Edgar Cayce explanation of the dream..Case explains as we fall asleep or body relaxes and our conscious mind dissolves.The sensory information the conscious mind relies upon to stay awake becomes muted..As the conscious mind dims the subconscious merges to take its place and we become [lost in our thoughts]..Drifting dissolving falling..these words picture something of what happens to the conscious mind as we enter sleep..Out of that dark deep sleep of pure intuitive being our soul awakens..That part of our being that knows itself as an individual and yet is aware of its conection with its creator wakes up and looks upon our lives..It takes stock of what it surveys from the perspective of its superconscious awarnesse..Whether or not our dreams reflect clearly the souls experience depends upon the level of our personal development..Cayce guaranteed that the more we work on ourselves the more we try to contact and cooperate with the soul level of our being by living acording to an ideal the clearer our dreams become.. Cayces description of the role of our soul in dreams explaines why dreams are such a far reaching channel of intelligence and inspiration.. Our soul has to access to the superconscious ..mind where all knowledge is available.. The soul exists in the dimension of eternity where time and space do not exist..Thus it shouldnt suprise us that often in dreams we find residues or foot prints left behind that are clues to another order of reality..In one of his most suprising statements about dreams Cayce said that anything we might wish to know or experiance we can safely obtain through dreams..We can safely experiance what its like after death.We can examine conditions on another planet..We can explore our superconscious mind..We can preview future events or learn our souls intentions and purposes..All this without risks in dreams..Edgar Cayce on dreams..

Hi All..Has anyone ever tryed to aply [subliminal mesages] to learning dream awareness? Could it work? Has it worked for anyone??? Could it work in theory??Thanks..Tom

Hello Tom,

I've tried (pardon the spelling) what they call "Paraliminal" audio, which is basically a combination of stereophonic inductions, both subliminally and normally at the same time, where you hear two different voices and sounds in each ear. This makes it almost impossible to consciously track everything that's going on.

I have found this extremely relaxing. I have nights of remembering nothing but times of vivid and rich, lucid dreams!

Adam

Tom,

I used a computer program that would flash subliminal messages on my screen periodically. It would flash whatever message I wanted overtop of whatever I was doing, and of course it would flash so fast that you only took in the information subconciously. I seem to remember my recall improving somewhat after a slump, but it was never a magic bullet to make me go lucid.

Jason

Thanks Jason and adam..It does seem that anytime you train your memory to observe the dream better the larger the chance for lucididy.. Then comes my next question about [dream recall] without [DR] a lucid dream or any dream cannot exist!! I have talked to people who will claim they have lucid dreams every night but I know they must phycotic or just jokeing to make that big of a claim..Now could it be posable that when we recall our dreams right after we wake from them thay we are unconsciously adding things to the story..things that make it look like a lucid dream... at least to our selves? I say that in the act of [remembering a dream] we may be redreaming the dream at a counscious level and changing the true content of the original dream to fit our desires to have a lucid dream?? I have recalled dreams very early in the morning and had the strange feeling that my dream recall sesson was actualy the dream from bigining to end? I think we should look deeper into the content of our [recalled] dreams to determine their acuracy! Im just saying Its possable to be fooled by dream recall..regards..Tom

Tom,

You're right on the money there, I believe. Memory plays a critical role in dreaming, but as a tool it certainly has a double edge!

It can be very easy to "remember" that a non-lucid dream was lucid, and to compound the error by filling in forgotten gaps with explanations or memories of things that might not have been in the dream at all.

I have a rule of thumb that works for me to help avoid this: since an LD is a conscious event, the memory of it sould be just like any other conscious event (and, as a corollary, since LD's are often outstanding conscious events, they tend to be even more carefully burned into memory). So, if you're struggling upon waking to remember a dream that must have been lucid, but images are fading fast, then it probably wasn't lucid.

That rule works for me, but when I've mentioned it before I met much disagreement, so it might not work for everyone...

Also, I've had quite a few dream recall sessions from which I awoke moments after recording the entire lucid dream! Frustrating, especially because I forgot the dream I recorded (if there ever was one), and potentially very misleading.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter, I'm one who finds that LDs are no more "burned into memory" than any normal dream. I find LD recall is no different from ordinary dream recall, that is, it is just as state dependent. If I move, or start thinking about other things before I have recalled and reviewed the LD, it fades just like any other dream. I may remember that I had a lucid dream, but I won't remember the details.

Stephen notes in EWLD that developing dream recall is important because without good recall, even if we have an LD we may not remember it. We probably do have many LDs that we don't recall, because we never fully awoke or, having awoken, fell right back to sleep.

I believe what gives us the impression of better memory of an LD is that we do tend to awaken immediately after and, being excited about it, commence to rehearse and rerehearse it, thereby creating a strong memory trace.

I have very definitely awoken from lucid dreams and because of its duration, or because I was quickly distracted, forgotten most of it. I don't take that as an indication of its having been a phony LD.

Anyone can do the experiment. Next time you wake from an LD, don't think about or review it. Get right up and brush your teeth, or do something else, and see how long the memory lasts.

I have never had the experience you describe of mistaking a nonlucid dream for an LD upon awakening. I don't see how one could make such a mistake.

Paul

I used to think an lucid dream should be so mindboglingly vivid than when one awakes he should be suprised he is still in bed..But wait! Mabey that kind of dream is an example of how real to life a regular dream can be.. I think the types of dreams we have reflects our difrences as people..Now Every morning I awake with a new dream story or two or three stories..I never used to do this..Now Its like I have atleast two lives to live..Sure I desire to have a lucid dream every night.. But I am fasenated enough with my regular dreams.. And to observe a dream with a lucid counciousness must be a super experiance! Yes just to be an observer of an normal dream and just watch it unfold with a heightened conciousness must be great!! I am also starting to notice things [automaticly]in wakeing reality as being strange and dream like and I find myself doing reality checks more often.. I used to take atleast one or two hour naps during the day and as a result I had better and longer dream recall and dreams were more vivid too!I think I will return to that habit for a while because it payed off..But yes about dream recall I think it should be talked about more on the forum because of its importance to lucid dreaming and dreams of all kinds..regards Tom..

Was wondering why my dream recall was down lately and realized I'd changed the station that wakes me from my clock radio had been changed from classical music to talk radio, which it would immediately catch my attention and out the dream recall would go.

Back to the classics!

Am also working with an idea read lately about "weak suggestion" that is, making a suggestion to oneself (in this case becoming lucid) without too much force behind it, i.e. emotional intensity, expectation. And that somehow the mind tends to respond better in terms of willingness to do a certain task.

Which makes a kind of sense.

If I ask "Please give me a glass of water" simply vs "GET ME A GLASS OF WATER, RIGHT NOW!" one can observe how all kind of objections might arise that would not be stirred up by the simple request. Even if at first the answer was no, if the person persisted gently we might give in, but if the person demanding got even louder, even if we did give him a glass of water once, we might be very hesitant to fulfull further requests.

And this might also apply to as the author of this book was suggesting to how we get ourselves to do certain things. They were talkiing about overcoming procrastination but it may apply to suggestions towards lucidity as well.

Had a lucid dream this morning, after being woken up by an ealy phone call and saying offhandedly to myself as we got back in bed "Let's have a lucid dream". Lucidity came gently and had none of the drama that used to be so present when I'd passionately suggest/command myself to lucidity. This lack of obsessional energy allowed me to be lucid for at least 20 minutes in the dream, have some fun showing some children in the dream that it was a dream by jumping off a chair and not landing as fast as one normally would. This demonstration made the lucidity present more vivid.

And finally there was a confrontation with someone who had harassed me earlier in the dream, using the logic available only while "conscious" I questioned his actions and he stood there completly wordless and stunned.

It felt good not to have to do anything supernatural, the knowledge of being lucid was there but there seemed to be something fun about keeping it a secret from this person and just deal with him from awareness without having to do anything out of the ordinary. Kind of like being.

"A lucid spy in dreamland"

A lucid spy in dreamland looks like a normal person

But they know that it's a dream and power is at hand.

But they do not have to use it They can just observe

Until the moment comes

To Play

Or soar

Perhaps speaking boldly

Embracing is possible too.

There is no limitation here.

Let the boundaries of imagination stretch!

And Wonder widen to the horizon and out to the stars!

Will continue to work with this new idea and report back how it's working.

Regards,

Daniel

Paul:

But if LD's are waking conscious events, why would our memory treat them like sleeping events (e.g., not worth keeping)?

Since there are plenty of waking conscious events that are quickly dismissed and forgotten, like flushing a toilet or where the hell I left my keys, LD's can certainly be forgotten; I can't argue with that. I guess I just don't care about the ones that weren't worth keeping in the first place.

And yes, I've done your experiment many times -- not purposely but because I'm pathologically disinclined to concentrate on anything -- and found that I retained the memory of most LD's easily and long after the "morning routine." Years and years after, in many cases. I'm not bragging; believe me when I say that I take no pride in my pathetic memory skills.

Since it's been tossed at me several times now (once by him), I am aware that Stephen made that statement. But keep in mind even the great man himself is allowed to err occasionally. ;)

These apparently radical or just annoying ideas of mine -- both how LD's are retained in memory, and the possibility that an obliging dreaming mind might fake the occasional LD -- seem like excellent topics to raise with Stephen at Kalani next month, to see what he might say now.

That's all I'll say about them here, though: I've attempted this discussion in the past, and have met with enough resistance each time to understand that I'm definitely fishing in the wrong stream. Or I'm just wrong, period.

Tom:

See what I mean? My rule of thumb clearly doesn't work for everyone! Thanks for keeping up the discussion of memory, though -- It is the most often overlooked cornerstone of LD'ing.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter, I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else couldn't have a different quality of dream recall where LDs are concerned, only that I don't. I know that when I do remember them it's because I rehearse them upon awakening. I was raising the possibility that you and others might do the same. Also, on the basis of what I've read of the physiology of dreams I see no inherent reason why LDs should be easier to remember than nonLDs. LDs do activate different brain regions, however, which could be a basis for better memory.

In thinking about why I may be different than you in this regard, I realize that I am much less excited about having lucid dreams than I used to be. It's no big deal anymore, although not because I have a lot of them. I don't particularly care about remembering all the details of any particular LD, mainly because I'm comfortable with the knowledge that I can and will have more in the future (That probably sounds wasteful and cocky, but it's more about being laid back about the whole thing.) And too, these days my waking life has become much more interesting. So maybe I'm overall less motivated to remember them.

Also, cool as they are, they are, after all, just dreams, just another set of illusory forms, not really any closer to ultimate reality than waking life. What's the good, spiritually speaking, of replacing clinging to one set of illusions with clinging to another? Like all worldly things, they are to be enjoyed briefly, then let go.

Paul

Hey Paul,

I like how you put that... Sounds to me a bit likes the matrix and that scene when he eats the steak (knowing it isn't real).

For me, I like to discover for my self experientially, the illusory nature of reality while awake and while asleep, which is very different to realising this intellectually, of course.

I think that LDs allow an opportunity to get pulled deeper into illusion and desire, just as the many traps in waking life, too. But having conscious awareness, I believe, puts personal choice back into the soup, away from robothood (hopefully).

According to some theories in certain Tibetan Buddhist teachings, karma is created during the dream state as well as while awake. They believe that the intention behind an action, physical or imagined, can create personal karma in ones future.

I don't know if this is "true" or not. But such as knowing what happens when one dies physically, I sure want to find out in advance!

Perhaps LDs can be another vehicle for discovery of such possibilities of illusion and reality?

Adam

Yes, Adam and Paul, I'd appreciate your responses to my post on the 'Who is the Dreamer' thread. Cheers - Alan T.

Paul:

Just to be annoying:

You said, "I see no inherent reason why LDs should be easier to remember than nonLDs." But then you said, "LDs do activate different brain regions, however, which could be a basis for better memory." Couldn't that activation of different brain regions be an inherent reason?

I've a feeling you'll jump all over that one, but I figured wat the hell, why not point it out anyway!

Peter

Peter, sure it could, and nah, I see no contradiction at all in what I said. One is my own limited view as I see things, the other is just a passing thought that might explain your experience.

Adam, I don't know if I believe in karma, not even sure I understand what it is, not being into Buddhism. However, I will say that I do not find that my LDs move me much toward spiritual awakening. In fact, after them I often feel more separate and isolated from others and from life than before. That may seem strange, but I'm often more grouchy and irritable the day after an LD, even though I have enjoyed the experience, and perhaps this is the result of the unabashed self-indulgence of my LDs. After all that freedom, I resent having to follow the rules anyone might set for me to follow.

Can anyone relate?

We could discuss this in another thread, if you like.

Paul

Hey Paul,

Forgive me, but wouldn't unabashed self-indulgence tend to lead to isolation and resentment in real life, too?

I think it's pretty easy to resent the contrast of our restrictive and judgemental society after experiencing virtually unlimited freedom in any experience.

Warmly,

Adam

Adam, yes, but thankfully the world tends to put a limit on our impulses for self-gratification because of more tangible consequences we might have to endure, like jail, death, etc. The lack of any such effects from lucid dreaming could allow the so inclined to grow progressively more mean, self-centered, and isolated. And if you came to believe you should be entitled to that kind of freedom (license?) in real life, you would be in real trouble!

Since I don't like to feel this way, I have curtailed my own excesses in this regard considerably since I first began having LDs. Also, by exerting less dream power and control in general, I am less likely to resent returning to reality.

Paul

Paul - You Mentioned Can Anyone else Relate to Loosing all that Freedom after experiencing LDs and waking up to the limitations of Physical Reality. I most definitely can. Like I have mentioned before on one of these topics if I had to choose between the two states of consciousness and remain there it would most certainly be the LD State. Even if one has the means to do whatever they want in the physical state, ex. Travel, Buy Whatever, in my opinion it no way compares to the LD State.

After I awaken from a LD I am usually thrilled that I haven't lost my touch, but at the same time bored that I have to deal with mundane, although pleasant beta waking reality.

Pleasant Dreams, Pat

Patricia, that's interesting. I'm sure that you aren't that bored with mundane life, as compared to lucid dreaming. Certainly, though, a low level of relative dissatisfaction could be a positive motivator to make one's waking life more interesting, although that's not always easy to achieve.

I find much of ordinary life repetitious and dull quite often, and it seems so much easier just to try to have more LDs as a substitute for spicing up daily life. This may not be such a good thing, since it adds an addictive or compulsive quality to the whole experience. Then we can become frustrated when we can't meet our expectations, a very negative cycle of emotions that actually defeats our purpose. I have cycled through this pattern myself.

I have also experienced a mild post-LD depression of late. Usually I'm floating on air for a while, then go through a sort of let down as time passes, and become a little short, nothing dramatic or noticeable by others. It's a little like a narcotic withdrawal syndrome, maybe. My thinking follows suit. I obsess. I want more. Usually, though, after a few hours I have gotten over it. This has nothing to do with the content of the LD at all, by the way, which is interesting. It's the state of lucidity itself that I crave. Maybe there's endorphin release or some other biologic effect in lucid dreaming that creates a craving for more of it.

Paul

Paul..This time of the year with summer closing in sometimes causes a biological change in many people.They sometimes become a little depressed and endure a bio chemical change related to the weather change..But It will be short in duration..Im planning a trip but I dont know where to go yet.Because at my age Ive Ive been almost everywhere.But I know in my dreams I can go anywhere and Ill never be bored! And some people might consider going a little easyer on their dream carectors because after all.. they are closer to [them] than they think! Cheers..Tom

Paul, Patricia, et al.,

I can relate to the post LD let down! Currently I'm in a LD dry spell, and it can be depressing. I also crave that state of lucidity and when I haven't had a good lucid dream for a while I start getting bummed out. I did find a good book which helped me out of this post "lucidity high' slump. It's called " After the Ecstacy: The Laundry" by Jack Kornfield. This book is about how people deal with life's reality after various mystical and enlightening types of experiences.

We still have to deal with waking reality, and its normal to feel somewhat bummmed out after coming down from such exhilarating experiences.

The state of wonder, timelessness, really being in the present--is like how young children relate to life when they play and explore. Perhaps there is a neurochemical reason for this ability to easily go into that spontaneous present wonder. Maybe we can return to this "preoperational"( Piaget's theory) mind state, by shifting how we intellectualy process our thoughts?

Eve

Paul, Eve and Others,

Paul-you mentioned that I may not be as bored with mundane waking reality as was stated. Well, I am not bored participating on this Forum using my waking consciousness, I guess I could put it that way.

Basically I am content with the way my current physical life is going, however, having had exposure to other states of consciousness in a way makes me more spoiled. In the LD State for instance I do not have to truck my physical body all over the place and I can still maintain all sensory perception. Eat and not gain weight for instance, fly all over, have conversations etc. There has just got to be an easier knack to creating the LD state more readily. I am working on it without becoming obsessed or compulsive. I am trying a few different things and will post in the Dream Log once successful.

I would not say that there is a LD letdown when they don't happen as frequently, but there is a subtle loss. The LD experience is much more gratifying than any other mainly because I can take such control within the dream. I can't change the dreamscape, but I can do so much within it.

Hope this clarifies.

Pat, Eve, I can't help being reminded of the atmosphere surrounding the first experiments with hallucinogens back when I was young. We thought we had found a way to peace and enlightenment, only we just couldn't "abide in that state", as the Tibetan BOTD suggests. The inevitable return to normal consciousness often left us feeling cheated and frustrated. In the end it did us and society at large more harm than good. I'm speaking now as a one-time hippie.

I have to be cautious about putting too great an expectation on lucid dreaming, which is, of course, infinitely more natural and healthy than taking substances, but is still only a fleeting glimpse of the ultimate, if that. Lucid dreaing shouldn't be the "greatest thing going" in our lives, should it? For me, there's a danger here of falling into the same trap as in earlier years, namely becoming obsessed with what is basicaly a fantasy world of illusion that may or may not have any lasting value. How enlightening or liberating can a fleeting experience, that leaves me annoyed with waking life and craving more, be, I wonder?

I only bring this up because the little letdowns and frustrations we have been discussing have a familiar ring to me. Paul

Hi Paul, I have never participated in the hallucinogenic/recreational drug scene so I don't know about those experiences. Obviously Lucid Dreaming can be attained without harmful substances, so if that is the case and there is a chance of creating the experience thru willpower, diet alterations, mental exercises, I see no adverse effects. I will take the Fantasy World of Illusion with all sensory perception over this ridiculous physical one anyday. Just turn on the news and you see what I mean. Fortunately from a personal perspective I have not had to deal with any major negative setbacks in this beta waking state. All life events for me have been very pleasant and productive for the most part and I haven't really lacked in any way, shape or form. I just prefer the states of consciousness as Lucid Dreaming provides. For example, it is kind of nice to go swimming and know that you are dreaming and not really getting your hair wet. It just a little thing, but preferable.

Not only that when I listed to co-workers, friends etc. and their many disappointments in this life and I already come to the conclusion why bother going that route. You name it divorce, personality conflicts in beta physical relationships etc. Who needs to invest their time and energy in that direction. I think it is great to participate with like minded people in a group setting as us without all the ramifications. Also there are no real ramifications in the LD State. Might be a little off track here, but I think you get my drift.

Back to Dreaming Now, Patricia

Patricia, it's not the experience itself or the various "natural" ways to get there that I wonder about. I see no problem in any of that, either. It's the escapist in me that I have to watch, the belief that through lucid dreaming I can attain some kind of lasting peace and joy that I can't attain in waking life.

Last night I had one of my "tornado" dreams, where several twisters are coming at the city from all directions. What was weird was I wasn't the attackee, but another dream character was. I was busy watching his activities trying to escape harm. At a certain point, however, I realized it was a dream--not MY dream, HIS dream!! I kept shouting, "Hey, dummy, you're dreaming!" He didn't believe me, so I staged a demonstration for him. I made one of HIS dream twisters, that was threatening us, vanish. "See," I said, "you're just dreaming these tornados!"

Then I woke up and had a good laugh about it. I wasn't lucid at all in the dream, but I tried to make one of my dream characters lucid. Pretty goofy, huh?

Paul

Dear Paul,

Twisted to say the least! ;) And just think what might have happened if you'd have stepped into one of those tornados. Could have been a very long dream.....

Let's take a spin when we meet on the island! Keelin

In my most recent dream this morning...after a long dream begining I found my self examining a metal serving tray..Like you find on a kitchen table. I turned it upside down on a street jumped on it with my feet and rode it like a scate board or surf board at a very high rate of speed down streets around corners through yards..I was realy flying..At one point I stoped and picked up the tray and examined it..Wow very little wear!! How can one ask for a better dream sighn?????? NO ONE RIDES A METAL TABLE SERVING TRAY like a magic carpet two inches above the ground ..Why did I not challenge this very abnormal happening and become lucid..How does one WAKE UP?? Any theorys?? Tom..

Hi Tom,

I can relate to your frustration in not recognizing dreamsigns! I've had some of the wierdest stuff happen in dreams and continue and not become Lucid.

But, in other dreams Ive had the "slightest" dreamsigns spur me into doing a reality check and become lucid.

Sometimes I just do reality checks by habit, I guess ... which is kind of cool.

I think this is due to habitually accepting reality while we are awake, rather than performing reality checks sincerely:

I sometimes find myself doing reality checks and then notice a skeptical voice in the background saying "of course you're awake!"

For me, the principle is clear: Like positive thinking, it doesn't work if there's more negative thinking underneath.

Best dreams,

Adam

Paul, Adam, Patricia, et al.,

What made you realize the tornado dream wasn't your dream? Do you sometimes recognize familiar dream characters when you have repetitive themes like tornados?

I finally had a lucid dream this morning! This time what triggered the lucidity was my cat jumping out the window and a bird landing on his back.( My cat appears alot in my dreams) He jumped back in the window and the scene replayed itself. Dreamsigns or abnormal events in dreams don't necessarily wake me up from dreams. I've had several dreams in the past few weeks with specific dreamsigns that I realize later were geared to wake me up, but they did not.

Sometimes I think its all in the neurochemistry, whether or not that analytical part is switched on. I did take some Calea Z about 1:30 am so this probably helped, at least with vividness. I also have been reading a book by Jack Kornfield which has relaxed my "effort driven" tendencies when it comes to lucid dreams and enhanced awareness states. I think what got my attention was the emphasis about healing the heart, feeling ones emotions and just accepting reality as it is in any moment, doing ones best, instead of wanting to run away or avoid things.

In my LD this morning, I decided to look for the "Dreamer who is dreaming me". My intention was to integrate the other dream characters, by not commanding them but acknowledging them and allowing them to meld into me if they wanted, until only "The Father" was left. ( aka the Father in Heaven who is dreaming me) I also was taking note that the number of characters should decrease since I became lucid but they didn't! I asked questions of a few characters and also about where is the Father? A female character told me he was sleeping, and that sometimes he sleeps all day! Oh well. So I set out to do some obstruction clearing mantras, and when I did this, after the second mantra, the characters started becoming quiet, still and stared at me like I was crazy! Then I woke up.

Eve

Eve, cool LD! I plan to go for max lucidity myself ("The dreamer who is dreaming me" sounds kind of like that) when the opportunity next presents itself. It seems that current life situations have cut down on the LD frequency some, but that's OK.

I can't answer your first question, because I really don't know. I was following this other character's actions, trying to find shelter myself from all the storms, when it suddenly occured to me that I was witnessing someone else's dream. Obviously something must have given it away. Why I didn't become lucid myself, ascribing the dream to another instead, I just can't say. It's never happened before that I recall. It seems like an alternate solution to the problem of two conflicting beliefs; one, that I am awake, and two, this can't be real! I didn't find the proper solution but came up with a plausible alternative: watching someone else's dream. I hope this doesn't become a habit!

I don't seem to ever see the same dream characters in any LD or ordinary dream except for family members.

Lurid dreams to all! Paul

Hey Paul, What I Whirl Wind of A Dream!! I think I would enjoy the speed provided I was Lucid. I see what you mean about the escapism and I don't see anything wrong it that. I would compare it to a hobby. As long as whatever means are chosen to attain that state are not of any major health consequence then it should be okay. Each person's system is different each person needs to determine that for themselves and whether or not they need medical advice beforehand. I am very hesitant to use many substances as I would not want to create a situation where I was say partially paralyzed or some permanent physcial handicap developed. That is my concern; which is not understanding the properties these sorts of elements thoroughly enough to make an educated tolerance guess. Regarding your hippee days and substances available then: Were these substances inducing a Lucid Dreaming quality or just hallucinations? I would imagine that hallucinations or other physiological feelings such as heart racing etc. would be boring compared to Lucid Dreaming or OBEs and why bother if you can't get to that state. Can you expand on what you would experience that created so much enlightenment back then. Pat

Paul, What do you mean by Lurid Dreams to All?? Must be a typooooooooo!

Eve, Someone commented that the Calea Z had a difficult taste to be comfortable with. Did you experience this? I can't remember off hand who it was, but I think it was a Tea Form? What is it like and where purchased. Are the effects felt rather quickly?

Patricia

Tom, Your comment: NO ONE RIDES A METAL TABLE SERVING TRAY. The reason it could be so difficult to reason out that this is an abnormality is probably because our current physical realty is becoming more and more nonsensical in nature. With all the craziness in the news etc. I think it becomes harder for the reasoning part of our mind to differentiate what is normal and what is not. Like Eve mentioned I believe that there is some accompaniment (sp?) of a neurological property in the brain allowing for the LD to be recognized along with subconcious intension to realize when we are dreaming whether or not the scenes are determined to be practical in nature.

That is one Theory. Pat

Hi Pat Calea Z tastes horrid to me as a tea. I have had some good success with it though, timing is very important. Adam

Pat and Tom, let's not forget who is creating the bizarreness, whatever it is. Since your mind creates it in the first place as a model of probable reality, why shouldn't you tend to believe that it's real and not see the bizarreness as such?

The monkey brain we inherited evolved for our survival. It creates models of reality, which it then literally stakes its life on. From this perspective, the dreaming brain is in a real pickle. With no sensory input to go on, it creates the best model it can based on memory, attitudes, beliefs, etc. It then has no choice but to believe this is a reliable model of reality, as when awake.

It always amazes me when people express frustration over not recognizing dreamsigns. They're only dreamsigns from the point of view of lucidity. It's not some built-in stupidity of the dreaming mind that causes these things to go unrecognized. What other choice does it have?

To become lucid is a monumental leap over and away from survival instinct, in my opinion. Why would it be easy?

Pat, psychedelic chemical experiences are not just perceptual distortions and hallucinations. They engage the entire psyche, creating alternate realities and worlds, emotional states, as well as perceptions that are pretty hard to deny. In this respect they mimic lucid dreaming in their appearance as other-worldly yet solid. They tend to be less controllable experiences, however, less internally consistent, disturbing thinking patterns and all mental abilities, and can be terrifying, including a sense of loss of self-identity quite often, an ego-death like experience that can be frightening to the uninitiated. Lucid dreaming doesn't do this. We are more in possession of ourselves in LDs, I believe. Comparatively speaking, though, I would have to say that a heavy acid trip blows lucid dreaming out of the water when it comes to altered states. I certainly don't recommend the experience.

Paul

Pat, I also believe that to want to escape from this reality is actually the sane viewpoint, unlike what people say. However, when does a little harmless escapism turn into addiction and obsession? I used to think, if I could enter into a lucid dream and had the power to stay there forever, I would never come back. Those thoughts worry me. It's not the physical harm of chemicals, true, but maybe such an attitude is equally unhealthy pschologically. It has taken me some work to put lucid dreaming into proper perspective, to where I can take it or leave it, where I don't obsess over it all day, and get frustrated over my lucidless nights. Even a hobby, taken to extremes, can be unhealthy.

Paul

Thanks for your answer Adam and your theory Patricia..Im getting very regular dream recall EVERY MORNING usualy one dream I recall only 30 to 45 minutes after I fall asleep at about 11:45.. then I Always recall a vivid dream between 4 and 5 every morning..So I have the advantage of knowing when I will dream..I like the [DILD] method the most but It seems the hardest to atain..The thought of recognising dream sighns in a normal dream seems a more natural and skillfull way to become lucid.. [Wilds] seem to happen by accident? I may have to pull out the nova dreamer and set it very exact and only wear it during my last hour of sleep..Or some kind of audio mesage during dream time..I remember a vivid dream where I fell asleep on a dream bench and woke up in the dream to tell a dream carector that I had just dreamed! I have the feeling sometimes that within the human mind [a mind of Its own] may exist a mind that you have no concious control of? Like a backup system that keeps the mind working flawlessly the way it was intended to function no matter how many times we try to install our [intentions to become lucid] and counciously aware ..[It resists us] like an antibody resists an invading bacteria.. This seems to be a natural system of defence and defiance? But time to time we get our intentions through and acheave lucidity..regards Tom.

Good one Paul! Good one!... [The monkey brains we inherited] That was a good one! He! He! Oh by the way I think there is something more mind blowing than acid..Its [belladonna]alkaloid from the deadly nightshade plant..The halucinations from this alkaloid make acid visions look like childs play plus you have no mind left that you can control while under its influence..Your heart rate slows [WAY DOWN] you need a care taker to prevent you from walking off a roof thinking you can fly..Or in front of a moving car.. Very dangerous stuff.. Even though In my younger days I tryed the stuff years ago..I would never incourage anyone to try the stuff..Back to dreaming..Tom..

Tom, ...and not just a joke! We differ in our DNA from chimpanzees by only 1.4%. We're really just a third species of chimp! Stephen calls us "beach monkeys", since part of our evolution as primates may have been seashore based. He talks about this at Kalani.

Our beach monkey brains will buy into anything that presents itself. To doubt the evidence of our eyes is quite a challenge! We sure don't do it when we're awake. "Seeing is believing" the saying goes; only in lucid dreaming, "seeing is disbelieving" is more to the point.

Paul

Everyone, I find it amazing what our brains are willing to accept as normal in a dream.

Some of my stranger moments:

Looking up in the air and seeing strange words and symbols written across the sky.

Standing on a city street corner, waiting for an airplane to taxi by....!

Folding up a full size airplane into a conveniently sized brief case and carrying it around with me.

Driving a car by remote control while in another car.

The ironic thing is that, like Tom, sometimes I won't give any of these outlandish things a second thought in a dream... but sometimes just the feeling alone that something I can't identify isn't right or is unusual will cause me to become lucid!!??!!!???

Steve

Steve and Tom, it is true for me also that something trivial will often trigger lucidity, while big things won't.

My guess is what matters more than the incongruity itself is the timing (early in the dream or later), emotional content of the dream, presence of distractions (other people), mindset, strength of intention, etc. For me, I am most likely to become lucid when the dream has just begun, when nobody else is around, and when emotional content is minimal. Then my attention is focused more in front of me, and I am more likely to notice even small inconsistencies.

Paul

Tom,

I think your idea of a subconscious mind back up system has merit. It has a tendency --at least in my dreams--to resist lucidity, or dream characters sabotaging me in some way to try to resume that non lucid "staged reality". This tendency may be a subsconcious (monkey brain?) mind survival instinct--efforts to maintain a sense of ego or dream self. Maybe this is why some gentle "Eriksonian" types of hypno-suggestion are more effective in creating pathways which bypass this "programming". The same goes for when you try something different in your experience, say trying Calea Z for the first time and you get a powerful lucid dream. But the next several times trying Calea Z you get no lucid dreams.

It's like once the mind has habituated something, some other back up system tries to "normalize" it so no new changes occurs and the "non lucid system" is maintained.

It seems to me that anything habitual creates an imprint so that later perceptions are "programmed" to simulate the original imprint. If we can try to "perceive" each experience as if it were the first time, the experience would feel more lucid. We also may pick up other perceptions without the programmed "overlay" filling in the gaps. Enhanced awareness on many levels.

Pat,

About the Calea Z. I have two types, an extract of Calea Z and the dry herb that I put into capsules. The extract tastes so awful and bitter that I have to swallow it down with sour lemonade. I had great difficulty in falling asleep when I took the Calea right at bedtime.If I take the capsules, I can swallow it down with water and not taste a thing, and its easier to take when I wake up at night. It works better for me to take it on the first or second awakening around 1:30 am or 3:30.

I also have tried taking a combination of Hyperazine A and DMAE at those wake up times. I did this morning and had another lucid dream. I tried to continue what I did in the LD from yesterday--look for the "Father"( the one who is dreaming me). I ended up calling him on a dreamphone and then realized after I woke up he was standing right next to me watching.......Aghhhh!

Eve

Paul Eve and all..I have found that a routine of changing your aproach to lucid dreaming works the best.. for example the first and second time I tryed a herbal tea that was known to enhance dreams WORKED GREAT! But I soon realized the presence of [placebo efect] when It stoped working..Sometimes Its like we have to trick our own minds by changing our aproach instead of using a regular routine that our minds mind has already documented and can easyily defeat to experiance the level of dreaming we want..If we only could CLEARLY understant the mechanics of how [PLACEBO EFECT] works to open the doors to dreams.. This understanding could be priceless and a great help in lucid dreaming in it self..I have noticed my dreams often border closer to lucidity and some times becomes a lucid dream.. It seems just from doing something I havent done for a long while like use my nova dreamers or trying some herbal tea with promises of dream inhansment..Or taking brain food to boost brain performance? Im not saying that its all placebo efect and some herbs like [calea z] may be for real I havent tryed that herb yet..I would prefer to get lucid without help from substances if posable.. But placebo efect may be a chain of newly aquired beliefes or hopes that takes birth in ones mind..But a clear explanation of how [placebo efect] as one powerfull method works to trick or gain control of our dream centers is needed to aply the leverage we need to open those doors whenever we want.. Does any one out there have a clearer understanding of how [P E] works to efect the mind?? regards..Tom

Tom, why do you feel it's necessary to trick our minds to achieve lucid dreaming? It sounds as if you believe that our minds are trying to defeat us in our desire to become lucid, that it becomes aware of our methods and shuts them down, for some reason, thus we must keep switching tactics.

Obviously on some level we are our mind, so how could we fool it? It knows what we're thinking because it is the thinker. If there were really some deep seated lucidity-preventive mechanism in our psyche, I doubt we could ever be able to attain lucidity, no matter how much we tried. Yet we know that lot's of people have LDs, and that with practice we can have them frequently. I see no devious anti-LD mechanism at work here.

I believe the reason we aren't always lucid is simply that we are conditioned to believe our perceptions are real for the sake of survival, as I've said before. That conditioning may vary from individual to individual, and possibly from day to day in any given individual with changes in emotional state, such as level of anxiety. It can also be unconditioned with practice.

I don't believe that our mind has any such evil intentions, and I doubt that it's productive to think of this as a battle of wits between myself and my mind.

Paul

Paul..I said It was [like] tricking the minds own mind.This makes some sense because to me I have found that the human mind is sometimes stubborn at least in my experiance..Because the human mind is built to operate the way it was intended to..And aplying lucid awareness to dreams may represent a derailing of normal process..And it would be nice If we were in total control of all our brains functions but we are not.. some things in our brains are automatic like monitoring heart rate blood pressure the electrical activity In our brains.. emotions are some what in our control and somewhat not.. And paul its not that our mind is trying to defeat our eforts the way you put it..Its more like the mind is trying to operate the way nature intended it to operate.. so why is it so hard to believe that the mind is a precise system and when we try to force lucidity on it.. it resists.. All of this Is just a theory not proven fact..But lucidity in dreams is very rare for most people and does not happen every night..There is a reason why lucidity is not always there when we want it.. A protective system in our brain or in a computer is put there for a reason and we need to learn more about our minds before we can be shure of the answers.. Back to my question ..does anyone understand the process of [placebo efect] this interests me a lot ..It may answer some questions..cheers Tom

Hi Tom,

In the book "The Psychobiology Of Mind Body Healing", placebo effects on the brain, nervous system and body are explored.

On a simple level, a placebo is like a convincer for the mind of a new idea or belief.

This can work to harm or heal. There are some alleged stories of cancer "cures" from ineffective drugs for example, where the sufferers believed in their effectiveness. People have also had sudden heart attacks when the "death bone" was pointed at them in certain cultures.

Obviously, this doesn't work every time or for every person, but maybe that is because of conflicting beliefs that exist (due to previous experiences), which override the placebo belief.

I do a lot of work with beliefs in hypnosis, and I'm sure that the mind body connection is very powerful.

The effects on dreaming can also work. BUT!... If there's a part of the mind that believes "this is too hard; it doesnt match my experience," new suggestions aren't likely to be effective.

If this is the case, the signal is to work on those limiting beliefs that prevent lucidity.

That's my view.

Cheers

Adam

Tom, my point is that there really is no duality, no "we" on the one hand, trying to push lucidity on our "brain", on the other. "We" are our brains, or at least one of it's many functions. The duality is unavoidable when using language, but it isn't real. My trying to make my brain become lucid is like the proverbial tail trying to wag the dog, if you get my drift.

So, there really aren't two sides engaged in a battle over lucidity. That can only be a convenient metaphor, not the reality of the situation. As you suggest, there is some deeper issue at work that has to be finessed. I believe that the brain must let loose its survival-based belief in the reality of its perception, and risk a little doubt. That's what dreamsign recognition is all about, isn't it? That's asking a lot of the beach monkey, though, and its not easy. All I can do is give it the opportunity to practice letting go when I am awake and functioning.

The placebo effect is simply that beliefs affect outcomes. I don't think anyone knows the mechanism in the brain that makes it work.

My experience has made it unlikely that I could ever succeed in having lucid dreams at will as a result of a simple mechanism such as the placebo effect. I just do not believe that a pill, herb, CD, subliminal, or any of the other stuff being proposed could make that happen. Except, maybe if Stephen gave me a placebo and said his research showed that this would guarantee an LD every time, that might just do it.

Paul

Scalp Stimulation!! You've Just Got To Try This!

Before bedtime loosen hair on head with fingers. Then a little more than gently, pull or tug at roots of hair all over in sections especially at the base near the back of the neck. Must tug enough so as to really move the scalp around. For those without enough hair to pull at, you could massage the scalp, but this is most effective with pulling at the roots. Your dream recollection should be more frequent and easier.

I did this religiously seven nights in a row and it seemed like I recalled each dream during each REM period every night since. It was like I was up all night long, for seven nights, but of course I was still rested. There was no lucidity at least not yet. I may try experimenting with some additonal LD enhancing methods and also pulling at roots upon awakening after say 5 or 6 hours of sleep and combine it with either some caffeine or tea etc. I'll post in dream log once I get it down.

It is amazing because it is working each night I do this, it is not like the brain or body is getting use this treatment and ignoring it as it does when too familiar with a LD Technique.

You may need to grow your hair out a bit if too short as there really is something about pulling at those roots at least for me.

Bottom Line Is: You need to stretch the scalp away from the skull by pulling at the hair roots a few minutes or so before bedtime.

Hope it helps! Patricia