Two questions both of which seem to challenge our perception that dreams occur in a linear time frame just as we would expect IRL. So why is it that our alarm (or child or dog) wakes us just as we finally get together with our dream partner for example? The following is an embyonic discussion about that moment of excitement before being woken, which started in my DJ and with my replies.
Quote from: mu on May 05, 2009, 01:50:38 AMQuote from: Moonbeam on May 04, 2009, 07:08:59 AMBut it seems like a lot of times the dream was all leading up to that. That must be one of the strangest things about dreams! The plot leading up to the moment when you are startled awake... How is that even possible?
It's very puzzling. But as we all (in this thread) seem to recognise this, it is likely to be something common to all dreamers.
QuoteOne explanation that doesn't involve precognition... Given that we can have very long dreams in a very short time, maybe it's also true that dreams can occur out of order, even backwards? I think you were saying something like that, Burned up.
I have long suspected that dreams which seem to be long actually happen in our minds very quickly. Only when we remember them do they seem to be long. It's as if the timescale itself is part of the dream. If dreams can be fiction in terms of image, fact and circumstance then why not timescale?
QuoteSo the event occurs, we have a very compressed, non-linear dream, and the structure is imposed on it immediately after, while waking..
Yes, that's what I am saying. Only you said it better! Only one possibility, however!
Interesting thread. I have three comments, two of which are probably obvious:
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Yes, Laberge showed that in very controlled lucid dream experiements monitoring EEG's and pre-determined sequences of eye movements, that perception of time in a lucid dream and real time flow about the same. Of course that is a lucid dream and NOT a non-lucid one. Don't necessarily assume that this relation holds true for a non-lucid dreams. I suspect it does - but we don't know. It's quite possible that dream time gets compressed when we have a strong external stimuli which is in the process of waking us.
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The perceived long durations of certain dreams probably has more to do with the jumpy nature of the scene changes. This is a well known trick TV and movie writers use to give a perception that much time has passed, they change from day to night for example, and we feel like 12 hours has passed when it's really been seconds.
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Also, do not count out precognition of the waking event. There is no telling how precognition might affect dream events or the likelihood of waking. For example, I also experience what you are referring to as dream compression. But I also have an uncanny ability to wake 1-2 minutes before my alarm goes off, even if it's an unusually early setting (e.g. 3:00 am WBTB). The only other explaination I can think of for this latter event is that I was in the process of one or more superficial awakenings and noticed the time - but my conscious recollection of alarm setting made me break out of trivial/short awakening mode and into a full blown awakening and recovery of awareness. I lean toward precognition as the answer. I think the mind has a way of realizing weird paradoxical loops that we don't understand - after all this is a major chicken or the egg problem - if you ponder it for a moment.
Quote from: muSo the event occurs, we have a very compressed, non-linear dream, and the structure is imposed on it immediately after, while waking.. Yes that does say it well, that's what I was thinking too.
Except for lucid dreams, the only "conscious" experience we have of them is during recall. Then they are always subject to interpretation by the conscious mind.
It seems like a lot of my non-lucid dreams are more like a series vignettes that are strung together rather than a continuous flow. I know dream-time is supposed to be the same as real time, but maybe only when you're paying attention. So what you were saying, Dr. T, about the scene changes causing the illusion of time, and maybe the scenes can change very quickly sometimes. Then we add some "dream-memory", some interpretation--there you go.
It is very strange, in any case. Lol, we could do an experiment--have people wake us up in weird ways (symbol by the ear, water thrown on the face) and see if we figure it out.
I think our circadian clocks can be profoundly accurate. As a musician, getting into the pulse of a good groove can often be one of those experiences that transcends thought and logic. There are times when everybody can stop playing, yet the pulse continues - you just feel it. Everybody does.
I completely stopped using an alarm clock five or six years ago, after consistently waking a couple minutes before it went off. I always hated the damned things anyway - waking to an alarm is an awful way to start the day, IMHO. So I turned mine off. I've not been late to work because of over sleeping a single time. Not once.
So my body/mind/SC/whatever knows what time it is when I'm sleeping. With that knowledge, nothing is stopping my brain from pacing a dream to climax right at that moment when I should be waking up anyway - just to jerk me around, of course.
I'm not convinced that the SC is limited to dealing with linear time.
Quote from: DrTechnical on May 05, 2009, 06:18:00 AMInteresting thread. I have three comments, two of which are probably obvious:
- Yes, Laberge showed that in very controlled lucid dream experiements monitoring EEG's and pre-determined sequences of eye movements, that perception of time in a lucid dream and real time flow about the same. Of course that is a lucid dream and NOT a non-lucid one. Don't necessarily assume that this relation holds true for a non-lucid dreams. I suspect it does - but we don't know. It's quite possible that dream time gets compressed when we have a strong external stimuli which is in the process of waking us.
Yes, I wondered about that as lucid dreams certainly feel like they're real time even on wakening.
Quote2) The perceived long durations of certain dreams probably has more to do with the jumpy nature of the scene changes. This is a well known trick TV and movie writers use to give a perception that much time has passed, they change from day to night for example, and we feel like 12 hours has passed when it's really been seconds.
Yes, that's how it seems.
Quote3) Also, do not count out precognition of the waking event. There is no telling how precognition might affect dream events or the likelihood of waking. For example, I also experience what you are referring to as dream compression. But I also have an uncanny ability to wake 1-2 minutes before my alarm goes off, even if it's an unusually early setting (e.g. 3:00 am WBTB).
So do I. I put that down to our minds being more powerful than we give them credit for. We have a good timekeeper in our minds. Indeed I've tried to access that IRL and have often guessed the time with uncannily accuracy.
I guess I'm thinking more about improptu wakening rather than a wakening we alrady expect to happen.
QuoteThe only other explaination I can think of for this latter event is that I was in the process of one or more superficial awakenings and noticed the time - but my conscious recollection of alarm setting made me break out of trivial/short awakening mode and into a full blown awakening and recovery of awareness. I lean toward precognition as the answer. I think the mind has a way of realizing weird paradoxical loops that we don't understand - after all this is a major chicken or the egg problem - if you ponder it for a moment.
Yes and that's why it's so interesting.
Quote from: pj on May 05, 2009, 07:38:39 AMI think our circadian clocks can be profoundly accurate. As a musician, getting into the pulse of a good groove can often be one of those experiences that transcends thought and logic. There are times when everybody can stop playing, yet the pulse continues - you just feel it. Everybody does.
I completely stopped using an alarm clock five or six years ago, after consistently waking a couple minutes before it went off. I always hated the damned things anyway - waking to an alarm is an awful way to start the day, IMHO. So I turned mine off. I've not been late to work because of over sleeping a single time. Not once.
Yes, that's what I experience. I haven't used an alarm for about 10 years. Unless I need to get up stupidly early, in which case I wake every few minutes anyway.
QuoteSo my body/mind/SC/whatever knows what time it is when I'm sleeping. With that knowledge, nothing is stopping my brain from pacing a dream to climax right at that moment when I should be waking up anyway - just to jerk me around, of course.
Sounds like sabbotage to me! And it feels like it when it happens. I also wonder if our dreammaker (for want of a better word) manages to do all you say in the seconds between someone/something starting to wake us and our becoming aware.
Quote from: Baphomet on May 05, 2009, 07:46:33 AMI'm not convinced that the SC is limited to dealing with linear time.
Trying to unpick that one, Bahomet. Are you saying that we can also process time at (say) ten times normal speed, or even nonlinear like some kind of cyclical or random changing?
Quote from: Burned up on May 05, 2009, 08:34:12 AMTrying to unpick that one, Bahomet. Are you saying that we can also process time at (say) ten times normal speed, or even nonlinear like some kind of cyclical or random changing?
Not speaking for Baphomet, but your response just jiggled something in my mental wasteland.
If you have ever allowed yourself to be absorbed into an art or craft, you've experienced being "in the zone." It happens all the time, to all people - even when doing something as simple as replying to a thread like this. The Zone, for me, is a place with very warped time. When I'm absorbed in a composition, for example, (be it music or prose,) hours can zoom past and hardly be noticed. If I DID notice the time going by, the task would likely become boring!
When I'm doing something boring, like running a repetitive job at the shop for example, the exact opposite happens. Minutes can become hours, and I get exhausted in no time.
Just from these personal experiences, I know that my brain can perceive time in very different ways and at very different rates. If it can happen when I'm awake, surely it can happen when I'm asleep.
Quote from: Burned upTrying to unpick that one, Bahomet. Are you saying that we can also process time at (say) ten times normal speed, or even nonlinear like some kind of cyclical or random changing?
No, other than the examples that PJ gave where time can seem elastic depending on what we feel, I think that we are pretty much stuck with experiencing time as linear in the physical universe.
I don't know that out SC suffers from this limitation though. Take precognitive dreams for example. If you accept that they exist, the the only 'real' explanation is that your SC had access to future knowledge. Take my my father as an example, who was a preacher, a very practical and down to earth man, who I saw several times wake up in the middle of the night and walk to the phone before it rang with some bad news. I don't know how you would write something like that off as coincidence.
Something within us, the SC I believe, is not bound by the same timeline that we are. So I see something like constructing a dream backwards from the event that wakes us up as being something the SC is quite capable of doing by it's own nature.
Quote from: pj on May 05, 2009, 07:38:39 AMI think our circadian clocks can be profoundly accurate. ...
I completely stopped using an alarm clock five or six years ago, after consistently waking a couple minutes before it went off.
Yes, I agree. But my experience is deeper than that. I tend to set an alarm at some pretty random times. Maybe 7 on the weekend, 6 on a work day, 4 on a work-day were I plan to workout in the morning, and 3 when I plan to do WBTB and some LDing.
So while my bodies internal clock probably has a good idea of what time it is, I never allow wake-up time to fall into any sort of pattern. My schedule has always been very dynamic. I guess one could argue that my mind has a sense of time and remembers when I planned to wake and does so. I guess that's another possible explaination.
Quote from: DrTechnical on May 05, 2009, 09:51:40 AMQuote from: pj on May 05, 2009, 07:38:39 AMI think our circadian clocks can be profoundly accurate. ...
I completely stopped using an alarm clock five or six years ago, after consistently waking a couple minutes before it went off.
Yes, I agree. But my experience is deeper than that. I tend to set an alarm at some pretty random times. Maybe 7 on the weekend, 6 on a work day, 4 on a work-day were I plan to workout in the morning, and 3 when I plan to do WBTB and some LDing.
So while my bodies internal clock probably has a good idea of what time it is, I never allow wake-up time to fall into any sort of pattern. My schedule has always been very dynamic. I guess one could argue that my mind has a sense of time and remembers when I planned to wake and does so. I guess that's another possible explaination.
It's the same for me. The only time my alarm clock has woken me up so far this year was when I had to get up early on a weekend. I only bother with turning the alarm clock on just in case I would sleep in.
In my experience, I can usually somewhat feel how long a (lucid) dream has been, both during it and after waking up. I'm actually worse at guessing time during WILDs, then I tend to have no clue how long I've been dreaming after maybe a few minutes of real time!
Quote from: Baphomet on May 05, 2009, 09:50:50 AMQuote from: Burned upTrying to unpick that one, Bahomet. Are you saying that we can also process time at (say) ten times normal speed, or even nonlinear like some kind of cyclical or random changing?
No, other than the examples that PJ gave where time can seem elastic depending on what we feel, I think that we are pretty much stuck with experiencing time as linear in the physical universe.
I don't know that out SC suffers from this limitation though. Take precognitive dreams for example. If you accept that they exist, the the only 'real' explanation is that your SC had access to future knowledge. Take my my father as an example, who was a preacher, a very practical and down to earth man, who I saw several times wake up in the middle of the night and walk to the phone before it rang with some bad news. I don't know how you would write something like that off as coincidence.
Something within us, the SC I believe, is not bound by the same timeline that we are. So I see something like constructing a dream backwards from the event that wakes us up as being something the SC is quite capable of doing by it's own nature.
I can't explain precognition nor will I attempt to. I have never experienced it myself so, along with stuff like aliens and levitation I keep an open yet admittedly cynical mind. I am aware that some animals seem to be able to sense danger before it happens, though.
But, yes, if you believe it exists then that will certainly explain how we can forsee being awakened, albeit not consciously. (Well, that would be unlikely during sleep anyhow).
I can only go with my own experience and that leads me to look for answers focusing on those moments between a dream coming to an end and our becoming conscious.
I have a dynamic schedule too. My body/mind just knows what time it is which is why I can wake before my alarm at unusual times.
I want to point out that our strict distinction between lucid and non-lucid dreams is inaccurate. Many of my non-lucids have all the details filled in and I recall them with the detail of a ideal lucid dream. And some of my lucid dreams are disjointed and jumpy and could allow for "time compression".
I do like this new explanation for why dreams are interrupted at the wrong moment. But I think it's more likely that our perceptions about how often dreams end like this are biased. We notice when it happens, but don't think about it when it doesn't happen. Or the the dream-plot comes to a conclusion and we forget the happy ending as we continue sleeping.
Aha! The good lucid dreamers all have variable schedules!
A couple times lately when I stayed up very late, I got lucid--probably around the same time I'd normally be waking up.
Well....it's good to know, if you can do the schedule!
Okay, you asked for it Burned up.
In physics they describe things with fundamental quantities like space and time. But these are just concepts; there is not, in nature, anything that is separable into a definite location or instant. What we have instead, is something like the speed of light, which is the same to all observers.
The conscious mind (CM) tries to define speed in terms of space and time. But suppose speed is actually the more fundamental quantity. Space and time are concepts created by the conscious mind to understand the world; and these concepts ultimately break down, and limit the way we perceive. (Note the circular definition; that's CM's thing.)
Thus time is not perceived, but imposed by the CM. I suppose it tries to do it in lucids (but I don't believe it necessarily "syncs" with real time,) and tries to do it to all dreams, during recall. It does it to everything.
Now SC does nothing of the sort; it doesn't operate that way at all. SC sees speed as speed. Call what it produces "content." Then CM does the same thing to content as it does to speed. And if we have corresponding uncertainty principles, we could explain how very long dreams happen in very short times.
Note this doesn't discount some kind of "local precognition," since CM is imposing time, then the idea of when exactly an event occurred has meaning only to it, and not to SC or nature.
It's late.. I guess I'll know tomorrow how incoherent this is.
Quote from: Alex Lou on May 05, 2009, 08:54:02 PMI have a dynamic schedule too. My body/mind just knows what time it is which is why I can wake before my alarm at unusual times.
I want to point out that our strict distinction between lucid and non-lucid dreams is inaccurate. Many of my non-lucids have all the details filled in and I recall them with the detail of a ideal lucid dream. And some of my lucid dreams are disjointed and jumpy and could allow for "time compression".
I do like this new explanation for why dreams are interrupted at the wrong moment. But I think it's more likely that our perceptions about how often dreams end like this are biased. We notice when it happens, but don't think about it when it doesn't happen. Or the the dream-plot comes to a conclusion and we forget the happy ending as we continue sleeping.
Well you may be right, and I prefer the second of your hypotheses. Probably because it's similar to my thoughts about the dream having ended some time before the rude awakening rather than at that moment.
Quote from: mu on May 06, 2009, 02:05:15 AM Okay, you asked for it Burned up.
In physics they describe things with fundamental quantities like space and time. But these are just concepts; there is not, in nature, anything that is separable into a definite location or instant. What we have instead, is something like the speed of light, which is the same to all observers.
I don't think relativity will affect my dreams.
QuoteThe conscious mind (CM) tries to define speed in terms of space and time. But suppose speed is actually the more fundamental quantity. Space and time are concepts created by the conscious mind to understand the world; and these concepts ultimately break down, and limit the way we perceive. (Note the circular definition; that's CM's thing.)
Ultimately everything we think is real is in fact just our rationalised version of it.
QuoteThus time is not perceived, but imposed by the CM. I suppose it tries to do it in lucids (but I don't believe it necessarily "syncs" with real time,) and tries to do it to all dreams, during recall. It does it to everything.
Now SC does nothing of the sort; it doesn't operate that way at all. SC sees speed as speed. Call what it produces "content." Then CM does the same thing to content as it does to speed. And if we have corresponding uncertainty principles, we could explain how very long dreams happen in very short times.
Note this doesn't discount some kind of "local precognition," since CM is imposing time, then the idea of when exactly an event occurred has meaning only to it, and not to SC or nature.
It's late.. I guess I'll know tomorrow how incoherent this is.
Interesting stuff, mu. Reminds me of Vedic philosophy which has the "gross" (i.e. physical substance) as the bottom end of a hierarchy, and the "subtle" (i.e. how things are changing, and things like sounds and thoughts) as the next layer. Like you having speed as the more fundamental quantity. The other two are the causal and the divine, btw. We can't much access those though.
Quote from: mu on May 06, 2009, 02:05:15 AM Okay, you asked for it Burned up.
In physics they describe things with fundamental quantities like space and time. But these are just concepts; there is not, in nature, anything that is separable into a definite location or instant. What we have instead, is something like the speed of light, which is the same to all observers.
The conscious mind (CM) tries to define speed in terms of space and time. But suppose speed is actually the more fundamental quantity. Space and time are concepts created by the conscious mind to understand the world; and these concepts ultimately break down, and limit the way we perceive. (Note the circular definition; that's CM's thing.)
Thus time is not perceived, but imposed by the CM. I suppose it tries to do it in lucids (but I don't believe it necessarily "syncs" with real time,) and tries to do it to all dreams, during recall. It does it to everything.
Now SC does nothing of the sort; it doesn't operate that way at all. SC sees speed as speed. Call what it produces "content." Then CM does the same thing to content as it does to speed. And if we have corresponding uncertainty principles, we could explain how very long dreams happen in very short times.
Note this doesn't discount some kind of "local precognition," since CM is imposing time, then the idea of when exactly an event occurred has meaning only to it, and not to SC or nature.
It's late.. I guess I'll know tomorrow how incoherent this is.
I see what you're getting at, but I think of it more in terms of quantum physics than general relativity. Kind of like the ‘observer problem' only this time we've collapsed the temporal nonlocality instead of the wave function.
Quote from: Baphomet on May 06, 2009, 05:32:47 AMI see what you're getting at, but I think of it more in terms of quantum physics than general relativity. Kind of like the ‘observer problem' only this time we've collapsed the temporal nonlocality instead of the wave function.
Nod nod nod.
Gosh, I don't know how to make it any clearer than that!
Quote from: Burned up on May 06, 2009, 04:33:10 AMI don't think relativity will affect my dreams. Indeed. I meant that analogously, not as a physical theory.
QuoteUltimately everything we think is real is in fact just our rationalised version of it. Okay, now that I'm in a less spaced out mood, I'll put it this way: Dream content can not be described (or recalled) accurately and completely in any conscious way, and any attempts to do so necessarily distort it.
QuoteInteresting stuff, mu. Reminds me of Vedic philosophy which has the "gross" (i.e. physical substance) as the bottom end of a hierarchy, and the "subtle" (i.e. how things are changing, and things like sounds and thoughts) as the next layer. Like you having speed as the more fundamental quantity. The other two are the causal and the divine, btw. We can't much access those though. Not too familiar with Vedic philosophy in particular, but I've heard things divided up in a similar fashion. Very interesting! I suppose they can't be accessed because accessing them doesn't make any sense. (Seriously!)
Quote from: Baphomet on May 06, 2009, 05:32:47 AMI see what you're getting at, but I think of it more in terms of quantum physics than general relativity. Kind of like the ‘observer problem' only this time we've collapsed the temporal nonlocality instead of the wave function. Maybe this is what all the strange cats in my dreams are about! Yes, I suppose you could think of dream time as non-collapsed time. Only during recall does the order of causes arise. Thereafter, of course, it must have been that way.
Did you ever read “flatland”? I think it's kind of like that. We are three dimensional creatures experiencing extra dimensions when we dream. For the sake of argument let's say that time is the fourth dimension. Would it be any big deal for a fourth dimensional creature (let's say the SC) to start at the end and go backwards? That's probably no harder than ‘up' or ‘down' is for us. Of course for us the time arrow only goes one way, so that's the only way we can experience it, hence the collapse. just like the ‘observer problem' in quantum experiments.
Quote from: mu on May 07, 2009, 02:49:28 AMOkay, now that I'm in a less spaced out mood, I'll put it this way: Dream content can not be described (or recalled) accurately and completely in any conscious way, and any attempts to do so necessarily distort it.
OK I'm with you now. Yes, dreams are not anchored to real-world events so why assume they are in real-worl time etc.
QuoteQuoteInteresting stuff, mu. Reminds me of Vedic philosophy which has the "gross" (i.e. physical substance) as the bottom end of a hierarchy, and the "subtle" (i.e. how things are changing, and things like sounds and thoughts) as the next layer. Like you having speed as the more fundamental quantity. The other two are the causal and the divine, btw. We can't much access those though. Not too familiar with Vedic philosophy in particular, but I've heard things divided up in a similar fashion. Very interesting! I suppose they can't be accessed because accessing them doesn't make any sense. (Seriously!)
Well I can't really remember much myself. Something like [principle behind creation etc] -(acts on)-> [causality] -(acts on)-> [change] -(acts on)-> [matter]
Maybe we can get a sense of causality? Anyway, there is no "gross" element to dreams as far as I can understand, so that's what I was thinking of.
Quote from: Baphomet on May 06, 2009, 09:40:09 PMGosh, I don't know how to make it any clearer than that!
Maybe this link will help...
Transactional Interpretation
Quote from: Baphomet on May 07, 2009, 10:20:21 AMMaybe this link will help...
Transactional Interpretation
Ummmmm....yes, I can see what it's getting at. So for something to stop hapening, it has to cancel out something that has started happening. Similarly before something happens, there is a period of equal and opposite activity again cancelling out.
I'm reminded of Fourrier transforms, where an impulse is in fact the result of an infinite number of waves across the whole spectrum coming in phase at exactly the moment of the impulse.
Well, isn't that all just a mathematical artefact? I mean, these waves aren't really there. Are they? If they are then I suppose you can argue your case for precognition. It all rather makes a mess of time as a concept anyway.
According to the Many Worlds Interpretation all possibilities do in fact exist, and the apparent collapse is just due to our subjective perception.
Of course this is all going waaaaay down the rabbit hole. I just happen to like the rabbit hole!
At any rate, whatever is going on something is totally punking linear time!
Quote from: Baphomet on May 08, 2009, 01:54:41 AMAccording to the Many Worlds Interpretation all possibilities do in fact exist, and the apparent collapse is just due to our subjective perception.
Yes but now you're seriously in the realms of conjecture
QuoteOf course this is all going waaaaay down the rabbit hole. I just happen to like the rabbit hole!
...or wormhole...
QuoteAt any rate, whatever is going on something is totally punking linear time!
Yes
Quote from: Baphomet on May 07, 2009, 07:06:15 AMDid you ever read “flatland”? I think it's kind of like that. We are three dimensional creatures experiencing extra dimensions when we dream. For the sake of argument let's say that time is the fourth dimension. Would it be any big deal for a fourth dimensional creature (let's say the SC) to start at the end and go backwards? That's probably no harder than ‘up' or ‘down' is for us. Of course for us the time arrow only goes one way, so that's the only way we can experience it, hence the collapse. just like the ‘observer problem' in quantum experiments. Have I?! It's one of my favorites!
I'll go have a look at those links..