 of Stephen LaBerge's Lucid Dreaming that clarifies what explicit lucid dreaming is. A lucid dream, in the general sense, has only to do with the fact that one is explicitly aware that he is dreaming while he is dreaming. Other thought processes or forms of awareness may or may not share this same level of clarity.:

In most of our dreams, our inner eye of reflection is shut and we sleep within our sleep. We are usually unconscious that what we are doing is dreaming. There are profound possibilities inherent in the dream state, but it is difficult to take advantage of them if we fail to recognize that until after we are awake. Fortunately, while this condition of ignorance is usually the rule, it is not the only rule. The exception takes place when we "awaken" within our dreams--and learn to recognize that we are dreaming while the dream is still happening. During such lucid dreams we become and remain fully conscious of the fact that we are dreaming--and therefore that we are asleep. Thus we are, in a sense, simultaneously both "awake" and "asleep."

Asleep but conscious? Conscious yet dreaming? Phrases such as these may seem at first glance to embody the very essence of self-contradiction. However, this paradox is only an apparent one. It is resolved by realizing that "asleep" and "conscious" refer, here, to two entirely different domains. I say that lucid dreamers are asleep in regard to the physical world because they are not in conscious contact with it; likewise, they are awake to the inner worlds of their dreams because they are in conscious contact with them. It is in this precise sense that I speak of being "awake in your dreams."

While I am clarifying terms, I have been speaking of the lucid dreamer as "conscious." What exactly does this mean? In general terms, you are acting consciously if you know what you are doing while you are doing it, and are able to spell it out explicitly. So if, you can say to yourself while dreaming that "what I am doing just now is dreaming," you are, in fact conscious [that you are dreaming].

Thank you Nibbana and Nathan. While away recently, I had the opportunity to put Nibbana's advice into practice. During a rather dull lucid dream, I decided to abandon my dream plan and step back and observe my surroundings. What a marvellous place I was in! No longer a dull lucid dream, for sure, for it glistened like a place in a fairy tale. Unfortunately I ran out of dream gas before I could implement my dream plan, but now at least I know how to sharpen up lucid awareness.

Thanks to all, Joan

You're welcome Joan!

Wishing you more and more glistening dreams, Nibbana

This is quite interesting I think!!

". . . . . . .The first woman agreed to go back to my hotel room to help me pack . . . .Then I remembered that I had left my dream journal lying about in the room. I must get this in case someone reads it. We returned to the room and I collected the journal. Walking away the woman asked me what it was. I said it was a dream diary and she seemed interested. I said recording my dreams was a hobby. Then I tried to explain to her about lucid dreaming, that you are dreaming and conscious of it, and that during a lucid dream everything seems as real as when awake.We had arrived in a large hall with many people milling around. We stood and looked at the people. I reflected on how clear and solid everything was just like in a lucid dream. I said to the woman that normally we do not experience our past waking experiences more clearly than we do a dream. The woman looked blank and walked off. ((Maybe she was a LD character trapped in my NLD and I guess I bored her!)). . . Then I discovered that I had lost my journal again. . . ."

The dream is significant to me because on awakening I recalled, as with a lucid dream, the conclusion drawn that the scene in the hall was in fact real and solid; I remembered I saw it as in a lucid dream.

Owen,

Interesting indeed. It seems to me from your and the preceding posts that the discussion is about how memory is utilised in dreams.

As we increase the LD data stored in our memory (by thinking about it, doing it, and posting on this forum) the chances that we will non-LD about LD increases - just as we would be more likely to dream of elephants if we studied them.

A worrying hypothesis is that as the likelihood of non-LDing about LD increases, this would develop into an additional obstacle to achieving true LDs.

If this is so, it would become increasingly possible, for example, to encounter and respond to dream signs, go flying, spinning, relate to encountered dream characters, etc. - all without becoming fully lucid.

I posted what I called a semi-LD earlier, which was about me 'waking up' in the ocean and wondering how long it would take me to swim to a distant beach so that I could get on with the LD. If I had been fully lucid I would have flown there, or done something else entirely.

It seems that there is a scale of lucidity, with non-LD at one end and absolute LD at the other.

I understand from articles posted on this site that Stephen LaBerge can "LD at will". If this is so (I wonder enviously) why would he bother to have any non-L dreams? And does he experience this 'scale of lucidity' himself?

Maybe Stephen or other more experienced practitioners can comment on this?

Dear Alan,

It has been said that it is possible to become lucid only when the brain is sufficiently "activated". I understand napping and wakefulness increase the likelihood of this active state being produced. I don't nap now myself, but I wake myself up completely, then go back to sleep. If I'm tired I often get what seems almost like a headache. Almost all my LDs have follow this wakefulness.

My view now is that this activated state is more prevalent than I thought it was in my early days of lucid dream training. Thus if I have the correct trigger, eg recognising a dreamsign, I can become lucid in this state. Unfortunately I am not yet sufficiently skilled to do this frequently. I believe that people like Stephen do have this skill and thus have the possibility to become lucid every night during the "activated" phases.

I have studied my dreams closely now for 10 months, and certainly they, and my awareness of them, have changed dramatically. I believe that I can identify many dreams where I could have become lucid given the trigger. In these dreams I am usually puzzling over something, and I have a strong feeling of a dramatic imminent event, like before a thunderstorm. I just don't get it....what the puzzle is!

The definition of lucidity is uncompromising: you must be aware that you are dreaming. I think that in the dream I reported above what I recalled is the memory that I had checked the scene to see if was like a lucid dream, however I was not lucid.

When the brain is not in the activated state I guess it is possible to have flying, hand rubbing, jumping, reading writing etc non-lucidly. If I can meet my dead father in an NLD without it striking me as an anomaly why should flying feel strange. But in this non activated state it is not possible even for Stephen to become lucid.

I am not so worried about the danger you point up because if the brain is activated then it should be possible to detect the anomalies and become lucid. I think a proviso is that state testing etc while awake is done perfectly sincerely, as Keelin stresses.

Just my thoughts.

Best wishes,

Owen

Alan,

Going a bit further...

I think it must also be possible to say in the non-activated phase "Hey this is a lucid dream, look I'm flying", but not be lucid.

However say this in the activated phase and you'll probably be lucid!

Owen

Owen,

Going a bit further still, there seems to be a parallel between the degree of lucidity achievable in dreams and the degree of awareness possible in waking life.

Having experienced degrees of heightened consciousness (or whatever you want to call it) through Gurdjieff work, I know that the two perceptions are similar in feeling. Also the Sufis refer to it in terms of 'asleep' and 'awake', and Christian tradition mentions 'seeing through a glass darkly'. Others call it by other names, but it seems obvious that all are addressing the same phenomenon.

Maybe the mental mechanism which allows us to LD also allows us to experience 'enlightened' perception in waking life. If so, it's fascinating to speculate what would happen to humanity if this mechanism were identified, and the means to 'trigger' it by a device found.

After all, consciously produced LD was presumably the province of mystical religious practice such as fasting and praying for thousands of years, but now we have the Novadreamer. Is it too heretical to predict that some other device will enable people to access the spectrum of enlightenment? I say 'spectrum' because it seems to me that, like LD, waking consciousness is positioned on a scale of awareness.

Maybe this is why there are so many different interpretations of what enlightenment is, and methods of how to achieve it.

I better stop there before somebody burns me at the stake s.

Alan T.

Alan,

I see one analogy with waking life.

With prospective memory tests or in identifying dream signs, the activated state of the brain occurs when we hit the targets.

I experience often a kind of mental exhaustion where I miss tests and then I let it all go, the targets pass over me, until later or next day I am revived. Perhaps this correspnds to the non-activated state.

Probably this is not what you mean, perhaps you are focusing on a more mystical kind of awareness.

I must some however that prospective memory tests and trying to identify dreamsigns have improved my general awareness of my environment. I notice more things now, not so much head in the clouds.

Owen

Hi, Owen

" I experience often a kind of mental exhaustion where I miss tests and then I let it all go, ..."

There is one thing, that dawned on me during dream camp: I'm performing the RCs often in a negative mood. And I'm frustrated, when I miss dreamsigns. And stay frustrated, it may even get worse. It seems very important, to be in or get into a positive mood and have a vivid imagination of a dreamscene, while performing Reflection / Intention - exercise. And it seems important to get into a positive mood, when I miss a dreamsign. And then say to myself: "Next time..." and imagine myself in a vivid dreamscene, becoming lucid in the presence of this dreamsign. During camp I developed state checking as a kind of "micro - meditation", that increases awareness and positive feelings. Maybe this may prevent your exhaustion.

Hope, it helps

Yours Ralf

Lately I've had a couple of non-lucid dreams in the course of which I close my eyes with the intention of observing hypnagogic imagery. I then see vivid hypnagogic imagery just as if I were observing it while falling asleep. It appears to be a case of lucid hypnagogia within a non-lucid frame dream. Has anyone else experienced this? I am fascinated by the hypnagogic state but for various reasons often have difficulty maintaining awareness into that state. Dreams like the above are fun for me because I get to experience particularly vivid hypnagogia within an otherwise ordinary dream.

Joan,

Back in March you said Quote:

Lucid minus "Ah, ha!" Has anyone developed a technique for increasing lucidity once the dream has been realised as a dream? Last night my deceased cat visited me -- a sure sign I am dreaming, and one I rarely miss. But this time, although I knew intellectually I was dreaming, I could not attain that feeling of lucidity. I even talked to my partner in the dream about it (I knew he was only a dream character and not real). If spinning and other techniques can prolong the lucid dream, can anything make one feel more lucid?

My friend Kalindi on several occasions told me about frequent experiences she had in which she would have a sort of dim realization that she was dreaming, but would not feel fully aware; at such times if she was able to create a sort of "energy burst" she would become much more highly aware in the dream. Sometimes she felt too tired and would not even try - she would think something like "I could push my energy levels and become fully lucid, but can't be bothered right now." This also reminds me of Patricia Garfield's excellant and inspiring book PATHWAY TO ECSTACY: The Way of the Dream Mandala, in which she discussed her discovery that, at least in her own case, lucidity was associated with a feeling of energy flowing; and anything that increased her feeling of energy flow in dreams or in physically-awake life (e.g. taoist meditation) lead to more frequent and intense lucidity for her.

I've had two long dreams over the past week where I tell people I'm dreaming, that "this is a dream" but don't do or remember to do my intended dream activities. There also isn't a clear first single moment where I recognize I am dreaming as there has been in the past. Is this a mildly lucid dream or just a dream of being lucid??? I've letup on my efforts at RC & propective memory tasks during the day so I'm less focused. Any thoughts?

Adastra and Ted

I think your dreams are good examples, that waking life habits (contexts) are carried over into dream - state. The question is easy to answer, from one point of view: You are lucid, when you know, it is a dream.

In another point of view, it is more differentiated, because there are certainly different aspects of lucidity. Just let me quote (and translate) Paul Tholey, a German LDer and psychologist:

1. Being clear about the state of mind. (you know exactly, if it is dreaming or waking)

2. Being clear about free personal choice (you don't have to flee your nightmare - characters, but can take different decisions)

3. Being clear in conscience (there is no dreamlike confusion or dullness of conscience)

4.Perception is clear (you smell, taste, hear, see and feel as in waking life)

5.Being clear about waking life (you know exactly, who you are, what you did the previous day and even what you planned for this dream)

6.The dream recall or memory is clear (the normal memory functions are working as good, as they use to in waking life, in which you remember dreams, and especially well lucid dreams)

7.Being clear about what the dream symbolises.

For Tholey a "real" lucid dream shows all aspects. Most of us are (justly, as I think) satisfied with aspect #1. Everyone, who performs pre planned tasks in an LD shows more aspects. I think, that Tholey's aspects show a direction, in that our lucidity can develop.

So, the more differentiated answer is: There is a scale or a range of lucidity. Just see, what you have achieved and work on new aspects. Point #7 may arouse a discussion, because not everyone subscribes to the thought, that dreams have a meaning.

Another thing about your (and my) dreams is: Every new learned skill can get a habit. This is the case for state checks, habitual thinking of dreams, speaking and writing about dreams and so on. If such habits appear in dreaming or waking, there is not much conscience, not much awareness.

This is a quote taken from " Varieties of Lucid Dreaming Experience" by Stephen LaBerge and Donald J. DeGracia: "According to Baars, context formation initially requires conscious participation. But, once established, contexts are unconscious factors framing conscious experience. Many such contexts accumulate within the waking personality as a function of learning and life experiences, and mold and frame the conscious aspects of waking." And the authors go on and state the same for the dreaming state.

If awareness is a kind of energy, being more or less intense, we have to combine it with Tholey's scale and get from the first to the second dimension of lucidity. Maybe lucidity is a multi - dimensional happening. There may be another kind of factor, that belongs to the observation of "tacit" lucidity. Lucidity seems to be not only a mental, linguistic process, but an emotional, too, in the sense, that it may be nested in emotional contexts. Tholey writes, that unconscious resistance against self - discovery may prevent lucidity. But tacit may, too, mean that the lucid dreaming context is not activated enough. Maybe this activation needs emotional "energy", like Adastra wrote in this thread. Where from do we get the feeling, the intuition, that something is strange, odd, wrong about the situation, we are in?

Let's activate the lucid context more often!

Ralf

Dear Raf, Thanks for the very insightful reply! Reading this Forum never fails to inspire me to put more effort into developing my dreaming skills. I am tremendously impressed with the quality of people and intelligence of this forum. I've looked at several others and they are much more superficial & unscientific. What is the source of your quotes from Tholey, it seems interesting 2nd source of info on LD?

Thanks, Ralf, for the Tholey material. I've read a couple of articles by him online, and find his viewpoint very interesting. He seems to have done a lot of shamanic sort of things in dreams from what little of his stuff I've read - such as cutting his dreambody in half or burning up his dreambody in fire. Have you read his books, and has he spoken of these type of experiments in greater depth? I wish more of his stuff would be translated into English. His books would be of benefit to the lucid dreaming community here I'm sure.

What you say about Tholey's idea that unconscious resistence against self-discovery blocks lucid dreaming reminds me of similar ideas expressed in Kenneth Kelzer's THE SUN AND THE SHADOW. As I recall, he talked about lucid dreaming largely as a way to get more in touch with your unconscious, and suggested that as you become more in touch with your true self, you will tend to have more lucidity in dreams; and conversely, as you work with lucid dreaming you tend to become more in touch with your total self.

Hi, dreamers!

Ted, thanks for the laurel leaves. We all work hard on keeping up this quality. This is exactly why I'm participating in THIS Forum.

I've only read one book by Tholey, and I think, it isn't translated into English. It is his basic popular "how - to - do - it" book. I found his writings very interesting, but not as practical, as LaBerge's approach. Maybe I should myself take a longer look inside the following text, Adastra, I haven't been aware of his shaman thing. These are the English texts I found on the web in a short search:

Overview of the Development of Lucid Dream Research in Germany PAUL THOLEY:

http://sawka.com/spiritwatch/overview.htm

Society for Gestalt Theory and its Applications (GTA) Bibliography of the Writings of Paul Tholey 1971-1998 compiled by Gerhard Stemberger):

http://www.enabling.org/ia/gestalt/gerhards/thol_biblio.html

A short note on the death of Paul Tholey in 1998:

http://www.oniros.fr/news.html#THOLEY

Hi, all!

I'm a newcomer to this forum and delighted to find such an interesting, thoughtful, well-informed and relevant discussion underway.

I've been thinking about degrees of lucidity because I've been participating in the sleep posture experiment. On waking from each dream participants fill out a form giving a rating of 1 to 6 for features such as activity, speech, emotion - but flatly characterizing dreams as wake-induced lucid, dream-induced lucid, or nonlucid.

I've been counting dreams as nonlucid if they treat the topic of lucidity without my having any clear awareness that I'm dreaming at the moment - even if I'm going around earnestly showing the dream report form to people and explaining its purpose, or doing something like flying that I can only do in dreams and often choose to do when lucid.

As for lucid dreams, I'd feel more comfortable if I were also rating them on a scale of 1 to 6. Realizing I'm dreaming and promptly waking up would be a "1." Lucidly but passively observing might rate a "2," and so on. A long dream in which I go from one scene to another with no loss of awareness, thoroughly enjoying my lucid state, reveling in the vividness of sensory perceptions, trying various experiments that I've planned in advance and others that occur to me spontaneously - I guess I'd give that a "4" or "5." This would be a dream having at least six of Tholey's seven criteria that Ralf listed above. (Lately I have dreams like this once or twice a week, although sometimes several in one night.)

Tholey's seventh criterion gives me pause. If we do interpret a dream symbolically, how can we be certain we know what it symbolizes?

Also, there are aspects of lucidity that Tholey didn't list, but I think some of you have experienced these too. If I may propose adding to the list:

8. Sensory perception that impresses us as being MORE clear than what we experience in daily life.

9. The feeling that the dream is a particularly significant one, that seems to tap into a source beyond our familiar self-identities.

10. Telepathy or precognition, confirmed during waking life.

Once in a while I have a rare and wonderful dream with all of these aspects. In what little I've read about Tibetan dream yoga - I'm a beginner at all this - it seems that some sources would call this a "dream of clarity" and some would call it a "clear light dream," while others reserve the latter term for an extraordinary type of dream achieved by advanced practitioners in which they are lucid within a state of non-dual awareness (i.e. at-least-temporary "enlightenment"). So we could add a #11 to the list begun by Tholey, and I could reserve for this experience the ultimate rating on my scale of 1 to 6....

Any thoughts on all of this?

At risk of cluttering a single posting with too many topics, I'd like to ask another question. One type of dream that I've experienced for the last three or four weeks really puzzled me at first as to whether it counted as lucid, because it's entirely abstract. These occur early on in the night and consist of light, color, geometric pattern, and intense energy and awareness. I think, "This is an amazing dream; I have to remember this," and I do, even though I often pass through a long period of non-aware sleep before I wake to record it. After this type of event recurred a few times I decided I couldn't discount these dreams as non-lucid just because they don't have a story line. Does anyone else have experience with or insight into dreams like this?

Joy

Joy

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your funny and thoughtful postings. I wish I had as much LD as you, I'm in a dry spell. I use this time to get another approach to RC and establish a new sleeping pattern. Nonetheless it is interesting to discuss lucidity...

Firstly I must add a few words regarding my translation of Tholey's aspects of lucidity: Tholey wrote, that he discerns lucid dreams and clear dreams. His aspects belong to his definition of clear dreams. He defines (normal) lucid dreams as not that clear.

Interpretation of symbols: Yes, this is a good question. But I think, the question isn't, whether one interprets right, but whether one realises, that he is dealing with symbols and reflects on symbolic meanings and lets this thoughts direct his actions.

The question regarding one dimensional scaling /rating are many. Some seem to make more sense, than others. Do you know LaBerge's DSA (Dreamsign Awareness) rating scale? That makes sense for me: 0: I did only notice something has been odd, when I remember the dream. 1: During dreaming bizarre events seem odd to me. 2: I tried to explain oddities 3: I came to the right conclusion: I'm dreaming! 4: I have already been lucid, when the dreamsign (oddity) appeared. Every step is concerning the cognition of oddities and every higher step grounds in the previous.

If you look at Tholey's list, this isn't the case, e.g. dream memory (6) can be clear, while perception(4) is fuzzy.

"8) Sensory perception that impresses us as being MORE clear than what we experience in daily life." I've experienced this in LDs. Maybe the rating should be higher than in the waking state. But my impression is, that dealing with LD intensifies waking life senses / perceptions in the long run. That means, we have to adjust our scales. And I think your point belongs to quality /intensity of perception, that is Tholey's (4). The thing about this point is, that there are NLD, that are very intense, too. So clearness of perception doesn't depend on lucidity. I think, this is the case for Psi dreams, too.

Feeling of significance: Hm. Yep, I know that feeling.

Clear light dreams: I've heard of them, and own a book about Tibetan dream yoga (I've only read a few lines until now). I'm looking forward to this kind of experiences, dreams have already brought me closer to the light... that is what I feel. I think these dreams belong to a special category: High dreams. Maybe we don't need to categorise everything and can take it as it is.

I would say, there are aspects of dreams in general, and some of them relate to lucidity. The aspects of dreams are multidimensional (just as waking life, I think) and only in parts scalable. Take this example of a "clear light dream" and compare to a LD with fuzzy surroundings but important, deep insights in my self. Or one in that you embrace a deceased beloved full of joy. Which dream is "higher"? OK. Maybe I would agree, that non -dual awareness is a higher (that means opener, wider, deeper, more embracing) from the point of view of evolution of consciousness. But what I want to say is, that I would maybe give all these dreams a six on your scale.

And... Perhaps there is no ultimate rating, as there seems to be no end to evolution.

"These occur early on in the night and consist of light, color, geometric pattern, and intense energy and awareness. ... Does anyone else have experience with or insight into dreams like this?"

I suggest to read:

http://www.lucidity.com/VOLDE.html

QUOTE ... 2. Surreal Perceptual Environments ...

(DJD70) "I got the idea to shut my eyes, spin around rapidly, and pretend that I was shrinking. When I did this and opened my eyes up I was quite surprised to see that I was actually somewhere else! And what I saw when I opened my eyes was amazing. I was in the midst of a spectacular panorama of swirling activity and spiraling colors. The scene was staggering in its complexity. I was floating amongst the images, floating surrounded by these moving color patterns. I remember that I was amazed, but baffled, and didn?t understand in the least what I was looking at, other than that it was very beautiful and moving around too much to make out any definite structure."

END QUOTE

Hope that helps

Looking forward for your dream reports. And... The standard - question for a "newbe": Please explain, how you developed or trained lucidity. Do you perform any daytime practise like reality checks? It is interesting for all, how people can frequently gain lucidity.

Thank you in advance

Ralf

Hi, Ralf (and other forum participants), and thank you for the welcome!

There is a great deal I could say in reply to your thought-provoking response. I think I'll answer your last question at some length, not only "how" but "why," because my answer will touch upon some of the other ideas.

My development of lucid dreaming began when I was 5 or 6 years old with recurring dreams about once a year that featured a huge full moon, which both fascinated and frightened me. By the time I was ten I'd say, "Oh, it's the moon dream again!"

I was always intrigued by dreams and by the nature of awareness and possibilities of consciousness, all the more so since my first telepathic dream at age 11 - waking up and describing to my sister the dream I'd just had about her, to her amazement as she'd just been dreaming nearly-identical events in an identical unfamiliar scene. I continued having occasional telepathic or precognitive dreams for years.

My adolescence was at the height of the "psychedelic" era and although I was surrounded and tempted by drugs purported to allow exploration of alternate states of consciousness, I'd also heard that one could do so with the mind alone and I held out for that - but put it off until later.

Some time in young adulthood I read (in Smithsonian magazine?) an article on lucid dreams. It surprised me to learn that they had a name, were uncommon, and people actually go to effort to try to acquire them, because I took them for granted. They showed up about six or ten times a year and were a lot of fun; usually I'd go flying. Nothing about the article piqued an interest in trying to increase their frequency.

During the practical, rational years of raising a child, getting educated and working as a biologist, I rarely had "psi" experiences but never lost the certainty that science's apparent inability to investigate such phenomena effectively was neither a fundamental defect of science nor a discounting of my subjective experiences but rather reflected science's current stage of development.

Just about a year ago, when I was 44, a new friend told me that some people pursue lucid dreaming as part of a spiritual practice with the intent of developing and exploring the possibilities of consciousness and awareness. He loaned me one of Carlos Castaneda's books on the subject. I began reading it, was incredulous at Castaneda's reported difficulty in achieving lucidity, thought "bet I could do it," and that night had a knockout lucid dream.

Castaneda's purposes and practices didn't appeal to me. With my main practice being just a mild intent,I went on having lucid dreams about once a week. But some practices occurred or were suggested to me via dreams. In that very first intentionally-evoked lucid dream, I noted how clear and brilliant visual phenomena appeared. I thought after waking, probably everyday reality is just as vivid, if I were to pay attention and notice! - and I began doing so.

One time I was lying half-awake in a particular position, hoping to fall asleep and have a lucid dream, and an entity whom I'd met in a dream seemed to suggest I try another position. I did and was instantly catapulted into lucid dream. I began favoring that position when I wanted to be lucid; it sort of seemed to work sometimes. (I'm being intentionally oblique here; tell you why in a bit.)

Also, I found that there was a particular hard-to-describe light, tingly, floaty feeling in my feet that I could induce at will and that seemed conducive to lucid dreaming.

I was happy to find that along with the increase in lucid dreaming came a resurgence of telepathic or precognitive dreams.

In early July of this year I found (at a friend's suggestion) the LI website and zeroed in on the experiment testing Tibetan dream yoga recommendations for sleep posture. I'd never heard of Tibetan dream yoga but it sounded intriguing - some other influences were converging upon an interest in Buddhist practices - and I was definitely motivated by the opportunity to assist science in making some progress toward describing elusive state-of-consciousness phenomena. So I sent for the experiment materials and, at the same time, ordered the book "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche (which I recommend most highly).

I soon learned that my "daytime practice" is related to both ancient Tibetan and recent Lucidity Institute-advocated ideas. It seems that the Tibetans emphasize going about during the day telling themselves, "This is a dream," while the Lucidians emphasize going about during the day asking themselves, "Is this a dream?" I go about observing (when I remember), "Wow! This is as vivid as a dream." I also found that the Tibetans' preferred sleep positions vary among sources, but the first book I read advocated the one I'd discovered. Most recently I heard a taped lecture by the same author describe a bedtime technique of "feeling love in the soles of your feet" - as good a description as any I could muster of how to induce that light-footed feeling. Along with all this corroboration of my subjective experience, I really took to the dream yoga tradition's explanations of the purpose and value of lucid dreaming as a means of exploring and expanding awareness (and the ultimate reasons for this).

So I simultaneously embarked with great enthusiasm on both the sleep position experiment and on dream yoga practices - EXCEPT for the Tibetan suggestions regarding sleep position. I tried to randomize position for the sake of the experiment.

I tend to credit the experimental technique itself with boosting my frequency of lucid dreams. It includes waking at intervals to rate (and thus necessarily reflect upon) aspects of all one's dreams on the 0 to 6 scale I mentioned, and recording in detail one's lucid dreams. Then there's the dream yoga techniques, plus the motivation of both the experiment and the dream yoga principles.

Soon I was experiencing some degree of lucidity almost constantly and long, elaborate, highly lucid dreams nearly every night and sometimes three or four in one night. It got to where it seemed I was spending one third of my life sleeping and the other two thirds writing down my dreams. The experiment was supposed to end on July 31 but they kept telling me, "We need more data - please keep going." Finally I said I wasn't sure I could go on putting so much time into it, and by way of thanks they granted me a membership in this forum. Great! - that's all I need - another reason to spend my days writing about dreams!

I've gone on too long already. I agree that linear ratings values aren't really applicable and we should not limit possibilities with a preconceived maximum. I thank you for the very relevant and helpful link to "Surreal Perceptual Environments." I'd like to encourage everyone to participate in the sleep position experiment: for the advancement of science, to increase your own rate of lucidity, and to give those folks enough data and get me off the hook. I've tried not to bias you as to position (although frankly I suspect many people have a preferred position and the experiment ought to include a query re: this).

If you really want me to post dream reports, what interests you: Surreal ones? One in which I climbed a mountainside while gradually developing the aspects of lucidity we've discussed (all but #11)? My most recent dream, which although not lucid, answered a question I posed before sleeping and also seemed to praise this forum in a delightful way?

I promise I'll go away to work this week and not take up so much space,

Joy

Joy,

Terrifice letter! and inspiring. Where did you get the tape you referred to by Tenzin Wangyal R.? The aspect of stimulating the soles of the feet mentally is very similar to a procedure taught by Robert Bruce to induce out of body experiences.

Doug

Well, glad you liked it! Actually I've felt terribly embarrassed all day about having gone on at such length - figured I'd log on and find a reprimand from the moderators.

I borrowed the series of six tapes from a friend - "The Power of Dreams" - info on the back says "The Ligmincha Institute, P.O. Box 1892, Charlottesville, Virginia, 22902 USA; Phone: (804) 977-6161; Fax: (804) 977-7020; Internet: http://www.comet.net/ligmincha/; E-mail: Ligmincha@aol.com." I just started listening - it's an informally taped series of lectures or classes - seems excellent as a supplement to the book, as it expands upon the material in it plus you get more of his sense of humor.

Weird, the soles-of-feet thing - tell us more? (Or should we adjourn to the "anecdotal induction techniques" thread for that?)

Joy

It might not be really relevant to this forum. You can read about it in Astral Dynamics. He goes into great detail. I think the gist of it is it puts you in touch with the non physical body, somewhat like the Monroe tapes. I ordered the book you mentioned, which looks like the most complete treatment of Tibetan dream yoga in print. The only other Tibetan teachings I've experienced so far on LD was a talk I heard in the Sante Fe stupa a long time ago. Can't remember the names of the two teachers. They were very short, but that's probably true of most Tibetans. The talk was also short. They did mention a position to use when falling asleep, but it was sitting up (!) with your legs crossed in front of you. I assume this is not the position you yourself use. I can't imagine faling asleep in that position.

Doug

Yeah, that's not one of my typical positions, but I did find somewhere a Tibetan recommendation that Westerners try that position by propping themselves up with pillows. Westerners can overcome many cultural handicaps with sufficient pillow support. I myself slept sort of like that for weeks after 2 occasions of crashing my bicycle and breaking a shoulder, but I don't remember what I dreamed....

Joy

Hi, Joy

Thanks for your long, interesting and detailed posting. Surely I would like to read some of your dream reports. I like all kinds of LD, but especially those, where intriguing experiments are carried out, those which give examples of prolonging techniques, funny reality checking situations, deep philosophical or psychological insights, high dreams, transcendent dreams, "magical" dreams, telepathic or precognitive dreams, ...

I think, if one is a scientists or one at least knows what science means, one can get an unique understanding of the possibilities of LDing. Maybe because one isn't that much influenced by "woo - woo" concepts. But main stream science alone wouldn't motivate to choose this field. Personal experience seems to be essential.

"But some practices occurred or were suggested to me via dreams." Does that mean, your dreams or dream characters showed you how to better LD? Would you describe this? You gave an example. Are there more of them?

"It got to where it seemed I was spending one third of my life sleeping and the other two thirds writing down my dreams."

I has that phases, too, but not that much LDs. It is a very special mood, a strange "mode" of existence to be so close to the dreaming and sleeping world.

"I'd like to encourage everyone to participate in the sleep position experiment:"

I had already downloaded the sheets some weeks ago. But due to my poor LD frequency didn't start the experiment. I hope your experiences encourage me to make a start. Feels like it.

"I promise I'll go away to work this week and not take up so much space,"

Don't think so! I sometimes think so, too. But posting (long postings, too!) is what keeps the forum alive!

Please post some of your LD, I think, they will be motivating for many forum members.

Keep on good work

Yours Ralf

P.S. This thought just crossed my mind: Do you profit from morphing into an animal regarding your wildlife studies? I mean: Do you "understand" animals better by doing this?

Hi, Ralf -

I am rapidly getting over the cautious skepticism I felt when first entering this forum. What a delight to share inspiration with you all!

Right now I'm really sleepy and need to go do some dreaming! I'll answer your questions another time soon - but here is a slightly edited excerpt from my dream reports submitted for the experiment. I have lots of funny reality checks; a few ways of prolonging dreams; no deep insights that I can recognize as such! Maybe sometime soon I'll sort through my old dream reports and see what I can find for you along those lines. I'm not sure what is "high" or "transcendent" but the one below might be that, or "magical," and telepathic or precognitive. It had that feeling of something from beyond my "self" and fits into the topic of degrees of lucidity - you'll see....

22 September 2001

Here is a slow build-up to full lucidity with lots of hints. The feel of this dream was very peaceful, open and clear, in contrast to frenetic, colorful, crowded, action-packed dreams that preceded it.

Early in the morning I left town - not this town but a much larger one, more like where I grew up but not quite that either (and I thought all of this within the dream) - and climbed westward up a high steep treeless mountainside. I climbed up through a layer of clouds to where the sky was clear and blue, just slightly misty, and I could look down on the clouds below wrapping around the hills and spreading out over the bay. I climbed up and up, into an area where a few dozen people were camping despite its being so steep - sleeping in small, scattered level spots - and were just beginning to wake up, wide-eyed, happy and convivial. The mood all around was of joyful wonderment and my definite impression was that I had come upon some sort of spiritual retreat. I heard one young man (with longish curly light brown hair) say to another, "Wow, I just had the most amazing dream!" and I noted that he didn't seem to me to be particularly aware of the concept of lucidity, but rather interested in the content of his dream. At this point I was thinking about clarity and dream lucidity but was not fully aware that I myself was dreaming.

I gathered that the people in charge were camped higher up, intentionally out of sight of the relative neophytes at this level, but I felt that it was OK for me as a visitor - not a part of this hierarchy - to go on up. I continued climbing upward, through more people. I wanted them to realize that they were above the clouds, but I felt constrained from pointing this out to them: it seemed important that they notice for themselves. One person asked me if I had come from below and said, "It isn't any better down there, is it" - not as a question but rather asking me to confirm his impression, which I did. He seemed aware that it was cloudy down there, but not that it was clear up here.

Continuing up, I encountered a fault line forming a long, vertical cliff that was too loose and crumbly to climb up. Trying unsuccessfully to climb an extremely steep, crumbling slope is an old recurring dream theme of mine, so at this point I became still more lucid: I didn't entirely latch onto the fact that I was dreaming, but rather recognized that this was a particular familiar type of situation and that I had a newly developed confidence in my ability to deal with this sort of thing. Happily accepting the challenge, I thought, "There's no reason why there can't be a path going up this diagonally." I looked to my left and there it was. A woman nearby said, "Good work!" - confirming my feeling that I had created the path by willing its existence. By now I was nearly fully lucid.

I climbed up the path and noticed a lake to my right. Just then, from far to my left, I heard a man's voice calling from behind a single large rock: "Hey, Joy!" I thought, who knows me here? I looked that way and heard him yell again: "It's me, ____!" - he gave the name of K [father of my son], but the man who emerged from behind a boulder was someone else with the same name, a huge, dark-haired guy I didn't recognize but he reminded me of D.S., the strongest man I have ever known personally - a young farmer who years ago was a local legend for his phenomenal strength.

I remembered having dreamed two nights ago of a person identified as K who didn't really look like him, and I finally recognized decisively that I was dreaming. Unfortunately I started waking up. I thought, spin, do something [any physical activity helps me stay dreaming]; how about swimming in the lake? I went to the lake accompanied by the unfamiliar big strong man, but the dream continued to fade.

Next I saw two concentric rings, like wedding rings, one large and one small, and heard "He's only interested in you for physical reasons." I didn't associate the unseen speaker or the "he" or "you" with any particular entity. That was the last good solid dream fragment before I gradually, driftingly, reluctantly woke up.

Evening of the same day: I read in "Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light" [pp. 106-107] a very old Tibetan story about a young woman who went up on a mountain, fell asleep under a large rock that was "the support" of an important local guardian, and dreamed she was "near the rock with a young, very strong man'.They talked together and had sexual contact'." and she gave birth to a phenomenally strong baby who grew up to become a local hero.

Hi, Joy

Thanks a lot for your LD report. And take a look at which fruits our discussion did bear in my dreams.

Thank you

Ralf

Science gives us Occam's razor, the principle that gives greater weight to the most parsimonious explanation. My lucid dream accounts are full of notes like "could be telepathic but just as likely conicidence." Ralf and I both started out driving and ended up flying last night. I'd love to think that was telepathic and it may have been, but since these are two common dream elements, it was just as likely coincidence.

But when we get something with so many matching elements of detail that the level of coincidence really defies probablility, Occam's razor demands we consider other possibilities.

What was going on when I dreamed several essential elements of an ancient Tibetan story the night before I read it? If I had a favorite "woo-woo" concept I might attribute it to some combination of precognition, past life memory, spirit guides, a brief clear connection to the one universal consciousness.... all of which might well be possible, and in other cultural traditions would be considered probable.

From the standpoint of Western science I just have to say, at this point I don't know. It would be unscientific to discount my own experience just because science hasn't yet figured out how to explain and quantify such phenomena objectively. My response is to take it as another little piece of evidence (along with relativity, quantum physics, perspectives from other cultures, etc.) that there is much more to reality than what our ordinary senses, everyday habits and cultural biases allow us to perceive. And I do think that makes me all the more open to greater lucidity. I've been reading Alan Wallace's "Buddhism With an Attitude" and I like how he expresses the idea that the mind itself is our best tool for exploring the possibilities of awareness, and it behooves us to hone it for this purpose.

Einstein, even though he himself made it clear that human perceptions of time and space are illusory, was troubled by the implications of the EPR thought-experiment which predicted that separated quantum particles would, when measured, instantaneously impart a spin to each other. He called it "spooky action at a distance." Later the experiment was carried out and the effect has proved true across distances of several miles. I mention this just to remind us all that time and space are not what our sensory apparatus and habitual modes of perception make them appear to be. Science may or may not be able to explain telepathy and precognition some day. Meanwhile let's be open and alert to the possibilities as we strive for the greatest possible degree of lucidity.

In celebration of Halloween, then, I wish you all "spooky action at a distance,"

Joy

Hey Ralf, I meant to respond to your remarks of Tuesday & sort of got carried away on the science topic - sometimes the urge to write an essay strikes....

To answer your next question, no, I only have that one instance of a dream entity suggesting a dreaming technique within a dream.

Hope you try the experiment and whether you do or not I'm really pleased that our conversation got you started!

Too early to say if dreaming myself as an animal helps me with wildlife work. In general, though, I think that the whole body of dream practice with its attentiveness and feedback between waking and sleeping life helps keep me alert, observant and intuitive.

The following dream is dedicated to all participants in this forum:

A few nights ago before going to bed I was re-reading the introduction to Tenzin Wangyal Rimpoche's book in which he urges those who want to learn the dream practice not to rely on books alone but to try to connect with an experienced teacher. I wondered, should I be looking for a teacher? I remembered having read someone's suggestion somewhere in this forum of, when you want to know something, asking a dream character a direct question - an idea that hadn't ever occurred to me. So I resolved to ask that night.

In my last dream of the morning I was not lucid except in a subliminal way, observing a scene from above, all with an extraordinarily joyful feeling. I was watching a group of children who (I knew without being told or shown) didn't go to school but learned independently, and they were incredibly bright, motivated, excited, enthusiastic, high-spirited and shared a wonderful camraderie. Every morning before going off on their own, they got together to do what I was seeing: form a long curving line, touching hands, such that the current of their energy passed through all of them.

At the conventional school in the neighborhood there was a traditional teacher who knew about these kids and wanted her students to connect with them, for the benefit of both groups. So every morning they, too, would form a line and run over and touch hands with the waving curving line of independent learners.

I woke up still infused with that almost inexplicably, disproportionately joyous feeling, thinking, wow, what a wonderful dream! A beautiful sunrise was beginning and I was going to stay awake and watch it, but thought, wait - no - I haven't had a lucid dream yet and I have to ask my question! And the question was.... OH!

Hi, Joy

I love your dream-metaphor for the forum! I've also been enjoying reading your dream reports and your very lucid commentary.