Hello All, Yes i was wondering if any of you have experienced any of the same things that Castaneda claims to have experienced in his dreaming practices "ensonar" ? eg. Inorganic beings/realm, the dreaming emissary, scouts etc.

I've personally tried a few experiments in my own lucid dreams as an attempt to "see for myself". The one technique i can certainly vouch for is the "twin position" technique - it produced the most vivid F.A. i've ever had ! What you do is as your dreaming attention begins to wane,you move your dreaming body into the same positon as your vertical physical sleeping body, and if done correctly you'll wake up into another encridibly real lucid dream ( that's if you notice in time lol!)

I'll be gratefull for any sort of response. thanks .

Ben Are you asking if the dream world created by Castenada is a real place? Or are you asking if anyone has used the techniques he describes for inducing lucid dreams? (or are you asking both questions?)

How funny I was thinking about creating such a topic just this morning.

I too have been attempting to verify for myself some of the things Nagual Carlos alludes to in his books.

The twin position technique had similar results for me, although I did it as soon as I entered the dream rather than waiting for it to falter. I was convinced that I had stood up in my sleep and woke up in my living room standing. I was aware as in everyday life it seemed. Then I woke up, and I couldn't believe it. It had been so... concrete. I have done it on my back as well as on my right side, but haven't managed to do it on my left yet.

Anyway I'm willing to discuss some of these things and I'm definitely interested in hearing experiences of others.

Rob both, But I guess mainly what I'm wanting to know is if anyone has experienced something in a lucid dream that has verified to them any truth in Carlos's books, like hearing voices in the daily world or communicating to a friend through a lucid dream.

Ryan Interesting! i know exacty what you mean when you say "concrete". < the world i entered when i executed the "twin position" technique was a flawless recreation of my room,and my senses were as sensitive as they are while i'm awake. Far more real than any other lucid dream i've had. The funny thing about that F.A. ( and only incongruity) was that i was wearing my shoes when i woke up-I don't usually sleep with my shoes on for people who don't know me. Blast!, had i known i was dreaming i would have worn out those shoes! I even sat on my dream bed for several dream minutes tring to deduce why i was wearing them. I still beleive i need a lot more experience in them before i can recongnize and wake up to one of those false awakenings, even if there are screeming clues. so were you ever successful Ryan? if so please describe how it went , length/vividness of LD.

Im interested in hearing of any other techniques you have you experimented with that have benefited your LDing. I may have been pulled by a scout once but it may just my have been my intention to be pulled, but there's no way for me to verify that though obviously.

later :?)

Where to start? lol One thing that I have definitely found to benefit my dreaming is the dreaming color. If you've read "The Eagles Gift" you will find a good account of the dreaming color.

I used to stare into the darkness in my room for hours on end, intending to see the dreaming color. One night I sat up and found myself enshrouded in purple glow edged in yellow light. It was changing shape, getting smaller then bigger. Abruptly I realized I was sitting up in a dream body.

From that point on I could always relax, and focus for a minute, and the dreaming color appears. What is of genuine interest to me, is that I can do this even now, wide-awake with my eyes open. For quite a long time I used the dreaming color exclusively to induce Wild's. I summon it then doggedly fixate it in my peripheral. Images appear inside it that coalesces into dreaming scenes. Then, if I don't panic I enter the dream scene.

I haven't used this method in a long time, as I like to keep the techniques wide and varied so as not to get into any fixed pattern.

I don't know what to say about the twin position dream, for fear of talking in circles. It wasn't that I wasn't aware, it was that it was so real I doubted myself for having created it in a dream, thus I concocted the idea that I had walked in my sleep and then woke up. It was a total success as far as I was concerned. My awareness of my surrounding environment was as real as it could ever be. Thus, it suprised me that I woke up, what could be more real then where I had just been?

I did do this one other time, about 10 years ago. When I remember the details of the dream I'll tell you and then we'll both know. All I remember of this account is that I floated there above my body for a long time, enshrouded in some kind of energetic glow.

Iv'e had some weird dreams that fit into the inorganic category as well, but alas, my time is up for the night.

Type at ya later.

Ben/Ryan I think that the world Castenada imagined and wrote about was just that, an imagined world.

I think that the experiences you describe are as they are because your minds have absorbed his books and are now rebroadcasting that world to themselves.

I believe that the techniques used by Don Juan to induce entry into the dreaming world have some ligitamice, such as looking for ones hands (and ingesting hullicanigens) yet its more likely that the fact one is searching for something in ones dreams is the crucial factor. Most hullicanigens will have an effect wether you take them within a religous or magical context or not (don't forget that most people are remarkable susptable to suggestion when under the influence of such chemicals)

However: I read Castenada's books a long time ago, so the details are a little faded, but I do remember him describing becoming lucid in a dream that allegedly resembled the real world exactly, he then took a walk in some fimilar streets and visited a cafe where he bumped into a man. He later describes bumping into the same man in real life who apparently recognised him and terrified runs off. So I suggest an experiement - become lucid through whatever means, use Castenada's mythology to track me down (its a long trip I live in the UK) and then describe as much as you possibily can about me on the forum (generalizations wont pass).

Good luck

Rob: I refuse to get into a discussion on beliefs. What I'm interested in here is the dreaming practices, any dreaming practices that I can get my hands on. I have read many books on dreaming and found almost every technique anyone has ever come up with to induce dreaming, works.

Some of the techniques and practices are effective such as the twin positions, or the dreaming color, or finding ones hands in dreaming, or shutting off the internal dialogue and focusing on the solar plexus to induce wilds. Techniques such as gazing are very effective if they are practiced diligently as well. The napping technique is amazing, the white dot technique works, everything works it seems as long as intent is there. Visualizing picking you nose as you drifted off to sleep can induce a lucid dream, if you are intending to dream lucid. I have read many books on dreaming and found almost every technique anyone has ever come up with to induce dreaming, works.

Intent then, for me, seems to be the key.

Ben, I tried the twin position technique last night. I ended up dreaming that I was floating above my body, in the same position as my sleeping body underneath me. I didn't do much, but I stayed in this dream for about an hour without breaking lucidity. I had woke up prior to trying it, and looked at the clock. It was 4:00 am. When my alarm went off at 5:00 am I woke up, I had been floating above my body for nearly an hour. To me this is amazing because I normally lose lucidity instantly if I am not engaged in some sort of activity.

Ryan: Why?

Rob: My rational side is just as sceptical, and i totally agree and am totally aware that it's quite possible that everything that i perceive in my lucid dreams is a product of my psyche. I think if anyone were to persuade me completely they would have to do exactly as you said - describe me perfectly without ever meeting me. I guess my first question for you should have been " has anyone done any experiments that can truly prove Carlos Castaneda is right, that there are other worlds to visit if you have the capability to see them?"

But for now i'm interested in hearing about any Castaneda related experience that may or may not prove the existence of that world.

Ryan: It sounds like you have reached your energy body- the Art of dreaming chapter 8 - So if Castaneda is telling the truth than you were actually looking at your physical body from above.

Try this experiment: keep a deck of cards next to your bed. Each night before you fall asleep ( lights out, no peeking) shuffle the deck and place one card on top facing up. See if the card in your dream is the same in the physical world. I'll do the same over here.

I think this is a better experiment to start with than Robs because "apparently" the energy body at first has trouble moving.

later

Hi Dreamers,

I'm wondering if you've all had a chance to read the article "OTHER WORLDS: OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES AND LUCID DREAMS" by Lynne Levitan and Stephen LaBerge. I'd highly recommend reviewing it, as it will shed some light on what you've been discussing here.

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Dream well -- wherever you think you may be! ;) Keelin

Yello boys and girls,

I tried the twin position yesterday and this is what happened:

I woke up to go to the bathroom around 5:30 and decided to do the napping technique. I laid on my right side and got rid of any thoughts I had. I didn't intend for a specific dream but suddenly I found myself exactly where I laid, in my bed, on my pillow, on my right side, with my eyes open. I was facing a bit towards the mattres where an open leaflet laid. I tried to read it but suddenly the letters started swifting. "Ooops! I am not awake in my bed! I'm dreaming I'm in my bed!" It suddenly came to me to try the twin position. It wasn't very difficult to do it since I was already laying down on the side I had slept. So, I closed my eyes, feeling quite sleepy. When I opened my eyes again I turned to my other side just to see that it was 7:20, 10 mins before the alarm goes off. At that time I really thought I was awake because everything seemed to be feeling exactly the same way as dosing in the morning before waking up, the covers, the scent of clean sheets, the size and softness of my pillow. I then closed my eyes again. When I opened them, I looked at the clock and it was 6:15!!!!

I realised that after attempting the twin position, the waking that followed it was again a dream but in my real room (at least it felt exactly like that) just a bit forward in time!

I don't know what to make out of this, but it was quite fascinating for me! Mind you I didn't have any expectations from trying this. I just let myself experience whatever was coming to me.

Thanks to Ben and anyone involved on this subject! I was energised by it this morning! I would suggest people to try it, believers and non-believers.

Be well and follow your heart! Nikolas

No thank you Nikolas, stories like yours inspire me greatly to continue experimenting with the twin position technique ( still haven't perfected it yet.... I still haven't caught one yet LOL ! but I'm getting closer :?) ) . I wan't to know how long a TP dream lasts for, and if it's easier or harder to walk through walls/fly etc. I know they always originate in the same place as where you fall asleep and that they are incredible but that's about it. Have you read "the art of dreaming" ? it's interesting that it was an inorganic being that suggested the TP technique to Carlos. I wonder if it's a human-fashioned technique ? Later .

Ben,

The reason I started on lucid dreaming was because of Carlos' books. I've actually read all of his work. Now, after having experienced some of the things he's writing about, I'm re-reading them! This new experiential perspective on dreaming makes his books more fascinating than when I first read them. And yes, 'The Art of Dreaming'! What a marvel!

Back to the twin position: The dream after attempting the Twin Position was so real that even though I was expecting it I was fooled by it's concreteness and feeling. Ok, I didn't do enough reallity checking but damn! That was my bed! In my room! With my digital clock! The funny things is that at the time I decided to try it out, I didn't think of what the results would be. I didn't try to remember what Carlos had writen about it. I just did it with no expectations about the outcome of it. And from what it looks like, the effect is the same as yours. I woke up in another solid dream on the same spot I laid on. You can argue that I've read Carlos' books, but the truth is that even now, that I'm awake (am I?) I can't remember the details about this technique and what it does. So there's quite some evidence of it's application and results.

Back to Carlos. I've given his stories lots of thought and started doing research on lots of aspects of dreaming. The Tibetans' view, the Shamans' view, Astral Projection and scientists views. All I can say is that they have so much in common that the conclusion I've come up with is this: Castaneda is writing about things that actually happen, that people had experienced, are experiencing and definitely will experience. It's not fiction. How can all these different cultures, when it comes to dreaming/projecting, have so much in common? It's common sense to conclude that it must be true.

You can travel through dreaming, you can perceive new worlds and yes, they exist at that particular moment for you. They are real as anything else. Can you prove it? Who cares! Have you been there? That's what counts! You don't need peoples opinions whether it's sane/normal/crazy/fiction/real. What I can't prove and I don't know is whether Carlos has actually experienced all this things or part of them and he's just a heck of good story teller. If one does enough research on shamanism and its belief system, he can come up with a story around the same lines. But at the end of the day, who cares Carlos has experienced all these things or some of them or none of them. What counts is what you make out his writings. I personally stopped taking things so personally, life is more funny than ever even on the bad days. What's more true and inevitable than death? Don Juan was always telling him that death is the best advisor. Use every single moment of your life to the full, act! Don't be passive but also let things come to you. Don't believe you can control everything. Learn how to let go and when to act.

I'm not saying that I was waiting for Castaneda to be proactive but he surely made me think about a lot of things and helped me free myself from things that are not that important. Life is too short to worry about things all the time.

Enjoy and follow your heart!

Nikolas

Hi Keelin, thanks for the link. I have read it several times actually, but I went ahead and read it again. It's a good article. I don't really care for the "powerless body of ether" statement at the end though. My most intense and mysterious dreams are from a state of dream paralysis or ones that seem as if I have floated out of my body. Not to take anything away from other types of lucid dreams, they are all an exciting adventure, even the "powerless body of ether" ones.

Another thing I have tried from Art of Dreaming, is pointing my pinky at dream characters and objects to see if they generate energy.This seems to accomplish just what one would expect, dream characters and objects become encased in an energetic glow. Not always though. The toltec belief was that when you were in a dream of the type that objects and people in the environment generate energy, it is because it is a real place, an energy generating dream. While this is interesting to me, it doesn't really prove anything, other than if you intend to point your finger at something and see energy in a dream, you probably will.

Something I have always wanted to try though is the tongue on the roof of the mouth technique. The task is to press the tongue against the roof of the mouth while dreaming. It is supposedly as difficult and consuming as finding ones hands in dreaming, but once accomplished it's supposed to give the most astounding results in terms of controlling the dreaming attention.

Have any of you tried this yet? I am interested to hear the results. I have tried it a few times, but never pulled it off. Perhaps I will commit it to a nightly practice, just to see.

Hi all! I have not yet been able to feel my tongue on the roof of my mouth while dreaming. For some reason I keep forgetting! Oh well.

Early this morning however, I did try something new from The Art of Dreaming that I have never tried before. The idea is to, instead of waking up when you feel your dreaming attention waning, focus on the items of your dream and let it pull you into a new dream scene.

I tried just that this morning. When I felt as if I was about to wake up I would focus on a distant object and try to feel it pull me away. I would sort of float slowly towards it at first, then take off with great speed and find myself in a new dream environment! Four different times I felt as if I was going to wake up, but instead I focused on a distant object and zoomed over to it. This was somehow refreshing to my dreaming attention, like a boost of excitement at having suddenly found a new dream environment to explore instead of having woken up. Finally the dream began to fade, but as it did I zoomed off again. I ended up zooming through a black void of vaguely outlined hypnagogic imagery. I knew I was waking up but sort of refused to, I could still feel my self-moving. I kept this going for about thirty seconds. I decided to wake up so I could record my dream. I feel that I could have forced my way back into the dream.

While I do have lucid dreams a lot since I have gotten back into it, to have a lucid dream as long as I did this morning is no less than remarkable for me. I always seem to get too excited or do the wrong thing and wake myself up after a few minutes.

The alternative to this exercise is to dream that you wake up into another dream, like a false awakening but staying aware. Instead of waking up, change the dream scene, or wake up into another dream!

This is definitely another aspect of Nagual Carlos Castaneda's book The Art of Dreaming that I have found extremely effective. It never dawned on me to try this method for prolonging the dream. I definitely think this is a worthy technique to try out.

Type at you all later.

Hi, Ryan

Thanks for sharing experiences. I think, many people discovered similar techniques before and after. Nonetheless I think, that Casteneda did good to publish these things, they brought many people to LDing. But the framework of the Toltec teachings is still somewhat mysterious to me.

Yours Ralf

P.S. May I copy your experiences to the "prolonging" - thread?

Please do.

Think I'll do it, when I'm back home. Thanks.

Hi to all the Castaneda/Don Juan/Toltoc folks out there. I think there's at least three of you. Does anyone know what the 4th through 7th gates of dreaming are? Do you think they just relate to endless exploration of:

1. Intent/Dream realms of our own personal design.
2. Intent/Dream realms of other being's personal design.
3. This waking "real" world.
4. Other "real" worlds. Any speculations? I know there are many skeptics of the Castaneda books--and rightly so. We needn't believe everything we read--even if posed as nonfiction. But as a preemptive, please no negative feedback, as this inherently does not lead to encouragement of the pursuit of Lucid Dreaming and all it encompasses and can lead to. Where is there room for "yes" or "no" in the arenas of the unknown and unknowable? Lucidly Yours, Michael

Contrary to popular belief, the Toltoc civilization never really existed--except in my mind. I meant Toltec.

Michael,

I can't relate to what you mean. I read most Castaneda books, but that was a time ago. Could you give me the book / chapter you relate to?

I, too, think we should be open and sceptic regarding the works of Castaneda. I won't dismiss his works.

Ralf

Hi Ralf, The book is "The Art of Dreaming" in which he specifically discusses the first three gates of dreaming. Seven gates are mentioned in the beginning of the book. But after the first three gates, you are pretty much left to interpret what the next four gates are--he doesn't spell them out like the first three. I wanted to get some interpretations from the Castaneda/Shaman affecionados. Michael

Hi Michael,

Have you checked alt.dreams.castenada newsgroup? I believe that site is dedicated to his writings, so you're likely to find devotees in abundance there.

Sweet dreams! Keelin

I checked out that news group and didn't find it very informative at all. I have no clue about the 5th, 6th, and 7th gate of dreaming. But the fourth is mentioned on page 200 in The Art of Dreaming.

Michael:

I don't think you will find much rational discussion about the remaining gates, because they probably never existed, even to Castaneda. He may have started the book with the intent of discussing 7 gates, but never got around to describing more than four.

From the way "The Art of Dreaming" went, I'd say Castaneda was too distracted by his mystical adventures to pay much heed to the clever ideas (like the gates) with which he started the book. The omission, and Castaneda's break from what could have been an excellent book on dreaming, was certainly disappointing.

Peter

Ryan,

Did you try these links:

http://toltecdreaming.net/

http://pub4.ezboard.com/fsustainedreaction98489dreamingdiscussions.html

I'm sorry, I can't say much to the subject of Castaneda. His books leave me with very great questions. But don't provide practical ways to deal with them. At least not in my eyes. Maybe I'll do some of the LD experiments, he wrote of. But now I focus on what seems to be more in my reach.

Have you been at the dreaminitative and searched the archive? I saw some discussions about Castaneda pop up there. At least one of them seems to work according to Castaneda.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thedreaminitiative/

Hope that helps

Peter, thanks for your short review. It is helpful to me, I didn't know how to say it, when I read his book on dreaming.

Yours Ralf

Guys, thanks for the feedback. I'll check out the links and sites, but I'm not obsessed with the remaining gates, since after the 3rd, the possibilites become endless, as I'm sure long-time, frequent lucid dreamers know. I'm not there yet-still 2nd gate stuff for me. Maybe Don Juan left it open and didn't reveal anymore distinct guidelines since he said dreaming was ultra-personal when someone gets experienced. Or Castaneda wasn't prepared for the final gates. Or it's all semi-fiction, pure-fiction. Whatever. I cling to nothing. The Tenant's dreamworld is pretty amazing though. Good Dreaming and Good Journeying, Michael

Ralf:

You're welcome. And if there are any hard-core Castaneda fans out there, please forgive me; I speak only so because his dream book offered many promises, but failed to come through on them. It was as though Castaneda had lunch with a person who possessed great knowledge about dreaming, and decided that he would write a book on the subject. Unfortunately he forgot most of what he was told before dinner.

His earlier books seemed much more informative, but that could only be because I know nothing about peyote!

Peter

I'm not at all impressed with Carlos Casteneda. I started to read about that bubble thing that's supposed to surround us all, and that was enough for me!

In my opinion he was on something when he wrote all that c**p.

Owen

Owen, I don't believe you should take the bubble thing in it's literal sense. Most of the stuff that are described in Castanedas's books refer to things that cannot really be explained with words. I bet many people had similar experiences where words are just not enough, where one doesn't know where to start when attempting to explain a personal mystical experience.

All, Castaneda's mostly talks about intent and will and the right way to live. Intent and will are two qualities that give the dreamer maximum control of a dream situation. You don't need to be on something to figure this out. When you attempt to control a dream, you don't use your reason to do it, you intent things to happen. It's fairly simple. If you practice or attempt to practice the "way of the warrior" you become more fluid in your waking life and save valuable energy to venture into dreaming. I believe it's common sense that if you try not to take things personally you do save your energy by not getting angry. It makes sense, doesn't it? I also believe that when he wrote "The Art of Dreaming" he never intented it to be a dreaming manual as such. Simply put, he tried to give his own view of what happens when one starts to use dreaming as a portal to other worlds. I've read all his books and I am also sceptical whether all he writes about actually happened. But it still gave me the chance to question a lot of things and also got me involved with dreaming. What applies more to our lifes I guess is that "right way to live", "the way of the warrior". He simply states that when you do your best on any given situation, don't take things personally and follow your heart, at the end you are free. That also relates to what the Tibetan Yogis of Dream and Sleep state, erasing karmic traces.

Regarding the 7 gates, one can easily see the relation between the 7 astral planes. Above the 4th, I don't believe that there's access to people that are still alive. I hope that answers your question.

I will find out more on the 7 astral planes and try to give you more info on that.

Castaneda: fiction or non-fiction? Doesn't really matter. It's still utterly funny to read his books.

Be well guys!

Thanks for the insight Nikolas, glad to hear from you.

Lucid dreaming by night and meditation by day, Michael

Just thought that I would throw in to the mix that in Taisha Abelars book, "The Sorcerer's Crossing" it is mentioned that seven gates are present in the body as energetic centers. The process of stalking is to awaken the seven gates and get them actively emitting energy. Once they are all open the stalker becomes in touch with the "energetic double". The dreaming gates may very well correspond with the energetic centers in the body, causing them to somehow become active. If four gates are open, it is likely that the energetic process will gain it's own momentum until all seven are open and functional.

On page 159 Mr. Abelar (Nagual Don Juan Matus) explains that there are seven main gates inside the body, some close to the skin, some are deep inside the body. If they are closed energy stays locked inside the body. He says that the gates can be opened through recapitulation and Tensegrity (it is not called Tensegrity in this book, but magical passes). Basically to open the gates is to nourish the double, as energy is released from the body and allowed to flow to the double.

Dream well.

Thanks Ryan, interesting stuff. So many practical, applicable gifts from the Castaneda books: the way of the non-violent warrior, the art of stalking the self, gazing-meditation, concepts of cognition and the assemblage point, entry into active dreaming, and experientially living life without the encumbrances of the ego self-importance and the endless internal dialogue. I found Victor Sanchez's book on the practical applications of Castaneda's works most excellent. He isn't concerned about the fiction/non-fiction question, just the helpful wisdom and applications for anyone interested in exploring the energy behind the manifested form of things--which we all know is there, but can never be properly measured by a gadget or broken down into mathmatical formulas. I'll say no more since this is getting outside the realm of lucid dreaming. However, I plan to try the tongue to the roof of the mouth technique for enhancing/prolonging/controlling lucid dreams. As Aerosmith sang, Dream On....., Michael

Nikolas, I was half joking, I shouldn't have passed judgement on Castaneda books without reading more. Owen

Owen, I thought you were fully joking! Hahahahha! They way you chose your words for your post were quite funny! "The bubble thing..."

Take care!

WHERE IS CARLOS CASTANEDA? [Reprinted from Lucidity*Flashes] According to the Los Angeles Times, Carlos Castaneda, best-selling author, fantasy anthropologist, archetypal Trickster, cultural icon, and dreamer extraordinaire, mysteriously vanished into Nothingness April 27th 1998. Various theories have been put forth to explain his disappearence and speculate on his current where-abouts. According to some, he is hiding out in "non-ordinary reality." More conventional observers cite the existence of a death certificate as proof that Castaneda hasn't gone anywhere; he's simply "dead." Whether or not his consciousness was eaten by the Eagle described in his books must remain for the time being an open, if ill-formed question.

Perhaps apropos, his literary agent issued a prepared (by whom?) statement: "In the tradition of the shamans of his lineage, Carlos Castaneda left this world in full awareness." This carefully- phrased assertion is more ambiguous than may at first appear. "Left this world" is all very well, but left for where? And does "in full awareness" refer to Castaneda or "the world?" That is, was it the world that was left in a state of full awareness? Likewise, does "in full awareness" mean the same as "with full awareness?" Did he take his awareness with him, or leave it behind?

The LA Times article stated that "The author was cremated at once and his ashes were spirited away to Mexico..." Spirited away? Ashes? If anything is spirited away, it's not the ashes! Escaping from a burning coffin would make a worthy final trick. If life is a dream, so is death: Tibetan Buddhists teach that the afterdeath state closely parallels the dreamstate. Sufficiently advanced practioners, they claim, can "leave the world with full awareness" and guide the afterdeath state just as lucid dreamers guide their dreams. And so we wonder: Where is Carlos Castaneda?

For the LA Times article, see: Castaneda Obit

For further amusement, see: "A Yankee Way of Knowledge" by Ian Shoals on Salon

Towards more Light! Stephen

Once in a LD I managed to remember to touch the roof of my mouth with my tongue, nothing seemed to change though but i was delighted anyway to have remembered such a low-priority task. (i hadn't really intended to execute that particular task while lucid). I usually spin like a mad man to refresh my dreaming attention and sometimes i'll have to force myself to wake up because i can't stop whirling!I think i'll try gazing at a distant object next time, it sounds a little more graceful.Thanks Ryan.

Dear Stephen,

thanks for sharing this article. Made me smile.

It is quite funny, we don't know, who or where he is. It is a real afterlife, he has by that...

So much for deincarnation

CU in LD

All the fun in DreamCamp

Yours Ralf

SURELY YOU'RE JOKING, MR. CASTANEDA

Glad the article made you smile, Ralf! That was purpose number one. Purpose number two was to note irony that CC managed to continue after death in the role he played in life: The Trickster®

See the forthcoming posthumous autohagiography "Surely you're joking, Mr Castaneda!" revealing some of CC's more amusing pranks. Best joke of all was how many people gravely took him seriously, while he himself viewed the ©© character with universal levity (Interviewed via Ouija board, CC giggled "That's not funny!").

So much for "deincarnation" as you so delightfully put it!

And a reminder to all. This is the LUCIDITY Forum. Lucidity does require a certain amount of critical thinking (in the sense of Oliver Fox). That means we have to learn to be a bit more skeptical about what we read, think, and think that we think. ;)

Aloha! Stephen

So what if this is the lucidity forum, we all paid for our membership and should be allowed to speculate. Go ahead and cancel my membership. Or I'll just allow it to expire.

Dream well, and free.

Ryan! What do you think lucidity means? What do you think I think it means? What do you think I mean by 'we'? What do you think I mean by the need to be more skeptical about what we read, think, and think that we think?

Of course, you are as free to speculate as you like. Reflect away! Did I say anything to the contrary? To clarify, I reminded us that this is the LUCIDITY forum. Skepticism, the method of suspended judgment, and systematic questionning of the nature of our reality and our beliefs is part of what lucidity is all about.

I take it you disagree with what I said? Do you really want to say that we don't need to learn to be a bit more skeptical about what we read, think, and think that we think?!

Thanks for your attention.

Dear Ryan!

I would be sad, if you quit this forum. Your contributions are welcome. And I suppose, Stephen thinks so, too.

I must confess, I sometimes found his words sobering. Causing resistance. But often I saw, that I didn't get him right, his intention, the meaning of his words, on a closer look. Of course there seem to be differences in our worldviews. We don't work with same assumptions. We don't have the same beliefs. That is clear to me, now. But keeping our mind open is a mutual thing, here. We all take part in this activity. Stephen, too!

One example is this discussion on Castaneda. Has any participant been banned here? Any posts deleted? In all my three years here in the forum, I remember one participant's posts being removed. But he was really offending, insulting, and the seemingly opposite of a critical thinker. I am quite sure, that Stephen and Keelin didn't want to go into a discussion on Carlos Castaneda and I think, they have their reasons. One of these I imagine to be avoiding situations like the one we have now.

I think in general we don't want to discuss here the accuracy of special belief systems or spiritual teachings and compare them and judge them. If you look through the postings in this forum, you might see very few mentions of religious systems. Although Stephen seems to be somewhat fond of Tibetan Buddhism and certain aspects of Sufism (see the Nasrudin stories), do you find traces of this here? And if you find, these are in the form of an experiment (Nasal cycles, sleep posture, ...).

In a sense the Toltec system, according to CC, seems to be system of practical teachings. But there seem to be aspects of belief, too. The eagle gets you in the end, take care! I have gone through phases of belief, delusion, sobering, trying some things in regard to CC's works. His life and the discussion we have here, remind me now a lot of the works of Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea: "Illuminatus!", and "Schroedinger's Cat" and the way I received these works.

The superficial form of their work is "novel", but they integrated pretty much of what was going on at that time in the sixties and seventies. Sex and drugs and rock 'n roll and all kind of conspiracies, synchronicities, psi and science and fiction. So I had maybe the most adequate approach by simply feeling and being confused. Whenever I thought I had come to a sort of fitting interpretation, I found myself fooled some lines or months later.

Castaneda leaves me with a similar mood of slight (sometimes very deep) disorientation. He didn't choose the form of a novel, but of a scientific investigation. I think, as far as I remember the books, he knew, when he left that frame. But he leaves me with not knowing what is science, what is experience, what is fiction.

I think, Wilson / Shea used a term called "metanoia", what I would define with "getting aware about having a belief system" and "learning how to consciously work on and with my believes". The hero achieved that, was being forced into that, by being thrown from one belief / worldview into another and the next in a very short time, while his mind / brain was opened by different psycho - technologies, ultimate fear and paranoia, drugs, excessive sex... In a way "Illuminatus!" seemed to me magical but sobering simultaneous, it hit me as a koan, as a seemingly insolvable paradox.

You know, Ryan, it is a plain truth, everybody reacts different to the same situation. I understand Stephen's words as appealing to unveil unconscious bonds to my believes, bonds to unquestioned assumptions and maybe an appeal to laugh about myself and how I am limiting myself. That is what lucidity is about. It is an appeal to be free!!

Please keep on posting here, you'll hardly find a more open and compassionate tribe in the LD realm.

Into the light!

Yours Ralf

Fine. I don't log on for three days and I miss all the fun!

Stephen:

Thanks for your words, your caveats, and your welcome humor. With Ralf, I am grateful that you keep this site open to such a broad gamut of concepts.

Ryan:

Relax. In the end, CC's stuff is all just words. Even if they represented perfect Truth, as words they are subject to the perceptions and values of people, who may occasionally be less inclined to immediately accept them. Keep in mind, too, that rationale defense of CC's wisdom is far more valuable to us all than is righteous indignation. So too is your continued participation.

Ralf:

Dude, where do you find the time?

Happy dreams to all,

Peter

Stephen wrote: And a reminder to all. This is the LUCIDITY Forum. Lucidity does require a certain amount of critical thinking (in the sense of Oliver Fox). That means we have to learn to be a bit more skeptical about what we read, think, and think that we think. ;)

Stephen, being as how most of the posts in this thread are by people who are skeptical about this topic already, I failed to see your point that anyone needed to be more skeptical. It seemed to me that you were maybe unhappy with this topic in general because it takes the focus off of your work, and emphasizes someone else's that has a bad reputation in the realm of academia. When you said this is the LUCIDITY forum it seemed to me more a reminder of hey this is my forum, based on my work. And that we (the people experimenting with techniques from The Art of Dreaming) are somehow not skeptical enough.

Stephen wrote: I take it you disagree with what I said? Do you really want to say that we don't need to learn to be a bit more skeptical about what we read, think, and think that we think?!

No that is not what I meant to say at all. What I disagree with is that you assume people aren't skeptical. The whole reason this topic was created was probably skepticism. People were interested to see if any of the techniques from The Art of Dreaming actually worked. Most people probably don't even take the topic serious enough to try any of the techniques. But a more appropriate post to this particular thread would be just such an event, an account of your personal experiences in this regard. Instead we get our level of skepticism questioned and doubted. I'm talking about dreaming techniques not so much belief system. For example the out of body experience. I can induce one fairly easily, if I really put in a serious effort. But I find it very hard to believe that I'm an immortal soul leaving my body or that I am in the real world, floating above myself. The techniques to induce such a state, however, have been very helpful in gaining control of the whole process of falling asleep consciously. But I did not adopt the belief system of an immortal soul hopping from plane to plane. Personally I tend to suspend judgment and just do what works, and serves to hook great interest, which has been vital to me motivationally.

I am not really locked down into a belief system, and was not out to defend one. If something works, it works.

Perhaps I misread your intentions entirely, it is not always easy to correctly assess someone's point of view, especially when it's all just words typed on a screen, and you can't see face to face with the people involved in the conversation. If this is the case, I apologize for jumping to the incorrect conclusion and consequently making an ass of myself.

Ryan: yes, it is indeed difficult to correctly access someone's point of view, especially when that someone takes as much delight in ambiguity and multiple meanings as much as he does in logic and lucidity. ;)

I'm glad to hear that we share the same empirical attitude. Certainly, I'd like to know if any of the techniques in The Art of Dreaming or anywhere else actually work! So just to make this concrete, please state a particular claim derived from Castaneda that might be tested.

One of the concerns I have with untested techniques is that people often seem to present them as if they have the same status as the tried and true. For example, I believe somebody recently mentioned the idea of "focusing on a distant point" as a means of stabilizing dreaming. I find it unlikely to have any specific effectiveness beyond placebo. Compare it to the study we did on dream spinning as a method for stabilizing LDs. As the puts FAQ it: "Research at the Lucidity Institute has proven the effectiveness of spinning: the odds in favor of continuing the lucid dream were about 22 to 1 after spinning, 13 to 1 after hand rubbing (another technique designed to prevent awakening), and 1 to 2 after "going with the flow" (a "control" task). That makes the relative odds favoring spinning over going with the flow 48 to 1, and for rubbing over going with the flow, 27 to 1." If you read the original article (Prolonging Lucid Dreams) you see the care we took to actually compare various techniques, as well as the theory upon which these methods are based. As you say, "if something works, it works." Let's find out what really does!

Hi all you lucids!

I have once (unconsciously?) used one of the techniques CC described. Seemingly successfully. See my dream in

http://www.novadreamer.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?444/1737

dating September 16.

I'm glad, we can continue exchange here together.

Ryan, I didn't suspect you being not sceptic. The way you reported, like I said earlier, made me trust in you having an open mind.

Nonetheless, from my experience I can say, that I profit by looking at the scientific side of my experience, too. I think, I learned a lot here, especially to be cautious with the terms I use, and how I use them. Language is so important, especially in the scientific realm, and in the realm of psychological / spiritual experience. I know, it is boring sometimes to use terms in special sense and to say "OB like experience" instead of "OBE". Like you say, you don't believe being out of body, but using the term in this way may create the impression.

I do believe, we can "leave the body" and survive organic death. I believe we are only temporarily and partly associated with the body. I know, too, that there are hints to support this belief, but no proof, as far as I know. But I have not read that intense in this direction. For me the survival hypothesis simply fits elegantly to my worldview. But I have learned, that it is hard to find experimental designs to prove this hypothesis. Charles Tart said in a late paper, that he isn't satisfied with this situation, what means to me, that there is simply not enough "hard" data. (1)

I'm not quite sure, whether it is provable at all. I think one has to find a way to actually measure what we call the astral body or ethereal twin or the soul. I know, that you can say, there are still the "common" psi effects to explain the observations in the field of reincarnation. And with observations I mean those like Ian Stevenson has done. I've learned here in the forum to get clear about what I believe and what is provable and for which hypotheses we do have some or more evidence.

I think, when Stephen asks about how to prove, he ask, whether a statement can be subject to experimental proof. This would indicate this statement being a hypothesis. A hypothesis is testable. CC was taught to get lucid by finding his hands in dreams. It took him years, as far as I remember, to achieve that goal. So I am happy that I achieved my goal of dreaming lucid in a few months, using the reflection / intention technique, RCs, dreamwork and - only sometimes - the MILD exercise. That is only my case, that shows these techniques seem to be at least comparable to Don Juan's teachings, if not more effective. But are there any studies on the Toltec techniques? What maybe most impressed me was the apparent ability of Don Juan, Don Genaro and CC to materialise a second physical touchable body. This seems to be the Dreaming, the Toltecs refer to. That is more, than what I remember ever being reported by (other) psychic researchers. Has any the of pupils and students and masters in this line ever subjected his abilities to scientific experiment? As a researcher I would do that experiment, it would be ultimately intriguing to me.

Peter

I am still not working again in hospital, because I still suffer with my broken arm and leg. But that somewhat paradisiac time will soon be over. I think, I will be back to my nursing work after November 5th. Man, I do enjoy these weeks, I tell you! They were / are so important to me in respect to dreamwork.

Hope, I reached a new and higher stable level by doing so.

Dream life, live your dream!

Yours Ralf

(1) Charles T. Tart Parapsychology & Transpersonal Psychology: "Anomalies" to be Explained Away or Spirit to Manifest? (Based on an invited lecture given at the August 2001 annual meeting of the Parapsychological Association in New York City)

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles1.cfm

or:

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/uploads/PA%20&%20TP.pdf?submit=Read

And Peter:

Everbody calls me "The Dude", here!

"The Big Lebowsky"

Hope to keep at least the level of joyful lucidity in waking life...

Let's go bowling...

Fact/Fiction, if Castaneda hadn't written "the Art of Dreaming " we probably wouldn't be here discussing our experiences with LDs, because the Lucidity institute would have never existed.

One thing is for certain, the content of "TAOD" has taught many valuable tools as far as developing their LD abillities goes.

I thought this was the "open Coversation" forum anyway. I'm here to share similar experiences with other Ld'ers who have experimented with techniques that CC has written about , not to be told what and how to think about the man...or is Castaneda concidered a Bad Word in this particular corner of cyber-space ?

Ben:

Wasn't "The Art of Dreaming" published in 1993? That's what the Library of Congress says, anyway. Unless there was a previous version of the book that wasn't registered with a copyright, it actually was printed about six years after the Lucidity Institute was established.

And, even if it weren't, the art of lucid dreaming, and the techniques to achieve it, existed long before Castaneda. He was a player in the realms of understanding consciousness, to be sure, and he certainly made some points worth discussing, but to assume that he is responsible for current interest in lucid dreaming is not accurate.

Perhaps the trouble with this discussion is that its participants are experienced lucid dreamers who were disappointed that an author with the cache and built-in expectations of Castaneda did so little to contribute practically to their favorite subject. That won't necessarily make Castaneda a bad word, but it would subject his book to criticism by some fairly well-informed skeptics.

Perhaps we should do what Stephen suggested earlier, and focus on some of the techniques noted in the book. Maybe an experiment investigating their validity would be more constructive than just generally trashing or defending Castaneda the person.

Peter