Stephen, I also suffer from insomnia - though it sounds like yours is far worse. Mine is sleep onset; once I get to sleep my sleep is usually good. Actually, though, I do tend to wake up a few times during the night, and occasionally have trouble getting back to sleep again.

Like you, some of my more bizarre experiences have followed periods of sleep deprivation, including some of my lucid dreams. However, I find the quality of my awareness on those occasions is not great - presumably because I am too tired to think clearly either when awake or asleep.

My experiences on those occasions tend to be more "OBE" type phenomena - body distortion, weird buzzing sounds, floating/flying sensations and the like. I especially enjoy the illusion of seeing through my eyelids. :)

Overall, I see sleep deprivation as being quite opposed to lucidity, for me. The more sleep deprived I get the less I can remember my dreams, and the less connected the sleeping and waking realms seem to be. For me, working on my insomnia is the first step towards achieving greater lucidity.

Hi Stephen & Xtrope/Adastra. I too sometimes have a bit of a problem with not getting the sleep I need. However, for me it is not that bad. Most of my problems arise from not making myself go to bed when I think I should (like right now...). However, I've also had problems occasionally when I get in bed and can't get to sleep. The only thing that I've found that always works is the following: If I'm laying on my side (my prefered position), I have to lay on my back. I rest my hands like a dead person's, on my lap, and stretch out my legs and relax my body. I then do a simple breathing meditation that is widely practiced in which the one rule is that you cannot think of anything except the act of deep breathing (with a 3 second pause between every in or out breath). If I stick with it long enough (usually 10-15 minutes at the maximum), it usually puts me to sleep. I don't know if this works with worse cases of insomnia, but it might be worth a try if you haven't already tried it before.

That said, I think I'll be heading for bed!

Lucid Dreams!

Les

Hi Fellow Dreamers,

Although I don't usually have much trouble drifting off to dreamland, there are those few occasions when I panic and think: Yikes! I've forgotten how to fall asleep! Then I try one of two things:

1. I spread my toes as far apart as possible, hold them in that position for a few seconds and then relax them completely. That's usually all it takes (probably because it is such a boring thing to do). However, if that fails, I rely on "The Rock Technique".

2. "The Rock Technique" simply involves holding the very large, smooth rock I keep by my side of the bed. In no time at all, I'm weary enough to fall asleep" yAWn" and the heavy rock (which eventually comes to rest on my stomach) keeps me from falling out of bed.

;-> Keelin

Good evening dreamers,

A personal interest of mine is altered states of conciousness without the use of drugs, which is the main reason I'm interested in lucid dreaming. But one of the most interesting states of consciousness I've encountered is that of the sleep deprived person.

I have personal experience with this phenomenon, but don't mistake this for insomnia. I stay up by force of will, not by psychological or physical disorder. On my first "sleep fast", as I call my bouts of sleeplessness, I fell asleep just prior to my 120 hour target, by accident. As I slept, I had a dream, although it didn't really feel like a dream, more like a vision, or a halucination. It was crystal clear imagery, and I had direct understanding of every element in the dream. I'd heard about lucid dreaming at that point but had never done it, but I'd already planned what I would do if I ever DID became lucid. The dream progressed the way I'd planned to do it when I became lucid: I flew, I played with my physical form, I blew up buildings with big fireballs, etc. The colors were vibrant, I could feel the hot sun and the cool breeze on my skin, and smell the air. My senses were absolutely assailed by stimuli. It was wonderful, however the dream was extremely short because the second I realized it wasn't real life, I realized I'd fallen asleep when I was supposed to be awake. I shot awake, sat up, and wrote down the dream. (then slapped myself for all the dreamsigns I missed)

I've had many other experiences with "sleep fasts" and at the end of them, when I finally go to sleep, I have a much higher frequency of dreams, over longer periods of time. I'm talkin' dreams that last two or three hours near the end (that's an estimation, I've never had the opportunity to test how long they actually last). I usually go to sleep around 6:00 or 7:00 pm and then wake up the next afternoon around the same time. Then I go to the bathroom (a big necessity after sleeping so long!), eat something, maybe check my email, and then go back to bed and sleep till 9:00 or 10:00 am. From there my sleep schedule just clicks right back in. Unfortunately, I never had another dream as clear and truly lucid as my first sleep deprivation induced super-dream, even though I have had real lucid dreams since.

I used to have trouble falling asleep, due to my high intelligence (which tends to work against me a lot: "Ignorance is bliss"), and low control over my mind. Now, I no longer require "tricks" to fall asleep, because of my experiences. Sleep deprivation taught me a great deal about my mind, especially in areas of sleep and dreams, not to mention my subconcious and memory. (Try writing something when you've been awake seventy two hours, it's amazing what comes out) I hope to use my experience in combination with a NovaDreamer to learn even more. I must say, just reading the material on this site has substantially increased my understanding already.

Oh and one more thing: Dr. LaBerge, if you ever need a guinea pig for sleep experiments on, just ship me on over! It is my greatest wish to contribute to the better understanding of the mind, especially in the areas of sleep and dreams.

...Wow, that's a lot of typing! That would suck if I turned out to be dreaming after spending all this time typing! Nope, my watch works, I'm pretty sure I'm not dreaming!

Sorry for typing your eyes off! Quicksilver

(you know, reading over this again, it's more about dreaming than sleep deprivation" oh well, maybe later!)

Doh, forgot something,

For falling asleep when you're having trouble, lie down on your back (in bed, ideally :)), feet about shoulder distance apart and your hands palm-down about a foot away from your sides. Take a few deep breaths, and try and channel your vital energies through your feet. For those unfamiliar with "qi" or "chi" just imagine that you are breathing out of your feet instead of your mouth. Then work your mind up your body, doing the same thing you did with your feet, taking at least three deep breaths for each section. Here's the order you should go in, so no stress slips through the cracks: Toes, feet, lower legs, knees, upper legs, hips, abdominal area, stomach and back, chest (a vital one), arms, shoulders, neck, jaw, back of the head, and do the face last, expecially the forehead since stress tends to concentrate there. Basically (since you won't want to memorize this list), just work from the bottom up and don't miss anything. When you're done that, get in a comfortable position and DON'T MOVE, no matter what. It helps a lot to set a time limit of twenty minutes for yourself to get to sleep. If you don't make it, turn on the lights, listen to some music for five minutes to dull your senses a bit, and try again.

Of course, you could always try my method and don't try to go to sleep at all! Works like a charm if you can pull it off...

Happy sleeping Quicksilver

Hm, I have been an insomniac all my life, not just in falling asleep but also waking up for long periods during the night. After reading these posts, I wonder if somehow, in some strange way, lucidity is related to insomnia? Probably not, but it's something to think about...

I found some of the above comments about seeing with your eyelids closed interesting, as I've only just started experiencing this "phenomena" in the last month or two, and I thought it was just me! It usually happens when I'm lying in bed trying to fall asleep, I'll clearly be able to see across the room, yet then my eyes open for real and I really do see exactly what I thought I was already looking at! Does anyone have any explanation for this?

And, I saw melatonin mentioned above...I take it every night, is there any chance this is interfering with my dream cycles? It's just about the only way I can fall asleep at a decent hour, and I don't mind the sleepiness the next morning, as that's when I nap and have the best success with lucidity. I agree with the comments on Ambien, I never even remembered a dream when I was taking that (some years ago), much less became lucid!

I will definitely try some of these relaxation techniques next time I'm sleepless...thanks!

Michelle

Re. Sleep deprivation, concentration & lucidity

Hi Michelle, Quicksilver, & The Gang!

My experiences with sleep deprivation and lucid dreaming are about like what Adastra said. To quote his earlier post:

"Overall, I see sleep deprivation as being quite opposed to lucidity, for me. The more sleep deprived I get the less I can remember my dreams, and the less connected the sleeping and waking realms seem to be. For me, working on my insomnia is the first step towards achieving greater lucidity."

I only quote that because it is in nearly perfect agreement with my own experiences. The less sleep I have gotten, the less lucid I am when I dream. When I take the time to make sure I have gotten enough sleep, and then usually after waking up in the morning and taking a nap to finish off my night's sleep (as per Dr. LaBerge's research findings), do I have lucid dreams.

This is quite in contrast to Quicksilver's and Stephen B's experiences. Perhaps it is a function of age or constitution. I used to be able to burn the candle at both ends without any trouble. Indeed, there was a time when I enjoyed staying up one or two nights running. But my body can't handle that anymore--it runs down my immune system. And think the mind body connection works such that sleep deprivation also runs down my ability to be aware during dreaming.

BTW, this relates to my latest hypothesis regarding lucid dreaming. I think that lucidity in dreaming may be connected to one's ability to concentrate. According to this hypothesis, the better able one is to concentrate on a single thing, the better able one may be at attaining and maintaining lucidity while dreaming. Such concentration is similar, I think, to the type used in various forms of meditation and concentration exercises (e.g., the candle concentration exercise listed at the back of "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming").

There are several reasons why I think this.

First, from my own experience, I have found that I have a hard time maintaining lucidity in my dreams once I have achieved it. My subjective introspection on this suggests that I lose lucidity when I fail to concentrate on the fact that I am dreaming. Thus, loss of lucidity would be a failure of concentration.

Second, awareness tends to be operationally defined in contemporary cognitive psychology in terms of "attention." Attention, in this sense is deeply connected to the idea of concentration. Lucidity is fundamentally an issue of awareness (of the fact that one is dreaming) so, I think it is, by extension, related to the issue of concentration.

Third, recent research on brain activation during dreaming and waking seems to indicate that a major difference between the two brain/mind states is that a particular area near the front of the brain (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) tends to be less active during dreaming than during waking. Numerous other studies have shown that that same brain area becomes more active the harder a person has to work mentally. That is, the harder a person has to concentrate on a task, the more active that brain area is. Thus, during normal (non-lucid) dreaming, the area we use for hard concentration while awake, seems to be inactive (here I am assuming the data in the above mentioned studies was NOT from lucid dreamers). My hunch is that this particular brain area IS active during LUCID dreaming, though I don't have any data to support this hypothesis. (Dr. LaBerge says that he may soon have data dealing with this question.)

This all relates to the issue of sleep deprivation because, as we all know from personal experience, people tend to function less well when they are sleep deprived. Research on the mental functioning of people who are experimentally sleep deprived shows clearly that their performance on all manner of mental tasks is diminished the longer they go without sleep. (This even includes research looking at specific brain wave patterns associated with specific mental functions, such as catching one's own errors, etc.) And, most of the sorts of tasks that have been used in such research are the type that require use of the aforementioned frontal brain area (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex). So, it is natural to think that the ability to concentrate is diminished the longer you go without sleep. Thus, if my hypothesis is right, it should be more difficult to become and stay lucid the more sleep deprived you are.

However, there may be special cases. Given sufficient physical stamina, and motivation, it may be possible to override such basic physical limitations, at least for short periods of time. So, I am not doubting the validity of Quicksilver's or Stephen B's experiences. Perhaps my 'theory' is too simple. And I do know that sleep deprivation sometimes leads to hallucinatory experiences (both from what I've read of Shamanism, and from my own experiences!). To the extent that hallucinations and dreams are connected (dreams being a daily form of hallucination), sleep deprivation may have something to speak for it. (Then again, the key here is that one be aware of the fact that one is hallucinating or dreaming, otherwise, it is in the one case highly dangerous, or in the other simply non-lucid.)

Anyway, those are just some ideas that came to mind. I'd love to hear what you guys think about it all! (And I apologize in advance if my discussion of brain activation studies is off-putting. It is just that since I read about this stuff I am tempted to incorporate it into my theorizing. Obviously, I could still be completely wrong!)

Best regards, and lucid dreams!

Les

Hi All,

Guess I'll just jump right in. Les, your reply has been quite thought provoking, and once again I think I'll have to leave out some of my thoughts so as to make this a reasonable length. I'll share my thoughts on 2 points here: awareness vs concentration, and how sleep deprivation may ultimately increase one's LD opportunities. Before proceeding, I must again emphasize that I have not studied the literature on this topic, so that if I seem naive, ...well, now you know why :-). These thoughts are my own and I'm an engineer, not a psych researcher.

My first impulse, when Les said that awareness is operationally defined in terms of attention and that attention was related to concentration, was to reply that something seemed wrong with that statement. After giving the matter a bit of thought, I think I've come to agree with Les for the most part, and perhaps more importantly, to recognize the underpinnings of these thoughts, although perhaps not entirely.

It seems to me that awareness, by itself, does not necessarily imply attention to a particular. That is, think of a crowded train station: people milling about, sounds, shops, signs... there are huge amounts of stimuli. We might call this a "field" of stimuli. We might also say that awareness, in the simplest sense, consists in apprehending (or sensing) this field, either in part or in it's entirety.

Accepting this very simple definition of awareness, it follows that attention represents the degree to which selective observation (or witnessing) is occurring. That is, it represents the focusing of awareness upon either an irreducible item or an aggregate within the field, where the term "aggregate" may be scaled up to encompass the entire field.

If we accept these preliminary definitions of awareness and attention, then concentration may be defined as consisting in 3 parts: (1) a modulation of the intensity level of the impression that the stimulus makes upon the consciousness of the observer (the observer's sensory response),(2) a modulation of the resolution level at which aggregation of the stimuli takes place (we might also call this "focus"), and (3) time components relating to the durations of (1) and (2). That is, concentration consists in the ability to sense elements in the field, to select or zoom in on them, and to maintain focus over time, to prevent the mind from wandering.

We can discuss why concentration is required for lucid dreaming elsewhere, and for now I'll say that I agree entirely with Les on this point. I might also add that I agree that sleep deprivation may adversely affect one's ability to concentrate, and so might seem to be opposed to the goal of lucid dreaming. However, there is a simple point that might explain why it seems to work for some: REM rebound.

Sleep deprivation results in REM rebound. REM rebound means more dreams. Further into the sleep cycle, the dreamer is somewhat more restored, so they may have accumulated enough energy to concentrate again, and now they have an abundance of REM to work with. Hmmm...

Guess I'll have to sleep on it,

Scott

Greetings Scott, Lester, and All:

It's very late at night for me, and I had some trouble putting together a lot of the big words in the above posting. However, the last paragraph made very much sense, and I am inclined to agree. The REM rebound I get after sleep deprivation (SD) is extremely intense. Dreams are much longer and ultra-real, allowing for more dreamsigns to occur and more time in which to recognize them in, especially during the later, longer dreams.

But, I also agree that the mind is affected by SD in a negative way. However, I haven't seen any scientific evidence on the relationship between a low waking awareness caused by SD and dreams. Since one of my most memorable lucid dreams came out of a SD experiment, I have to say that there's something to the idea that SD can positively influence your ability to lucid dream. However, I strongly suggest you don't try using it for the purpose of lucid dreaming solely. I use SD much as some use trancendental meditation, to achieve and explore a different state of conciousness. The fact that it affects dreaming (perhaps) positively was just a bonus. There are other healthier ways to have lucid dreams! It's probably much better for your psychological wellbeing if you get a proper amount of sleep.

Oh man, all this talk about sleep and dreams is making my eyes involuntarily close, which is making it very difficult to type!

Goodnight and sweet dreams, Quicksilver

Hi All,

Just thought I'd try to pick up where I left off. Sorry if any of my comments above were confusing. I was trying to limit the length of my post, yet set a complicated stage for this discussion. I'll try to be more clear, yet keep this brief.

Back to the notion of a "field" of awareness, obviously such a field may be internal as well as external. It's a bit harder to describe the contents of an "internal field", but I'd say they could include thoughts, conceptualizations, mental constructs, desires even.

Ah, desires. Intentions. There it is... intent. What is it, exactly? We apprehend an item in the field of possiblity, we focus on that item over a period of time, and perhaps we attain it. Isn't this concentration? That is, mustn't we maintain our focus over time, and isn't that concentration?

If so, then will developing our ability to concentrate also hone our mastery of intent? Hmmm...

Goodnight all,

Scott

Hey Friends!

Like many of you, I will need to keep my response short. (I've been having a hard enough time making time recently to get back on the list!).

Once again, I am very impressed by Scott's ability to dive into complex topics in the study of the mind and come up with very reasonable and insightful ideas. In fact, much of what he came up with in terms of describing "awareness," "attention," and "concentration" is similar to theories of "attention" that I have read. Scott, you should consider taking a course in cognitive psychology or perception some time (if you haven't done so already). I think you would feel right at home! (And I can recommend some introductory books if you are interested.)

Scott's idea that REM rebound, as a consequence of sleep deprivation, might account for an unexpected benefit to lucid dreaming, seems plausible. Especially, as Scott said, if the unusually long REM periods eventually allowed enough rest for a person to regain the ability to concentrate. This last point would seem to be the key, at least in terms of the explanation of the relationship between sleep deprivation and lucid dreaming that I was offering. That is, REM rebound would be of no benefit to lucid dreaming unless one were able to attain and maintain awareness during the dream state. And I think the maintenance issue is really critical here. I know from my own experience, at least, that maintaining lucidity is one of the hardest parts of lucid dreaming. And this maintenance seems to require an act of will, or concentration, which needs mental effort. Such mental effort seems easiest for me when I am well rested.

On the other hand, I'm just starting on the downward slope to mental old age (late 30's) at which point most people start to gradually have more difficulty in terms of mental concentration (as measured in terms of working memory (like RAM in a computer) and various attentional abilities). So perhaps the need for rest is greater for me than for various other people on our list such as Quicksilver or Scott. I know I certainly used to need much less sleep than I do now!

BTW, before anyone older than me takes offense at my comments about aging and cognitive abilities, let me say that it looks like some cognitive abilities are spared by age and others can be rejuvenated through practice. So there is hope for us all! And, who knows? Perhaps developing one's ability to dream lucidly may help in maintaining one's ability to concentrate while awake!

Lucid dreams!

Les

For those of you interested in sleep deprivation, I would enthusiastically recommend the book The Sleep Thieves -- by Stanley Coren. A fascinating look at sleep and the effects of not getting enough of it.

Definitely NOT a sleeper!

A month or so ago I decided to try my own sleep deprivation experiment after reading the following passage in Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep":

"Another preliminary practice sometimes used is to go without sleep for one, three, or even five nights. This exhausts the conventional mind. Traditionally, this is done by a practitioner when the teacher is nearby. After the period of sleeplessness, when the practitioner finally sleeps, the master wakes the practitioner periodically during the night and asks questions: Were you aware? Did you dream? Did you fall into the sleep of ignorance?"

I arranged to take a few days off of work around a weekend, made sure that it would be relatively un-busy, and proceeded to not sleep for 100 hours. I meditated as much as possible to keep a calm environment. I ate small meals every few hours, and drank a lot of liquids, along with very light activity. (A much different approach than numerous unplanned "all-nighters" during college, and work "emergencies", as far as my physical body was concerned)

Then after I got past the 100 hour mark, my wife was standing by to wake me up after I fell asleep. I wanted her to let me sleep for 10-15 minutes and then wake me up. I was determined to get some practice in trying to maintain awareness into the sleep state, and hoped that I could do this several times. But..... I couldn't fall asleep! After a while my wife went on to bed and I took up another approach. I used a timer and set it for about 45 minutes. I did finally fall asleep and woke up to the timer going off. I reset it for another 30 minutes, and fell back asleep.

After the third try, I put on the NovaDreamer mask and set the alarm feature, and also set my timer for another 30 minutes. That's the last I remember until I heard birds chirping the next morning D'oh!!!

I don't know if it was really worth all the time involved. I think I do better with getting good consistent regular sleep patterns. But I still feel like a little sleep deprivation would be useful for practicing WILD's, particularly in developing experience with that critical point between awake/asleep. That critical point generally causes me insomnia more than anything else. But, if I am exhausted, it is easier to let go of the "talk" and get past the critical point. But then sometimes exhaustion also affects my "intention", so I just fall asleep (the sleep of ignorance).

I also concluded that 20 hours would have probably been just as effective as 100, perhaps better. As I was excerpting the quote for the beginning of this post, I noticed the second paragraph, which I somehow seemed to have overlooked when I did my "experiment":

"If you wish to try this, make an arrangement with an experienced practitioner whom you trust. After your sleepless night'it is best to first remain sleepless only for one night'arrange to receive a massage, if possible, to relax the body and open the channels. Then have the practitioner wake you three times during the night and ask the above questions. "

D'oh again!!!!

Hi Keelin, I read the book "The Sleep Thieves" by Stanley Coren that you recommended. I don't think I will be doing any more sleep-deprivation experiments...... Actually the book really helped me with a problem I didn't realize I had so bad, namely carrying a constant sleep debt. Trying to induce lucid dreams has only added to the problem. My dream recall is not very good unless I immediately write down the dream when I wake up. But I always feel tired the next day after a night of writing down dreams. Towards the end of the work week I am so tired I usually don't remember dreams or just lose my motivation to take notes. So, for the past month I have been adjusting my life-style to get a good nights sleep and letting the LD chasing go for a while. Now I have been feeling much more refreshed during the week, and I realize that my dream recall has actually started improving. Although I have known for quite some time that I haven't been getting enough sleep, I didn't realize just what a difference it makes in the quality of a persons life. That book really points it out quite well. It seems so obvious, now. Hmmm, there could be a Nasrudin story here. Nasrudin stays up all night trying to figure out why he feels so sleepy....... Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I was reminded of it last night when they had several stories on the news; an airline crash after the pilot had been flying for 13 hours.... People falling asleep at the wheel, and a sleepy truck driver overturning his rig with a load of 38,000 pounds of black powder around 4:00 AM.

Yawn, Jeff

You can have a sleep debt without even knowing it. A dear friend of mine has sleep apnea; this actually costs him rest because he keeps waking up every few minutes when he's not able to breathe. It's rather scary to watch and listen to as well...I'm dragging him down to the Stanford clinic so they can fix this issue.

At any rate, he's had this problem for years, and he's always tired, has low energy, and falls asleep the minute his head goes horizontal. This past weekend I insisted he stay in my guest room and every night I made him go to bed at midnight, and then I let him sleep till he woke up on his own the next morning.

After only two nights of sleeping fourteen (yep!) hours straight, he felt (and looked) much better than I've seen him for months. He has the same experience when he takes a week of vacation and spends the whole week sleeping...by the end of the week he's got boundless energy.

I've concluded (having slept 12 hours each night myself last weekend) that having a Sleeping Weekend one weekend a month is actually a great idea for those of us who are perenially tired.

Hi Jeff,

Glad you found "The Sleep Thieves" enlightening! And now that we've all become acquainted with our fellow onerionaut Adastra (aka: Xtrope), I can publicly acknowledge him for initially suggesting the book to me ;-> (Thanks, Adastra!)

While reading that book, I began observing the people around me, wondering just how much sleep they were getting on a regular basis. It made me think twice about when I schedule certain appointments and I believe I'm actually more cautious than ever while driving in the afternoon.

It was also interesting to take a closer look at how my own mental abilities begin to falter when I feel "short-sleeped" -- even for one night. When this happens, I find myself slipping more easily than ever into the familiar daydream daze. Not a bad place to be unless it puts oneself or others at risk.

Over the past several months I've also noticed an occasional extreme tiredness -- while dreaming -- and sometimes I'll simply lie down, regardless of the scene, and fall into a dream within the "frame" dream. Since this sensation has become something of a recurring theme, I'm now on the lookout for it as a definitive dream sign. This means that every time I feel extremely tired, I do a reality check. Not surprisingly, I've found that whenever I'm aware enough to do a reality check, I become more aware (lucid!) regardless of whatever realm I happen to be in. And while the most layered or "nested" dream series has only gone four levels deep (ie: a dream with three false awakenings), it's no competition for Ryan Yokely's multiple-layered dream extravaganza! (which he wrote about recently under "Post your Lucid Dreams").

yAWing (in tandem), Keelin

PS: Perhaps when Nasrudin finally does succumb to sleep, he will find himself awaking in his dream -- again and again and again...

I rarely get more than four or five hours of sleep before waking up and then have terrible trouble getting back to sleep. I am a lucid dreamer with insomnia. I've tried everything, so I've had to learn to accept it. How I manage to be a lucid dreamer at all, I'm not sure. One interesting sidelight, though, is that some of my most intense lucid dreams and hypnagogic experiences have followed sleep deprivation. In these instances, I had been awake (wound up and really wired) for 30 to 40 hours. This was not due to drug use. I just get that way. It seems to me that lucidity happened very shortly after falling asleep, although it doesn't seem much like sleep at all. It feels like a powerful "REM build-up" that suddenly erupts. More like hallucinating, but fortunately in bed. So even though sleep deprivation is very unpleasant (for me and everyone around me), at least it has had a few good payoffs.

I'd appreciate any insight and/or theories on this. /Stephen Berlin

Xtrope. Thanks for the follow-up. You are of course correct. Insomnia is not generally conducive to lucidity and not to be recommended. Your testimony of bizarre experiences when moderately sleep deprived, and my wrenchingly intense lucidities when severely deprived, is worthy of our curiosity though. I realize that this topic won't be mouse cheese, but I'd like to hear any theories. I also see some tangential benefit. We don't want people with sleep problems believing that lucidity is beyond their grasp. The fact that you and I are having this discussion in this cyber-sacred spot proves it.

As for "seeing through your eyelids," I really get a kick out of this mental trick, too. Many years before I knew about lucid dreaming, I remember waking up and looking out of the bedroom window into the yard. About ten or fifteen seconds later my eyes "really" opened. I was on my other side facing the closet. I was flabergasted.

I suppose here is a sufficiently remote spot to post a few comments on sleep medication. Like the problem it treats, you are probably better off without it. Nevertheless, it does not entirely rule out lucidity. Here is my experience with the most common crutches. Keep in mind that my brain chemistry is generally accepted as deviant, but by staying in bed and away from people, I manage to be well liked.

Ambien (10 mg tablets). This puts me reliably to sleep for about 2 hours. Then my eyes bug open. It's the "insomnia business of the moment" and admittedly better than nothing in an emergency, but I have never had a lucid dream on ambien. I only resort to this dream-killer when my fuse is short and my looming duties long. About 50 cents each with decent insurance, about $3 without, and two-bucks-a-pop from my Chicago-based Vegas associates.

Restoril (30mg) capsules. With the banishment of my faithful halcion to a life behind the counter because hookers were drugging their johns, murderers made it their excuse, and lawsuits rendered it the politically incorrect KO, Restoril is probably your best bet these days for an aging benzodiazepine. Takes a good hour to act, not particularly reliable in putting me to sleep if really wired, but generally effective. I have had lucid dreams several times with this, but typically only after most of it is already visiting my bladder.

Melatonin. People who can snore on their feet think it's great.

That's it from the guy who has now been awake for 23 hours and still figures he can squeeze in another post or two. /Stephen Berlin

Lester,

So you want us on our backs for some casket practice. Is this the new "dirt-napping" technique for lucid dreaming . . ?

Actually, I've given this one a try many times with a minor variation. I find that sleeping on my back is a position difficult to maintain because it gets uncomfortable. If I corpse-cross my arms, they both go dead. But, when my will can be empowered to prevail, it is very conducive to lucid dreams. My guess is that mild discomfort keeps the mind a bit witted.

My variation of your method of "listening to your breath" is "listening to my heart." When sleep deprived, it pounds along at about 128. I believe the explanation is simple. When I concentrate on my heart throbbing, or you on your breathing, it distracts our attention from our urgency to sleep and the magnification of our problems. My personal experience indicates that the mind needs only about 60 to 90 sequential seconds of this to engage sleep. It is astonishing how difficult that short time can prove to be, no thanks to the overstimulated and undisciplined nature of our jumping-monkey mind.

By the way, before I forget, I did read and enjoy your last posting to False Remembrance. I seem to recall having a reply in the works.

Well I'll be a whooping crane!! I just dozed off and dreamed of my mummy. She was sobbing at my bedside because I couldn't stop coffin. /Stephen Berlin

Since most normal dreaming occurs in our sleep, it makes sense that the better we sleep, the better we should be able to dream.

I used to have difficulty sleeping. It took me a long time to fall asleep. Once asleep, I tossed and turned, unable to find a comfortable position. I often woke up with indigestion. I did not feel rested in the morning but wanted to stay in bed when the alarm went off to rest more. I changed a few things that made a big difference for me:

1. Changing my eating habits solved my indigestion. I used to eat a bowl of cereal or ice cream, or munch on potato chips or sweets, like candy or cookies before going to bed. I stopped that. Now if I am hungry before going to bed, I eat a piece of cheese or some lunchmeat. I switched those high carbohydrate foods to high protein foods. My chronic indigestion went away in less than a week, and has not returned. All those carbs I was gorging myself on sent my metabolism into overdrive. The energy rush produced by all the sugar peaked hours later waking me up around 2:30 AM. I would end up taking Tums and watching Info-mercials until I became sleepy again about an hour later. Protein does not do that to me.

2. Before going to bed I sometimes take 1 or 2 milligrams of Melatonin, a natural human hormone we all produce from our pineal gland. One of its primary functions is to regulate our sleep/wake cycle, to keep it in perfect synch with night and day. Light has strong negative effects on melatonin, the darker it is when we sleep, the better. As we age, we may not produce melatonin as efficiently as when we are younger. When I take it I sleep longer and more soundly. I awake feeling rejuvenated and refreshed. I dream better. There aren't any side effects common to other sleep medications. I do not take it every night.

3. An herbal supplement I occasionally use to help me sleep better is Valerian. I take it in capsule form, but it can also be made as a tea. Sometimes I take Valerian alone or with melatonin. In either case I sleep like a baby and wake up refreshed roaring to go. My sleep is restful and I dream well. Valerian also has no side effects.

These things improved the quality of my sleep. If we all spend on average 1/3 of our lives sleeping, doesn't it make sense we should sleep as well as possible?

Pleasant Dreams. Nick

Dear Lucid Dreamers,

Insomnia seems to be the common problem of us. Sometimes I also have trouble to fall asleep, usually at the sleep onset. Hence, at these times I inevitably become sleep deprived a little. My experience shows it's hard to become lucid or experience WILDs the next night after insomnia/sleep deprivation, despite of the REM rebound phenomenon. At these times my dreams are usually vivid, but the scene and thought discontinuity are present, so it's harder to recall them.

When I can't fall asleep for a long time, I take 200-300 mg of 5-HTP, the all-natural sleep aid (as I don't like benzodiazepines and even more barbiturates). 5-HTP is converted to serotonin (5-HT) in the brain, the inhibitory neurotransmitter which makes one feel sleepy and a little euphoric if 5-HTP is consumed at the daytime. After taking it I usually have more intense and fantastic dreams, with higher frequency of WILDs.

Lucid Dreams, Nicholas

Hey, lucky you, Nicholas! I have taken 5-HTP, and currently take a gram of tryptophan at night. It seems to help with my sleep a little bit, but doesn't seem to make my dreams any more vivid. However, it appears to help me in other ways, so it's worthwhile for me to keep taking it.

Xtrope,

Well personally I don't like Tryptophan as it's 10 times less effective than 5-HTP. I don't take 5-HTP on a regular basis, I only take it when I have to, after being unable to fall asleep for 2 or 3 hours. This may explain that 5-HTP has only partial contribution to such dream intensification phenomenon, the main reason is my brain being very alert and active.

Increasing the tryptophan dosage may also help. Try this if you feel free to experiment with it. The safe dosage tested was found to be up to 5-7 grams, so it would be fine to take 2-3 grams of it.

Lucid Dreams, Nicholas

hey all, this is my first post here.. i have a question that hopefully somebody can help me out with. Ive been pursuing lucid dreaming for a little over a year now and jsut recently purchased a novadreamer. well, actualy i guess i have two questions.

1. With the novadreamer, i've only been able to recall one dream where i saw the cues (as flashing police lights.) Aside from that, nothing. the first few nights, i noticed that the cues were waking me up even with the lowest setting, now i have the light on the highest intensity along with sound; im not waking up to anymore to the cues, but im not remembering them. Now, please read on about to my next question as there is a good chance it has something to do with this problem.

2. 3 months ago i started to work third shift at my present position. At first, i found that my dreaming was much more intense then before, but soon there after, i began to not recall dreams from the night before. This is very odd, although ive had limited success with lucid dreaming (7 i believe in a year,) ive never had any problems recalling dreams. To compound that i am having trouble getting to bed in the morning, and i awaken very easily around 2-3 pm (i usually go to bed somewhere between 10-12 and wake up around 8.) ive taken sleeping pills a coupld times because i simply needed the sleep.

Does anyone have any ideas what kind of effects a third shift sleeping pattern may induce? thanks!

Hi opiate5555,

It is not uncommon for the NovaDreamer to be a little uncomfortable at least the first few times you use it. There's often an adjustment phase of getting used to the mask, light, and sound. It can be compared to starting to wear a new ring or hat when you haven't previously; it can feel a little "odd" at first--like "What's that foreign thing doing there?" until you get used to it, then you are fine. So your initial experiences are pretty much par for the course, nothing to be concerned about.

You mention you have the light set to the highest INTENSITY, and you're still not seeing cues. But what about the duration of the light? If you're not seeing the light in your dreams, you may need to increase the CUE LENGTH somewhat (so it's long enough that you have a better chance of seeing it, but not so long that it starts interfering with the rest of what's going on in your dream once you've gotten lucid). The ideal cue length will vary from person to person. I would recommend trying 2 seconds longer than whatever you're using now to start out with, assuming you're not presently at max (unlikely!). Cue frequency and sound loudness are other variables we may want to consider adjusting at some point, but not yet. It is generally best to adjust only one variable at a time so you can have a more clear estimation of its impact. If you're not remembering at least one dream per night, however, that MUST come first. If you're not remembering your dreams, obviously you can't be remembering cues.

Another very valuable point to consider is whether you are carefully following the COURSE IN LUCID DREAMING that came with you NovaDreamer. Doing the daytime practices described in the CLD, and training your mind to habitually question whether lights you see could be the NovaDreamer and you could be dreaming will greatly enhance your night time practice.

Having trouble sleeping is not conducive to lucid dreaming. Quite the contrary. Being rested, relaxed, and focused on the task at hand (LDing) is the ideal situation. If you sleep better and feel more relaxed on the weekends (or whenever your days off are), I would recommend focusing your efforts during those times initially (especially the use of the Nova, once your dream recall is where it needs to be), until you get more used to your new schedule or get a more comfortable schedule.

However, if you're waking up at 2-3 pm anyway, you might use that awake time to your advantage, doing mental practices related to lucid dreaming. It is well documented that a period of wakefulness before resuming sleep greatly enhances the likelihood of having a lucid dream. In a study we did at the Lucidity Institute about 5 or 6 years ago, I think we found lucid dreams were about 11 or 12 times more likely during a morning "nap." I believe that article is still available on lucidity.com. You might check it out, if you haven't already. It sounds like the relaxation techniques referenced in the CLD and described in EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING, which also came with your NovaDreamer, could be especially helpful to you to start out with. Check out pages 53 to 56 in EWLD (Progressive Relaxation and Sixty-One-Point relaxation). They are likely to help with both getting back to sleep (and perhaps eliminating the sleeping pills), and increasing your chances of having lucid dreams.

My most important advice: try not to pressure yourself too much about any of this or take it too seriously, especially while you're trying to adjust to a new sleep schedule. Go easy on yourself. Getting stressed out or worried is counter-productive in lucid dreaming (and most everything else in life??! ;) ). Be as diligent as you can in carefully following the CLD and re-establishing your dream recall, but make cultivating greater relaxation and trust that things will unfold in the proper timing if you've done the best you can the top priority. Thinking positively is excellent, too--especially having a clear plan of what you want to do when you get lucid. But here again, try not to get too attached to the results. The lucid dreams will last longer if you can stay calm, in sort of a "witness" mode.

Hang in there!!! And by all means please continue to post here if you need more help along the way. Nibbana

Hi Opiate,

Try taking Melatonin before going to bed to help adjust your sleep cycle. Also make your room as dark as possible. Some heavy drapes might be in order.

Nathen

first off thank you both for your responses... i had tried melatonin a few months ago, and it actually lessened my dream awareness, and gave me slight headaches. but i recently decided to try again. WOW! i changed my dosage. i was taking far below the recommended dosage of .75- 1.5 mg. ( about .15 mg) i took 2 tablets, about .66 mg and let me tell you. I expirienced dream vividness that ive been missing these last few months, i slept soundly, if i did wake up it was after REM periods, and i had no trouble getting back to sleep. i even noticed the queues as lightning in one dream, and did a few reality checks, but for whatever reason none of which told me i was dreaming.. my mind seems to have the ability to convince me that i am not dreaming. it is very counterproductive! :) another question i have is the negative effects of melatonin. are there any? thanks a bunch!

Opiate et al.:

Whoa! First off, call me old fashioned, but I hadn't a clue you could buy melatonin. Wow! Times sure have advanced. My next question is can you buy seratonin? Probably not. My understanding is that the brain converts melatonin into seratonin somewhere an hour or two after you start sleeping, and that the rewiring of the synapses occurs in that condition. Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts/experiences. Anyway, I ran out and bought a bottle, and tried half a 3 mg pill. The effects on the dream state were dramatic. No lucidity, but the dreams were much more vivid and I could remember 3 or 4 times as much as I usually do. This can only be good news. I too am curious if there are any known negative side effects. Have also been fiddling with tapes and cd's but am curious whether anyone has come across subliminal recordings. Subliminal tapes have always had a strong influence on me, and if the subconcious can be programmed to get you lucid, that would be a major step.

Dear Doug, if you haven't already, try the CD I described on another thread recently:

Brainwave Mind Voyages: Series 1: Relaxation & Trance Induction: The Lucid Dreaming Version

from http://go.to/mindvoyages

It worked for me

Joan