Hi there Ralf.

You wrote: "Did you do anything to increase your LD frequency after your first LD? What for do you use LDs? What kind of experiments? "

Well after my first lucid dream it seemed as if the exciting mystery of it all was enough to increase lucid dreams. I have gone through phases , however, where I havent focused on them at all and still found myself to have about one a month. In the early years the only thing I ever did was tell myself I was going to see my hands in my dreams, although I did this everytime as I was falling asleep. Eventually though the excitement wore off and I lost focus. Then they decrease in frequency. Then I get excited about them again, and they come back. So I'd have to say that the thing that increases the frequency of lucid dreams for me is the day to day focus on having them, and the feeling of awe that they produce in me. Also I believe it is very important to try and stay aware every single time I go to sleep.

I am currently experimenting with the whole transcendence theme, trying to experience "my higher self". That is an interesting dream you reported, staying busy seems to be important . I had a dream one time where I was running along and suddenly realized I was dreaming. I kept running at first, looking at everything in awe. I stopped running to take a good look around and the lack of activity resulted in immediate dissipation of the dream. When I dropped down onto the grass and ran my hands through the grass, the dream came back. Then I stood up to look around, but wasn't doing anything. The dream scene vanished again, and I woke up. The engagement of ones attention in activity seems important , at least for those of us who have problems staying put in the dream. In the example of using phrases over and over, perhaps it is just the action of speaking that is engaging the attention. The words that are chosen could have different effects as well, perhaps it is possible to make demands of your sub concious mind to get better results. Talking at all in lucid dreams is a new thing for me, but it seems to be effective so far.

Perhaps I will post my "Clarity now!" dreams.

I look forward to further discussions of anything pertaining to dreams : )

Ryan, beware of combining your prolonging technique with your current experiments ;-) --one person at our dream camp became lucid and ordered, "Higher consciousness NOW!" He didn't get quite the results he'd hoped, we all laughed at his report the next morning and that night I dreamed I saw him ordering fast food from a take-out window.

Joy

Hi Joy, yes I'll keep that in mind. I have already tried the phrase "I wish to experience my higher self" and that seemed to produce weird enough results to label "transcendence" I have read that verbal intentions can be taken in different odd ways. In one sample "I wish to have full waking conciousness" which resulted in waking up. That dreams sounds funny, what happened , did he end up at a fast food place called "higher conciousness"? Perhaps, for some, higher conciousness is a burger and a coke.

It was just the briefest little segment interspersed among other dreams, clearly just as a joke on his being in such a hurry to get his higher consciousness. When I told it the next morning everyone laughed and someone said, "Burger and a coke NOW!"

Dreams are great on jokes, and puns especially - like granting your wish for "full waking consciousness." I had something similar happen in a dream in which I was flying a futon like a magic carpet but it was moving very slowly and I found myself impeded by poor vision, extraneous clothing, etc. Dream report excerpt:

Abruptly I decided not to accept any of this, but rather to try what LaBerge had described in his book as "seeking the Highest.' Without further thought or expectations I stood up, threw off all my impediments, straightened out, lifted my arms high and loudly called, "Highest! Highest!'

Immediately I became fragments of blue light which dissolved as I woke up.

Well, I thought as I lay vacillating between going over my recall and trying to regain the dream, I've been learning about Buddhist philosophies whereby the highest aspiration is "dissolution of self" and subsequent "awakening'! I think I'll try something different next time.

Joy

Hi, lucid friends!

Ryan, when you spoke of awe, it reminded me of what is important. I will think about that for a while. Thank you. Joy and Ryan, thanks for putting in your funy and nonetheless encouraging experiences in search of the highest.

Into the light

Yours Ralf

A fly lands on a torch and thinks it has flown to the Sun.

no fly no thought

no torch no sun

no ralf no vember

No, no

Ha so

Ming mo

fatagagadada

I dream I dreamt I forgot I dream I dreamt I remembered I dream I dreamt awake

We dreamed we dreamt we forgot We dreamed we dreamt we remembered We dreamed we dreamt awake

They dreamed they dreamt they forgot They dreamed they dreamt they remembered They dreamed they dreamt awake.

Well I once again tried to use the "clarity now" method. This time however it only seemed to produce about 4 or 5 false awakenings. Finally I did a reality check and forgot all about saying it. The dream started out blurry and when I said clarity now the first time it indeed became crisp and clean, but I thought I had woken up because my perception isn't usually so sharp straight away in the dream. Perhaps it is best to wait until the dream is stable before applying this method.

I had a lucid dream the other day in which I decided to run to stabilize it rather than use the verbal intentions. The dream had begun to fade and I decided to start running and wanted to feel the ground. I ended up feeling the ground with my hands but running along in the dream, on my hands! My dream body wasn't really there like it normally is it was just a disembodied point of reference with 2 hands for legs! It was very odd. It worked very good for stabilizing the scenery, right up until I stopped and made a verbal demand "I want to experience my higher self", which resulted in immediate waking.

Anyway since then I have used the mental visualization of jogging in place to enter several dream scenes that started out as detailed hypnagogic imagery or brief dreamlets. Combined with the nap technique it is almost as if I am jogging right into a dream from waking. I wait until I start hearing sounds and hypnagogic imagery and dreamlets begin to appear. Then I try to feel as hard as I can that I am jogging myself right into the dream scene. The dreams are stabilized, usually right up until the moment I decide to conduct some experiment that results in my waking up, I'll have to work on experimenting while still moving, I have a tendency to stop in my tracks when I'm deciding what to do.

Hi, Ryan! "ell I once again tried to use the "clarity now" method. This time however it only seemed to produce about 4 or 5 false awakenings."

Isn't that a nice success? I think so, at least. "until I stopped and made a verbal demand "I want to experience my higher self", which resulted in immediate waking. [ ] )"

The thing with the higher self is somewhat tricky...

Jogging into a dream. I tried similar techniques. Try to grab and touch something in the dream, try to touch and feel the ground for stabilising. Rub hands, that is a way to keep dream body engaged while standing.

All in all really nice successes!

Keep on good work!

Yours Ralf

Hi Ralf, good to see you back in the typing action, I was wondering where you had been.

I think I'll try the hand rubbing next time, my last few lucid dreams have been kind of short.

I don't know about using Clarity Now for prolonging, but it sure does sharpen that dream scenery for me.

type at ya later heal yourself in a dream

Well I got the chance to use hand rubbing to stabilize and prolong a dream. It worked pretty well; I also tried snapping my fingers, which seemed to have the exact same effect as the hand rubbing. I found myself in a dream that didn't have really good clarity. Rather than demand clarity, I decided to just prolong the dream at its present level of visual quality. An overwhelming visual quality like the one that comes with demanding clarity would wake me up I felt. Several times the dream blacked out, and I calmly rubbed my hands together and it came back. At one such time I decided to snap my fingers, and this had much the same effect, as well as giving auditory substance to the dream. I would also take a brief glance at my hands then look at the scenery when rubbing/snapping. I think this is a good visual aid.

So with snapping the fingers we have feeling, auditory, and visual, provided we also glance at our hands briefly. Now if I could just incorporate taste and smell.

I could only imagine that using all 5 senses in a prolonging method would be effective, overwhelming the dream self with sensations. Perhaps snapping fingers while eating a strong breath mint that also emanates a strong peppermint smell. Maybe I'll try that next weekend when I get to do the nap technique again. Type at ya later!

Dear Ryan

Fine you did the prolonging task. Your experience sounds interesting. Tactile sense seems to be the last to remain. I prefer using it to return or stabilise. I'm not sure, why the auditory sense doesn't play such a great role in prolonging. Maybe it has something to do with the role of auditory signals as a warning for the sleeping early human in danger of the tiger (or smilodon). At least I remember one lucid dream, in which I woke myself up, because I thought sounds like someone walking on stairs were coming from physical reality. Awake I found nothing unusual. No tiger... But all in all it might be useful to activate all senses for the best prolonging effect. I would prefer chocolate if it is for the taste. Maybe one should choose something very tasty. BTW has anybody used LD to eat all the tasty things, not "allowed" in waking life? After I quit smoking I very enjoyed a cigarette in a LD. Dreams with eating get more frequent in my diary. Don't know why. But maybe due to my intention to eat less and move better. Maybe lucid dreams can be of some help for diets.

Keep on good work

Yours Ralf

Hi, lucids!

This is my latest dream - entering / prolonging example. Although pain and twitching of left leg still hinders relaxation, I could initiate another LD this morning in a MILD and nap session. I also collect data for the sleeping position experiment. That is a good motivation and helps to get lucid. For anyone interested:

http://www.lucidity.com/DreamYoga.html

Deadline is November,15 2002

Lucidity Institute's experiments are actually ahead, if you look at the "last modified" date on bottom of the page. (Check, check, ...)

At the end of the non - lucid precursor I enter a bar, because I'm hungry and I want to rest a while (the foregoing was like an action film). I wake up, but don't move, don't open my eyes. I'm lying on my back, hands on the belly. I ask myself, whether I will re - enter dreamstate. And it sounds / feels like some invisible entity asks that simultaneously. My answer is: Of course, I will dream lucid. Then someone holds a page of a magazine before my eyes. I look at that, try to let that draw me into the dreamstate. But the writings morph and I remember not to stare at one point too long. Nonetheless the sparse visual fades. I remember to rub hands. Not too vigorous, but constant, I remember Ryan's report. I try to rub hands and relax, calm down at the same time. It works well in stabilising the dreambody. In fact it feels very realistic. Hm. But the left arm moves absolute free without pain, so it cannot be the physical body. Now I'm sure about my state: I'm dreaming. I'm dreaming I'm lying on my back in bed and rub hands and waggle my feet. I do have somewhat of a tinnitus, but now the wheezing is very loud. And I hear the sound of the PC - fan very clearly, although I did put in earplugs. Astounding auditory effects, but I don't want that to distract me. I focus on dreambody. Again I doubt if I'm actually dreaming. I feel the sleeves on my skin as usual, body feels very realistic. I decide to get my dreambody's movements free. I use willpower to sit up in bed That results in a discontinuously back and forth, a sudden shifting between lying and sitting position. I let go that intention and relax again. Then I try to rotate in bed. That works, but in the end I find myself: On my back. Then I try to roll out of bed and fall to the ground. Dreambody topples over the edge and instantaneous is back on the back. Then I relax again and simply intend to get light and hover. Again I shift, this time between hovering and ... couching on my back. While caring for the dreambody time and again visual fragments did come and go like leaves torn in a strong wind. I'm kinda tired and bored with trying to move. So this time I speak out "loud" another intention: "I want to see!" And in the twinkling of an eye all feeling of dreambody is gone. I feel the physical again. Play dead, but this time it doesn't work. It is no false awakening, as the digital watch confirms. I complete my pre - night intentions and say "Thanks" to my dreamself, higher self or guide or whatever is there, thanks for the last days in respect to (non - lucid) dreaming and healing and opening my heart.

Comment: I don't know why, but the model of physical body was very strong in this case. I more than once doubted my state of mind. But nonetheless I experimented with prolonging and dream - entering. I'm satisfied. And the dream was a good illustration for the paper on "OBE, dreams and REM sleep" by Stephen et al, which I began reading the night before the dream. (See http://www.lucidity.com/new.html) Very interesting in regard to my latest and of course many dreams are the findings of neuro - physiology as mentioned by Stephen et al:

"The representation of "allocentric space" (defined as the external environment in which the observed is embedded) appears to involve different cerebral networks than the representation of "egocentric space" (the localization of the site of conscious experience) (49). Independent activation of these representations could lead to experiences such as perceiving an environment but not a body image, or perceiving one's locus of awareness as being separate from the body."

I think, this applies also to perceiving only a dreambody in a void (without environment).

Hope this was interesting for you

Yours Ralf

Ralf More than interesting. You had quite a lot of control in terms of being able to "stay on task" when you were doubtful of your dreamstate. I have not had much luck getting lucid in the past few nights (even low levels of lucidity), but I will think about your determination to get and stay lucid and try to be inspired! Thanks for sharing your dream as well as all of that good information. Continue to feel better : ) Tracy

That is indeed an interesting account. I have had similar problems with dreams that seem as if I can't get away from my body. Just the other day I had the annoying sensation, every time I started to enter the dream scene that I had stopped breathing! About nine different times I started to enter a dream state only to find that I couldn't breathe. It was my dream body I knew. However this didn't stop how real this situation felt. Every time it caused me to awaken to make sure I was indeed still breathing. I tried to relax and calm down but nothing would work. I wasn't panicked; it was more of an annoying sensation that wouldn't let me continue.

Consciously falling asleep 95% of the time cause me to have a dream scene where I have left the body. As a matter of fact, 90% of my dream experiences are of this nature. It is not a matter of my beliefs, I believe I'm in a dream environment where I am aware. That is as far as I let this thought process go. This is not as limiting a factor as some would think. From this state one can visualize and create any type of dream scenario one wishes, given practice and discipline. Dreams that are utterly unchanging and solid can come from these types of dreams. Ones experience from this state is only limited by imagination. I bring this up because the article in the link Ralf provided above seems to insinuate at the very end of it, that lucid dreams are somehow superior in context, and that out of body type dreams are a lesser experience of a "powerless body of ether'. Experience in this type of dream has led me to understand and realize that there is no need to hang around in the original dream environment whether one believes it to be a reflection of the real world or not. This distinction is highly irrelevant to me. Besides it can be very fun to float around as if in zero gravity, propelled only by "will'(No matter where your dream is)

Excerpt:

"Spiritual teachings tell us that we have a reality beyond that of this world. The OBE may not be, as it is easily interpreted, a literal separation of the soul from the crude physical body, but it is an indication of the vastness of the potential that lies wholly within our minds. The worlds we create in dreams and OBEs are as real as this one, and yet hold infinitely more variety. How much more exhilarating to be "out- of-body" in a world where the only limit is the imagination than to be in the physical world in a powerless body of ether! Freed of the constraints imposed by physical life, expanded by awareness that limits can be transcended, who knows what we could be, or become? '

While this is true it seems to overlook the fact that from the out of body state one can literally get anywhere one is capable of imagining. "Powerless body of ether" is a gross misinterpretation of an out of body experience as indeed the person experiencing said phenomenon often winds up in very intense dream scenarios that are indeed a source of unlimited imagination. While this seems to be arguing the same point I feel it is important that if one is capable of cultivating the ability to have dreams like out of body experiences, and can learn to do it at will then go for it! This is a good way to start a dream experience as any. After all, what works, works. Use it or lose it Once you are in the dream state however; go anywhere you want! Even if you think you are in the "real world" it doesn't matter. There are infinite galaxies and universes to be explored.

Also, anything that robs the mystery of life and awareness is a travesty in my humble opinion.

P.S. oops I got off topic a bit!

I've been able to refine the crawling method of prolonging. It seems very successful for me, even more than spinning.

When the dream breaks up, start to spin. Then Immediately bend down touch the ground, go down on hands and knees and start to crawl as fast as possible. Focus on the sensation of speed and the hands, knees and feet touching the ground. I also sing or shout. I imagine that I'm going to crawl into a dream scene. Almost always a dream scene suddenly appears or the dark gradually lightens and I am in a scene, could be at night.

Clearly this can work for me because when the dream breaks up I can always feel my dream body, and the ground.

Owen

Hi, Owen!

Happy midnight for you in GB

Thanks for the tips, time and again. I had a running prolonging experience lately.

Currently I'm working through the postings in ASD online conference on psi dreams. Stephen will lecture there, too. I think it is (still) worthy to register, it has begun September 23

http://asdreasm.org/psi2002/

CU later dream lucid!

Yours Ralf

Owen, crawling has worked for me too, not for prolonging per say, but for initially entering the dream state. I sometimes visualize myself crawling through my house, or elsewhere, and suddenly find that I am indeed there. Lots of tactile sensation involved there, I hadn't thought to use it for prolonging but it sounds like a good idea.

Keywords: LOOKING

Hi, dreamers!

Thought I'll cross - post this, because it is a very special example of how to keep the dream going. It is somewhat like interacting, but reminds me of a technique to enter dreams from hypnagogic imagery, described in "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming". The OBE tribe has to say something to that, too. In the sense that you should focus on everything, but the physical body to "get out" (Don't want to "get in" to this "get out" discussion here, just want to mention experiences).

Ryan, thanks for reporting your experience.

Ralf

The Lucidity Institute Forum: Open Conversation: Carlos Castaneda , The Art Of Dreaming spec.

By Ryan (Ryan) (12.246.136.253) on Monday, October 07, 2002

• 01:00 am:

Hi all! I have not yet been able to feel my tongue on the roof of my mouth while dreaming. For some reason I keep forgetting! Oh well.

Early this morning however, I did try something new from The Art of Dreaming that I have never tried before. The idea is to, instead of waking up when you feel your dreaming attention waning, focus on the items of your dream and let it pull you into a new dream scene.

I tried just that this morning. When I felt as if I was about to wake up I would focus on a distant object and try to feel it pull me away. I would sort of float slowly towards it at first, then take off with great speed and find myself in a new dream environment! Four different times I felt as if I was going to wake up, but instead I focused on a distant object and zoomed over to it. This was somehow refreshing to my dreaming attention, like a boost of excitement at having suddenly found a new dream environment to explore instead of having woken up. Finally the dream began to fade, but as it did I zoomed off again. I ended up zooming through a black void of vaguely outlined hypnagogic imagery. I knew I was waking up but sort of refused to, I could still feel my self-moving. I kept this going for about thirty seconds. I decided to wake up so I could record my dream. I feel that I could have forced my way back into the dream.

While I do have lucid dreams a lot since I have gotten back into it, to have a lucid dream as long as I did this morning is no less than remarkable for me. I always seem to get too excited or do the wrong thing and wake myself up after a few minutes.

The alternative to this exercise is to dream that you wake up into another dream, like a false awakening but staying aware. Instead of waking up, change the dream scene, or wake up into another dream!

This is definitely another aspect of Nagual Carlos Castaneda's book The Art of Dreaming that I have found extremely effective. It never dawned on me to try this method for prolonging the dream. I definitely think this is a worthy technique to try out.

Type at you all later.

Quoting Stephen from the Castaneda thread:

One of the concerns I have with untested techniques is that people often seem to present them as if they have the same status as the tried and true. For example, I believe somebody recently mentioned the idea of "focusing on a distant point" as a means of stabilizing dreaming. I find it unlikely to have any specific effectiveness beyond placebo. Compare it to the study we did on dream spinning as a method for stabilizing LDs. As the puts FAQ it: "Research at the Lucidity Institute has proven the effectiveness of spinning: the odds in favor of continuing the lucid dream were about 22 to 1 after spinning, 13 to 1 after hand rubbing (another technique designed to prevent awakening), and 1 to 2 after "going with the flow" (a "control" task). That makes the relative odds favoring spinning over going with the flow 48 to 1, and for rubbing over going with the flow, 27 to 1."

Okay"

First of all, if I were Stephen (i.e. in his position), I'd check what I was referencing before expressing concerns about it! As Ralf has cross-posted it above, you can see that all Ryan wrote was that he tried it, it worked for him, and "I definitely think this is a worthy technique to try out.'

Then"

If I were Stephen, I would be really careful not to say anything that might discourage the free explorations of the bold oneironauts in this forum. I would stand back and watch as we generate swarms of testable hypotheses for the Lucidity Institute, absolutely free of charge.

Then I'd test them.

Then (only then!) I'd comment on their value.

Okay, now I'm me, but still thinking along the lines I'd like to see the Lucidity Institute pursue:

I want to know, does focusing on a distant object ' or a close object ' have any demonstrable value as a prolonging and/or scene-changing technique? And what is it about spinning and hand-rubbing?

To me, it seems that the dreaming mind offers the same suite of sensory input as we perceive in waking, and our provisional acceptance of their "reality" keeps us in the dream. When we start to lose a dream, intensifying our focus on any one or several of them might help bring it back. My theory.

As Stephen notes in "Prolonging Lucid Dreams,' "A problem with using vision to stabilize a lucid dream is the fact that when a dream ends, the visual sense fades first. Other senses may persist longer, with touch being among the last to go.'

The experiment he reports didn't test vision, though. It tested two techniques, one relying on a very strong kinesthetic sense, the other combining kinesthetic and tactile senses, against a do-nothing "go-with-the-flow" control. He concluded,

"The results of this experiment seem very clear: both the spinning and rubbing techniques are effective means of prolonging lucid dreams. The fact that the rubbing technique worked as well as it was predicted to supports the theory behind the prediction: that interaction and sensory experience in the dream inconsistent with perception of the state of the body in bed will suppress awakening.'

Let me brainstorm some further testable hypotheses to test this and my differently-stated but analogous theory, based on my own experience and those of all of you reporting in this "Prolonging" thread:

1. Focusing on anything in a dream helps prolong the dream.

2. Focusing on some types of sensory input is more effective than focusing on others, e.g.: -Kinesthetic is more effective than visual. -Tactile is more effective than visual. -Kinesthetic is more effective than tactile.

3. Spinning is more effective than other strongly-engaging kinesthetic inputs because of its strong stimulation of the vestibular system, which may be involved in REM sleep (Stephen's hypothesis, as yet untested).

4. Focusing on a strongly-engaging sensory input that demands undivided attention, such as spinning, is more effective than a milder one such as hand-rubbing (an alternate hypothesis, if spinning is more effective. Stephen's study had too small a sample size to determine if spinning was more effective than hand-rubbing).

5. Focusing simultaneously on more than one type of sensory input is more strongly-engaging and more effective than focusing on only one.

If I had all day to spend at this, I'd devise tests for all of these ' but for now I'll leave it at that, and hope LI someday has the time and funding, and the requisite statistically-significant number of volunteers. That's us!

Meanwhile let's keep playing and reporting our results. Here, in somewhat arbirtrary categories, are some of the testable techniques we've generated so far:

Visual: closely examining a nearby object focusing on a distant object looking at many different things in succession

Kinesthetic: dancing jumping running moving the tongue within the mouth continuing any movement underway in the dream playing a musical instrument (adds audio)

Tactile: touching dream objects

Combined kinesthetic and tactile: hand-rubbing crawling rolling on the ground spining and reaching down to feel the floor spinning or crawling while holding dream objects touching highly sensitive parts, e.g. lips, tongue rubbing a dream character's hands (and other parts)

Combining kinesthetic and visual: keep moving while observing the changing view

Voice: singing shouting statements of intent, e.g. "Clarity now!"

Mental/emotional?: Interacting with dream characters Trying to solve a riddle posed within the dream

Back at the beginning of this thread Ralf quoted my empirical general principle:

"Keep the dreaming attention engaged in the dream world with details from all the senses. And don't try to take complete control but knowingly go along with the game."

It would be interesting and valuable to tease out which senses in which combinations are most engaging. And let's not forget to determine which work best for staying in a dream scene vs. changing scenes at will. Only controlled experiments with a significant sample size can ultimately do that. We should all volunteer when LI designs another test. Meanwhile, same as Stephen first stumbling across his spinning technique, we generate the ideas as we play. And remember what we learned as kids: if the playground supervisor blows the whistle, wait until he's not looking and then go back to what you were doing -

Joy

Joy, thanks for the excellent summary of dream stabilisation techniques for us to try.

Under "prolonging" I would like to distinguish between techniques for maintaining or hardening up a visual dream scene (eg hand rubbing) and techniques for continuing into a new dream scene when the current dream scene has faded and we're on the way to waking up (eg spinning).

Hand rubbing doesn't seem to work too well for me personally, but I feel I have a lot of success in getting back into a new dream scene by spinning, crawling or rolling in the dark etc.

It's hellish difficult providing good quality scientific evidence that one technique is better than another. Stephen and the participants in the rubbing, spinning, flow experiment should be proud of their advance.

Given the effort required in a proper experiment it's necessary to choose very carefully which experiments to do.

Ad far as I can see the suggestions of CC are mainly hypotheses, ie they are guesses. We can all do as well. Speaking personally I don't see evidence that CC is a better expert than I am at LDing technique. However I bow down before Stephen and Keelin.....I don't bow down uncritically because even the greatest experts can get it wrong sometimes.

Owen

Hey, thanks! I just logged on 'cause I remembered I'd meant to say just that - about maintaining vs. restoring the dream state.

And I agree wholeheartedly with everything else you wrote as well.

Joy

Spinning dream: (Boring lucid dream prior to spinning left out)

As soon as I went outside, the change of scenery trapped me in detail and the dream began to fade. I started walking down the street to my grandma's house but it was no use, the dream scenery was washing out. I started to fly up, but then abruptly changed my mind and decided to spin. I spun around and the dream blended into golden dots spinning around and around. All dream items were gone, turned into these golden lines, very short almost like dots, turning in a centrifugal pattern with my awareness in the center. I kept on spinning, convinced that the extreme sense of motion would indeed keep the dream in check. I said to myself, "The next thing I see will be a dream.' An entire dream scene "flashed" into place, taking over my perception of the spinning vortex of gold light. I kept spinning however, as it seemed a bit hazy. When once again the same scenery presented itself, I stopped spinning and found myself laying in the middle of a road as if I had just woke up in this new scene. The place struck me as familiar, I was sure I had visited the place in lucid dreams while I lived with my grandma. It was a wealth of memories from the time when I didn't record lucid dreaming in a journal, and as I stared at the very cohesive dream scenery around me totally perplexed, I forgot to spin and the dream slowly faded. When I woke up I silently thanked Dr. LaBerge for a cool technique. I felt dizzy and had a slight headache that wore off in about 5 minutes.

I clearly remembered upon waking, wandering around that place and going into a clubhouse in a lucid dream some 15 years ago. I wish I had started a dream journal when I began lucid dreaming at age 12. This is an extremely odd feeling, as if I live a separate life that I only sometimes bother to recall, and wouldn't recall at all without conscious effort and a good deal of time devoted to making records of my experiences. Too bad I had absolutely no patience (or inclination) to write back in the day.

Since I noticed the dream was fading and decided to spin before it completely faded, is this to be construed as restoring or maintaining the dream? Is it really restoring it if the visual imagery has not faded, even though it was getting vague? Or just changing the dream scene? Perhaps I just dreamed that the scenery was getting vague, then changed the dream scene and thought I had restored it? Did I prolong, maintain, or just plain change the dream scene?

Ahhh, but it sure is fun, isn't it?

Dream free.

11/18/02 Spontaneous-nap Change dream scenes/prolonging/flying

I was sitting in some bleachers holding a weird black object that really didn't make any sense to me. I was spinning it around in my hands looking at it. It was rectangular, black metal. The edges of it were flanged out. In short, it didn't make any sense why I had it or what it even was. As I was spinning it in my hands I realized I was dreaming. I didn't do anything, just tried to prolong the original context of the dream. It was too late, my attention to the details around me had frozen the dream scene and it was starting to wash out. I got the feeling that it was about to fade.

I wanted to test out my theory that it doesn't matter how one change dream scenes to prolong a dream as long as one adheres to the basics. I believe that three things are relevant to a successful prolonging by changing dream scenes. One, that the person notices a distortion in the dream that signifies it's pending end. Two, that the person consciously and willfully intends to change dreams into another dream scene (or does so out of dream habituation). Three, that the person involves the dream body in some kind of dramatic movement that explains the loss of visual context to the mind as well as gives a prolonged sensation of movement. I guess you could add a fourth, that the dreamer notices in time and is able to act on their decision before the dream fades entirely.

I am not trying to prove anything to anyone; these are my personal notes of how I react to my dreaming. My experience with spontaneous lucid dreams lately is that I almost immediately begin to awaken if I do not change dream scenes, so changing dream scenes is proving to be a valuable tool for me. Not to mention that if I do sustain the original dream scene it's usually not where I want to be anyway. I do recommend giving changing the dream scene a go to the short lucid dreamer. So far I've used zooming to objects, spinning, and diving straight down through the fading images to successfully change dream scenes. Every successful attempt is the same, I notice the dream going hazy and washed out, I engage in some movement and intend to enter a new dream. The dream goes black but I still feel the movement and then I'm in a new dream. The fact that I am already in motion tends to help keep me there as well, If I was just standing and looking around I tend to wake up. Annoyingly, this happens to me after spinning. I'll stop to look around at the new dream and as I'm checking it out I wake up due to the lack of movement. Lack of movement is terrible for me, gets me every time.

As I noticed the hazy washed out appearance of the dream in my peripheral, I decided to prolong the dream state by changing dream scenes. I didn't feel like spinning or zooming so I just dove off the bleachers into mid-air and intended to change dream scenes rather than wake up. The dream went totally black as I hurtled through mid air. I never hit the ground; it was gone before I got there. Then I realized I was staring at some dark water below me. I instinctively knew that if I did not immediately engage in some activity the scene before me would dissipate. It seemed really dark. I dove down into the water and began swimming.

I was swimming down a small river or large creek. The water was dark blue, the sky cloudy. There was a small waterfall behind me, about 10 feet high. The white water cascaded down it into a wider pool like area. This is the area I splashed into. There was small cliff like embankments to either side of the pool. Lush tropical green trees where everywhere. Thick green bushes were packed in tight around the bases of the trees. There were lots of tree limbs stretching out over the stream, as if trying to reach to the other side. I gazed up at one particular branch carefully, and noticed that it positively glowed with an inner light. It had an energy or aura around it.

I kept swimming down stream for a bit then jumped out of the water and began running through the forest at an incredible rate, snapping branches and shoving tree limbs out of the way. It struck me as odd that many of the branches were brittle and easily snapped. The place seemed more tropical and less dry, but apparently there was some lack of moisture to account for the brittle limbs. As I was running through a particularly thick area, a passing breaking branch scraped into my hand and it bled a little bit.

I totally ignored it and kept running, with the stream on my left. Quite abruptly the dense forest ended, into a sandy mushy beach. About 20 feet from the edge of the forest was the ocean or perhaps a huge lake .I gazed out across the expansive water. I could not see to the other side, which suggested that it was indeed an ocean. The twenty-foot wide beach area was like a band that consistently traveled each direction around the body of water. The water itself was a dark lustrous blue that hardly seemed to reflect much light. My senses reeled making me feel a bit dizzy as I gazed across that awesome body of water.

About 200 yards down stream were some quite obviously tribe like people with spears. There were three of them. They were wearing very short skirt like coverings that looked to be made of material similar to what baskets are made from. The upper torsos were bare, and they were extremely muscular. They looked over at me and pointed, acting very excited. I got the impression that they had been out fishing, although I saw nothing to validate this impression. For some reason I did not want do deal with them. I turned back the direction I had come and flew off into the air.

I quickly flew over the terrain I had run through, getting a nice overhead view. I headed towards the neat little waterfall; half expecting to see a path leading back into the dream I had come from. There was nothing there but the waterfall. As I flew I decided that it was time to wake up and write all this down. I intended to wake up by closing my eyes, and it worked.

Hi, Ryan. Well, you've inspired me to try prolonging next time I LD and find myself waking. I've always given up too easily before, assuming waking was inevitable. It tends to happen kind of fast, but I'll try to try. (I never know what I'll really remember to do when LD'ing, although I seem able to recall things about the forum fairly well.) And I see the connection to movement. I always tend to be walking in LD's - it's taken for granted that I'm moving along, never really stationary. What a wonderful, vivid dream! I enjoyed picturing it very much. When you wrote about diving into fading scenery I planned to ask you to describe an example, and then you did. I loved it when you dove toward the ground, which disappeared before you got there, then entered black water and ended up in the waterfall pool and swimming down the stream. Also liked your flying back over the terrain, and the idea of a pathway back to the original dream. Your bio picture is very attractive, too. Kate p.s. I'm 5'5. Do qualify as a short lucid dreamer?

Ryan

Thanks for sharing prolonging experience.

"Did I prolong, maintain, or just plain change the dream scene?"

I can't answer that really, but suspect you prolonged the dream.

"Perhaps I just dreamed that the scenery was getting vague,"

Tell me, what is the difference between prolonging a lucid dream and in a lucid dream dreaming of prolonging? What is the difference of seeing something in a dream and dreaming of seeing it?

It is no rhetorical question. It reminds of : What is the difference of dreaming lucid and dreaming to be lucid?

Ralf

Kate, then I must be a long lucid dreamer with 1,84 m. 8)

Ralf, we meet again. I'm embarassed to say I have no idea how tall you said you are, but I could always take the trouble to check a metric conversion table. I feel that when we're lucid, we are dreaming and conscious at the same time. To me, Ryan prolonged his dream - he did not dream he prolonged it. Because it was the conscious part of his mind that decided to take an action that would prolong the dream. If he hadn't felt the dream fading, he wouldn't have dove off the bleachers. His diving off the bleachers was not a part of the original dream, and wouldn't have happened if his conscious mind hadn't interceded. (Of course it's possible he would have, but what are the odds?) So even though he was dreaming he dove off the bleachers, he was consciously prolonging the dream. He dreamed that the scenery was getting vague, because the scenery was part of the dream, and the dream was fading. To me, if you see something in a lucid dream, you are dreaming of seeing it. If you consciously make the secenry change, you are still dreaming you see the new scenery, because you are still dreaming. But you didn't dream you changed the scenery, because you made a conscious decision to try to change it. This may be "a distinction without a difference" to some, but it makes sense to me and is part of what is so fascinating and wonderful about LD's for me. Happy lucids, Kate

Kate!

No need to justify, at least not in anything you wrote here until now. I agree with Joy in that!

1 meter is 3.2809 feet, so I would say I'm approximately six feet high. A long lucid dreamer, like I said. Hope that charateristic will soon carry over in the dreaming state...

Thanks for your answer. You know, someone said sometimes, he only dreamed, he was lucid. And we discussed it. I think, that won't work. Lucid is lucid.

Be lucid!

Hi, Ralf! Thanks. I'll stop justifying and apologizing. And thanks for once again saving me from having to look something up for myself. I hope your LD's live up to your height also, and beyond. I don't recall the discussion to which you refer, although I may look it up sometime with the keyword search. I do know that when I've LD'd it often feels as if the whole thing was purely a dream - that I only dreamed I was conscious within the dream. Other times, particularly when I recall calmly trying to reference my memories of the forum for tips, I have a clear memory of being truly conscious within the dream. Actually, I guess there is always the feeling, after an LD, that it was totally a dream. I guess this is because even though there was a degree of consciousness, it was still an experience quite outside waking life. But I still know the difference. Live lucidly, Kate

Kate/Ralf:

This could be a good segue into a separate thread of discussion: How, after waking, do you confirm that the experience you just had was a lucid dream?

As Kate noted, the accomplished LD'er will "know the difference," but what about all the novices?

Think about it. If you have never had a lucid dream, and then spend much time learning about them and practicing to have one, what's to stop an obliging mind from providing dreams in which you think you're lucid? And, if your mind went to all the trouble to make you truly believe you were lucid, how will you be able to argue with it?

Just a thought.

Peter

Here's a thought: It just never happens in waking life that we're convinced we're actually dreaming. (At least for the majority of us!)

So any time you believed you knew you were dreaming within a dream, you did indeed know it. That's lucidity by definition.

(That's at least minimal lucidity by definition, for those of us who like the idea of degrees of lucidity. Another level would be, for instance, acting on the knowledge by doing something that would be impossible in waking life.)

Joy

Forum dreamers_

I just finished reading through a few of the latest entries in this thread. Thank you for your posts I have enjoyed reading them.

Joy's comment about degrees of lucidity reminded me of a thought I had relating to prolonging LDs. I am one who tends to see lucidity in levels or degrees. In fact, I see lucidity as a level of awareness independent of your state of consciousness ' but that's another conversation. The thought I had was about prolonging. I have found in my experiments that my ability to prolong the dreamstate is directly proportional to my level of lucidity. Has anyone else had the same experience? If this holds true as a rule then theoretically it would be possible to reach a level of lucidity in which the dreamstate could be prolonged indefinitely.

Ya" I know" it's a little far fetched" right? but it might be possible" Maybe we'll discover a powerful technique in the translation of an ancient dream yoga text - a technique that will make it all possible" or maybe I should just keep practicing"

Shane

Shane - Hi! Either you're new here, or have returned after a long absence? - Welcome, in either case. Make yourself comfortable. Ralf will be here to interrogate you shortly. ;-)

Indefinitely...

So... you mean, like, never wake up??

Or staying asleep, dreaming and lucid far beyond the time you'd normally sleep?

Or prolonging as long as you want, as long as you're asleep anyway? That's definitely within reach - I've had several lucid dreams that went on and on as I prolonged and re-entered with ease, until I finally decided to wake before I forgot all that had transpired. (Also still have ones where I wake up the moment I become lucid, and everything in between!)

The correlation with level of lucidity is an interesting thought. I think of the ability to prolong as one of the varying aspects of lucidity, others including sharp perception with all the dream senses; clear thinking; the abilities to form a clear intent, to exercise the intent successfully, to alter oneself and one's surroundings,to recognize that anything is possible; and higher sense perceptions such as telepathy. (All of value in other states of consciousness as well!)

I'll think about whether those and other aspects seem to correlate with prolonging ability in my dreams. Other readers, what do you notice in yours?

Just now I'm awake at 3:30 a.m. after what I thought was a high degree of lucidity while I was in it - but was cut short by pain from my physical body. (Interesting little dream, though: I flew to the top of a tall building and found myself confronting the evil Vice President of Marketing! I woke as I read his latest slogan, something like "In the beginning was The Word, and it became The Product"!)

A cup of herbal tea in hand, a warm bath running, a visit to the forum as the tub fills... soon I'll go back and see if I can find that raven's egg I set out for....

Joy

Hi, Peter. I think whether or not we know we were lucid depends on degree of lucidity. I've had some dreams that were very low level lucidity, and they definitely felt like just a regular dream. And yet I had the thought within the dream that I might be lucid. So that thought would have to be my proof. Becasuse at that level of lucidity, I wouldn't be able to transform anything. And I might not even think to try prolonging or strengthening, becasue my level of being conscious would be too low. On the other hand, it's probably quite possible for us to dream we're lucid when we really are'nt, so sometimes there probably just is no way to tell. To me, low level lucidity dreams aren't worth anything anyway. But also re your suggestion, maybe it would be good if, while lucid, we did think about what kind of "proof" we could bring back with us to our conscious minds - like some of that great music and artwork we come up with that mostly or completely disappears on us. The practice might help to strengthen the crossover area between our waking and dreaming minds. Shane - I think the you're probably right, that one could prolong a dream for a long time. Joy and some others have mentioned doing so, and actually just deciding to wake up so they could record the dream. Lucky dogs! But it makes sense, becasue the higher level lucidity we have, the more power we have to do things like change the scenery and other prolonging activities, and so go on and one. Joy -congratulations on your ability to dream on and on that way. I consider you an inspiration. And you're not even that tall, even in your bearded version. Anyway, if we never hear from Shane again, we can possibly guess why...

Well, after writing that last night, I went back to sleep and soon was walking along a trail when I was confronted by two park rangers who wanted to know if I'd come from the campground. I said, "Well, I started there but just now I came from that way," pointing west. They said, "You mean East Hill?" and I said I guess so, seeing as it was to the east. Then I fell on the ground and blamed the rangers: "Look, you made me get all dirty!" I crossed a road and stumbled along trying to find where the trail started again. I could hardly see or walk. Why? Oh - I must be dreaming! - and I woke up.

How's that for low-level lucidity!?

Inspirationally yours,

Joy

Hi, prolonged friends!

Nice discussion going on here. Of course I think, that mental clarity / higher lucidity is largely influencing our abilities of prolonging.

Kate, some of my low level LDs are among the most intense experiences in my life. Don't blame them, enjoy!

Joy, here I am, interrogating.... ;-> Sitting here with a cup of tea, too.

Shane!

from a quick research in the forum threads I found a post of yours dating June 25, 2000. It seems nobody answered your ideas for ND improvements. I hope this time you'll find more feedback among this weird bunch of oneironauts. Welcome back here!

It is reported of Eastern and Western dreamers being able to stay lucid night and day. Joy is getting close to that in her ways. I wonder what has happened in the last two years in your lucid dreaming life. What were / are your experiences with the Novadreamer? And now the standard questions: How did you come to lucid dreaming at all? What are your preferred techniques for inducing LD, prolonging LD, what for do you use LD and how does dealing with lucidity affect your life?

Peter

When waking up in a dream, how do you know what you seemingly experienced before sleep was consciously experienced? I know this effect: Some faculty inside of me wants to say: This was not real! Although LDing is as real as a dream can be!

I'm still not convenient with these thoughts, but I'll present them here: Another part of the lecture of: John Woolman's Light in the Night: An Analysis; George Gillespie; Dreaming, Vol. 10, No. 3, 2000. p 154 f:

"4. Understanding. ... Understanding is never a simulation of anything and cannot itself be divided into states. It is through understanding that dream simulations seem to be perceptions and true body experience and that visual forms seem to be things placed around me."

"5. Action. ... While the [dream] imagery I direct may be a simulation, I do not simulate directing. If I direct my attention or my thinking, no simulations are involved."

Gillespie uses phenomenology to exam experience. He is a lucid dreamer, too. I think his thoughts apply to the discussion, whether we can dream (simulate) lucidity. His answer would be "No." Understanding would I translate in our case with mental or cognitive functioning. And while we can see lucidity as metacognition, it does not fall into the category of things or processes, that can be simulated / dreamed.

I once had a OBE like LD, that makes me ponder the boundary of directing and simulating: I posted this one in this thread, I think: When I finally managed to free myself, I was involuntarily running on my bed towards the window.

I never experienced similar involuntary action, but the question for me is, how complex are the procedures available in our brains / minds? Don't they come close to feeling as if we do them arbitrarily in our non lucid dreams? Don't we make decisions in our non lucid dreams, don't we think about this or that? I think we do. But of course, there is something more in LD, that is the reference to the state, we are in. This cognitive act makes us see through the experience and unveil it as simulation. But the question for me is: Is the freedom of choice, we seem to experience in non lucid dreams a simulation?

In our physical waking life we encounter similar situations, where I think, we unconsciously decide doing this or that. We unconsciously get into a quarrel. So, is our tendency to quarrel a simulation? Is the way we habitually react a simulation? Can we simulate a thought, an emotion? I'm just not sure where to draw the line, I wonder, what you think.

Yours Ralf

Joy, Kate, & Ralf:

Okay. I give up. This is a subject that I knew would not be welcome in this environment, but I had to broach it because I had just that morning experienced yet another dream that had assured me that I was lucid when in truth I was not. Just let me make a couple of responses to you guys, and then we can all forget that I mentioned it.

Joy:

In waking life we indeed never have an opportunity to sanely convince ourselves that we are dreaming, but don't we regularly experience our mind's almost unlimited capacity for convincing ourselves of something that might not jibe with reality? For instance, how many people drag themselves out of bed before dawn every day to commute to the mindless purgatory of corporate employment, waste the day providing generally dispensable service to an uncaring employer, yet come home convinced that the day was well spent? On a less dismal level, don't people lose themselves in books and movies regularly, convinced momentarily of their reality? On an extreme level, don't you know people who have convinced themselves that they love, or are loved by, fools who want nothing to do with them? And don't you know people who have created a fantasy world of opinions about their world that have separated them from any hope of comprehending reality while they are awake? Can't the reverse be true? The human mind has a massive capacity for compensation, and if lucidity becomes a major goal, to the point where it is unquestionably expected, then isn't there a chance that we might just dream that we're lucid? To assume that the feeling of consciousness, the awareness that "this is a dream" alone defines lucidity belittles the potential of the human imagination.

Kate:

Bringing back proof is an excellent example of determining that you were lucid instead of just enjoying a convincing dream. Simpler yet, the proof can lie in the memory of the dream itself, and not necessarily even have to be something special from the dream. When we're lucid, we're conscious, so the memory of a lucid dream should be just like a memory from waking life, shouldn't it? So, if your dream fades fast upon awakening, maybe there is a chance that it only seemed lucid. Oh, and I personally (and obviously, I guess) have a problem with degrees of lucidity. I think that if you can't prove to yourself that you're lucid (i.e., spin, look at your hands, fly at will, change the scene, etc) but are in thrall to the plot of the dream, you might not be truly lucid. You might be mildly aware that you're dreaming ' I doubt that there is an experienced lucid dreamer who is ever not even slightly aware he or she is dreaming ' but not necessarily conscious and in control.

Ralf:

Thanks for the examples. As usual, you hit (with your own thoughts, not the other guys') right on what I was talking about: There is something more to a lucid dream. But it's not just the reference to the state we are in (I am sure, based on experience, that we can be fooled about that). A lucid dream isn't just an awareness of the dream, but it must include our conscious participation in it. This is critical. Not to mention that this participation is what makes the experience worth all the effort.

Thanks all for letting me respond at such length to this clearly unpopular theme.

Now back to prolonging'.

Peter

Our Ralf, and all,

Those are profound thoughts, and what a wonderful context in which to examine them.

I do believe we have varying levels of lucidity in waking life as well, and most of us live most of the time reacting to illusions which we sincerely believe must be true. ("Of course she meant to offend me! Of course I must react with fury!" - let alone, "Of course solid matter is immutable!")

Myself included. I strive toward "being lucid night and day" and can only say that I think my level of lucidity is increasing!

As per the dream yogis, lucid dreaming really does seem to help promote waking-life lucidity. It becomes a habit to think of everything as a perception subject to intent, and to cultivate clarity of perception and intent. And a sense of wonder, and silliness.

In this context I'd prefer not to "draw the line," but accept the continuum.

The only reason I have to draw a line is that I'm participating in LI's sleep position experiment and Stephen insists we don't rate "degree of lucidity"! (We had a conversation about this a year or so ago under the LI experiments topic.)

This morning I drew the line a little lower than I have before, based on my minimum criterion in response to Peter's posting. I was driving a van full of colleagues to an important meeting when a heavy snowfall began. I made a remark about what I'd do if I were dreaming. In fact I was pretty darn sure I was, but I didn't want to alarm my passengers with the knowledge that their driver believed she was dreaming!

See, if I were awake I'd never have truly believed I was probably dreaming. I had to be dreaming and knowing it, to think that. But I didn't act on my knowledge, so it was very low-level lucidity.

The dream went on, basically non-lucidly, and I made several careful choices that I'd be pleased with in waking life. I chose not to answer a personal question asked publicly, and responded appropriately. I gauged the distance from a high porch to ground, jumped and wasn't hurt. I accepted a homemade tamale offered me by the girl who made them although I'd already eaten, choosing the smallest one with intent to eat it later. In each instance, still within the dream, I congratulated myself on a good choice!

I'd propose that the freedom of choice we experience in nonlucid dreams is no more or less a simulation than in waking life. Lucidity in both may be understanding that our range of choices is much greater than usually believed.

Your Joy

P.S. wasn't too disappointed at my low-level lucid dream this morning 'cause I had a good, long, lucid one early in the night. At one point while flying I landed to get more tactile sensation - in a dumpster. I thought, now why would I want to be in a dumpster in a dream? Then I remembered: I'd been wondering about the dream-sense of smell! I inhaled deeply through my nose and, yes, pheew, it was ripe and cheesey, very realistic!

P.P.S. In the dumpster I met a man whom I immediately and casually recognized as "myself." We exchanged greetings and set about rummaging for good stuff. (I found an old file box, maybe cedar or rosewood; the lid was labeled "Prayers," which transmuted into "Love." Cool, huh?)

If in both dream and waking life we learn to recognize all characters including those who subsist on trash as, in the highest reality, truly ourselves - now that's lucidity!

Joy:

Well said. And I think that we might be very much the same page about this after all.

Thanks for listening and responding.

Peter

Forum Dreamers_

Thank you all for your comments I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I would like to address Peter in saying that" well I can only speak for my self, but I don't feel that the topic you have addressed here is unpopular at all. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems that the question at the root of this conversation is really this ' What is the definition of lucidity? This is a question that I spent a great deal of time thinking about when I first started studying (and still do). I felt that if I was going to achieve lucidity, I would need to have a solid grasp on what lucidity is (and still do). I don't really mean the textbook definition" but more ' What is its nature?' I've done a keyword search and found that this topic has been discussed in a few other threads, so I hope no one feels that this is overlap, but I was inspired by the last few posts to open a new thread.

Research, theory, and LI experiments > The expanded definition and nature of lucidity >

If anyone else has thoughts on this topic, please share them. I would love to hear your ideas.

To Joy & Ralf_ Thank you for the warm welcome. To answer your questions about me ' I've actually been a forum member for quite a while now. I guess I'm what you would call a lurker. I do a lot of reading but I very rarely post. I decided recently though that it was time for me to start contributing. I'm currently working on a bio to add to my profile that will explain more. Once again" thank you.

Joy_ "Lucidity in both may be understanding that our range of choices is much greater than usually believed.' I resonate very strongly with that statement. One more time" thank you" and congratulations on your success in the dumpster.

Thankfully yours,

Shane

Greetings, Dream Prolonging Enthusiasts!

Many thanks to all of you who are initiating and discussing this very worthwhile topic. I would like to have jumped in earlier, ah, but that waking life does intrude with some unfortunate but undeniable priorities sometimes. Many questions arise, and at the top of the list:

Peter: Can you tell me more about what you meant when you said:

"I think that if you can't prove to yourself that you're lucid (i.e., spin, look at your hands, fly at will, change the scene, etc) but are in thrall to the plot of the dream, you might not be truly lucid. You might be mildly aware that you're dreaming."

I'm curious because I believe one can recognize that one's dreaming, but not necessarily have control over (or even the interest in controlling) elements of the dream environment.

Also, your comment:

"I doubt that there is an experienced lucid dreamer who is ever not even slightly aware he or she is dreaming but not necessarily conscious and in control."

This is another curious statement in light of my personal experiences. How can one be slightly aware but not necessarily conscious? It may be simply a matter of semantics, but while I believe some level of consciousness is required to recall any experience (dreams included), I wouldn't necessarily say I always have some level of awareness that I'm dreaming, regardless of control.

This kind of questioning and exploring, by the way, is exactly what we would want to include in a DreamCamp II, so I especially appreciate that these questions are being brought up and initially discussed here on the Forum. This will certainly help us design a program that addresses the issues and concerns of advanced oneironauts. ;)

And a final question regarding your comment:

"A lucid dream isn't just an awareness of the dream, but it must include our conscious participation in it. This is critical. Not to mention that this participation is what makes the experience worth all the effort."

I know that you know the basic definition of lucid dreaming (which, for those who may not, is simply awareness of dreaming while dreaming), so I sense you're asking more about a more meaningful definition of the potentials of the state? I'm just not sure what you mean by "conscious participation", so would you say more? One memorable lucid dream comes to mind as I write, in which I was aware of the experience as being a dream, but did not participate in any way other than as an appreciative observer. In that dream, I had the impossibly close-up view of a hummingbird dipping it's beak into a morning glory. 'Twas an exquisite vision that moves me deeply even as I recall it, but it surely didn't contain any element of dream participation or control.

Many more questions to be posed, but they will have to wait till the next opportunity to come up for air!

My thanks again for the provocative commentary and good sharing going on here!

Brilliant dreams to all, Keelin

Dear Joy, "Lucidity in both may be understanding that our range of choices is much greater than usually believed." It took me a while for that statement to mean anything to me, but now that it does, I think it's exciting. Much as I love fiction, I'm going to re-read the Tibetan Dream Yogas to get myself more in that frame of mind. Whenever anything gives me an inkling that things are not what I was convinced they were, I'm pleased and excited. That doesn't happen very often, but opening my mind and letting go of the Western viewpoint is something I can strive for. It's just that logic and analysis are not only part of my my culture - they've served me in surviving psychologically. But maybe I can say: "When I became a lucid dreamer, I put away waking coping mechanisms." I identified with your dream of stumbling and stuggling in the dark. It sounds as if you were just near the waking surface, but I've had nonlucids with that kind of frustration and near helplessness that symbolized things. The dumpster dream was wonderful! I never looked at the Gestalt dream analysis concept in terms of all of us being fragments of the same higher power, but that occured to me then. Well, I was wrong, and Shane did not disappear into an endless LD, so we won't have to enter his dream and call: "Come back Shane!" And you were right, Ralf showed up to grill him in his usual friendly and scientific way. Ralf - what you talked about, the subconscious push that causes us to (for example) get into arguments, made me think of the psychological programming we develop and conintue to act whether we like it or not. I would call that behavior involunrary. But I wouldn't connect it with dreaming, and it can be arrested consciously. As for freedom of choice in nonlucids being a simulation, I would say yes. At least within the dream we think we have freedom of choice, but our dreaming mind that's creating the scenario is calling the shots. To me an LD becomes a creation of our dreaming mind and conscious mind. Peter, to me the (dismal) scenarios you mentioned are what I would describe as denial and self-delusion. More coping mechanisms. And while some people are good enough at denial to really believe what they want, I think it must take a lot of effort. But I think on some level they really know the "truth". I'm never sure what to think about that, really. But I don't really see a parallell between that behavior and lucidity. I'm sure someone could convince themselves that they had had LD's when they really didn't, but I don't think this is what happens in most cases of people waking up and recalling LD's. And here I am being highly analytical... What would have been a more spiritual take? Regards to all, Kate

Dear Keelin:

So many things to think about on a Monday morning, but I'll try to answer anyway, even though I should be saving it all for Dreamcamp II! ;)

First, you're correct ' I was presenting the idea that lucid dreaming involves more than just awareness, that it must also include conscious participation. And, as I noted above, my rationale for this draws from my suspicion ' and experience ' that our minds are fully capable of tricking us into believing we are lucid, even if we are not. In her challenge to my idea, Kate nicely acknowledged that, even if we fool ourselves, at some level we understand the truth. That level, in sleep and waking life, is lucidity.

Proving to yourself that you are lucid by symbolically stepping away from the dream is the defining moment of lucidity. You can do this, as your hummingbird dream shows, without changing the dream one wit; simply choosing to be an "appreciative observer,' rather than expectant player, was enough of a sidestep to define your lucidity. Conscious participation requires a decision to recognize the dream as a dream, and apply waking attention to it. You need change nothing, but if you can experience the dream while being aware of your own existence ' consciously participate ' you're lucid.

Joy mentions somewhere above that there are arguably different levels of lucidity. She is of course correct, but I'd like to question where those levels begin. Isn't that subtle awareness that you are dreaming, that whisper of confusion that begs you to notice an oddity in a dream, the point from which you become lucid? If that's the case, then how can you be lucid before you're lucid? That trigger to become lucid could, and should, be defined as awareness, but isn't it just a jumping-off point? (Yes, shortcuts like WILD's indicate that there are ways to drag your consciousness straight into sleep without benefit of a trigger. Of course, this implies that in those cases we may not have left consciousness at all, so that's probably another font for discussion). After you decide to become lucid, how advanced that lucidity is manifest would depend on your interest in the current dream, your own personal prep work and experience, your depths of creativity, and perhaps your spiritual beliefs. From there the levels can be observed and enjoyed. But not before.

My comment about an experienced lucid dreamer possibly retaining a mild awareness of his dream might have been slightly off base; I was just stretching my suggestion that awareness is a forebear to lucidity, and not lucidity itself (and, if we spend so much time training for LD's and then experiencing LD's, then perhaps this awareness might become integral to our "regular" dreams). I'll take it back for now by chalking the statement up to exhausted semantics. However, such a topic might be fun at Dreamcamp II!

Peter

Kate:

You may have misunderstood my suggestion. Lucidity and the "denial" I noted above are two different things; opposites by the sharpest measure. There is no parallel. That was my point. Lucidity in dreams and in waking life can often be difficult to achieve and maintain (hey, I had to at least mention prolonging!), and an interested but perhaps unconsciously impatient person's mind might choose self-delusion to alleviate that person's struggle to recognize what they know in their soul as the truth.

When a dreamer finally makes the jump to lucidity, these false lucid dreams would be easily recognized as such, because the experience of lucidity is, well, obvious.

Not a very spiritual take, I'm afraid, but at least I managed to sneak in the word 'soul!'

Peter