It would appear that some of you are able to induce LDs and/or attain OOBEs, subjects which fascinate but, once achieved, what then? Is it simply the question of another method of dreaming or moving through space or objects but to no purpose? If there is no personal goal why then the interest?

I cannot answer this question as I have not gained control over those features but to those who have, what gain has been made and to where has the path lead? I have had lucid dreams, some of which have been enjoyable while others not so but they have been random and there has been no personal advantage nor gain other than the pleasure or interest in different styles of dream. I had one short OOBE which I found liberating and exhilarating but without control I am unable to contribute further so what is the aim in this common pursuit of ours?

For me, it is the exploring of a vast, unlimited frontier.  It is made all the more challenging by the infrequency of my lucid dreams and the difficulties I have with control.

I find the exploration absolutely fascinating and compelling, and find the experiences quite fulfilling and enjoyable.  My goals, then, are to explore, gain skill, and enjoy.

For me its to achieve the ultimate enlightenment: returning to the root of who I am, an immortal spiritual being.

Therefore, personally, for me there is no short cut. No medication or chemical to get me back there faster as firstly thats cheating in my opinion, secondly they will more likely than lead me astray.

Its not the experience I am looking for, its the end result I wish to get, although I will no doubt cherish the journey.

I also wish to use what I can learn along the journey to heal others, thats part of my calling as a medical practitioner.

So far, I have somehow attained spontaneous Kundalini Shakti without having to spend years studying under a Master. It has given me total bliss for the last 2 days. To me, this is why I chose this path.

I am not in disagreement with either of you; it is a fascinating subject but on reading of the experiences of others and of the various techniques used to accomplish LDs could, what is being witnessed, be nothing more than the power of the imagination?

The common feature that comes across with more than a resounding tinkle is that of the imagination. The placebo effect is a good analogy. I recall reading about one research project where those of the control group had the higher incidence of success! I am also reminded too of the biblical tale of the ill woman who touched the cloak of the carpenter's son as he was moving through the crowd and exclaimed to all and sundry that she had been cured. Recall what Jesus said? (My apologies to those who are not Christians).

Nature provides us with this instinctual imagination which is tempered by nurture and hence possibly our different beliefs, values, expectations, and dreamscapes. It seems that the late French psychologist's, Emile Coue's observations and theories were appropriate. See: http://emilecoue.wwwhubs.com/ and that of http://www.brucelipton.com/ as typical examples of the formidable power of the imagination.

I could not have imagined the sensation of a million watts thunderbolt shooting through my spine and exploding in my head, shaking my whole body and making all my fingers and toes go tingling.

Furthermore I am certainly not imagining this continual state of bliss I am in. The nature of the imagination does not allow such a feeling to last this long. To be able to imagine something, you need to have a predetermined expectation of the experience. I had no expectation, no prior knowledge of what could be possible when it came to that particular experience.

However, even if its the result of my imagination, so what ? It has made me so much happier, more loving, more caring, more productive ...

As you are searching for the experiences, you bother yourself with the authenticity of the experience. Since I am looking for results, as long as the desired results can be achieved, the experiences themselves become less important.

Edited to add: This is why too that I dont want to use any type of chemicals to induce LD or OBE, I only use meditation and natural methods like WILD or DILD, that way I can be more sure of the authenticity of the experience.

I share your views but, there are 'buts'! The sense of bliss might just arise from the sense of achievement and other harmonious features to your life at this moment, however, I am not denying what you say as I have had too many psychic experiences showing another aspect to life but, equally, the imagination has its own intelligence that is powerful and works differently to that of our logical mind and so often I detect its influence at play.

Lucid dreaming, in my own world, should ultimately result in oneness of mind. Dreams are controlled mostly by parts of the brain beyond our awareness. By directing, influencing, and melding into that part of the brain, the brain should become stronger in our waking lives. Perhaps our memories will intensify. Our reaction time and coordination will most likely increase (it has been shown in athletic studies that meditating or lucid dreaming of a sport will improve performance more than playing the sport alone). And, maybe best of all, we will be more in-tune with our underlying motives for our actions. That is the main goal.

Of course, oneness is a pretty lofty goal. In the mean time as you work on lucid dreaming, you will be able to isolate strangeness in everyday life, become more aware of your dreams, become more aware of your senses, become more aware of conditioned responses, and become more aware in your surroundings. In short, by becoming aware in your dreams, you truly 'wake up' in waking life.

See? Nothing ethereal in that post. No spirits, chakras, OBE. Just straight benefits, with a light reference to the subconscious (though I try to see the subconscious as a part of myself, not some mysterious taboo). Even without the New Age stuff, lucid dreaming sounds pretty appealing, doesn't it?

QuoteAs you are searching for the experiences, you bother yourself with the authenticity of the experience. Since I am looking for results, as long as the desired results can be achieved, the experiences themselves become less important.

Edited to add: This is why too that I dont want to use any type of chemicals to induce LD or OBE, I only use meditation and natural methods like WILD or DILD, that way I can be more sure of the authenticity of the experience. That was contradictory. A bit is getting lost in translation here. But I think I know what you are getting at. If the experience is produced with nothing more than the power of the mind and/or spirit, the experiences and rewards will be more fulfilling than with cheap, faster means (drugs and such).

Anyway, I agree with what you said earlier in your post. Who cares if one believes Zeus sends out lightning, or the difference in charges between the earth and sky? As long as both parties know lightning is dangerous, the result is the same. The same goes for lucid dreaming and OBEs. But just as scientists shouldn't waste time making pious people believe the latest discoveries, religious and spiritual people shouldn't waste time trying to make scientists believe their own (unfalsifiable) claims.

Quote from: Jennings on June 04, 2008, 10:00:03 PMI share your views but, there are 'buts'! The sense of bliss might just arise from the sense of achievement and other harmonious features to your life at this moment, however, I am not denying what you say as I have had too many psychic experiences showing another aspect to life but, equally, the imagination has its own intelligence that is powerful and works differently to that of our logical mind and so often I detect its influence at play.

My awake life is not in harmony at all. We are going through a very difficult period with my husband extremely ill with multiple personality disorder and cluster headaches. He lost his job and has been in and out of hospital several times in the last two years. I have not been able to work much as I had to take time off to care for him for months in end. Financially we lost our house and are struggling to pay for food and rent. As of right now, I have $47 in my account and that is all we as the family have to survive on until my pay next week.

Considering my current situation, I should be in a mental hospital myself with major depression and anxiety, not bliss and utter peace and happiness. I dont believe my imagination is powerful enough for this.

Quote from: Abra on June 04, 2008, 10:01:49 PMThat was contradictory. A bit is getting lost in translation here. But I think I know what you are getting at. If the experience is produced with nothing more than the power of the mind and/or spirit, the experiences and rewards will be more fulfilling than with cheap, faster means (drugs and such).

It is not THAT contradictory. What I meant is that I try to make as sure as I can that the experience I have in LD and OBE to be authentic by avoiding anything that can artificially induce them. If its my imagination that does so then its cool too as my imagination is a part of me too as its not an outside chemical.

Quote from: annsie on June 04, 2008, 11:14:50 PMMy awake life is not in harmony at all. We are going through a very difficult period with my husband extremely ill with multiple personality disorder and cluster headaches. He lost his job and has been in and out of hospital several times in the last two years. I have not been able to work much as I had to take time off to care for him for months in end. Financially we lost our house and are struggling to pay for food and rent. As of right now, I have $47 in my account and that is all we as the family have to survive on until my pay next week.

Considering my current situation, I should be in a mental hospital myself with major depression and anxiety, not bliss and utter peace and happiness. I dont believe my imagination is powerful enough for this. Annsie, you are a very strong woman and I admire you greatly for that strength.  I pray that good things are on their way to you and your husband.

Quote from: Clairity on June 04, 2008, 11:25:00 PM Annsie, you are a very strong woman and I admire you greatly for that strength.  I pray that good things are on their way to you and your husband.

Thanks Clairity

Abra, what you said in the first paragraph of your post above can be achieved by the use of the imagination. There is no necessity to master LD to achieve those desired goals so how do we separate the fact from the fiction? There exists some indication that we create our own world, that is, our happiness or unhappiness. When things go well for us we tend to claim the credit but when adversity strikes we seek to project blame outwardly and we are so often blind to what we do to ourselves; we are, indeed, our own executioners. The first rule of adversity should be, 'what's my part in my own downfall'? The second rule might be, 'to understand is to forgive'. Most of us are trapped within the confines of our own imagination; we are prisoners to self-belief and self-doubt.

Any reference I make to religion is not because I am religious, which I am not. There are many secular messages to be learned from the bible so why throw out the baby with the bathwater? I do not believe in angels nor magic but I am psychic which is something that happens to me from outside of myself. If you have not experienced this phenomenon then you are hardly in the position to discuss it or, in particular, to deny or dismiss it.

Annsie, At 3am this morning (UK time; OZ time probably 3pm) you were online and it begged the question, being a young MD, what you did for a living which you have now clarified. I may at times appear to be the devil's advocate but I do not deny what you are saying and, indeed, I am intrigued. I can understand the need to believe that there has to be some purpose to life otherwise why the suffering? It can be difficult to accept that this old world of ours rolls-on impotently through space totally unaware of the disasters created in its wake. To survive, it seems we need to create our own world as we cannot accept the impertinence that we might exist in a vacuum. You have my sincerest commiserations and, may it be added, my admiration of your inner strength.

Quote from: Jennings on June 05, 2008, 06:16:21 AM Annsie, At 3am this morning (UK time; OZ time probably 3pm) you were online and it begged the question, being a young MD, what you did for a living which you have now clarified. I may at times appear to be the devil's advocate but I do not deny what you are saying and, indeed, I am intrigued. I can understand the need to believe that there has to be some purpose to life otherwise why the suffering? It can be difficult to accept that this old world of ours rolls-on impotently through space totally unaware of the disasters created in its wake. To survive, it seems we need to create our own world as we cannot accept the impertinence that we might exist in a vacuum. You have my sincerest commiserations and, may it be added, my admiration of your inner strength.

Thank you very much Jennings for your most kind words. As of now, I am only able to work 3-4 days a week for 4-5 hrs a day. Thats the reason why I have time to pursuit these interest and meditate several times a day.

I used to lament " why me? why us?" but I dont anymore. Its all part of a higher plan. In many ways, the hardships I have endured have helped me become a better person and a more compassionate doctor. Many years ago, there was a period where I was very succesful with work and had a lot of money, but I was not as peaceful as I am now.

Events come and go, thats part of life. No matter how good or how bad something is, eventually it will be just history.

Are you saying, then, that the imagination that fuels the dream is no better than the imagination used in waking life? While there should be no reason that that isn't the case, I do believe that most of us haven't tapped into our waking imagination to the same degree as our dream imagination functions. And even if they were of the same level, waking thought and dream thought arise from different processes, different neurotransmitters.

Anyone can talk about the psychic phenomenon. Don't be psychic-prejudice. I've had a few 'experiences,' but choose to categorize them and explain them in a way that coincides with logic. I've had several "precognitive dreams," but that's just my mind piecing past events together to create an accurate portrayal of the future. I bet most dreams have some effort of precognition in them, but most of the time the results are not accurate, so we disregard them. Then, when we have the dream that finally does predict the future, we make a huge fuss over it. If psychic junk is your fancy, why not use lucid dreaming to try to make dreams more proficient at guessing the future? Or will you argue that this, too, can be done while awake?

I don't believe I said that, your so called 'psychic junk', was my fancy, only that I am subjected to it and, of course, it defies logic and cannot be quantified and hence the disbelief that those like yourself hold. You are reading into my postings what you desire to take from them rather than what was said so we can hardly be communicating even though we are using the same language.

You are correct at suggesting that our conscious mind is equally as powerful as the subconscious and it is only your disbelief, or fears, that reject this view. Your are crediting LD with some form of magic which it does not possess. LD may be interesting and possesses the possibility of self-improvement but the belief that somehow it is more viable than our own consciousness stems only from your prejudice and nothing more.

The imagination of the dream is from the same source as the imagination in waking life. This is why film, story, religion, politics, and advertising, are so effective in the public domain. Imagination (and our emotions) are the phenomena of the right brain. The argument you are using against me, especially about 'psychic junk', contradicts what you are saying about the power of LDs, or are you blind to this feature?

The 16/17c playwright Shakespeare observed exactly what I am saying when he wrote, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings" so the power of self-belief was known then and, of course, there are many examples in the bible and in Aesop's writings and in the tales of folklore which some regard as children's stories, and from other sources. You do yourself an injustice to believe otherwise. It is a freak of nurturing that we should project (hand over) our own power on to those with PhDs or to those who walk on water. Think about it.

my aim is to ob and never return

Quote from: Jennings on June 05, 2008, 01:48:01 PMI don't believe I said that, your so called 'psychic junk', was my fancy, only that I am subjected to it and, of course, it defies logic and cannot be quantified and hence the disbelief that those like yourself hold. You are reading into my postings what you desire to take from them rather than what was said so we can hardly be communicating even though we are using the same language.

You are correct at suggesting that our conscious mind is equally as powerful as the subconscious and it is only your disbelief, or fears, that reject this view. Your are crediting LD with some form of magic which it does not possess. LD may be interesting and possesses the possibility of self-improvement but the belief that somehow it is more viable than our own consciousness stems only from your prejudice and nothing more.

The imagination of the dream is from the same source as the imagination in waking life. This is why film, story, religion, politics, and advertising, are so effective in the public domain. Imagination (and our emotions) are the phenomena of the right brain. The argument you are using against me, especially about 'psychic junk', contradicts what you are saying about the power of LDs, or are you blind to this feature?

The 16/17c playwright Shakespeare observed exactly what I am saying when he wrote, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings" so the power of self-belief was known then and, of course, there are many examples in the bible and in Aesop's writings and in the tales of folklore which some regard as children's stories, and from other sources. You do yourself an injustice to believe otherwise. It is a freak of nurturing that we should project (hand over) our own power on to those with PhDs or to those who walk on water. Think about it.

"People like you." Now there's a fun term to fling. But please. Refrain from it, and stop generalizing. I keep saying I'm open to this stuff, and that is true. I am open to what others say. Please be aware that the purpose in discussion is to shift the ideas of both parties, and not to shove one belief onto the other, (or worse, to attempt to destroy the other's sense of opinion). In order to teach someone in a discussion, you must learn from them. And I want to make sure I understand you. Exactly what did I say about lucid dreaming that makes them sound so magical? Point it out, and I shall correct myself. But I digress.

You say I am correct about the waking mind having the same potential as the dreaming mind. Do you not agree with me then, when I say that most of us don't use our waking potential for awareness to its fullest? What I'm trying to say is that the waking mind and the dreaming mind should be equal, on the same level, and working together. An honest question:

Do you think that humans in our society are like this by default?

I am of the opinion that people spend too much time on abstracts (money, schedule, social situations) that they forget that they are. The imbalance is detrimental to the mind. In my opinion, the subconscious shouldn't be some mysterious other, but a part of the mind that always flows with consciousness. All too often, our (conditioned) consciousness will clash with the subconscious. And the subconscious isn't always "right" in the situation, either. The subconscious can hold lust, instinct, and anger just as well as compassion and morality. As can the conscious. If the two were more in-tune with each other, these clashes would be more easily resolved.

I am not trying to say lucid dreaming is a holy grail of any sort, nor that it is better than waking life. But I do think that it can aid one in curing this imbalance. Dreams are influenced heavily by the subconscious. Lucid dreaming allows the conscious mind to interject. You can influence your subconscious in waking life quite easily, but that's only part of the solution. In the dream, the conscious mind is the subdued voice, and the subconscious is creating the reality. There are other ways to go about this (meditation, or any serious thoughts about the nature of one's life).

What are your thoughts on this?

And Ah! Julius Caesar! I'm more of an Othello fan, myself.

Abra, I think my paranoia is getting the better of me. I am certain that you are nice and a well intentioned person; can we keep it this way and depart company?

Quote from: annsie on June 04, 2008, 11:14:50 PMMy awake life is not in harmony at all. We are going through a very difficult period with my husband extremely ill with multiple personality disorder and cluster headaches. He lost his job and has been in and out of hospital several times in the last two years. I have not been able to work much as I had to take time off to care for him for months in end.Have you tried working with your husband by using hypnosis annsie?  It's really easy to learn, and is the fastest and most powerful way I've ever found to help someone else, as you are dealing directly with their subconscious.

When I used to be into hypnosis several years ago I could take someone into a really deep state in about 2 minutes by having them stand in front of me with their eyes closed, while I tilted their head back and gave them suggestions that they were falling backwards while assuring them that I was there to catch them.  As soon as they would fall back, they would instantly be in a very deep state of hypnosis, which I would then deepen even more, and then work with them on whatever was troubling them.

You could probably find everything you would need to teach you how to do this yourself in a good book on hypnosis.

Yes, I have used hypnosis on my husband. He is a Grade V so he is VERY easy to hypnotise. I age regressed him to as young as 6 months old and learnt about his childhood troubles.

However, since he has multiple personalities, several of his alters would come out during or after the sessions causing a LOT of problems, so I have to be very careful when using this method.

When he is not able to cope with hypnotism, his guardian angels would come out and block it. Recently, he is too ill physically to be hypnotised safely. I am trying to teach him to meditate now.

Annsie, you surely are leading an amazing life even though it appears to be plagued with difficulties and yet your optimism never seems to falter. You sound almost like the modern day Joan of Arc minus the politics. Here's a little extract from the search engine:

Insistent voices: AD 1428-1429

A sixteen-year-old peasant girl, growing up and tending the cattle at Domrémy, has for some years been hearing voices. She sometimes sees the speakers, and recognizes them as St Michael, St Catherine and St Margaret. But in this winter of 1428-9 they have been giving her a very specific instruction. She must raise the siege of Orléans so that the king of France, Charles VII, can go to Reims to be anointed in the cathedral.

The girl is Jeanne Darc, known in English as Joan of Arc (or in OZ as Annsie). Her voices reflect a shrewd political perception which no one but she, it seems, has appreciated.

Nice to know you even though we may be like ships passing in the night.

Quote from: Jennings on June 06, 2008, 07:24:26 PMAnnsie, you surely are leading an amazing life even though it appears to be plagued with difficulties and yet your optimism never seems to falter. You sound almost like the modern day Joan of Arc minus the politics.

Nice to know you even though we may be like ships passing in the night.

Thank you so very much Jennings for such kind words !    I certainly dont feel like Joan of Arc at all although I do feel a pull and a push from somewhere higher to get me to do whatever it was in my life plan that I have not been doing properly.

I rarely feel that my life is "amazing". In fact, I often feel very lost and very lonely as it is close to impossible to try to explain what I am experiencing to anyone. I need to be very careful who I share this with in my profession as I could be deemed " crazy" which would affect my ability to practice medicine.

I wonder if my calling is to become an " all round " healer where I am supposed to combine both modern medicine and spiritual healing methods to be able to treat patients like my own husband. I wonder if God had given me my husband as a "practice" so that I can learn what I need to know. Mental illnesses have always been considered "uncurable" but maybe they are ?

It seems the experiences that had happened to me spontaneously without any effort on my part such as the seeing of spirits, the ability to converse with them, the ability to meditate at a very young age, the natural lucidity, the spontaneous Kundalini awakening ... happened for a reason. Normally people would go seek those and spent years studying and practising to achieve them. I seem to just get given them. What I need to do is to search for the reasons why I was given such gifts and what am I supposed to do with them ?

Or maybe I have gone completely delusional and need my head examined myself !

If you need your head examined Annsie then welcome to the crowd! I will give some thought to what you have said (over a cuppa) and hopefully return with some supporting comment.

Thank you so very much Jennings ! For years now I have searched for answers, for guidance, for friends who can travel along this path with me. As I said earlier, sometimes it is a real agonising sense of loneliness.

I will send a PM which may be more appropriate.

Quote from: Jennings on June 04, 2008, 06:58:19 PMIt would appear that some of you are able to induce LDs and/or attain OOBEs, subjects which fascinate but, once achieved, what then? Is it simply the question of another method of dreaming or moving through space or objects but to no purpose? If there is no personal goal why then the interest?

I cannot answer this question as I have not gained control over those features but to those who have, what gain has been made and to where has the path lead? I have had lucid dreams, some of which have been enjoyable while others not so but they have been random and there has been no personal advantage nor gain other than the pleasure or interest in different styles of dream. I had one short OOBE which I found liberating and exhilarating but without control I am unable to contribute further so what is the aim in this common pursuit of ours?

I've read this topic several times, but had trouble figuring out how to respond.  It seemed like one of those things that is very obvious, yet hard to put into words.

I figured out why.  It's as if you had asked for what purpose is living?  Same thing.  Why do we ever choose experience over non-experience?

Yes, indeed, Moonbeam, what purpose is life but this is not what I am seeking. There appears to be some on the forum who have mastered LDs and OOBEs and seem to move in and out of them with relative ease and it is nice to know that this is achievable but, once mastered, what then? I do not see any shouting 'eureka' nor do I read of any achievements that can be gained only through control over those features, which begs the question, why then concern one's self about LDs and OOBEs if there is no profit, advancement, or personal growth?

I am hardly interested in those who say I fly through solid objects or see different scenery populated by whoever or, that I had sex with some bird or guy, or whatever takes one's fancy when the same can be achieved through simple daydreaming. One can easily relax and direct one's imagination to any subject or topic of one's choosing and direct those imageries in whatever way one likes so where is the difference? What makes LDs or OOBEs more viable than the imagination which, presumably, both possess the same genesis?

Surely I am not asking a difficult question? I wish only to know from those who have traveled this road what wealth it has brought them that would induce or encourage those neophytes like myself to follow them along the same path?

Quote from: Jennings on June 07, 2008, 12:51:41 PMYes, indeed, Moonbeam, what purpose is life but this is not what I am seeking. There appears to be some on the forum who have mastered LDs and OOBEs and seem to move in and out of them with relative ease and it is nice to know that this is achievable but, once mastered, what then? I do not see any shouting 'eureka' nor do I read of any achievements that can be gained only through control over those features, which begs the question, why then concern one's self about LDs and OOBEs if there is no profit, advancement, or personal growth? I guess I have the same response as before; I dream for the same reason that I live--why not?  Maybe I'm somewhat simple-minded and don't look at everything I do as an opportunity for "personal growth" or profit.  I'm not being sarcastic; it's just the way I am.  I do it  mostly because it's fun.

I am involved in some experiments that if they were to be successful they actually would be life-changing, eureka moments.  I wouldn't even put those at the top of my list as to why I like dreaming, however; they are just another activity that I enjoy participating in, and if we discover something, so much the better.

QuoteI am hardly interested in those who say I fly through solid objects or see different scenery populated by whoever or, that I had sex with some bird or guy, or whatever takes one's fancy when the same can be achieved through simple daydreaming. One can easily relax and direct one's imagination to any subject or topic of one's choosing and direct those imageries in whatever way one likes so where is the difference? What makes LDs or OOBEs more viable than the imagination which, presumably, both possess the same genesis?

My day dreams and my lucid dreams are worlds apart, with no comparison between the quality of the experiences.  I don't believe they come from the same source.  I'm not saying dreams come from somewhere else than within my own mind, but they come from a place I don't have access to when I am awake.

Moonbeam, I wonder if you can see from what you have said that it serves to prove the formidable power of the imagination?

There are three levels to perception; one is, what is said to be happening; the other is, what is seen to be happening; and the other is, what is actually happening. I can read what you are saying about what is said to be happening and I can see what is seen (or believed) to be happening but, what is actually happening, and this is what I want someone to tell me.

It is not my intention to be pejorative but anyone who cannot perceive of those three levels has to be living a Walter Mitty existence.

Oh I forgot another advantage of dreaming; you do it while you are sleeping, so you don't waste time while while you're awake.

Quote from: Jennings on June 07, 2008, 01:33:39 PMMoonbeam, I wonder if you can see from what you have said that it serves to prove the formidable power of the imagination? No, what do you mean?  My powers of imagination are not equal to my powers while dreaming.  It's a whole nother thing entirely.

QuoteThere are three levels to perception; one is, what is said to be happening; the other is, what is seen to be happening; and the other is, what is actually happening. I can read what you are saying about what is said to be happening and I can see what is seen (or believed) to be happening but, what is actually happening, and this is what I want someone to tell me.

Oh...OK, I probably can't explain it to you then.  I am coming from purely experiential, point of view, subjective experience.  I cannot explain anything beyond that.  I wish someone would explain it to me too, in that case.

QuoteIt is not my intention to be pejorative but anyone who cannot perceive of those three levels has to be living a Walter Mitty existence.

And you're point is?

The point is simple; we are not communicating.

Ok, fine. I tried.  I'll give up now.

If I have upset you then my apologies.

Oh no, not at all.  I'm sorry I didn't have what you were looking for, and probably didn't even understand the question.

Quote from: Jennings on June 07, 2008, 01:33:39 PMMoonbeam, I wonder if you can see from what you have said that it serves to prove the formidable power of the imagination?

There are three levels to perception; one is, what is said to be happening; the other is, what is seen to be happening; and the other is, what is actually happening. I can read what you are saying about what is said to be happening and I can see what is seen (or believed) to be happening but, what is actually happening, and this is what I want someone to tell me.

It is not my intention to be pejorative but anyone who cannot perceive of those three levels has to be living a Walter Mitty existence.

Jennings,

you asked these same or similar questions several other places on this forum, if I remember correctly and were answered.  The answers that you received were not to your liking or were not believed, it would seem.  I don't mean to be provocative either but I am a little bewildered.  The only thing that I can come up with is that you are reasonably doubtful of what others are saying about LD and OB experiences since you have not had but one experience some time ago.  If one does not have much experience doing this, it is quite unbelievable given our cultural upbringing.

You make statements like the above about levels of perception as if it is an absolute truth when it is,at best,  a belief. Then you ask questions that seem to want an answer as if I believe this also.  That makes answering the question rather difficult when I don't ascribe to your perspective.

I do want to say that I always enjoy reading your posts and questions.  They always make me think a bit.

What might be termed, Dallyup, a back-handed compliment. I have had many LDs and, yes, one short OOBE which, of course, inspires my interest but I am not in the business of being mislead; if there is some gain then where is it? No one has answered this query; surely there has to be some profit beyond the norm?

You Americans have a great saying which says this. "When you are up to your ass fighting crocodiles you forget that your first task was to drain the swamp"! Can we address this first task?

whatever,i could see myself dying ,sitting in meditation and be able to ob and leave the body behind for good..as an alternative to be forced by adverse cicumstances.   hope i have enough time left for training

Maybe you're hoping for a benifit that doesn't exist? I'm sure many of us here try to learn this as a hobby, for the enjoyment. Past that I don't think there is much of a perpouse to it.

Edit: By that I mean a practical one, it can, as dallyup says, give you "a greater sense of who you are".

Quote from: Jennings on June 07, 2008, 02:37:31 PM I have had many LDs and, yes, one short OOBE which, of course, inspires my interest but I am not in the business of being mislead; if there is some gain then where is it? No one has answered this query; surely there has to be some profit beyond the norm?

What is it that you would consider a "gain"?  When I was younger I wanted girl friends and lots of sex.  This ability provided me with lots of that (in this reality).  Later when I wanted position and money, I got lots of that (over $1 million and positions that my ego wanted in this waking reality.)  As I realized the worth of these things and let go of them I wanted a sense of the cosmic.  I got that, too.  I wanted to heal people and animals, I did that too.  I wanted to help others so I became chairman of the board for a company that provides work for the disabled.  My point is that what I consider gains one day I no longer consider gains. Some of what I got following my ego was a big pain in the butt. Other things were great.  All that I have mentioned came out of this silly dreaming up this silly life.

More recently I have gotten a finer sense of working with the energetic forces around me.  To what end?  I have a greater sense of who I am in the scope of this great journey.  I understand creation to a deeper extent and what relationship is to me. I embrace death as part of my purpose here on earth and do not fear it as I was taught.  I have a sense of what perspective is and what truth isn't. These last few things are worth, to me, more than anything else that I had gained as a youth but those things of my youth  were needed for me to get here.  Next year or tomorrow it may all change as I change perspective and maybe we are all just perfect the way we are and don't need to "gain" anything.

What do you want to gain?

I do love all your comments above and I accept them and, indirectly and unwittingly, you may have answered my question.

Dallyup, you seem to be saying that it is not because of LDs but in spite of them that you achieved your desires and ambitions which, interestingly, is the point to which I have been alluding.

Budster, it is not that I am searching for something that does not exist yet I will admit that LaBerge's and Rheingold's books lead me to believe that there were benefits beyond that of the norm and I was hoping someone would be able to indicate this. What then am I expecting; just some one to confirm for me that there is this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow failing which, what would be the point of pursuing a false dawn?

With one exception, I have been through all the processes so far mentioned some which started early infancy but intellectually my interest started around the age of 17 which was 60 years ago. I am reading today what was being done more than half-a-century ago so progress since has been negligible. I see some posters making claim to methods which they say are original but have, in fact, been plagiarised.

The one exception mentioned was the short OOBE that I experienced and why is it the exception? Because it occurred while awake and when I was walking and not in a dream. Obviously this experience cannot be unique but it does add this extra and intriguing dimension to the phenomenon which I would like to recapture today and hence the interest but, I have not discovered any self-improvement method the goals of which can equally be brought to fruition through the simple expression of self-belief. Somehow we are driven to believe that we possess this underlying magic or some power outside of, or beyond ourselves.

I would suggest that many of the experiences related by posters (although not all) when LD or when travelling in OBEEs are self created. The analogy I would use to describe many of the experiences would be to compare the subconscious to a cinematographic or film projector as the fundamental operation would be the same while the pictures projected would be the creations of the individual authors and based on their own or perceived desires or fears.

As a psychic I am aware of happenings that are the exceptions to the above view but let us not delude ourselves to what is actually occurring in our dream world, the world of our highly creative imagination. We are but what our dreams are made of; we are nothing more.

QuoteDallyup, you seem to be saying that it is not because of LDs but in spite of them that you achieved your desires and ambitions which, interestingly, is the point to which I have been alluding That is so interesting that you took this from what I said.  My truth is exactly the opposite of your interpretation. I guess it is not so surprising.  We all take the world around us to rationalize our point of view.

Which is my point.  It is all about perspective.  There is no absolute truth. From your perspective I have been successful in some ventures despite my LD'g.  From my perspective it is solely out of them that I have achieved these "things".  Both must be absolutely true.  Just depends on where you stand.

I thought you had gone to bed, Dallyup. Why do you do keep popping-up like a Jack-in-the-Box; did I say something that hurt you?  Your ego does stand proud like a 'shining light' which unquestionably drove you to where you are today with a track-record that makes you personally proud, so well done! I wonder why this particualr drive is so inconsequential to some?

Quote from: Jennings on June 04, 2008, 06:58:19 PMIt would appear that some of you are able to induce LDs and/or attain OOBEs, subjects which fascinate but, once achieved, what then? ? What then is up to each person to decide for themselves.

For some people, it is the ability to have unlimited sex with a variety of different partners every night that fascinates them. For others it is ability to fly, and experience things in the other dimension that they would never be able to do in this physical realm. For others like myself, it is the ability to explore that other dimension and communicate with passed loved ones and animals who now reside in that dimension that fascinates them.

Whether it is real, or whether it is imagined makes no difference to me, because it is the most exciting thing I have ever experienced.

The first time I had a conscious out of body experience, where I spent over an hour taking in some beautiful sites from halfway around the world, was all that was needed to make a believer out of me, as I felt as if I had been on a 2 week long vacation after returning from that trip.  Even if that was imagined, it was still one of the best vacations I have ever had.

And then there was the time that I met an adversary on a very high cliff that I had flown up to, who after I demolished by by expanding my white light out from myself, I heard a round of applause from the sky.

I then dove headfirst off of the very high cliff I was on, and began floating slowly toward the ground, after which I quickly picked up speed and headed at an amazing scary rate toward the ground.  I never hit the ground though, because right before hitting the ground I stopped, and then shot right back up to the top of the canyon again.  I had so much fun with this movement that I repeated it several more times.

Even if these things were all in my mind, which I really felt they weren't, they were still refreshing experiences, and ones which I would repeat again anytime I could.

What then?  Whatever a person can imagine is what then, as a person's imagination is the only thing that can limit them in this other dimension, since things in this realm are controlled by their imagination.

Quote from: iadr on June 07, 2008, 07:48:38 PMQuote from: Jennings on June 04, 2008, 06:58:19 PMIt would appear that some of you are able to induce LDs and/or attain OOBEs, subjects which fascinate but, once achieved, what then? ? What then is up to each person to decide for themselves.

I agree, although we have the same "physical" experience with LD and OBE, the emotional reaction/effect is very individual and unique. Its that emotion which propels us to whatever goal we want to achieve with LD and OBE. Since these emotional responses are different and unique, we will not be able to agree on what they mean to each of us.

Its like eating fresh raw oyster for the first time. Some people love it and set out in search for more oysters. Others go one step further and search for other types to try. Those who thought " interesting but not worth getting excited about " wont be actively searching for more but wont mind it if its served at the next meal. Those downright felt sick of the taste will make sure they never put another one in their mouth ever again.

Same oyster, in theory same taste, but widely different emotional reactions which lead to different responses and actions.

Can we say what is the right reaction ? No, there is no right and wrong here. Can the ones who love the oyster convince the ones who hate it to join in their search for more ? I dont think so either.

The secret lies in how we perceive the experience to be and the meaning to us, individually, and all of us will be RIGHT ! How neat is that ?

May I say, I rest my case! Maybe I will have some interesting dreams tonight; I will let them be known tomorrow,