Not all of humanity has this gift of uncontrolled mind, in fact, this is real. But this art called Concentration, better known as Raja-Yoga teaches us that this is possible. It is possible to control a machine called Brain by inner Power. So your theory that we do not control what we think is wrong, or what we think in two days or even in a year. Note that I'm not talking about religious theories, but facts belonging to a spirituality. Science calls the illusion of free will, spirituality calls it by the mental slavery.
Science isn't concerned with philosophical questions like free will and determinism. Science isn't concerned with anything. Science observes. Science impassively, disinterestedly notes the things that we can empirically test over and over again. Numbers, data. It doesn't ask, "Why do humans exist?" It asks, "What causal factors led to the existence of humans?"
We use reason and science and apply these tools to our philosophies to answer questions like "What is free will?" Scientific inquiry is humanity's best attempt at developing a flawless epistemology. Those who disparage science are either ignorant of terminology or intentionally deluding themselves.
Surely you must realize you're being incomprehensible, Z0rb. Citing esotericism without explanation is the exact opposite of debate: it's dogma. Hey, you know what? The ancient tradition of Yaba-yaba-yaba has led me to realize the true nature of human beings: we don't have free will!
See how this argument can be made without any effort or genuine attempt at conversation or revelation of the truth? What is this inner "Power"? Are you talking about willpower? Because willpower is a product of and subject to the whims of the brain, the machine. Not the other way around.
If you disagree with me, I would invite you to put a .50 caliber pistol in your mouth and allow a mere shard of metal to disrupt the delicate operations of your neural tissues. Willpower isn't going to do anything to keep you alive or conscious. When something happens to the brain, it changes who you are. Never mind a bullet passing between your cerebral hemispheres and vaporizing your cerebellum; something as small as a nutritional deficiency can radically alter your brain structure and, consequently, your personality, ambitions, thoughts, and perceptions.
Z0rb wrote: It is possible to control a machine called Brain by inner Power.
What made the choice to do that? ;)
I love the long reply and the terse one just the same! :-D
Zorb, if you had read the thread properly, you'd know why will power is not free will. Nobody is denying the 'will' part. We are denying the 'free'. 8-)
I think you realized exactly what it meant by the term science. Well, you might be correct in your assessment, but also have in mind that Raja Yoga is an occult science. If I say you that it’s possible to read minds of others and feel what others feel, you'll say that this is something invalid, something related to dogmas and I can accept that, because there is no scientific evidence that could prove it. But if I tell you that telepathy is possible between brain and computer you have better accepted this concept? The brain is electrical and when an electron accelerates, emits electromagnetic radiation and this set of processes can be understood by computers. Therefore, a computer can now decipher the brain, not the mind, to create real images of our thoughts.
deschainXIX wrote: When something happens to the brain, it changes who you are. Never mind a bullet passing between your cerebral hemispheres and vaporizing your cerebellum; something as small as a nutritional deficiency can radically alter your brain structure and, consequently, your personality, ambitions, thoughts, and perceptions.Image This is also true, we really depend on the brain to be normal human beings. It is also true that it has been proved that there is a part of the brain where memory dwells and this area is explored, some say that it is possible to implement memory in the human brain, as in the movie "Matrix" when Neo decides to learn arts martial, and in that respect, yes.. We can say that the "Free Will" is questionable and false. But my point here is that as a human being, with a totally perfect brain and without "failures" we have the power of choice. We are not robots, nor are programmed to react repeatedly the same way. We are rather influenced by marketing.
HAGART wrote:
Z0rb wrote: It is possible to control a machine called Brain by inner Power.
What made the choice to do that? ;) To me, the thought is not part of brain, though often be influenced by it. The mind is a machine, all the conscious mind so binds to brain and science simply has methods to explore the brain and that to me is something great, because we understand more and more the puzzle.
Enra Traz wrote: I read everything, and one of the reasons for not participating in more threads is for this reason. The forum is full of good information and this requires time to read all…
PS: After I answered I saw that you have spoken and have developed an opinion on the subject in others threads intelligently. I believe I am not adding anything new to you. I will just leave what had answered you.
Saying, "There's nothing wrong with my brain," is equivalent to saying, "There's nothing wrong with my cardiovascular system." There is no absolute health-sickness dichotomy, like a switch indicating you're either "broken" or "perfect," but rather a spectrum between the two. Even the healthiest people alive have something wrong with their bodies, or something that is not "optimal." The brain is a sponge of tissues, and simply having a "functional" one does not mean you are an autonomous individual who is free from the hegemony of physicality. You and I make different choices because we have different brains.
Parts of your brain are more developed than mine, and parts of mine yours. Can either of us be said to possess a "totally perfect brain"? What is the meaning of this phrase?
It would be erroneous to say that we both have "totally healthy brains"--the implication of which is that our brains are identical--and thus are independent of them, acting as our true "selves" would do if we were not limited by a defunct brain.
It's always good to supplement your intellectual diet with some ambiguity: [i]De omnibus dubitandum est[/i].
(I apologize for my abundant use of quotation marks in this post. So many absurd phrases being used! :lol: )
De omnibus dubitandum est 'everything must be doubted'. Christopher Hitchens made good use of this reasonable dictum in his Letters to a Young Contrarian. I am feeling nostalgic about that book. It was a good read, deschainXIX. We had some good discussions about it. :)
I've just been listening to the latest debate on free will between Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett. (Free Will Revisited.) It's more sensible than their last exchange in written format. They actually agree more than they disagree.
Dennett agrees with Harris that the libertarian free will does not exist. But the issue arose from the fact that Dennett was defining free will in an unconventional way---different to what most people have in mind. (Bloody Dennett!)
Basically, Dennett said that a rock, as opposed to a human being, has no free will because it does not have the power to follow through with an action when presented with multiple-choice scenarios. A human has the potential or ability to move in many different ways; hence, Dennett argues, it is an organism with a higher degree of freedom---it has more leeway for action where an inanimate object has none.
Obviously, Sam Harris already knew this. But Harris would say that we are still constrained by our biochemistry which plays a role in unconscious decision making, and, needless to say, cannot act upon all scenarios available---we can only take one path whose determination is in the power of none other than the impersonal universe itself.
The conversation is constructive and educational for the listener. It is worth checking out. :-)
https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/free-will-revisited
I didn't listen to that Podcast, but this happened to show up when viewing my posts, and I'm in a thinking mood.
Do ants have free will? I would say no. They are mere robots, influenced by pheromones. Ants are not a single being, but you must observe the entire colony to see the true life form. Does the queen ant (or queen bee or queen termite) have free will? That is an interesting thought. What influences them?
I regard my mind as a beehive of activity involving billions of cells. My brain is an ant colony if you will. It's also like a collection of neural impulses and looks like a lightning storm and nobody can predict where and when each strike will hit. It seems random and unfathomable to predict, but it's possible.
I think you can predict where every lightning strike will happen with the right technology, and one example is a clock tower in 1955 which was well documented in the 80's. But seriously, if you knew every single variable involved, you could predict everything, and that goes for our own behavior dictated by a lightning storm of ideas, and a single queen bee, perhaps the pituitary gland, controlling it all.
I bet a super computer could predict everything you will do in life, and some even speculate it's already happened and we are just "SIMS" in a virtual reality.
Food for thought.
Summerlander wrote: Well done for finding that!
Thanks! I might need a higher power reading glasses now :mrgreen:
What happened to Enra and Deschain (aka, squid)? Are they your personal friends? I realized at some point that Deschain is just a youngster. I wish that they would come back because they are a good community for you.
Maybe SleepyKitty has some simlarities to me. Kitty I saw is young too like Deschain, but likewise seems very mature.
Dane, you can come back from the abysss now. Are you allowed in your part of the world to BBQ pork over real wood/charcoal? What is your favorite cut?
Although i am a born dutchman, i currently live in Belgium with my wife, so yeah, we are "allowed" to BBQ pork. Although i must add, considering the amount of islamic refugee's, i don't know for how long :lol: naah, just joking. :P
I love most of the pork's delicious meat, but a big fat piece of tenderloin, you may wake me for that! :mrgreen:
:lol: :)
I like the ribs or shoulder/ butt steaks. If I start with the loin in aluminum foil to retain moisture, it can end up very good too.
Pilgrim wrote: I like the ribs or shoulder/ butt steaks. If I start with the loin in aluminum foil to retain moisture, it can end up very good too.
It can end even better. ;) i have never tries this on a BBQ, which i will now that i think of it, but you primarily use the oven. first get yourself a big single piece per person. rather a chubby piece then a streched one. shortly fry it in a pan so ALL sides get a good burn. now you slice a cut in the middle, all the way through. now stick a slice of cheese through the cut. maybe you want to add more to the festivall, i prefer to add bacon. 8-) wrap it in aluminiumfoil and place it in a preheated oven on 200 celcius.
once on your plate, Un autre exemple des triomphes culinaires.
and vegetarian's claim their plants are just as yummy as meat.... HAAAAH!! :lol: :lol:
it takes about 5minutes of effort, the oven does the rest. ;)
Pilgrim wrote: What happened to Enra and Deschain (aka, squid)?
Enra was my personal 'John Titor' alter ego. She was a he and a me as part of a time-traveling prank. She gone back to the future but she may return soon ... :mrgreen:
The squid has a mind of his own, a free will I do not possess for he is his own unpredictable person. Quantum statistics dictate, on Heisenberg's uncertainty, that he's converted to Mormonism.
Are they your personal friends? I realized at some point that Deschain is just a youngster. I wish that they would come back because they are a good community for you.
I miss the squid. It had plenty of ink to offer. 8-)
Maybe SleepyKitty has some simlarities to me. Kitty I saw is young too like Deschain, but likewise seems very mature.
I'd love to meet this cat. :-D
Dane, you can come back from the abysss now. Are you allowed in your part of the world to BBQ pork over real wood/charcoal? What is your favorite cut?[/quote]
I love pork. Dane, about the Muslims ... don't let them! ;-)
I will definitely try Dane's technique for the loin. Sounds good! :!:
I saw an article for a vegan dinner in my area recently. They make fake BBQ beef brisket, which, the thought of, makes me want to vomit. We need to make a fake broccoli stalk out of real meat instead.
Pilgrim wrote: I will definitely try Dane's technique for the loin. Sounds good! :!:
I saw an article for a vegan dinner in my area recently. They make fake BBQ beef brisket, which, the thought of, makes me want to vomit. We need to make a fake broccoli stalk out of real meat instead.
It will be wonderfull 8-) I have never read a single word of a vegan article before and i don't plan to do so either. :lol: Just the idea alone is just too much for me to handle! :lol:
Summerlander wrote: I love pork. Dane, about the Muslims ... don't let them! ;-) Mwa i don't actually feel threathend by the whole situation. :P
Pilgrim wrote: What happened to Enra and Deschain (aka, squid)?
Enra was my personal 'John Titor' alter ego. She was a he and a me as part of a time-traveling prank. She gone back to the future but she may return soon ... :mrgreen:
The squid has a mind of his own, a free will I do not possess for he is his own unpredictable person. Quantum statistics dictate, on Heisenberg's uncertainty, that he's converted to Mormonism.
Are they your personal friends? I realized at some point that Deschain is just a youngster. I wish that they would come back because they are a good community for you.
I miss the squid. It had plenty of ink to offer. 8-)
Maybe SleepyKitty has some simlarities to me. Kitty I saw is young too like Deschain, but likewise seems very mature.
I'd love to meet this cat. :-D
Dane, you can come back from the abysss now. Are you allowed in your part of the world to BBQ pork over real wood/charcoal? What is your favorite cut?
I love pork. Dane, about the Muslims ... don't let them! ;-)
ISIS, as merely an example of the human condition, I would not hesitate for a second--it is evil. I would not hesitate to give the message that they should and must repent from their evil and would urge them to turn to accept my understanding of God and Christ.
So about Buddhism. My wife has a background in Buddhism as a child. She has thoroughly renounced such way in favor of the gospel of Christ. She argues convincingly to me against it. I believe her, although I am biased because she is attractive to me :D .
My personal conversation with a Buddhist follows. (Yes, I am aware that it does not necessarily represent all Buddhists.). The Buddhist did assuredly tell me that evil and the material world is an illusion. So, I said, the car sitting there is not real? She advised, if you believe it is not there, it is not. I said to her, a car driving towards you, you will be hit if you do not move. It does not matter, said I, what you believe. If the car is coming toward you, you must move or you will perish.
The belief that evil and reality are illusions is not what I believe is true. I am not a good candidate for Buddhism. It is definitely not wife approved.
I'm not Buddhist actually, and think even that train of thought is fraught with hypocricy. I'm a sick bastard who eats dead animals. I'm pure evil!
ISIS is sick and twisted, I won't deny that. However the bar can be moved, not set in stone. It's an illusion. I like to understand by examining everything in the polar extremes. Mad Max: Fury Road, was a great movie that was set in a post apocolypic world where rules are thrown out the car window. It made me think alot. It's a good movie.
I have to point to this message for now, just thinking.
One thing we need to work on is helping you put quotes in the same message, not separately. I can't explain the Universe and our emotions or beliefs, but I can help you with that. :D
I'd like to make a relevant distinction here. From the anthropic principle, the world is an illusion but it also exists. With this statement, I wish to emphasise the fact that an illusion is not something that doesn't exist. An illusion is simply something that isn't what it appears to be. The illusion, therefore, is something real which makes an appearance.
For instance, the couch appears to be solid. But this is an illusion. When I sit on it, I am actually hovering a few millimicrons above it due to repellent forces. The object, in actuality, is mostly empty space. To conclude, we should avoid oncoming cars that could potentially hit us because they are real---even if they, as material masses, are not how we perceive or believe them to be. Free will, on the other hand, is not even an illusion---it simply doesn't exist.
If we are to impugn modern Buddhism, I believe criticising their view that reality is an illusion simply won't do. They actually got that part right and it is the only religion I know which honestly addresses the nature of the human mind (at least from the foundational teachings of the Buddha). And if we address the world of perceptions, as its doctrine encourages us to do, we come to the conclusion that it's all we have. The world doesn't look like anything until it's observed.
The world's appearance depends on who or what is perceiving it. Congenital achromats might believe the world is devoid of colour (if they think there is nothing wrong with them) in contrast to a bumble bee who will perceive a multicoloured environment including ranges of ultraviolet light invisible to every human being.
As far as we're aware, we could be brains in a vat transcribing electrical impulses into a fake reality which are fed to us by evil scientists or A.I. (like in 'The Matrix'). Buddhists could choose to believe this without evidence (they don't necessarily, of course) and it would be no more preposterous than the belief that Jesus Christ was simultaneously the son of God and God incarnate here on Earth.
Yes, Hagart, I am in desperate need of your technical training. I would be so happy if you would email me or post in off topic.
So, as to "illusion," none of us have problem with realizing that "solid" objects are mostly empty space. My conversation concerned the belief that the mind can bend a spoon and such things. You know, like Matrix and Star Wars kind of powers.
As I said, Buddhists have a wide variety of beliefs. Most recently, my wife became intense again when a Buddhist monk approached one of her friends and began to prophesy that her friend is pregnant, will be a boy, and other pronouncements.
I have read certain literature that the Buddhists put out. I believe that one was What Buddhists Believe and the other was The Buddha and His Teachings.
My wife is of Asian background and has personal knowledge of Buddhism for religion and for culture. I believe her. As I said, I am biased. You are just not sexy enough, Summerlander.
Edited for grammar--your to you are. Added citation to second book.
Yes, sex appeal is paramount ... :lol:
Indeed! :mrgreen:
HAGART wrote: One thing we need to work on is helping you put quotes in the same message, not separately. I can't explain the Universe and our emotions or beliefs, but I can help you with that.
Pilgrim wrote: Yes, Hagart, I am in desperate need of your technical training. I would be so happy if you would email me or post in off topic.
First hit the reply button, then find the relevant text you want to address below the draft you are writing. It scrolls down to the last 10 messages. When you find the text, highlight it, and then hit the quotes button [ " ] at the top of the respective message. It will paste it in your message with the proper BBCode to quote it. Hitting the quote button on the original message will quote the entire message.
I think you knew that already, but what you may not realize is that you can then type below that quote before sending the message, and even repeat this process several times before sending. If you want to see what your message will look like, press PREVIEW before you SUBMIT.
Another way to quote is to press the QUOTE button above between UNDERLINE and CODE. You can also type out he BBCode and write (quote="NAME") message (/quote), where parenthesis ( ) are replaced by brackets [ ]. This is more advanced for expert quoters.
Example:
SexySummer wrote: Yes, sex appeal is paramount ...
Now I wonder what will happen if I quote within a quote! I have never done that before and let's see what happens.
ME wrote:
ME2 wrote: This is a quote within a quote. > ME3 wrote:
Oh yea, I remember doing this before. You can only have a maximum of 3 quotes in each other.
I hope you found this course in quoting helpful.
You're a genius, Hagart ... because you called me 'sexy'. :mrgreen:
Without reading through the comments (although I might sometime because I'm a sucker for these kind of topics), I voted no. My reason's seen from a socological perspective, that a person's will's been determined by the cause of other people's actions (also words) - your upbringing, surroundings, habit, culture etc.
You pretty much got the gist. The argument for determinism is obvious, really. If you wish to hone this argument further, I recommend Free Will by Sam Harris. You will love it! 8-)