I haven't been around in a while, my waking life has been too crazy and I havn't been putting much attention into my dreams. I'm starting to get back into dreams/OBE's now

I just wanted to express my frustrations in dealing with closed minded Christians. First of all, I am Christian but am more liberal and open-minded than most that I've come across. I belong to a Christian forum and constantly get critisized for my beliefs reguarding lucid dreams, meditation, and out-of-body experiences.

According to them my practice of inducing the hynogogic state (between being awake and asleep) to achieve WILD's and OBE's is anti-Christian, occult, and extremely dangerous. They say it "leaves me open to evil forces". I try to explain to them that it is a natural function of the mind and not evil. They will not, however listen to LOGIC and REASON, and my posts about the subject get deleted. Has anyone else had similar experiences with Christians? I'm about to tear my hair out over this!

Dear Tavis,

It's always uncomfortable to feel criticized or misunderstood about our personal beliefs, especially if we suspect the source of the criticism is based on a lack of knowledge or unexamined fears. But as Stephen LaBerge advises: "Don't get angry. Get lucid!" When you encounter these opinions that differ from your own, how do you respond? What is the tone of your written messages and what insights into the subject are you offering them? If the relationship to the those who are confronting you is important, then you might find it worth the time to explain in a calm manner exactly what lucid dreaming is -- and isn't. I'd suggest using "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" for reference, so that the information you offer is accurate and less personal. If the criticism comes from those who's opinion doesn't really matter to you, then perhaps it's helpful to keep in mind the sage, old saying: "The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on."

Keep your hair -- and dream on! ;) Keelin

WWJD?

(What Would Jesus Dream?)...Sorry, couldn't resist.

Tavis, my mom was very wary herself about my getting involved in LD'ing, especially after I told her I wanted to go to Hawaii for 10 days to study it ("Your father and I are worried that it may be a cult and you could be brainwashed while you are there."). What I did, to set her mind at ease (she and my father are both Christian, bringing me up to respect the belief as well), was to research it online, searching for ANY negative religious attitudes regarding LD'ing. I looked for any inflamtory remarks directed at Dr. LaBerge, any tie-ins to the occult, ANYTHING negative about the subject that the online community had posted. I even did a Yahoo search for "anti-lucid dreaming" and +occult +lucid +dreaming.

Findings? One person on 1 web page somewhere that referenced Dr. LaBerge as their "guru." That title aside (and that person is taking things a bit too far, in my opinion) I found nothing to suggest this is anything more than a healthy way to find out more about what goes on when you sleep!

By the way, I did end up going to Hawaii to study with Keelin and Dr. LaBerge and I'm happy to say there are no pentagrams burned into my forehead and no one forced me to shave my scalp.

Hope this helps.

Hi Keelin

I always am very calm and respectfull in my posts at the Christian forum, and I use scientific data to back up my claims, but still they close their ears. That's what I mean when I say they won't listen to reason. And now if I start any topic about OBE's, meditation, auras, etc. they get locked or deleted. (It's funny how they think auras are evil because paintings of Christ sometimes show a golden aura around His head).

I plan on starting a topic on lucid dreams but I have to go about it very carefully, not mentioning any "new age stuff" as they put it. I will use Dr. LaBerge's book as a reference. I'll let you know how it turns out.

"By the way, I did end up going to Hawaii to study with Keelin and Dr. LaBerge and I'm happy to say there are no pentagrams burned into my forehead and no one forced me to shave my scalp."

LOL!!!

Tavis, are the christian the evangelical kind. I had a similar thing when I was young and I started doing TM....my christian friends didn't like it. Basically if it's not in the bible you don't need it....so it's a waste of time!!

PS....further if it's not in the bible it could be the work of the devil which is worse. Hope I'm not offending anyone it's just my limited experience of the issue.

DISCLAIMER

The Lucidity Institute (TLI) wishes to assert certain legal 'fictions' and appearances in the case of former Dream Camp 'mate Michael Martin (in the Hereafter MM31). First, as MM31 himself admitted, nobody FORCED him to shave his head. Christians are rather divided on the question of Free Will. Some would say that all is predestined by God. Others would say 'Predestination is No Excuse.' Be that as it may...

Finally, at the risk of being excessively intelligible, we have no comment about the pentagram thing: That said, it should be pellucidly clear that neither TLI nor any of its agents known or unknown, living or dead, had anything to do with branding pentagrams on MM31! And besides, even if we did, it wasn't his forehead, anyway. We hope this completely obfuscates the matter.

--Hester Garbledpen, Undersecretary, TLI Legal Sub-Department "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life." "The Devil can quote scripture for his own purposes."

DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER

TLILFSD notes that, through no fault of its own, the Disclaimer lately posted by Ms. Hester Garbledpen of this Sub-Dept. lacked appropriate emoticons (i.e. what is referred to in the trade as 'Winky' or 'Smiley Faces') indicating the position of the tongue regarding the cheek in the herein disclaimed disclaimer.

--Bernhard Gleepest, Chief, TLI Legal Fiction Sub-Dept.

Whoa... you guys are scaring me.

Tavis:

Mssr's Garbledpen & Gleepest may indeed be truly scary, but they also make a good point. No really. They do.

When people base their reality upon one narrow set of beliefs (i.e., believing as true only what has gained mention in the Bible), they commit themselves to doing things like labeling as "cults,' or "the work of Satan" anything that might drag their experience beyond the close horizons of their own ignorance.

Ignorance in the short term is easy and comforting (dare I say blissful?), and people who have chosen to cling to it have a very difficult time dealing with new ideas. So, they attack novel thoughts, and delete suggestions that might potentially force them to think or, worst of all, adjust their beliefs.

How do I deal with this? Honestly, and with admitted shame, I don't. I grew up in a very Catholic family and learned at an early age to keep my own counsel about things I know the people around me do not want to hear. Sure, I want to share my experiences, but if my words only bounce off them and hurtle back at me in flames, then what was the point of sharing?

So, maybe your best bet is to tread lightly with your thoughts. Continue to explore lucidity, and whatever else you want, and certainly share with people who you feel might listen (they don't have to agree, of course!). But don't worry about people who have permanently slammed their minds shut. Even if they're polite and don't delete, they're still probably not listening. ' I guess I would have made a lousy preacher!

If you feel that there are a few (truly christian?) people with potential to be pried from Ignorance's tight grip, then I suggest you fold discussion of your thoughts and ideas into a context they'd be willing to understand. Maybe you could say you're investigating LD's to see why God made them available to us. Maybe you can do a little research of your own: As Owen noted, these people might think "If it's not in the Bible, you don't need it.' So if it IS in the Bible, then it must be important to them. I'll bet dreams are mentioned positively quite a few times in the Bible. Look up the relevant passages, and point them out.

Wishing you the best of luck, and patience, with your topic,

Peter

Hi Peter

Thanks for the advice. I agree completely with what you said.

About Mssr's Garblepen & Gleepest's posts: I'm not sure I understand what they mean. (a lot of unfamiliar terminology) I guess I'm kind of slow at times.

Owen said: "Tavis, are the christian the evangelical kind."

I don't know what that means. They claim to be non-denominational and Protestant. (Does that make sense?)

Tavis,

I'm one evangelical Christian who applauds your efforts. I also work hard at LDOBE (I combine them into one concept), because I truly believe it's a valid pathway to prophecy, as is meditation.

Remind your critics that the Biblical word "SELAH!" means "Meditate on this!", and that true Biblical revelation usually happened in dreams. That should shut'em up!

Paul, I have tried this. They make a distinction between "occult meditation" and "Chistian meditation" where the former is where you clear your mind which leaves it open to "evil forces", and the latter is where you "fill your mind with God thoughts and pray." They also think that the joy you get from OBE's is false and is actually Satan deceiving you.

Tavis, I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe we should start our own Christian soul-travel site.

I have had two very interesting LDOBEs that are pertinent. About 2 months ago I went hunting for God. I entered a church, searched every room, and found not a trace of Jesus anywhere. Interesting, isn't it? Then, just last week I asked to see God face-to-face. Believe it or not, there was a blinding flash of light that literally knocked me on my dream keester. I think I overstepped my limits there.

Paul

What does the dream trace of a dream phrophet look like?

At Stephen and Keelin's request I am posting a photo of myself from Dreamcamp '02 in Hawaii to prove my hair DID in fact remain in tact with my head. As you'll see in this photo, which was taken by fellow dream-camper Stefan, my precious locks were not only spared but wonderfully altered by another dream-camper, Stephanie. This was exactly how I arrived at the Seattle airport the next day, shorts and all...(from the website message board, click on my name where it appears in blue.)

HI, all- I don't want to offend people here, but I would like to make what I feel are a few important distinctions that might be missed in this thread.

Christianity comes in various forms, and not all Christians take a literal interpretation of the Bible (and not all literal interpretations of the Bible are the same, either, for that matter). There are indeed Christians who take a dim view of practices like lucid dreaming, but this should not be broadened to the conclusion that Christianity in general is inherently at odds with it. Some Christians have no problem with lucid dreaming once they hear it correctly defined. Some Christians have no problem with evolution, either.

And, we can come at this from another angle.

As with everything we do, we should think about what we're trying to accomplish. If we're trying to successfully introduce lucid dreaming to any people who might initially be wary of it, I have some thoughts.

Part of the problem, when a barrier to the lucid dreaming idea arises, might be due to how we explain lucid dreaming to Christians or anyone else. If for example someone hears lucid dreaming described as a kind of wild mystical practice, it might indeed seem that lucid dreaming is being posited as a subsitute for faith; in this way, their skepticism or even rejection of the notion might be anticipated and explained.

If we're trying to at least have someone not reject lucid dreaming in the close-minded way described in this thread, this demands careful presentation of information on our part. But if, as I suspect it is sometimes, the hidden goal is to feel superior to someone or to confirm one's theory of another's close-mindedness, this can easily be self-fulfilling.

If we want someone to at least not reject lucid dreaming categorically, this requires some thought on our part: Am I making lucid dreaming seem threatening? Am I presenting a good basic definition, or am I creating a mystique around it? Am I trying to be accepted at least in some basic way, or am I trying to prove something?

AND, more fundamentally, why is it important to me to make this person accept lucid dreaming? Is is because I want them to accept my beliefs? Am I trying to convert them? Or what?

To so-called outsiders of all kinds, lucid dreaming can often seem quite bizarre and so-called New Age. And surprise; this isn't everyone's idea of the perfect belief system or approach. We can't have it both ways. If we're trying to be accepted without categorical rejection, we need to use more care and discretion in how we define and present it.

Lucid dreaming, when given its most spare and careful definition, probably wouldn't seem all that diabolical to most thoughtful people. But its more outrageous contexts (not to mention its misrepresentations) can be off-putting, to say the least. This doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile.

To me, lucid dreaming is a mental skill that can be developed whereby we can experience knowing we're dreaming while we're dreaming. It is something people can find exciting, intriguing, entertaining, useful, and revealing. It can also be inspiring, and it has applications to the study of the human mind.

What would be a shame, to me, is if reasonable people of a variety of beliefs who might otherwise enjoy and benefit from knowing about LD are hindered by either not hearing about it, or picking up a misleading definition of it.

Not everyone is interested. This shouldn't either surprise or upset us. If we are deeply bothered by this, need to ask ourselves if LD hasn't begun to (ironically) function as religion.

This is, necessarily, an incomplete discussion of this subject, but when I saw the number of posts here, I just wanted to throw these ideas into the mix. Close-mindedness comes in all forms.

Respectfully submitted, Reverie

We have to be extremely carefull when it comes to this matter. That's why I go about it so carefully, I omit anything that seems objectionable by they're beliefs, yet they always find something that makes it "evil" or "against" the Bible. Who are they to say it is "evil"?! This kind of ignorance just makes me shake my head in disapointment.

Who are we to say that it isn't evil?

Who are we? We are experienced, they are not. These people I'm talking about have no firsthand experience in LD'ing/OBE's, I've asked them. I see LD'ing as humans exercising our pure creative energy as it was inherited to us through our creator, the source of all creativity.

"Am I evil? Yes I am... Am I evil....? I am man, Yes I am."

Sorry couldn't resist a Metallica quote The idea that lucid dreaming could be evil is ABSURD. Even if you did evil things in a lucid dream, it wouldn't be real.... Dream free.

Tavis:

You wrote:

"I see LD'ing as humans exercising our pure creative energy as it was inherited to us through our creator, the source of all creativity."

Now, looking back at Reverie's post above, if you project that strong feeling on closed-minded people, don't you think there might be a chance that they will indeed intuit your feeling as a belief in something more powerful than you alone? That belief is a basic tenet of religion, and is sure to raise the defenses of almost anyone, but especially those with strong and hopelessly narrow viewpoints.

You can think what you want about lucid dreaming, but when communicating your experience to people who might get defensive, it would probably be an excellent idea to heed Reverie's advice and stick to the fundamentals of LD'ing -- simply experiencing being awake in dreams. If you tell them LD'ing is pure creative energy, I guarantee their minds will be shut long before you get to the end of the sentence. Try getting them used to the idea of LD'ing as a natural psychological event. Later, perhaps after someone experiences one, you can get into the creativity part.

Peter

Tavis,

I'll rephrase that, who are we to stand in judgement?

Proslytising lucid dreaming to most social groups is going to be a tough job, prehaps as hard as preaching sanity to the insane.

Broader interest from societies in general will only come slowly and organically (if at all) not if dreamers fight an undeclared war of ideas on they or them (whoever those darn fools happen to be).

That is to say that if it can be shown by yourself and others that being a dreamer has genuine benefits in life; then the proof will be in the pudding.

It is a process that can take generations. Besides if you have a passion for 'spreading the word' why not choose a different audience?

I'm curious though, what's the address of this site you refer to?

http://www.bibleforums.org/forum/

I haven't started a lucid dreaming topic yet. ;)

Tavis Assuming that I am not actually asleep in my bed dreaming this post, I have visited the site that you mention.

And Its going to be 'a cold day in hell' before the administrators of that site permit anyone to chat about lucid dreaming, but that is thier perogative and their agenda is clearly described in the board rules, (a close look at paragraph three shows us that proselytizing is most definitely not allowed)

I'm tempted to experience a cold day in hell in a LD, but knowing that in pagan times in the Nordic countries hell (if hell is or ever was an actuall place that could be experienced outside of the boundaries our minds or dreams that is) was believed to be a frozen wasteland I'll probably end up in Iceland.

Dreamt last night that President Bush, (an evangelcal christian? (go figure)) had converted the White House into the colusuem and had taken to throwing lucid dreamers' to the lions! He was dissapointed but the mob doubly entertained when the intended victims started to do things like break into ernest conversation about the nature of reality with the big cats or turn them into doors through which they escaped.

Is this a dream?

Well I got away with posting about out-of-body experiences for 4 pages so an LD'ing topic should be OK. They did delete the OBE post because, after getting frustrated with some people for saying "I wash my hands of you", I said "I also wash my hands" to a moderator. (I didn't know he was a moderator at the time, lol)

Why dont you create your own waking world lucid dream'n christain forum? It would be fun, you could delete conversations that didnt mention christianity and lucid dreams.

Alternatively in the dreaming world, why not incubate a waking dream in which you get to say whatever you wish to say wherever you wish to say it to whoever you want to and they listen with rapt attention?

A good venue for such an endeavor would be somewhere like Jerusalem prehaps even in the time of christ?

No but is this a dream?

Good idea Robert. Buy why would I delete conversations not related to lucid dreams and Christianity?

Oh, and to answer your question: YES

THIS--------------------------IS-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DREAM

It would be your site you could do as you pleased, especially in the dream version.

The answer to the question was cool, had me really wondering for a few minutes and then some, in fact I still am.

More varisions on the theme please.

But really, are you sure we're dreaming?

Someone deleted a paragraph on why some Christians turn there backs on these practices. Why?? I can't remember who it was or exactly what it said but now it's gone. I was going to use it as a reference. Darn.

Hi Tavis

I predict that keelin will write something like 'sometimes forum users edit using the edit feature' and that she is very interested to kwno what the paragraph was actually about.

Excellent opportunity for a reality check though.

Did you dream the post or dream that its gone?

Rob ;-)

Dear Tavis and Rob,

Let's be very clear about this. Anyone who posts a message to the Fourm has the opportunity to edit their own message within 24 hours through "Edit Profile". The moderators do not edit anyone's messages other than their own, so I am very curious about this alleged "missing paragraph".

• Keelin

Travis,

I am writing in regard to a question in your first post. Specifically, "Has anyone else had similar experiences with Christians? I'm about to tear my hair out over this!'

I'm not sure if you're asking about closed minded Christians, or about the issue of discussing LDs with Christians, but here are my thoughts"

A number of my relatives are extremely devout Christians. My ex was also a devout Christian, and she had many Christian friends and relatives who I came to know very well. I myself generally dislike religions, especially those which claim to be the "right" one and the others all "wrong" ones. My own personal experience with Christians has shown me that the more devout they are, the more closed minded and dogmatic they tend to be.

Like you, I have a very rational mind and personality. It would be an understatement to say I don't mix well with closed minded individuals, particularly when it comes to religion. I noticed the quote in your profile, "Generalizing, closed minded people are my pet-peeve.' I wonder how long you've been so involved with Christianity, since you ask about closed minded Christians. To me, that's like a person asking if other people have noticed that fire is hot.

I reviewed a number of the posts in the Christian forum you mentioned. My own personal, generalizing, closed minded opinion of that forum is that you'll get nowhere with those people. If you persist in your discussions, you'll surely be branded as an evil troublemaker who's in league with the Devil. The fact that you've already had some of your posts deleted shows their disapproval of your discussions. I would imagine they also disapprove of your other behaviors. You need to give up your rebellious ways and bury your nose in The Good Book. Lucid dreaming and out of body experiences will surely put you on the fast track straight to Hell.

You're now being tempted by the Devil, this is a test of your inner strength to resist. You need to stop thinking for yourself and just follow the party line. Do what you're told. Be like everyone else. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

-John

"You're now being tempted by the Devil, this is a test of your inner strength to resist. You need to stop thinking for yourself and just follow the party line. Do what you're told. Be like everyone else. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

LOL

John, Tavis,

These questions have been bugging me.

Why are the closed minded closed minded?

How is it that when we accuse "others" of some misdemeanour or crime, we so often find ourselves behaving in exactly the same way?

Rob

Some are closed minded because they generalize and won't look at new ideas with an honest and un-biased perspective.

Are you implying that I'm being hypocritical? If so, how? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious as to what you mean.

Hi Tavis,

No I am not implying that you are hypocritical, I am implying that we all are.

The idea is that we project are worst thoughts and feelings onto those who we imagine to be displaying them the most, usually a group or individual we see as separate from ourselves; as other than us.

Unfortunately as we openly accuse the others outward behaviour our own internal inclination toward that behaviour grows stronger along with our denial, yet where stuck, we cant admit it to ourselves. So it somehow becomes integrated into our personalities and manifests itself in contradictory behaviour.

Someone once said that this is like guarding your front door from the outside whilst the thief quietly sneaks in through the back window.

In terms of closed mindedness, I'd say that whilst we can rationally identify the closed minded and tell ourselves that we're not like them, we will inevitably encounter a psychological barrier to our progression in dreaming lucidly until we can find what it is that we ourselves our closed minded about.

Yours speculatively Rob

Rob,

Speak for yourself, Rob. I'm just intolerant of those who are intolerant. There's nothing to be gained talking to a person who isn't really listening.

In closing, let me just say that I deny being in denial. If you think that proves your point, then good for you, because I'm not listening.

-John

Dear Dreamers,

A few days ago, we posted a message describing one of the ways in which we are planning to improve and streamline our Forum. This thread has become a good example of how easy it is to drift away from our intended goal here on the Forum. To reiterate, we want this site to function as an extension of TLI's FAQ with the added dimension of your personal lucid dream experiences and on-topic questions and commentary. Anyone who has been following this particular thread knows that some thoughtful responses to the initial question were offered awhile back (they are now in the archives!), while those who are new to the Forum may understandably wonder what the latest responses here have to do with lucid dreaming. :?

We all make the Forum what it is, and with this in mind, we ask that everyone please think about the purposes behind their contributions prior to posting them. We look forward to your continued sharing with us and hope this message will bring out the best in all of us who seek to be "oneironauts" (explorers of the dream world!) in the truest sense.

With gratitude, Your Forum Moderators

John, Rob, & Tavis:

Well, now, there was an interesting exchange! This is certainly an excellent thread for eliciting heartfelt opinions! But I think it's also worth the discussion, because it can relate to how we deal with lucid dreaming during our waking lives, and perhaps how we handle unwanted pressure from those close-minded people who seek to proselytize us into submission!

Rob, I think I understand your point (please correct me if I'm wrong) in that when we allow the behaviors of closed-minded people to spark our defenses, their behavior can become contagious. Just ask John! Of course I'm just kidding John, but there may be some sense in actually trying to tolerate the intolerant, just to avoid the onset of unintentional affected ignorance that Rob may have been discussing. When you shut yourself off from any ideas, even the bad ones, your own insulation prevents you from experiencing, and properly exploring, a certain (albeit unpleasant) portion of your world.

This doesn't mean that you need to preach to the intolerant, or even necessarily share your thoughts and dreams with them. But it does mean that you should accept their ignorance, fear, or whatever else formed their intolerance as something real; a viable facet of the waking world we all must navigate. If you can do that you might be able to find some value in people like this in spite of their flaws and, to twist Rob's theory on its ear, maybe your tolerance will rub off on them and they'll soften their perspectives.

In other words, to sidestep hypocrisy we need to avoid erecting walls of righteous defense. Even if you are sure another person is wrong, and can prove it, there is great value in understanding that they think they are right. There might be nothing you can do about their thoughts, but at least you can talk to them because you're willing to understand their position. Otherwise, Rob is right, and in closing our minds and hearts to closed-minded people, we're closing our own minds too. And that can only injure our own prospects for lucidity.

I hope this made sense. If not, just ignore me. But try not to ignore each other ' that tack might feel easy in the short term, but it can really screw things up down the road.

Peter

Oops!

I just noticed that note from the forum moderators after I made my post.

Sorry guys!

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for bringing us back around. Many thanks for the good points you and others have made on the "close-minded" topic. When condensed, this will be a good addition to our future FAQs on the Forum.

I hear the hinges of my own mind creaking! Keelin

I hear voices that never hear each other.

Hi Admin, John, Tavis, Peter, Keelin

In relation to lucid dreaming the subject I'm trying to find the write words to raise is what I call 'spirtual fear'.

It seems that various religous communities have strong reservations about the wisdom of learning to dream lucidily. This could be seen as purely psychological, on the other hand they could be right.

For example, what if the faculties we use to develope this extra dreamary ability are there for another as yet undiscovered purpose? Sounds of the wall I know but what if its like using a tool say a wood saw on an inappropraite material say concrete? I guess we end up with blunt saws?

Examining the arguement from here it doesnt look like much but it bugs me fills me with apprehension and seems to sometimes spoil my lucid efforts?

Rob

John,

I like the way your statement juxtaposes what I wrote.

I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm examining an idea. The idea of how unexamined fear may prevent us from achieving our dreaming goals.

Rob

Hi Admin,

Hmm, maybe it takes a while for some themes to develope?

I understand what you mean about conversations not appearing to be overtly about lucid dreaming, that can be frustrating.

Which character was it in Waking Life, who said to paraphrase, 'its all about these opposing realities, which in reality dont realy oppose'.

To me that came across as meaning the waking world contains are dreams and the dreaming world contains are reality, they wrap each other up.

If the dreaming world has everything in it then everything can be related to the dream world. So if a poster posted 'I posted a letter' here because of the context of the site and are implicit knowledge of what we're about it couldnt really said to be 'of subject' as nothing ever can be especially if the waking world is also really a dream with extra rules. (the world where the poster posted the post and the letter from)?

The FAQ project looks worthy. It will probably be well used.

Loads more to say but my head hurts,

No nightmares nowhere,

Rob :?

Rob,

Thanks, Rob. After first writing a lengthy rebuttal to you, I then read what I wrote to reflect upon how it might be received by others. In doing so, I taught myself some valuable lessons. (I won't bore you with the details, that's part of what I learned!)

I think lucidity teaches us introspection. It's definitely had that affect on me. I know I'm much more so now than I was before. It would definitely be nice to have more lucid dreams too, but I've gained a lot just by contemplating the whole subject.

(Note: the previous paragraph should satisfy the moderator's requirement to keep this discussion relevant to the subject of lucid dreaming.)

My biggest complaint about closed minded people is their lack of introspection. Too many people simply recite whatever they've been taught without thinking about what they're saying. Hence the term "closed minded'. Their minds are closed to new ideas.

Ignorance is bliss?

-John

Rob,

I wouldn't worry too much about the moderator. S/he's just trying to save disk space (money) by keeping us on subject. Maybe we should all use smaller fonts so they don't have to store so many pixels. (Just for the record, I said "maybe'.)

I also wanted to add that I've noticed closed minded people feel a need to control others, to get them to conform to their own parameters. Lucid dreaming is very much a mind expanding experience. It's not well suited to certain kinds of people.

-John