Off the topic of music slightly .......

I thought I'd just let you all know that I just got my book delivered from Amazon : "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" by S. Laberge and H. Rheingold.

I cannot wait to get into it. Tonight will be a night of some heafty reading, then happy dreams. I hope those of you that do not have it are jealous.;-) Get it !! hehe

hit me back, just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan, this is Dan

Dear Adastra! Thanks for the lyrics -- so timely too. I am smiling next to you...

And Ralf, I am giving you one of those slow Maui winks...

And Daniel, Not to influence you or anything, but did you know that some people have had their first lucid dream after reading chapter one in ELWD? ;->

Wishing you happy lucid dreams indeed! Keelin

Dear Ralf, Keelin

I'm glad you like the lyrics! I find it quite a beautiful song. I thought I'd posted something about it to the forum some time ago...but perhaps I dreamt it!

...oh and hey, Keelin, thanks for the state test opportunity by mentioning ELWD ;) I guess that would be EXPLORING THE LUCID WORLD OF DREAMING eh? I guess your glass is (at least) half full!

tangerine trees and marmalade skies, sproing!

Lucid Dreaming in Coma Patients ?

Hi everyone. More of a serious topic. After reading Chapter 1 of EWLD, and getting very comfortable in bed for a good nights sleep, I started to wonder whether people that have no control over their sleep states, specifically Coma patients, have Lucid Dream experiences.

I am no Brain expert and do not know a lot about the brain and it's workings while in a comatised state, but I think it could be possible that these people are experiencing LD's at times.

Something to ponder for a while...... ;-) Don't stress out on the subject - it was just a little thought I had last night.

KEELIN>> Funny you mentioned that. Last night during my sleep, I had a dream that involved a touch of Lucidity ! Nothing to write about, but I feel that I was on the right track.

Unfortunately something that I have not been doing is keeping a Dream Journal. From tonight I start. I'm going to keep a little book next to my bed, where I can jot down notes when I wake up. Funny how you always think " Ahhh, I'll remember that dream" ---- Then you try to remember it a few house later and it's gone poooffff

Cream cake, Daniel

Hi Daniel

Great question! I think you would be very interested in a book called COMA: Key to Awakening by Arnold Mindell. Mindell is the founder of process oriented psychology, a neo-Jungian approach which draws primarily from taoism, shamanism and modern physics and holds that we are dreaming all the time. During the day we don't perceive our dreaming process because we are so distracted by consensus reality (as we don't see the stars in the daytime sky, but know they are still there.) The dreaming process, according to process psychology, may be detected while we are physically awake in such phenomena as slips of the tongue, partial gestures, momentary hallucinations, etc.

In Coma he claims to have discovered that coma patients are actually in a deeply altered state of consciousness in which their life process continues to unfold, or at least tries to; and furthermore that it is possible to communicate with people in such states using non-verbal means. Quoting from the back cover: "Likening the comatose patient to a mythical hero who ventures into the unknown and returns with a divine message, he shows by means of case histories that many patients who have revived (and many cases of metabolic coma do revive) report experiences of prophetic insight, ecstacy and self-knowledge." I found this book fascinating and have become very interested in process psychology.

That book will not directly address your questions about coma patients having lucid dreams, but there are examples that are very suggestive in my opinion. You might also be interested in his much more recent book DREAMING WHILE AWAKE: Techniques for 24-Hour Lucid Dreaming, which talks about how to become lucid during the ubiquitous dreaming process, both in nocturnal dreaming and while physically awake. I should tell you that he changes the meaning of some terms, including "lucid dreaming" - I have definate issues with that, as it seems to me that he may be attempting to co-opt the lucid dreaming movement. He claims to go beyond lucid dreaming as it is commonly understood, and I must say his ideas are quite fascinating and worth thinking a lot about.

One other thing about comas; there is a more recent book by Amy Mindell, Arnold's wife and co-worker, called COMAWORK: A Healing Journey. I haven't read it, but have glanced through it - it gives a lot more practical information on how to communicate with and work with people in comas.

Very interesting!! Thanks for the information.

I probebly will not buy the Coma books though. I have however ordered the 24hour Lucid Dreaming Book. It's due to arrive any day now;-)

I think this is something that I will perhaps look into after I have mastered my dreams. At the moment I am suffering from a VERY VERY bad dry patch, and can barely remember my dreams in the morning. Did have one the other night though after reading my first 20 pages of LaBerges Book

Pure Imagination, Daniel

Hi Keelin!

Sorry to take so long to respond to your question¡KNo, not a group dream, but a rare experience I will never forget¡K.

On Monday, the day most of us left, I felt compelled to get the inside story behind Mana Le¡¦a Gardens¡K

I asked Sandy for a tour. She agreed to walking the spiritual path and describing her take on the whole thing. I let everyone know, and Wilson, Betty and Beatrice (please forgive me if I missed someone) joined me. I guess Sandy got tied up with the changing guest issues. We found ourselves with Kirby (nice staff member fellow). Then, as if preordained, Sandy appeared and both Sandy and Kirby realized that it was James who should lead the tour. Sandy had just made arrangements for him to meet us at the pool, and our spiritual journey took the road less traveled.

James is one of the coolest people I had the pleasure of meeting on my trip. He shared his story, the common ¡§came and never left¡¨ version, and gave us all the most interesting lessons in: "h Plate Tectonics; "h Various effects of erosion on the chronologically formed island chain , et al, in terms of local geography; "h All inclusive non-indigenous flora and fauna; "h Effects of humans there (how hoofed animals nearly destroyed the delicate ecosystem, as well as the influence of plants and animals disastrously introduced in the absence of natural predators; "h And finally (thanks for bearing with me) his own spirituality.

He described how he first discovered the wild goat paths when he was putting the roof on the gazebo at the hill¡¦s crest, and the treacherous terrain in the valley below, which he had only been down in a handful of times in his 10 year tenure as caretaker.

Our brief rest in the gazebo turned into a most interesting discussion. Wilson and James mentioned the ancient Lemarians (inhabitants of Atlantis) who journeyed to the north shore of Maui (right where we were!) for spiritual cleansing. Apparently, as James described it, the majority of the run-off from the volcano goes north, and there is a concentration of this ¡§vibrational energy¡¨ in that region. I was intrigued hoe Wilson and James conversed freely of the details. A measured (?) frequency of 22.4 Hz. Is observed. Not wanting to sound skeptical, I listened intently.

Our tour ended down at the potting shed/vegetable garden with picking and eating ripe papaya, a lesson in banana cultivation, and James mentioning how thrilled he was to have a riding mower.

Thanks, Shasha for the Atlantis link¡K..So, what about this frequency thing? I am, as you all may have figured by now, still searching¡K..

Joe

¡§You have entered the Twilight Zone¡K Beyond this World Strange Things are Known¡K Use the Key, Unlock the Door¡K. See what your Fate might have in Store¡K Come explore your Dream¡¦s Creation¡K Enter this World of Imagination¡K¡¨

Neil Peart of Rush from 2112

Dear Laura

Thank you for your most interesting and delightful postings. I wish, I could answer all your postings, all postings at the forum. But there is so much going on and writing in English still takes more time, than it does in German. I posted my response here, because our discussion may be helpful for all Forum - members.

Quote: (By Laura Stewart (64.161.121.10 - 64.161.121.10) on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 11:38 pm)

The explanation I came up with at the time was that I must have been sensing my real face and shoulders (which I then though of as tense, and now think of as paralysed), and that the change was due to getting that fraction more "into" the dream so that I was sensing my dream face and shoulders End Quote

I've made similar experiences: Look up my posting in the thread: Post Your WILDs By Ralf Penderak (Ralf) (cw03.BS1.srv.t-online.de - 212.185.249.183) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 05:34 pm: Quote: The next thing, I remember is, that I would very like to swim in the void. I simply do swimming movements. My legs feel stiff and tired for a while, but soon they take part in the swimming - experience. Now I'm swimming and hovering in the void, aware of the dream - like quality of this experience. End Quote

Quote What can I do now? I try one more time to hover. I kind of jump. My tiptoes feel very "physical", the rest of the body kind of "astral". Seems like the tiptoes decide to stay on earth and that it is time to wake up. No matter. I'm feeling very well (sauwohl), I open my eyes and find myself in exactly the same position, in which I hovered through the dream: Lying on the belly's right side. End Quote

This experience can be easily interpreted in the Global Workspace Model of brain. (See VOLDE) After relaxation exercise I turned onto my right side. This is the last memory, while brain was still strongly connected to sensory input. After my short "blackout" prior to swimming in the void I felt my legs still "stiff". Maybe there has been some sensory input left, that influenced the dream body model. But by simply dream - swimming the brain dissolved from external input and then only related to the ongoing dream scene and movements. At the end of the dream there seemed to be an influence from sensory input on (dream) body model. The dream body took a position very similar to physical body. After awakening, physical body and body model entered the well known, not recognisable, constructed unity again.

It's because of these kind of experiences, that I very like to work on WILDs. It's the transition, where the strangest and most surprising experiences are waiting.

Keep on

Yours Ralf

A belated thanks Adastra for the Queensrych lyrics, though...A fantastic group there, if your musical vocabulary includes the harder stuff...One of the more cereberal groups since RUSH.

Geof Tate (vocals) has amazing range and control, but Chris DeGarmo (guitar) must be the "aware" one. Suprise...Suprise..Suprise...!

ojlahcs eoj (help me tuna)

"But listen to the colour of your dreams It is not leaving, it is not leaving

So play the game "Existence" to the end Of the beginning, of the beginning"

John Lennon from Tomorrow Never Knows off of Revolver

Hello fellow dreamers

It's been quite a while since I've posted. I've thouroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts though, and if my schedule ever slows down, I hope I can contribute more to the forum

While we're still on the subject of songs about lucid dreams, I have another to add to the list. Heart's song "These Dreams" is a great poetic ode to lucid dreamig. Here's the lyrics:

These Dreams Heart

Spare a little candle Save some light for me Figures up ahead Moving in the trees White skin in linen Perfume on my wrist And the full moon that hangs over These dreams in the mist

Darkness on the edge Shadows where I stand I search for the time On a watch with no hands I want to see you clearly Come closer than this But all I remember Are the dreams in the mist

CHORUS: These dreams go on when I close my eyes Every second of the night I live another life These dreams that sleep when it's cold outside Every moment I'm awake the further I'm away

Is it cloak 'n' dagger Could it be spring or fall I walk without a cut Through a stained glass wall Weaker in my eyesight The candle in my grip And words that have no form Are falling from my lips

CHORUS

There's something out there I can't resist I need to hide away from the pain There's something out there I can't resist

The sweetest song is silence That I've ever heard Funny how your feet In dreams never touch the earth In a wood full of princes Freedom is a kiss But the prince hides his face From dreams in the mist

CHORUS

CHORUS

Sweet lucid drems, --Ben

Thanks, Ben...

I like that one...

Oj'e Oj'alsch

Dreamboat Annie is alive and well....

My pleasure, Joseph. Perhaps I will give Queensryche more of a chance; sometimes I like harder stuff - occassionally nothing but the Dead Kennedys will do. Here's a quote from the Indigo Girl's song "Let It Be Me" - not about dreams at all but this couplet seems to fit the theme:

"If the world is night Shine my life like a light."

I went to see a new Chinese film noir the other day, and saw a preview of a movie coming out called Final Fantasy: Spirits from Within or something like that. The voice over started "The dream is always the same..." and it showed a woman getting into a machine and a double of her body rising out and flying off - technologically mediated OBE, whoo-hoo! It looked like it might be a pretty superficial SF movie, but with a lot of dream stuff going on and awesome computer graphics. The material in the preview was really easy to see as lucid dreaming. The premise seemed to have something to do with a threat to the earth occuring in some sort of VR or dream dimension. I am definately going to see this when it comes out.

That's cool, Adastra!

I thought Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon was pretty darn amazing too....!

It really makes you think about the transcendance thing ............

JJ Sechaloo (are we allowed to this?)

Let us make the stipulation that woo-hoo is not woo-woo.

Hi, fans of lucid music

I´m just downloading "These dreams" and listening to Supertramp´s "Even in the quietest moments". I thought, it was just by chance, that Queensryche's "Silent Lucidity" was the most wanted song at audiogalaxy. But "These dreams" is Hearts most wanted song, too. Seems, that there are a lot of people dreaming of lucid dreaming...

Ralf

Tip of the ice Berge, so to say....

Hey all!

I have a question for all of you lucid parents out there...

Have you or do you intend to teach your children to have lucid dreams? What do you think an appropriate age is? A lucid dreamer friend of mine and I were having a conversation about it last weekend. Although his son is too young right now, my friend says that he would love to teach his son how to lucid dream for fun and to conquer nightmares. Wouldn't that have been great to have parents that taught you how to dream lucidly as a child?

--Ben

Hi Ben,

To answer your question as best I can from my opinion :

Children are never to young to learn about the wonders of Lucid Dreaming and I know this from personal experience. Luckily, I do not have screaming children yet hehe but I do know that as a child I used to have Lucid Dreams and I did enjoy them. You would probebly find (I'm guessing here) that a lot of kids have Lucid Dreams, they just do not start reading scientific books and try to explain them. I think as a kid, I just enjoyed them, and took them as they came. Obviously, getting older I started to wonder about he potential of them.

In my opinion, children would start well at a young age, but because they are children, the extent that you take the teaching would be limited ...... well ......... because kids will always be kids ! ;-)

Heavy Weight Champion of the world, Daniel PS - I will be tonight in Dream Land ;-)

Hi, Ben

I think, the appropriate age maybe five. This is the age, some people speak of, when they refer to their first lucid dreams. I've often asked my son, who is now eight years old, what he dreams. He says, he often knows, that he is dreaming. But he rarely wants to go into details. He always wants to play football or computer, when he is with me. A good starting point for dreaming "education" maybe just to talk about your dreams and your childs dreams.

Keep us posted

Yours Ralf

Hi, Ben:

Good question. This came up in Maui, and I told the group what follows:

It is a very touchy subject with any children other than your own, so beware.

My own children (10, 7, 3) all went through "the learning to ignore process" around 4. That is, ZI saw them go through the evolutionary function of learning to ignore all those strange occurances that happen in dreams (for what, to get a good night's sleep?). Dr. LeBerge's did get into the evolutionary reason why we all dream. His answer to my question "what is the evolutionary reason for Lucid Dreaming" initially was vague. He then revisited this question on the last day, tying it (I think) into a general new level of "awareness" humans are experiencing. But, I still ponder, how does this fit into evolution?

So, while the older two were 3 and 4, I made a conscious effort to discuss their dreams. I know I helped my middle girl through a phobia of snakes and alligators. The older (boy) inherited his mother's shyness, and often doesn't/didn't feel comfortable disclosing these things (don't fret, he is an amazingly well adjusted boy considering), and the little one (girl) is just a bundle of joy (no worries, mate). She is so in touch with herself, the most barely audible music causes her to start gyrating (danceing), and smiling...Having just turned three, her language is just now developing to the point of being able to discuss it. It interests me as far as the different rhythms she can "get into the groove" with at this age...

Sorry to ramble

Joe Schaljo--floating somewhere in the midwest

A little Tab for ya Ralf:___________________

"Refrain: Bm Help, I'm stepping into the A twilight zone, place is a madhouse feels like being cloned, G My beacon's been moved under moon and star, F# Where am I to go now that Bm I've gone too far, yeah!" Twilight Zone by Golden Earring

Thanks for all of your responses!

I just realized that there is a thread in the forum called, Applications of Lucid Dreaming: Lucid Dreaming and Children

--Ben

Hi, Joe

Thanks for the chords. Did you send tabs? I can't see them. I know this song. A great classic, like Radar Love.

Regarding lucid dreaming and evolution: This is how I understood LaBerge's words:

1. From an evolutionary point of view, it is better to forget dreams, because they show a different (not correct) model of the world. "The tiger may be in the wrong place." Individuals, who forget dreams and only relate to ongoing physical sensory input have a better chance to survive, than individuals, who relate to dreaming experience (the dream tiger) in dangerous situations.
2. There are examples, that biological structures change their function. Our tiny tympanic bones developed from an earlier jaw - bone. In a similar way I understand the evolution of lucidity: A new function, we can develop using an old structure.

From this point of view, the evolutionary reason for lucid dreaming is just, that we want to develop it. There are some new thoughts, supported by LaBerge: The function of (normal) dreams seems to be the activation of the brain at the end of sleeping period. Dreaming has to be similar to waking experience, to fulfil this need. Maybe even lucidity in dreams makes sense in the biological sight, because it activates our ability to make conscious (flexible) decisions while awake. But we have to forget, because dreaming perceptions are not correct models of the waking world. The question is: Is there a genetic disposition to forget dreams? It seems, that forgetting dreams is something, we have to learn, is a cultural process. This is what we see, if we observe the development of children. They learn to distinguish between dream pictures, hallucinations (the tiger in the dark cellar) and perceptions related to physical /social reality. This is the critical phase. How do parents react? Do they assess dreams and hallucinations as bad, as not important or as just a different kind of perception? Do they reward their children to speak about these perceptions? I think, most often they say: This is not real, don't be afraid, just forget it. Or: Don't annoy me with this rubbish things. And this is what we do: We forget.

But if we have the habit, to remember our dreams and to speak about them with our children, the situation is different. Children would be rewarded with attention, if they recall their dreams. I think, we have to create a new kind of culture, that includes dreams in general, lucid dreaming in particular. We have the choice, which path to take in (cultural) evolution.

Yours Ralf

There is something wrong. I get ? instead of " or ' . It doesn't accept my "tab" formatting. Device works strange, time for a ->

Reallitty CH3CK

2001-04-29

Get ready with layout and printing! Time for sleeping. Finally it seems becoming reality. Tomorrow my jet takes off in Hamburg. My girls impatient, but I got to get ready with this tag, reading Reallitty CH3CK, want to wear it on the flight and during the camp. OK looks nice. I wonder, who will care about it. And now: Let?s dive into the sleeves. (I don?t know, if you say this in English.)

2001-04-30

6.30 am MEST, on the way to Hamburg. There are lots of new buildings. Odd. Time for Reallitty CH3CK. Airbag doesn?t morph to sharebag. Next time... It?s springtime, trees are blooming. I?m inhaling my flat and green Schleswig Holstein Country. Maybe for the last time? Who knows? Sad silence in our car, good - bye is getting closer. At the airport. Our last embrace. Yeah, she does everything for me, that girl?s a dream. 8.00 am, on the jet. I realise I?m not allowed to smoke. Odd... 8.30 I'm flying! This must be a dream! ?Emergency equipment? doesn't morph. Would be bad, if it did so.

Frankfurt Airport. I'm putting on the Reallitty CH3CK tag. I'm a strange guy... But ultimate strange is this security check, I have to pass. An American safety guard, talking somewhat German, asks me, if I have any technical devices with me. I confess, that I have a Novadreamer (R). I know, that I?m trapped. And there is only one way to get out: Be honest, but cautious. The cross examination begins:

Examiner: What for is it? Defandant:It?s flashing, when I?m dreaming.

E: For what reason? D: I will recognise, that I?m dreaming.

E: How, how do you recognise it?

D: If I practise enough, I recognise the flashes, know, that I?m dreaming and are free to do everything, I want. Flying. Dating friends.

E: Can I meet my girl, who?s thousands of miles away? Really? (He?s looking somewhat puzzled)

D: Not actual.

E: That reminds me of a story about an Indian wise man, who is able to let everything occur in a candles flame.

D: Yes, there is a way of yoga dealing with these kind of dreams.

E: Aah. Yoga.

D: But the yogis want more. They want to recognise everything as being of the substance of dreams. Do you want to take a look at the circuit board? (I take it out of the masks bag and point on different parts, explaining what they are for. He seems to loose interest in the details, but suddenly there is a very sceptical glance in his eyes.)

E: OK. How do you know, that you are not dreaming right know?

D: (Should I explain this? Would he believe me? Or does he think I?m a manic terrorizer? Is this the end of my journey to Maui? Time for a Reallitty CH3CK! I perform and explain a RC with the writing on my passport. The writing doesn?t morph. Seems to be the waking world)

E: I can?t follow you. But I don?t have to believe in this.

D: It?s enough, if I believe.

I?m through. I?ve passed this security check. And I?m proud, that I did my RC in a somewhat tense situation.

To be continued.

I must say that my Lucid Dreaming experience this morning was something I will remember all my life. I woke up after 6 hours of sleep and skipped school because of a bombthreat, read something on lucid dreaming, did a few reality checks, and went back to bed.

The Dream...

I'm sitting in my living room doing something, and I decide to take a look outside, how the weather is. I go to my porch, and open the window seeing a beautiful building at the left of my street, at the end of it. Very strange but beautiful. I think how odd that is, and I do a reality check.

I realize that the numbers change on the watch as I look back at them and I try to change them myself;SUCCESSFUL! I gain 100% Lucidity! So Excited and Happy! The dream begins to fade, so I look at the ground and I stabilize it. Then I start spinning and a new dreamscene appears. I'm in a wonderful room with candlelight and four people are sitting at the table.

My dad, my mom, a strange man, and a mysterious Asian woman who I recognize as my 'spiritual guide'. (Note: I'm fully aware what's going on with my life, and that I'm dreaming, and I'm really in bed) I start a really conversation with them and talk about everything, and touch objects, then rub my hands, and after everything I say I laugh because I feel so cool and so free and so real but again, different. I talk to my dad, and he says 'Congratulations' and I ask what he means and then the other bald man says 'welcome to the astral plain'. I again touch some things and talk with them how real everything looks and tell them that I skipped school because of a bombthreat etc but they already know everything about me.

I look outside and people are fighting or something, I don't remember that very well. The kind of old asian woman (spiritual guide) asks me if I want to play around with Telekinesis (Note: Once I was practicing telekinesis with success a few years ago, but then when I started to swear later on I really lost it), and I answer with a smiling YES. Again I rub my hands and can't believe how good this all feels. She tells me a 'be-one-with-the-object' telekinesis technique but I already know it! I try it and I levitate some objects around and everyone is smiling. I ask my the asian woman (spiritual guide) why this technique won't work when I'm awake and she tells me that God locked my power because it is very strong, and if unlocked, can cause great damage and chaos because of my aggression (Note: I can be very aggressive sometimes). I tell her I understand.

I talk with my mom but I can't remember what we talked about except that I told her how I'm happy and she gives me a warm hug. I ask the people if I can go outside but they tell me that outside's a war and that we are safe in here because not everyone can get onto the astral plain or something. But I still want to go outside, and I shake hands with everyone in the room, and say goodbye and I hope we meet another time.

I find an exit and I'm outside and try to fly, but I can't. I turn around and see a man not very far away from me with a sword looks something like a warrior. He hurts my leg and I start bleeding and can't run anymore (Note: Whoever said that you can't feel pain in dreams is a liar) . I tell him to stop but he just shouts: "GET OUT OF OUR DIMENSION". I wake up and get a 10 or 15 seconds sleep paralysis, then really wake up with a great feeling and tell EVERYONE about the dream and write it in my dream journal and think about it the whole day.

Hello, dreamers!

You may want to update your profile to include email notification of new topics, such as Dreaming and Awakening May '01 @ Maui and various new topics in the Research, Theory, and LI experiments section.

Please contact admin@lucidity.com if you have any questions.

Aloha, Oneironauts!

FYI: Information on the upcoming Dreaming and Awakening workshop in Hawaii (August 1-10, 2001) is now available at:

http://www.lucidity.com/DAAK2001

If it's anything like the last workshop, you won't want to miss it! And if you're not sure what the last one was like, check the Forum topic: "Open Conversation" / "Dreaming and Awakening May 01 @ Maui" / "Testimonials".

One way or another, may we all find ourselves lucid dreaming in Paradise.

;-> Keelin

I?m just testing, whether characters are still ?somewhat? confused. (German keyboard mode)

I?m just testing, whether characters are still ?muchwhat? confused. (English keyboard mode)

The previous messages were cut in Word. This one's "directly" entered using German Keybord mode.

Dies ist ein weiterer Versuch. This is another try, using German keyboard mode and the "Netscape" editor, isn't it?

Cut in Netscape, paste into word, cut in word, paste in Forums Window:

Dies ist ein weiterer Versuch. This is another try, using German keyboard mode and the "Netscape" editor, isn't it?

What do I learn from this?

Write your English messages with the Netscape Mail Editor, cut them, paste them into Word. Use the spelling - correction program of word. Cut again and then paste into Forums window. Somewhat simple, isn't it?

Wie Geht, meine Freunden? Was ist los....? Mittwok Mittwok, nur nicht heute oder Morgan, sagen nicht faulen nicht rauchen Ralf... (beam me back up scotty, translator malfunctioning)

Jon Anderson (and Steve Howe?) was also enlightened:

"Sweet dreams can solve the future Sweet dreams provide the past Sweet dreams can solve the future Sweet dreams provide the past"

"High Vibration go on To the sun, oh let my heart dreaming Past a mortal as me Where can I be"

"I believe thatI've received itI believe it" "It's time to face reality Questioning the powers that be Are we too confused to see Wish I knew..........Wish I knew"

http://yesworld.com/gallyr.html

Did I already use the phrase "tip of le ice berge"?

sorry, I lucked out with the obscure galaxy song..but this dude must be super ecclectic..no relevent mp3's found in my superficial search efforts...

Joe

Hi, Mark!

This seems to be the solution for the problem with my Word and Forums display or character handling:

Before Laura?s tip:

?Hello again!? It?s smart quotes, isn?t it?

After Laura's tip:

"Hello again!" It's straight quotes, isn't it?

Laura's tip: but the way I turn off "Smart Quotes" is by clicking on "Tools" menu, then "AutoCorrect", then "AutoFormat as you type", and under "Replace as you type" I un-checkmark the box next to "Straight Quotes with Smart Quotes".

I wonder, whether Forums software knows German umlaute: äöü ÄÖÜ and ß

Hi Guys,

I had an experience a couple of nights ago that I would like to share with you. It was kind of wierd and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience or what might of caused it.

I had just woken up at 3:00 in the morning after having an extremely vivid (not lucid) dream to work on some LD exercises. After about ten minutes I started dozing back off hoping for a Lucid experience when my phone rang. I jumped up and answered it.... wrong number. I was awake at this time (I verified that the phone call had happened with my wife in the morning). My wife fell back asleep and I was laying there concentrating and focusing on my inner self trying to find my center of being (which I have never been able to find), when I felt this "orgasmic" tingling move all through my body. It was the most pleasureable feeling I have ever had. I don't know where the energy came from. It lasted for about 10 minutes before it slowly went away. I just layed there for another 15 minutes before I could finally go to sleep. The last few nights, I have just layed in bed before going to sleep, trying to get that sensation to happen again. I could feel it like it was a word that is on the tip of you tongue. It is right there but just out of reach.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with you! Hope you enjoyed reading about it.

Jake

Hello all.

Does anyone have MSN Messenger loaded up ? I would enjoy talking to some of you in real time!

english_dreamer@hotmail.com is mine.

See you there if you would like to have a chat about Lucid Dreaming. ;-)

Daniel

Hello dreamersa, I was working today, so I couldn't join Stephen's program, whoelse did and wants to share about this.? I will be at ASD Conference in Santa Cruz and let you know later about his workshop at ASD after the Conference. ( For Joan what about sacrament and Sacramento, although you were in Utah!) Hermine

Hey guys n gals !

Have any of the Web Admins here ever thought about hosting an Online Chat room whereby we can loggon at any time and chat together ? I think it would be lovely - hehe

"Just a thought - use it, don't use it"

;-) Daniel

An Online Chat, It would be a nice possibility to share directly, I once did with Oniros , in France , on dreams,in 1997,1998, afterwards I never was in an open communication on dreams maybe if someone organizes this from the States we can join from Europe too, if time is in accordance with our time schedule?! Hermine

Thanku all for your responses&suggestions, I keep listening to your conversations but can't participate mostly because I'm busy with translating Stephen's LUCID DREAMING. But there is something I have to ask:

I've been thinking about the connection between mutual (lucid) dreaming and some experiments with hypnosis I heard about. In a lecture some years back a professor explained, that before presenting his holographic theory of brain/memory Carl Pribram participated in an experiment with "double hypnosis" and met with remarkable results. In the experiment, a hypntoiser hypnotised a person and then was himself hypnostised by another hypnotiser (whoops). The two hypnostised (the hypnotized hypnotizer and the person whom he have had hypnotized (hahaha)) then appeared (well, their minds did) in some place, well, they have percieved the same things simltaneously, exactly as in the case of a perfect mutual dream. They had repeated the experiment and found out that they kept re-appearing to the same places (one of them being a beach I think). Then they (so said the professor) became scared of what was going on and gave up the experiments. Sounds weird, and that's why I'm telling it to you. I need to be sure this has happened (I want to mention it in my baccalaureate project) but have found no reference to these experiments on the Web so far. I haven't even found a site dedicated exclusively to Primbram's works! Have e-mailed the professor but got no answer yet

So, help if you can, comment if you feel like

Mutual lives Mikolas

I got the reply form that professor! And I have to make a correction, Carl Pribram is not connected to that experiment, well the only connection is that both him and this experiment were mentioned in a book probably called "Holographic Universum" by someone named Talbot. Now I know what to search for! Yepee!

Mikolas

Good stuff a'Migo,

I am a skeptic to the shared dream experience, but must be careful to air my feelings...I really dont want to plant a seed of doubt....

(Apparently, a whole group are convened in Maui and wonder where I am. July 1 , huh Ralf...what time here in Ohio, USA?)

The analogies between Hypgnsis and LD interest me greatly, as do the similarity between LD and Meditation. This would be an interesting experiment, i.e. to compare the pysiological/neurological effects of the two (LD and Hyp) using fMRI (Alan, you here/hear brother?).

Though skeptical by nature, this engineer/scientist really wants to believe it, I REALLY DO!

What Dom shared in Maui with regard to Monroe (Mr. X) really widened my eyes.....

zzzz(dreamscape stilletto fingers) z z z z Joseph, in his tennicolor dream coat

Joe

There's an interesting article in the Washington Post about this:

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/science/A10767-2001Jun16.html

Cheers

Hi Alan, I read the article in the Washington Post, thanks for you recommendation. What about books from Neale Donald Walsh "Conversations with God" or Deepak Chopra "How we know God" as the experience in ourselves and not outside ourselves. As the people in India say "I greet the God in you" The mind may reflect all this but it feels better to agree God is inside and outside of us. Or it is named God, it maybe spirituality, universal, collective energy whatever we feel inspired by or feel the connection to. Hermine

Hi, Hermine.

The universe is so large, and we are so small within it that I think it might be a bit presumptuous to insist upon a nose-to-nose encounter with all of it at once.

Whatever the current savants say can only be a concept. As the German physicist Heisenberg said, "We do not live in the universe but in a description of the universe".

I think we may assume, however, that we must all be an integral part of whatever is going on, so maybe we should foster some kind of contentment with that. I don't mean a passive contentment, of course, I mean a contentment that we really are able to control the direction in which human development will go, recognising that all the predictions and possibilities of this development are already here - in science, and on the news every day.

I don't find 'God' a very useful term these days. I'd rather refer to CEOF: the Creative Exploration of Possibilities.

After all, we're only talking about happenings in a back street of a minor galaxy, huh?

Hail to all who live 24 hours a day!

Thanks for reactions to my posts. I've been so busy with the translation lately, that I had no chance to answer or post any comments. However, I have decided to stay on the bachalor degree for another semester and thus I have much more time now not only for more hard work on my baccalaureate project but on OneiroNautilus, Czech LD Site and other pleasant things as well. And also, I'm sure I'll have more LDs to report when I finally face the examiners' board than the few I have now!

Keelin&Nathen:

Once again, thanks for your effort, though it's clear now that you needn't try so hard to send me the book so quickly. But it has the up side - I have already translated 100 pages! I wouldn't if I knew I had much more time! I don't have any other way to express my gratitude, so:

Nathen, THANK*S

and Keelin, let me dare to kiss an angel:

!kiss!

Alan:

I've read that article. Science is great but sometimes it just can't get that there's more to universe and life than can be described scientifically. You know, the concept of objectivity, measuring everything... it works in many ways, I wouldn't be typing this if there were no science, but still, couldn't there be things that just can't be measured, that exist but can't be observed objectively? Like ESP for example, these things still happen but can't be examined objectively because they are just too irregular... Or this claim that they have found the way brain produces "nirvana" states and thus will one day be able to offer the "buddhist enlightment" to everyone. Interesting. But there's more to meditation and dharma than just to stimulate the brain the right way to get that feeling of "being one with the universe." The buddhist way is to get the right view on things inside and outside, to know how to live your life meaningfully. To learn to respond wisely and with compassion, not angrily. To fight your own inner enemies, of whom ignorance is the strongest. It's a process, a way of life. Enlighment is, if not a metaphor, just something that happens when you know enough and have overcome all obstacles on your way to good life. You just can't be enlightened by accident (or by a a propper external stimulation of your brain). What I think is that developing a "nirvana machine", producing the "high" state of "being one with everything" will only result in developing another useless drug.

I just love this forum! Every day I can't wait for another posts to read. Soon I'll be leaving for a one-week Film Festival and if I have approx. 10 new posts a day in my e-mail now, there will be 70 unread when I come back! Wow!

_________ dreams!

Kim Laso

Mikolas,

I don't know why I'm always acting as an apologist for science, just fate I guess, but here we go again. You seem to like Buddhism, that's okay by me, but the question I always ask people who talk about enlightenment is, "Are you enlightened?" I've never received an affirmative answer - even from those who actually teach enlightenment. I have, however, met lots of people who believe that someone else is enlightened, or that there's a whole group of such people somewhere. It's just that they never can say where they are. No doubt if you tracked them down they would deny being enlightened, too. Another irreverent thought sneaking into my heretical brain is, "Would Tibet have been better off now if its people hadn't had to support so many priests for so long?" I won't even go near the touchy subject of Hindus, Muslims, and life in the third world.

Another thing is your expression, "...when you know enough and have overcome all obstacles on the way to a good life." This sounds too much like a Disney movie script to carry much weight with me - but maybe there really are people in the world whose lives are like Hollywood feelgood movies. If there are, I suspect that it will only be for a while. Nature doesn't seem to like trouble-free lives much.

Then there's the point about science not understanding that some phenomena such as ESP just can't be measured. You imply that such things will never be measured, and I find that view a little defeatist. Lots of people in the past have said that about phenomena which was mysterious then, but which we now use to boil our kettles and cure our diseases. The question I ask is why do people want to protect mysteries? Yeah. Why do people want to protect mysteries?

I could go on to ask you why you're translating Stephen's book when it seeks to scientifically expose an area of human experience hitherto believed to be extremely mystical.....but that would be impertinent.

Have a nice Festival.

Alan,

I think you always act as an apologist for science because you feel like, it's your choice. You feel more comfortable with science than with mystery. As for me, I like both things solved and unsolvable, and think science is great, because it enables technology which can be great if used properly. I love technology, that's why I spend so much time with computers (making music, websites etc.) And I accept science's hegemony in western thinking, that's why I find Stephen's experiments validating LD scientifically so exciting and valuable. But remember, it was not science what discovered LD, it was the mind of a child, which then put all it's efforts to persuade scientific world to accept it. Since I feel comfortable both with science and with buddhism and other "spiritual" ways, I am sort of free of judging things with ingnorance. What I find ridiculous on science's effort to find a physiological explanation for "enlightment" is the very fact that such thing doesn't exist at all, as you have already found out by means of your investigation. It's an open secret of all its seekers, sort of a fuel for their spiritual engines, though imaginary. A koan I'd say. There's no "enlightment right now", it's a process of gaining more and more awareness and of living better life. As for your heretical thought about Tibet's priests, let me add one of my own: "I wonder what would the western world look like without it's religious history?" Would the "scientific movement" became so strong without all the repression from the Church during the centuries? Why did Europe secularize while the Tibetans still love their dalai lama and support their monks? Can't it be because there is a difference between Christianity / Christian Church and Buddhism? And as for Hindus and Muslims and your potential quiestion whether they wouldn't feel better with science and without religion (to put it that simply). I would offer an analogy from my own experience - I spent 3 years in Cuba as a child. Now I live in a post-communist country with growing economy and stuff. If I compare, at the basic level, the nature of the people and their level of contentment, the poor starving people in totalitarian Cuba are much happier, friendlier and open than Czechs are with all their material growth and conveniences. What I mean by this rather unrelated analogy is that the question whether life is better with science or with religion (or philosophy like buddhism) can be only answered by the way it affects you in your thinking and acting towards other people. I guess Hindus are generally more open and frindly to stranges than Wrsterners are, and the same counts for the Muslims (don't forget that a fanatic fraction never represents the whole).

Another thing is your expression, "...when you know enough and have overcome all obstacles on the way to a good life." This sounds too much like a Disney movie script to carry much weight with me - but maybe there really are people in the world whose lives are like Hollywood feelgood movies. If there are, I suspect that it will only be for a while. Nature doesn't seem to like trouble-free lives much.

I admit my expression sounds pathetic and silly. But it's clear you've misanderstood it. What I meant by it is that if you study and practise the buddhist way of thinking or just get some insights from it, you are likely to suffer less when you encouter another trouble that Nature seems to lavish so generously. I'm not a buddhist practicioner at all, do not meditate often etc., but I have learned a lot from buddhism. And it happens so often, that I experience a situation that someone else would describe as "troublesome" but I do not experience it as such. I just laugh and say "isn't that funny?" or "thanks god that it ain't worse!" and go on. That's what I mean by "learning to overcome the obstacles on the way to good(content) life." I would suggest reading Howard C. Cutler's "The Art of Happines" which describes his dialogues with dalai lama, if I only knew you wouldn't be repelled by the obviously Disney-like title. However, I am sure it would be heplful for you to learn more about the buddhist perspective before you judge it. Maybe you'll just find some more support for your opinions there, why not?

And why do people want to protect mysteries? I don't know. Personally, I have no urge to do so, because I know that if there are such mysteries that can't be unraveled, they need no protection. But on the other hand, I am not so enthusiastic about science and it's growth as you are. Science itself has nothing to add to the quality of life, it can be used to cure as well as to kill. That's why I find spirituality so important. Science can't teach you how to live peacefully with others. It seems our brains are good enough to be able to invent but not enough to know how to use our inventions meaningfully. We can't just invent because we are curious. Science should go hand in hand with spirituality or, in other words, an urge to live a meaningful life.

________ dreams!

Mikolas

Howdy all. Just thought I'd post and let you know that I have started a place on the web for those of us who want to share our dream paintings and sketchings.

I haven't been able to scan any from my dream journal yet because my scanner needs a new AC adapter and the manufacturer is taking their own sweet time in mailing it to me.

Ralph's painting is there right now along with a description.

All forms of art are welcome from paintings, crayons, pencil sketching, even quilts and rugs that were inspired from a dream. Heck why not? Any musician's out there? Send in sound files of your dream music.

I would rather have links sent to me to your own paintings on the web rather than having to put them on my server, however if you don't have a web page available I will be happy to upload the picture and descriptive text to my server.

Lucidity to all and to all a good night Barbara :-))

Oh, and why not poetry too? Or short stories that were inspired by dreams? Send them too. But regular dream reports can remain here because I don't have but a certain amount of space :-)

:-))

Found a neat painting about Giuseppe Tartini's dream where the Devil played a violin and upon awakening Tartini tried to recreate it. I tried to find an MP3 sound file to link to as well, however, couldn't find one. You can find the song on an album at amazon.com

Also, the main picture on the main page is by Fuseli and is from the romantic period in art that I once mentioned I loved. The painting is called Incubus, it also is called Nightmare when confused with the more blue toned painting. It is a lady having a nightmare and there is an imp on her.

http://www.geocities.com/blackmarmalade/Dreamscans/main.html

If the link I just typed in does not appear, then click on my name and it will take you to my profile page where the link is listed too. You can then copy paste it into your browser.

:-))

Hi, all you lucids!!

I very enjoyed browsing through your last weeks postings. You had holidays, I was distracted by some hard work. I'm back home again and hope to have the time to comment on some posts, soon. But now I will meet my son and take him to soccer training.

CU

Ralf