Hello...Ralf

I think I asked you this kind of thing before. In the short LD you report above I think you had time to launch yourself into a spin, have you made a serious effort on this. In my experience rubbing hands is no good if the loss of the visual field has begun, but something really dramatic like spinning can keep the brain asleep....in my opinion.

Owen

Hello there!

I'm still trying to reach that village I talked about earlier but I haven't succeeded yet. Yesterday I tried it again. I stood out on the street not far from our house. First I flew around for 7-8 second then I remembered my village. I was forced to remove or neighbour because he was disturbing my concentration. Then I closed my eyes, reached into my memory and collected the picture of the village. It was perfect and I saw it so clearly. But it was just a picture in my mind. How do I get there? I've changed the scenery a few times before, but I don't remember how I've did. I've just changed it. I tried to push the picture back from my eyes and kind of paint it on the surroundings. But it didn't work. I think this was too much brain activity, because I felt how the dream was becoming increasingly unstable. I dropped the try and hoped the dream would stabilize. But it didn't. As a last desperate try I did the spinning-technique. It didn't work, as always. It was rather as the last remains of my dream were spun away. I dropped the try after 5-6 second and instead I used the "relax-technique". (Still don't know what's the correct name, if it have any of course. If you want to you can inform me" maybe?) And shortly thereafter I found myself in another LD"

Well, I have some ideas of how I should have done instead in order to come to my village. For example I think I could have imagined it as a painting on a wall, or something instead of just a "fantasy-picture" only existing in my mind. If I had done that I could then maybe have stepped through the wall and that way entered the dream. Or maybe I could have tried to come there by pretending it was some kind of computer program and by commanding something like; "Load map village.hs3". I don't know if any of these action could have changed the dream. What do you think?

Or is there maybe already some researcher who have come up with a good technique to use in order to changed the dream scenery? If yes, please tell me" Or do any of you people maybe have a theory of your own? I would like to know"

Anyway, as it is for the moment I think I put my "live-village" on ice for a while. I believe this was the third, or maybe fourth try which led to that I lost the dream. In next lucid dream I get I will try to do something simpler. And a person named Owen just gave me a great idea. Ripping your own heart out! Would that be cool or what" That's what I'll do next time I have a lucid dream" I wonder how it feels" hm'

Linus...IMO be cautious EOM !

Owen

IMO? EOM? JNO! UOM!!

Anyway... I tried it this morning. Ripping my own heart out, I mean. But I didn't succeed. I slowly pushed my hand into my chest but I couldn't get past my ribs. I could stick my forefinger in between my ribs and touch my heart. But I couldn't come closer. Still, it was quite fun anyway. My heart really was there beating. Since I didn't succeed I thought I maybe needed to train myself first, as you said you had done Owen. I went to a wall and did the same experiment as you wrote about. First I pushed my left hand against the wall. It didn't get through, and that was the meaning. Then I did the same with my right hand, but this time I wanted it to get through. But it didn't work. Not until the third try I managed to make it go through. Next time my ribbons wont be able to stop me" I will succeed!

By the way, I came to think of how it feels when you penetrate solid objects like this. I haven't done it more then two times before. Three now that is. However, all times it has felt almost the same. The point where I wanted to penetrate the object has changed into some kind of viscous fluid. And inside it have been the same. Like some kind of mixture between jelly and yoghurt. It haven't been sticky, not at all. It's the consistency I talk about. And it have been pretty cool too. Not freezing, just cool"

How does it feel for you? Is it just a total void? Or what do you feel when you penetrate a wall for example? What do you find inside?

Hi Owen and Linus

Owen, thanks for the tip using spinning. I will try it next time. My problem is, that I don't remember my tasks in the first lucid instance and awake very fast. The penetration experiments of you both are very interesting. I had a similar experience in one of my last LDs. (I posted it in this tread) I wasn't able to penetrate a windows pane and a wall. Finally I made it with the pane in a second try. It felt like a kind of jelly, but not cold.

I envy you. The next thing on my mind is focussing on MILD in morning sessions, increase LD frequency and use prolonging techniques. I'm a lazy dreamer these days. Thanks to you, that you share your experiences and thoughts and keep me motivated.

Yours Ralf

Hello Ralf,

Although I have been able to do a few interesting things while lucid, my progress seems not all positive. At my peak of success in June I had 15 LDs, but since then I have dropped back to 1-2 per week with increasingly longer gaps. One good thing is that I have had more near lucid dreams just recently and an increased number of dreams in which the subject of lucid dreaming crops up. I think I can identify a number of factors that have conspired to frustrate me.

1. My dream recall ability continues to increase. Earlier in the year I would lie in bed desperately trying to recall dreams and become frustrated if I did not, and often I would become fully awake. I believe that the attempts to recall dream fragments and the wakefulness might explain the larger number of spontaneous LDs I had then compared with now. Now I seem to just note the dream and drift back to sleep, not good for LD induction I think.

2. Compared with earlier days my dreams are longer and much more detailed and in a way more mundane and less weird. Often I struggle to identify dreamsigns.

3. I also have a suspicion that my dreaming brain is fighting back and becoming increasingly cunning at rationalizing dreamsigns when they do occur. I have had some very amusing dreams in which I have talked myself out of the oddness of such things as dead relatives and talking animals.

4. I find it more difficult now to sustain the will required to practice prospective memory exercises and to write in my dream diary during the night, despite my best intentions - I too am lazy. I should say that I can still do these things but the effort required is greater than it used to be.

I am still very interested in and fascinated by lucid dreaming but it is possible that, for me, a more relaxed attitude goes together with less strong motivation. I think you have a good calm and patient attitude. I'm not an expert, but in the long run I suspect this will be important. And of course you are much younger than me and thus have more time to succeed in your goals!!

Best wishes,

Owen

Dear Owen:

Thank you for your articulate description of "Foliage Meditation" experiences. I've neither read nor heard of such a practice. It sounds very intriguing as a mind-focusing challenge and especially appealing as a visualization exercise. I shall give it a try soon and let you know what comes of it.

And Mary: Thank you as well for the "Letting Go" technique you've shared. I imagine such a practice could be of benefit in both waking and dreaming realms.

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin

Dear Fellow Oneiroanuts,

Speaking of the illusory Land of Odd... In lucid dreams in which I've intentionally examined passing through what would be commonly considered solid in the waking state, I've found the following:

• Glass has felt like a layer of cool water sandwiched between air

• Wood has had a neutral temperature and a density somewhat like dry grain

• No thickness or textural sensation when passing through a mirror

• My dream body fingers have felt completely illusory, but gain substance and become more and more impenetrable as I slowly rise to wakefulness.

None of these perceptions seem extraordinary, considering the context, and I suspect they are highly influenced by expectation and imagination. I have never thought about taking out any body part, although I did spontaneously find my head detached in one lucid dream. Unexplainable how I was able to watch it bobbing about the room like a semi-filled helium balloon. One might wonder: Was that head half empty or half full? (It was a rather pleasant experience, just in case anyone's awondering).

Sweet dreams to all! Keelin

6./7. September 2001

Dear Owen,

thanks for your supportive words.

I'm into RC's again after a four weeks break. It feels funny. And it feels good to be back in the routine: Get up, write down dreams, write some notes in the Forum, prepare the day's targets for RC/RI, do it, live it, look back at the day in the evening, dream (sometimes lucid), get up, ... Today (6.9.)I tried the MILD, but my first move, when the alarm clock beeped after five hours of sleep wiped out the last dream. I went back to sleep. Next time I'm going to use SND wake - alarm again. One hasn't to move that much to turn it off. I'll just program it.

7.9.

"I also have a suspicion that my dreaming brain is fighting back and becoming increasingly cunning at rationalizing dreamsigns when they do occur."

Yes. This reminds of the wording: "The dream is the keeper of sleep"

"I should say that I can still do these things but the effort required is greater than it used to be."

It is the same for me. After I reached my best score of six LD in July, I simply stopped exercises, although I set a new goal of 12 per month, that I want to reach until the end of the year. I August I had only one LD. It is like at the time, when I had my first LD after trying for nine month: I reached my goal and relaxed. Maybe this is one reason, why LD come in clusters.

"And of course you are much younger than me and thus have more time to succeed in your goals!!"

You are right. But the older I get, the more conscious I spend my time, the more conscious I decide, what for to spend my time. This consciousness is propulsive. Isn't it? Maybe this is a reason, why you are so successful. And another characteristic of your approach seems to be, that you persevere, although you are frustrated. And you talk about your frustration. That is what I often don't do. We already had this topic in the frustration support thread. But I find it worthwhile to emphasise this approach one more time.

Thank you one more time. And look at what I've achieved with MILD today in the thread "dreamcamp Maui".

Motivation, relaxation? Laximotion!

Yours Ralf

About two months ago I had a dream that I was in a large field with a lot of hills and there were airplanes flying overhead very low to the ground. They were bombing us. People were running for shelter but there was nowhere to hide. I was just walking peacefully through the chaos. It was a very scary dream, bad enough to wake me. The great relevence of this dream is that I have had two dreams this year where the same exact thing happened in real life. Two weeks ago I was talking to me wife about these dreams and I told her that I hope the war dream doesn't come true. I also stated that I had a really bad feeling that it might come true, or something in the nature of war. Two days ago when those crazy comokazi airplanes destroyed some of America's most important buildings killing all of those innocent victoms, it kind of freeked me out. What freeks me out more is that I still think that there is more to come and that this is not the end of this nightmere for all Americans. I think my dream was a warning that this was going to happen, I can only pray that this is the end of the madness.

Oh yeah had my 4th lucid dream. It's about dang time! Well I was dreaming a normal dream. I was at my house, of course it wasn't my house. And I looked up and saw something in the sky, my cat saw it too. It was falling towards us and my cat ran out to investigate. It looked like a box of cereal with something hanging from it. The cat caught it and brought it to me (my cat thinks he park canine anyway). I looked at the thing hanging from the box and it said I had won $100,000. It had a number to call and some extension I had to punch in. I remember it being a 4 digit extension starting with a 3. I was asking myself "Is this real or am I dreaming, this can't be real, I must be dreaming". One would THINK i would have become lucid right there, nope. I went inside to call this number and of course, as in most dreams, had a difficult time doing that, couldn't exactly figure out what the number was nor could I remember it when I was trying to dial it, another sure dream sign. At some point soon after I came to the conclusion that I must be dreaming, then it hit me for real, "OH waiting I'm DREAMING!"

Suddenly everything went black, I thought I was going to wake up but held on for dear life. Then I was walking but everything was still black. I got the idea to try to fly, even though I could see nothing. I jumped off the ground and felt the sensation of flying, at first it felt like I was falling but I quickly changed that. I felt wind hitting me and I was turning over while I was flying too just to see what it felt like.

I don't remember actually landing but I do remember I was suddenly in this large house. Still aware I was dreaming. I was telling myself I want to see SOMEONE, anyone. And then I was like how about Sully from Godsmack. HA I walk into this huge room and he is sitting there in this chair but I can't really SEE him. I do remember the house was very large as were the rooms. Very antique looking.

That's all I really remember about the dream, but was very cool that I became lucid and actually held on to the lucidity for a while.

check out http://www.dreamjournal.org

Hi, Ed!

It is important to share dreams and to talk about emotions related with dreams. But this thread is "Post your LUCID dreams". Could you explain, when you became lucid? What was the trigger? What are your favourite techniques for inducing and prolonging LD? You seem to be a prolific lucid one. I'm looking forward to profit from your experience.

Thank you for sharing

Yours Ralf

P.S. I think the hope, that this is the end of madness, is in vain.

Hi, Kelly

Your last post was some month ago. Nice to hear of your success. Does the Novadreamer pay off? It seems so, if you win 100.000...

What did you do to get lucid? Any daytime practise?

Keep us posted on progress

Ralf

Just to state that I did the prolonging task: I've written a longer comment in the thread: Open Conversation - Dreamcamp Maui

This night 12.9.: I awake at 04:30 am. I have heartburn. I think, I ate too much while my emotions were still troubled by the pictures of the horrible tragedies in America. I lie awake and think, this is an occasion for MILD. I try to recall dreams. At 5:00 am my Astrid gets up, she has to go to work. I don't use ND this night.

The following is a sometimes interrupted longer dream:

I'm at a doctor's practise. We both sit on a table and he interrogates me regarding my medical history and my current symptoms. He is of my age. I don't feel ill. It is a personal atmosphere. Nearly like being at home. The doctor takes a convenient position. I wonder, if he is really continuing to be interested in my case. He tends to drop off. After some questions and answers the medical secretary or charwoman comes , opens a door - like window. She shows me the window as a warning. I go there and nearly fall. We are very high above the ground. There is no balcony, but she steps outside and enters an entrance a floor below. I can just keep from falling down, pull myself in again. The doctor must have been standing up. I take a look at his writing. It makes no sense. It is like I suspected: He is ill. I'm depressed. Who should heal me now? Now he is in his chair again. He is sweating, trembling, not responsive. I think this is a seizure. I think about calling an ambulance. With his last remains of consciousness he expresses, that he doesn't want to. Has he something to hide? Is this a seizure due to deprivation of alcohol? Or maybe due to low level of blood sugar or a "Phaeochromcytom" (excessive autonomous adrenaline production) - crisis? I take his blood sugar. 103 mg/100ml. That is normal. I try to measure the blood pressure. There are two devices - somehow knotted. The medical secretary is there again. She helps me untangling. We measure synchronous. I feel like I'm too tardy, but there it is: 160/100 mm Hg. She has nearly the same values. That is normal, too. So what is the matter? I already thought about calling an ambulance. Now I dial the number. 112. On the other side is a young person answering. No ambulance. Did I make a mistake in dialing? He seems to wake up again. He stands up and dresses to get warmer. I don't agree to let him go, but he insists. I seem to wake up. The next thing I know is, that I'm outside. Maybe I followed him. There are two dogs playing or fighting near a river. While playing they fall on the ice. It breaks. They manage to get out. But while watching I must have come too close and slide down into the river. That would be no good to fall into this ice cold water, I think. I dip into the water but then rise and start hovering above the water. This must be a dream. Once recognised, it starts to fade. But this time I remember the prolonging task. I'm not spinning, because I want to stay in the scene. I'm not handrubbing, because that seems to be not enough. But I'm swirling very fast with both arms to stabilise the dreambody. It seems to work, but the scene vanishes and is immediately substituted by another: I'm hovering in a room in my mother's house. I stop swirling. The scene is stable. Now great excitement comes over me. The scene fades. I force myself to calm down. I swirl one or two seconds. The scene gains stability. I look around, still hovering. There is a cat sitting on the window sill. It has a tiger - like fur pattern. It is not my mother's cat. She is simply grey. The cat stares very intense into my eyes and so do I. This intensity is more than real. The cat looks more than real. It is a vibrating, deep and detailed sight, that surmounts waking perception by far. I have to force myself to look in another direction. I don't want to awake due to focussing. I shift between looking at the cat and looking at my hands. At first there are no hands, but time by time, shift by shift they gain substance until they look real. I look outside and just the thought of being outside immediately carries me through the closed window. Without any feeling of acceleration, thrust or penetration of matter. Now I'm hovering five meters above my mothers garden. The scene fades again. I try the swirling again. But this time it doesn't work. The scene fades until I'm in the dark. Feeling in physical heavy body. No spinning is possible. I just lie still and recall the dream.

Ralf, It was pure luck. I used the Nova Dreamer for a short time when I got it haven't used it since. Every lucid dream I have had so far has been purely luck or the fact that I had been thinking alot about it. In this instance, I hadn't thought about it in quite sometime, my dream character just didn't seem to believe she could have possibly won and therefore must be dreaming, and about the 3rd time that was said in the dream it just hit me. Kelly

Kelly: Thanks for your answer. I had only few occasions, when ND mask "made" me lucid. But it helps in many different ways. It's not only for the cues, but for strengthening the intention to become lucid. It is part of a nights ritual, too.

Ed: Your desert LD is very impressive. It reminds of what I've read about dream yoga. The yogis make big things small, tiny things big. One out of many, and the multitude in one. Then they make everything disappear. They use dreams as a platform to recognise the illusory / constructed character of perception, of ego and self. Once you've come as far as you describe, maybe that could be an exercise, you can try. This would be total control of yourself and the dream. I will surely try this, once I've stabilised myself in LD. There has been a discussion regarding the difference between lucidity and dream - control. And regarding the difference between the approaches of self - control and "magical" control of elements in your dream. I mostly follow the path of self - control. The deep peace and the magic: I've had similar feelings in NDs and LDs. It is overwhelming. Sometimes emotions are more intense and pure in dreams, than I perceive them in waking life. The LD "world" has only few rules, as it seems. IMHO we can learn a lot using LD state of consciousness to light up day and night. Sometimes LD seems to be a different world. I believe there is only one world, but different states of consciousness we can gain access to.

Would you please go in detail about how you learned lucid dreaming? Do you perform any daytime practise, like reality checks or writing down dreams?

Get lucid!

Ralf

Wednesday, 19. September 2001

The news from WILD lab:

0200 - 0445 am: When the NovaDreamer wake alarm goes off, I'm not able to remember any dreams. While trying to remember I fall asleep again.

0630 I'm awaking by myself with this dreams: Absurdes Aquarium 12092001 #NT #LT #DSA3 #Aquarium #Wasser #Fische #Verzweifelt #Absurd #Moltkestraße Absurd aquarium The tubes of my fish tank's filter system are disconnected. The water is running down on the ground of our apartment. I'm climbing into the aquarium (it contains 200 l) to get the tubes attached. The gravel beneath my feet feels uncomfortable. I'm wondering, that there are no fish and no plants. I am despairing. Now I'm standing in front of the tank and can't get clear about the situation. It is so absurd. I must be dreaming! Yeah! But no time to do anything. I wake up and am immediately drawn into a new, nonlucid scene about the same subject. Comment: For the first time lucidity is triggered by a very frequent dreamsign: Something is wrong with my fish tank. I think, I would have forgotten this lucid phase, if it happened in the middle of the night. I never could believe, one can forget lucid dreams, but it seems so. Next time I will remember to use the prolonging techniques.

But one thing I can tell you: My last two LDs have been MILD attempts or at least in the correlation of these attempts. This technique, performed in the early morning hours after a period of wakefulness seems to be the most powerful one to induce LD. Maybe nothing new for some of you. But why didn't I do it earlier? Life could have been so much easier... I still do the DSA - training in daytime and hit ~ 6 of 8 targets, do 2-4 reflection -intention exercises (liked to make more, but the problem is, that I'm sitting too long on the computer as to encounter enough dreamsigns outside the virtual world ;^> ).

See "DreamCamp Maui" for further details.

Ralf

"There has been a discussion regarding the difference between lucidity and dream - control."

Well, my ordinary dreams have changed, which I have said here at the forum. And my NDLs are often exctly as detailed and such as my LDs. Sometimes I just can't explain what's the difference between my NLD and my LD. The line is kind of blurry. But still, I have no problems saying if one of my dreams was a NLD or a LD. I just know it. I can't really say how. But there's a big different. I've reflected upon my situation and even said things similar to "this is a dream" whitout really getting lucid. I've been in control many times and I've changed things and people around me without being lucid. So I can't explain it... But I feel how big the difference are when you really wake up inside the dream and really understand that it's not reality. It's difference between thinking/saying something and understanding it.

"Sometimes LD seems to be a different world. I believe there is only one world, but different states of consciousness we can gain access to."

Sure, when I say it's another world I don't mean it literally. As I've said once before here at the forum, I'm an atheist. And I don't believe in any parallel worlds or anything like that. Everything we do in the dream world we do in our own heads. It's just a extremely complex and fascinating system of chemical substances and electrical signals and so on" I hope I don't offend any religious believers... But that's what I'm convinced of.

Linus

"But still, I have no problems saying if one of my dreams was a NLD or a LD. I just know it. I can't really say how. But there's a big different." It sounds simple: I'm lucid, if I'm dreaming and in the same instance know, that my body lies sleeping in my bed. Most people subscribe to this definition.

"I hope I don?t offend any religious believers... But that?s what I?m convinced of."

We try not to be intolerant here. Everybody tries. Here are many people with different approaches. There are atheists, too. There are deeply spiritual oriented people. But nobody, who participates in this forum for longer time seems to ignore scientific findings. There are people wanting to find the synthesis of science and spirituality, like me and many others, like LaBerge (IMHO). You don't have to fear, that atheist are excluded. But every point of view is subject to discussion. Somewhere (in your bio?), you said, you are lucid, because you are a sceptic and only believe, in what can be proved.

"Everything we do in the dream world we do in our own heads."

Do you believe in everything, that is "proved", e.g. ESP? (ESP is as proved, as the effect of aspirin on reducing the probability of heart attacks, or even better!). There are many hints, that dreams have effects "outside" the brain. The most simple are physiological reactions like sweating, changes in blood flow, heart frequency, respiration. But there seem to be other things like an effect of dreams on immune system, etc. And then look at these stories of mutual dreams (very rarely, I concede). There is rather strong prove, that ESP happens in dreams more likely, than in waking state. My experiences in some discussions, especially in this forum, followed by some work on newer resources of scientific research and on the scientific method itself, all this has made me cautious to say: This IS so and so, and that CAN'T be. My worldview somehow changed and is now more likely as: "Probably this is the case, if I look at that experiments and this experience, but we have to look at ongoing research."

Keep on doubting. Like Dominick once said: "Open scepticism" is the better expression, than doubt. Feels better for me, he is right.

Ralf

Hi!

"It sounds simple.'

Yes, it is. At least for me. I can't explain how, why and so on. But when I wake up I know if it was a LD or a NLD. I've never had any problems knowing if my dream was a lucid one or a non lucid one.

"But every point of view is subject to discussion.' Yes, and that's excellent. I just told you my view"

"Somewhere (in your bio?), you said, you are lucid, because you are a sceptic and only believe, in what can be proved.'

Then it's a misunderstanding, probably due to the fact that I'm only 16 years old and have some problems expressing myself in English. What I meant was that because I'm a sceptic and only believe in what can be proved I have had what you maybe can call a "advantage'. Almost all lucid dreams I have had from my first one at 6 years age to a year ago have begun with that something weird and unbelievable have happened, and then I've thought: "That can't be real. This must be a dream.' And so I become lucid. I don't remember if I've told this before here at the forum. Even if I have I tell it again. It don't harm anyone. This was a dream I had when I was 11-12 years old. I was walking in a big field towards a road which cut the field in two halves. When I was like 20-30 metres away a black Saab came driving on the road. Suddenly the car skidded and overturned a few times until it stopped on the middle of the road. I was afraid someone had been hurt and rushed towards the car. In the car I found two young women. The driver was dead and her passenger was badly injured. I knew she wouldn't make it. I looked around to see if there was a house nearby so I could call for help. But then I begun wondering over the look of the car. It was just a wreck left. It was totally demolished. It looked as the car had ran straight into a wall in 100km/h. It seemed a little weird. Because I had seen it myself. The car hadn't been speeding that fast. And it had skidded and overturned, not made a head on collision. So how could the car be so squeeze together? The more I thought about it the weirder it seemed to be. And then I understood: "This can't be real. It must be a dream.' I became lucid. Do you understand what I mean? A person who don't look upon things with the kind of critical view and scepticism I do could probably not have cared less about the look of the car. I on the other hand, I who don't believe in things unless there are proofs or logical explanations found it a little weird.

But it's not the reason to why I'm lucid, not at all. I just believe it have facilitated.

"Do you believe in everything, that is "proved", e.g. ESP?' I'm not sure what ESP really is. But as far as I know I would call it rubbish. Once again, I hope I don't offend anyone. This is just my view and of course I respect people thinking otherwise.

And I doubt it's any "real" proofs of ESP. If there is I would like to see them"

I believe in what I find logical and realistic. I believe in science. But still, I know science don't have the answer to everything and I know that what most people consider true today might end up to be wrong in the future. And when I say I believe in what can be proved I mean like the fact that the earth really are a globe. It's just to climb a peek or a radio mast and you see how the horizon bend as if it was a globe. And if you go out in space you have your ultimate proof.

I'm sorry if I've digressed a little from the subject, but I just wanted to make clear how I look upon this world.

"There are many hints, that dreams have effects "outside" the brain. The most simple are physiological reactions like sweating, changes in blood flow, heart frequency, respiration. But there seem to be other things like an effect of dreams on immune system, etc.'

I said: "Everything we do in the dream world we do in our own heads'. But does that exclude physiological reactions? No. What happen in our heads are indeed connected to what happen in our bodies. I haven't told different. But what it does exclude is things like mutual dreaming and such"

"Probably this is the case, if I look at that experiments and this experience, but we have to look at ongoing research."

Yes. You're completely right. But I keep believing the way I do until I see reliable proofs pointing another direction. And until that moment I keep saying "this is so and so'. smiles Maybe I have a more "grown-up" point of view when I'm older, but I doubt it'

I had another lucid dream last night. This time it happened in a strange way. I was outside of Meijer in the side parking lot. Instead of realizing I was dreaming I thought, "This is real." I felt something inside of me that was telling me that the gravity was low. I felt really light. I started jogging really slow and jumping. I jumped about three feet above the ground and floated above the ground going in circles above the pavement in about a 30 foot radius. I then tried to go as high as I could. I went up about 100 feet in the air very slowly and then woke up, only I woke up in another dream. I though I woke up for real but I didn't. I had chills running through me, kind of like if you see something very exciting and you get chills, only it was really strong. The rest of the dream was about wrestling. I was wrestling in high school again. I was showing people moves and getting ready for a tournament. I also ended up outside in my old neighborhood. My car was broke so I decided to run everywhere. Running in dreams is quite cool. It feels like you could just run forever without ever getting tired. I ended up in someone's house but I had no idea who's house I was in. It turned out that the people in the house, I knew. The rest of the dream was quite normal.

Here is my conclusion about this dream. It might help in becoming lucid more often. When you become lucid it is an exciting feeling. Before I went to sleep I watched the pay per view WWF Unforgiven. At the end Kurt Angle won the WWF Title and I had chills run through my body. It was very exciting. I think you can figure the reason for flying out for yourself. The other thing that is unclear to me is the fact that after I woke up in my dream only to be in another dream and that I had chills run through my body, and performed wrestling moves on people, and was running, was I still lucid?

(Note from moderator: The message below was originally posted under another topic.)

Hello Ralf, and everybody else!

This morning I had a LD. The beginning is kind of blurry, and not especial lucid. I only remember I was hijacking different cars, just for fun. I was just about to hijack a bus when I remembered that I should try the "raise lucidity" "thing. And so I did. I said loud and clear: "Raise lucidity to 1000'. The whole dream shook and a bright flash made me see nothing but a clear white light. My vision slowly returned and while white spots disappeared the surroundings became cleared and clearer. Soon my vision was restored and only little "ghosts" (you know when it's dark and you look into a lamp, then there are these little dots left when you look back) were left. I'm not sure, but I think I became a little more lucid. I hijacked the bus and continued the dream. Later on I remembered another experiment. In a dream I had a while ago I looked on the clock and it showed 13:13. And when I woke up a few minutes later and looked on the clock it showed 13:15. I was quite astonished that I had known the time so exactly in the dream. So I wanted to test it again. I went looking for a clock. Soon I found one, it showed 17:16. I wanted to test more of these ordinary-doings (like looking on the clock) to see what was different in the dream world. So I went checking the mailbox. It was filled with letters and stuff. I picked a little handout up. It was an offer to join a Film Club. I could buy six movies for just 19:50 kr. The only thing was that I after that had to buy six more movies to full prise within a month. Just as in reality" I didn't want to stand still any more, risky you know, so I put it back and flew away. Ten seconds later I woke up because my father was knocking on my door. "Time to go to school.' I looked on the clock, 07:30. Argh! Can a LD end any worse?

The dream was pretty long. Something like 3 minutes. In the next LD I have I'll do the "raise lucidity'-thing again. And then I'll rip my heart out. Bwahahaha!!

Hi, Linus.

Please excuse me for answering in this thread, but it is the appropriate one for LDs. It is not that I want to exclude you from the Maui - thread. Everybody is invited to share our thoughts, memories and experiments there. But it is better to stay in the right thread, because all people can find the interesting details easier, then. And your LD has interesting details. It is very worthy, that we share experiences and set goals, tasks for our lucid dreams. And it is good to remember these tasks and perform them. That is what you did. Congratulations!

Quote: I was just about to hijack a bus when I remembered that I should try the ?raise lucidity? ?thing. And so I did. I said loud and clear: ?Raise lucidity to 1000?. The whole dream shook and a bright flash made me see nothing but a clear white light. My vision slowly returned and while white spots disappeared the surroundings became cleared and clearer. Soon my vision was restored and only little ?ghosts? (you know when it?s dark and you look into a lamp, then there are these little dots left when you look back) were left. I?m not sure, but I think I became a little more lucid. End Quote

The "Increase Lucidity * 1000 Now" command has very different outcomes. I will try it too, once I stabilised the next LD. I suspect, that the effect of the command depends upon expectations. One of the best methods IMHO to increase and prolong lucidity is to successfully perform planned tasks. If I run out of tasks, the dream seems more likely to end, or I get caught up in some non lucid script.

Your watch - experiment is very interesting, too. I think, that the dreaming brain is able to incorporate outside - world cues like "two people coming downstairs" or "it is dim light" to estimate the time of day.

That was surely an abrupt ending. But isn't your mood elated by having LD, doing tasks, experiments, flying?

Ralf

My report of WILD training today:

Stephen trägt vor 30092001 #MILD #DSA3 #Spinning #Stephen Stephen lecturing Bedtime: 0:30 am. After 4.45 am (ND wake alarm): Something about cars, I don't remember clearly. I write down three words. I try to get up and do the MILD, but don't succeed until 6.30 am. I get up for five minutes, get back and do the 61 points. Sometime after point 33 I see SLB lecturing. OK. That must be a dream. I'm exited and the only task I remember is: start spinning! But I feel locked into my physical body lying in bed. Next time I will remember to do the more "tender" walking (or swirling) thing. I try to get back into 61 points again, but I can't lie on my back anymore. I have to turn to my right side. I'm drifting off into some nonlucid dreams.

Special thanks to Jason Matthew Bales

I finally got to try Jason's technique for making the dream environment disappear and it worked perfectly! I'd been in a bit of a fallow period, with no lucid dreams I remembered other than the ,'Oh, I'm dreaming, drat, I'm awake." sort since mid-August. My attention had been focused on too many other things.

Anyway, I became lucid last night during a dream I don't recall. I decided to try making things larger since I hadn't done that for a while, noticed a roll of toilet tissue on a shelf and started working on that. I immediately remembered Jason's technique (the last thing I had been setting an intention to do) and started doing that instead. I also remembered him saying the simpler the object the better so I switched my gaze to a small blue glass object, looked a bit like a salt shaker but it was solid. I scanned it in a circular pattern and soon everything else disappeared. Then I looked away from it and it was gone! This was great so I decided to do some meditation practice (I've done this twice before in lucid dreams). I started focusing on my breath and my body rotated 180 degrees so I was upside down (the last time I did this I rotated 225 degrees, it's a fun prelude ). As I did so I heard/felt my mouth open as I started my breathing and I wondered if this was my waking body I was sensing. After focusing on my breath a while the thought arose that I really wanted to remember to post this so I shifted my attention to what I thought might be my waking body and 'woke up'. After writing the first few sentences in my dream journal I realized it might be a false awakening (I still couldn't see anything, nor could I force my eyes to open) and confirmed that when I tried flying from my bed and I sailed off it a short distance.

I just occurred to me as I was typing this that this is an example of maintaining awareness of two bodies, something that I had always failed to do when I consciously attempted it. Now that I have a memory of how it can work I'll have to try again.

Anyway, I start to see some faint lines, which gradually resolved into a sketchy image of the bedroom I grew up in (a common dream image for me and a good example of mental schemas governing what we see in dreams). I grabbed one of the lines that hadn't resolved into anything yet and turned it into a staff, which I thought of as a weapon/defense for anything I might encounter. It felt very solid and real for the rest of the dream although I never visualized it very clearly. I then walked off through the wall before it finished forming. I found myself in another room with a huge set of windows on top of a low wall. I started climbing through a closed window, realized that was unnecessary effort and just walked through the wall. It had more resistance than the window, but when I focussed on the support from the staff I could pass through it easily. I walked out onto a huge wooden deck, under a beautiful starry sky. There was a huge swimming pool a short distance away. As I approached it it filled with people (occasionally I had trouble walking, but if I focussed on the staff I was able to proceed. This seems like it might be a useful technique in general, rather than focussing on overcoming a dream obstacle which gives attention to the obstacle, simply shift attention away from it and proceed). As I got closer I noticed the pool was full of beautiful young women, all waving, applauding and yelling greetings. I directed some ironic humor at my dream (I'm gay, so a poolful of friendly beautiful young women only provoked the thought of 'okay, couldn't this happen to someone who'd appreciate it?') but kept walking forward. When I reached the pool everyone near me had vanished. I thought about trying to bring some handsome young men into the picture but decided that this might cause me to forget the dream so I just jumped in as I decided to try and wake up again so I could record this. This time I really did (confirmed by a reality test).

Oh, and a minor note to Linus Christerson: In English the term for what you call a LAJV is LARP (Live Action Role Playing). I've never done it myself but I have some friends who are involved (I've always done the more traditional FRP gaming).

Hi, Ed

All I can see, if I look at your words - and I hope, I understood them - is: Maybe you were on the way to get lucid, when you were ascending into the sky. Then you may have had what is called a false awakening. But the thing is, that false awakenings lead into dreamscenes, that mostly include lying on your bed etc. But I remember "awakenings" from lucid phases, that were not showing bedroom settings. It was simply a new, now non - lucid dream. Hi arousal can lead to physical awaking. The high emotional arousal may be a recall of the TV event and your mood linked to it. I see no explicitly lucid phase in your report. But you are right, that the onset and culmination of lucidity is often accompanied by intense emotions. On the other side, high emotions may lead to lucidity (not only fear, but also joy or anger). So your dream seems to be pre - lucid. Or do you have another impression about it? I don't want to misinterpret you.

Ralf

P.S. High emotions are a good waking life dreamsign. I often use them as triggers for RCs.

Hello!

Ralf: I'm sorry I posted my LD in the Maui - thread. You are right, it belong better in this thread"

Mmmm" I agree to what you say.

Before I went to bed I had decide to first try "Increase lucidity to 1000', then a higher number, 44 000 and then a couple of millions, to see what happened. However, the effect of saying only 1000 was so overwhelming that I forgot trying a higher number. Maybe I do it later on. But I believe the effect might be too big, and that I will wake up as a result. Since I believe so that's probably what is going to happen if I try it. So I think I don'tt want to take the risk. I settle with 1000 for so long.

"But isn't your mood elated by having LD.'

Of course. I love having LD:s and I always wake up happy after having one. But it was no fun being waked up only to realised it was time to go to school. I hate school. It's just a waste of time, I learn so much more in my spare time compered to school. Sure, it's fun to meet you friend, but still.

Now to something different... It's not a LD, but I write it here anyway...

This Saturday I woke up only remembering one little dream. Although it wasn't schoolday and I could sleep as long as I wanted. And when I woke up next day, not remembering any dreams at all I became a little annoyed. I had slept for eight hours, and I knew I had been dreaming, but I could not remember what. I thought of going up, but then I changed my mind and went back to sleep. I said to myself: "Now you dream! Otherwise!' Hehe" I slept like a log for another three hours. Dreaming almost all the time. And even though I did not get lucid it was extremely funny, and so incredible weird. Because I dreamed I dreamed a lucid dream. Hehe" Maybe I should explain a little more. Well, I dreamed I was in our kitchen, we had guests, I believe someone was having a birthday. I had eaten so much chicken, and so much cake and tart and, well you name it! And I had drunken several bottles of cider. I was full up. I didn't have the energy to move a single step more. So I sat down where I stood and leaned back towards the refrigerator. I closed my eyes. I could here people talking and laughing from the living-room, from the balcony, from downstairs, everywhere. The sounds slowly became more and more distant and I felt how I went to sleep. Soon I found myself in a city. At a large grass lot. There was some kind of festival, or parade or something. Or rather it had been. It was getting dark and the sky was covered with threatening clouds. It was many people out on the streets. And there were trash everywhere. It looked as a "street-after-party'. (Hope you understand what I mean). Some of my friends were there, and many other of the same age as I, but who I didn't know. Many people where laughing and having fun, but someone had been gashed with a knife a couple of blocks away. And you could here the sirens from cops and ambulances. (Argh, why can't I get to the point?!) Anyway, there I was. Suddenly I dreamed I realised it was a dream. I didn't get lucid, not at all. But I dreamed: "Wow, this is a dream'. As I said before, there is a different between saying something, and understanding what you are saying. I became really glad. And begun reflect upon things. Telling my friends around me how they where different from reality. The dream continued. Once again, I wasn't lucid. I wasn't present as you are in a LD. I couldn't control the dream. And even though I dreamed it was a lucid dream, I don't really believe I understood what that meant. But still" For another example, later on when we went into a really cool shop I said to my friends: "To bad I can't visit this shop in the real world.' One of my newly made friends sniffed and said: "What's wrong with our world?' After a while I lost the dream. But I didn't wake up, not to this world. I felt the cold refrigerator behind my back, and I could still here some voices, but not as many as before. I didn't open my eyes. My mom was dishing something. Then she went out on the balcony again. I went back to sleep. This time I and little nine year old chines girl was running over a big filled under the broiling sun. I knew it was a LD. But I didn't understand what it meant, and I wasn't lucid at all. We were hunted by men with dogs and rifles. I don't really remember, but I think we had fled from some kind of plantation where we had been slaves. We ran towards a long goods train. I help the girl up into one of the wagons. Then I jumped in myself. In the wagon there was a couple of other fugitives, some of them in the classic black/white striped prisoner dress. I nodded and sat down. Nobody said anything. It was hot. I looked out the open wagon door on the landscape passing by, thinking "oh, another of does LD:s'. Then the dream ended. I didn't wake up. I guess I went back to a short period of non REM sleep. Soon I continued dreaming, but more ordinary dreams.

It was first when I woke up for real, I understood I had just been dreaming it all.

Well, later on I dreamed I was a part of the president of America's security team. We was on a large boat where there was a big book-fair (Don't know if it's such a good translation of "bokmässa'. But I guess you understand what I mean.). Well I was heading back to our room. I knew exactly where it was, but I turned out to be wrong. I looked on my room key again. I read the number and went looking for the room. But When I found it, it turned out to be wrong, again. And so it continued. At last I read the number and kept repeat over and over again so I wouldn't forget it. The roomnumber was 2161, I think. But when I found the room and it turned out to be wrong, again (!!), I couldn't believe it. I lookedon my roomkey, and now there was another number. But I knew I hadn't read it wrong this last time. Just a minute ago it stood 2161 on it. Not it had changed. The dream continued"

This thing with numbers and such changing is quite characteristic for dreams, right? Even though it was so obvious I didn't realise it was a dream"

Well, when I woke up I recalled at least two hours of dreaming. I was glad I didn't get up three hours earlier, as I first thought. No LD's though. But ordinary dreams are fun too!

Jay, thanks for telling me. LARP, I will remember it. And please, everybody, if you see me making any spelling mistake repeatedly, tell me, so I learn!

Jay

Intriguing LD, I tell ya. I'm impressed.

"I scanned it in a circular pattern and soon everything else disappeared."

Focussing in a "dot - pattern", that is staring a one point, makes everything disappear. Interesting parallel.

"grabbed one of the lines that hadn't resolved into anything yet and turned it into a staff, which I thought of as a weapon/defense for anything I might encounter."

It seems to be a defense against loss of lucidity, maybe because you have something in hand to prove, you are dreaming. You created / morphed it by yourself!

Hi, Linus

I'm right? I must be dreaming!

In the case of your dream: It seems to be a LD (you knew, that you were dreaming, it doesn't matter for this definition, what you make of it or how intense this knowledge seems) nested inside a non lucid dream. That is what is said in "VOLDE" text. Mostly the lucid and nonlucid contexts are concurring, but sometimes they work together fine. Just like in your dream.

" I said to myself: ?Now you dream! Otherwise!? " If I were your dream, I would shiver... hehe...

" It looked as a ?street-after-party?. (Hope you understand what I mean)." Yes.

" Suddenly I dreamed I realised it was a dream. I didn?t get lucid, not at all. But I dreamed: ?Wow, this is a dream?. " "I knew it was a LD. But I didn?t understand what it meant, and I wasn?t lucid at all." What is getting lucid? See above...

"This thing with numbers and such changing is quite characteristic for dreams, right?" Yes. Typical dreamsign.

"And please, everybody, if you see me making any spelling mistake repeatedly, tell me, so I learn!" I, too, sometimes wish LI Forums people would do it. But we agree not to correct each other. It would take a lot of time. I understand you, anyway. (At least I got the impression to do so...) And that is important. I write my mails in "Word" and use the spell - checker. Then cut and paste into forums window. So, grammar mistakes remain and the typical German syntax. But it seems, everybody understands me (excluded may be some really weird posts like the one about the "UFO" - ESP dream's statistical evaluation ;->)

Ralf

Saw my name in my e-mails so I thought I might check in here.

Jay: It's good to hear someone else giving feedback on the method. It is interesting you had an experience in which you maintained an awareness of two bodies at once. I usually lose all sense of body. And that problem of not being able to see... it's because your eyes have stopped moving rapidly (my unproven theory). If you start looking around, imagery will reappear (my personal experience).

If you are able to experiment with this more, you may find some even odder experiences.

I like your idea of shifting awareness away from dream obstacles and then moving on. This may work better than a direct attack on the obstacle.

Ralf: The circular scanning followed by defocusing was developed to systematically stop dreaming while maintaining awareness and remaining asleep. Staring at a dot usually just makes me wake up. Besides, it's odd to have one perfectly formed object completely void of environment or context. It's even odder those times when the final result is awareness without anything to be aware of (no sights, sounds, smells, thoughts, etc.).

It is only theory right now, but I think that sometimes the result is awareness during NREM sleep. I would need an actual laboratory to say for certain, but I think the process stops the eyes from moving and I know the resulting state is nowhere near what I'm experiencing now ("waking" state confirmed by the clock on my desktop).

Whether its a WILD or just new dream imagery, it's alays neat to watch a dream form. Once I observed what looked like the northern lights and I made the comment to myself, "This is the beginning of a dream." I thought how what I was seeing was a lot like the northern lights and then a lamp (light) came forward. By "came forward" I mean that it looked like an area of the abstract shapes and colors formed itself into a lamp and projected it into a three-dimensional object. As I was thinking this was a peculiar thing to see floating all by itself without a table or anything else, a coffee table appeared under it and I saw a cord form and then the electric socket that the lamp was plugged into. Things continued to appear in rapid succession. Each new object was implied by the last and it all started with the thought "light". The way our dreams form around schemas is a fascinating thing to watch. In Jay's dream the imagery started back up again with a bedroom he grew up in. In the dream I just described, the coffee table was very recognizable to me. It was one I haven't seen since I was about ten years old. Check out the scemas you use to make your dreams. There's some interesting stuff in there.

Hello!

"you knew, that you were dreaming"

That's the thing. I didn't really know it. Sure, I said "this is a lucid dream'. But I didn't understand it. I didn't understand the meaning of what I said. I wouldn't classify it as a LD. In what I call lucid dreams I'm present in a different kind of way. Hmm" hard to explain.

Anyway, this morning I had two, hm, three lucid dreams.

In the first one I had been dreaming for almost 20-25 minutes when I become lucid, almost. I and a couple of friends were out on a kind of treasure hunt, which in fact was a part of a competition. We had to find seven magical artefacts which all held seven different riddles. The first group who managed to find all the artefacts and solve the riddles won. And the prize was extraordinary. A whole bunch of valuable things from the 11th century. Gilded hookahs from Ohman, chines porcelain, beautiful sabres from India, Viking-swords from Scandinavia, all kind of priceless treasuries. Everything in perfect condition. Well, I was working with the riddle of the last artefact when the thought "this is a dream, I can take control" bubbled up in my mind. But I was so possessed with the thought of we wining all those incredible things so I just pushed this new thought away without thinking and continued the dream nonlucid. If I had thought about it a second more I had probably also realised that if it were a dream, I couldn't win anything at all. At least no real things"

Two minutes later I woke up. A minute later I went back to sleep, repeating: "Next time I open my eyes I will be dreaming, I will be aware of that I'm dreaming, and I will take control.' I also repeated the experiments I wanted to do and I redreamed the end of my earlier dream a couple of times. Soon I was back in the dream world, nonlucid though. But after 5-6 minutes in the dream I became lucid. Before I begun doing the experiments I had planned to do I messed around a little with the mystical dream characters (a couple of wrestling-stars, a few black elves, gnomes, goblins, orcs and racing car drivers) which had been hunting me the most of the dream. Hehe" very fun" But soon I begun doing the experiments I had been planning to do. Three of them in fact. First, raising lucidity, checking my health and then ripping my heart out. I was flying around 20-30 metres over ground when I did the first one. It was night but the sun was just about to rise over the horizon, so it wasn't that dark. Only a little obscure. I said: "Raise lucidity to 1000'. A dark red light pulsed at the horizon. The dark sky reflected the light and it was quite a sight. Not short after that a light wind swept pass me. I didn't feel more lucid. I said: "Raise lucidity to 2000'. No effect. Then I tried "Raise lucidity 44 000'. No effect. I felt how the dream was going unstable so I dived down towards the ground. But to late, I lost the dream. Luckily, I shortly thereafter found myself in an other dream. I had some of my friends from school was down in the basement of a big library. We were about to see a movie, about what I don't know. I don't remember the beginning of the dream. My memory only stretches 10-20 seconds back from the point where I got lucid. I went up to the main floor and looked around a little bit. Then I remembered my experiments. I flew out through a window. I landed on the street outside and begun walking instead. "Check personal health" I said. I had hoped this would result in some kind of cool information about my body. Which vitamins I didn't have enough of, if I was carrying around any viruses waiting to strike or anything. I didn't expect to get any true information. But I still had hoped the brain would make something up. But nothing happened. So I decided to try the next experiment on my list. Ripping my heart out. As I told you before my last try didn't work. So this time I thought it might be a good idea to train a little first. I put my right arm over my left arm, tried to concentrate, and slowly it sunk trough. "That wasn't so hard', I thought. Instead of doing anymore practise I decided to skip directly to the main target. I pushed my right hand against my chest. It slowly sunk into my body. But only a few centimetres" I had my fingertips in my chest, and I could feel my heart, no ribs this time. But I couldn't get them deep enough to actually grip around my heart. 1,5-2,5 centimetres, that was as deep as I could get my fingers. I woke up"

Why is it so hard to rip your heart out? And don't say anything like: "Maybe because your not supposed to.' Argh" I will succeed, sometime! Thrust me"

My lucidity in the first LD lasted something like a minute and a half. In the second LD only 30-40 seconds" Still fun. I hope I have more LD:s tonight"

Sleep well!

"Intriguing LD, I tell ya. I'm impressed."

Jason is the person to be impressed with. He developed the technique, I just tried it out after over a month of being unable to do so .

"It is interesting you had an experience in which you maintained an awareness of two bodies at once. I usually lose all sense of body. And that problem of not being able to see... it's because your eyes have stopped moving rapidly (my unproven theory). If you start looking around, imagery will reappear (my personal experience)."

Interesting point since I'm not certain I did have a body image immediately after employing the technique. But since I then went on to do a breath focused mindfulness meditation I of course immediately became aware of my breath (a minor thing to wonder about, does my dream breath correspond to my body's breath?). It was also at that time that I became aware of the second body. Then I had a kinesthetic sense of body movement although there was still no visual, touch, scent, etc. I'm not sure why I get a kinesthetic sense of my body rotating every time I start a mindfulness meditation in a dream, but it's sort of fun.

Next time I test your technique I'll have to try just maintaining awareness.

Sigh, so many things to try, so little lucidity...

"I've reflected upon my situation and even said things similar to "this is a dream" whitout really getting lucid. But I was so possessed with the thought of we wining all those incredible things so I just pushed this new thought away without thinking and continued the dream nonlucid. If I had thought about it a second more I had probably also realised that if it were a dream, I couldn't win anything at all. At least no real things"

Personally I define this as a very low level of short term lucidity, as my experience is that that I have gradual gradations in my awareness of whether something is a dream. Sometimes it's just "this is a dream, well maybe it isn't, it isn't", sometimes it's just the ability to choreograph the occurences in a dream, sometimes it's having complete awareness of the dream state, recollection of my waking intentions and ability to control my actions. And I've also had denial play a similar role in losing lucidity (e.g., in dreams where I encounter a dead friend and I think that it must be a dream but then deny it because I want him to be alive).

Hi, lucid friends

Very interesting discussion and experiences.

Jason, that is a nice report of how a dream begins. And interesting, how images, memories, schemas, expectations and thoughts work together in forming a dream. Just thinking it would be nice, if... I will try this as a method to induce a WILD. But somehow I am still somewhat "afraid" in the face of images forming. I wish, I had more calmness in observing hypnagogic imagery.

Jay, of course you have no copyright. But I very enjoy reading the reports of delicate tasks well done.

Linus, the same applies to your latest LDs. The "increase lucidity" command seemed to have a contradictory effect, maybe because you focussed too much. I always enjoy your reports. They are so colourful, so fantastic. The health thing: Hm. When I look back, I had many dreams about my body and health, but most of them seemed to use the body as a symbol for psychic processes. But an interesting experiment. The heart: You're not supposed... OK. Just kidding. Maybe the spell of survival instinct? I've heard of nobody doing an operation with his heart while fully conscious...

Jay "And I've also had denial play a similar role in losing lucidity (e.g., in dreams where I encounter a dead friend and I think that it must be a dream but then deny it because I want him to be alive)." I think, we have to reward ourselves while being lucid more often, more consciously. The reward of illusion is, that we can hang on to emotions (and friends), we don't want to loose. We should have a similar or even higher reward for being lucid, being with less illusions, clearer. My impression is, that it is good for me to seek emotional intense, loving and tender situations (or situations of great adventure) to reward myself. If it were my dream, I would embrace my friend, I would go into this emotion lucid, because that may be more intense, than while being non - lucid.

Win the lucidity grail!

Ralf

I was very close to having a LD yesterday, several times. I dreamed I was watching different movies with a friend, the dream contained many clues pointing towards the fact that it was only a dream, but I didn't get lucid. When I woke up a little I thought: "Linus, you must be more watchful. Don't except any odd things at all. Soon you will be dreaming again. When you do you will know it's a dream and become lucid. And remember, if you watch any movies it's definitely a dream. Don't forget, next time you open your eyes you will be dreaming.'

Soon I was back in the dream world. I sat with my father and brother watching the movie A.I. The dream was full of dream signs. It was like if someone stood two feet away screaming "This is not reality!!!' throughout the whole dream. But I didn't listened...

Yesterday when I was reading here at the forum I saw someone talking about writing down your dreams and then examine them in order to point out a personal dream sign. Sure, I've seen people talking about that here at the forum before. But I haven't really thought about it, because I know it would take me too much time writing down all my dreams. Yesterday though, I begun thinking of it. Did I have any personal dream sings? It took me a few seconds, then I begun laughing. Of course, why hadn't I come to think of that before? It's so obvious. Hey, I'm hunted in more then a third of all my dreams! Is that a dream sign or what? When I went to bed, I said to myself: "Remember, tonight you will dream you're hunted, and when you do you will get lucid.' Next morning I dreamed I was hunted. I don't remember the beginning of the dream, but I know it had gone on for a while. I was in this big warehouse and several human robots hunted me. Most of them looked as Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator. As usually I wasn't afraid or anything. I found it rather fun, maybe a little irritating sometimes, but that's all. After a while I managed to flee out through a little window. Now I was in the backyard of our house. I ran away out on a nearby meadow. When I looked over my shoulder I saw that two of these robots were hunting me. Then I got lucid. I stopped, turned around and smiled. Both of the robots stopped. I saw that one of them was really afraid. And you know what? I don't blame him at all. Well, the thing is that before I went to bed I had decided not to do any experiment if I had a LD. Instead I had decided just to go along with the dream, not trying to interfere, and I hoped this would lead to a very long dream. So I didn't eliminate the two robots. Because doing so would probably require me to focus, and focusing too much could wake me up. So I decided to leave them alone, a stupid decision. I turned around and walked away. But soon I found that one of the robots was just behind my back. I become a little angry. Was he stupid or what? Didn't he understand this was my dream? I tried to get away, but he wouldn't leave me alone. I levitated from the ground to show him who had the power. The little ******* did the same! Now I was rally angry. How could he be that stupid? Didn't he understand this was like saying: "Please slay me, I want to die.' Well, I didn't do it, I had decided to not take that sort of control this time. I tried to run away, but soon he caught me. I tried to get out from his grip without using any violence, but in vain. I knew that soon I would wake up if I didn't get lose and started moving. Too late, I woke up. Hmm" That's the thanks for trying to be nice! Next time I will try to do the same, just go along with the dream, but if some stupid dream character just looks in my direction with the intention of not obeying me, he will be eliminated in a matter of seconds. And in a nasty way too! I remember a few dream characters who have faced that destiny. I will not go in on any details but I can mention corroding acid, nasty implosions and decapitations. smiles Believe me, in the real world I'm not violent at all'

"I think, we have to reward ourselves while being lucid more often, more consciously. The reward of illusion is, that we can hang on to emotions (and friends), we don't want to loose. We should have a similar or even higher reward for being lucid, being with less illusions, clearer. My impression is, that it is good for me to seek emotional intense, loving and tender situations (or situations of great adventure) to reward myself. If it were my dream, I would embrace my friend, I would go into this emotion lucid, because that may be more intense, than while being non - lucid. "

Exacly right! And when I became lucid and did just that in other dreams where I encountered him it was a much more rewarding and healing experience for me. Just being able to say goodbye (which I hadn't been able to do in waking life) made a tremendous difference.

On another topic I tried saying 'increase lucidity 1,000x' in a ld on Thursday night. Unfortunately as I was saying it I remembered someone posting that they woke up immediately after saying it. So of course I woke up.

Earlier in that dream I also tried out the technique of shifting my focus away from the obstacle when I was having some trouble walking through a wall. Worked really well again (though I was a little disappointed I couldn't summon up another staff when I was trying it so I just had to use a random object in the dream environment).

Linus: An alternate way of dealing with persistent dream characters like the robot that was pursuing you is the technique of merging with them. I've found it very valuable and, if nothing else, another technique to add to your repertoire.

Linus

"Yesterday when I was reading here at the forum I saw someone talking about writing down your dreams and then examine them in order to point out a personal dream sign."

And this someone is very proud to be part of the reason for your latest LD. And it is motivating to know, that saying plain truth over and over again makes some sense.

"I stopped, turned around and SMILED. Both of the robots STOPPED. I saw that one of them was really AFRAID. And you know what? I don?t blame him at all. Well, the thing is that before I went to bed I had decided not to do any experiment if I had a LD. Instead I had decided just to go along with the dream, NOT TRYING TO INTERFERE, and I hoped this would lead to a very long dream."

As you see, turning around with a smile may be a great interference and may change a lot. (smiles) Nice, that you try this self - control attitude. Try it again and again. It could change a lot for yourself.

Jay

Fine, that I got it right. I sometimes fear to not find the right words. And your emotional healing is an example of one of the greatest benefits of lucid dreaming.

Jay: Merging with them? Hmm" interesting. I must try it sometime. Maybe I can use it as a training for the "ripping out your heart'-experiment I trying to do?

I was so extremely close of having several lucid dreams this morning. Clues everywhere" And as always I thought "lucid" thoughts without getting lucid. As an example I stole a motorcycle from a very big and threatening rocker, just thinking: "Ehhh" what can he do? Like I care what happen?'

Hi All .....

A newbie here so appoliges in advance for waffling

This one was my second lucid dream (my first being just a eralisation and than a panic to do something to reatin lucidity causing awakening )

I was looking at myself lying in my bed (not my bedroom though) and watched myself stand and being to walk towards me. I told me/myself to open my eyes. my body (the one walking towards me) seemed to struggle but then did so. As soon as it did I was in a quake arena ( I am sure you have all heard of the game) and so realised I was dreaming (again!). I then realised I must do something to become Lucid( again!) I tried to concentrate but people kept shooting me so I climed to the top of a high ladder and forced myself to stare at a light (telling myself that this would make me lucid) This did not work (or so I thought) so I tried to get back down. A lot of my dreams are about me standing on a tall wall or ladder and it give way and I fall. I did not want this to happen in this dream because I remembered I hated the feeling so I amde sure I climbed down the ladder carefully. I got to the bottom and concluded that it was not going to work tonight and that is the last I remember.

Apart from not being able to make for LDs lsat (when I finally get theM0 this seems to be my other major problem. I realise I am dreaming, control my dream to make myself lucid and then fail. I don't see why in my dreams I am striving to become lucid when I must be already to control myself ?

Strange ..........

Dave(UK)

Hehe" It don't really belong to the subject, but I can't restrain myself. You said you was in a Quake arena? Did you take part in the actually game? It's so cool. I mean playing games in your dreams. Comparing the dream world and the most advanced computer games is like compering the distant from my house to my school and the distant from earth to the middle of the galaxy. The computer programmers won't even get close to the experience you have in a dream until they actually can manipulate the brain. And that's something we won't see in a near future...

I've never played a game in a LD. Once I kind of sat up the rules while I where lucid, but when I actually started playing I had lost my lucidity. Though, in my ordinary dreams I've played games several times. Both Diablo 2, GTA 2, Sim City 3000 and others. It's so cool, I mean the feeling are almost indescribable. You stand there in the big hall with your mace. The torch you're holding are the only thing pushing the thick dankness away. If it goes out your doomed. Then there's no way to find your way back through this giant labyrinth. You take a deep breath and feel the cool and damp air filling your lungs. Distant sounds from some kind of forge monotonous echo through the endless tunnels. Occasionally mixed with grim death screams as a change. Suddenly you hear a faint growl, much much closer. You turn around and raise your torch in order to see. Nothing. But your pulse rise and you feel the adrenaline run out in your veins. You take a firmer grip around your mace, just in case. Suddenly you hear something and turn around. What do you see? Two little Fetishes, standing on top of each other. For a couple of seconds you just stand there looking in to their contorted masks while the fear is bubbling up. Suddenly dozens of little Fetishes jump out form the dark and attack you with their huge knives. After a minute or two you stand there painting. The flickering light from your torch fall upon the dead little Fetishes surrounding you. The blood slowly drips from your mace. You stand there for a while, a little absent looking out in the darkness. Then a distant scream wakes you up. You collect yourself and start moving again"

Trying to compare this to the experience you get when you sit in front of your computer are just ridiculous. Almost impossible. I mean, in a dream you're actually IN the game.

Hmm" I love the dream world. It's so fantastic and the possibilities are uncountable. Imagine when you're experienced enough to make your one games. Then you can set up rules and give special tasks to different dream character. Then you don't need to be a professional programmer in order to make your own game and you don't need to spend years to do it, just a few seconds! Besides, the result is so much better!

Well, believe it nor not I was playing game again last night. I had large bat's wings and was flying around this bid manson manu stories high firing lasers. The house even felt dirty and I could almost feel the dust. I was really that Lucid though. I didn;t really have any control. I just remember saying to myself "God I forgot how the good this game was". Whether that suggests I have dreamt the same thing before I cannot remember but as I spend some ridiculous 18 hours a day programming a computer I guess it's gonna filter through. It's a damn good way to think up new gaming environments. I could describe this house to a minute detail. I have tried dream music for my composing but never managed too. Maybe this Lucid training will overcome that.

Boy ! Are they ANY downsides it LDing !!!!?!!!! (apart from waking up feeling like you have had no sleep at all )

Dave

"I don't see why in my dreams I am striving to become lucid when I must be already to control myself ?"

Join the club ;-). I've often found in dreams (as in waking life) varying levels of clarity and understanding to my awareness. It's just a bit more obvious when you're in a dream an struggling to become "more lucid". But hang in there, while the "normal" lucid dreams are great, the ones where you are absolutely aware of the dream state and in control of your actions are amazing!

Dear Oneironauts,

A recent lucid dream and commentary to share:

I am cradling a sleepy baby's nodding head in the palm of my hand. As she drifts into sleep, her face ages as if traveling through Time. In only a few moments, her fresh, little face changes from that of an infant to that of a wrinkled crone. Her expression throughout remains completely serene. As this is happening, I notice that my lucidity is increasing at the same pace as her strange passage. I like to think that, in some way, this child is me...

Commentary: In the dream, I experienced a quiet, gentle unfolding of lucidity. The initial acknowledgement that something strange was happening flowed into a calm awareness while witnessing the child's passage. The serenity of her expression and my increasing awareness that what I was witnessing was truly extraordinary kept the dream from becoming nightmarish in any sense.

Aging is on my mind these days as I watch my mother's health decline and I move past the marker of my father's passing at age 49. Since my 50th birthday, I've been trying to hold in mind the gift of living with more awareness in my daily life. This dream presented an image of graceful passage, and combined with the increasing lucidity, it stirred my heart in a deep and meaningful way.

Serene Dreams to all, Keelin

Hi Keelin

Thank you for sharing that beautiful and profound dream. It is an excellant example of a dream that has a message for all of us. Lately I've been thinking a lot about how quickly time passes, how it goes faster and faster the older you get, and about how little time we have on this earth before we go into the biggest mystery of all. I'm glad there are lucid and loving people such as yourself sharing this thin slice of spacetime with me.

I had a lucid dream where I realized I was dreaming when the (white middle-aged) person I was talking to had changed from an older version of herself, to a young version, and then to a young black woman. But I got overexcited when I realized I was lucid dreaming and dropped to my knees and gave enthusiastic thanks. The woman in the dream was pretty disconcerted by this. I also had the concern that the dream wouldn't last. I think both these things - the concern and the over-emtionallity - caused the dream to end at that point. But it was a good dream - obviously a lot of symbolism. The woman had wanted to kiss me on the mouth and I didn't want her to but let her anyway. A friend suggested that this could have been symbolic of the woman passing something on to me, such as her strength, through the kiss. She suggested that this would be particulaly likely if the woman and I had a bond. Which we do. Does anyone have any thoughts to share on this or similar lucid experiences? kate

I had another lucid dream! At least, it seemed to be one. Unless I was dreaming I was lucid dreaming. If so, I did a great job of it. Anyway, it began with me walking down a wide, not very brightly lit hallway with a lot of other people. The hallway and the people's outfits had a kind of theatrical ornateness. I don't remember what alerted me to the fact that this had to be a dream - it was some oddness you wouldn't see in waking life. But I recall being really pleased that I had caught on so quickly. As I walked along looking at the backs of the people ahead of me, I was thinking about what I'd learned from reading the postings on the post your dream site the day before. I also was recalling how, in my last lucid dream I'd gotten too excited about being lucid and too worried about the dream ending, probably causing it to end. So I tried to stay calm and I thought something about "this dream needs to last." Then I considered saying "multiply lucidity 1000" the way I'd read that some people do. But I decided against it, because I've never done it and I didn't want to mess anything up and so lose the dream. So I decided to experiment instead. I took the hand of a woman who was walking along with another woman and squeezed her hand. It was warm and firm and I could feel the bones just like with a real hand. I was also seeing her hand, and it was vividly just like my hand in waking life - light-skinned with the veins visible and whathaveyou. I was all kinds of thrilled and I laughed with delight and excitement (which I'm never like anymore in waking life.) One of the things that most excites me about lucid dreaming is the chance to explore. Anyway, I had a sense the woman was put off by what I'd done, and it was as if I had used her - just taking her hand for my own uses and not ever connecting personally with her. I continued moving down the hallway with the others and we entered a room which I actually didn't get the details of ' it was as if I didn't want to squander my mental attention before the dream ended. ( Probably I can let go of this scarcity attitude if I find I keep lucid dreaming like this. ) Anyway, the room was much like a shop. There were glass storefront windows and a door facing a street outside. And it was relatively dim, just as the hallway had been. There were a lot of people in here, most or all dressed in eclectic costumes, with no particular theme represented. When I entered the room I had a sense that there was a table there with things for sale that always draw me ' like rings and other small visually-satisfying items, and I knew they would be special and intriguing the way these items are in my dreams. I often have regular non-lucid dreams where I'm at a street fair/junk shop/antique mall sort of setting full of interesting stuff. But again, I wanted to save this lucid dream for the most important things, so I didn't go to the table. Instead I went up to a young black woman in a medieval outfit and thought to change her hair color to blonde. There was a slight delay, and then her hair changed color. Again, I was all kinds of thrilled at how the experiment had worked and was laughing gleefully. There were a couple of Rastafarian-looking guys behind the store counter, and I thought to interact with them and then decided they weren't as promising as some other people might be. They seemed the only people in the room who were really that conscious of me ' they also seemed to be more or less presiding over whatever it was that was going on in the room. The other people seemed not that aware of me, as if I were on another plane, or a ghost, or something. I tried another experiment of changing something that also worked after a slight delay, but I can't recall what it was. I think it had something to do with changing a color. I recall being a little bothered again at the idea that I was using these people by doing these experiments and having no personal interest in them as people. Then, apparently I decided to check out the world outside, because I recall finding myself on the street outside the shop door. I had a woman with me who was unwell, and I was supporting her, making her basically attached to me as a deadweight. The scene outside the store was a monochromatic, dull city scene. I recall thinking about maybe it was a different venue in time, like wartime London, or something, as if I was trying to make it more interesting. I thought about using my control abilities to change the scene to something better, but I seemed to have lost confidence in those abilities and didn't really try. I started to walk up the sidewalk, but realized the woman I was supporting was too much of a burden and that the scene was too uninteresting. So I went back into the store and wanted to lay the woman down to rest on a couch. There was a couch right inside the door ' an old, used, maroon lounging-type couch with no back. It was in front of the store counter. I laid the woman down on the couch and she was asleep ' it seemed she never had really been conscious while with me. But I was a little guilty at leaving her, and I was concerned that the couch seemed kind of crummy, with even what seemed like bird poop on the end where her feet were. So I tried to change the couch, and it worked! Everything was the same except that the fabric changed to a purple color of satin or velvet, and the bird poop at the end became just the light on a pattern in the fabric. In a vague way I became aware that there were several couches and cots in the room. I looked at the guys behind the counter and saw that they had their heads down on the counter, and then I saw that the other people in the room were lying down, as if it had become naptime in the room. I went to sit on a cot in the back of the room, and was facing a woman who was talking. It occurred to me then that it wasn't so much naptime as a kind of meeting, and that this woman was sharing to the group. She was white, and had a beautiful face. Weirdly and kind of unpleasantly, at some point it seemed as if she was just a head, but that aspect is vague. She continued to talk, and I wasn't really paying that much attention to what she was saying (which in waking life is unusual for me.) I wanted to experiment, and I tried to make her change to a man. Then I thought, make him have a beard, because sometimes faces shift and you can't tell that well, and with a beard I'd be sure it was a man's face. Instead, as she was talking, her hat kept changing. It kept shifting to really interesting and elaborate headcoverings, including a stained glass one. I was thinking, well, this is neat too, I'm fine with the hats changing. And then she did change to a man's face, and the voice changed too, to a lower, kind of weird voice in that it was kind of dull and soulless. And I became aware that rather than sharing, the voice was telling a sort of mythical epic. The woman/man/whatever said something about a mythical saga type character named Oroo or something. Then an older lady came and knelt on the bed beside me, leaning forward towards the person telling the saga. She said something to the effect that Oroo had never done what the person telling the saga was saying, that she had the story wrong. The person ignored the older lady; seemed not to be aware of her. The dream ended then, as I simply shifted from that scene to being aware of waking. My head felt kind of heavy, as if the dream had taken a lot out of me, and at first it felt as if it hadn't been a lucid dream at all. It felt as if I'd woken from an ordinary dream. But I don't see how my mind could have come up with all that as just a regular dream. I had the dream after waking first thing in the morning and then deciding to go back to sleep if possible. I understand that's one type of situation that can trigger a lucid dream. I guess there's just as much symbolism in lucid dreams as non-lucids. In this dream, in particular the part where I had the other woman dragging me down. The woman was probably a facet of myself. While I was burdened with that facet of myself, the scene had become unpromising and my confidence in my ability to control the scene had pretty much gone. Then when I "laid her to rest" things got better. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kate

This morning I think I had four (??) LD:s (depends on how you count). My memory isn't that clear and parts of the dreams are kind of dim. When I first got lucid I woke up seconds later, but thanks to the "relax"-technique I soon was back in the dream. And please, tell me what's the correct name of the technique. I'm sure I've read it somewhere here but now I can't find it, and it's so silly calling it the "relax"-technique. You know which technique I mean? No? When you wake up from a lucid dream you don't move a centimetre. You don't open your eyes and you ignore all sounds. You don't think of anything, you just relax and feeling the sleep return, soon you will be back in REM-sleep, hopefully in a LD. What's the name of this technique? Well where was I? Yeah, I was telling about my LD. For once I wasn't at my house (where most of my LD's the last month have been taking place) but in a big city. First I flew around a bit. It was hard though. I couldn't really control my flying, and it didn't went as fast as I wanted. I remembered I should try to carry something while flying so I landed on a wall and looked around for a car. But I couldn't see any so I continued flying around, or rather levitating. Later on, after two more wake ups, I was fooling around in a haberdasher's shop. I tried to walk through the concrete wall in the back of the shop but it was as solid as, eh, a concrete wall. Sure, I didn't make such an effort, but I didn't want to stand still for too long or focusing too hard. Instead I took a large Indian ink pen (like 20 centimetres long) and went outside. I made it sink through my arm, slowly, several times, while walking down the sidewalk. It was so cool, so real. Because every time the pen had sunken through the bone of my arm and reached the underside of it, pressing against the sinews going to my fingers, my fingers were drawn up- and backwards. When the pressure was enough to make the pen continue its path through my arm, cutting the sinews off, my fingers fell down totally lifeless. Once I let the pen stay at that position. I tried to move my fingers, but it was impossible. When I shook my hand they just hang there inanimate. Very cool. I was stunned by the realism so I thought that this maybe was the time to... (Can you guess what I'm going to say? Exactly!) ...rip my heart out! You know what, finally I succeeded! Just kidding? I pressed my hand against my chest, it was like, eh, reality. Impossible to penetrate.

I kept on dreaming almost a minute. Then I lost the dream. I was just about to re-enter the dream world again when my father knocked on my door: "Time to go to school." Hmm? Question: Do I like leaving the dream world and all the awaiting adventures just to go to school, where I, by the way, learn nothing? Answer: No, I don't think so, spank you very much!

Hey! I had a LD this morning. It was very short, only 8-10 seconds. What's funny though is the time before I got lucid. I was in an apartment with a couple of my friends. They had had some kind of party earlier in the evening but now they were on their way out to dance waltz downtown. I wasn't too excited over this idea and I rather wanted to stay in the apartment playing computer. But they kept nagging on me to come with them and after a while I changed my mind. It struck me that I could use it as an experiment to se if I was dreaming. Because if I really followed them and danced waltz it must most definitely be a dream. That's something I certainly wouldn't do in reality, without getting large amounts money that is. So I followed them. After a while I was still following them and I caught myself really being prepared to dance waltz. I realised it couldn't be reality and so I became lucid...

Hello! Had a LD this morning, even though I only slept six hours. And I didn't have any intentions of having one, when I went to bed I thought: "Damn, I guess I won't have any lucid dreams tonight. I wish I could sleep longer." My memory are a little faint. I was at a bus stop with a couple of other people. I don't know what we were doing. But someone had stolen a brand-new Mercedes and was speeding around like a madman. I said to a guy who was standing next to me: "Wow, I wish I could do that." Then this thought bubbled up: "Pah! It's just to take control! Remember?" And so I became lucid. I walked away to find a car. While I walked I checked that it really was a dream by doing a reality test. I reached my arm up towards the sky, looked down on the ground and then back on my arms again. It was most definitely a dream, because my arms were not where I had left them. I saw a car in the ditch further ahead. It was an old red Mercedes. Not what I wanted but it had to do. I know that it's not a smart idea walking in the same direction for too long, and it was 10-15 meters to the car. So while I walked I spun around. When I looked on the car again it was a brand-new Porsche. Exactly what I wanted! I jumped in and stepped on the accelerator. The car jumped up from the ditch as a cat. I've never felt such an acceleration. But the thing is that I had forgotten to turn the ignition key. I felt a little stupid. How could I forget such an obvious thing? Well, the car was moving anyway, so why bother? But I woke up...

Now I know what to do next time I'm not satisfied with something in my dream. Instead of just trying to change it with mind force I will look away and the back again...

Oh, Lord, want you buy me a Mercedes Benz, my friends all drive Porsches ...

Had another LD this morning. Pretty long and stable. But I don?t remember everything, some parts of the dream are rather dim and weird. That?s because I had the dream like 5.30 in the morning and when the dream ended I didn?t really wake up. Instead I kept on sleeping until 9 o?clock so when I woke up some parts of the dream couldn?t be recalled. For a change I had some luck. Because just seconds after I had become lucid I made a stupid mistake. Luckily I managed to retain the dream. The most time of the dream I spend on flying and training object penetration. I tried a new flying technique with great success. I have had some problems flying fast. It has been more like levitation. Flying like superman or like the birds (waving you arms) haven?t worked that well. Sure, waving you arms make you climb vertical. Flying fast horizontal though have been harder. Then I came to think of the airplanes. Why not try being an airplane? I mean just reaching your arms out, not waving them. And so I did. Sure, I flew, but how to increase or maintain speed? It was like sailplaning. I tried this technique in two lucid dreams, both times without the success I wanted. This morning I tried paddling with my feet, like when you swim with diving flippers. Was that a smart idea or what? It was the coolest flying I?ve ever done. The speed! I mean wow, it?s incredible! And the control! I was on the same level as swallows. I must try leaving the atmosphere sometime. When flying like that it shouldn?t been any problems.

Yes! Whole next week I have holiday. Then I can sleep? I hope I have many LDs...