Greetings,
I have what may seem to be a simple question, what level of awareness do other people experience in a 'normal' or non-lucid dream? Or phrased another way, do other people have the same quality of consciousness while in a non-lucid dream as they do in waking life?
I ask because my normal dream state includes the ability to remember events both from real life and from past dreams, do math in my head, and read a consistent meaning in text even if the phrasing changes. Usually, the environment is more vibrant and intense than that of real life. The only thing not included is the knowledge that I am dreaming.
Bill,
Maybe you're having "tacit lucid dreams", which apparently I also suffer from (LOL). I understand these to be LD's just shy of full lucidity. You know you're not awake, neither do you feel like you're in an ordinary dream; conscious, but without full awareness of the dream state. For me, in spite of this absence of full awareness, my level of consciousness is much closer to wakefulness than to ordinary dreams, which are a blur at best.
Sweet... Paul
Paul,
Thanks for responding. Most people write about a dream as if they are taking deliberate concious action. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't way behind the curve.
So would it be fair to say that your average dream is like being in a smoky theater, watching a subtitleless foreign film of someone that looks like you doing things, and you occasionally have dreams in which you are almost wake?
Bill & Paul,
How do you know whether your dreams were blurry or just your memory of them? Maybe you remember the dream being blurry only because the memory has faded. I've noticed most of my dreams being blurry too, unless I woke up right in the middle of one, then I remember it as being a clear dream.
John
John,
good question. For the most part, my dreams aren't blurry. Years ago they were, but as I have spent more time paying attention to them, they have increased in vividness and intensity until they surpass waking life.
In a given month, assuming that I hadn't more than a couple of drinks the night before, I will have three or four nights in a row where my recall is unclear, the vague impression of doing things in a properly colored environment.
For the rest of the month, I have no problem recalling in detail multiple dreams a night. Just no awareness that it is a dream, I think that I am awake. While in the dream, I have, for the most part, the same level of conciousness and volition as I do while awake.
For those dreams that you woke up in the middle of, was your state of conciousness while in the dream the same as your normal conciousness, or where you just the observer as the dream took place around you?
Bill,
That's an interesting question. Have you ever really considered your state of consciousness while awake? Ever since beginning to learn about lucid dreaming, I've become more and more interested in what we refer to as consciousness. It's not nearly as simple as I once thought. (Actually, I'm not sure I ever gave much thought to what consciousness really is.) Now that I've been thinking and reading about it for awhile, I can say it's a bit like pondering the infinite.
Your brain is currently receiving limitless inputs, yet you can focus on only one thing in any given finite moment. What you describe in your dream sounds like a lack of focus on anything. I suspect that while dreaming, there really isn't any focus at all. You aren't really watching the dream while you're dreaming. In remembering the dream afterward, you recall it as though you were only watching it, because you weren't conscious at the time you were dreaming. Gets kind of heavy, doesn't it?!
-John
John, that's my point. Memory of my lucid dreams is always much more immediate compared to memory of ordinary dreams even when I wake up during or right after one. And unless I become lucid OR wake up, I don't even realize I'm dreaming, because "I" am not there to realize it.
Bill, I like your description of ordinary dreams, but I would add that my lucid dreams feel EXACTLY like being awake, not just ALMOST like, only I know that I'm not awake because I can't fly, rip doors off their hinges, and have sex whenever I like when I'm truly awake, sadly! What makes my LD's tacit, I guess, is that I never tell myself, "This is a dream!" It seems to me to be another real world, just like this one is real.
Paul,
Oh, I agree completely. I still have very few lucid dreams, but when I do, they can be exactly like being awake. In one, I was in an office building looking out the window. I looked all around. I could see every detail just exactly like I was awake. I tried to identify where I was, but it was unfamiliar. I could see the city all around me, and the highways with cars coming and going. There were trees and people and everything else I would normally see in waking life. It was a very strange sensation knowing I was asleep yet being completely coherent and aware of all my surroundings.
I suspect the reason normal dreams are blurry is because we have to mentally make the connection between consciousness and the dream after the fact; from memory. It's a bit like trying to remember what happened a moment ago regarding something I wasn't focusing on. Like when you realize you've done something without thinking about it, and then trying to remember doing it. It's fuzzy if you can even remember anything at all.
-John
John,
Actually yes. I came across a form of meditation years ago where you try to remember what you were thinking 5 minutes ago. This tends to create a constant state of self-reflection.
The book 'the user illusion' makes the arguement that the subconsciousness reduces the amount of data you receive into 5 to 15 discrete information glyphs (for lack of a better word) per second. That seems to be the most that most people can handle. And, of course, this reduction requires about half second to occur. Then you mind lies to you and pretends that you noticed the information half a second ago.
You can prove this by learning to recognize with your concious mind the sound of a phone ringing. When you have succeeded, your mind will continue to lie to you about when you recognized the sound which results in the feeling that you 'knew' the phone was about to ring, about half a second before it does.
As to the lack of focus, I would have to disagree, but I am not sure what you mean by focus. If you mean being able to pay deliberate attention to a random object in a dream, I am able to do that easily.
Since I have cats, I generally don't get a large block of uninterupted sleep. I was recently in a dream browsing in a bookstore trying to decide if a) I already had a certain book, and b) if I wanted to get it when a cat event woke me up. My attempts to remember if I owned the book, and if I was interested enough to buy it were still in my short term memory as I woke up.
And this is the crux of my original question. The only difference I can see now between what I consider to be a 'normal' dream and waking life is that I keep waking up where I went to sleep, seeing the same people, and things are where I put them down. And it takes forever to get anywhere. But I do remember a time when I didn't remember dreaming, and those I did remember were fuzzy.
Paul
Do you immediately take control of the dream, or do you ride along with it? Do you have a semi-stable dream geography and keep running into the same people?
I still remember the first dream I had when colors were more intense than those of real life. I don't usually eat or drink in a dream but I have recently had two different dreams that I have.
In one, I could smell a latte and it was the most wonderful thing I have ever smelled. In real life, I hate coffee and have never ever ever drunk it. In fact, I can't stand the smell of latte.
In the other dream, I ate part of a green pepper and it was the most intense taste I have ever had in my life, waking or dreaming.
'I' am there in a normal dream, it just never occurs to me to question if it is real or not.
William:
I must interrupt this excellent exchange to note that you seem very close to achieving lucid dreams. In fact, so many pieces are in place, I'm surprised you haven't already had one! But then again, maybe you did, and just forgot! ;)
I can't tell from what you wrote whether you truly want to go this route or not, but you are on this site, so I'll assume that you do.
You might just need some personal training to push you over the edge into conscious awareness of the clear stimuli you are already experiencing.
Have you read Stephen LaBerge's book, "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming," yet? It's loaded with practical help to get you lucid. You could also check out the "How do I learn to have lucid dreams?" section of this site's FAQ's -- it could be very helpful.
Okay, "nuff said.
Sorry to interrupt,
Peter
Greetings,
Actually I bought it when the first edition came out. I also came across Castaneda's books just before 'the second ring of power' came out.
The main problem that I have is when I try to enter directly into REM sleep without letting go of my conscious awareness is that I don't get deep enough. After a couple of nights of no real dreaming, I tend to get, irritable. Plus I am left with the feeling the next morning that I haven't actually slept at all. Its actually very irritating.
If I try the 'am I dreaming' technique, I usually look around and determine that the world is too solid and detailed to be a dream, and trying to use magical powers doesn't occur to me.
When I spontaneously enter a lucid dream, I either get so excited that I wake up, or keep wavering back and forth across the boundry between lucid and non-lucid, or am not quite me. It is the same consciousness that I have while awake, its just a slightly different personality. Almost as if there are two of me, one that lives in the waking world, and one that lives in the dreaming world. And those lucid dreams are as far above a 'normal' lucid dream as lucid dreams are above normal dreams.
What I have experienced, is that over the years, I can bring more and more of my waking consciousness and abilities into a dream. At some point, I assume, I will reach a state where there is no difference between waking and dreaming in terms of awareness and consciousness.
Does that track with other people's experience?
Will,
Certianly the frustrations you've experienced ring a bell.
If you've trained yourself to ask the question 'am I dreaming?' why not something more specific?
Rob
Rob,
Thats why I bought a nova dreamer. I'm getting used to sleeping with it on, and I got a transient 'I'm dreaming' last night when the light flashed. Hopefully, it will speed things up.
Bill, I don't "take control" of my dream at all. It's much more fun to let the dream evolve by itself. I do take control of my SELF, however. I make immediate choices about what I want to do, where I want to go, how I want to get there, but always within the dream context. If I look up and see stars, I may decide to rocket toward one, or not. I haven't really tried to completely alter the dream context, mainly because whatever presents itself is so amazing I get emotionally involved in it right away. My dreamscapes are truly unbelievable! Plus, they change themselves without any help from me. It's a little like being a character in a story that keeps writing itself. Don't know what's coming next, can't wait to find out. As for other people, they're a rarity in my dreams in any personal way, just part of the background.
Will,
When you write,
"...this reduction requires about half second to occur. Then you mind lies to you and pretends that you noticed the information half a second ago."
Is that a typo? should it read; your mind lies to you pretending that you notice the information immediately?
It occurs to me that the practice of willing yourself to recall (in the waking world) the last few minutes, mirrors the dream recall technique where once councious of waking the practioner lies still asking 'what was I just thinking about?'
Prehaps it is why you can easily recall multiple dreams without waking.
Have you experimented with abonding memory practice for a period and focusing solely on exercises designed for state testing.
I speculate that the strength you've built in one area is sufficient enough to be neglected for a while...
I know the above makes a few assumptions but what do you think.
P.S. you write like, Tor Norretrandess.
Rob
Rob
Thanks, I enjoyed reading his book "The User Illusion" and thought it was well written. I try to be a precise as possible when I am dealing with very abstract concepts. Since I can't tell what assumptions other people hold. For all I know everyone else regards waking life as something you do when you can't dream anymore.
If you notice the end result of the information reduction immediately, that implies that you notice it a half second after an event occurs.
By back dating when you think you noticed the information reduction, you have the illusion that you function in real time. Reflexive actions do occur in real time, at as low a level as possible, this one of the reasons that a defensive reflex is faster than an attack.
Interesting experiment that I unintentionally performed one day, heat a cookie tray to about 120 degrees while pre-heating an oven. Think it is cool enough to remove without using a towel. Override the reflex to let go. You can actually feel the "OW! HOT!" message moving up your arm as each branch point in your nervous system says "What are you doing? Let go!" Needless to say, I have been very reluctant to perform this one again.
One of the theories put forth is that a half second is the most time you can spend processing before you suffer an evolutionary disadvantage. If you do less than a half second of processing, you react faster, you just don't live in as information rich a universe, and this reduces the number of information glyphs you receive.
Personally, I think that intelligence is actually a measure of the number of information glyphs you can process per second.
The problem is that I am running out of tests that I can perform, since I don't consider levitating objects, flying, or ignoring injuries to be unusual, not that I claim to be able to do any of those in real life. The best 'normal' activity test I have now is that my handwriting in a dream is on a first grade level, while in real life it is at least on a third grade level.
I am hopeful that the visual queue of the nova dreamer will help me over the hump.
I also suspect that I am afraid that once I start being lucid at will, I won't be able to stop, and will never again be able to lose consciousness.
Paul,
Mine are usually full of people. The ones that I know either in real life, or keep running into, tend to speak slowly and with significance (and with much raising of eyebrows) to me, waiting for me to catch on.
The rest usually want me to do things for them. It gets annoying sometimes.
William,
I would have to say that my "non-lucid" dreams seem to be much more fuzzy and "fog-like" than my lucid dreams do, but as soon as I realize that I'm lucid the dream clears up considerably. It's the same as being in waking life. Perhaps it's more fuzzy because we aren't thinking about every aspect of the dream, but just going into situation after situation with the speed of thought, therefore hindering our perceptions to be less clear and/or significant. For instance;the other day I was having a "regular" "unaware" dream, than I remembered that I was dreaming and the entire dream "became alive" with color and detail;I then flew to the top of the ceiling (I was dreaming about being in a hallway) and I stayed on the ceiling. I knew not to let myself go through the ceiling because I came to understand (in my mind) that the ceiling was my conciousness, and if I were to go through it, I would awake;so I let myself stay on the ceiling until I was ready to awake. It was great. I hope this gave you some help. Happy dreaming!!!! Brent
Will,
Laberge addresses the fear of being unable to prevent oneself from having lucid dreams in ETWLD (it might also be covered in the FAQ section of this site).
He states that all we need to do to reduce or cease lucid dreams is stop willing ourselfs to have them.
Its down to the will, Will, if you'll pardon the pun.
Brent,
When you do become lucid, are you able to do the same mental activities you are able to do in waking life? Have you ever tried writing something down, or doing basic math? If so, were you able to do so as easily as in waking life or was it more difficult?
William,
I am indeed very interested in those same aspects of lucid dreaming. I myself have never experienced either of those (though I have never tried). But I do know that when I was dreaming, I could see everything "better" than in waking life. I don't know exactly how, but it was beautiful. Light was more penetrating and I could feel the life force of the people in my dream. I think that you most definitely could do math (simple or complex) in your LD. I feel that way because I have noticed things in my dreams that are very complex, things which I know and usually take me some time to contemplate in waking life. Things such as physics equations and astronomical understandings. I think that the more you have, the better, and more free they will become. As long as you concentrate all of your energy on the piece of paper (or whatever you are using to write the math down) you should still be able to see it, and understand it. But to answer you original question, yes, I am still able to use my mind in the same way, and recall the same things, but to a much greater degree, much more special way. I seem to know much more about everything. I think that only experience can gain to our knowledge of this wonderful phenomenon. Hope this helps. Keep investigating what the mind can do. Brent
William:
I may have to pick up a copy of "The User Illusion.' That half-second delay you've said it discusses is most interesting, and might be worth investigating while lucid. This is because I would imagine that this delay doesn't exist during a dream (why should it? All stimuli are coming from the same place that's doing the perception; there should be no need for processing time), but, when lucid, your consciousness might be expecting the delay. And it's not there! Awareness of instant perception might be one of the subtle, rarely mentioned aspects of lucid dreaming that help make it such a fascinating event. Thanks for sharing!
Peter
P.S. As long as I'm here ' you said that your problem is that you're running out of tests to perform. Why not just keep doing the same tests, maybe altering them by changing what you write (I suggest you try different math equations, to get your dreaming mind used to the subject)? If the test works, and it is something you can easily prepare for before sleep, perhaps it's worth continuing.
Peter
Since the delay is the length of the processing pipeline for your brain, i.e. the amount of time it takes to reduce and correlate sensory data down into information glyphs, if the delay is gone in a lucid dream (and how could you test for it?) that would imply very strongly that conciousness is seperate from the brain. The implications to that are actually quite significant.
- The 'soul' actually exists and is no longer a matter of faith/belief.
- Artificial intelligence may not be a solvable problem without finding some way to put a 'soul' into a machine.
- Brain size might have little or nothing to do with intelligence and/or self awareness.
The problem becomes that as I use a test, I start doing it while in a non-lucid dream. It feels like I am training myself to bring more and more of my waking mind into all of my dreams, raising the baseline for what I would consider to be normal.
Rob
If my normal dream state was fuzzy and out of focus, I would agree with your point, however, since my baseline for a normal dream is pre-lucid, I would assume that I would return to that state if I stopped intending to have lucid dreams. I suspect that I would fall over the edge into full lucidity regardless of my intentions at that point.
Brent,
When you say you see "better" do you mean that everything is in perfect focus (implying you wear glasses or contacts during the day as I do) or that it is more visually intense?
Now for the tricky questions. Do you have the same level of bodily awareness as you do in real life? And is the dream environment 'solid'?
I put solid in quotes because it is one of those abstract things that is hard to explain. In most of the lucid dreams I have had, the landscape is there, it just doesn't have a feel of permanence to it. In some very rare dreams, the landscape feels old, like it has weight, as if it were solid. The fact that those dreams also deal with places that I know actually exist might have something to do with it.
Rob, I am just learning to alter my LD environment a bit. It always seems solid and real until I decide to change something, then unreal things happen, like objects merging together or disappearing. Once I saw a planet in the distance (I like to do a lot of space travel), and wanted to visit. Instead of landing there I seemed to merge with it somehow, and there I was. Very bizarre.
The few times I patted my own body down in a dream I was as solid as in waking life.
-Paul
Sorry, I meant Bill.
I must be dreaming.
-Paul
William:
In response to your 1:43 pm post to me:
To use lucid dreaming as a tool toward discovery of that magnitude would indeed validate all our efforts, wouldn't it? A test for a "missing delay" is beyond me right now, but if you ever come up with one -- or find someone who did -- please be sure to let us know.
I understand your problem now, I think (correct me, again, if I'm wrong). It would be difficult to recognize a dream as a dream, and then wake up in it, if all your prep work is neatly incorporated into the regular dream.
Maybe you could try simple reality testing? Just scan your surroundings to confirm that this is not a dream whenever something slightly odd occurs during waking hours (i.e., if a large purple bird lands on your windowsill, you will say, "That's odd," to yourself, and do a quick reality test). This way you can incorporate a behavior that tests whether you're dreaming right into your dreams.
And I suggest that you not worry about what happens when you can become lucid at will until the ability presents itself; you might appreciate more control over your conscious state than you currently expect.
Peter
P.S. There is an excellent (and clearer) exchange about the "That's Odd" stance in the "thru 9/16/00" archive of the Learning Lucid Dreaming: Discussion of Primary Techniques: Reality Testing forum. Look especially for Keelin's posts.
William:
Just to get back on subject here --
Aside from the awareness of the dream, and the control, freedom, and emotions that accompany that awareness, I rarely notice much of a difference between the, um, production quality of my regular dreams and my lucid dreams.
Peter
Will,
However you previously posted that your memory of your dreams improved when you started to pay attention to them.
Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 07:46 pm:
"...good question. For the most part, my dreams aren't blurry. Years ago they were, but as I have spent more time paying attention to them, they have increased in vividness and intensity until they surpass waking life."
I'd say again that it is the paying attention that matters.
If we stop paying attention then gradually our recall of our dreams fades and hence our perception of what they are like.
Maybe its not true, but its reasuring and anecdotal experience bears out the attention recall thoery?
Peter
That is exactly right. I am a victim of my own indifference. I have been working on lucid dreaming in a half-assed way ever since LaBerge's first book came out. I work on it until I feel I am not actually sleeping at all, start to suffer from lack of deep REM, than give it up. Several months later I start the cycle again.
As a result, my normal dreams become more and more detailed, my recollection has increased to the point that I sometimes forget 'where' I had a conversation with someone that I know (try having to explain that, especially if what you dreamed they told you is something they consider to be a big secret), and the difference between my waking and dreaming consciousness erodes.
Its gotten to the point that I can feel the effort being made to incorporate a waking ability into my dreaming mind. The first time I tried to add up a check in a dream it felt like I was trying to lift my arm without it actually moving. Since then it had become easier.
I believe that the two states will eventually merge, I would like to hurry that proces up.
I too, can no longer tell the difference in production qualities between lucid and non-lucid. Both are Better Than Life (BTL) which leads to another one of those deep philosophical question thingy: If dream reality is more detailed and intense than waking life, has a stable landscape, and the only advantage of waking reality is you wake up where you went to sleep (which does happen if I dream I go to sleep), which one is real?
Robert
I have kept a dream journal off and on for cough decades. At first it was necessary to aid in recall, and had to be done first thing in the morning to get any decent amount of detail.
Now, if I can be bothered to write down the 2-5 typed pages of events per night, it can be pretty much anytime. No different than asking me what I did a week ago Tuesday. If it was something more than "I got up, went to work, came home..." the recall doesn't fade any faster than it does for waking events.
I don't bother to suggest I will remember my dreams, or that I will remember multiple dreams, it just happens all by itself now.
Granted, at one point I used a suggestion that I would briefly wake up after each dream and remember a keyword for it. In the morning I just needed to recall the keywords, and then the dreams would follow.
Paul
Next time you are lucid, try feeling the blood flowing in your veins, or pay attention to your breathing. It should be an interesting experience.
William, have you done it? What did you find?
-Paul
William:
That's an interesting, and surprisingly familiar situation you've found yourself in. When the memories of dreams become equal to, or occasionally surpass, the memories of reality, it does beg the question: which one is real? Keep in mind that that can only happen subjectively, though, because somewhere along the line you must confirm that one set of memories are your experiences as a living breathing person wandering through the external-stimuli-ridden chaos of a shared corporeal existence, and the other is just the stuff you made up in your sleep -- no matter how impressive it is. Now I'm not a psychologist (so feel free to ignore all of my opinions!) but I believe that, in order to keep the guys with the big nets at bay, you're going to need to master the differentiation of the memories of your two worlds. Don't forget that the mundane world attaches great advantage to the fact that you wake up where you went to sleep, especially around dinnertime.
I have a feeling that learning to experience regular lucid dreams might just help your situation, not hurt it. This is because when you are lucid you are consciously aware. And, when you are aware, you can appreciate the non-reality of the dream you are in. When you do this, your mind should file the memory of that appreciation alongside the dream itself, and you might be able to tell the difference between which dreams are real and which are not. So, when awake, you will have certain memories flagged as dreams because you were aware they were dreams from the start. This is particularly important when the sensations in your dreams virtually match those of waking life. And, if you eventually can be lucid all the time, then you'll be able to separate all of your dream memories from real memories. Plus, from my experience (and hopefully a more knowledgeable researcher from the Lucidity Institute will confirm or deny this), prolonged lucid dreaming should cause no real physiological harm.
It's almost as though over the years you have gathered all the nuts and bolts required to be an accomplished lucid dreamer, but you've neglected to piece them together. Maybe now is the time to attempt another assembly. With your kind of dream recall and experience, prolonged lucidity should be enormously constructive. But you still might need some special tools to finagle those pieces into lucidity. Again, I suggest you look elsewhere in the forum, especially in the Learning Lucid Dreaming section, for novel suggestions. Many bright people have provided tips that just might be what you need.
One caveat, though: If the intermingling of your real and dream memories becomes difficult to manage, and lucidity doesn't help (or just isn't happening) you might want to consider chatting with a psychologist (or similar counsel) who has knowledge of dreams and might be able to offer other suggestions.
The best of both worlds,
Peter
Paul
When I have done it, I have experienced the same kind of heightened awareness of my body and its internal structures as you get with the dream environment. Among other things, I had an awareness of all of the bones and muscles in my body, and how they fit together. Made me wonder why doctors had to study anatomy
Peter,
I never said that I couldn't tell the two apart, that is why I phrased the question as a philosophical one. A "Am I a man who dreamt I was a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming I am a man?" kind of thing.
What I did say was I have on occasion had a dreams of talking to someone that I knew while in a familiar setting, and memories of talking to that same person. Lacking any obvious clue that one happened in a dream, it is no more significant than asking a friend a question about a conversation you had with someone else. Something that happens on occasion to everyone.
And with my shiny tin-foil hat, I can keep the CIA from using their mind control ray to make me watch major league baseball.
(That last part was a joke. Really.)
William,
By "better", I mean the focus and the intensity. When I realized I was dreaming, I suddenly saw my entire environment as perfect as if I were awake. I don't wear glasses or contacts but I could see perfectly in focus at the time. Also, the colors and scenery seem to be more vibrant. I think whatever you "focus" on while LDing, that aspect will be perfect for you. You just have to remember to think about it while dreaming.
As to your question about bodily awareness, it varies. Sometimes I feel solid and "real" and sometimes I feel like a "un-earthly" "being". feel that I can do anything, walk through walls, fly, or whatever. Again, it depends on what i'm doing in the dream, and how real I want it to feel as compared to real life. Like if your having a dream about driving a car, it will probably be better to think of yourself as "solid" as compared to a having a dream about flying around town. I think it depends on how you want yourself to be. My dream envronment is usually solid. I can't remember a time that it wasn't. But again, think you could change it if you wanted to.
Also, I don't know how much you know about astral projection, or if you even believe in it, but a dream is nothing more than you soul leaving your body and making this scenery inside of your mind. In reality, it's just the opposite, your in the real world, and what's there normaly is there when your dreaming, your just percieving something different to make it more comfortable. But more on that if someone's interested. Hope this helps. Brent
William:
Sorry about reading too much (or too little, perhaps) into your post. I hope I didn't put you off by my 'serious' reaction to an apparently not so serious problem!
Never mind.
Peter
Peter
Just wanted to be clear. But it leads to another good question. If there are no obvious dream clues, how can you tell a waking memory from a dreaming memory? Since both are the product of your mind interpeting or creating sensory data, is there really any distinction? Especially when you consider that people re-write their memories all the time to 'improve' them.
[international signal of rapid subject change inserted here]
There are several 'primitive' societies that believe that dreams are as real as waking life. In at least one case, they believe that waking life isn't real but dreams are. Being primitive societies, if their attitudes towards dreams were harmful, one would expect that they would have died out by now. So I have to wonder what they know about dreams that we still haven't stumbled on.
Brent
I too regard dreaming as an uncontrolled form of astral projection. However, dreams as astral projection implies that there is an external dream reality that operates under different rules than physical reality.
If you are only making up stuff to entertain yourself at night, then there is no need to invoke either souls or astral projection. The Freudian explaination of dreams is simpler.
I moved around a lot in the military, and one of the things that I noticed was that there appears to be a geographical influence on the kinds and types of dreams that I have. For example, in upstate NY, I would have several spontaneous LDs a week, and found it easier to project while awake. Its also the only place I have ever dreamed about little grey aliens running around the house.
I hope they were just dreams. I better go off and get x-ray'd for implants.
Dear Brent and William,
In case you missed the message posted under the Dreaming & Awakening topic: You may find the article "OTHER WORLDS: OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES AND LUCID DREAMS" by Lynne Levitan and Stephen LaBerge of interest. You'll find it (in this very realm!) on TLI's website at: http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
You'll also find information on this topic in TLI's FAQ and in "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" that will help you better understand the very stuff that dreams are truly made of. I believe you will find it most fascinating and enlightening.
Clear dreams to all, Keelin
William,
Your references about geographical influence on dreaming are very interesting. I've never noticed my dreams in terms of that, but I have in fact noticed a difference in their content. As for astral projection in relation to dreaming, I think it's very intersting and your idea on it has given me something else to look at. Thanks Brent Keelin, Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the article.