I'm a little bit skeptic about astral projection. It does sound like science fiction to me.

Anyone experienced something like this?

I'm with you man. Personally, i believe astral projection isn't really our spirit exiting our body and walking around, but a dream in which we have ghost like powers. as far as walking around familiar locations in "spirit form" i think it is simply our memory's of locations playing there part in the dream. of course, i have never experienced this phenomena so obviously I don`t know both sides of the story.

I'm a skeptic too - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, ya know?

That's not to say I think people are lying or making it all up. I have had out-of-body experiences myself while practicing lucid dreaming techniques and I think that OBEs and astral projection may just be another type or variation of a lucid dream experience. One that originates from the position and awareness of the sleeping body, but which launches out into a dream body.

Many people will disagree with me on this and I look forward to them proving me wrong, because proof of astral projection - now that would be COOL. :D I love science fiction and to dream of paranormal stuff, but when it comes to searching for objective truth I don't want my own basic human desires (the need to believe there is life after death) to obstruct my search. I prefer to look for the rational explanation, rather than the irrational one, because scientific truth is more important to me.

I'm still as open minded as can be. I still want to hear about people's experiences and how they distinguish them from lucid dreams. I just don't automatically assume the paranormal interpretation, is all ;)

Didn't robert monroe reckon it was real? I dont really know what to believe. It's kindof hard to accept that we can do something like that. It would be nice for something to believe in though. i'm real new at this stuff

Yes Robert Monroe was an out of body pioneer, and I loved his first book. I also interviewed Erin Pavlina on the website about her astral travels, and she clearly distinguishes it from lucid dreaming.

I have real respect for people who are out of body / astral explorers. They are still adventurers to me, whether it's an inner journey or outer journey. The fact that our interpretations may differ is not necessarily a problem - considering we just don't know enough about these experiences yet to scientifically say what they are.

If you created a landscape painting, and insist it's a painting of a real place, but I believe it's a picture you created from your imagination... we can still both appreciate the painting, regardless of it's source....

Rebecca wrote: If you created a landscape painting, and insist it's a painting of a real place, but I believe it's a picture you created from your imagination... we can still both appreciate the painting, regardless of it's source.... I like that way of putting it.

I'm skeptical of astral projection, but I don't flat-out disregard the experiences of others. I've read some stories, that if true, go beyond mere coincidence. Such as someone going to a friend's house, and being able to see exactly what they were doing, and then having it confirmed by a friend. If this is truth, then that's amazing.

I'm also skeptical of shared dreams, but again, some people have some amazing tales. I hope to learn more about these things as time goes on.

I'm clearly going to be the odd one out here and have already made a decision to only very gradually post about things considered "paranormal" because I haven't established credibility yet.

Let's clarify. By "astral projection" are you guys referencing etheric body/real time zone projections where exit sensations are felt?

Jake wrote: I'm with you man. Personally, i believe astral projection isn't really our spirit exiting our body and walking around,

This doesn't really happen. As Robert Bruce asserts, consciousness remains both within the physical body and it the projecting consciousness. I can vouch for the experience of dual awareness.

Rebecca wrote: I have had out-of-body experiences myself while practicing lucid dreaming techniques and I think that OBEs and astral projection may just be another type or variation of a lucid dream experience. One that originates from the position and awareness of the sleeping body, but which launches out into a dream body.

I (mostly) agree with this. Actually, I think lucid dreams are a more efficient way to go about achieving adventures in consciousness. I also think that the dream fluctuations people often experience in their "out of body" experiences of their bedroom, may be a good indicator that they're in a dream body in a dream bedroom rather than their physical bedroom.

I have had the following experience, however, which muddies the waters a bit:

17th April, 2007 I'm dreaming I've married J whom I went out with to 18 or 19 years ago. Usually this is something of a nightmare but this time it's okay. Part way through the dream I develop a split consciousness. I'm simultaneously aware of myself being out of body next to my bed ("etheric" body projection?) and also of myself in the dream ("astral" body?). I'm doing bird pose/Bakasana (a yoga pose) in the body in my bedroom.

So now I've completely transferred consciousness to the OBE and I'm having fun balancing on my arms in the absence of gravity, content to have abandoned the dream. I start to wobble my arms to simulate that it's difficult, just mucking around, when suddenly the ex-boyfriend from the dream flops an arm down from my bed (where my physical body is lying) and gives my head an affectionate rub. I'm instantly awake in my physical body from the surprise of it. So, no vibrations but a definite feeling of shifting in and out of my body. A tad confusing.

If I'm reading you right then it's still "just" a dream. The out-of-body experience happens in your dream so we cannot talk about a real out-of-body experience, can we?

I've attempted astral projection before, and been partially successful, but never experienced a full separation or OBE. I'm undecided as to whether it is truly an ethereal 'astral' body that is sent out or just a lucid dream type creation of the mind, and it will probably never be proven in my lifetime.

Anyone have tips for someone looking to have an astral projection/OBE?

Astral projection tips are similar to lucid dream tips. I don't bother much with projection anymore, I usually have a spontaneous episode now and then and more frequently feel fluttering etheric limbs, hear astral noise and see through closed eyelids. I think the best way is still to use a wake back to sleep method. I highly recommend using methods found on the Saltcube website. Also, Robert Bruce has free tutorials on his Astral Dynamics site. He combines a system he calls New Energy Ways (NEW) with body loosening techniques and exit techniques. He's very generous about giving away his materials. For a real no nonsense approach, you can download Michael Raduga's "School of Out-of-Body-Travel. A Practical Guidebook." All of these authors have videos available too.

Donna wrote: So now I've completely transferred consciousness to the OBE and I'm having fun balancing on my arms in the absence of gravity, content to have abandoned the dream. I start to wobble my arms to simulate that it's difficult, just mucking around, when suddenly the ex-boyfriend from the dream flops an arm down from my bed (where my physical body is lying) and gives my head an affectionate rub. I'm instantly awake in my physical body from the surprise of it. So, no vibrations but a definite feeling of shifting in and out of my body. A tad confusing.

This is cool...... confusing, yes. But that is always my experience of OBEs!!

I wrote out some tips for how to astral project, which are based on what I've read from Robert Monroe and my own limited experience of this phenomenon:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/astral-projection.html

I have also reviewed Salt Cube which I agree has a fantastic set of videos for inducing lucid dreams with visualizations like The OBE Exit Technique:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/lucidology.html

Here is some interesting videos from Robert Bruce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMI0v0x-gvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJhtJUDXZHU

Astral projection is the most amazing thing I have experienced, one of them anyway. It really is something you need to achieve and try yourself, and yes, anyone and I mean anyone can achieve projection.

A very good book to read on the subject is by Robert A. Monroe (Author of Far Journeys) Journeys out of the Body.

I am never a skeptic. Instead, I become excited, and research. It just becomes something I want to do. In the end, whatever it might be, its something I only ever do to prove it to myself.

Robert Bruce is excellent! I loved the idea of a copy of awareness! So with this in mind, its you, but a COPY of your awareness... Can bend the mind in wonderful ways. Yes have a few of hes books as well =D!

I think the ONE thing Astral projection has going for it, as proof, is Identifying something in "the real world". Robert Monroes book, talks about many experiences of this, excellent read on these areas. The book costs nothing, anyone who enjoys the subject in question, I highly recommend hes book.

**But I would agree with what I have read. Try to I.D something in "the read world", to prove it to yourself. Try to see what your friends are doing, or what they had on and ask them to confirm this etc, and prove it to yourself. **

I believe that Astral Projections and OBE's are real and from what I've read I also believe they are two totally different things. I also think they are a natural progression from lucid dreaming (ie. normal dreams > more aware of your dreams > actually being in your dreams > lucid dreams > astral projection > OBE's). Maybe a few other things in-between (and even after OBE's). What I've learned over the years is that Astral Projection is where you stay, or still feel in your body, but you expand your consciousness and awareness "out-there" so you can be in more than one place at the same, whereas OBE's are where you actually leave your body. I have read Robert Monroe's books and personally don't think you could make stuff up like that. With regards to the comments above about dual awareness this is also something I have read about in numerous books by Bruce Moen who attended The Monroe Institute on numerous occasions and he was more of a Astral Projector rather than someone who experienced OBE's.

In my on line journal, "expandurmind.com", I have posted OBE's. Some are a connection with either the multiverse or other dimensions, a couple, I'm sure are connections to God. Astro-travel is also throughout the bible and numerous cultures.

ok so im kind of behind here, but what exactly is astral projection?? :oops:

livie12 wrote: ok so im kind of behind here, but what exactly is astral projection?? :oops:

Astral projection is a kind of spiritual way of interpreting an Out of Body Experience (OBE or OOBE):
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/astral-projection.html

It's where you float out of your physical body and perceive an ethereal dimension in which you can fly around and meet deceased people and other spiritual entities. Often people talk about being attached to their physical bodies by a silver chord coming out of their stomach, like a spiritual umbilical chord. Even so, they claim to travel vast distances across physical space and into a spirit world, meeting positive and negative energies who can help or hinder their path.

I'm very interested by the recurring similarities from different astral travel stories. I'm also interested to learn how people distinguish them from OBEs. Many OBE-ers say it's just like leaving your body, but you stay in the physical world and perceive things pretty much as you normally would. You can still fly and zap about but there are far fewer spiritual interpretations or ghostly entities described in OBE encounters.

Bear in mind, though, that many astral projection / OBE techniques are the same as the Wake Induced Lucid Dream technique which pretty much involves leaving your physical body behind and going off in a dream body. Sometimes you pop straight into the dream but other times you can actually climb or swing out of your body on the bed!! These experiences bear remarkable similarities to OBEs so if you're looking for the scientific explanation, this should be your first port of call.

Anyway it's an interesting concept to explore, and I do recommend anyone trying to have lucid dreams also give OBEs / AP a go because they are surely inter-related even if they are not the same identical phenomenon. As I mentioned earlier, whether you believe OBEs and astral projection is really REAL or not is up to you! I have had OBEs and they can certainly seem real in every sense.

I have never had a Lucid Dreams although I have been trying for a very long time using different kind of techniques - I seem to agree with whatever strange things happen in my vivid dreams. Once I did dream about being lucid but not even that struck my conscious mind... ehm...

But, I have had quite a few OBE/OOBE´s without traveling to distant places or astral planes (yet). What I would like to know more about is getting into the state aka "vibration state". Once I am in this state I find it very easy to leave the body. I "wake up" in bed and realize I am in the state which is easy to recognize because of the vibrational noise. If I don´t have a vision I just stay put and start rubbing my OBE/OOBE hands together until noise increase and vision appear - then I just sit up and walk/fly away. So far I have only been around my building and streets nearby although perhaps some time traveling. I once had an OBE/OOBE and my apartment was all 1980-style... haha!

Anyways, what I would like to learn is to have these OBE/OOBE´s more frequently upon my decision and not just randomly. I want to know how to get into the vibration state easier. Most of the literature seem to be based on overcoming fear and/or how to leave the body once in the state. I know I get into the state if I stay in bed hour after hour in the morning and/or during a daytime nap, but that is not a luxury I have... haha! Ok then, I hope someone may have some suggestion(s) for me. :)

Hey MaKr, welcome and thanks for sharing!

I find the best way to get into this state is to use the technique of "falling asleep consciously" so you must relax your body into a sleep state while staying awake. This is very much like the WILD technique (except you don't plant any dream imagery) so I suggest you start there: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/wake-induced-lucid-dreams.html

Interesting that rubbing your hands together in the OBE state increases your vision. It's exactly the same in lucid dreams! ;)

Daluthe wrote: I am never a skeptic. Instead, I become excited, and research. It just becomes something I want to do. In the end, whatever it might be, its something I only ever do to prove it to myself.

Couldn't agree with you more.

There are so many sources of information for all of this, including explanations of the "science" behind it. Since a lot of them claim their ideas are right and others are wrong, I have thrown my hands in the air and said ya know what, I don't care how it works, I just want to do it!

If it is me, God, Jesus, Buddha, or John from two blocks down that is the source of it, I simply thank "it" for letting me have these experiences, and however it actually works I don't really care haha. Well, I curious of the how, but I know I won't find the truth from reading all the arguing sides of what "it" is. So for now, I will read the techniques and methods of how to have the experiences and then draw my own conclusions. I will of course try to help those who wish to have these experiences as well.

So for now, I will read the techniques and methods of how to have the experiences and then draw my own conclusions. I will of course try to help those who wish to have these experiences as well.

I couldn´t agree more! Once you have had these experiences you just want more and more - mo matter how or why they happen...:)

In my previous post I was asking for guidance on how to get into the so called "vibrations state" easier. Once in the state I find it quite easy to "exit" my body. I am now trying out www.lucidology.com and Nicholas Newport´s suggestions (stop, drop and roll). They seem simple in theory and resemble Mike Raluga´s suggestions, but I guess they prove a bit more tricky in reality...

I shall give you updates on my progress. I "accidentally" enter the vibration state and have OBE´s some 10 times/year but I really want to induce this more frequently. Lucid Dreaming has not worked out for me so OBE seems to be more my thing?! Also, I have ordered "Calea Z" and will try it out - I am a bit scared but have googled and they seem safe =)

Good luck and let us share experiences and suggestions to improve this skill!

Well, reading your blogs about the subject I too was a bit skeptical if it wasn't for actually having astral travelled myself. The thing that made me realize that I actually was successful was that feeling of travelling. The terrifying feeling of travelling and not know where you were going and if you would return. I have never dreamed or had felt that type of terrifying feeling you get just before you travel to the other side. No wonder why your subconscious does not allow you to remember for you would not do go forth and continue to take that step to actually let yourself travel. I think the difference of lucid dreaming and astral travel is that I was able to visit with those loved ones from the other side. I believe this to be true having seen and talked to a loved one that I visited. I have also been told that I have a gift of astral travelling but other than this one time of remembering it and the feeling that I felt, it is hard to believe it was just a dream.

Rebecca wrote: I have had out-of-body experiences myself while practicing lucid dreaming techniques and I think that OBEs and astral projection may just be another type or variation of a lucid dream experience. One that originates from the position and awareness of the sleeping body, but which launches out into a dream OBE are not lucid dreams or wake induced lucid dreams, whether or not they're really real. Those cultures who have believed in them have normally thought of us as having more than one or two physical bodies. The simplest such idea being that in ceremonial magic where one has: a body; soul and spirit. The most complex being the ancient Egyptian theory of the composition of man. Speaking from personal experience, and I'm a natural WILDer who has always been had wake induced lucid dreams. OBE always happen before any onset of dream images or sleep paralysis. They're also consistent with normal reality in that one always leaves and returns. In any dream, hallucination or false awakening they can end instantly with one just waking up to end them.

Yes, I have noticed that a Lucid Dream starts and ends in a dream whereas an OBE starts in sleep paralyze (being "awake") and ends in awakening completely. It is therefore easier to remember an OBE as clear as being awake and the Lucid Dream is more hazy...

Actually, anything that gives you the sensation that you are not laying in bed can be regarded as an OOBE. Notice that the term is pragmatic. It does not affirm that one really leaves the body, it merely indicates that it is an EXPERIENCE.

OOBE = Out-of-body EXPERIENCE

In a lucid dream (and even the non-lucid ones for that matter), your awareness appears to be focusing elsewhere other than your physical body.

The astral projection term was made redundant by me because it is just misleading as projection experiences have nothing to do with "astral/celestial bodies" like stars and planets. The world encountered is closer to the waking world than anything else and no different to a lucid dream (I don't care if people say it's different because it isn't - it is the same realm but we are the ones who perceive it in various degrees of awareness). Astral projection is a belief-centric term and not concerned with facts. Secondly, there is no evidence of an astral plane or that there is even an afterlife. You will find that the term implies the existence of one straight away.

Conclusion: to me it is all the same in three years of experience. There is no difference. It appears that one enters the realm of thoughts upon an apparent separation from the body. Sleep paralysis always happens whether one is aware of it or not, btw. It is a mechanism that prevents us from acting out our dreams.

Furthermore, the mind can create any kind of illusion and people can interpret experiences in numerous ways. For example, once paralysed, an individual may believe that he is about to be abducted by aliens while another may think that a demon sits on his chest. Floating sensations can make someone think they are being led to the spaceship while other may believe that they have died and are out of body...belief and expectation will manifest reality for them in a gloriously realistic conclusion. Some may see aliens while others will notice their sleeping bodies lying in bed.

I'm sorry, guys, but, I experience many "OOBEs" and I believe that they are nothing but WILDs whereby the illusion of separation from the body is conveyed. Once I take a look around at the dream replica of my bedroom I soon become aware of the inconsistencies. For this reason, I don't believe that one ever leaves the body.

There is something else I'd like to share with you all in regards to split-brain patients and what happens to them:

"Split-brain patients have also taught us about dreaming. Scientists had hypothesized that dreaming is a right hemisphere activity, but they found that split brain patients do report dreaming. They found, therefore, that the left hemisphere must have some access to dream material. What was most interesting was the actual content of the dreams of the split-brain patients. Klaus Hoppe, a psychoanalyst, analyzed the dreams of twelve patients. He found that the dreams were not like the dreams of most normal people. " The content of the dreams reflected reality, affect, and drives. even in the more elaborate dream, there was a remarkable lack of distortion of latent dream thoughts. The findings show that the left hemisphere alone is able to produce dreams...Patients after commisurotomy reveal a paucity of dreams, fantasies, and symbols. Their dreams lack the characteristics of dream work; their fantasies are unimaginative, utilitarian, and tied to reality; their symbolization is concretistic, discursive, and rigid." (Segalowitz)"

www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/ub..._brain/Behavior.html

ps. Robert Monroe's "Journey's Out of the Body" is a great read but I also found him a little naive and biased. I feel the same about Robert Bruce in that I think he is extremely biased by the extensive reading into the New Age and Spiritualist traditions he's done when he was younger.

As someone once said to me: "you can connect any star in the sky if you want to."

Yes, you can't prove the existence of an after-life, but, as stupid as it sounds, you can't prove that it doesn't exist either. For all we know, you can't prove that this 'reality', in which we apply our scientific rules, is any more valid than realities people experience in dreams, or possibly after death. I had quite a few arguments with people, considering the term 'fact'. Science is not advanced enough, and will never be advanced enough to prove everything. With quantum theory, most of Newton's physics is now considered totally obsolete, and before it was something not to be questioned. Even with new theories, the whole science world is stuck in paradigms. I, by no means, want to believe in something with absolutely no proof. However, one thing which I am certain of is that people are more than just an organic machine, and that consciousness is more than just a product of brain's mechanism. I won't go into that any further, it's a bit off-topic now. What I personally consider is that both true and fake OBEs/astral journeys are possible. There is a number of stories about people trying to confirm that they are having an OBE by observing a friend during the experience and later asking him what he was doing or wearing to see if it was true, listening to what someone is talking about, etc. Some of them were right, but there were undoubtedly people who found inconsistencies, or even realized that their brain made up the whole experience. In my opinion, OBE is something that cannot be approached from a scientific or a skeptic perspective. If you are just looking for inconsistencies, glitches and deeply believing that it cannot be true, you will just wander off to another lucid dream that mimics your reality. With all that in mind, I still do not know enough about the topic, and I am not saying that I am absolutely right. This is just my standpoint.

Mr anonymous wrote: Didn't robert monroe reckon it was real? I dont really know what to believe. It's kindof hard to accept that we can do something like that. It would be nice for something to believe in though. i'm real new at this stuff

I'm coming to the conclusion that it is real and these phenomenon are all related.

Let me take it up a notch in strangeness. --- I think they are also interconnected, including with past lives/reincarnation.

Rather than talk about dreams and trying to prove to each other whether they are real (almost impossible to prove), how about an example of verifiable personal history that happened to another physical person a thousand miles away? If this is true, it is a definite example of information that originated outside of this person's direct physical experience.

Once you accept this as being possible, you need to accept the probability of NDE, OBE and other non-physical experiences as being outside of your physical person as well.

And once you make these intellectual leaps, is it so hard to imagine that LD is part of this continuum of experiences? Do we really think there are a multitude of these unexplained dimensions that are all unrelated? Or is it more probable that there is one (potentially vast) non-physical environment where these occurrences go on?

I have moved from a "normal" LD into what I think may be this sort of space. I'm pretty sure it exists. The fact that many books have described this same thing offers some additional validation to me. However, I wouldn't try to convince anyone of what I have experienced as it could be argued that I was communicating with myself the whole time so I would point you to what I consider a more concrete example... One of many,,, but I am offering just one here.

Take a look at the following link. Scroll down to "Sweet Swarnlata: A Case from Dr. Ian Stevenson" and try to explain away the case of this little girl who claims and proves she lived another life.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm#swarnlata

My point is this: once you start to accept that this is possible, you have to except the possibility that this expanded non-physical environment is real, and that much of what you are, and can experience, is not located inside of your your physical existence.

The only way you can outright deny this possibility is to argue that this story (and the 19 just like it) never happened. Now how rational is that?

While you are on the page, I would check out the video. It offers a cogent discussion of the facts.

Enjoy...

Oh deary me! I see all New Age adherents coming out of the woodwork now.

Science is not advanced enough, and will never be advanced enough to prove everything.

This you don't know, Seth. Science continues to make progress - more so in the last century. We can now make antimatter! Another thing I would like to point out: quantum theory...it's theory...and also a zoo of contradictions and disagreements. They are so uncertain about this that they dread not being able to find a particle that they invented: the Higg's boson.

However, one thing which I am certain of is that people are more than just an organic machine, and that consciousness is more than just a product of brain's mechanism.

I have no doubt in my mind that all experience ceases once the brain is destroyed. In fact, you don't even have to go that far. Damage to the brain cortex can induce long-term coma. You can be out for years and return to consciousness and feel like no time has passed at all.

Also, you don't remember anything prior to your birth. You didn't exist. That is the closest you will get to understanding what being dead is like from the living perspective.

There is nothing to suggest that the view where the self is nothing but an illusion created by body cells working together is wrong. In fact, it is very plausible. Take drugs and you are very likely to distort your perception of reality and even your mood. In meditation, you are able to let go of concepts. A deep hypnotic trance can even make you forget your own name. It is all electrochemical activity in the brain.

Like a computer, the brain can generate images. It is a very complex biological machine. It produces both waking and sleeping experience.

To me all experience takes place in the brain or in the conscious state that is produced by the brain. I won’t go into the electro-chemical process as that is not relevant for my thoughts. The IMPUT for this experience can come from outside or be constructed from internal stored experience and chopped up in many ways either by will or by random processes.

I feel that past life is a construct of the mind, might be pure fantasy or may be by minds (young minds) being tuned into others thoughts in the dream state and them a culture nurturing these thoughts and turning them into something that isn’t. Radio waves exist beyond the point of generation, if they didn’t we would not be able to receive them, could thought be projected like this and if so what state would you need to be in to receive them. If you could receive them would they remain pure or would you place them into some context to "explain" them and present them in a way that you want to believe.

I have been LD for a lifetime, had countless OBE and WILD experiences and believe they are special in their own right and think control of the dream state allows us into another reality but firmly believe it is in your head but that the input may at times be external.

Summerlander wrote: There is nothing to suggest that the view where the self is nothing but an illusion created by body cells working together is wrong. .

I know you are probably just kidding about the new age comment but I want to repeat- I am not a "new ager". I am a professional electrical engineer, not a tarot card reader. You don't know me but I assure you, I am the most level headed guy you'd ever want to meet.

Up to about 2 years ago I "knew" life was about being born, living, dying and then fading to black. I had no evidence to the contrary.

How can you make the statement above in the face of the many hundreds of "eye witness" accounts to the contrary? How is it valid to simply ignore these cases and make that sort of blanket statement that there is "nothing to suggest" ? Seems like you are the one who is being less rigorous from a scientific perspective.

A few hundred years ago many said there was, "nothing to suggest" that the Earth and other planets revolved around the sun. Turns our there were many things suggesting this fact. For example there was a whole set of very convoluted equations describing the odd tracks of the planets as they orbited Earth, but very simple equations existed to show them revolving around the sun. How could people dismiss this obvious contradiction? Because the new theory didn't fit into the normally accepted picture of things. This all seems obvious now, but then again all things do after the fact,,, don't they?

One might also keep in mind that today in 2011 there is nothing in science to say that two objects can become entangled and share information over great (perhaps infinite) distances instantaneously (ie- faster than the speed of light) in violation of more than one of Mr Einstein's theories. Nothing that is,, except the fact that it does exist and has been experientially proven numerous times over the last 50 years. The double slit experiment shouldn't work: but it does, every time. So although we can point no scientific basis for the "strange" occurrence of quantum entanglement, there is overwhelming proof of its existence.

So,,,, I would respectfully suggest to those who really wish to be unbiased, that they consider not simply ignoring those pieces of data that don't serve to prove their case and take all the available relevant information on the topic into account.

Put another way- A good scientist doesn't sort through the data and throw out that which doesn't fit the desired curve.

Just a thought.

fuzzylogic wrote: I am the most level headed guy you'd ever want to meet.

Or you like to think so. :|

fuzzylogic wrote: Up to about 2 years ago I "knew" life was about being born, living, dying and then fading to black. I had no evidence to the contrary.

But that is the thing though...death isn't necessarily fading to black...more like fading to nothingness. You won't see black, you won't even see...nor think, hear or feel anything. No concepts, no experience. You won't even know you are dead. There is no you. What was once "you" (all the cells working together and which made up your organism and created many illusions) is gone, detached, decaying or pulverised and gone to become something else.

fuzzylogic wrote: How can you make the statement above in the face of the many hundreds of "eye witness" accounts to the contrary? How is it valid to simply ignore these cases and make that sort of blanket statement that there is "nothing to suggest" ?

I'll tell you how... Experience happens in the mind whether you are awake or asleep. The mind is more than capable of playing many tricks. Someone could spike my drink with psychedelic drugs and I could tell you all about how taps spoke to me when I went to the loo to wash my hands and yet I would not be able to prove it. I'd be a witness and clearly, in this case, one who saw something that didn't really happen.

I don't dismiss their experiences...I dismiss their biased interpretations. And then we have the gimmicky famous cases...

Occam's razor, my friend. As I said, there is "nothing to suggest". There is only the suggestion of indulgence in fantasy - a trait that many of us keep from childhood. :roll:

fuzzylogic wrote: A few hundred years ago many said there was, "nothing to suggest" that the Earth

Sure, sure! But that is a different case. It is also true that humanity has been clinging to spirituality and religion for many millennia and the main culprits are "visions of the night". Sleep paralysis, vivid dreams, lucid dreams, nightmares, you name it... All characterised by brain states. Who knows, maybe this time people need to realise that there is more to the brain than they think and such visions are the product of a biological supercomputer rebooting itself and not...ahem...glimpses of a spirit world. ;)

fuzzylogic wrote: The double slit experiment shouldn't work: but it does, every time. So although we can point no scientific basis for the "strange" occurrence of quantum entanglement, there is overwhelming proof of its existence.

You see, I know you said you are not a New Ager...but this is exactly what a New Ager would do. They try to use quantum mechanics to back up their claims. All particles in our local universe are probably, to different degrees, quantum entangled and the result of this was probably the interaction of all from the Big Bang. But this doesn't mean it's paranormal forces at work. Just a mechanism that we are yet to understand. If we imagine our local universe to be like an expanded cell or even part of an atom of some sort, then it is not so strange to think that it is all connected by PHYSICAL forces that we are yet to detect. We still have to shed some light on dark matter and all that shebang.

Perhaps we don't understand it because we are part of it and human logic cannot encompass the so-called quantum logic. It may be just the way of things. It is not proof of an afterlife or the existence of an omniscient being we call "god". The quantum entanglement business is only "strange" if we think of it as strange. The double-slit seems to play upon observation and again there is nothing to it. Like gravity (something that we don't fully understand), measurement collapses one possible and viable outcome pending the circumstances. Perhaps magnetic fields from living organisms who are being observant and analytical affect the behaviour of photons and electrons...

All states have the potential to become but the relevant one manifests according to observation. Perhaps the outcome is dependent upon brain states when a measurement is being made. Like a sound sensor that flashes when you speak. No need for magic at work. Here's an interesting video which is in direct contradiction of Mr. Campbell's theoretical model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYacDt0m3yY&feature=related

It could also be just the measurement and the possible interference of the device and not if someone is observing or recording what is going on. There is no need for recording - it happens anyway. To state that the information is already available is pure conjecture (as Campbell does and I took part in a discussion about this quite recently in a Facebook group). My friend Claudio pointed out some of Campbell's errors by emailing him and after a brief discussion Mr. Campbell decided to ignore him:

http://soprano.com/QM/

I'm going to make a vehement statement here and you can all agree, disagree or agree to disagree. Thomas Campbell and his horde are modern New Agers. They use different terminology and are more adherent of quantum physics in order to reinforce their beliefs in rebirth, parallel universes, past lives, spiritual realms and everything paranormal in general. Beware of cunning scientists working in the shadows! :mrgreen:

Summerlander-

All good points.

re- occam's razor... Yes I am quite familiar. It is the basic point of my example about the solar system.

And 60 years ago it was clear that Einstein had it right. He disagreed with what he called "the strange behaviour" of quantum and Occam's razor was probably used at that time by many to validate his position. And it turns out he didn't have it right at all.

The only thing other I would like to clarify is the example I used about quantum mechanics. My reference to it shouldn't be construed as a way to explain the underlying mechanism behind a non physical reality, it was used as an example of the fact that we don't understand all that we see. I could have just as easily pointed the the Higgs boson phenomenon and how (we think) it is related to the mass property of particles (strings).

So my point was/is that seemly"impossible" things do happen. And although experiencing a completely non-physical environment may seem contrary to our current scientific model (just as quantum entanglement is) it may none-the-less be a part of our universe which we may simply have not yet figured out or even acknowledged. In the case of quantum we have "officially" acknowledged it because the rest of quantum behaviour is, although completely bazaar and non-intuitive, is absolutely verifiable.

I am still not understanding how you can with a simple wave of the hand ignore the many documented cases of people who know in great detail their previous life. I know it doesn't fit your model of how the world works, but is seems all to convenient to me that it can be dismissed without a hesitation.I would feel more satisfied if you were to explain how in any particular case, you would explain the occurrence any other way. By commenting without knowing the details, you are just (I am afraid to see) remaining purposefully ignorant.

The reason I am willing to consider a very strange possibility is because I am not willing to ignore all the data supporting it. It just doesn't make rational sense to do so (in my opinion)

See this link for a good example of how I would support my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg&feature=player_detailpage

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful explanation of your thought process. I relate strongly to it as it was exactly my opinion before I decided to consider all the available evidence.

Be well.

You keep giving me past examples to justify your statements such as the one where people had a different view of the Earth and the universe and the one where Einestein was wrong in some of his assumptions but, the truth is, it doesn't mean that the same case is applicable in the matter that we discuss now.

I've researched reincarnation and I have discussed it countless times. There is no evidence for it whatsoever. I don't understand why so many people cling to this belief and claim that it can't be any other way when there is no proof. I will point out many of the possible and more mundane explanations that believers dismiss:

The amazing complexity and inner workings of the brain which is still quite elusive. Coincidences. Cryptomnesia. Genetic memory. Etc.

You can argue that some people have had very specific experiences with dates, times, places, which were then researched and apparently verified. But, we don't know if they were already unconsciously aware of the details of said person before a so-called past life memory comes to light. There are some remarkable cases of cryptomnesia which reflect the amazing potential of the human mind. Have you researched them besides reincarnation?

We also possess genetic memory. We are born with certain memories. Some of them quite basic and inherited: a baby intinctively searches for a nipple, an animal knows it needs to get on its feet immediately etc etc. - and then we have the more far-fetched collective consciousness: are memories stored in the brain or are they extracted from electromagnetic fields that pervade our world (like Rupert Sheldrake's M fields)?

I more readily accept telepathy, which seems very feasible, rather than reincarnation. Note that I am not stating here that there is no afterlife. I am merely stating that it is more probable that when we die, we will be no more alive than the dead skin flake I'm removing from my head right now.

I'm not dismissive and ignorant my friend. I've discussed this topic so many times and I have considered so many angles. I used to have the same opinion as you but I am very fickle and not one to cling to beliefs because they please me or because I am satisfied that they are good enough of an explanation. The Dead Poets Society is one of my favourite films and the character played by Robin Williams best illustrates my character. I have gone through many paradigm shifts and at the moment, this is my perspective. I also refrain from using oxymoronic statements like "seemingly 'impossible' things do happen".

Your perspective that I seem to conveniently dismiss the fantastical is justified paranoia from the probable fact that you were unaware of my research and countless past discussions on this. Make no mistake about it, I am not favouring explanations over others and I don't hold a model. On the contrary, I say all models are biased by human perspective and logic and there is no real reliable theory of everything. All experience, for once, derives from sensory input and the thoughts we have. Let's not forget that some animals get more out of reality than what we do with all our senses. Their worlds can be brighter. In the end, nobody knows what the world is really like. All one can do is go by personal experience and this is where personal experience has lead me.

Purposefully ignorant are those who wholeheartedly embrace the theoretical rather than the empirical. Thanks for the debate! ;)

I am also very weary of present experiances leading to mystical beliefs. What happens here and now and in the dream world or waking world or somewhere between is important. Taking that experiance and adding cultural beliefs and wanting to believe in something just wont cut it for me as that is not proof but merely making something fit.

one question I have always had about past life is when did they start?, at one time there were very few people on the planet and for a long time only thousands so when did we start having past lives to recall and does everyone have one? or just a seclect few. Are they our past lives or simply memories of a past life so we could all have some common ones and share, but then who do the past lives belong to

Peter

Exactly! In fact, more than one person can remember being Cleopatra or Henry VIII. Isn't it funny how we can have different memories in dreams and are able to assume different identities? And what about multiple personality disorders? What about delusions and hallucinations (particularly those where living people believe to be fictitious characters)? We can be anyone we want if the mind believes so.

In fact, in hypnotic and meditative trances, a person is able to understand what it's like to not know things, to let go of concepts - to even forget their own names! I have gone to knowing and not knowing a simple concept during a meditative state and was able to go back and forth like a switch.

Trust me folks, when I say that this past life memory business is more likely to be the concoction of unconscious imagination, false memory, dreams etc. etc.

Beware of so-called validations too. So many people believe in this and there are many reincarnation cases out there that I am not surprised that coincidences happen (that is the nature of things because if they didn't happen, then it would actually be weird). Also, biased people are likely to see more associations than a sceptic or a pragmatist.

In fact, more than one person can remember being Cleopatra or Henry VIII

I guess it's up to me to continue to be the voice of the other side of this dialogue.

Can you please provide the names of the people that you claim to remember being Cleopatra? Just curious if these are documented cases or a bit of myth.

I have read hundreds of accounts of past life experiences performed in controlled settings, and I have read exactly zero that involve Henry the 8th or Cleopatra. Admittedly It's easy to scoff at this stuff. but as long as your scoffing references fictitious examples, how do you expect a curious open minded person to consider your POV?

I'm not suggesting that anyone must actually read any of the books on the subject, but if they did they would see that the question about the number of souls and how that relates to past human lives is discussed in quite a lot of detail by many people who have studied the subject for years.

I would suggest that anyone who is open minded enough to consider the possibility of past lives and a soul that persists through them, read some of the actual accounts. Don't view much of the comments on this forum as anything more than one point of view to consider. There is a lot out there on this topic.

It doesn't matter if there are cases of people who "remember" being Cleopatra, Henry VIII or Peter Pan. It doesn't matter who they claim to be. That's not the point I am trying to make here. Hell, I could have used well known examples from Roy Stemman's body of research such as the case of American WWII hero General 'Blood and Guts' Patton (Battle of the Bulge) who curiously recalled a past life as being one of Caesar's legionnaires. But who hasn't heard of Caesar? They said he carried his past life's skills into the next life but couldn't he have imagined himself to have been a warrior (again) at that time?

There are certainly many works published on the subject and for a good reason: it gives people hope and therefore it sells. There is no proof whatsoever that there is such a thing as a "soul". If reincarnation is true, fuzzy, then I ask you this - why is it that it still hasn't been proven? Read my words carefully, granted that there is evidence to suggest that it is so from the perspective of believing that consciousness survives death but...there is no proof.

If you want, I welcome you to show me one convincing case. I'll welcome you and I promise I'll be as open-minded as I can. I'll let you in on something, too. I subscribe to Buddhism. But not the Buddhism that has been moulded over millennia in order to have some sort of control and influence over people with such ideas as rebirth and karma. No. I imagine that Buddhism started out in a purer form where the Buddha realised that there is no self and that nirvana would be reached by simply dying. As you know, nirvana is the cessation of being. A departure from conceptual reality if you like.

You are partially right: there is no "proof" that the soul exists. My question is: what would you consider "proof"?

As far as I can tell, there is no proof that dreams exist, or imagination, or hate, or love, or super strings. I throw in the latter because unlike all the previous examples, physicists believe they can eventually prove their existence because (they think) they are a part of our physical reality. All the former examples aren't. An how would you possibly unequivocally "prove" something which isn't in the physical?

OK so to prove something where tangible physical evidence is elusive, we need to provide verifiable facts, and lots of them. Now the problem is: one could always argue that there is a hidden conspiracy where the facts which are presented as unknowable by one or more parties, is actually known before hand. Since it is impossible for anyone to prove that the conspiracy didn't happen, we are back to where we started, aren't we?

Bottom line: without physical evidence (which is impossible in this case because with very few exceptions, most feel that bringing something physical back from a non-physical experience is impossible) proof beyond a shadow of a doubt may not be possible, but let me do the best I can.

So yes- I would be happy to provide an example case. As a matter of fact I already have earlier in this thread. It is one case out of 20 that was published in a book called 20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Dr Ian Stevenson.

See the links below...

Discussion of this book- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhMDU9GcVg&feature=player_embedded#!

An excerpted example from the book- http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm#swarnlata

I am right about the soul: there is no proof...

Dreams are as universal as waking perception and as real as the axiom that an individual human being is aware that others think too. Besides, brain activity changes and correlates with differing states of consciousness. This is observable in labs and confirmed by subjects. Imagination can breed creativity and love and hate are emotions as well as anthropological concepts.

Lucid dream correlates have been found. I can't see why thoughts can't be quantum mechanical in nature, and, like a supercomputer, the brain generates the illusion of other worlds. After all, it also generates waking experience! How do you watch videos and images on a computer screen? How does a computer construct realistic images and figures that resemble what we see in the real world? There is no need for non-physical planes of existence. Let me emphasise that one should not dismiss the complexity of the brain...

The brain is a three-pound supercomputer with 100 billion nerve cells and more connections than there are stars in the known universe. If all neural connections between brain cells were laid out end to end they would reach to the moon and back!

In essence, all the examples that you mentioned as not being a part of physical reality actually are. They are a product resultant from certain interactions within a physical system - otherwise correlates would not be found to attest to this. Before you can claim that there are things which aren't in the physical reality, you must define what physical is. Apparently, even the physical world as perceived by us (formulated in our minds) is an illusion (otherwise different species would experience the same thing) and all that exists is the quantum world (which is weird and misunderstood enough).

Physicists are currently still struggling with this and part of the problem is that we can only see what happens within the system. The assumption of another reality underlying this one is yet to be found so most physicists are content with the notion that self-awareness arose from an emergent complexity from all the entropy and associations between particles formed.

Whatever the case, I don't like string theory. IMO scientific theories are tripe and biased by human logic. I like to wait and see those verifiable results especially if they can be replicated time and again beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm very pragmatic. Until I see one telling me that consciousness survives physical death...sorry. We can only really know when we finally depart from this life...or not know...

Look at Dr Ian Stevenson's compiled work and tell me that none of my proposed mundane explanations could possibly describe them. How do you rule out cryptomnesia, genetic memory or even exaggeration/sensationalism to sell books? I go back to my point...where is the proof and why is it that reincarnation is not accepted as dreams are? And what happened to troglodytes coming back to life? :mrgreen:

Summerlander:

OK you're loosing me here....

We can certainly talk about the nature of reality, and whether we have "proof" of dreams. It's interesting that your standards are so high when it comes to proof of reincarnation or a deeper non-physical reality, but so low when it comes to proof of dream actually occurring. Also you have a convenient way of redefining the words hate, love etc to fit your particular point. That's OK but hardly the point of the last email, which was to provide an actual case study for you to read and respond to.

I thought you said that if I provided one, you would take a closer look at an example and respond?

How does cryptomnesia apply here? It is all about forgotten memories. How would the girl in the cited case "forget" a memory it was impossible for her to have in the first place? This is inapplicable.

Next- are you claiming that genetic memory exists? What is the mechanism of operation? And more importantly, how does it apply in this case where the girl has no genetic connection to the family from which she claims to have come? Once again, inapplicable.

Sorry- arm waving, and using $50 words doesn't build a logical case. You have failed to give the readers any reasoned refutation of the example I pointed you to, other than "someone made it up to sell books". ie- you are falling back on the lame old conspiracy argument that anyone who has limited or no facts, or a reasonable argument would make.

The bottom line is: for those who have already made up their mind, there is no proof that is strong enough. I point to the first sentence of your email as my evidence that you have already made up yours.

I'm surprised that you can't at least admit that these cases (which are many in number) are hard to explain and given our lack of scientific understanding on these topics, are truly mysterious. Your unwillingness to speak to the facts of the case I've provided are indicative to me that: 1- you have no reasonable explanation 2- that you'd rather not hurt your argument by admitting so

I'm afraid that a where we differ most is that I am willing to admit that our current understanding of the world is incomplete and doesn't fit the facts in front of us.

I'm willing to consider possibilities that include theories and practices that have been in place for thousands of years. And which, based on my personal experience merit further investigation.

You however seem to be satisfied that if you stick to the current modern scientific "dogma" which has no real theories that explain the facts, and hope someday someone will be able to prove you right. And in the mean time, your defence against the crazy "New Agers" is to throw out unsubstantiated stories, ridicule, and to respond to documented claims with inapplicable rationalisations.

I guess we can let those who read this thread draw their own conclusions.

Happy to discuss further if you have more applicable to say about the case at hand.

I am still reading this one. It seems that the debate has gone way left and way right to prove a point about now.

I still come back to simple stuff. (no big words here) it is possible -yes. It is probable - ? I dont know.

Experiance is not proof as the ream where we are seeking the answers is not really explored or really understood. We dont know the limits or what we are even exploring. As far as the dream state, OBE, LD etc is concerned I can at times beleive that it is possible and at times think that it is not to have a past. I have had snaps of the future and so why not the past.

Lets turn this around and tell us Fuzzy what would cause you to have doubt - from a personal point of view and Summerlander - what is the least that would cause you to think that just maybe there is an element of truth to the claims. This does not make it litteral or a given fact just opens the mind to a possibility and none of us would be dreaming or posting if we did not have mind embrace and explore LD

Peter: What would make me have doubt?

I have doubt now. :?

Unlike Summerlander, I am not convinced of anything at this point.

However I'm leaning toward a spiritual power that is "hidden" underneath reality for many reasons...

Religion and god doesn't fit the bill as it is is way to ritualistic and arbitrary and exclusional to make any sense to me. Because of her religion, my sister thinks I'm going to hell because I don't go to her church, and my friend who is "born again" thinks my sister and I (and everyone else) are going to hell because we don't read his version of the bible, and on and on. It's crazy and I honestly don't believe if there is any entity whatsoever lurking under the covers, that it cares what church we go to. Funny thing is: my guess is, all the major religions are probably based on the same spiritual system and the same sorts of experiences as my belief system. The difference is: I think all of these systems are parallel roads to the same place, whereas they think there is only one correct road and the others were created by the devil and go straight to hell. Foolishness.

So what "evidence" do I have? Only the many many thousands of accounts of OBE, NDE, LBL, and paranormal events through the ages, for 7000 years, back to before the Egyptians. More specifically the hundreds of modern cases of "life between life" accounts that are amazingly consistent.

My current view of the world is there is a non-physical reality that is the nexus for many (all?) of the otherwise unexplained spiritual events that have been reported for thousands of years and have been unexplained because the methodology for studying such events didn't exist until the last several decades.

This belief isn't born out of fear or the desire to believe something... It's born out of a desire to want to understand how the world works. The belief system I have now fits the facts and accounts that are on the table.

Stubbornly hanging on to the scientific findings and theories which ignore much of the data seems irrational to me. Keep in mind. I'm an engineer. My life and career are built on the "scientific method", so I don't choose to take this approach lightly.

However I'm starting to be of the mind that there are inherent limitations of a rigid scientific approach. This is one reason why consciousness is not much better understood now than when Frued studied it almost 100 years ago.

Most important thing to me is this- Although I'm willing to listen to what people tell me in (books and forums), I want to personally experience anything I buy into. This is why I'm currently spending time learning to OBE. So I can see and discover for myself and speak from personal experience. My desire is to confirm my personal belief with personal experience. And at that point if I can't "prove" anything to anyone, I'm fine with that, as saving the world wasn't my point anyway.

As a matter of fact, in my current model of spirituality (which I am trying to confirm through LD/OBE observation), the world and the people in it don't need to be saved at all... Each person and their spirit will be just fine as they will work through their spiritual growth on their own individual timetables for as long as it takes. Sounds nice. Don't know if it is true. It may be strange, but unlike religion, at least it makes sense to me, and is logical, and is consistent with the available information.

I agree with the context - religion is a copout in my mind as it takes away any personal responsibility and dumbs people down when they get too hung up in the beliefs.

I think there is a power or energy without doubt but that it exists inside and we all own it and can tap into it and there is no need to give the credit to anything else.

I have also never said that I disagree with the recalled experiences only the breaking down of them to a reason - we have this insane need to have a reason for something and it can only ever be fitted into what we know not what we don’t know. I tend to explore like a child and have no want to explain as the answers tend to come in time.

I do believe there is an underlying reality or overarching reality that is untapped but at times connected with and experienced but refrain from fitting it into any model that exists now. As far as OBE etc is concerned I have had hundreds of these experiences and am fully aware of my energy body, how it feels and how it leaves - not where it goes :-), can’t explain that yet. I have had many profound dream experiences and many in daily life as well. Events that are well beyond coincidence and will give two examples just for interest.

One - years before my first two children were born and before I knew what a LD was but after a lifetime of lucid dreaming I met two small girls on the beach in front of my house in a LD. I asked them who they were and they laughed at me and said don’t be silly, we are your daughters. I told my partner this and said we would have two girls and their hair colour. I was correct on both counts. What this proves I don’t know but it’s interesting.

Two - A small event from daily life and one of many similar events. I was on the phone to an artist and he was going to paint for me, he asked me for a number for the painting and between 1 and 10. I picked one but had the thought that I really wanted 13 as it is my lucky number. About an hour later I was on my bike out riding and I go past road markers, 10 -11- 12 - and then 13 is snapped and on the ground just waiting for me to pick it up.14 - 15 & 16 were all ok. A nice story - all true but how relative to anything I don’t know.

I have had a lot of these events occur and believe there is a connection between everything and all realms but don’t understand the connection yet - I will continue to explore all realms and hope to keep these sorts of dialogues going as well as it is a great exercise to express thoughts

So Peter:

We seem to agree that there definitely is what I would call a universal non-physical system (we might call it a "spiritual" one) that we can all tap into. The indication of this is the many many cases where people have experienced it. And their "proof" is that they have discovered information they could otherwise never have known. You have given some possible examples. I have many examples I can share, several from my own life experience. I've even gotten a recent account of one on this very forum where a poster got information from a friend's deceased girl friend.

I assume you are familiar with the whole life between life model as described by Michael Newton and his his work.

-For those who don't know, it talks about the fact that each of us has an eternal soul which in some fashion permanently exists in this spiritual system with other souls and that we experience growth through living multiple lives and learning about those lives in the time between lives. And over these learning cycles the soul reaches higher levels of assistance-

So my question is this- If you are familiar with this idea, and you already think the spiritual system exists, and you have read the many accounts of people who have described the system and the LBL experience, how do you explain it if you don't believe it? (BTW- it's OK w/me for one to "stay on the fence" and neither explain OR believe it)

Are these people all expressing the same thing because of some cultural bias? (problem is there is no cultural bias toward reincarnation in the USA) or is there some other explanation?

I'm not trying to make some huge quantum leap here. I'm just trying to sort out why I wouldn't believe that particular part of their story, when I believe the rest. And if that part of their story is true, it makes a big difference (at least to me) in explaining how and why I'm here and how I might approach my life and how I might view my whole existence. Afterall, if true, this one aspect of reality tells me that I'm in a continuum and not a single life event, and that makes it a very big deal.

So why do I ask this? Because for me, investigating this possibility could potentially be the most important activity of my life. This isn't some silly magic trick to argue about on the Internet. It's way too important to blithely ignore while I go back to watching some mindless reality TV show.

As I remain open minded about this, I find that there is a lot of experiential and informational evidence justifying continued serious investigation, at least on my personal part. Which is what I intend to do. And discussing it like this allows me to test the logic of my approach and keep myself true to, if not a pure scientific method, at least a measure of intellectual honesty and objectivity

Best...

I could say an awful lot about the "inapplicable" statements above, but I will finalise this post with something simpler in regards to lucid dreaming and so called OOBEs.

First though, let me point out that science does use theory in an attempt to explain the nature of reality: quantum theory for once is a bloody zoo.

Secondly, I think you misread my post, I am not certain of anything and don't even subscribe to any dogma (this reading came from you). I will say though, that, when science is based on empirical evidence, it is the best thing we've got.

You, on the other hand, fuzzylogic, choose to believe in a non-physical reality when it is only theoretical and belief-centric. How can you scoff at religious beliefs and yet believe in something that you have no proof of?

To finalise, and this goes to everyone: belief and expectation...the mind makes it real. Want to see "spirit realms", the "dead" or even "aliens" and that is exactly what your mental "playdoh" will form for you. Want to relive a past life and voila...a concoction is born. Want to see God (and you should try this one fuzzy) and it will only be your idea of what God would/could be like.

I rest my case. :roll:

I scoff at religion because it is inconsistent and makes no logical sense. It simply feels fundamentally invalid to me.

I still don't think you've really addressed the example I gave you. That's fine, it's a hard one to refute.

I totally agree with your comments regarding the fact that the mind sees what it expects to see. If you expect to see aliens, or God,, you do. That sort of thing is why I'm still on the fence about this stuff. I'm thinking that maybe this sort of thing is the result of the brain/mind interpreting what it experiences and this subjectivity introduces an aspect of bias into the system. Problem is since this is all experiential, you can't remove the subjective bias from the equation so you are stuck with the fact that this will muck up the data.

Sorry- I must have misinterpreted your comments to mean that you were convinced in your opinion that science has the answers. I definitely think this is not the case. There's lots of talk about conscious events happening every 30-40 milliseconds where quantum events are resolved. But there is little or no real substance to theory. I don't think science has a clue about the nature of reality or of consciousness specifically. And given the scientific approach, as compared to the subject matter, this maybe this should be expected.

So my question is this- If you are familiar with this idea, and you already think the spiritual system exists, and you have read the many accounts of people who have described the system and the LBL experience, how do you explain it if you don't believe it? (BTW- it's OK w/me for one to "stay on the fence" and neither explain OR believe it)

Are these people all expressing the same thing because of some cultural bias? (problem is there is no cultural bias toward reincarnation in the USA) or is there some other explanation?

Back again. I still maintain that we have our experiences and we can’t deny that. Let’s put aside all the posturing and copy catting that may go on. That leaves each of us with what we have experienced. I don’t deny that we these are real to us. I still have no idea if this happens outside of our own minds - maybe we are stand alone units with a power source and we generate our own reality and all see world in different ways - all our experiences are internal and there is no connections outside of our minds.

While this is a little unlikely if you were to think that you are simply like a little battery or single unjoined power unit and there is no afterlife, no past life and really in some ways no life except what our senses generate and our own reality I suspect you would not want to believe it. It’s a lonely thought and not one many would want to believe and to me that is at the centre of all the reasoning - which it is driven by a need to believe in something greater than what we are instead of accepting that we have life and are here now.

In someone that has lost a limb they can or will still have phantom limbs, there are real and part of the body model generated by the mind to give us a sense of self and without this we are simply floppy meat. It drives all movement and without it we would be a jellyfish. There are lots of accounts of this fact, I think that the body in the dream world and obe exits is this energy released to a dream state and that again it all happens in our mind.

I had one LD a long time back and I was in the dreamscape and had full control. There was an interesting point where the walls of the world I was in were being pushed in and out like elastic - this was my cat nudging against me in my sleep. So much for leaving the body.

But I still suspect that the input may be at times external but the action takes place in the mind of the dreamer.

For some insights read The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger

But if we are individual units with no interconnections, how do we explain the many cases of knowledge being passed between individuals with no common physical or genetic connection, over long distances and even large gaps of time? Isn't this potentially indicative of a shared pool of knowledge?

If this does occur, some system must exist that stores this information until the new individual is alive and ready to accept it. Does this need to exist in a "spirit world"? No. But that is one explanation. And it happens to match what many people have said they have seen/experienced.

These cases combined with the many cases of hypnotic and juvenile past life and LBL recollections keep pointing me back to a tiered model where we have only individual experiences at one level, at at other levels we all access the same information. And at all levels our experience is realised via our physical senses and brain, and are therefore subject to an unavoidable level of interpretation. From a pure science perspective, it is this interpretation that may cause much the difficulty since it skews all of the data, makes it hard to correlate, and makes it look unreliable (which perhaps it is).

Also the only additional thing to consider with phantom limbs is that perhaps it isn't the brain that is "creating" the limb, but the fact that the associated non-physical limb still exists.

nearly back to where we started now. I still thinks its possible to to get all the past life memories from simply thinking, maybe not at a consious level but just simply thinking. Theres plenty of imput during the day to get all this. Tell me do the past lifers get their info from dreams of does it just come to them?

Phanton limbs - There are a lot of people with missing limbs that have no awareness of the limb until they put the artifical limb on and then the limb becomes part of them and away they go. Sometimes the limb wont go away and other times it wont appear until needed. So awake and consious they get ready for the day by putting the limb on and then filling it as the body model changes

All interesting