Hey, Kate and Barbara, re: your conversation a while back: I just got a great idea for a painting from a dream night-before-last, and then I remembered something similar happened a few weeks ago as well. In both very vivid dreams I was looking at a wonderful drawing or painting someone else had made and wishing I myself had done it; happy to realize I was dreaming and still had a chance to do so! I never will if I spend all my time in this forum, though, so I'm going to get to work on some more tangible creative projects; see you all later, and thanks for the inspiration,

Joy

Does anyone else sketch images from their dreams? I don't do it all the time, just when there are things to illustrate.

I just ask because I thought it might be fun to share these sketches on a board somewhere.

Barbara :-))

Hi Joy. Hope you'll share a picture of this dream painting when you get it done :-) I'd really like to have a look.

I remember once in a dream many many years ago there was this neat sci-fi fantasy like painting of a black dragon that I was admiring. I didn't try to paint it because I am not that good at rendering fantasy creatures. I have to have models or other paintings to work from.

:-))

Hi Kate, here is a link to a page where I have loaded one sketch, there will be more later. I don't want to put too many there because I don't want my artwork copied and used elsewhere.

http://www.geocities.com/blackmarmalade/index.html

You'll have to copy and paste because I am unable to get any HTML to work in this message. I must be doing it wrong :-)

:-))

Hi, Barbara - I'll try to remember to share it when it's done - it might be years from now! - I'm very slow at painting.

I like your Sherlock picture,

Joy

Hi, Barbara and Joy

I sometimes paint pictures from my dreams. I have a nice, mandala like painting of a pre -lucid dream, that happened in the phase, when I was on the way to my first LD after years. I did a meditation on that dream afterwards and while meditating saw this picture. For me, it takes some time, to paint, too. Although I very like it. There are simply too many wonderful things in this world to enjoy in one life. Maybe because of this we reincarnate ;->.

Ralf

Thanks for sending the painting - I much enjoyed seeing it! Maybe Barbara will post it.

I'm going to be gone for a couple days, I think -

dream on -

Joy

Hi Kate, Joy and Ralf. And everyone else too :-) Ralf-Thanks for sharing your artwork via email.

Keelin emailed me saying she'd look into if we can post pictures on the message board or not. I asked her about if we could have another section where we could post our dream art.

If we do get that section, then I suggest that we resize images. That is what I did to my scan on the web page. This way you don't have to scroll to get a complete view and it won't be slow to load. You could then put a link to a larger picture if you want.

Well, that is it. Haven't been lucid for a long time. Only now starting to have dreams that are vivid enough for me to recall even when not paying attention.

:-))

New picture at web page. I like the ears. www.geocities.com/blackmarmalade/index.html

Dear Barbara and Dream-Inspired Artists,

Creating art from your lucid dreams (be it imagery, music, poetry, dance, sculpture, etc.) is a wonderful way to encourage personal lucid dreaming. And sharing your artworks can be inspirational to others as well. I'm looking forward to viewing your various creations, however, due to the fact that we are limited in the amount of space allotted for our discussion site, we ask that, rather than presenting it on the Forum, you post a link to your personal website. That way, those interested can access it easily and the maximum space will remain available for discussion.

Wishing you wildly inspiring lucid dreams, Keelin

PS: If you haven't already seen the film "Akira Kurosawa's Dreams", I'd highly recommend it. The entire film (several episodes based on the director's personal dreams) is quite wonderful, and there is one segment that portrays an artist's encounter with Van Gogh. The scene where he wanders through a painting by the master is one of my favorites. I believe the film is available at most video outlets.

Howdy all. Just thought I'd post and let you know that I have started a place on the web for those of us who want to share our dream paintings and sketchings.

http://www.geocities.com/blackmarmalade/Dreamscans/main.html

I haven't been able to scan any from my dream journal yet because my scanner needs a new AC adapter and the manufacturer is taking their own sweet time in mailing it to me.

Ralph's painting is there right now along with a description.

All forms of art are welcome from paintings, crayons, pencil sketching, even quilts and rugs that were inspired from a dream. Heck why not? Any musician's out there? Send in sound files of your dream music.

Lucidity to all and to all a good night Barbara :-))

Oh, and why not poetry too? Or short stories that were inspired by dreams? Send them too. But regular dream reports can remain here because I don't have but a certain amount of space :-)

:-))

Hi, everyone! I finally got lucid again! I'm pretty happy about it, or I would be if not upset by something at work. Anyway, I posted it on the post lucids miscellaneous site, although it was too short to be of interest in itself. I had wanted to show a couple of paintings on Barbara's site but they are not specifically from dreams. Would this still be okay? I'd like to paint my "normally" cat - if that gets done I'll send that. Enjoyed Ralf's picture, and really like Barbara's idea of sharing our dream creations of whatever medium and the offer of her website. This thing where I am upset about work - I feel like I might as well forget lucidity because I'm too disturbed. I know this probably gets very much in the way of lucidity, and that unless we are xperts at acheiving serenity, there's always going to be something on our minds to get in the way. If nothing else, there's the war and all it's ramifications. Does anyone have any thoughts to share about not letting emotional things hamper our lucid abilities? Thanks, Kate

Hi Joy. Not sure what you mean by

Isn't it interesting that we can dream an image with a level of detail and realism that's beyond the power of our minds to reproduce when awake? And yet we attribute dreams to our independent minds, and balk at the idea that consensual reality could be a creation of our collective awareness....

First, Imagining something even while awake is easier than transfering that something to paper or canvas. Even when we have a modle what we are looking at and what comes out on canvas can be less than perfect, unless you do like Boris Valejo and actually pose people, light them like you want the light in the painting and then tracing the picture onto a canvas rather than doing it freehanded.

And dreams are made by our own minds. Reality is a place we share with other people and thus made up by these people and all our differences and wants and needs and perseptions about what we think reality is or what it should be.

I think I am at fault for getting this board off topic. Sorry :-))

I'll think of a fun thing to do in a LD and post it. Might try an idea tonight.

:-))

Hey, Ralf - thanks, I enjoyed seeing your website - especially "Astrid and the Penguins"!

Also thanks for your comments on my thoughts about the realism of dream imagery. I do think you knew what I meant. Let me see if I can expand a little more on what I tried to encapsulate before.

My dreams and my drawings, both, are hyper-realistic. I do scientific illustration for pay, and on my own time I do surrealistic dream-like images. When drawing or painting, my hand is pretty good at rendering what my eyes are seeing. But, see, my eye has to see an object or photograph in order for my hand to render it with the level of realism I want.

Say I want to draw my left hand: can I visualize it well enough? No! I need to look at my left hand to draw it accurately. And yet, in a dream, I can look at my left hand and see it just fine. In both cases - visualization and dream - it's my mind that forms the image; but my waking mind can't do what my dreaming mind can do.

When I'm creating something in a lucid dream, I visualize it until my visualization suddenly takes on a much greater clarity and realism. That's when I know I've succeeded. When I'm visualizing something while falling asleep and the same thing happens, that's when I know I'm dreaming.

No big deal so far, right? Everyone pretty much agrees that the dreaming mind has unusual creative powers.

Now here's the tie-in with physical reality. I was thinking about all this while hiking in a boulder field at the top of a cliff. My feet were crunching on physical sand, I could hit a boulder with my hand - thump, thump! - and I wasn't about to fly off the cliff. Reality seemed exceedingly real. And yet we have everything from ancient spiritual traditions to modern particle physics suggesting that the physical world is somehow a product of awareness - a creation of our minds.

We humans tend to accept the limits of our human perception. Even knowing that honeybees can see ultraviolet, pigeons and sea turtles can sense magnetic fields, and dogs and elephants can hear at higher and lower frequencies respectively than we, our tendency is to complacently regard our "reality" as all there is - and furthermore to take it as pre-formed, immutable, and existing quite independently of whether our senses sense it or not. It's a big leap of faith for me to thump on a boulder and consider that some process of mind or awareness might create it. It's so much more REAL than anything I could think up!

But on the other hand, I'm comfortable enough with the observation that my dreaming mind can create something more real than anything I could think up.

So why not cautiously, tentatively, curiously extend that notion to physical reality?

Now, as the term "consensual reality" implies, those of us who play around with these ideas tend to concur that - since you and I can thump on the same boulder and get the same effect - if mind or awareness is creating the physical world, it's a process of collective mind or singular, all-encompassing awareness. This is more acceptable, more comfortable to grasp, than the notion that my own puny mind could create all this on its own. How about the dreaming mind: is it working independently? I think not, because I have telepathic dreams just often enough to remind me that we're linked in ways we can't very well explain - except maybe in terms of that singular awareness.

Okay - that's my essay for today! Now for Barbara's suggestion that we return this discussion to its original topic of "fun things to do while lucid" (I think overturning my concept of reality is the funnest thing, but that might be a minority view!) -

A couple nights ago, while flying, I landed in a tall pine tree. Last night I landed in a big oak. As I was coming in for a landing I saw that the branches big enough to support me were toward the center of the tree and I'd have to maneuver through smaller ones, but then I decided to go ahead and grab onto a smaller branch and let it bend and lower me to the ground. This gave me the idea after I woke up: wouldn't it be fun to climb trees and get to all the higher, further-out branches we couldn't reach when we were kids?

Pleasant dreams!

Joy

Hi, everyone. Joy - thanks for directing me to post of S Berlin. I sure hope my mind is shifting to a way that will cause easy lucidity. I do practice transforming things in waking life, and it's fun! I tried to transform a couple of guys tooling along in a golf cart into big fish driving along, try to make birds talk to me, try to touch the moon to see what it feels like, and just in general things like that. And I think it's paying off, because in my last brief ld, I immediately started transforming things, which I think anchored me. I awoke only because of physical factors. Your remark re some dreamers' wonderful visions which they are unable to reproduce in waking life: Are you saying that we should consider that the dreamer alone is not responsible for the vision, and that our collective unconscious comes into play at these times? That is a fascinating topic! I think of it when I get those hypnogogic images. When my abilities improve, maybe we could do some experiements re this. I think you already do this with your Maui group dreaming? Or is that something different? Anyway, to Barbara also- I can't paint or draw from my head - always have to have something in front of me. I actully am hoping that more facility with ld's will enable me to just paint some vision or idea freehand. The thing is, I will have to like the work for whatever it is, instead of trying for an accuracy I can't produce. I'm finding it's more the heart of what attracted me to the subject that comes throgh the work, as opposed to a need for an accurate rendering of every detail. Also, Barbara, you mentioned hearing a song in your dream and then realizing you actually had made it up. Hearing music in dreams is so haunting. There is an old conversation re this that I wanted to direct you to, but can't find it now. But Keelin was in it, so she maybe could help if you're interested. I think you'd like reading it. To Ralf - Actually, my concern about the emotional thing is that I fear a lack of serenity blocks my ability to ld. And you have a point - if I do get lucid while dreaming about some problem, there would be a great opportunity for growth. And perhaps it would take courage. I liked SLB's dream in his book where a wise man actually spoke the words he needed to hear. I believe that Joy was saying the same thing as you: use lucidity to get the most out of whatever is going on. I imagine it's all a matter of practice and intent. Thanks for all the input, and have excellent dreams, Kate

Ah, I think I understand...But, I don't beleive that my dreams are created by a collective conciousness. That means, my dreams realistic or not are my own creation. Also, being able,like I said before, to vividly imagine something is different from actually using your physical body to try to paint it. Like if you can paint very realistic stuff in dreams, it is still just an imagination. You are not having to control real muscles or consentrate like you do in dreams when you are trying to produce something on canvas in reality. Dream practice might enhance real life stuff like painting technique and guitar playing, but you still have to practice. You don't wake up a van goh. And I wouldn't want to because I don't like his work :-) At any rate. I am an independant person and I would rather not share a collective consiousness in dreams or anywhere else even if it were possible. What I dream is made up by me not by some telepathic collective conciousness nonsense. If we do share any simularities in what we dream or do, example both being interested in the same tv program, it is not because we are telepathicaly linked or are all one great brain. It is because we're all people and share the same physiology. Therefore we are going to act alike and think alike in some ways and not in others.

Whatever.

:-))

Strange- I actually didn't see Joy's 11.11 post before posting myself today. The last thing I recalled was Ralf's post. Anyway, I guess I'm pretty much open to the idea of a collective unconscious, or our dreams being totally our own creations, or some combination. I must do much more reading on a number of topics, I think. I read a lot of fiction and there's only so much time. Either way, I think that when next lucid, I will try to focus on some image that intrigues me and just render it as best I can. I'll bet we could bring things back from our dreaming minds such as imagery and music if we tried hard enough. Even when napping today and starting to drift off I started to hear music, and tried to figure out if I'd heard it before or made it up. Barbara - I will check out your site for the poetry. JOy's idea about climbing places we couldn't as children gives me another idea - which is just to think about childhood stuff before drifting off. That might put me in a mindset very conducive to good dreams and a more free recall.

Barbara - Now I remember where I saw that conversation about hearing dream music. It was Applications of Lucid Dreaming, then Problem Solving. I'm still using my nova dreamer, although not every night. A couple of times when I left it on and it was just sitting there by itself, it started going off. I don't know what that means, unless some change in light affected it. Happy lights, Kate

Joy

thanks again for your thoughtful posting.

"And yet we have everything from ancient spiritual traditions to modern particle physics suggesting that the physical world is somehow a product of awareness - a creation of our minds." Hm. I know this concepts. But until know, I haven't gone that far. I still cling to: There is a reality, but we can't perceive it appropriate. We make up models to represent certain aspects. Our illusion is, that we take these models as the real world. I'll give you an example: Three beings meet near a cliff. A fly, a frog and a man. The fly sits on a flower, flies a little (like flies use to), sits down again. The fly perceives tasty pollen at her "feet". There are no movements detectable, no danger. A frog sits nearby. He only perceives moving things, like this tasty looking black spot, that sometimes appears over his head, just close enough to have a try. A man comes, just hiking along, thinking on some perception problems. The fly perceives his or her movements and leaps into the air. The frog perceives the moving tasty black point and hurtles his tongue, catches the fly, but doesn't engulf it, because the man - in his thoughts - steps on the frog, who's attention has just been distracted by catching the fly, he didn't perceive the man coming. The man perceives this strange sound and feeling of this step looks back down and perceives the flat frog. Full of sorrow he kneels down there, watches the dying frog and thinks about the vanity of existence. Somewhat distracted he doesn't notice this strange sound coming from the cliff above him. A huge rock falls down and kills the man, the frog and the fly. All three perceive the world different. Have their own models. But their lives take place in the same world, finally all three are smashed by the same rock, that wasn't part of their "worldview" or "individual reality" at that time. I don't know, what the rock perceived... Ugly story, isn't it? I only wanted to try and illustrate the difference between reality and perception, how I see it. The particle physicists certainly create, what they are looking for, and then prove, that it is there.

Kate

"I think you already do this with your Maui group dreaming?" This is an experiment on mutual dreaming, you could say, telepathic dreaming.

Barbara

"It is because we're all people and share the same physiology."

Yep! That is one aspect or basis of what Jung called "Archetypes" or "collective unconscious" (I don't know, if I translate Jung's German term correct). I know, it is not easy. I think it is not, that we are one brain. If I read your words, it sounds like: "Help, I'm buried by a huge brain pudding!" Excuse me, I found the image somewhat funny. I don't want to go deep into the ESP thing. One thing I can tell you: I works. Another thing: It rarely works (for me). It is not only, that I've experienced it, but research has detected rather good prove. I'll give you the resources, if you want. But the whole subject isn't simple, but complex.

If there were such scientific proof of such phenomena then the 1 million dollar prize that Randy, I think his name is, the macigian is willing to give for such proof would be out of his bank account by now.

All I am going to say, and then I quit this topic, is that a rock is a rock and the rock is real. We exsist in a real world no matter how we choose to perceive it. Put a sleeping man infront of a bus who has no idea at all that you are putting him infront of a bus, or intend to do at any point, and he still will get badly injured or killed when hit by it. I make the note of a sleeping man because that way he wouldn't be able to know that the bus was coming and therefore you couldn't argue that he got hurt or died because he beleived he would.

End of my involvement. :-))

Barbara and all,

I might think it was nonsense too if I hadn't experienced it myself. I'm fairly strict with myself in distinguishing dream telepathy or precognition from coincidence or shared influences, and demand a high level of corresponding detail (I went on about this at length somewhere else in this forum). I could tell you stories (I will, too, with any encouragement) but my empirical evidence would be your anecdotal evidence, which to us science-minded people is worthless except insofar as it suggests a testable hypothesis.

Ralf, I'd like to see the resources you mention. All I've seen is that "Last Supper" example that seems to keep getting dusted off and brought out - a good example but surely there must be more! I would love to see some more good, formal, well-designed and well-conducted research on this. Since finding my frequency of telepathic/precognitive dreams - though still rare - increasing along with frequency of lucid dreams, I'm hoping Stephen LaBerge will look for links between lucidity and psi effects - and when I inquired via e-mail he told me he was planning something along these lines, so let's look forward to that and consider participating if he can make use of volunteers like us.

The Maui experiment sounds like fun. I'm not one of the Maui dreamers - I haven't gone to any of Stephen's seminars or used his devices or read his books - I'm the heathen in your midst. I am, however, a very enthusiastic participant in his sleep position experiment and, along with haranguing him about details of the experimental design, have been doing my best to make up for being a pest by recruiting more volunteers - so, dreamers, do your patriotic duty, contribute to the effort to separate myth from practical method, and maybe increase your rate of lucidity in the process (I did)! The deadline for data has been moved forward to 31 December. You can find the info at the Lucidity home page.

Ralf - I like your story about fly, frog, man and rock - an excellent illustration of how everyone's limited, everyday awareness is circumscribed by their range of perceptions!

Joy

My good friend Dean has 3 interesting essays that address this topic, including rock awareness, on the "Prose" page of his website:

http://www.highstrungmusic.com/

• and I see adastra made some related remarks elsewhere in the forum today -

Joy to all

Barbara, Joy and fellow dreamers

"We exist in a real world no matter how we choose to perceive it."

That is what I think, too. At least for the first part of the sentence. But the question is how and what we perceive and which ways of interaction we are able to choose. An important role plays our world model and the very, very, very huge amount of tacit assumptions we make to somehow create a unified (with no holes) perception. Our perception is made up! That means, too, that most of this process of making up is hidden, we can't perceive the process of perception, while it is ongoing, so what remains, is that we take for certain, that the model is the world and that "objects" of perception actually exist in exactly the way, we perceive them. That is certainly NOT the case! What we do is to make up good guesses about what is going on. That is perception. And large parts of perception are involuntary, so we don't really have a choice, how to perceive. In dreams and sometimes in waking life one can detect the flaws in perception. If I look at some LD, especially WILDs, I see, how a whole world is made up, built around a seed. In one of my last LDs it have been some letters, that were the seeds that started the crystallisation of the dream scene. It is a good lesson to perceive this. It is a good example regarding the abilities of brain/mind to create whole worlds. Of course there is a difference, in daytime we have the intensive feedback between model and reality, that is why dreams are more unstable, morphing. But this says nothing about the reality of perceptions in dreams. Presume a minimal flow of information from "outside" into the dreaming mind - neglecting the sources in this case, I think it is not too far off to do so, and there you have your reality again, but a different mode to perceive it. And it depends on your point of view: Is your brain's memory a reality, part of reality? Isn't dreaming then a perception of reality? I think we have to take a careful look on the subject of perception, don't we? You see, how models of perception depend on world views. What then is reality, if we can't perceive it adequate? Are we really able to say what it is, what it isn't?

The Maui - Experiment: I often thought about opening this one for all forum members, even for heathens. I'm surprised, that Stephen's thoughts go in this direction. Good. Perhaps we'll have a greater, better controlled experiment in the future. Now we have this. I found the boulder quote. Nice text. I like these sub atomic / quantum physics paradoxes.

Another fun part of LD may really be, that it has the power to change your mind.

Ralf

Hi Barbara,

Thank you so much for offering to host our member's dream-related artistic expressions! Waking life has been a bit overwhelming lately and kept me from responding to the Forum as often as I'd like. (Where would I be without those free lucid dream vacations?) When I get another moment, I'll send you a couple of lucid dream-inspired poems to share.

Sweet dreams to all, Keelin

Hi Barbara,

If you post the link to your personal site for dream-inspired art under the topics "Open Conversation" and "Miscellaneous", you might reach a broader audience. Some LI Forum members elect email notification of posts to only certain topics and may have missed your earlier announcement under the "Applications..." topic.

Sweet dream inspirations! Keelin

Greeetings, Oneironauts!

Before sharing some thoughts on a few contributions posted under this particular topic, I'd like to express heartfelt thanks to all who have been contributing to the lively conversations and thoughtful commentary throughout the Forum. It's exciting to see our discussion site continue to blossom! Also, a warm welcome to all who have recently joined us here -- and that includes our silent members as well.

Hi Kate: Regarding your question about the relationship between (stressful) emotions and our ability to be lucid, I would agree with the comments of Joy and Ralf. If we learn to recognize that emotionally provocative occasions (as frustrating, infuriating or confounding as they may be) actually provide opportunities to practice "lucid living", we stand to gain much in the way of personal growth and flexibility in problem solving skills. I appreciate your offering the example of your mood of the moment as it's a perfect illustration of how easy it is to get swept up in the drama of circumstance and how that can result in our feeling overwhelmed and powerless.

It's important to remember that lucidity is simply awareness, whether we are awake or adream, and that regardless of realm, we can never have complete control over our environment or the "characters" around us. What we can control, however, is how we respond to that environment and to our companions. In other words, when it comes to response, we never lose our power to choose!

Realization of this fact can be very empowering as it leads to understanding that we have the choice of contributing either serenity or chaos to any given situation. And when we live with this type of awareness, we can't help but acknowledge our participation and responsibility as co-creators of this dream we call waking life. It's also easy to see how this philosophy can have a direct and profound effect on our sense of compassion.

Consider what might happen if, instead of saying, "I might as well forget about lucidity because I'm too disturbed", you rephrased your expression to something like, "This situation is disturbing to me, so what is the best (most mindful, heartful, facilitating) response I can make at this point?"

Easier said than done, of course, and I'll admit I find myself, more often than not, a common creature of mindless habit. Yet in those rare moments when I've managed to free myself from the unconscious undertow of habitual reaction, I feel the same sweet rush as I've experienced at the onset of lucidity in a dream -- because that's what I'm experiencing: Awareness!

Situations that push our emotional buttons are common in both waking and dreaming, which means we have lots of opportunities to feel the nudge to "go lucid". And even when we miss or ignore those nudges (in either realm), it's still possible to learn from the experience. By reviewing these situations (in a becalmed mood), we can mentally rehearse how we'd prefer to handle the next challenging occasion.

Thanks again for bringing up this subject, Kate. I'd enjoy reading how others feel on this topic, as well as the various ways in which they may apply lucidity in waking life.

Hi Joy: In your post of November 11, you write, "When I'm visualizing something while falling asleep and the same thing happens, that's when I know I'm dreaming".

Are you referring to WILD (wake induced lucid dreams)? Or do you mean that what you visualized prior to sleep appears in the dream and acts as a dream sign, cueing lucidity?

Again, to Kate: In reference to the NovaDreamer, you wrote, "A couple of times when I left it on and it was just sitting there by itself, it started going off. I don't know what that means..." Perhaps we should consider it evidence that the Universe is dreaming! ;-> All teasing aside, it's best to keep the ND turned "off" and in a dark place when not in use. Even in the "off" mode, there is still a drain on the batteries as the ND continues to hold assigned settings and recorded data.

Sweet lucid dreams to all, Keelin

Hi, Keelin - referring to WILD - visualizing something that takes on an awesome realism, as the dream state commences.

Lots to tell but I want to go to bed early and get up to watch the Leonids! - and still have time to dream!

More tomorrow,

Joy

experiment

Hi, everyone! I actually wrote something yesterday morning, but just as I went to post it, the site went down. So from now on I'm wiriting in word and then pasting. Joy ' I was pleased to read that I appear to have shown up in your dream, with Barbara. I enjoy reading your dreams, and plan to set aside more time to just read postings in a relaxed way. I think I'll get more out of it that way. I'll never forget how the first day I read stuff on the forum, I had a long ld that night. I need to bring that influence back. I'm glad you like the normally cat ' I plan to use my one cat Bubba for a model and start work on a painting this weekend. Ralf ' thanks for your input on "The Permeable Membrane.' I will concentrate on merging the waking world with the subconscious one throughout the day. My weak point is all the time I spend at work scheduling people on the phone, which necessitates my mentally being there. But it will be a fun challenge to still do my merging mindset while pursuing my job. Also, I need to take breaks and go outside more often, and MORE REALITY CHECKS. I've started asking things like birds, trees and strangers if I'm dreaming, but usually not out loud. But anything helps, I'm sure. I check text all the time, but again, I must do more while actually on the job. Yes, the whole concept of not accepting the boundaries Western culture tells us exist is liberating,and fine with me. I don't necessarily take physics as the last word,instead of just the level of knowledge we've gotten to so far. I don't really know what to think...In terms of your boulder story, what always struck me was the spectrum, and the question of what all is going on around us that we simply can't see? Did you ever hear of a man who got something imbedded in his eye through an accident and could then see into the ultraviolet range? Keelin ' thanks for your thoughtful and insightful response to my question about stress. What you said about recognizing our power in being able to control how we react to circumstances is also very freeing. I particularly like the idea about how all the uses of practicing awareness overlap into one simple plus, whether it's the pursuit of lucidity or serenity, or whatever. Thanks for the tip about the ND. I was being careless. Still, if I proved the universe is dreaming, maybe I'll be famous! Barbara ' did you get a chance to read the postings about music in dreams? I was thinking, if you kept an instrument and a tape recorder where you sleep, or even just sang or hummed, maybe you could capture something before it faded. Obviously not some fully orchestrated opus, but something. Wishing everyone awareness in both worlds, Kate

Keelin-I don't know where to put my post about the dream painting web page. All the topics do not seem appropriate.

I also will not post here again until I have an idea for a fun thing to do while lucid because this board has gotten way off topic in my opinion.

That is all :-))

Hi. What is the rule, in general, in terms of posting in the correct place and not going off topic? I keep tuning into places where there was last a conversation, because if I responded in another place it wouldn't necessarily be seen by the people I'm responding to. But I could put something like, "have response but posted it in the so-and-so site, reference if you're interested." Kate

Hi Barbara,

I'd suggest posting your note about the dream painting web page to the Miscellaneous topic and also, if you wish, to Open Conversations (in the Comments and Conversation subfolder).

Hi Kate,

It's best to do as you have been doing -- that is, posting your reply beneath the message you're responding to. Sometimes we will move a message that might fit better under a different topic (we also post a note regarding this to the original site and send a note to alert the author), but if replies are made before we get a chance to do this, we feel it's better to leave it in its original location.

Messages that cover more than one topic create an obvious dilemma, as well as tangents that wander off in a completely new direction, but we don't want to be too restrictive here. We try to keep in mind that our main goal with the Forum is to encourage meaningful dialogue and commentary on the topic of lucidity and its many applications in a friendly and respectful arena. As long as lucidity is being discussed in some fashion, we can certainly tolerate a message posted to the wrong topic and a bit of occasional wandering.

Thanks for asking, Keelin

Hi, Keelin. Thanks for your quick response. I still have a few questions. Could you give me an example of "more thn one topic"? Also, what would entail wandering? Sorry to get so specific, and in fact drag this topic out, but I would like to do this correctly. Thanks, Kate

Hi Kate, ' If a message covers more than one subject, there may be a question of which topic to post it under -- for example: a message that begins with a comment about NovaDreamer settings then goes on to review a book on lucid dreaming. If the message is posted under Induction Devices>NovaDreamer, readers who are interested in books on lucid dreaming, but aren't using the ND, may not read it. In this case, it would be better to post two separate messages (one on each subject) as there are specific categories for those particular subjects.

But let's say you want to post a message that not only describes a lucid dream, but also comments on the frustration of missing NovaDreamer cues. In this case, you would need to choose the single category that feels most appropriate -- Post Your Lucid Dreams or NovaDreamer Experiences or Frustration Support Group. The kind of response you're looking for may help determine which category is best.

When I used the term "Wandering", I was referring to the natural flow of conversations. For example, many dream accounts under "Post Your Lucid Dreams" bring up a variety of subjects like lucid living or experiment suggestions or questions about prolonging techniques and reality checks. Rather than have full messages repeated under several topics, we prefer to have members choose the most appropriate category and post their message there -- unless an edited version would be significantly beneficial under a secondary topic.

Hope this clarifies. The bottom line is: Don't worry, be dreamy.

;-> Keelin

Hi, Joy. I love your idea about making your mind a search engine in terms of inducing ld's. I tried this a few times this am, while cycling in and out of sleep. I'll keep trying it. It's a good way to focus. I'm trying to combine the flame in the lotus flower with the search engine concept, strange though that sounds. It's also a great idea because I spend so much time with computers, my mind is already in that place on some deep level. Now I can have that work for me instead of being a hindrance. Thanks, Kate

Hi, Kate - I'm glad you like that idea - which just sort of popped dreamlike into my sleepy head; I can't really take credit for thinking it up.

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in his book on Tibetan dream yoga mentions having played with his computer during the day and then having an LD in which he would click on various thumbnails or icons to go instantly into different scenes. You mentioned the ancient and high-tech in your interesting and insightful post under "dreams as thoughts"; there's a guy who's blending the two pretty effectively! I don't think he uses any induction devices, though; neither do I. I like the Tibetan techniques but really don't know which of my actions to attribute LDs to. Work on a computer, do a lot of hiking, eat a lot of chocolate, sleep out in the mountains, try to write left-handed, look up at the stars!

Joy

A fun thing I wanted to do, and been trying to do for several months, is to go back to this building that I periodically dream about that has a copy of Sherlock Holmes' sittingroom on the top floor. I always have a sense of magical adventure when I dream about the building but haven't been able to get inside it. Several months ago in one lucid dream I was able to make 'the building' appear. In each dream the building looks different, therefore I wasn't really concerned with it's style. In the dream I became lucid, how exactly I don't recall, and then said that when I opened the front door and looked over at Mary Ann's house across the street, I was in a dream version of my real house, I would see the Sherlock Holmes sittingroom building. And I did. Very vividly and realisticly. Woke up before I could get to it though. This morning I was able to again become lucid, remember the dream I wanted to have, and again told myself as I opened the front door there the building would be over at Mary Ann's. And I remembered to be calm about it and expect it and then open the door. And sure enough, there was the building. This time it was a small house with an attic area sitting behind Mary Ann's house which I don't recall what that looked like. The lights were on in the Sherlock Holmes house and I smiled wondering if Sherlock Holmes was home. The dream tried to change, but I brought it back by concentrating. I walked across to the house passing close by the neighbors along side my house and noticing that there were two graves. One said something about my Grandmother was buried there. I used to own the land in reality where a duplex now stands and have had several dreams in the distant past about burying animals and relatives along side my house on that property. At any rate, back to the S.H. Building dream. I tried to tell myself that the graves were only a dream, but was unable to convince myself. I said out loud that I would check this spot in reality when I woke up and then I would know for sure. It wasn't important to dwell on it and it looked like the neighbors had cleaned and cared for and respected the graves. Then I think here is where I started dreaming that Holmes was a woman with a male Watson and they were riding in a carrage to a building to go detectiving or whatever. I then changed the dream to make it a male then I remembered I wanted to explore the sittingroom and find out what stuff my mind put there and how realistic it would be. To make a long story short I ended up getting lifted by an invisible person up through the floor boards to an attic area. The whole of the house inside was old, worn, decaying, neglected. Which could reflect my passion for Sherlock Holmes because I haven't written any stories or read any or watched any of the movies for a long time. There were supposed to be people in the house but I could not make them appear in physical form. They were fans too and had a club there. There were also a group of grim reapers that I couldn't see either. I tried to imagine black robes but didn't get any manifestations. I also thought to myself there is only one grim reaper and my brain is not cooperating. They told me that I could get to the sittingroom if I gave Holmes what he needed. They didn't say what that was. I thought for a minute and said, "A grave stone. If he is dead then I have to find his grave and make a grave stone." I thought of other stuff too, but don't recall just now what they were. The group laughed at me when I said grave stone. I woke up without ever getting to the sitting room. Right now I am feeling fustrated, annoyed, and wondering how does one incubate a dream? I know it can be done, I've influenced dream plots before and made different characters appear. This was not in lucid dreams though... Also, I am concerned that this dream was not in REM. It was the last dream before I woke up. I think it was in another stage of sleep because I was unable to feel anything and the imagery was not very realistic. The past several times that I have been lucid the dreams take on a very real feeling. I am in the dream copy of my body, I feel it's muscles, the floor against the feet, the solidity of the enviroment around me. I can touch walls, and other objects and they are quite real. I can even slap my hands against a tree and hear the slap, feel the sting of the bark on my hands. How does one incubate a dream or make it easier to get to where you want to go in a dream without loosing the reality or the dream alltogether?? Thanks Barbara :-))

Hi, Barbara

Thanks for your long and interesting LD. You showed a fine self control and you have been able to choose / create an environment / the Holmes Home. Isn't that great? Thinking about the graveyards: I think you did good to care for them and not only said: "It doesn't matter anyway." I would behave similar. Like in waking life, we can learn something from our experiences. The question of how to incubate a dream is not that easy to answer. I've only read about it in a book by Partricia Garfield. I'm not at home now, so I can't look it up. But as far, as I remember, you have to be emotional about it. You have to imagine the dream, have to feel it with all senses. Act it, paint it, make up a song etc. This is an important question for me, too. Our Maui experiment has the goal to perceive a special environment. I think one has to learn how to keep the balance between letting things grow and intending changes. Sometimes it seems, that it is enough to intend to see some image and then open a door to it. Or simply wish a person being there and turn around. I think all this needs training, but it will work, the literature says so.

Keep us updated about Sherlock

Investigative LD for you

Yours Ralf

Barbara - I too am impressed with your level of lucidity and control in that dream - and a little surprised that you feel frustrated after such success! But I understand that you didn't quite get exactly where you meant to go. I don't have any experience with trying to get to specific places so no ideas for you but I wish you luck!

Kate - I tried your combination idea this morning; thanks! - and this has a fun part so I oughta get away with posting it here.

0830 I didn't get back to sleep after 0530 ' cats jumping on me, wind rustling papers ' but since I have the rare luxury of solitude this morning I got up at 0630 and read a little on the Lucidity web site and let the cats out when it was light enough and went back to bed at 0700. I lay there still feeling jumpy and irritable, following restless thoughts like "Don't forget your leather gloves when you go to pick up rocks today,' until finally convincing myself to try Kate's idea of combining "search engine" with "flame in lotus.' First I did the former, which was moderately effective in refining my focus at least, and then the latter which I took to be a variation on the Salgye Du Dalma visualization which involves a glowing white tigle (ball of light) at the center of a lotus. I went on with the next four stages of that one, which have you visualizing four different-colored tigles in the four directions while gradually descending into sleep.

It seemed to be working: At the first tigle I was wide awake. At the second I felt really drowsy, and this was interesting enough to me that I came awake again, so I went back to the first and started over. By the fourth you're supposed to be asleep for all intents and purposes, and I thought that I wasn't supposed to even actually see the fourth tigle; so without looking at it I turned so that I was sitting with my back to it, naked, knees drawn up to my chest. Well, how interesting, I thought: I'm in my dreaming body now! It worked!

This thought brought me back to maybe the third level, in which I was still barely aware of the physical world but pretty far gone, and I went back and forth a few times between the third and fourth levels: noticing that a dream had taken over now that I was walking outside in the dark, slipping back, returning, until after a while I was entirely asleep and dreaming a series of dreams of varying lucidity.

My recall is spotty and I only remember a couple of examples. In one case I was definitely not lucid to any useful degree, because I was sort of upset that visiting family members had made plans to go on a bike ride without including me. I think I remembered I was dreaming and mellowed out. There seemed to be a lot of time when I was vaguely aware that I was dreaming but busy interacting with people and not wanting to disengage with them.

The best-remembered, most lucid moment was when I was high on a steep, craggy mountain to the east, and I had a cave up there with a few belongings in it, and a trail leading past the cave between the nearby summit and the base of the mountains far below. The trail was smooth and chute-like in places and with adequate dream control I could go sliding down it on my butt very rapidly without danger. Fun! When I got to a broken, too-rocky part I just switched to walking, which seemed easier than transforming it and just as enjoyable because I was really reveling in the look and feel of the place. Passing my cave, I wondered if I should pick up my leather gloves from inside but decided I didn't need them, this being a dream.

In the final scene I was back among people again and discussing with my sister KF things I should do; I said to her, "Like: I should say goodnight to my disembodied dream entity.' I felt a little self-conscious speaking of such an entity aloud but my sister said, "How nice!' and I woke up. Good thing, too: it was starting to snow and I had things to do before it piled up'..

Joy

Hi, Barbara. Great dream! I could really identify with it, because I very frequently dream about old houses with many intriguing rooms. And there are certain rooms that seem to consistently show up. The idea of that special room you never had access to and the potential thrill of finally exploring it I can really feel. I too wanted to get to one of these rooms in a recent ld, but was distracted by other things and let my intention wane. It's interesting that you and Linus both recently had the lucid dream intention of reaching a remembered dream locale. You too were far more passionate about it than I was - I ended up investing my emotion in a couple of other things. Regarding your former thoughts about creativity and hallucinations: there is a posting on Research,Theory, and LI exp/dreams are thoughts by Alan Tunbridge that begins "Eric," that really addresses this and is very good. I'm of course not experienced enough to help you with your questions, but I'd guess there are some posting sites that have dealt with this. Maybe someone recalls one in particular? Anyway, good luck, Kate

Hi Kate. Yes, I too have had semi regular dreams about houses with many, many staircases leading to thousands of rooms all full of wonderous stuff. That is a dreamsign for me. It is that consistant that I can say it is a dreamsign. How neat to find another who dreams of many roomed buildings with cool stuff. I was able to explore rooms before, though there were too many to do all in one dream. My rooms are usually packed with antique furniture in all states of repair. This is not too wierd since my family has a history of furniture repair and we love yard sales and "flea" markets. There are other rooms that have whole other worlds inside. I just don't understand the reason why I cannot have the dream I want when I can visualize it quite nicely in my mind while awake. I guess I might have to do serious hypnosis-like imaginings where instead of listening to the trance tape from the LI I should make my own and vividly imagine the scenery. Oh, well I'll keep trying! :-))

Hi, Joy. I posted something to you on the Learning Lucid Dreaming/Helpful tips for getting started site. Hi, Barbara. That sounds like a good idea - intensely imagining the room as part of your pre-sleep meditation process. My family too always had interesting furniture and I also love antique and junk shops, flea markts, etc. My grandmother's house had a great attic that was full of intriguing old items, and even rooms. As a child I often dreamed of attics that were decaying, with holes, etc., much like your dream house. I agree, that this may represent neglect of some kind. Old houses with many rooms should definitely be a cue for me, but it wasn't in my last ld, even though an old house was the setting. They're just not weird enough in themselves to get picked up by what Keelin called "the bizarrness antenna," I guess. Definitely, keep trying. Kate

Kate-I agree, that this may represent neglect of some kind.

Hi. I just wanted to clarify that only in the one dream about the Sherlock Holmes building did I think the emptyness of the place represented my neglect of interest in my childhood hero.

All other times the houses with all the rooms are in fine repair and full of excitement, and all kinds of objects. I think it represents possibilities and new stuff to learn and explore. It represents life to me in that there is always new stuff to learn and new hobbies to get into and all that.

:-))

Hi, Barbara. I understood that the house was in decay in just your recent dream. My response didn't make this at all clear. The decaying attic dreams for me are from a long time ago, although as an adult, periodically the neglected house theme comes up in dreams. I like the idea that the wonderful rooms represent "possibilities and new stuff to learn and explore." I hadn't thought about it that way, but that would explain the magical feel these rooms always have for me. And that is my favorite part of ld's - the chance to explore. As part of the fun thing to do concept, I'm going to strongly pursue visiting one or some of those rooms, and reporting back. Thanks for helping me see something very useful to carry into my waking life. Kate

Hi Barbara, Ralf, and all incubating Oneironauts,

Barbara: Regarding dream incubation: In addition to the methods described by Ralf, I've also heard that writing a single, clear and direct statement of intention prior to sleep is helpful. (If it were me, I'd slip the note -- like a post-it reminder -- 'neath my pillow and literally dream on it!)

This subject reminds me of a time several years ago when I had the great pleasure of meeting frequently on a regular basis with a wild band of select Oregon oneironauts. On one occasion, we held an overnight retreat in a secluded cabin in the woods. After our communally prepared dinner, someone suggested we try to incorporate a chosen object into our dreams that night. We all looked around and quickly agreed that the brightly colored pillow shaped like a fish sitting on the couch would make a great dreamsign. Then we set about incubating!

One of the women, a shamanic drummer, lit sage incense, smudged the fish, and drummed while the rest of us danced about in candlelight, chanting appropriate invocations. We got terrifically silly with lots of laughter and singing (and a bit of fine wine as well). When the time came, we set our sleeping bags side by side on the large, redwood deck where we could hear the rushing stream below, made one final request that our chosen fish escort us to the dream Sea -- and vowed to get lucid!

The next morning, we compared dreams. Some of us had dreamt lucidly, and lucid or not, almost everyone had incorporated the fish in one way or another. One of the most humorous sightings was by a fellow who described one of his dreams as completely uneventful -- except for the fish slowly swimming through the sky, leading him to comment within his dream, "oh, yes, there's that fish we said we'd dream about!"

I believe establishing a very specific goal is one of the most important factors in lucid dreaming at will and a basic ingredient for incubation. After the goal is clearly in mind, it would seem the action-based methods for incubating become much more effective.

Ralf: I want to thank you for the smile that you unintentionally inspired when I mis-read your words in reply to Barbara's question regarding incubation.

What you wrote was: "... one has to learn how to keep the balance between letting things grow and intending changes."

I mis-read the word "grow" as "glow" and it although it set my head atilt, upon reflection, I quite like the concept of inner illumination having something to do with allowances granted in the unfolding of a lucid dream.

Maybe I should start wearing my glasses more often (or have me head examined!), but I've been noticing lately that mis-reading often leads to reality checking. Of course, I need to be careful with suspicion/expectation that the words will read differently at second glance, but episodes like this never fail to toss me into a playful state of awareness -- which is a very good thing, regardless of the realm.

Weed Streams to all, Keelin

Hi, Keelin. The ritual aspect of what you described is something for me to think about - I wonder if that could help me? Also, the aspect of several dreamers mingling energies in seeking a particular goal - to dream of the fish. I've noticed that even just in people posting here on the forum, some similar dream themes seem to appear around the same period. Whatever that indicates, if anything... It's particularly interesting (to me) that Adastra dreamed about a green membrane when there was a forum discussion going on about a "permeable membrane between waking and sleeping consciousness" which he had not even read. The wine I wondered about...I have this concept of alcohol interfering in certain things, but it sounds like this may not be the case with lucidity. Or at least, it may vary with the individual. Shamans I know nothing about, but maybe I'll read up on the internet. Whatever works, within moral and selected legal limits. Thanks, Kate

Hi, Barbara.

I can't remember anymore where you posted that message that takes us to the painting of the incubus, so I'm commenting here. I enjoyed seeing it, and the one on the main screen. The other one I've actually seen before, somewhere. And I have had one of those sleep paralysis/incubus dreams, although I didn't know what it was from at the time. Instead of an incubus, I dreamed a dark-clad, threatening figure that was holding me down. It was quite creepy, because this time, I dreamed my surroundings exactly as they were in real life. I lay there for a long time after waking, afraid to move and find the weight still on me. Wishing you many long lucids, Kate

Hi. Keelin, thanks for the post about shamanism. I just watched a show on Discovery Science Channel called Ancient Astronaughts and it talked about how caves and pyramids and other places were used to induce altered states of consciousness. Scientists found a sound frequency that resonated from in the tombs and caves that cannot be heard by humans and is produced when they play instruments in these places. They think that is what helps them get mystical. That and plenty of expectation if you ask me :-)

I don't beleive in the spirit world. I beleive you can experience all sorts of stuff while awake and while drowsy or while asleep if you are prepared. By that I mean, if you go to a haunted inn and stay the night don't be startled to find you wake up to a ghost. There are no haunted houses, just haunted people is my favorite quote.

I guess I will get a drum and try to alter my state of consiousness. The electrodes on a scientist in a tomb and on a shaman musician produced the same sleep like patterns. The voice over said that it was like your body was asleep but your mind was awake. Sounds like lucid dreaming to me :-) Only it wasn't happening in REM, they were getting Delta waves if I remember correctly.

You could probly order the video from http://www.discovery.com

I might record it later if it repeats tonight :-)

Kate, I admire your inquiring mind. Though I suspect that the reason people dream the same stuff is because we are all based on the same pattern and we all have the same hopes, desires, concerns, and stuff like that. I doubt quite seriously it has anything to do with spirits or telepathy.

I do beleive that the human mind has untapped potential and that we get too bogged down in religion when we start exploring these areas.

That is all. I do not want to start another long conversation on it.

Lucidity in reality Barbara :-))

Keelin

Thanks for your report on pillow fishes and misreading. Playful... that is a tood gint... I'll try it next time!

Barbara

I took a look. Yes, I , too, knew this painting. But is a good example for creative dreamwork. Keep on searching

Yours Larf

Does anyone have suggestions on creating and stabilizing lucid dream characters or objects? Every time I am lucid amd try to cause a person or object to appear, all I get is a very faint, unrealistic image which goes away and comes back, kind of like when your awake and you try to visualize something and it doesen't seem real and solid. Can anyone relate to this frustrating lack of realism and solidity in lucid dreams?