I just got over an extended period of bad recall, but that time wasn't a total waste.  While struggling with recall, I developed a better understanding of how it works.

To summarize archetypes quickly, take anything or any theme, and we'll call this the "root" or parent. Alone it's not an archetype.  But then draw lines connecting everything you associate with that thing or theme, and we'll call these "properties" of the root.  Picture it like the sun, the root being the ball of gas and the properties the beams of light emanating from the root.

Any of these properties of the root can become archetypes of their own once you focus your attention on them, but until you do so, they are just dead roots that don't lead anywhere but back to their source.

As dreams progress, we start with one active archetype.  Focusing on it causes random associated properties to manifest in the dream.  Eventually our attention moves from the root onto onto of it's properties, activating it, causing that property to become an active archetype it's self.  Random properties of the new root manifest, our attention wanders to the new property which becomes an active archetype, and this process keeps repeating it's self over and over.  This creates a chain or path from one archetype to the other.

The key to recall is to be able to retrace that chain.  Sounds simple enough, but...

There is only one path.  From active archetype to active archetype.  What hinders recall are all the properties of the root archetypes.  These properties, not having been activated by focusing attention on them, lead nowhere but back to the root.  They are in effect dead ends.

So to follow the chain or path your dreams took in order to remember them, you have to focus on the active archetype and not their properties.  The properties lead nowhere, and it's only the archetypes in play that lead to the next archetype.

So if remember a fragment that you can't expand on, that's because it's a property, a wrong turn down one of the many roads available through the root archetype.  So the key to recall is being able to differentiate between the root or parent and it's properties.  Also being able to identify those root archetypes.

If you find yourself stuck on a "property", try tracing it back to it's source or root and try another path.

Does that make sense?  I've been putting of trying to explain this for weeks now.  Just the thought of trying to explain it turns my brain to mush.  Hopefully your brains aren't leaking out your ears from reading this.

How hard is it to communicate something like this, Cusp?!

I have to say I'm finding it hard but interesting to follow.  I mean, I follow you intellectually, I just can't seem to identify archetype or property in my own dream fragments (of which I have many).  I agree with what you say about association, though.  Images can easily jump from one scene to another however we can identify the associative reason why this happens.

e.g. I dreamed yesterday of some fighters in the desert being executed.  The archetype could be the fighter, the theme of death or of combat, the desert or perhaps something else.  All are themes of the dream and all these things often appear in my dreams.  How would I find the association from this dream scene to another archetype?

I agree they are hard to identify, but it helps if you can recognize the RL influence.  But probably the best way to recognize a property of an archetype is when you hit a dead end in your recall.

For instance last night I dreamed of a giant snake at my parent's house.  My parents or father would have been the active archetype, and my father's fear of snakes a major association.  So that's where the snake came from, along with my parent's house.  Now a giant snake in your room is the kind of thing that grabs your attention, shifting my focus away from the parental archetype and activating the serpent/pet archetype.  After that it was all associations with the serpent/pet, such as care, feeding, veterinarian.  Then I shifted my focus to the veterinarian, a professional authority figure, and got the association of animal cruelty.

In that execution fragment you described, all those elements sound like properties.  You're missing the root cause of them all.  But damned if I can offer advice on how to find it.

It's also possible you can have several active archetypes at once, influencing each other, which confuses things even further.  Generally speaking, look for the things that really captivate your attentinon, and from there it's obvious the influence it has on your dreams.

Yes, I'm following you more now.  And it does sound very much like RL mind wanderings too, which I think are fed by the same process that feeds dreams.

That death fragment has passed from my attention now but I'll try what you say with the next fragment I'm struggling with.

On a related note, archetypes such as you're talking about also will affect us in RL.  They affect our decisions and how we relate to people although being unconscious we're not really aware of it.  Hence dream analysis like this can help us in RL too.

I kinda-sorta follow you here, and I think that this is actually how I follow things (well, different method, of course, but close) when I'm trying to remember dreams, but maybe you could give us an example with a full dream?  Like, what each item is and why?  Here's one I constructed for a guide I was writing for the site, if you need one. Spoiler for   Chaos Butterfly.  Thurs, 7 May, 2009. Clarity 4/5 Lucidity 0/5 Interesting 4/5

I started off in an old attic from my childhood home, a dusty old place that we used to go to whenever it was raining outside and we couldn't go play.  The only difference was there was a large wooden chest in the middle, and I remember hearing in the dream that it had been passed down from generation to generation of my family.  My grandmother said that no one had opened it since my great aunt June, because it was believed that a spirit had cursed it when her husband had pissed it off.

It was kind of a strange concept, for I knew that spirits didn't really exist, so I opened it anyways.  When I looked inside, I saw four cacoons inside of the otherwise empty chest.  Looking at them brought in me a fear that I had never known before, and to my increased horror, they were hatching.  Out of the four old looking cacoons came four butterflies that had black wings with different symbols on them in neon blue.

In terror, I turned and fled out into the hallway, trying to get away from them, but they just followed after me.  I ran as fast as I could down the hall, but the pack of butterflies just kept gaining on me.  The last thing I remember is feeling four sets of tiny legs landing on the back of my neck, then I woke up in bed screaming.

Comments: I believe that I had this dream as a result of the realization that I can no longer hide from my family's history.  After my Great Aunt died, her husband tried to destroy every memory of her, and since him my whole family has gone on pretending that she never existed.  I believe the spirit that was spoken of in that dream was good at heart, and wanted to ensure that our heritage was never forgotten, and the butterflies were symbols representing the people and beliefs in our family that the following generations have spent so much time trying to destroy.  At first, this dream scared me to death, but now I feel empowered by it, and I'll do all that I can to ensure that it's message is taken in my heart and the hearts of the generations to come.

I understand what you are saying.

I get caught in loops too, both in dreams and IRL, where two random things occur together and become associated with each other, and later they keep appearing together.  Like a random thought in a particular location, then the next time you are there you have that thought again.

I wish that would work better to get me lucid somehow.

I guess you are saying this idea will get you down to the ultimate idea behind the dream, if there is one.  Then what?

I did a Speed Reading course a while back, where the guy taught us some memory perfecting techniques. He taught us how memory works by associating things with other things.. like associating a list of numbers with a list of objects by making a story about them with your imagination, recall was really good once a person memorized it in this way.

I only know a little about Jungian archetypes.. I notice my dream recall still works really well if i write the dream down in point form, noting main events, objects and occurances. I find the speed of this method helps in remembering long dreams, because the mind can jump around quickly in a non-linear way while writing. Then i will jump on the computer and write the full story out with as many details as possible.

Is this sort of along the lines of what you're talking about?

O.o it makes a lot of sense, now I get what you've been saying on archetypes the whole time, I thought you meant Jung-stuff where this represents that, like shadow elements etc., rather than a pathway to focus recall on.

Quote from: Lucidbulbs on July 23, 2009, 09:45:10 AMO.o it makes a lot of sense, now I get what you've been saying on archetypes the whole time, I thought you meant Jung-stuff where this represents that, like shadow elements etc., rather than a pathway to focus recall on.

That's what I first thought.  But I guess an archetype could be any basic form that manifests as different versions of itself.

Quote from: Burned up on July 22, 2009, 02:06:53 PMOn a related note, archetypes such as you're talking about also will affect us in RL. Iver since I developed my understanding of how dreams work, it was obvious that that it applied to RL in the same manner.  Which is why I say reality is a dream, and all the methods I've learned to control dreams apply to real life as well.

Quote from: wolvendeer on July 22, 2009, 02:53:41 PM maybe you could give us an example with a full dream? It's really hard for me to do with someone else's dream.  I don't know how your mind works of what kind of associations you have.  When I say archetype, I don't mean general ones that apply to every one, but highly personalized ones that only apply to the individual.

I can give examples of my dreams if you want.

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 22, 2009, 07:16:40 PMI guess you are saying this idea will get you down to the ultimate idea behind the dream, if there is one.  Then what? THen control becomes a piece of cake!

Quote from: miss_maya on July 23, 2009, 02:42:58 AMI only know a little about Jungian archetypes.. I notice my dream recall still works really well if i write the dream down in point form, noting main events, objects and occurances. I find the speed of this method helps in remembering long dreams, because the mind can jump around quickly in a non-linear way while writing. Then i will jump on the computer and write the full story out with as many details as possible.

Is this sort of along the lines of what you're talking about? That's exactly how I do recall as well.  If I don't write those bullet points and the dream is long, then I can't find my way back to the start of the dream from where I end up after a long recall session.

Quote from: Lucidbulbs on July 23, 2009, 09:45:10 AMO.o it makes a lot of sense, now I get what you've been saying on archetypes the whole time, I thought you meant Jung-stuff where this represents that, like shadow elements etc., rather than a pathway to focus recall on. I've never really studied Jungian archetypes in depth, so I'm not really sure if my understanding of them differs from the Jung model. I also refer to them as "Schemata".  Archetypes are actually a subset of schemata.

But to me they aren't some etherial concept, they are very real things I can almost reach out and touch.

Quote from: The Cusp on July 25, 2009, 08:26:54 AMQuote from: Burned up on July 22, 2009, 02:06:53 PMOn a related note, archetypes such as you're talking about also will affect us in RL. Iver since I developed my understanding of how dreams work, it was obvious that that it applied to RL in the same manner.  Which is why I say reality is a dream, and all the methods I've learned to control dreams apply to real life as well.

That's pretty much my path too.  (slight digression) I was reading earlier how time is a fantasy.  What?  Was my first response.  But the passage went on to say how we can't access history, just memories of it.  Those particular memories (validated because others have similar ones) we call reality.  But as far as what goes on in our mind, they surely exist in the same place as do fantasies.  Dreams, as far as I believe, contain material from fantasy some of which is also reality.  If you see what I mean.

QuoteThat's exactly how I do recall as well.  If I don't write those bullet points and the dream is long, then I can't find my way back to the start of the dream from where I end up after a long recall session.

Me too.  Bullet points in my notebook tend to get recorded as bullet points in my DJ as I've forgotten the connections between them by the time I get to the PC.  Indeed mostly I have no memory of writing the bullets either.  Descriptive stuff stays in my mind better.

QuoteI've never really studied Jungian archetypes in depth, so I'm not really sure if my understanding of them differs from the Jung model. I also refer to them as "Schemata".  Archetypes are actually a subset of schemata.

But to me they aren't some etherial concept, they are very real things I can almost reach out and touch.

Interesting, as I take archetypes as coming from a psychoanalytic tradition (Jung) and schemata from a cognitive tradition (Beck).  But I would agree that both constructs are ways of understanding how we use the past to for our sense of reality.  And it's all down to semantics after that anyway.

They are real (I think) because we believe them to be real.  If we don't have ways of processing information then we're just a rambling jabbering heap and totally psychotic I suspect.  Archetypes can be very real once you start recognising them.  For me, that's the power of the Jungian approach.  As we bring archetypes to consciousness, they lose their power.  We recognise the powerful father figure, the adoring mother figure, the disgusting shadow figure etc and we stop casting others and ourselves in those roles.

Coming back to dreams, your opening post still has me thinking about how to use archetypes in recall.  It's kind of turning things on their head for me.  I would normally try to find archetypes in the dream, rather than dreams (properties, in your words) from the archetypes.

This has to be my favourite non-DJ thread this year!

Quote from: Burned up on July 26, 2009, 09:05:54 AMThat's pretty much my path too.  (slight digression) I was reading earlier how time is a fantasy.  What?  Was my first response.  But the passage went on to say how we can't access history, just memories of it.  Those particular memories (validated because others have similar ones) we call reality.  But as far as what goes on in our mind, they surely exist in the same place as do fantasies.  Dreams, as far as I believe, contain material from fantasy some of which is also reality.  If you see what I mean. But our memories of the past are inaccurate because the archetype that form them are always changing.  Everytime you use one you change it.  Like Moonbeam said here...

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 22, 2009, 07:16:40 PMI get caught in loops too, both in dreams and IRL, where two random things occur together and become associated with each other, and later they keep appearing together.  Like a random thought in a particular location, then the next time you are there you have that thought again.

Quote from: Burned up on July 26, 2009, 09:05:54 AMThey are real (I think) because we believe them to be real.  If we don't have ways of processing information then we're just a rambling jabbering heap and totally psychotic I suspect.  Archetypes can be very real once you start recognising them.  For me, that's the power of the Jungian approach.  As we bring archetypes to consciousness, they lose their power.  We recognise the powerful father figure, the adoring mother figure, the disgusting shadow figure etc and we stop casting others and ourselves in those roles. I don't think archetypes ever lose their power.  They are unavoidable, and limit what we can experience.  The best we can hope for is to switch the active ones to more productive archetypes.  Not be limited or locked into any one archetype, have the freedom to travel them as needed like in dreams.

There is a story that when the indians first saw the pilgrim's ocean faring ships approaching, they didn't see them as boats because they had no conception of what boats were, and instead saw something that related to their personal experiences instead.  Maybe a floating wigwam or something.

Consider this picture, oversimplified though it is...

If you were to start with any one archetype, and draw every single connection you make to to it, real or imagined, there would be thousands of connections.  Then if you were to continue this process of each of those connections, for every single thing you knew, you would end up with a densely interconnected map.

That map is you.   It's the real landscape your dreams take place in, not what you see.  You cannot experience anything outside of that map, either in RL or in Dreams.  It in effect limits what you can experience.  You could in theory experience things outside of that map, but you wouldn't be able to see it for what it truly is, and would instead use the next closest thing available. (I don't even know if it's possible to see things for what they truly are). WHen you try to describe something alien to you, you do so by comparing it to things your are already familiar with.

Listening to Coast to Coast AM, I always hear stories of groups of people who encounter unexplainable phenomena where each individual describes something completely different, even though they were all together and saw the same thing (in a manner of speaking) at the same time.

Quote from: Burned up on July 26, 2009, 09:05:54 AM This has to be my favourite non-DJ thread this year! I think I agree, I mean, I'm mainly lurking here, but I feel like I've learned so much... and maybe gotten confused too on some points >.>

Quote from: The Cusp on July 26, 2009, 10:15:34 AMBut our memories of the past are inaccurate because the archetype that form them are always changing.  Everytime you use one you change it.  Like Moonbeam said here...

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 22, 2009, 07:16:40 PMI get caught in loops too, both in dreams and IRL, where two random things occur together and become associated with each other, and later they keep appearing together.  Like a random thought in a particular location, then the next time you are there you have that thought again. So you agree that archetypes can be both utilized for IRL and dream recall? I understand how the perception changes as we (our archetypes?) change... But does that mean these same schemata we use for dream recall (if we use it like you have described) could be used for IRL too?

Quote from: The Cusp on July 26, 2009, 10:15:34 AMThat map is you.   It's the real landscape your dreams take place in, not what you see.  You cannot experience anything outside of that map, either in RL or in Dreams.  It in effect limits what you can experience.  You could in theory experience things outside of that map, but you wouldn't be able to see it for what it truly is, and would instead use the next closest thing available. (I don't even know if it's possible to see things for what they truly are). WHen you try to describe something alien to you, you do so by comparing it to things your are already familiar with. That is very insightful.  We have to figure out how to add things to it, things from dreams and not just RL.

Quote from: The Cusp on July 26, 2009, 10:15:34 AMBut our memories of the past are inaccurate because the archetype that form them are always changing.  Everytime you use one you change it.

Indeed our memories are inaccurate (whatever we might mean by accurate).  They are the result of our processing sensual (accurate?) information into fragments of meaning, something which is poorly understood as far as I can tell.

QuoteI don't think archetypes ever lose their power.  They are unavoidable, and limit what we can experience.  The best we can hope for is to switch the active ones to more productive archetypes.  Not be limited or locked into any one archetype, have the freedom to travel them as needed like in dreams.

Well that's moving more to what I would call schemata.  I knew semantics would confuse us.  Yes, we only have so many ways we know of processing information so if one isn't working for us we move to another (or remain stuck).  Perhaps we can learn a new way too.  Cognitive therapy is based on this principle.

QuoteThere is a story that when the indians first saw the pilgrim's ocean faring ships approaching, they didn't see them as boats because they had no conception of what boats were, and instead saw something that related to their personal experiences instead.  Maybe a floating wigwam or something.

Makes sense.

QuoteIf you were to start with any one archetype, and draw every single connection you make to to it, real or imagined, there would be thousands of connections.  Then if you were to continue this process of each of those connections, for every single thing you knew, you would end up with a densely interconnected map.

That map is you.   It's the real landscape your dreams take place in, not what you see.  You cannot experience anything outside of that map, either in RL or in Dreams.  It in effect limits what you can experience.  You could in theory experience things outside of that map, but you wouldn't be able to see it for what it truly is, and would instead use the next closest thing available. (I don't even know if it's possible to see things for what they truly are). WHen you try to describe something alien to you, you do so by comparing it to things your are already familiar with.

This is very similar to personal constructivist theory (Kelly), except Kelly arranges his connections in a hierarchy rather than a network.  So you'd have a construct that would allow us to differentiate MM from DV, say, as well as knowing what these have in common (dream forums, say) and then a construct that would differentiate dream forums from something else and so on until you get to the top of the hierarchy and these are called your core constructs - the fundamental definition of your self - and analgous to schemata.

Kelly would argue that as humans we have the faculties to create new constructs and re-arrange existing ones.  So we can, and constantly do, change.  Same as your network, really.  That is growing all the time.

QuoteListening to Coast to Coast AM, I always hear stories of groups of people who encounter unexplainable phenomena where each individual describes something completely different, even though they were all together and saw the same thing (in a manner of speaking) at the same time.

Yes because each person processes - makes meaning - differently.  Using Kelly's model, each person will locate their experience on a part of their hierarchy of constructs.

When I watch a story about starving kids in Africa I get very angry about how useless the world is.  My wife, who is more of a positive sort of person, will see how much good is being done by people to try and help them.  Same experience, different meanings.  (Different core constructs, schemata, archetypes, zodiac signs, whatever)

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 26, 2009, 01:10:33 PMThat is very insightful.  We have to figure out how to add things to it, things from dreams and not just RL.

Yes, and I try and do that in my DJ I suppose.  Actually mine is more about mapping out that diagram in the first place.  Dreams help us see ourselves in ways our RL ego would never allow!

Quote from: Lucidbulbs on July 26, 2009, 11:13:47 AM So you agree that archetypes can be both utilized for IRL and dream recall? I understand how the perception changes as we (our archetypes?) change... But does that mean these same schemata we use for dream recall (if we use it like you have described) could be used for IRL too? They are always used, both in RL and in dreams.  The only question is wether you're going to let them control you, of wether you're going to be in control of them.  They filter your perception of reality.

An obvious example that comes to mind is my recent dealings with the rabid "skeptics" on DV who were out to crucify me.  They associate anything paranormal with bullshit and lies, and as a result are physically unable to see anything but that.  Just because they have an archetype for "scientific method" doesn't make it absolute.  Archetype or schemata vary greatly from person to person, and they think just because theirs has the same name, the same rules apply.

Quote from: Burned up on July 26, 2009, 02:29:07 PMWhen I watch a story about starving kids in Africa I get very angry about how useless the world is.  My wife, who is more of a positive sort of person, will see how much good is being done by people to try and help them.  Same experience, different meanings.  (Different core constructs, schemata, archetypes, zodiac signs, whatever) In that regard, there are no absolutes, reality is as malleable as a dream.  I have a very hard time dealing with people who can't recognize that.

I think that's what Castaneda means when he talks about "seeing".  The ability to perceive directly without first filtering it through archetypes or schemata.

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 22, 2009, 07:16:40 PMI get caught in loops too, both in dreams and IRL Those are what I call "Hell Realms".  Going back to that large map that is the totality of one's self, you're going to have little pockets of densely interconnected archetypes that connect to each other, but have very few connections leading anywhere else.  So if you wander into one of these areas, it's very hard to find your way out again because they just keep linking back to each other.  You end up going in circles.

(My image host sucks, there should be an image here: http://cache.imagefap.com/images/full/39/811/81123445.png)

Quote from: Moonbeam on July 26, 2009, 01:10:33 PMThat is very insightful.  We have to figure out how to add things to it, things from dreams and not just RL. I think any healthy person is alway adding new things and expanding that map.  That's probably what dreams do.  Failure to do so could be considered insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  But that's just speculation on my part.

Quote from: The Cusp on July 26, 2009, 10:21:58 PMIn that regard, there are no absolutes, reality is as malleable as a dream.  I have a very hard time dealing with people who can't recognize that.

Yes, we're not dumb machines set up to record sense data.  At least, that's not how we experience "reality".

QuoteI think that's what Castaneda means when he talks about "seeing".  The ability to perceive directly without first filtering it through archetypes or schemata.

Sounds very Zen.  Kind of "There's no such thing as rich or poor. These are just comparisons.  Only when we free ourselves from comparisons can we see who we really are."  Or something like that.

QuoteI think any healthy person is alway adding new things and expanding that map.  That's probably what dreams do.  Failure to do so could be considered insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  But that's just speculation on my part.

All experience does that, to some degree.  We are meaning-making creatures.  Oh, and doing the same thing over and over again is what Kelly would call "tight construing" and is a feature of neurotic and obsessive people.  They will only get different results by "loosening", i.e. varying choice of actions given the same situations.  At the other extreme, people who refuse to get stuck in a rut can become what society might call paranoid and unable to make any kind of satisfactory decision.  Somewhere between the two is pragmatism.  At least, that's how cognitive theorists use terms borrowed from mental health.

So far the image I've painted of dreams is a chain of archetypes, one leading to the next.  But I think a more accurate description would be those russian dolls, one nested in the other.  Think of each doll as a new scene.

The dead ends occur when you try to take a step back to the bigger doll that contains the one you are in.  It's much easier to go deeper into the smaller nested dolls than it is to go backwards and see the larger ones.

I really can't think of any way you can use that to boost recall, but it's good to know how it works.

Here's something I wrote on DV about dream "containers", like those russian dolls.

Quote from: The CuspContainers

I've stumbled upon another little dream control gem. Haven't used it enough to master it as of yet, but I think I've got a grasp on the general concept.

Nothing in dreams is independent, everything is connected to something else in some fashion. People usually don't just dream of vampires, first they dream of a spooky old mansion or castle, which then leads to the vampires (RL influences aside). The beach sand you walk on in a dream of the ocean is not independent, it's fundamentally linked to the ocean. Or both the ocean and beach can be viewed as individual elements of an nautical theme.

When trying to exert control over a dream, sometimes it's best not to treat what you are trying to control as an individual element, but to think of it as part of something else.

Say you have a glass of water, and you want to move the water to the other side of the room. Trying to pick up and move just the water is going to be almost impossible. It's much simpler just to pick up the glass that contains the water and carry that across the room.

The same holds true for dreams. I'm at a loss to come up with specific dream examples, as the dreams I had on the subject were very confusing, but that's how it works. It's basically just a little shift in the way you conceptualize things, but it opens up a lot of finesse for dream control.

Perhaps you'd dream you're in a classic hell scenario. Instead of battling each of the countless demons individually, you could just freeze hell over, taking care of all of them at once. Just like carrying the glass of water.