For over 1,000 years, the Tibetan Buddhists have been practicing lucid dreaming as a means of approaching enlightenment. In this pursuit, they have developed elaborate techniques for inducing lucidity. Some of these are esoteric beyond the capacity of the uninitiated Western mind to conceive, let alone practice. However, others bear a striking resemblance to the techniques now employed by Western oneironauts, for example, frequent reflection throughout the day on the dreamlike nature of reality.

We are very grateful to the Fetzer Institute, which has provided us with funding to investigate the value of ancient Tibetan lucid dreaming induction techniques in the West. One such avenue which has been little explored to date is that of posture during sleep. We have conducted a few NightLight experiments over the years in this area. However, the number of participants has been too small to allow reliable conclusions. Thus, we are once more offering an experiment investigating sleep posture and nasal laterality (an ancient Yogic technique for influencing states of mind), combined this time with the extraordinarily powerful napping technique of inducing lucid dreams.

Thus, this experiment has two goals. One is to further refine the nap technique, which we have found to be the most effective of all for inducing lucid dreams. This study will help establish whether 30 or 60 minutes of wakefulness inserted in the latter part of a night's sleep is more likely to lead to lucidity. Second, we wish to clarify the results of a previous NightLight experiment on nasal laterality, gender and lucid dreaming. Some Tibetan lore suggests that men and women should sleep on opposite sides, because their energy channels are reversed. We would like to find out if this is fact or superstition.

We have made this experiment as simple as possible so that more of you will participate. By using naps, we expect to collect a lot more lucid dreams than in previous attempts, and that's good news for participants as well! Please join us in this endeavor and help us bring Tibetan Dream Yoga to life in the West.

If you are interested in participating, please request a copy of the experiment via email by emailing files@lucidity.com with "send LR3060.pdf" in the subject field. (Without the quote marks, and nothing else.) The Subject line should look exactly like this:

Subject: send LR3060.pdf

If you have questions about the experiment, please check the Lucidity Institute Forum in this area. You may post to the Experiments in Lucid Dreaming discussion area even if you are not a Lucidity Institute member.

Two questions:

• When is the due date on these?
• Will using a NovaDreamer during the naps invalidate the results? (Or in other words, should I, or should I not, use the Nova Dreamer for these?)

DUE DATE We'd like the data back as soon as possible, ideally by December 31, 1999. Please note that unless you have at least one lucid dream during a set of 4 naps, we don't really learn anything about which condition is better. So, if you don't have a lucid dream after 4 naps, please try another set of 4, and if necessary, a total of 12 naps.

USING NOVADREAMERS ETC Please do not use NovaDreamers or other devices during the nap part of the experiment. If you want to use the NovaDreamer during the first part of the night, that's fine, as long as you use it on EACH of the 4 nights. You can use the ND to wake you from REM to help dream recall before doing the nap part of the experiment.

Stephen

I tried a few times to get the file to participate in the experiment. Each time the reader program said the file was damaged. Would someone who has successfully opened the file please send it as a text file attachment to kat@games-usa.com? I very much want to participate!

Kat,

I think the problem is that you probably have an old version of Acrobat Reader. (What version and platform are you using? i.e., Windows 95, Mac, etc.?) Anyway, a text file is no good. That's why we don't just have it online as a web page. Get a free copy of Acrobat Reader 4.0 at: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html

Hope this helps.

SLB

Bonjour, when I requested the file, I got back a mail containing binaries (that is, binaries directly in the mail without beeing encoded 7 bits! ouch!). At the end of the binary portion, there was an encoded section (not as an attachment) that I was able to decode manually, strange.

Regarding the experiment, mostly all the time I was able to induce a LD from the waking state (after a nap or in the middle of the night) was when I was lying on my back. In fact, for me, resting on my left or right side is a way to avoid lucidity between waking and dreaming state.

Jocelyn

I have had the same experience with the sleeping posture.

Jocelyn says:

"Regarding the experiment, mostly all the time I was able to induce a LD from the waking state (after a nap or in the middle of the night) was when I was lying on my back. In fact, for me, resting on my left or right side is a way to avoid lucidity between waking and dreaming state. "

As for me, I find it very difficult to fall asleep on my back so 99% of my LDs are in other postures including left and right sides. On the other hand, when I do rarely fall asleep on my back, I frequently have LDs. Clearly, there are individual differences. This is part of the reason for the experiment! So even if sleeping on your back is best for you Jocelyn, we still want to know whether if sleeping on your left or right side makes any difference. In another experiment, following this one, we will compare sleeping on the back to Left and Right Sides. In fact if you want to make a head start on that experiment, you can do a set of 4 naps sleeping on your back for comparison. (Don't forget to do the nasal airflow laterality measurement in that case.)

Stephen

Thanks to Jocelyn for sending me the file in it's proper form. For some reason my email was eating it or something! At any rate, I finally got access to a printer and will begin the experiment tonight. This should be a very interesting one for me! Thanks also to the others who tried to help! If anyone else has done the experiment and found it useful, I'd love to hear from you. Email addy is SylverWolfe@juno.com.

Greetings:

I'm halfway through the 4 sleep cycles in this experiment, and was wondering if it was still on, ie. what the current deadline is.

Best Regards, John.

Greetings All,

My name is Nancy Lund and I am one of the researchers conducting this experiment.

First, I would like to congratulate you on your interest in this experiment. As participants, you are making a great contribution to our knowledge about Tibetan Dream Yoga techniques for Westerners. Please encourage your friends and family to participate, so we will have an even bigger knowledge base. And, who knows, they could become avid lucid dreamers, too!

The current deadline for turning in your data is December 1, 1999. If you can not make this deadline, please email me.

We have had some people return their report forms and they were able to have lucid dreams while doing this experiment. So, yes, it is possible and quite probable for participants to have lucid dreams. I heartily encourage you to continue your efforts and return your results to us.

If you have any questions or comments, please direct them to me at my email address.

Thanks for your interest!

Wishing you lucid dreaming and waking... Nancy

To Nancy Lund. I was unable to activate an email message to you, so I'll ask here.

Will the results of the experiment be made available to all? or will we have to wait for a published paper to appear?

I would have liked to take part in it, but was too busy with work and overseas visitors at that time. I have been practising Tibetan Dream Yoga only for a few months now. After reading Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book, I realised I had practised it many years ago under another meditation program using a very similar night technique. The result at that time was very frequent WILDs during daytime naps. For some reason I stopped practising, and for many years have not had a clear WILD, until now. I attribute the return of the WILD's to my renewed practise of Dream Yoga, only Tibetan rather than Hindu style.

They happen only during daytime, preferrably morning naps, when I am in a dozy, lazy, but not tired frame of mind. I simply lie on my back and drift into a state of consciousnes in between waking and sleeping and just "slip out of my body". I am not practising Dream Yoga techniques at that time, but I'm sure the WILDs result from practising at night,even though the WILDs do not directly arise at that time.

So, because of my small experience with Dream Yoga, I would very much like to know the outcome of the experiment. I am only too eager to improve my control over these experiences, and my understanding of them.

Thanks, Joan

IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO DO THIS EXPERIMENT!

Joan, and any others wondering about this, even though the "deadline" is December 31st, it's not too late to participate. We will still be able to use your data if you get it to us by the end of the year or so.

And Joan, although we will make the results of the experiment available to all, the best way to find out how it works (for you) is to do it! Sometimes individual results are very different from the average group results.

We designed the experiment so that participants would be likely to have lucid dreams while following the procedure. And indeed, the first half-dozen or so participants to turn in their results all had one or more lucid dreams during the experiment!

But we still need more participants, so if you have been thinking about doing so, please begin! Why not tomorrow morning?

Thanks, Stephen

It is now December 10. Are you still looking for participants or has this experiment concluded?

IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE TO DO THIS EXPERIMENT!

Too late will be after you read about the results. That is to say, although we need your data as soon as possible, even if you turn your data in after we have done the initial analysis, we can still add it later. Until, that is, we publish the results. At that point, of course, you would be biased by what you read, and your data would be of uncertain value.

So to reiterate, please start now! We need more data, especially from women. Try to get your data in within a month or so. We will announce when it's too late to do the experiment. The end may be near, but it isn't yet!

Dear Stephen and Nancy, I am very much looking forward to participating in your study. For many years, I have jokingly said that I do not sleep -- I meditate. I consider rest more important than sleep and meditation the best form of rest. If I was to judge my "sleep", I average 2 -3 hours a night and have frequent dreams. I automatically wake up after this interval and am in a semi-aware state, usually induced by laying on my back, but I have noticed different dreams and dream states on right vs. left side. I have also thrown my body out of alignment (literally dislocating my ribs)by doing alternate nostril breathing before comming into full wakefulness. Of course, there is probably special terminology for all of this, so I look forward to participating in your survey. Thank you, Suzi

Hey, i was wondering when the results for the experiment would be availalbe. Also, I would like to know where these would be available. As you mentioned before, the data should be collected by the end of the year i am assuming it is too late for me to participate. I am hoping to see these results and make it easier for me to have a lucid dream

Bill

Dear Bill,

Please see Stephen's message (dated December 10) to all prospective participants (above). I think this will answer your questions. If you have any further questions, please email me.

Thanks for your interest and we look forward to seeing your results... Nancy Lund Researcher

Dear Nicholas,

Thanks for continuing your efforts on behalf of this experiment. My answers to your concerns are as follows:

1. It is better to concentrate your efforts when you have the time and energy to do the experiment, so be patient. I suspect you will discover, like many of those who have already done this experiment, that your perseverance will pay off.

2. This is cold and flu season. Try to do the experiment when you are well. I think you will find you get more results then.

3. You might try putting a pillow barrier on each side of your body to prevent yourself from rolling over during sleep.

Thanks again for doing this experiment. I think you will find it to be a rewarding experience.

If you have any questions, please email me.

Thanks Nancy Lund Researcher

Hello, It's May now and the experiment is over, Is there anything to post regarding the results/previewing a book or article? Visualizing my hands I can accomplish but there is probably more out there. Maybe posture or something can get me over the hump.

Yes, it's May now, but the experiment isn't over until we get enough data, which we haven't yet!

Please read what I said above, it's still valid: IT'S STILL NOT TOO LATE TO DO THIS EXPERIMENT!

Yes, Brian, there is indeed much "more out there" beyond looking at your hands. Try the experiment--you are likely to have a few lucid dreams while doing so. In addition, take a look at the material on our website!

More Light! SLB

Well, now it's July and when I sent an e-mail to the address requesting the document, I received it, so I'm going to assume (uh-oh!) that you're still looking for participants, and I'm going to give it a darn good try! If it is over, oh well, I might learn something from myself anyhow! 8)

Michelle

Dear Michelle and fellow oneironauts,

It's definitely not too late to participate in the "Sleep Posture, Nasal Cycle, and Naps" experiment, as the deadline has been extended! Here's the latest word from Lucidity Institute:

"We would like to have data returned by

November 25, 2000

or as soon thereafter as possible. Several dozen people have turned in their reports so far; most had at least one lucid dream, for several participants, their first ever. This confirms our expectation that doing this experiment is an excellent way to have lucid dreams, and that you don't need to be an expert lucid dreamer to succeed. The more data we have the better we'll be able to reach reliable conclusions, so please contribute. We are especially in need of left handed subjects but if you are right handed, don't let that prevent you from participating!"

So roll over, breathe deeply, and enjoy that numinous nap! Keelin

Is Nap Fest 2000 still ongoing? i'd like to participate if you guys are still accepting data.

• Ryan Hurd

Dear Ryan and dedicated Oneironauts,

While it may have appeared that the last announced deadline for the "Sleep Posture, Nasal Cycle and Naps" experiment read September 2, I'd suggest a second reading of the post just prior to Ryan's -- a sort of reality test, if you will -- just to see if it still reads the same"

Okay, I'll admit to a bit of elf-play here, but indeed, the deadline has been extended and it's now set at NOVEMBER 25, 2000.

And, as Stephen mentioned earlier, WE NEED MORE DATA!! So please begin tonight! The sooner we collect enough data, the sooner you will all be able to read the results.

You can request a copy of the experiment via email by emailing files@lucidity.com with "send LR3060.pdf" in the subject field. (Without the quote marks, and nothing else.) The Subject line should look exactly like this:

Subject: send LR3060.pdf

If you have questions about the experiment, please check the Lucidity Institute Forum in this area. You may post to the Experiments in Lucid Dreaming discussion area even if you are not a Lucidity Institute member.

Sweet lucid dreaming & Good Lux to all, Keelin

Dear Oneironauts:

For the last year, Lucidity Institute has offered a version of the experiment investigating sleep posture and nasal laterality (an ancient Yogic technique for influencing states of mind) requiring a series of early morning naps. Although the nap version of the experiment was designed to yield the highest rate of lucid dreaming, it evidently was too difficult for most people to schedule into their busy lives. Thus, they have modified the experiment once again, making it much easier to collect data in the course of one's usual sleeping schedule. If you have already started the previous version (LR3060.pdf) of the experiment, please finish it and send in your results. You may also participate in the new version of the experiment even if you have already completed a previous variation.

The more data, the better, so please give it a try! You'll find all the details at: http://www.lucidity.com/DreamYoga.html

Chances are you'll find this a most rewarding (aka lucid) experience! Keelin

Dreamers,

Here's a ref to a recent scientific piece about dreaming - which mentions lucidity only once, and restricts it to the shamanistic practices of primitive tribes. Bonga-bonga!

www.sciencenews.org/20010811/bob12.asp

How odd that we all know something of vital importance about dreaming which these eminent Professors do not. As Cleopatra once said, "If is not that we are so clever, it's that they are so stupid."

Dream on

Alan T

I have some questions for Stephen LaBerge and/or anyone else involved in conducting this experiment, arising out of my participation and our e-mail correspondence. I'm hoping you'll answer them here as I've been endorsing this experiment elsewhere in the forum and there may be others who are interested.

• Do you still need data? (If so, why not update your web page? It still says you hope to be done by the end of July.)

• If preconceptions about sleep posture are likely to affect the outcome, why not query participants regarding this? From the postings throughout this forum, it seems to be pretty common for people to have a favored LD position. I myself started with one and switched to another prior to beginning the experiment, then abandonded any preference during the course of the experiment. Maybe it's not too late to contact all participants and ask if they began with a preference, and/or developed or changed preferences as they participated.

• Why aren't you having participants rate the degree of each LD's lucidity? I know it's probably too late to add this retroactively (although people might be able to re-read and score their own LD accounts), but I'm wondering if there's a reason. See mid-October discussion under "Degrees of Lucidity" elsewhere in this subtopic.

• Is there a reason for not asking people if they're using any LD-inducing device?

To all potential participants, I'll say it again here: If you're interested in increasing your frequency of lucid dreams you might want to try this experiment, as I think the experimental design - which involves waking at intervals and reflecting upon one's dreams - is conducive to lucidity. It's also fun and easy and a chance to contribute to the science of awareness.

Joy

Joy writes on Sunday, Nov 04, 2001 - 10:14 am:

Do you still need data? (If so, why not update your web page? It still says you hope to be done by the end of July.)

Thanks for asking about the experiment. Yes, we still need data. (I look forward to the day I can say we have enough! ;) Web page has been updated. The current (and I hope last) deadline is December 31, 2001. Of course, we need it as soon as possible, and the more data the better.

If preconceptions about sleep posture are likely to affect the outcome, why not query participants regarding this?

Good idea. It certainly is likely to affect individual outcomes, but I was hesitant to put an explicit question in because I didn't want people to think about it if they hadn't already. But a post-experiment questionnaire solves the problem. We will send emails to all participants when we have enough data. ;]

Why aren't you having participants rate the degree of each LD's lucidity?

But we are! It's called "Clarity of Thinking" which clearly ought to correlate with sensible measures of degrees of "lucidity". I have thought quite a lot about how to measure variations in lucidity, and it seems to me that much of the variation is captured by the concept of degree of cognitive clarity, i.e., the extent to which we are free of cognitive errors of the sort described in VARIETIES OF LUCID DREAMING EXPERIENCE and A FOOLS GUIDE TO LUCID DREAMING (both available on the LI website). What do you think this measure leaves out?

Stephen

Stephen, thanks for your response!

I think the term "clarity of thinking" is open to interpretations that don't necessarily intermesh with degree of lucidity.

As you have us rate "clarity of thinking" for each dream regardless of whether it's lucid, I've assumed an interpretation that didn't depend on lucidity was what you had in mind.

Within the context of a non-lucid dream, I can have a wide range of "clarity of thinking" - from vague and confused to highly rational, intuitive and insightful - all without knowing it's a dream.

It's also possible for me to have what I would call a low "degree of lucidity" along with any degree of "clarity of thinking" - for instance, if I realize I'm dreaming and immediately wake up, or realize I'm dreaming and passively (albeit rationally) observe events without exercising will.

And I can also be very lucid - going from scene to scene, trying pre-planned experiments, altering the course of events, avoiding cognitive errors, maintaining and enjoying full awareness of the dream state throughout - and still feel a little confused.

For that matter, I can be wide awake and rate my "clarity of thinking" anywhere from zero to six! Right now I'm about a three-and-a-half and writing this on a quick break from work, so hope my explanation is clear enough -

Joy

Now that I have time and some newly-dreamed examples, I can expand on this a little.

From reading in this forum and from my own experience, I'd propose that what people want in a lucid dream is a confluence of clear cognition, clear volition and clear perception, all with an overarching clear awareness. I'd say all of these are involved in generating, maintaining and appreciating lucidity; all can vary in degree; and any can be absent except awareness.

I dreamed these examples the night after my last posting. In my first dream it was Thanksgiving morning, I was the hostess and I was planning the cooking and cleaning. Anyone who's done that knows it entails a high level of cognition! But nothing was out of the ordinary and I had no awareness that I was dreaming. If wakened right then I'd have given myself a 5 out of 6 for clarity of thinking and a 0 for lucidity.

Then my dad showed up. I remembered he was dead (cognition); realized I was dreaming (awareness, which continued throughout); decided asking people what pies they wanted was irrelevant (cognition); took off flying (volition); saw a very real-looking panel of wood-framed glass windowpanes blocking my path (perception); thought that since I was dreaming it had no substance, and passed through it (cognition); landed in a tall pine (volition) and impulsively tasted a clear, cold, wet icicle at the tip of a branch (perception). At one point while flying I saw my shadow moving along the contours of the ground below me. I thought, "Wow! Hey, LaBerge, how's that for lack of cognitive error?" But that thought was itself a cognitive error, because seeing my shadow was not so much clear cognition as clear perception! Yet I'd rank the dream overall pretty high for lucidity.

After waking up and making notes I was feeling wakeful and so commenced a meditation that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche advocates for entering "clear light sleep" (which he says is usually a more advanced practice), but also just for relaxing and falling asleep - which is all I expected of it. In any case I fell asleep and experienced luminous spaciousness. There was no cognition - no Cartesian "I" to think and therefore be; and no perception - nothing to be perceived; just space, light and awareness. It lasted until it dissolved as a dream dissolves and a "voice" said it was important and I should remember it (which I did, through several lucid and non-lucid dreams that followed before I woke). As this was my first such experience I hesitate to label it but it was consistent with the Tibetans' descriptions of either "clear light sleep" or "clear light dream" in non-dual awareness. Zero for clarity of thinking, 6 for lucidity.

In the lucid dream that followed, I was a passive observer thinking it was a symbolically significant dream when an active dream character read a quote from what he described as a "luminous blue book." For me that constituted a special order of awareness, so even though the dream lacked volition I'd give it a high score for lucidity. Of course all of this is totally subjective, as I think it should be: for evaluating the efficacy of any practice, my progress as a beginner is what matters, right?

So there is a difference between thinking and awareness, and thinking is not crucial to lucidity but awareness is. You're aware of this; so, what do you think?

Joy

Joy

I think I'm aware of this, but am I dreaming? Not sure, but still thinking. Cognition seems to work.

Impressive reports.

"...confluence of clear cognition, clear volition and clear perception, all with an overarching clear awareness."

I would subscribe to that, if it only matters for lucidity. But certainly there is an emotional aspect, too, I mean all the adventure, the ecstasy in flying or just being lucid, etc.

"decided asking people what pies they wanted was irrelevant (cognition)"

Didn't that have an emotional aspect, too? :-)

"As this was my first such experience I hesitate to label it but it was consistent with the Tibetans' descriptions of either "clear light sleep" or "clear light dream" in non-dual awareness." Wow. How'd you feel afterwards? I imagine this a very particular experience.

"my progress as a beginner is what matters, right?"

I think, you are a rather "advanced beginner". Your experiences are encouraging!

Thanks for your report

Yours Ralf

Yeah, thanks, Ralf! Positive emotions definitely belong on the list of LD aspects that people seek (and is one of the aspects that the experiment has us rate).

I knew if I threw these ideas out, someone would have something to add - I could have guessed it would be you - you're a good collaborator! Anyone else?

"How'd you feel afterwards?" - Not much feeling involved, just sort of wonderment as I moved on into other dreams. Even more wonderment after I woke up and reflected on it. That's part of why I hesitate to label it. I don't know how it's supposed to feel.

I'm really glad you find my experiences encouraging. I'm always uncertain as to whether I should be posting more of them, or less - I take up a lot of space in here as it is - it's so enjoyable sharing ideas with fellow explorers.

Here's what I find encouraging - uh-oh, I REALLY hesitate to say this after maintaining skepticism about reincarnation all my life - but, I've been considering the possibility that I got started on all this in an earlier life and now am reviewing, and taking up where I left off. If so, what skills we manage to learn this time around, we get to keep for next time - isn't that an appealing prospect?

Joy

Joy,

I, for one, enjoy your posts and hope you post more of them, rather than less.

Concerning what you said: "and so commenced a meditation that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche advocates for entering 'clear light sleep'" would you describe that meditation (preferably), or let me know what book to look it up in?

Thanks, Mary

Thanks, Mary!

I couldn't describe the visualization in here - although the practice is fairly simple the description is very long and involved and wouldn't make sense out of context. It's on pages 159-162 of The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, which I think is an excellent book and well worth owning. I refer to it often.

If you're thinking of doing the experiment that's the topic of this thread, disregard the book's recommendations about sleep position! All the dream yoga guys seem to have varying recommendations anyway; and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche actually recommends different positions for different phases of sleep and emotional qualities of dream. That's one of the things that's fascinating about this experiment: is there really a position that in itself facilitates lucidity, or is it a matter of conditioning or expectations?

Joy

Unanswered question for Stephen from my post of November 4, above:

• Is there a reason for not asking people if they're using any LD-inducing device?

I get the impression that a lot of people in this forum use a NovaDreamer, and that those who do, use it not consistently but intermittently. Is it effective enough to be a significant variable in an experiment like this? (And, if not....)

Your Friendly Devil's Advocate,

;) Joy

Hi, Joy

Stephen mentioned (in a mail concerning the experiment), that it would be best to either use the ND for all experimental nights or to not use it. He is aware of this possible influences.

Your friendly inquisitor ;-]

Thanks, Ralf. But I don't see anything about it in the "Experiment Instructions" I got from the web site.

Still logging data,

Your fearless heathen,

Friendly and inquisitive,

?;)

Joy

Glad to see I don't have to rely on my own anecdotes to demonstrate that "clarity of thinking" can be similar in both dreams and waking experience regardless of whether the dreams are lucid - the research has been done. This from the LI website is Stephen LaBerge's abstract for a talk on dreaming and consciousness:

"Dreaming experience is commonly viewed as qualitatively distinct from waking experience. Dreams are often believed to be characterized by lack of reflection and inability to act deliberately and with intention. However, this view has not been based on equivalent measurements of waking and dreaming state experiences. To achieve equivalence, it is necessary to evaluate waking experience retrospectively, in the same way that dreams are evaluated. In a recent study of this type (5), we found that compared to waking experiences, dreaming was more likely to contain public self consciousness and emotion, and less likely to contain deliberate choice. But it is notable that significant differences between dreaming and waking were not evident for other cognitive activities, and none of the measured cognitive functions were typically absent or rare in dreams. In particular, nearly identical levels of reflection were reported in both states."

(5) The study cited is LaBerge et al. 1995 "Cognition in dreaming and waking"

Joy

The inquisitive heathen strikes again ?;)

OK I know normal dreams with a lot of cognitive activity. Getting lucid is a cognitive act, a kind of meta - cognition. But lucidity can be more or less clear. In my report form I have to rate clearness of thought AND have to say, whether the dream was lucid. What do you miss? (Or did I miss something?)

The friendly inquisitor Ralf

Hi - I was referring back to the postings above from Noveber 4, 6 and 10. My question to Stephen was why he wasn't having us rate degree of lucidity; his answer was that he thought "clarity of thinking" covered that; and my reply is that one can have clear thinking without being lucid at all, as his own research shows. I think rating degree of lucidity separately might better capture that "meta-cognition."

More curious than critical, I think it's a great experiment and am still trying to recruit more subjects.

Heathen, heretic and part-time hedonist,

Joy

Ralf and Joy:

I am delighted to see such thoughtful discussion. Thanks!

You both are right, and you both seem to have missed something (unless I have too ;). We ask for both LUCIDITY (yes, no) and CLARITY OF THOUGHT (0-5) for the reason, as just about everybody has pointed out already in this discussion, that CLARITY can be high even in a non-lucid dream. But the other side of this is that a nominally 'lucid' dream can have very low clarity indeed (probably not '0' because the dreamer has gotten at least one thing right).

So again, I believe that 'degrees of lucidity' is best measured by degrees of clarity (or inversely, freedom from cognitive error), given lucidity. Clear? ;) Now it may be the case that the concept 'degrees of lucidity' has more than one dimension, and hence we would need more than one variable to capture the concept fully. That's why I asked in my posting of Nov 6th above, "What do you think this measure leaves out?" (If you think something is left out, the answer would ideally take the form of proposing a particular scale in addition to 'clarity of thinking'.)

Towards more charity and clarity! (whatever these may turn out to mean... ;) Stephen

Good to hear from you, Stephen. Have you read the entries under the subtopic "Degrees of lucidity: lucid or not"? The ones from late October, through about the 28th, may be especially relevant in terms of dimensions of lucidity beyond the cognitive.

Joy

Stephen, here's a further attempt to clarify my thinking on this!

I think thinking is ony one aspect of awareness. I think awareness includes creativity, volition, perception, emotion and intuition, and some other things with which I don't have much experience, such as psi phenomena and spiritual insights. There are those who say that the most expansive forms of awareness have little to do with thinking and that thinking in fact gets in the way of real clarity - a form of clarity that can also be achieved in dreams.

From reading this forum I think that people are looking for all these aspects of awareness, to varying degrees, in a high-quality lucidity experience. Your dream report form touches on perception ("visual vividness") and on emotion in terms of positive and negative. I think people value the other aspects of awareness I mentioned too.

Volition is a prominent concern. What if (like night before last) I'm fully aware that I'm dreaming and thinking with perfect clarity, "Since I'm dreaming I ought to be able to get out of this closed corridor in any number of ways," but I find myself still in it and soon wake up? My thinking was perfectly clear but I could neither get where I wanted to go nor remain in the dream for long. I'd give that a low lucidity rating despite high clarity of thinking. Last night I was happily skipping from scene to scene, enjoying all kinds of odd and silly experiences, successfully doing things I'd planned before going to sleep and others that occurred to me on the spot, and reveling in lucidity without doing much thinking at all. Not a high degree of cognition, but a satisfying degree of lucidity.

I think a rating of "degree of lucidity" would be subjective and individualistic, like all the ratings on your form. It would depend on the individual dreamer's experience and aspirations, as I imagine it should. Here are some examples of how I might rate my dreams' lucidity, aside from clarity of thinking:

0 = no awarenes that I'm dreaming. 1 = wake up as soon as I become aware that I'm dreaming. 2 = aware that I'm dreaming but don't act on it; or, unable to accomplish what I have in mind. 3 = able to accomplish some things I set out to do but not very successfully. 4 = move from scene to scene, accomplish several pre-planned and/or spontaneous acts, enjoying the feeling of lucidity. 5 = same as 4 plus any one or more of these: a particularly peaceful, loving or exhilarated feeling, compassionate actions, extremely sharp sensory perceptions, creative ideas that I can bring into being when awake, a sense of unusual insight, the sense that the dream comes from a source larger than my little ego self, precognition, telepathy. 6 = the "dreams of clarity" or "clear light dreams" variously described in the dream yoga books; dreams involving pure awareness without any familiar kind of cognition, emotion or perception; and anything else way beyond my current range of experience....

I hope you don't mean by your sign-off that you think this discussion has been lacking in charity! I don't mean to be critical. I'm just new to this, fascinated and awfully curious. You've been very generous in taking the time to reply. Thanks!

Joy

Stephen -

Well, that wasn't quite accurate: I DO mean to be critical, in the spirit of a would-be collaborator who'd like to see you get the most out of this research.

...so, to answer your question in the format in which you asked it: I agree that clarity of thinking, given lucidity, does a good job of capturing one aspect of lucidity: avoidance of cognitive error. I do think lucidity has other dimensions as well, and more than one variable would be needed to capture them. I mentioned several above, but a form that tried to include them all would be unworkably long. If I were to add only one variable it might be "volition."

But instead, I'd rather rate "degree of lucidity" on a 0-6 scale like everything else. Dreamers all seem to have a concept of degrees of lucidity; self-rating, they would express their own subjective satisfaction with the degree they attained, taking into account whatever variables are important to them.

If the goal is to identify practices that optimize lucidity for the individual, and if people commonly feel varying levels of satisfaction with the degree of lucidity they obtain, then I'd think this would be an easy enough way to capture that. What do you think?

Dream excerpt from 13 November:

... My supervisor had asked me, "You are working on getting your degree, aren't you?' and I'd realized I'd been out of school for ' a year? Two years? ' and had enrolled in classes without ever showing up for them. I was pretty worried about how I was going to work this out.

So I took off flying to the university with the intent to find an academic advisor. On the way ' it was a long flight over the city ' I gradually remembered that I was last in school in 1993, this was 2001, and I did get my degree [biology]. I thought to myself, "So maybe this means you should be considering getting a degree in something else. You're into that lucid dream research; instead of sitting back and critiquing LaBerge's experimental design, why not get your master's or doctorate in ' what would it be? ' psychology, I guess. But you really don't want to go live in the city again, and you have so much to do already'. Community college extension? Nah, they're not going to offer anything but introductory courses. Correspondence courses? Seminars? Could ask my psychologist acquaintances but probably they'd only know about courses in clinical psychology'.'

And so on, with a fair degree of cognitive clarity but not much lucidity, I flew my way to an academic advisor's office....

[but didn't get any advice - got any?]

Joy

Dear Joy, dear Stephen, dear fellow oneironauts!

I've just browsed through the postings in the LI - Experiments thread. I took another look into VOLDE and our discussion in the Degrees of Lucidity thread. Especially my translation of Tholey's aspects of lucidity.

We had the question: Joy: "Why aren't you having participants rate the degree of each LD's lucidity?" Stephen: " But we are! It's called "Clarity of Thinking..." " ...What do you think this measure leaves out?"

My point is: Maybe there is no way to rate lucidity. As said in VOLDE, II. C. Lucid Dreams:

"There appear to be at least three essential components to the lucid dream context, each operating at a specific psychological level: (1) a "reference to state" operating as a metacognitive context, (2) a semantic contextual framework operating at the level of declarative knowledge, expectation and belief, and (3) a goal-option framework operating at the level of effector action."

In my words it would mean: Either we know, we are dreaming or not. Either we refer to our state of mind, or we don't do it. There is no possible rating. It is on and off. Lucidity is an on and off phenomena. What more metacognitive can we say, than: "I'm dreaming"? If you say: "I'm dreaming and my body lies in bed" it's not really a higher metacognition, but just to include memory. If you are saying: "I'm dreaming and therefor you are my dreamcharacter" it is deduction (a kind of cognition), not higher metacognition. If you are tacitly lucid, you maybe have no connection of metacognition and "normal" cognition/deduction or not enough emotional / awareness energy or your expectations don't support the LD context. If you are pre - lucid, you recognise something is strange, but you don't do the jump to metacognition.

So, why do we speak of "degrees of lucidity"? I think, if we want to create consent, we have to define our terms more precisely. My impression is, that Stephen (and Don) defines lucidity (in this part of text) simply as the reference to state (metacognition). Once the lucid context has been activated (by metacognition), what we call "degrees of lucidity" seems for me to be the degree, in which other functions like perception, "normal" cognition, memory, emotion, volition are working together with the LD context, with the semantic framework and the goal - option framework. If you look at Tholey's aspects of lucidity, you may find that co-operation, too.

His point #1: "Being clear about the state of mind. (you know exactly, if it is dreaming or waking)" relates to Stephen's "metacognition".

His point #2:"Being clear about free personal choice (you don't have to flee your nightmare - characters, but can take different decisions) This relates to the declarative knowledge and/or goal - option framework. It is the point of dream - control. And as we had worked out in previous discussions, lucidity is not the same, as dream control. You can have control, but no lucidity (controlled NDs). You can have lucidity, but no control (the witnessing dreams)

His point #3" Being clear in conscience (there is no dreamlike confusion or dullness of conscience)" I think this relates to clarity of thinking (or to level of awareness?)

His point #4 "Perception is clear (you smell, taste, hear, see and feel as in waking life)" Here you see a variable, that is (nearly) independent from #1.

Tholey's #5 "Being clear about waking life (you know exactly, who you are, what you did the previous day and even what you planned for this dream)" This is an example of many different factors working together.

From this point of view, I shouldn't speak of "aspects of lucidity" or degrees of lucidity, like I did, but of lucidity and how the lucid context is supported by or including other contexts, how it corresponds to or models other operations.

See VOLDE: "The context hierarchy of the waking [and dreaming] personality is composed of many relatively distinct contexts which correspond to, or are a computational way to model, the sensory, perceptual, attentional, mnemonic, cognitive, metacognitive, goal and effector operations carried out unconsciously by the nervous system, but which in turn condition conscious experience."

What I mean is that the experience of lucid dreaming is variable (that is the subject of VOLDE). And it seems to me, that clarity of thought is the crucial variable, that makes other contexts and operations available or more likely, i.e. like waking life memory, memory of planned tasks, volition (dream control). And even emotion may become clearer and more vivid in the presence of a clear mind: Clarity of thinking increases the richness of the LD. Maybe the inverse is true, too: High emotions may lead to metacognition, extraordinary volition may lead to lucidity, thoughts become clearer in a serene emotional atmosphere.

The experience of lucid dreaming is of course more colourful, than a six point scale can tell. But for the use of the LI - experiment regarding sleep position, nasal cycles and naps it may be enough to rate lucidity (yes/no) and clarity of thinking to get the essential factors.

Other scales could include amount of volition (like Joy suggests), clarity of perception, intensity (or subtlety) of emotions, etc. I think, it is the combination of reference to state - I'm dreaming - and all the other human abilities (and hindrances), that make up what we use to call "degrees of lucidity". I'm for a more differentiated use of the term "lucidity" in the sense, that I suggest it should only relate to the metacognitive act of realising: "I'm dreaming!"

I hope, this metacognition will work better and better for all of us!

Yours Ralf

"Lucid dreaming is not in itself the goal of practice.... There are may different levels of lucid dreaming. At the superficial level, one may realize that one is in a dream but have little clarity and no power to affect the dream. Lucidity is found and then lost, and the logic of the dream prevails over the conscious intent of the dreamer. At the other end of the continuum, lucid dreams can be extraordinarily vivid, seemingly 'realer' than ordinary waking experience. With experience, greater freedom is developed in the dream and the boundaries of the mind are overcome, until one can do literally anything that one can think of to do.... Most importantly, in dream the mind's limitations can be challenged and overcome. As they are, we develop flexibility of mind, and this is most important." - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, p.120

In this view "clarity" and "power to affect the dream" share importance; indeed thinking and volition go hand-in-hand at the end of the continuum at which "one can DO literally anything that one can THINK of to do."

This particular experiment intends to test a Tibetan dream yoga belief/practice regarding the effect of sleep position on lucidity. Probably our question ought to be, what exactly are the Tibetan dream yogis intending to accomplish by using a certain sleep position? Is sleep position supposed to merely increase the likelihood of becoming aware that one is dreaming, and from there the practitioner uses other means to develop the important abilities? If so, a simple binary 0/1 off/on "not lucid/lucid" suffices. Or is sleep position supposed to also help move one further along the continuum toward greater clarity and volition?

More volition to all and to all a good night,

Joy

I just finished my sleep posture experiment. Horay! Can I fax my my Experiment results somewhere & save the cost and hasle of snail mail?

Hi Ted,

Thanks so much for participating in the SPNC&N experiment! You can FAX your report to LI at: 650.321.9967

Sweet dreams, Keelin

Dear Joy Regarding your November 10, 2001 contribution on this topic, which I have just read for the first time: WOW!

Most Sincerely, Tracy