Hi Thea,

I don't believe it would be necessary to include the PEST and DreamSpeaker in order for the NovaDreamer to be an effective induction device for you. If you programmed the ND to deliver the cue exclusively as beeps, you'd simply need to do a similar training as with the light cues -- that is practicing in the daytime to do a state check each time you noticed a possible cue incorporation. Any type of rhythmic tapping would become suspect!

To respond to your second question: "If all dreamers were totally blind, what sort of aid would you envision?"

Let's not forget that lucidity = awareness, pure and simple, and while devices like the NovaDreamer can certainly accelerate the learning process, we all have what it takes right here in our own sweet noggins to become fine, accomplished oneironauts!

Knock, knock. Who's aware? Keelin

Good point, Keelin. Awareness is 'ware it's at. That costs no money, and is accessible to all. Oh yes, the ND cue was incorporated as a dream story about being in church singing the "Huron Carol." The rhythmic piano part must have been the ND cue.

A very kind person on this forum sent me their ND. I just received it yesterday. Today, while checking its settings, I discovered I had trouble telling which position was 0. As I cannot see the number in the window, I wonder if the next gen of the ND might have a little notch on the top of the arrow, so when it is alligned with the top, a blind person can feel the alignment and be sure the NovaDreamer is set to 0. At this point, I have a good idea that mine is set to 0, because 4 turns to the right seems to put me into mode 4, deep sleep. At this point, I'm using mode 4, though I'd like to play with the beep cues and use mode 1, shutting off the light cue altogether and playing with the intensity and length of the beep. However, at this point, the ND's information is 99.99 percent visual. I've already tried to play with modes 5 through 8, but was not successful in determining the length and intensity of the beep, even though I went back to mode 1, adjustable sleep, to check it out.

Aargh!

I was putting my NovaDreamer away in a drawer, because we had company coming for a weekend. Something else in the drawer caused it to flip up at an angle, and the drawer closed with the mask's corner in it, shearing off a corner of the plastic board just below the left eye.

The system still seems to work for the most part - it goes through all the different cue types and settings, and it flashes and beeps and clicks as you push the buttons. The problem is, that it's not reading eye movement. The sensor is far away from the damage, but it must have some wire that goes over there that was interrupted.

Is there any place that I could send a Nova Dreamer for repair, or any listings for purchase of used ones? I only use it occasionally, and I can get lucid on my own without it, but I do enjoy it from time to time, and it seems to be very helpful when I've had to take a break from practising for a while.

Hi Michael,

Sorry to hear your NovaDreamer got clipped. I've asked Nathen to see what can be done, so either he or I will be in touch with you soon. I know what you mean about the fun of using it even when you know you can become lucid without the prompting.

Sweet blinkin' dreams for the meanwhile, Keelin

Aloha, Keelan, and all. Thea here from Maui. I was given a Nova Dreamer as a gift by someone on the board, a gift I very much appreciate. I'm still checking it out. But I notice that the sound cues don't even register in my dreams. Nor the tactual cue that I'm wearing it. (I can't see the visual cue, just in case we have some new folks who will wonder why Idon't turn up the light or something.) I don't even hear any rhythmic sounds in my dream that might signal me it's going on. Guess I'm too deep a sleeper. Anyone have this bugaboo? Suggestions most welcome.

Hi Thea

I'm a new NovaDreamer owner too, and although I don't use the audio cue (I'm a medium sleeper) I have noticed that when you turn the dial to # 9 in the morning to find out how many cues you've had per night, it bleeps as it counts out the number of cues. This, at least, may identify that the audio cue is working properly...

I'm assuming that you're using the most sensitive settings? I must point out that I haven't investigated the sound cue much, but when I racked up the light sensitivity to # 8 I went from an average of 10 cues per night to 20 plus! Hopefully, the audio cue may have similar setting adjustments. Wind 'em up to the max is my advice - then ease them down until they're just right.

Dean

As I was going through some old SuperNova logs from 2.5 years ago, where I'd aded text to each night's computer records, I remembered why I'd stopped using the Dream Alarm feature. It can only be set to wake you after the FIRST time it detects REM. That was too soon for me, I needed it to be after a cluster of detections. Probably if I'd decreased the sensitivity it would have helped a bit, but anyway, my suggestion is: allow the Dream Alarm to be set to go off under certain circumstances, such as after 2 or 3 cues in a row.

And an administrative suggestion: I know there's a 1999 version of the SuperNova computer interface manual, because that's what came with my kit when I bought it in 2001. So why not have that version (or a later version if there is one) be what you get when you download from http://128.121.104.103/luciddream-connection/supernovadreamer.html ? Instead, one gets the 1997 version.

P.S. What a COOL warning on the first page!

Hi, Laura

Nice to see you here!

How are you?

Ralf

The only problem I have with NovaDreamer are the tiny numbers on the base of the on the base of the settings dial. I have reasonably good eyesight (I think, maybe I should get my eyes tested) but in anything other than daylight or direct lamplight the numbers are just too small to read. If space could be found for a larger dial and bigger numbers ( or even illuminated numbers for use during the night), I think it would make the NovaDreamer much easier to use.

Perhaps a useful addition to the software for the nova dreamer would be an additional option to use it as a "mind machine" such as the others advertised out there (ie binural beat generator etc. sound/light machine). Would be very little work on the programming side of things but may open the market as standard Mind Machines sell for much the same price already. Just an idea.

I've just reread the thread and noticed Theas issues with REM and the inability for the Nova to cue the blind as it only picks up on REM which like Thea mentioned does not occur in those born blind. Maybe an aditional pulse rate detector could be designed for people without REM or even just as an aditional input so the Nova can calculate more exactly when one has entered dreaming sleep?

Hi Daniel, Thea, and all,

Thanks, Daniel for the reminder to respond to Thea's question -- and for your improvement suggestions.

And Thea, sorry for the long delay! I hope by now, you'll have had some success with your NovaDreamer.

Just one quick comment, then on to a response for Thea. Not all of the eye movements in REM have to do with looking at dream content. Most are just twitching. This is why the NovaDreamer, set to the proper sensitivity level, should be able to cue a blind person as well as a dreamer who is sighted.

So Thea, in addition to experimenting with the sensitivity setting, you'll want to practice during the daytime in order to train your mind to recognize the NovaDreamer's sound cue as a signal in your dreams. I'd suggest listening to the actual cue, or use a timer with a beeping alarm set to go off throughout the day. Do a reality test whenever you hear it, and then mentally rehearse what you'll do the next time you discover you're dreaming. You know the drill. ;)

Also, have you checked the "number of cues delivered" count (by turning the dial to 9) in the morning after you've used the ND? What range of cues have you been receiving? Have you tried increasing the cue intensity/volume? And have you been using the Reality Test Button every time you awaken? If you can give us an update on your experiences, we'll be better able to offer further suggestions.

Best of dreams to all! Keelin

PS: If anyone is interested in further information about REM and dreams of the blind, a quick search on Google should prove worthwhile.

There has been lots of discussion recently about new LD induction devices. I'm inviting the forum members who are interested to build the ideal device here in this thread. From your own experiences, what would the ideal device do? Feel free to let your imagination run where it will, but try to keep it on the general areas of REM detection, type and quantity of cues delivered, external hardware connections, etc.

Here's what I'd like. --More accurate detection. No false signals. --Continuous cues during the REM period. --Cue variation to avoid accomodation. --The ability to play long self-recorded or other recorded messages as a cue when REM is detected. --Meaningful visual cues, such as dreamlike images projected on VR screens that are part of the mask apparatus (I didn't say it couldn't be sci-fi!). --WILD induction capabilities, such as optionally delivering specific cues to prolong consciousness as one falls asleep.

Got any ideas?

Paul

on a different thread somewhere in here I posted that the NovaDreamer should have multi (tri) colored LEDs for cue variation, so you don't get used to red flashing lights. It's not 3 seperate LED's, but one bulb for each eye that can produce 3 different colors, usually red, green and blue, although I think there are other combinations available.

Jason

In late 2004 I built 2 Lucid Dream Induction System (LDIS) masks and they incorporate many of the improvements people have been discussing in this forum. My webpage is working again and I have a link at URL: http://www.interstellar-probes.org/LDIS.htm where I will be showing the masks, the interface software, describing how they work and giving some preliminary test results. Briefly, the LDIS uses 3 closely spaced surface mount LEDs (Red, Green and Blue) to deliver light cues. The operation of the 3 LEDs is fully programmable. Intensity, pulse width, pulse rate, cue duration, LED sequence mode (i.e., Sweep, Sequence, Pulse, Random, None) can all be set. It has a top mounted RT button as opposed to the front mounted one on the ND. The RT button can accept a sequence of up to 7 button presses. Each button press sequence is decoded and performs a specific function in real-time, like lowering the LED intensity by 5%. It can also play WAV files into stereo earplugs as a standalone cue or in harmony with the light cues. Other attachments, like a vibration cue device, a skin temperature and oximetric pulse rate monitor are also possible. In the LDIS REM is detected using an optical IC which is totally different than how the NovaDreamer works (i.e., IR emitter-phototransistor pair). I'm in the process of applying for a patent on this method of tracking REM through Caltech for whom I work. All software was written using National Instruments LabVIEW 6.1 and I will eventually put a run-time copy of the LDIS program on the website so you can play with it. Sorry, but this is not a "How-To" webpage with plans on how to build your own LDIS. Like Jason I'd like inputs from you on features to include in the LDIS prototypes. At some point in the future when the design is more mature and the prototype is more robust I would like to send one to the Lucidity institute for evaluation. Oh, a big thanks to Keelin and Nick Spry for corresponding with me on the LDIS preliminary design.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Paul ..How an extra choice of a vibrator like pagers use.. built into ND mask only much milder. How would a sleeper respond to that? Mabey with the choice of settings [strong].. [medium].. and.. [weak] Sound..Light..and feel..incorperated into new nova dreamer mask? The vibrator would be like an invisible hand a extra method of choice gently reminding you that you may be dreaming! Just an Idea..Tom..

Vibratory cues do work. A few months ago our cat jumped on the bed about 2 am, and was laying on the back of my leg at the knee joint. He was purring and the vibrations incorporated into my dream at which I instantly recognized it in the dream as something rubbing the back of my leg. In the dream I actually stopped talking to the dream character and looked at the back of my left leg to see what it was. It eventually woke me up and he was still purring, but it was quite a powerful cue while it lasted. Vibration transducers can be quite small and liberating one from a cell phone is possible. The issue is where do you place it on the body. The location must be one that is sensitive to vibration or tickling and a place that normally doesn't get tickled. A vibration on the back of the knee joint may get more attention than one on the end of the elbow. But if it is incorporated into a LD mask perhaps it could be clipped onto the ear lobe or press up against the temple. Or, a tiny vibrator could be integrated with a stereo ear plug (it's just 2 more wires) and tickle the inside of the ear. One issue with a vibrator may be how you would set the pitch and amplitude. Like lights and sounds it needs to be adjustable to the users needs. An alternative approach to a dumb vibrator is a "tapping generator.' Years ago someone developed a small pad that was worn on the hand. The pad had inside an array of tiny mechanical solenoids that could be programmed to send patterns of mechanical pulses to the surface of the skin. The device could be used to send text messages to the wearer who was trained to "see" the words. I never saw the device, but it sounded very powerful as described to me by someone who had. Something similar could be developed as a tactile cue device for lucid dreaming purposes.

Regards,

Scot Stride

I like the alternate (or additional) methods of REM detection, and I think multi-color LEDs are really important. Sound would be a great addition; I often notice outside sounds working their way into my dreams, and I think it would definitely improve your chances of recognizing the cues. I would also make sure that you place the RT button in an easily accessible place. I like that about the NovaDreamer because when you're sleepy and not quite entirely alert, its button is still hard to miss being right smack in the middle of your forehead. Will your button have the same prinicple, like it will flash when you press it, and if it doesn't work, you're dreaming?

Jason

Personally, I'd like to see a multimedia REM recorder. I.E., you get a new movie to watch every morning. You put it on, it records your thoughts and perceived sensory experiences, and decodes the whole schmeer into an MP3 file for viewing at your leisure. Talk about science fiction. But you asked, and I answered--LOL. But back to reality, what about a fragrance being sent through the mask at REM detection? Don't know who it was whose cat's purring incorporated, but I'm curious. How did your cat's purr incorporate? Thea

Dear Jason,

This RT button works just like the one on the ND. One button press activates all three lights for 4 seconds. It happens a fraction of a second after the button is pressed. The lights are set to minimum intensity so you can have your eye open and look at them. I also time tag every time the RT button is pressed and have an RT button counter on the display. I use the button a lot and understand how powerful it is as a cue.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Dear Thea,

A REM replay program is possible. Because this LDIS can log the X-Y movements of the eye to an Excel file, with the right simulation software those values can be used to replay the eye movements of the dreamer. This is powerful in that the user can become lucid and carry out some eye movement experiments and then afterward replay their actual eye movements using a computer generated eyeball to see how they did. This could be used for training purposes to help oneironauts attain better control of the dream state.

An olfactory cue delivery system is also possible. I'm sure you're familiar with those "scratch-n-sniff" perfume adds in magazines. Such a cue for an LDID would be similar but there is no scratching involved. Instead a small patch could be placed on the outside of the mask right above the nose. A nichrome wire or two could be embedded in the patch. To activate the aroma on cue, a current pulse is run through the wires slightly heating up the aroma material causing some of it to outgas from the patch which you then inhale. Different aroma patches could be used and the person could choose their own cue fragrance, which doesn't necessarily have to be a perfume. Obviously the person would train themselves to do an RT whenever they smelled the aroma. To make something like this work in practice is possible, but how powerful it is compared to other sensory cues I don't know.

The purring cat... In the dream I was talking to a female coworker outside an elevator. The first time, I noticed something touching the back of my left knee and did nothing. Then it happened again so I turned and looked at the back of my leg to see what it was. Nothing was there, but physically it was so distracting it woke me up. It was totally unexpected. Orion got extra treats that day because he taught me how powerful a vibratory cue can be.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scott..You seem to have knowlege about how the nova dreamer ticks..I called a toll free number and talked to a fellow conected to ,wellness tools.com..He says he has built improved versions of the late [ND] his newest one called [dream maker] is like [ND] but improved in diferant ways he claims..One way he improved it was by replacing the infra red emitter bulb with a larger one to give it a wider scaning range to the eyes..How this larger [IR] LED would improve it I dont know?. But he says the original [IR]LED.. in the nova dreamer in his opinion is too small? What do you think? I would like to chang the [IR] LED..in my mask If it would improve it? But I would have to know what size larger IR bulb would work?? So can you tell me what ID size or number {LARGER} [IR] bulb could replace the original one in the [ND] mask?Thanks..Tom

Dear Tom,

The IR emitter in the ND is matched to a phototransistor detector. From the looks of the ND board the emitter is tiny and the LED lens appears to be 3mm diameter. The fellow you spoke with probably has an ND and reverse engineered it by measuring the IR LED forward voltage and bias resistor value. Measuring the IR LED wavelength can also be done with the right optical gear (i.e., spectroradiometer). IR LED wavelengths vary and I have no idea what wavelength is in the ND. 990nm is very typical. With fresh batteries turn the ND on. With the room lights off look closely at the IR emitter. You won't see the IR light but you may see a faint red glow coming from it. If you see a glow the emitter is probably 890nm or shorter. If you see no glow it is probably 990nm. You should not replace the emitter with one having a different wavelength as that will reduce the detection signal level. IR emitters have different half-angle beam widths depending on the lens used. The fellow could have replaced the IR LED with one that has a narrower beamwidth. This may have helped get more light into the phototransistor and improve sensitivity. Big or small doesn't mean much because the lens shape and emitting geometry determines the half-angle beam widths. He may have used an LED with more radiant intensity. All light emitting devices must be used with eye safety in mind, even IR sources. There are radiation safety standards for LEDs that can't be ignored. I followed them when designing the LDIS because I did not want to blind myself or burn my eyelid with IR. I have no idea what the radiant intensity output of the ND is so I can't comment on how much radiation it outputs. I'm sure the ND designers chose a level (with margin) that was both safe and consumed as little power as possible. I don't recommend fooling with the IR LED in your ND. You could easily use an LED that had too much IR output and damage your cornea. One complaint with the ND is the power consumption and limited battery life. Putting in a brighter IR LED would only make that worse because it would draw more current. As far as I can tell there is nothing you can do to the ND to make it perform better. It's as good as it gets so beware of claims to the contrary.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scot . I see now its not that simple.. Thanks for the advise!Tom..

Dear All,

I've posted images of the LDIS masks at my website: http://www.interstellar-probes.org/LDIS.htm

I'll be adding a lot more information to the webpage in the coming weeks. I'm going to build a third LDIS prototype with an improved lens and better alignment of the LEDs. Paul S. and I have been discussing cue timing and delivery. The LDIS is capable of monitoring left-right and up-down eye motion. I have noticed in some of my data slow left-right drifts of my eye as well as bursts of eye movement. The LDIS has two data channels allowing it to extract motion data in either the +-X or +-Y direction. These channels can be combined mathematically to get an averaged magnitude value, or each channel can be used by itself. If pre-REM eye motion could be determined then it may be possible to deliver the cues at the onset of REM and not after the dream is well on its way. It is best to deliver cues at the start of a dream. Cues should not be delivered when the person is lucid because it might wake them up, as it did to me once with the LDIS (this can be fixed). Pre-REM eye motion may favor left-right or up-down movements. Or, the eyes may wander with periodic micro-sacades. The LDIS can record all of these motions and be programmed to intelligently anticipate the onset of REM. So, if anyone knows of any research papers on how the eyes typically move before the onset of REM I'd like to read it.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Why only flash the cues in one eye?

Dear Jason,

Being able to send light cues to both eyes does have one advantage. If the person is blind or partially blind in one eye the cues can be sent to their good eye. I see no other good reason to flash both eyes at once. Saying "we've always flashed cues into both eyes" is not an answer. Unless there is some left-brain or right-brain difference in how the cue is cognitively processed I see no reason why both eyes are needed. I know the ND flashes both eyes are once or alternates flashes between them. Is there any research data that suggests cuing both eyes gives statistically better results? If so, I'd like to read the study. If anyone reading this has an ND and done a study finding that flashing both eyes produces more LDs then please share your findings. Also, for a battery powered mask flashing more LEDs means more power draw for possibly no added benefit. For matters of economy and simplicity if flashing cues into one eye is just as good as two then stick with one.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scot:

Interesting stuff, and it's truly exciting to see all this work being done on a LD device! A couple of questions:

...Maybe the flashing in two eyes has to do with biocular vision, and making the flash more real in the dream? But then again, maybe a one-eye flash increases "oddity," and decreases the chance of your brain incorporating the flash into the dream scene. hmmm.

...Does pre-REM movement actually exist? I hadn't heard of it (not that THAT means anything).

Peter

Scott, My argument wasn't "we've always done it." Actually, I personally have noticed much better results when I flash both eyes simultaneously than when it's alternating. LED's are pretty cheap, especially if only one is needed for each eye, like a single tri-color LED, it would be what, maybe a couple dollars more? This might sound dumb, but have you ever worn sunglasses with only one lens, or maybe a color filter over one eye only? Your field of vision will have sort of a color ghosting effect, because your brain is processing both a normal image and a colored one at the same time. With colored lights only flashing into one eye during a dream, the effect would probably be the same, and for those who are used to their whole field of vision turning red, it may not work. In other words, the cue may be harder to spot, since it would be more a "background effect" than a prominent feature of the dream. Maybe that's why the alternating style of cues with ND hasn't worked well for me.

Jason

Dreamers,

First, I'm not an expert on REM sleep, that's why I asked if such a phenomena as pre-REM exists. Does REM sleep turn on like a light switch or is there some delay leading up to REM sleep? The WILD technique suggests that the onset of REM can happen quickly. If there is some kind of eye motion that precedes REM, then it is detectable and an eye motion tracking system like the LDIS can possibly use that to an advantage. Can someone help me with this? Jason, I never suggested your argument was "we've always done it that way.' I wrote that because all too often in science standard techniques are used over-and-over and no one knows or remembers why it's done that way. I'm sure if the ND (and Dreamlight) only flashed the cues in one eye from 2 different colored LEDs we'd be saying that was a most effective method. My point is with only a single kind of optical LDID on the market a comparative study cannot be made. And what good are new LDIDs if they are just repackaged versions of previous devices. In his 2004 book Lucid Dreaming (p. 35) LaBerge envisioned ''increasingly effective LDIDs thanks to the rapid growth of computers and microelectronics.' That is happening as we speak and the ND was only the beginning. I understand the Lucidity institute is re-designing the ND and Super ND. I hope it uses vastly improved electronics and software over the Super ND.

Adding different colored LEDs is an improvement over a single color. Studies have been done on how different colored lights affect peoples moods and emotions. Red has shown to be more exciting, blue is more calming. Using red, green and blue LEDs of the right wavelengths covers the spectrum of colors our cone receptors receive. Those 3 wavelengths are approximately 460nm, 550nm and 630nm. The 3 LEDs should have wavelengths that peak near those values. You'll find that tri-colored LEDs use wavelengths that mix to white. The trick is to get the intensities normalized so the eye sees white and not some off-white tint. For an LDID some color mixing can take place, but the LEDs are usually so small and so close to the eyelid that they look like discrete colors. That's good because the LDID can be used to affect the mood of the dreamer. A blue light that gradually illuminates the eyes can help the person become relaxed during sleep and they'll eventually become acclimated to the color. When it's time to deliver the cue during REM, the soft blue light could be replaced by a pulsing or steady red light. This could serve as a cue by invoking a sudden change in mood during the dream. Combine that with a suggestive audible message cue and we have a triple effect ' light, sound and mood. Adding an olfactory cue and a small vibrator to the skin and we have 5 cues. If that doesn't help the dreamer become lucid then they probably took too much melatonin before bed.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scot..Do you think light sleepers who waken too easily to novadreamers cues could benifit from a dose of [melatonin] before bed? Being able to sleep deeper with melatonin.But not too deeply shouldnt that increase chances to see [NDs] cues in the dream scape instead of a blinding light that wakes you most of the time? What do you think? And instead of a recorded message alone how about a constant tone or sound that has been proven to aid sleep and bring you faster towards [beta] [alfa] and all diferant stages of sleep faster? I also read somewhere that [REM] Is not the only dream state. They claim that your brain is activley dreaming all through the night! Not just in [REM] stage..Even though [REM] may be where the longer dreams happen..I have many times woke up 35 or 45 minutes after falling to sleep to recall and record intense vivid dreams..Any opinions welcome.. Tom..

Dear Tom,

I have tried all kinds of herbs and vitamin supplements including Melatonin, DMAE, Octacosanol, Bee Pollen, B6, B12, Turmeric, L-Glutamin, Lethicin, Astaxanthin, Valerin Root, Passion Flower, Cranberry, Zinc and Hops. I've tried them alone and in combinations. Nothing has helped except possibly B6 with vividness. On the nights I became lucid I hadn't taken anything. One morning after a night of eating Japanese food in San Jose, I had a fine LD at 6 am. I attributed it to some ingredient in the food, possibly MSG. But it may have just been a coincidence because I eat Japanese cuisine a lot and haven't had another LD afterward.

I believe that anything a person can do to improve their memory would be helpful. Ginko Biloba is known to help with memory and that may be one herb worth taking. I have not tried it but I will. Have you considered that it may be the color of the light cue that wakes you up? A red light blinking on your closed eye may cause you to become excited which wakes you up. A dim, relaxing blue light may be what you need. In my opinion, if the next LDID to hit the market, including the next generation NovaDreamer, doesn't have red, green and blue lights DON'T BUY IT!

I have found that the HoloSync and HemiSync relaxation music from Centerpoint Research and the Monroe Institute sometimes helps me relax. Most of the sessions last 30 minutes but are not intended to be played while you sleep, so once I start to doze off I turn off the CD player. Check it out.

Last year I had a long and vivid dream during my first REM cycle. In the dream I experienced missing time and it could have easily turned into a nightmare, which I rarely have. One moment I was standing by some parked cars during the day, the next moment the cars were gone and it was dusk. It did not end there and continued as I tried to get my bearings and eventually found a relative and asked them what time it was. Like most people, my dreams are most vivid in the later REM cycles. All of my LDs have occurred in the later REM cycles about 5 or 6 am.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scot..Thanks for the response..Judging by your eloctronic abilitys Building a [LDID] should be childs play for you how far along are you on your project?About colored [leds] I remember talking about that Idea with another forum member about 3 months ago. I told him about an old [1966] life magazine page that talked about colors and how it efected the emotions in the human mind..He was going to try puting colored lens caps over the [ND] [leds] but then I never heard back from him.. I think the human mind has a [mind of its own] in a certain way..I sometimes ask myself how can a man made invention trick the human mind into lucidity? Considering the mind is far more advanced than a man made device? When I look back and remember how a fleeting thought can have such a large efect on the mind..Example..Just being upset or depresed about something can reduce my dream recall to very little for at least a week before it returns..A fleeting thought like..lucid dreaming is so hard to acomplish! That attitude in itself very self defeating and tends to make [LDing] that much harder for me! But on the other hand trying something new with positive expectations helps a lot for me when trying to LD]! I think your Idea with the three R G B lights is an improvment. But Im shure You will have to do much testing with this device on subjects..My problem is still being a too light a sleeper..And mabey a deeper state of sleep may help a little..And how do you rate the [NDs] electronics? simple? moderatly advanced? or highly advanced? Or is it any where near the level of electronics that you deal with at your job? Keep dreaming..Tom..

SUBLIMINAL PERSUASION/CDs OR DVDs

Hello Dreamers,

Perhaps Dr. LaBerge could create a Subliminal Persuasion Audio and/or Video CD/DVD to induce Lucid Dreaming which would contain messages to become Lucid, for example, AT WILL; ONSET OF REM etc.

Subliminal entry into the subconscious mind with specific objectives can be so powerful and effective if done right. My first Lucid Dreaming experiences came from using Affirmations. I would say to myself and outloud "While I Am Dreaming, I Will Realize That I Am Dreaming." And would say that with Intent Determination.

Remember the Movie Theatres and how they have been banned from using subtle, quick cues practically unnoticable to the viewers to get them to purchase popcorn, candy etc.

You can just imagine what a well orchestrated Audio and/or Video (Even a Virtual Reality Type Video) could do! The hidden messages to Lucid Dream could be transmitted under the guise of music and video could be created instructing us with the specifics such as AT WILL: ONSET OF REM etc. with reinforcing, subtle cues like the movie theatres were banned from doing.

I would think that with today's Advanced Multi-Media Technology and Dr. Laberge's expertise such a CD/DVD could be produced and implemented. Dr. Laberge already has a CD contained in the book, "Lucid Dreaming", perhaps another designed strategically for the Subconscious to take in could be devised. .

Anybody have any thoughts on this or connections to a Multi-Media Company?

LD Made Easy! Patricia

Hey Scott, I tried all that stuff too, with the same results. However, I did discover something else that did help me have a lot of LDs: nicotine patches. I wanted to quit smoking, and I used the patch, successfully, and the patches basically turbocharged my head at night. What they'd do is cause much more long and intensly real dreams with a lot of false awakenings, which I'm pretty good at converting into LDs. When I was using the patch all the time to quit smoking, I'd have 4-5 LDs per week, sometimes more. Now, I buy the lowest strenght patch available every now and then (2 week supply) and use them once or twice a week, and I'm virtually assured to have at least one LD every time I use them.

Jason

By the way, as I suggested a few months ago on a different post when I was talking about how I was getting used to red lights, and the mask would be better if it had different colors, they do make tri-color LEDs that don't mix into white...rather they produce one main wavelength at a time. They have one common cathode, and an anode for each color.

http://www.novadreamer.com/discus/messages/249/2133.html?1099418789#POST18022

Jason

I think the next new nova dreamer should have multi colored [leds] red green blue or more colors! AND!!! instead of Just the existing choices of intensity duration and speed..The new nova dreamer should have [ALSO]the choice of a constant light [[no blinking]]set to desired intensity of any color you choose! The Idea of constant green light.. or red.. or blue light..Would that efect the mind any diferent? At least for [some] I feel that the constant colored light may work better than the [more jarring] efect of blinking lights atleast for [light sleepers}.. And the idea of more color choice in [ND] [leds] makes even more sense for me when I think of a past dream in which I [Instantly]became lucid when I came upon a fox a FLORESENT GREEN FOX!! Even though he looked back at me and smiled as I folowed him into the bush I feel that the the unusual striking color jarred me into awareness! FLORESENT GREEN or at least a very bright green..As far as I can see there is no setting for [constant light] on nova dreamer probably because of concern about power consumption? Anyway I feel the Idea of [adjustable] constant [non blinking]colored light may be easyer on light sleepers and mabey some benefit to other types of sleepers..Keep on dreaming..Tom.

I've done a little bit of testing by shining different color lights in my eyes. It's hard to get some colors because your eyelids have blood vessels in them. If you shine a white light through your eyelids, it will appear red. So I don't know how effective different color lights will be.

Dear All,

I'm not a smoker, but can appreciate how certain stimulants, like nicotine, help give a person a boost of energy. In Japan they sell a gum called Black Black. It has a menthol/mint taste and contains caffeine and nicotine. It appeals to truckers and others who can't afford to fall asleep on the job. While I worked in Japan I chewed this gum a lot and ate a whole pack during my climb up Mt. Fuji. It works wonders to keep you awake and energetic and is non-addictive. Has anyone tried something similar, perhaps nicorette gum? Ideally the person would get 5 hours of normal sleep, wake up during the later REM cycles, chew a piece and go back to sleep. The stimulant would take effect after some delay. This may only work for people who sleep soundly, and not wake them up. I have some packs of Black Black leftover from my last trip and I may give this a try, it can't hurt.

On Tri-Colored LEDs"

Ledtronics makes a very tiny one. See URL: http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/sml13rgb/default.asp#5x5mm and the data sheet at URL: http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/SMD-PLCC/Dstr0105.PDF

It is very compact in size (2.8 x 3.2mm), but I don't believe it would work well in an LDIS mask because the viewing angle is 120 degrees meaning it will flood the eyelid with light. The SMT LEDs I use have 25 degree viewing angles so the light is concentrated as a small dot on the eyelid. This allows far better control over how, and where, the light gets injected into the eye. It is especially useful in creating color contrast. In my LDIS mask design, even with a closed eye the colors are very distinct, and not affected very much by the color filtering of the red blood vessels.

Another advantage is the directivity of the light. If the blue light is on, and my eye is looking in that direction (e.g., left), I see the blue light. If the red light is on, and my eye is looking in that direction (e.g., right), I see the red light. I frequently am able to discern the direction of objects in my dreams. No doubt so do the rest of you. If a blue light cue can be directed to the left side of your eye, you may be able to train yourself to become lucid when you see a blue light on your left. If this works, it may be possible to set up a 3 light training device that you can practice with to help you notice the direction of colors in your dreams. This could be some panel the person watches, or the LDIS mask itself could be used as this device. The person watches the panel or wears the mask and the blue cue light randomly flashes on their left. Each time they see it flash they affirm their intention to perform a reality test. The problem with the ND is it has one light located in one location. And, since I don't own an ND, I can't comment on how wide the LED viewing angle is. It may be very wide to make sure the eyelid gets well illuminated. If so, each time it flashes the dreamers eyes see a flood of red light. Those of you who own one can test this. If each flash of the light looks like a diffuse glow with no discernable direction then you have your answer.

The experts all agree that to become lucid, you must train yourself to instinctively recognize dreamsigns or cues and then perform a reality test. Cues from an LDIS mask, if designed correctly, can be specific and your training to recognize them can also be specific. I know that light can incorporate itself in strange ways into your dream. But it seems unrealistic to try to train yourself to perform a reality test every time you see a light. That is too general and you'd end up doing hundreds of reality tests a day because of the huge number of lights you are exposed to. Again, my argument is to make a LDID very specific with three distinct colored light that you can see from three distinct directions. Does anyone have a better argument for something different?

Lastly, when I put all the finishing touches on my LDIS mask design I would like to take it to the Lucidity Institute and give them a demonstration. And I wouldn't be opposed to letting them test it for a while in their sleep lab. Pushing a technology forward is all about cooperation and teamwork.

Regards,

Scot Stride

That is a good point, I hadn't thought of the directional aspect of the cues, only the colors being different. I depend on my whole field of vision flashing at me, which it almost always does. I got my ND about 1 1/2 years ago and was wishing it had more than one color back then because while I was training to recognize the cues, I'd have to do reality checks every time I drove my car, because I'd ALWAYS see tail lights. It got to be pretty annoying. Fast.

As for the nicotine, I read that it has the intense effect on your dreams because it's being released at a steady pace throughout the night via the patch. Something about the stimulant triggering receptors in the brain during REM. (not really sure what they're talking about, my degree is in mechanical engineering and not neurology!) Even the heaviest of smokers don't smoke while they're asleep, so they don't see these types of effects. So the gum definitely has to be some kind of delayed release kind, I'm not sure if they make that or not. Also, it IS a drug, so obviously use some caution there. If you want to try it, I'd definitely reccomend the "step 3" or 7mg patch (comes in 21mg and 14mg versions as well). It's the lightest strength and will not increase sleep latency as much, especially if you put it on several hours before going to bed.

Jason

Scot:

So what about David's point about the fact that these lights, whatever color they are, must pass through eyelid tissue that is bound by the blood flowing through it to change their initial color (or make them all appear red, regardless of their initial hue)? Might that render color options moot? Have you been able to do any experimenting on that front?

Peter

Dear Peter,

In a recent message I said the light colors are easily discernable through a closed eyelid. I have experimented with seeing color and trust me you can. The key is making the LED spot size small which is possible using tiny LEDs with clear domed lenses. The ones I use have 1.8mm diameter lenses. When you place them close to your eyelid the true color easily penetrates the eyelid. I toyed with using fiber optics and 0.5mm diameter collimators, but the optics were cumbersome to align and larger than the tiny LEDs. The improvement in spot size was not worth the effort. The LEDs can be placed as close as 3mm apart. Go to my website and look at the photos then you'll realize how tiny the optics are. http://www.interstellar-probes.org/LDIS_Photos.htm

Regards,

Scot Stride

Has anyone used a light/sound device (which flashes lights and sounds at certain frequencies to induce certain brainwaves) and found it useful for lucid dreaming? Also, has anyone ever experienced any negative effects from using a light/sound machine?

Thanks! Avi

Avi, I've been experimenting with all sorts of mind-entrainment tapes and CD's for years, and my empirical experience is this: You may get a dramatic result in terms of LD frequency, but it tends to be short-lived, becaue, I believe, of accomodation to the stimulus. Then there's the problem of when to play the sounds; all night, as one falls asleep, or at a time when you are likely to be dreaming. I have had most success in the latter situation. Currently I am testing with a CD alarm clock that plays mind sync LD induction CDs to my pillow speakers at 4 am and again at 6 am. My initial results were dramatic, but unsuccessful since.

I doubt that the mind-entrainment is enhancing LD initiation, but the sounds themselves, being unusual, enter the dream as dream cues and grab the attention, which can lead to an LD. For this effect any sounds, even plain dialog, will work, until the mind accomodates, after which the sounds aren't even heard in the dream.

Paul

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Paul. An idea I had in particular was to get some of the light/sound-machine glasses that flash the multi-colored LEDs in your eyes about 12 times/second. Then I could wake up after 4.5 hours of sleep, stay up for 20 minutes, and then use the flashes to induce brain-waves conducive to hypnogogic imagery. In this hypothetical experiment, I imagine taking them off, and going back to sleep into an easy-to-enter WILD. Do you think this is possible? If not, I probably wouldn't want to spend the $200 to get the light/sound machine.

What you said about the mind habituating to external cues is amazing and seems to be true. I've definitely experienced this phenomenon with my NovaDreamer.

Avi

Avi, I don't know the answer to your question, but my guess is that anything that can initiate hypnogogic imagery would help you have more WILDs, but whether flashing lights can do it, I just don't know.

I have had WILDs just using the dream alert function of my NovaDreamer. Have you tried this? Sometime when you have extra sleep time in the am, wear your ND and set it to awaken you after it detects a REM period at the end of a night's sleep (long delay). An actual REM cue isn't necessary, so I leave the dial on zero. If I'm real sleepy, I go right back into a lucid dream after a brief awakening. Works pretty well.

Good dreaming, Paul

Thanks for the tip, Paul. I'll try the long-delay WILD idea. When you have a WILD, do you actually have a true continuity between waking consciousness and dream consciousness (or do you just remember after you are in the dream?). Any particular techniques good for entering WILDs? I've read EWLD about the topic, but haven't had a real WILD yet (but have had several DILDs).

Best, Avi

Avi, I've had classic WILDs where I wake up completely, but by keeping my eyes closed and staying in a relaxed but alert mode of consciousness--and that's the key, not to fall back into dreamless sleep or wake up completely--I have drifted back into REM sleep and a dream, with unbroken consciousness. Sometimes the dream is sceneless and dark for a while at first, at other times I begin to experience the vibrations, then enter the dream. If I try to push the dream, I usually end up awake. I have to let it evolve.

I've also had WILD's where I do lose consciousness, but only briefly, before popping into the dream. I call these WILDs because I was just awake, and because they obviously aren't DILDs. Maybe they don't meet the strict definition, but they're close enough.

It helps if you're really tired. Stay up too late and set the alarm to wake up early. When you wake up, just follow that dreamy, drowsy feeling right into your first WILD.

Paul

Since several threads are talking about WILDs, I thought I'd try to describe in a step-by-step manner how it feels and what it's like to have this experience. It can be a strange one in many ways with unusual sense perceptions and feelings. There can be strong emotional reactions, anything from fear to frustration also.

This is only my experience, not dogma. I only hope to help my fellow oneironauts who want to experience this. And they are marvelous LDs!

First of all, I must admit that I can't do this consistently whenever I like. It still happens on a sometimes basis, however the conditions and feelings are very consistent.

1. Being a little sleep-deprived by staying up later than usual seems to promote my WILDs. So does staying in bed a LOT longer than normal. I set aside extra hours, maybe four or five, on Saturday or Sunday morning for this purpose.

2. Most of my WILDS are at the end of sleep time, only rarely during the earlier part of the night.

3. The moment I first awaken in the morning (I may or may not have been dreaming)I can feel or sense somehow that conditions are right. If I start awake, bolt upright, that bodes ill, although all hope is not lost. It's better if I awaken gradually, however. I lie still, eyes closed. Internally I'm still fairly sleepy or drowsy, or groggy, a bit like being drugged.

4. I feel the tug of sleep pulling at my consciousness, like the pull of gravity. I now give myself some thoughts to maintain some alertness, "Let's go dreaming", or "Let's find that gray space" I don't obsess, just let the thoughts play, like we do when falling asleep. And I keep a fairly steady gaze forward under my closed eyelids, like I'm searching for the dream. I don't want to forget my goal, to stay somewhat alert.

5. At this point I may experience hynogogic imagery, or I may begin experiencing vibations or other sense experiences, as I transit into REM. I may experience nothing unusual as well. I know now that I'm no longer truly awake, so I'm already lucid. Whatever comes, I have to try not to grab at it or push it away. I welcome the sensations in my thoughts.

6. For me the vibrations are very much like the chills you get when you have a fever, not really vibrations at all, but not unpleasant either. They may stay centered at my back, or move to my abdomen and extremities. They also wax and wane on their own. I let them go on as long as they care to.

7. I also know that I'm probably paralysed, so I don't want to struggle to get up or move in any way. Sometime at this point I will wink out momentarily before the next stage, Usually I stay conscious. There's a subtly different feeling to my awareness, however, that's hard to describe. I think the word "expanded" is a good one. I don't feel like my awareness is centered in my head anymore. It's more "out there".

8. I'm really already dreaming at this point, but I may feel discouraged because there's no dream scene yet. Sometimes I get over eager at this point and try to get out-of-body by force of will. This almost always causes me to wake up. If I forget about my body in bed, and just focus on the gray space, as I call it, one of a couple of probable events will occur. I may go on to a typical OBE type of experience, floating up and out into my bedroom or some other dream scene, or an aperture in the center of the gray will open, and there will be the dream fully formed. In either case, it's an LD and I'm free to do as I like.

Enjoy, Paul