Hi, Tavis!

Welcome to the Forum.

Please excuse the long delay. I wish, someone more experienced than me had answered. We already had some experiments in mutual lucid dreaming, refer to the Dreaming and Awakening Maui 2001 thread. All in all I can say, that it isn't easy to make a person or object appear by sheer will. Nonetheless I'll give you some suggestions, thinking, that you certainly used some of these techniques:

Simply turn around in an LD, assuming the person has already been behind you. Open the next door, walk around the next corner, expecting to see, whom you wish. Spin into a new dream scene concentrating on the persons picture, the characters home, etc. Call the person.

Before bed, set intentions to meet the character. Draw a picture, write the name, etc.

Creating an object or person is similar to creating a dreamscene. A hard task in my eyes, if done by will alone. Some yogis and maybe some western dreamers are able to do it. Linus had done similar things in his LD. Maybe you should ask him. I'm still working on keeping given dreamscenes stable, once lucid. What are your techniques for prolonging lucid dreams?

Maybe you can relate to L.L. Magallon's works regarding mutual dreams and dream telepathy. She must have some advice, I still had no time to read her whole website or any of her books.

Hope, that helps

Ralf

Tavis -

That is such an interesting question. I'm fascinated by the difference between the vagueness of what we visualize and the intense realism of dream images - when it's our mind that makes both. I posted some musings about this somewhere back in this thread several weeks ago. Why CAN'T we visualize something as vividly detailed as what we can dream?

I've been waiting to see if others more experienced than I would answer your question, because although I do succeed in creating stable, realistic dream objects, I'm at a loss to say how I do it. It always happens in a surprising, unexpected way. I think of it, look up, and there it is. Or I find it just around the corner, as Ralf described. Or I mentally grab something else that I spot in my peripheral vision, maybe something that's the right color, and rapidly transform it into the desired item. Or I hear or feel it before I see it.

Once I was determined to make a red rose. I concentrated on a dark spot on a tablecloth, willing it to transform. I gradually shaped it in my mind and although it took on a red rose form, it was still the faint, unrealistic sort of image that you describe. Then, suddenly, there it was: an absolutely vivid, exquisitely detailed, three dimensional perfectly realistic rose, with dewdrops gleaming on its petals - but it was pink!

Maybe I have advice after all: As a dear friend of mine used to say, in reference to anything at all, "Always expect the unexpected."

Joy

Thank you for the replies. Now that I think about it, it makes sense that there is some difficulty in creating something right in front of your eyes in a lucid dream. It might be that your mind isn't used to being able to create things right in front of you when your awake so it has trouble accepting the fact that it can be done in a dream. It's like there is a part of you that still thinks "this is reality, how can such impossible events happen?" When you both mentioned that you turn around, assuming the person or object has been there, it occured to me that in a dream, your subconscious has trouble observing the dramatic feat of willing something to appear before your eyes, but has no trouble observing it when it doesen't happen in front of you.

Thank you for the insight, both of you.

Tavis

Tavis,

In regards to your question of Jan 20 concerning creating and stabilizing LD images:

From my perspective, creating stable dream characters is a talent that we are born with, some more than others. It is a talent we can strengthen, or maybe better said, it is a muscle we can exercise and strengthen. I suspect that anything we do to practice imaging helps. I like what Ralf said about drawing a picture of your dream character before bedtime. I also like the Tibetan mental exercises to which Joy has referred several times under various threads. I suspect any mental exercise that you like would be helpful. The more color, perhaps the better. The more senses included in the imaging, perhaps the better. For instance, if you are imaging that you are in a meadow, you can smell the flowers, run a blade of grass through your fingers, taste the water of a babbling brook.

It might be that when your mind becomes used to being able to create anything right in front of you (albeit with your eyes closed) when you are awake, it will have no trouble accepting the fact that it can be done in a dream.

Happy Valentine's Day and sweet dreams to All!

Mary

Aloha, LD-ers. On the subject of creating people or things by will in a dream, I suggest a long fanship with science fiction or fantasy in your waking life, so that your mind will more easily accept the idea of spontaneous creation. In a recent lucid dream I had, I created a person using verbal description as I had once heard it done in a "twilight Zone" episode. Check out the section on "Dreaming and Awakening Feb 02, The Big Island" for more details on the dream. It was wonderful, and I didn't find it hard to create my handsome Hawaiian boyfriends out of thin air. Spinning, indeed, is a wonderful dream scene shifter, and the sensory stimulation keeps you in the dream. I've also used Mister Spock's own phrases sometimes in dreams as a reality tester, and finding that physical laws are, indeed, being ignored, discover I'm dreaming and become lucid. The more familiar you are with the concepts of magical type thinking in your waking life, such as that found in sci fi and fantasy, the easier spontaneous creation is. Aloha, Thea.

Also note that Thea has absolutely no expectation of the sharp VISUAL images that so elude the conjurings of sighted dreamers, who might do well to close dream-eyes and focus on the other senses.

Joy

I experimented a little with this, this morning: I recognized I was dreaming when I "woke up" unable to see anything, and stayed blind through an interesting dream. Try it!

Purrs to Thea,

Joy

Having raised the question, "Why CAN'T we visualize something as vividly detailed as what we can dream?" - I should report that I got a chance to ask Stephen LaBerge this question at dream camp and he said we have a specific physiological mechanism to prevent our doing so while awake - apparently for the practical purpose of keeping us from, for instance, sitting in the imaginary chair....

-- and I've done another experiment with dreaming blind, this time in a thick fog, concentrating on textures - which were extremely vivid and realistic. Suggestion: if you find yourself dreaming in the fog, in the dark, or unable to open your eyes or see clearly for any reason, take advantage of the opporunity!

Joy

Dream Tools!

I don't know if this should be a separate topic, or just head it under this one... it kind of relates to the "what to do while lucid" thread, although it seems to also relate to some of the "secondary techniques."

What I'm interested in with this post are dream tools. I've read accounts from several dreamers who mention special devices they use within dreams to move, fight battles, fly, cause items or people to appear, etc. I want to start a conversation about the tools that we use within our lucid dreams.

I read about the idea of a dream toolkit somewhere, and my partner made me a drawstring bag that holds my tools... I have an iron key (which can open any door), a tiny whisk broom (you can ride it across the sky once you're done using it to bowl over monsters or clear debris), a tiny packet of herbs with a letter inside (I haven't read it, in real life or in dreams, yet - it's sealed up in there, stitched inside a tiny pillow!)... I want to get a tiny sword, some cool miniature costumes, maybe some other items like a ring and a cauldron. I don't think that they really seep into my dreams from having them beside my bed, so much as they seep into my imagination from handling them before bedtime, and visualizing having them at my disposal. I'm still learning to use them in lucid dreams, although they do show up from time to time in non-lucid dreams.

The dream tool that I use the most is a real-life ball of red string that I wrapped by hand, and I use it mostly in active imagination to bind, to tie, to fish stuff out of the dream fog, or to keep track of my path. When I wrapped my ball of string, I chanted to it course by course: "This is my Ariadne's thread; it will lead me back and back; this is my Ariadne's thread, it will help me keep on track." alternating with "A clue is a ball of yarn... and a ball of yarn will be my clue..." The word "clue" (or "clew" or "clough") originally meant "a ball of yarn" - it became "something to figure out a puzzle" when Ariadne gave one to Theseus to help him navigate the labyrinth. I will often visualize tying something to the end of the string (the big iron key is my favorite) and then whirling it in an arc over my head and throwing it into the fog of lost memory, where it wraps around some vague lumpy shape, kind of like a bolo... I "reel it in" with the red string, and then allow impressions of what it is to filter into my mind. It's a great way to improve dream recall for me.

What really piqued my interest this morning was a dream where I was looking for a "Go Card" - I didn't find one, but I felt certain that if I could have found one, I could have used it to transfer to one place to another. The image in my mind was of large pasteboard cards with images on them, rather like the "Trumps" in Roger Zelazny's "Amber" series. You look at the picture until it seems to become real, and then step forward into it.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=oakenking&itemid=55399#cutid1

is the dream I was in when I was looking for the Go Card.

Has anybody else developed tools and techniques like this to get things done in the lucid world? What's worked for you?

Clearly, Michael

Sorry to interrupt the thread on using dream tools as I think that it's a great idea but wanted to post on "Stabilizing Dream Images". Why not practice visualization in the waking state? I've done a fair ammount of visualization practice and have found that the visualization "muscle" gets considerably stronger with use. A good way to start is by imagining simple geometric forms: a circle, triangle, square, etc. in various colors and holding the image firmly in mind, then begin combining forms: a red triangle inside a blue circle, etc. As you begin to gain a modicum of control, meaning that you can hold the images in mind without them distorting, changing color or size, etc. increase the complexity and add movement. Visualize the pendulum of a clock moving to and fro or gears meshing and turning together. Use your imagination to elaborate on these simple exercises. An important component in visualizing "real" objects is observation. You can begin to train this faculty with the following exercise: Select an object that appeals to you, a flower, vase, coffee cup, whatever and study it in detail for a minute or so. I find that scanning the object from top to bottom in a logical fashion helps. I also mentally talk the details out like: okay, there's a slight shadow here, it grows darker here and the light reflects off the handle on the left side, etc. After you have studied the object for some time, close your eyes and imagine it as vividly as possible. You'll find that you've already forgotten details so open your eyes, take another quick look and visualize it again. Keep practicing. It will get easier and easier until one day you are able to create perfect or near perfect replicas of objects in your mind. You can do this with sounds, feelings, smells, etc. The next step in these exercises is to begin to take the mental image or sensation that you have created and project it outwards into your environment. Meaning, if you've been visualing a lamp with your eyes closed, open your eyes and see it superimposed in your environment. In time one can learn to see the object or experience the sensation as if it were objectively there - a willed hallucination as it were. It should be an easy matter to recreate such an object or sensation in the dream state once one has acquired the requisite level of control and ability in the waking state. Another useful exercise is taking mental snapshots or videos. I like to take a walk and store images and sensory impressions. I do this by giving the image or sensation a descriptive name and using my mind like a computer. In example: SAVE "Vermillion Clouds at Sunset" or SAVE "Warm Sunshine on my Back". Later in meditation I will recall the memory by saying LOAD "Vermillion Clouds at Sunset". One can start building full sensory environments in such a manner. I performed this exercise with the image of a waterfall. At first it was a static, hazy and unrealistic image. After a couple of nights of working with the same imagery the waterfall came to life. The water flowed, I could hear it, feel mist on my skin, etc. In someways, it is as if practicing exercises such as these begins to tap the part of your mind that CAN visualize with exquisite detail such as happens in lucid dreams without our even trying and begins to bring them under control. Food for thought.

Dear Michael,

I enjoyed the poetic and mythic elements of your narrative. Throwing an iron key tied to the end of a ball of yarn and reeling back images and objects from the dream fog is quite creative.

I personally like the idea of previsualizing devices to use in dreams to achieve a particular task. For example, how about a hand held GPS device for displaying your whereabouts in the dream environment and helping one to navigate? One could work out some of the details while awake such as what the object looks like, how it functions, where the buttons are positioned and what they do; i.e. this button displays a map, this button displays an overlay of where I've been, this button shows me where other dream figures are currently located in the dream environment, etc. Then again, one could imagine a magic mirror, speak one's intent directly into it such as "Show me where I am," and watch the images as they appear on the surface. One could also use the mirror to travel by stepping through it, retrieve objects by simply grabbing them from the mirror, the possibilities are nearly endless. I don't see the advantage of carrying these objects around with you unless it gives you some sense of continuity in the dream state. I think that merely working out what they look like and how they function would be enough to call them up. This is all theoretical on my part, I haven't tried anything remotely like this yet but the dream mirror intrigues me and I may give it a shot during my next lucid dream.

Quinn

Quinn wrote:

I don't see the advantage of carrying these objects around with you unless it gives you some sense of continuity in the dream state.

It's not so much that I need to feel like I'm carrying all this around in my dreams - the idea is to have, whenever I want it, the bag that contains whatever tool I might need at the moment. I find it is often difficult to materialize complicated items out of "thin air" in my dreams, but if I can reach into a bag, a cabinet, or a drawer and "find" them, it's easier. The bag that exists in the real world is just a "pattern" to help me impress upon my dreaming mind that I have this toolkit at my disposal.

I like the mirror idea as well... I have a 2" square slab of Labradorite that appears to have all kinds of clouds and images in it, and I'm working on building it through visualization work into a transport or travel device - but a mirror would also be a useful tool. I haven't had the best of luck with trans-mirror travel, though - so far, my nearest effort has gotten me stuck inside of a gray featureless space with a mirror-sized hole leading into the room I just left. I've had better luck going through doors and such - which is why I put the Bronze Key in the bag, in case I came across a door that needed unlocking.

I also like your idea of strengthening the visualization 'muscles' through waking visualization work. Have you been able to get to the point of "waking hallucination?" I can get near to it, but my imagination stops short of allowing me to see what isn't there in broad daylight. When it's very dim, like in a candle-lit room, I can do a little better, but still not quite "there it is" real, more like a shadowy impression of shape.

Shadow-shifting my way to Dreamland, Michael

Still getting the gist of this system, when replying to messages is it best to link to the message in question?

Michael,

Regarding dream tools:

I hadn't thought of the possibility that it may be harder to materialize an object from scratch than it is to find it, but actually this makes a great deal of sense. Creating the object from scratch relies to a large extent on the individual's ability to visualize and override the dreams tendency to morph and change things while finding the object allows the part of the mind that is already churning up fabulously detailed imagery to create what one needs without the individual having to struggle with it consciously. Just expect to find the object! Hmm, this is turning into quite an interesting thread and I can't wait to try some experiments in which I compare the relative merits of active visualization versus passive finding! My excitement may be getting ahead of my proficiency though. I've had my Nova Dreamer for about a week and have had a couple of lucid dreams with it but am still fine tuning my practice, incorporating early morning naps, etc. With all luck I may be able to post a report on visualization versus finding and also sigil usage in dream state soon. Hang tight and wish me luck.

As regards waking state visualization, creating a willed hallucination, I sometimes pratice seeing objects in my environment as I go through my day. An orange sitting on my desk when there isn't one, a sigil hanging in the air in front of me, the Buddha smiling enigmatically from the chair across from me, etc. The images are still very much visualizations in that I can see through them but I've noticed that at times they flash and seem to grow more solid when I persist with them. I find if I have a model to work with, if I am duplicating a real object the results are stronger. For example, I use to practice looking at myself in front of a mirror, taking in every detail and then imagining myself across the room. I used this as an exercise for strengthening the dreambody and I would practice transferring awareness to the image, looking out from its eyes, looking at myself. One time the image was so clear and so real I wasn't sure if I was looking at the created image or inside the created image looking at myself. The experience lasted only a moment. I've read that using a cardboard tube to look through as you imagine the visual image helps to create the objective experience as it blocks out most of the distracting elements in your environment. Also, starting practice by visualizing on a white background helps.

Best of luck,

Quinn

Hey! Lately I've began carrying around little stones or whatever I find just to have something in my hand to stimulate the tactile sense. The idea of carrying around a bag full with useful tools seems much smarter. It's a great idea!

I've been thinking similar ways before and one object which I have been searching for many times is this ancient magic sword. The first and only time I've got my hands on it was in a pre-lucid dream. I was playing some kind of game and jumped around with this Japanese-style sword in my hands shooting light bolts and fireballs in every direction. After this dream I've been trying to find the sword once again. I've tried to make it appear infront of me by pure thought. I've tried to ask people for it and so forth. And even if I've been close to it many times and heard several stories about this sword the closest I've come is a skewer. But it was quite useful too. I remember I poked this snotty rich guy and stole his corvette. Haha! Anyway, if I ever get my hands on this sword once more I'm quite sure I might be able to use it to teleport me away to an ancient time with vast forests, dragons, wizards and all the things I like. The magic it posses is almost unlimited. The catch is it's so darn hard to find.

Another thing I tried a year ago or something was pretending I had this little control pad on the underside of my arm. A computer with which I could control everything. I think I tried it twice. The first time was a failure. I didn't find it when I looked on my arm and just pressing invisible buttons made me feel stupid. The other time the same thing happened. But when I looked up again the forest around me had grown much bigger and the leaves had turned red, orange and all kinds of colors. It felt magic somehow. I think it was glittering a little. A change in the right direction. But it was certainly not the kind of "total control" which I had in mind. But I actual think it was a good idea. I must try it again.

I've also been experimenting with dream guides and found them to been rather useful. It's a great way to interact with the dream world, it's a natural link between the conscious you and your sub conscious. Maybe I could combine the dream guide with the bag filled with useful tools? If I have a LD tonight I will ask the nearest person to give me a useful tool. Hopefully something like a teleport device or similar.

ggg I like the story about your desperate search for your magic sword..

Have you tried suggestion? Or maybe you should imagine finding your sword in waking condition?! (I could borrow you mine g)

I didn't have any LD's last night, but this night I had and I did as I told you. After jumping around a little (like Joe Eigo) I met three persons out walking with a dog. I asked if they had any tools for me. Something which could be useful here in the dream world. And so they described this thing they called "the dream light". A big candle about half and meter long. They said that it would light the dream world up, hunting the darkness away and preventing you from premature awakening. But when I asked where I could find this candle they never gave me a proper answer. I got the feeling that the dog might have something to do with it. It looked guilty. As if it had teared it to bits or something. I searched the ditch behind them but all I found was some poor child's backpack, filled with school books. Then I meandered out in the woods and finally got caught in some bushes. I nearly woke up but was able to come back by rubbing my hands. The LD continued farther off but then I had given up the dream light.

The dream light would have been a really useful tool though. I think I'll ask for it again sometime.

"Have you tried suggestion?" Nope" might be a good idea. In one dream I was on the street outside my house. I got the picture of the sword in front of my eyes and told me it would be behind me when I turned around. I felt totally convinced. But oh no, nothing, not even a little knife.

Saying you can do anything and everything in the dream world might indeed be correct theoretical speaking. But speaking practical I'm not even close. Even the simplest little tasks seems to be intentionally misinterpreted by my subconscious. I ask for an ancient powerful sword and I get a little skewer. I ask for a portal to the roman age and end up in my basement, and so on and so on... But one day, I'll be the master, and then nothing can stop me... hahah!!!!

I'm convinced that you actually really get what you want - those hidden wishes resp. hidden important stuff... e.g. what you fear, what keeps you uncomfortable, unsatisfied. If these feelings are strong in ourselves, we will keep on creating and manifesting those emotions whatever we create. To create a dream is very "easy", and even the most subtle things can appear in it.

Maybe it's not a question of will, but the question of how far you can disillusion your fears and blockades... And this is the best thing to be coped with in waking life.

I'm sure that you one day will find one of those things in your dream, beautiful methaphors by the way! You inspired me to this as well...

Keep on searching =)

Natalie

Dear Linus,

Have you tried getting really insistent with the dream characters to get what you want? Maybe you should have held the dog ransom until they yielded up the dream light! Then again, maybe the dream light is a reference to the Nova Dreamer - the old unit was called the Dream Light I believe and does just what they say it did. Do you use one or do you dream freestyle? Maybe your dream objects are disguised and the skewer is the sword but you just don't recognize it! Lol!

Still trying to get back in to the lucid state, found a guide and had a most interesting experience flying over a Maxfield Parish type landscape and getting instruction on how to fly but wasn't working on the dream tool idea yet.

Keep trying, it sounds like your very close!

-Quinn

"Have you tried getting really insistent with the dream characters to get what you want?"

No I haven't. When they pretend to not understand I usually just move on asking someone else. I think I'll follow your advice. Next time I won't give up that easy. Taking ransom might be a good idea.

"Do you use one or do you dream freestyle?" I don't have one, but I wish I did. But the thing is I have no money. To lazy to work you know...

Well, a happy new year and lots of wonderful dreams to all of you!

Mirrors......I've never had much success interacting with a mirror. A little progress last week.

I smiled at myself and the reflection smiled back. I put my right arm in the mirror and put my hand behind the head of the reflection and pulled.

A copy of me emerged from the mirror. So there were two of me. I looked in the mirror and now saw two reflections, one was me, one a stranger.

Has anyone got any suggestions for straightforward but interesting mirror tasks?

Owen

Warm Greetings, Dear Owen! It's always good to hear from you!

Regarding lucid dream experiments with a mirror: The one you've just described might be hard to beat! It reminds me of seeing my dream reflection as a six-year-old version of myself. I've posted the dream elsewhere on the Forum before, but will repeat the most interesting part. We reached our hands out to each other and "she" stepped out to join "me". If I were to dream this imagery again, there are certainly some questions I'd like to ask "her". And you? What would you do with this "stranger" that emerged in your dream, given another opportunity?

Did you notice any background in your dream mirror? If so, 'twould not be surprising, but what an example of pure mental construct! The thought reminds me of another dream in which I was startled by a rather evil -looking little creature standing beside me in a mirror. When I turned my head to look at the "real" thing, there was nothing beside me! (Quelle surprise.) Fortunately this cued lucidity. When I looked back into the mirror, the wee demon was there -- wearing a positively elfish grin. Nothing but a mere illusion afterall.

Sweet reflections to all, Keelin

Keelin,

In the dream I described there was an unusual prelude to the mirror episode. I had entered the room where my piano is, intending to play, but who should be there on the stool.....me, smiling at me. I left the room and then the mirror episode. I'd never come across myself young or old in a dream before. What to ask, I'll have to think for the future!

I haven't noticed the background in mirror dreams, usually I'm preoccupied with my image.

I've tried to climb through the mirror, a la Alice, but it's either hard or I go into the black void, spin etc.

Owen

Dear Owen, Were you not tempted to play a duet?

;) Keelin

Keelin,

Now that's an idea!

I could try another way also. I once reported an experiment where I cut off my fingers and made a huge pile of them when they regenerated.

Perhaps I could cut off a couple of arms and stick them back on my torso and so I'd have four arms for the duet. Problem is that I'm not that good a pianist even with two arms.

Owen

Owen,

You are mad! How long did it take to make a huge pile of regenrated fingers? Where is this post? I'd like to read it. Also, rather then cut your arms off, do you think you could just extrude two extra ones? Dreams seem to follow their own logic, maybe it's easier to cut off your arms, wait for two new ones to grow back and stick the others on but I'd imagine that I'd just be walking around with my poor severed arms on the ground and no way to reattach them. Did you will the fingers to regenerate or did they just do that?

The subject of mirrors in dreams is fascinating. I've never tried going through one or pulling something out of one but I always look different through the mirror, younger or with a different hairstyle, not my face, someone else's face, covered in tatoos, it varies.

Pulling your own dream image out is brilliant. I imagine that doing so would be easier than merely willing another you into existence as the duplicate you is already being represented. You expect to see yourself (or a version of yourself) in the mirror and so you do (ususally). Pulling yourself out isn't such a big stretch in dream logic. You can see it, why not grab it?

Did your duplicate look like the current you or were there variances? Just curious.

-Quinn

Quinn, I couldn't find the dream searching for fingers, but here is the relevant extract from it again from my journal. I exaggerated before, the pile was not huge but small, a pile nevertheless.

".....I put my left hand flat on the table and with the side of my right hand press down through the index finger of my left hand. I withdraw my left hand leaving my left index finger on the table. I pick it up with my right hand. I examine the cut surface. It is slightly more pink than skin coloured and homogeneous in texture. I put my left hand out of sight, then bring it back into view and the finger has regenerated. I then put my left hand down again, flat on the table, and with my right hand chop off the whole of my left hand at the wrist. When I bring my withdrawn left arm into view I see that the ends of all the fingers are chopped off, not the whole hand. I then decide to chop lots of fingers. I put my left hand now again complete back on the table and with my right hand chop off the ends of the fingers with the edge of my right hand. I repeat this again and again and make a little pile of cut off fingers. I pick up some of the fingers with my right hand and let them drop back on the pile. I notice again the homogeneous pink cut surfaces of the fingers. The fingers are small and dainty with neatly cut nails....."

I think getting extra arms by cutting followed by regeneration (which with me required no effort of will) would be easier than trying just will new arms to grow.

Can the brain work four arms independently? We need an organ playing LDer to see if the stops can be worked with the extra arms.

I didn't NOTICE that the duplicate of me that I pulled out looked odd, but I was more concerned with looking back in the mirror.

Owen

Hi I have been trying the Nova Dream mask for a few weeks now, and am having trouble geting to grips with it. I have tried the preset modes 1,2,3, with no luck, so I have found a good mode with ajusting mode1.OK. Last night I had a dream I was on a roof and needed to get into a door that was on the roof, the door needed a key, it was dark I looked down and found a flasnlight, great I can use it to find the key for the door. OOps it flashed in to my eyes! was that a sign I was dreaming? I moved the flashlight around and saw the keys for the door, I reached for them and as i did a siren went off and flashing RED lights came on! was that a sign I was dreaming!!! I opened the door with the key and went inside just after a man came to the door, I said who is that, and he replied it's me who else, I looked at his face and it was ME!!! was that a sign I was dreaming, and if so with all these signs WHY can't I say to myself I am dreaming lets have some fun. I know the Nova Mask is doing it's job, WHY can't I do mine and say to myself I am dreaming, I think I need one of you to come into one of my dreams and give me a good smack in the face. Can anyone help me with this problem, I get so fedup reading all of your great adventures in the world of lucid dreaming, I wan't to join in PLEASE!!!!!!! Happy Trails. Frank

Frank, hello! First of all, you are SO close; please don't get discouraged! :-)

Truly, if you remember the dream that well, and you saw lights in the dream, and the dream was about finding keys to something... I really believe you are close. I think it's pretty interesting that it was "you" in the dream... it certainly seems like "you're" trying to tell "yourself" something, doesn't it?

Without knowing anything about what you're doing to prepare for lucid dreaming, I would venture to say the one essential thing people underestimate is doing Reality Checks during the day. You might even call it the KEY to lucidity.

I know those Reality Checks can seem sort of silly... I mean, it's easy to dismiss the idea, or just do rather absentminded ones. But there's nothing like regular sincere Reality Checks to get in the habit of critically evaluating what state you are in. Eventually, this habit will lead to your doing a sincere Reality Check in the dream-state.

If you need help or review with any of this, you should take another peek in the NovaDreamer manual, and/or Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.

Don't give up, Frank... I know you'll be delighted when it finally happens. WHEN, not if!

By the way, I really appreciate reading on-topic posts from people like you, and I wish you all the best. Don't get too frantic about the whole thing, either... relax and enjoy the process. If you're not keeping some kind of dream-journal, I think that helps.

Anyway... Turn the key, Open the door, See the Light... and I'm sure we'll hear from you soon! :-)

Reverie

This subject may be somewhat taboo but I'm going to broach it anyway...

DELETED BY AUTHOR

Hi Frank,

As Reverie has pointed out, you are indeed on your way. And if you take the advice below, you'll even be able to enjoy the journey!

;) Keelin

USING MISSED DREAMSIGNS AS STEPPING STONES TO LUCIDITY

How to Set your Mind to Learn to Recognize Dreamsigns By Stephen LaBerge

Having a lucid dream requires, by definition, knowing that you are dreaming. If there were no differences between dreaming and waking life, there would be no way to know that you were experiencing one state and not the other. Fortunately, there are characteristic differences between the two states that allow you to know whether or not you are dreaming. In other words, there are features that make dreams "dreamlike." Learning to recognize these distinctive features, typically termed "dreamsigns," is one of the most basic and powerful methods of inducing lucid dreams.

Examples of dreamsigns include: miraculous flight, changing writing, malfunctioning devices, and meeting deceased people. By studying your dreams you can become familiar with your own personal dreamsigns and set your mind to recognize them and become lucid in future dreams.

The cultivation of dreamsign awareness as a method for learning lucid dreaming is described in full detail in EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING, and A COURSE IN LUCID DREAMING. The Course also provides exercises for noticing dreamsigns while you are awake, so that the skill carries over into your dreams. This exercise also applies to lucid dream induction devices, which give sensory cues--special, artificially-produced dreamsigns--while you are dreaming. To succeed at recognizing these cues in dreams, you need to practice looking for them and recognizing them while you are awake.

Most dreams you recall will contain at least one, but more likely several dreamsigns. Until you have developed at least a moderate degree of lucidity, you will almost never recognize these dream oddities for what they are, and this leads to a pitfall which can block progress until it is understood and corrected: the mistake (common among novice lucid dreamers) is to focus on how uncritical their minds are during dreaming, using each missed dreamsign as another example proving that they "never recognize dreamsigns". This is a mistake! If you do that, you use missed dreamsigns to learn that you're too unreflective, stupid, or whatever to become lucid. This isn't what you want to learn, is it?

What you want to learn is how to recognize when you're dreaming by getting to know your dreamsigns. Thus you should make sure that you reflect on which parts of your dream could have told you that you were dreaming, and resolve that the next time something like that dreamsign reoccurs, you will remember that you are dreaming! So, if you wake from a dream in which you fail to notice that the friend you were talking to has been dead for years, you firmly resolve that if you ever see that person again you will realize that you're dreaming. Furthermore, resolve that you will see your friend again, and that the next time you do, you will become lucid.

Missed dreamsigns are stepping stones across the river of forgetfulness to lucidity. But only if you use them as such; only if you decide with complete conviction that you won't get fooled again. Of course, you will. To err is human, but why not learn to err less and less?

I am also new to this forum, and I have to thank all of you for helping me out along the way. I have had two Ld's since beginning about a month ago. The second was with the use of a nova dreamer. One thing I did that I found helpful was after the first Ld, I made a list in my dream journal of "things to do while Ld" with a spot for "completion date". By having these goals, it made a nice little gateway for the next dream, which was great! One thing I did in my second dream was tell people, "this is my dream, get out." and I clapped my hands and they were gone. I am not an expert, but I think this helped keep me knowing I was dreaming and in control. I also thought, I wish I could do this in real life. ;) I was wondering from those of you who have been into this for awhile and have done some mastering, what can I do to help my progress into more dreams? After the first two I just can't wait to go to sleep to see what happens. I WANT MORE! Also, I have heard once that you can enter other people's dreams and take them flying or whatever. Is this true?

Hey Frank.... Like I said, the second one (out of a total of two so I am by far NOT an expert) was with a mask. I had lots of problems starting too. Either woke me up, or didn't wake me up ect. I used a cd with headphones with it. Like a hemisync or TRV cd. Seemed to put my body to sleep and kept my subconscience awake. The first nite, when the red lights flashed, I saw such a brilant aray of white light, like halogens, I actually squinted it was so bright. The second time, was the same nite, I almost yelled at my husband for turning the bedroom lights on. Give that a try, and don't give up on the mask!!!

Hi Kallery Thanks for the tips, Perhaps I am trying too hard to get to sleep, and trying too hard to have a lucid dream. I will give what you said about trying a cd with headphones, it might work. What I have noticed about sleeping with the mask is that although not quite lucid I can remember my dreams, far more so than if I had not used the mask. I have yet to have a lucid dream, I think I am close but not close enough,or am not letting go enough to become lucid, only time will tell. Happy dreaming. Frank

Hi everyone!

Had many LDs in January.....thought I'd cracked it again...............

But the dry spell came in February to compensate!

But a few nights ago remembered a task I've posted about here before.

False awakening, went down to kitchen. Took large sharp carving knife, held out my left arm and cut through it with the knife. Some black sticky looking liquid appeared on my pyjamas at the cut site, but my arm did not fall off, unlike when I cut off my fingers. Tried again and tried to pull my left arm off with my right hand but my left arm just elongated.

Next time I'm going to try to lay my arm on a table and cut through it with a dinner plate and then pull my torso away from the plate to leave my arm on the table.

I'm confident that I'll be able to regenerate lost arms as I can my fingers.

Then I'm going to try to stick the spare arms on my shoulders. I think it's a very interesting experiment to see if my brain can work 4 arms.

Anyway anyone got ideas for tasks that will clearly indicate to me that my brain can operate the arms. I though that perhaps I could put two plates in front of me, one near, one further away, and put a raw potato on each and see if I can operate a knife and fork indepently and on each potato with the inside and outside pair of arms?!

Owen

PS I say raw potato, because I wouldn't have time to cook the potato in an LD and the microwave wouldn't work

Hi Owen, how about playing two different pieces of music on one and the same piano? I wonder though from where your apparent fascination with experimental self mutilation stems from...Edwin.

Hi Edwin,

...my fascination with self mutilation.... Perhaps it's because I have a deep subconscious feeling of insecurity and self loathing and I want to hurt myself.....I've always had this particular suspicion about lucid dreamers.

Alternatively, perhaps I'm just going through a list of challenging tasks that I want to complete while lucid.

Your suggestion is good but difficult.

Owen

Thanks for the unrestricted insight into your subconsciousness; as long as you keep it deeply buried in that place it shouldn't hurt you or any one else, wouldn't it? As an on and off LD-er, I cannot easily identify myself with your suspicion. As for my piano suggestion; for someone who can envision dismemberment of both his arms and succesfull re-attachment to his body in addition to the additional original pair of arms, playing two different tunes in the same time should not be an insurmountable task. Let us know when your mission is completed? Trying to dream of more pleasant things, best,Edwin.

Speaking of mirrors and duplicate selves--an image I find fascinating and kinda freaky--I had a similar dream about a mirror. Which is in itself strange, because I cannot see. Well, anyway, I was feeling this full-length mirror and thought one of my fave Star Trek characters was behind it, so I started flirting with whoever might be behind it. Mind you, the mirror was firmly attached to the wall. I said "I love you" to the mirror, and a duplicate self emerged from the glass and said "Well, you're kinda cute yourself." When I asked the identity of the person from the mirror, she said, 'I'm you, of course." After that, it turned into a sexual encounter. Me with myself. Hmmm, ...Shades of Narcissus?

Hello all!

I have only once seen a 'clone' of myself in my dreams, I had become lucid (pretty low level) and was at the front doors of my workplace. I saw myself leaving the building and I thought it was cool at the time because he was wearing the clothes that I consider my 'residual self image' clothes to use a term from the Matrix, when I am wearing those clothes in real life I always feel most comfortable and thought they would be how I would look in a dream - I never remember to look at myself in LDs but this experience showed me that I was right.

For some reason I knew this character was called Mr White even though no one said anything. He (I? ) just walked past me and said nothing. I entered the building briefly and said hi to a few friends but as I left the building the sky got really bright and woke me up.

I would really like to try some mirror experiments sometime especially since the intention to see a mirror in a dream is likely to cause a dream sign because they are so unreliable!

I wonder if the other version of you would answer questions in exactly the manner you expect? If they didn't wouldn't it be kinda freaky?

Hey, this is my first posting on the Forum, but I have been reading the archives for a while.

Joy, I don't know if you're still checking up on this thread (it's a bit old now), but as I've been reading this thread I've been dying to give you my theory as to why visualization in dreams is easier than in real life.

My theory is that, when we're dreaming, we have great access to tacit memory. When dreaming, we can draw from this resource to construct detailed images. In waking life, it's like you usually only have a blueprint idea of what something looks like; there's not many details. However, when dreaming, it's like you have all of the pieces of the puzzle along with the blueprint which lets the pieces just fall into piece.

Plus, when you're awake, you have competing sensory input to deal with (even with your eyes closed, you're "seeing" black). When you're dreaming, your brain ignores sensory input for the most part.

Now I've said my peace. I hope that it is enlightening. And I look forward to contribute more to the Forum.

~Justin

Justin, I'm a new member, too, and I just happened to read this post of yours while looking through the forum's recent postings. It was like deja vu, because I was reflecting on this very thought just yesterday while thinking about my own shortcomings with regard to clear waking visualization skills. You said it almost the same way I said it to myself. Freaky, but cool.

I was thinking, along the same lines, that when I'm awake and I try to visualize an object, I "see" it but I don't, not in the same way I can see with my physical eyes. I can imagine hearing a sound, and I "hear" it, but not really. It's kind of an approximation in both cases. But when I'm dreaming, the visualization is every bit as solid and real, without using my eyes, as seeing is when I'm awake. The whole concept is mind boggling to me, especially when you add the delicious fact that you can touch and feel objects in your dreams that are every bit as solid and hefty as in RL, and yet an instant later you can literally walk through it.

I Love Lucid Dreams!

George Robertson

First, a warm welcome to George and Justin and to all new members of our Forum. We look forward to your questions, comments and lucid dream accounts! ;)

And to all, if you've not already read these, I highly recommend the following articles:

"Smooth Tracking Eye-Movements Discriminate Both Dreaming and Perception from Imagination", by Stephen LaBerge and Phil Zimbardo, presented at the Toward a Science of Consciousness Conference IV, Tucson, April 10, 2000. The article describes a visual eye movement tracking experiment designed to compare dreaming, perception, and imagination carried out analogously in all three states. http://lucidity.com/Tucson2000abs.html

"Varieties of Lucid Dreaming Experience" by Stephen LaBerge * and Donald J. DeGracia. http://www.lucidity.com/VOLDE.html

An excerpt from the introduction to this fascinating article reads as follows: The range of subjective experiences reported to occur during dreaming appears wider and more variable than those typical of waking. In this chapter we will focus on the nature of experience in lucid dreams. We begin by showing that lucidity in dreams is not a discrete phenomenon, but that reflective consciousness exists in all dreams and can be measured on a continuum with "lucidity" and "non-lucidity" representing two ends of the spectrum. The remainder of the chapter will explore the substantial individual variation in lucid dreams, illustrated with examples derived from the authors" experiences. The discussion will focus on two primary themes: the role played by belief systems and learning in shaping lucid dream experiences, and the role played by factors which appear to be independent of the dreamer's beliefs and learning.

Lucid dreamers do have more fun! Keelin

Justin and George,

Welcome to the forum. Your participation is greatly appreciated. And you have addressed a fascinating question. I have also wondered why I can't create a dream scene right in front of me when I'm awake, as I can in a dream.

I think of the brain as essentially doing the same thing in a dream as it does when awake, namely making its best guess about what is really "out there". Its guess is then projected over the real deal, as it were, in 3D living color.

Apparently there's something about having access to the senses that shuts down the ability to project a dreamlike scene over the real world when we're awake. Obviously this has to happen or we would be unlikely to survive the dangers of the real world, constantly hallucinating as we would be. That ability is disinhibited when we're dreaming, I think, because the sensory processing mechanism is off.

Visualization awake is more like imagination. Stephen's research has shown that dreaming and imagining are likely two completely different mechanisms. Dreams are not just a form of imagination.

I'm a terrible visualizer, myself. My "mind's eye" is nearly blind. I have really detailed LD's, however.

Thanks for posting

Paul

The way I see it (and a massive over simplification - but it helps) Is that our perceived word - be it dreaming or waking, is the same as an image on a TV screen... it's a representation. Whilst awake it is as if our TV set is picking up the signal from a real-time-camera, whilst dreaming it is running from DVD. All we ever experience is what we see on this "TV", that's as "real" as it ever gets for us.

Our perception as to the "realness" is always judged on the image we see on the TV screen - so be it dreaming or waking the qualitative experience is essentially identical, however the source of the image (which we normally never question) is vastly different.

Obviously the TV represents our mental model of the world, the camera our senses and the DVD player our memory.

I also believe our mind is dreaming 24 hours a day - if we consider the "best guess" (as Paul puts it so well) that the brain is making every moment to be the same process as dreaming.

So perhaps when we are dreaming and trying to become lucid we should try and consider the possibility that we are not "entering some unusual state of mind" - because we are not, we are doing exactly what our minds do best - making models (in the exact same way it is right now.) What we are experiencing a is simply a new source of input for our models. I find thinking like this helps greatly because it takes the esoteric struggle out of the equation... we are not grasping at something we do not understand, some esoteric mystery - we are learning to recognize shifts in something that is as personal and familiar as it gets... our own mental universe, that same universe that you are sitting in right now - you are simply trying to work out the source of your model.

So give this a try... next time you are questioning your reality, when you are asking yourself "is this a dream?" try and ask also "where is the source of this experience?" Maybe it'll help... it's certainly mind boggling and a lot of fun.

Best dreams,

Daniel

Very Good explanation Dan..I always like to hear your Ideas..You are also right about this being a massive over simplification as an explanation..There are amazing good things that the human mind is capable off that may be never explaned at least in our lifetimes..Lucid dreaming as I see It Is more a tool than a toy and I read much of Edgar Cayce [[The sleeping Prophet]] his books on the subject of dreams and he realy amazes me..When he talks of how the subconscous holds all memorys and general information in ones lifetime including [ALL DREAMS... As I relax [near sleep] I sometimes sense my conscous drifting very close to the subconscous and tap into an actual dream as its unfolding for a few seconds which makes me consider the[ posability] that we may indeed dream 24 hours a day? But If that was true how do we clasify those kind of dreams to the ones we usualy remember during longer REM periods? Is there any diference? Also the soul mind conection is a concept that some folks just cannot tolerate!! I hope there is MUCH MORE to the human race than a planet inhabited by millions of organic creatures who feed on each other with limited [monkey brain intelegence] and then when the life clock stops so does their existance? For some of us our quest for lucidity may explain a lot about what we value in life.. and how we see the physical world.. It seems the more we dive into dreams the more mysterious they become but mystery is also a part of life I guess..Keep on the lucid quest..cheers to all..Tom

Hey Dan..Are you still teaching LDing? HYave you invented any other methods since the [cat] method.?..Tom

Hi Tom,

Yes I am still teaching LDing when I can - I can't imagine myself ever finding any other subject as captivating!!

As for new techniques, I have a few things - many are mostly variations on techniques that already exist but I've a couple of things I'm playing around with that certainly seem to work rather well (for myself at least" I'll share then when they are a little more finely tuned) It's been a while since I've visited the forum so I can't remember exactly what I've posted on this so far. I've had a reasonable amount of feedback on the CAT method and it certainly seems that my own experiences with the technique have been collaborated by others... would be nice to get a bit of real DATA on the effectiveness of the method but I'm not in a position to gather this...perhaps the Lucidity Institute would like to take up the challenge??? ;-)

My real passion at the moment is trying to develeop a powerful WILD inducing technique" I'll keep you posted on how I get on with this. How are things for yourself?

Dan, I liked your description, and I most certainly see it the same way. Unlike Tom and others, I don't put a metaphysical construction on dreaming, lucid or otherwise, or any altered state of consciousness. To me it's physiology, and if it seems mysterious, it's because we haven't yet discovered the underlying mechanisms. The tendency of humanity when something is not understood is to invoke magic. It has always been that way and probably always will be, until we have all the answers. Of course, some still prefer the magical even when the scientific explanations are available and well known.

I also see the mind as dreaming 24/7, except in the deepest phases of sleep when most brain activity is off. And as you say, only the origin of the video changes between dreams and awake.

I am curious about the mechanism that inhibits one source or the other. Imagine if we had conscious control, as in a lucid dream, to change channels while awake (without taking hallucinogens, that is.)

"Nope, I don't like this reality, let's have an alpine setting and a cozy chalet, please. And throw in a couple of snow bunnies..."

I'm not that familiar with sensory deprivation experiments, but I've heard something like that can actually occur, although I'm not sure how much conscious control the subject has over choice of reality. Anybody know?

Dreamily,

Paul

Paul.. your right that we havent yet discovered the underlying mechanisms because we are only human beings..There are things that we humans will never know in a hundred life times..I know that spiritual and soul related issues dont mix very well with pencil and notebook science and I try to keep it out of forum discussions..But I do respect the the late Edgar Cayce for his wisdom and ability to mix proven scientific fact [[as the human mind sees it]] with spiritual science and wisdom and his specialty was dreams .He believed in a conscience and a subconscience and a superconscience.. where all records are stored.. .Kinda like the [[Akashic records dept]] This man was respected by his friend [Dr.Jung] and widely respected in the world We all have the right to believe in what we choose.. Im sure many people on this forum have higher educations than others do.. but that shouldnt stop one from expressing what they believe in... I respect science but other things just take faith..You are a very educated man Paul and we love to hear your Ideas..cheers..Tom