In one thread http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php?topic=5617.new;topicseen#new I promised to post this study. But since it was not published in a free journal like the others, I can only provide the absract here. If you are interested in the whole article, I can send it to you for private use, but not for publication in forums etc.:
Erlacher, D. & Schredl, M. (2010): Practicing a motor task in a lucid dream enhances subsequent performance: A pilot study. Sport Psychologist, 24(2), 157-167.
Nocturnal dreams can be considered as a kind of simulation of the real world on a higher cognitive level. Within lucid dreams, the dreamer is able to control the ongoing dream content and is free to do what he or she wants. In this pilot study, the possibility of practicing a simple motor task in a lucid dream was studied. Forty participants were assigned to a lucid dream practice group, a physical practice group and a control group. The motor task was to toss 10-cent coins into a cup and hit as many as possible out of 20 tosses. Waking performance was measured in the evening and on the next morning by the participants at home. The 20 volunteers in the lucid dream practice group attempted to carry out the motor task in a lucid dream on a single night. Seven participants succeeded in having a lucid dream and practiced the experimental task. This group of seven showed a significant improvement in performance (from 3.7 to 5.3); the other 13 subjects showed no improvement (from 3.4 to 2.9). Comparing all four groups, the physical practice group demonstrated the highest enhancement in performance followed by the successful lucid dream practice group. Both groups had statistically significant higher improvements in contrast to the nondreaming group and the control group. Even though the experimental design is not able to explain if specific effects (motor learning) or unspecific effects (motivation) caused the improvement, the results of this study showed that rehearsing in a lucid dream enhances subsequent performance in wakefulness. To clarify the factors which increased performance after lucid dream practice and to control for confounding factors, it is suggested that sleep laboratory studies should be conducted in the future. The possibilities of lucid dream practice for professional sports will be discussed.
This is very interesting and thank you for posting this study. I can relate to this, in fact, most of the time (I cannot say all because I do not remember) I have practised something physical in a dream, say thai boxing for example, I would see that it would consequently positively affect my practice of it in "real" life (for the lack of a better term). I was actually thinking about this phenomena today and here I come across this study, how convenient !
Makes me think of something I read not so long ago "every time you wish something, the universe conspires to make it happen." Thanks again.
Quote from: yuften on February 18, 2013, 05:12:08 PMThis is very interesting and thank you for posting this study. I can relate to this, in fact, most of the time (I cannot say all because I do not remember) I have practised something physical in a dream, say thai boxing for example, I would see that it would consequently positively affect my practice of it in "real" life (for the lack of a better term). I was actually thinking about this phenomena today and here I come across this study, how convenient !
Makes me think of something I read not so long ago "every time you wish something, the universe conspires to make it happen." Thanks again.
That's how I felt when I "found" this forum!
Interesting. I wouldn't have thought motor skills would be something you could improve in dreams. It seems counter-intuitive.
Quote from: Moonbeam on February 18, 2013, 08:52:58 PMInteresting. I wouldn't have thought motor skills would be something you could improve in dreams. It seems counter-intuitive. Motor skills can absolutely be improved by rehearsing things while in a lucid state, just as visualizing things while not dreaming can improve ones performance. The advantage of rehearsing things while in a lucid state would be that a person would be deeper and more in tune with their subconscious mind during this state, and could actually be rehearsing the things using their dream body instead of just going through the things in their imagination as they would while not dreaming.
It just seems like things wouldn't fly right, so to speak. If you toss coins at a cup, you could TK them in there, for example, or they could just float away. To do that IRL, it seems like just practice against physics. But physics in dreams isn't always the same.
That's why I thought that.
Quote from: yuften on February 18, 2013, 05:12:08 PMThis is very interesting and thank you for posting this study. I can relate to this, in fact, most of the time (I cannot say all because I do not remember) I have practised something physical in a dream, say thai boxing for example, I would see that it would consequently positively affect my practice of it in "real" life (for the lack of a better term). I was actually thinking about this phenomena today and here I come across this study, how convenient !
Makes me think of something I read not so long ago "every time you wish something, the universe conspires to make it happen." Thanks again.
You are welcome, yuften! Actually, did you read my post where I am looking for participants for my interview study? It seems like you have experience with practicing sports in your lucid dreams! This is exactly what I am looking for! I will also contact you in a PM shortly, but I wanted to reply here also, so that everyone who has practiced movements in a lucid dream at least once (whether successfully or not), knows that I am very much interested in their experience(s)!
Here is my call for participants:
Participants wanted for the interview study
Motor practice in lucid dreams <<<
A lucid dream is here defined as a dream in which the dreamer is aware that he or she is dreaming. For my study „Motor practice in lucid dreams“ I am looking for participants (male/ female) who
- have actively practiced a movement in a lucid dream at least once and - are willing to be interviewed via telephone (within Germany) or Skype (international)
If you do or did sports (either professionally or as a hobby) or play(ed) an instrument and if you have actively practiced for one of these activities at least once, you have the chance to make an important contribution to research. All data will be published anonymously. You don’t have to be a frequent lucid dreamer. It is also alright, if you have not practiced in lucid dreams recently as long as your memory of the event(s) is still precise.
If you are interested or have questions please contact: Melanie Schädlich: melanie.schaedlich(at)issw.uni-heidelberg.de
If you know lucid dreamers/ athletes/ musicians, please forward this information to them! Thanks!
Quote from: Moonbeam on February 18, 2013, 10:11:38 PMIt just seems like things wouldn't fly right, so to speak. If you toss coins at a cup, you could TK them in there, for example, or they could just float away. To do that IRL, it seems like just practice against physics. But physics in dreams isn't always the same.
That's why I thought that.
That's true, Moonbeam and, of course this is one of the big problems with lucid dream practice. But it is just the same as with all other things or tasks you attempt to test in a lucid dream: It depends very much on your motivation, expectations, doubts, focus and patience. it's somthing one could work on.
I have already interviewed some people for my study and some of them have had amazing experiences with practicing motor skills while lucid! Sometimes problems arise, but that does not mean that you can not deal with them or maybe it just works better in the following LD...
Also, you are right: physics in dreams are not always the same as in waking life, but what is more important is that when you perform a certain movement in you dream, the "programme" for that movement is actually carried out in the way as if you were moving in waking life! At least this is what we can assume from dream research and even more, from research on mental simulation, so far. So brain-wise you DO carry out the movement, but your brain stems acutally stops you from acting out the movement physically - a function which is not working for people with REM disorder (they actually DO act out there dreams :( ) This is why you could improve...you rehearse motor programmes. Of course, a criticial factor to discuss here is the missing feedback from both the(physical) body and the environment. It can be assumed that the brain manages to simulate this feedback to a certain extent - in that case it would be helpful to have at least some experience with the movement in waking life already - the simulation of the feedback might be more real then.
Regarding the example of coin throwing: I think it does not really matter if the cup in the dream is positioned in the exact same way as in wakefulness. I tihnk it is more important to practice that specific eye-hand coordination while dreaming and thereby improving that neuronal programme.
I think there is plenty still to be shown by research - especially using imaging techniques which are constantly improved so that now participants can actually sleep in the newest fMRI scanners, because they are not as loud as they used to be.
Quote from: iadr on February 18, 2013, 09:16:05 PMQuote from: Moonbeam on February 18, 2013, 08:52:58 PMInteresting. I wouldn't have thought motor skills would be something you could improve in dreams. It seems counter-intuitive. Motor skills can absolutely be improved by rehearsing things while in a lucid state, just as visualizing things while not dreaming can improve ones performance. The advantage of rehearsing things while in a lucid state would be that a person would be deeper and more in tune with their subconscious mind during this state, and could actually be rehearsing the things using their dream body instead of just going through the things in their imagination as they would while not dreaming.
Exactly! Some may call it "subconscious", others might say that you are not as rationally thinking about each step of your performance - it is possible that lucid dreams help you, because you move rather intuitively.
Of course, ever one is different and the (whether subjectively felt or objectively measured) success of lucid dream practice probably depends on many things like level of expertise, familiarity with the movement, degree of lucidity, degree of focus, expectations (or being open to things), experience with lucid dream practice itself...
One improtant application of lucid dream practice - next to complementing your waking practice - could be to practice when you are not able to practice physically, because you are injured or it's not the right season (winter sports) etc...
Yes I know that research supports that visualization improves performance of motor skills. I've never tried it, but I don't doubt it's true. However, I would guess that visualizing while awake in a quiet environment and focusing totally on the movement would be much more effective for the vast majority of people than learning how to lucid dream, trying to remember to do the movement in a dream, isolating that from the rest of the things going on in the dream, and at the same time having a high enough level of consciousness to remember your goal, and not be distracted by the first bright shiny thing that comes along.
A lucid dream is still a dream, and logic and memory don't work the same way they do as when a person is awake. That's why I think focusing on it while awake would be way more effective than trying to get this all to happen in a dream.
Quote from: melanie_schaedlich on February 23, 2013, 10:48:37 AMExactly! Some may call it "subconscious", others might say that you are not as rationally thinking about each step of your performance - it is possible that lucid dreams help you, because you move rather intuitively. With any kind of motor skill, once you are good at it, you don't think about it consciously even when you are awake. In dreams, you won't have the feedback of reality to know if your intuition is taking you the right way.
QuoteOf course, ever one is different and the (whether subjectively felt or objectively measured) success of lucid dream practice probably depends on many things like level of expertise, familiarity with the movement, degree of lucidity, degree of focus, expectations (or being open to things), experience with lucid dream practice itself... Yes. I think those are the things that will stand in the way of most people. I don't doubt that the mind practicing a skill even if the body isn't moving would help, but why do it in dreams, with all the other complications?
QuoteOne improtant application of lucid dream practice - next to complementing your waking practice - could be to practice when you are not able to practice physically, because you are injured or it's not the right season (winter sports) etc... That would be great, if it were practical. But I think that it's going to be very disappointing to the majority of people, if they are told they should learn to lucid dream, and then they can do their favorite thing all the time.
I don't mean to be so negative. It's just that I've been around a lot of lucid dreamers for a long time, and read thousands and thousands of lucid dreams. A lot of people start out thinking that they are going to use dreams for this sort of thing (I did myself), but it doesn't work out that way very often. I can't really remember anybody doing it. Maybe those people just aren't journaling on lucid dream-forums, I don't know.
Usually, a person is lucky if they can manage to carry out a simple task they have planned ahead of time. Practicing a movement over and over in dreams is going to be extremely difficult or impossible for most people. This is the just the first-hand experience of knowing how lucid dreams work, and reading a whole lot of other average lucid dreamers' experiences. I'm sure there are some people who could manage to do this, but they would be very rare. It's just not going to be practical for the vast majority of people.
I think it's great that people are doing research on dreams. I hope your study shows what you want it to show. I love lucid dreaming. It is absolutely the most amazing thing that the human mind can experience. But that is not because of what I have decided ahead of time to do, it just happened. It would be great to be able to use that time productively, but I think people are going to be disappointed by what can be accomplished, IF they are trying to have control of their dreams and carry out waking motivations. They will have a lot of unexpected benefits, however.
Anyway, just my opinion. It would be great if it worked. If you've already found people who are doing this effectively, I guess it's possible. I do think that the next step of comparing the effectiveness of waking visualization and lucid practice would be a good study. Hopefully, waking visualization would be just as good, because that is available to almost everybody.
Quote from: melanie_schaedlich on February 23, 2013, 10:48:37 AMOne improtant application of lucid dream practice - next to complementing your waking practice - could be to practice when you are not able to practice physically, because you are injured or it's not the right season (winter sports) etc... Good example melanie. Iadr remembers when Priest Holmes who used to play as a running back for the Kansas City Chiefs was injured, and could not practice during the week, so just practiced mentally during the week, and then played in the games. And although he practiced mentally, he was not as good as he would have been if he had been able to go through the practices physically, because his body was not as strong. So it does help if a person can do both.
There have also been cases of defensive football players, who always seem to be in the right place to make a couple of interceptions every game, as the ball seems to just be drawn to them. One such player when asked about this, mentioned how he always visualizes himself making interceptions during the week before the games. Iadr would guess that his visualizations cause his subconscious to help him just be in the right place during the games to make those interceptions.
If these kinds of results can be obtained just through visualization, it just makes sense that practicing them during lucid dreams would be even more powerful...and fun.
Also, figure skaters will go through their programs in their minds, "feeling" their bodies going through the movements/jumps/spins, almost right up to competition time - many can and have been quite successful with visualization!
Yes, everybody knows visualization works.
I wish you all the best with your research and look forward to the conclusions drawn.
I am curious as to how the data can be objectively validated. How does one isolate and measure the lucid dream component of a waking state improvement in performance.
Do we know how many of the world's top sports competitors have LD as part of their training regime.
Does self-belief improve performance. Can LD engender greater self-belief.
As an archer and lucid dreamer I would not use LD as an aid to my waking performance, probably the opposite in fact. Almost all of my waking time would be dedicated to the task of mastering archery leaving my LD time as an amusement break.
Quote from: Jomid59 on February 24, 2013, 08:27:36 AMDo we know how many of the world's top sports competitors have LD as part of their training regime.
Does self-belief improve performance. Can LD engender greater self-belief.
As an archer and lucid dreamer I would not use LD as an aid to my waking performance, probably the opposite in fact. Almost all of my waking time would be dedicated to the task of mastering archery leaving my LD time as an amusement break.
I would hazard a guess that there may be some top competitors actually do LD, but at the present time, would not openly admit to it, which is a shame, as we would all agree. And I would agree with you, Jomid59, that I would not want to "waste" my LDs on mastering some physical feats - I mostly like to "play"
--- Quote from: Moonbeam on February 18, 2013, 08:52:58 PM ---Interesting. I wouldn't have thought motor skills would be something you could improve in dreams. It seems counter-intuitive.
--- End quote --- Motor skills can absolutely be improved by rehearsing things while in a lucid state, just as visualizing things while not dreaming can improve ones performance. The advantage of rehearsing things while in a lucid state would be that a person would be deeper and more in tune with their subconscious mind during this state, and could actually be rehearsing the things using their dream body instead of just going through the things in their imagination as they would while not dreaming.