Hi Friends!

Has anyone out there got anything to say about dream "guides"?

I had an interesting lucid dream this morning. Prior to taking a nap, I carefully went over my intentions of what to do when the NovaDreamer cue came. Part of the intention was to ask a particular question in the lucid dream, and to wake up after I had gotten the answer in order to write it down. When the NovaDreamer flashed, I became lucid and asked the question. As I was getting my answer, a person was directing my attention to different things in the dream scene (i.e., he was acting as my "guide"). After I felt I had gotten a sufficient answer, I tried flying around, and passing through a wall. But I got caught in the middle of the wall, which felt like being in deep water, and felt some fear before managing to break through to the other side. At this point, in hindsight, it is clear that I was losing lucidity. Just at that moment, however, an authoritative voice said "Time's up, Lester!" and nudged me in the ribs, thus waking me up. It surprised me so much, I wondered if my father was there in the room doing it! But of course, when I got up, nobody was in the room with me (and my dad lives a 5 hour drive away). Interestingly, this helped me do what I had intended, which was to wake up and record my dream after I had gotten an answer to my question. If the "guide" hadn't told me my time was up and nudged me, I would likely have dreamt on nonlucidly and forgotten the answer I had gotten.

Does anyone have similar experiences to share?

Best regards,

Les

Hi Les,

I posted a similar experience under "dreams of transcendence". I love the idea of guidance and definately worth further exploring.

Frederick

Fellow Dreamers,

I have also had the experience of a dream guide. Since I started my very first journal there have been two recurring dream characters that have guided me through my dreaming experiences. It was not until I kept a journal that I noticed their presence. The guides are two women and I usually refer to them as "the sisters". I did not notice them at first because of all the different forms they took. From dream to dream, their age, race, physical appearance, etc. changes. Looking back on my journals later I realized that the two women were a recurrent motif.

My experiences with the sisters have been frequent and illuminating. I only receive guidance from them in an indirect manner. There are no instant revelations or direct messages.

Whether dreaming lucidly or non-lucidly, my guides appear at least once a week and usually several times a week.

Chad

p.s. I have recently discovered that there is an Austrailian aboriginal myth about two sisters who lived in the Dreamtime.

Hi, Fellow Dreamers I also found guides in my dream: Once i found myself dressed as some sort of indian. I aksed him a question and he/me gave me an answer. Bruce Lee was once in my lucid dream and answered my question after he lectured me about Immunology (think about the "self deffence" motif of the immune system and kong-fu). as aboriginal do: I try to learn the names of the characters in my dream. sometimes I seccede. One character is an old woman.

(hi. I am new to this forum)

I have had many excursions with the presence of a dream guide. Most of these were during repeated attempts of vertical flight. Many times I was assisted and even hoisted upwards by these guides. Mostly never seeing them but sometimes feeling their hands beneath my feet lifting me up through the skies and traveling through the stars to distant worlds. Many times hearing them speak from behind my shoulder during the trip, and sometimes the guides voice would fill the whole air around me.

In many of these experiences I was being given information that was foreign to me as if in a "teacher/ student" relationship. Come to think of it, I just now realized that I have never asked any questions when in the presence of these beings but rather just experience their words and silently take in and listen. Then try my best to retain as much as possible in my thoughts while making the transition back to my body. This is kind of funny to me because usually when I enter the dreamstate aware, I ask all kinds of questions to the first person I see, trying to define the reality of the scene that I am visiting. I try to grab as much information as possible from any dream being that I meet. Where am I, What is the name of this place or planet, what is the year, do you know about earth people, etc etc. (These types of questions seem silly but believe it or not I have learned quite a bit from doing this. Their answers are quite surprising) But when I am in the presence of the guys that "lift me up" they seem to be running the show and I am completely attentive to what they are presenting before my eyes.

I was once told the importance of vertical travel in the dreamstate. In fact it was told to me that vertical flight was of primary concern for gathering new knowledge. To travel in an upwards direction rather that the typical horizontal gliding flight is of utmost importance for those seeking their "highest" and purest experience.

I was told that when one flies upwards they are in fact reaching for faster and higher vibratory rates of cohesion. That once a higher rate or plane is ventured into, ones own astral vibratory rate then co-vibrates with the rate of the plane attained, and thus becomes basically "infused" with the knowledge of that level attained. And once gained, it will never be lost, as it is what you have become.

Through my continued experiments in this theory of vertical travel, I have witnessed great heaven like cities, and many very incredible deep space travels and teachings. I also once discovered a breathtaking city of golden light that I was able to view from a distance, but not allowed to enter as I surprisingly encountered what seemed to be some type of an invisible force field. I soon realized that this particular place would not allow my rate of frequency to flow into it, thus I was being kept floating outside because of the incompatibility of my own vibratory makeup. That was a quite humbling experience. I wanted in the celebration but didn't have an invitation :)

My friends, the dimensions seem to be teaming with life. Life with which we can interact safely within our own being. We have a great vehicle for experimentation (the dreamstate and it's body) that has the potential to help us realize a new and fantastic frontier forever changing the way that we view the possibilities of a singular earthly existence. I believe we have the key to the "quantum leap" talked of in physics that must be ventured towards with sincerity, awe, and then openly shared.

I am very grateful that this forum is available for us to explore and define this remarkable "phenomena". May we chart these waters bravely and boldly, always knowing that we are part of a great miracle waiting to be explored. And the adventure has always been closer to us than our own heart beat!

Thank you all!!!!

P.S. PLEASE let me know of your success and realizations found in your vertical flight technique experiences. There is Gold up there in them there hills! ...and even more above them!

Hope I've given someone some of what I have unearthed!

Peace to you all!

angstrom,im glad to hear about the experience you had with flying.that was a theory of mine but thanks to you it is proven.you are the first person that ive heard that could fly that high.im sure you are very intelligent and clever.ive had an experience were i accidently brought someone back to this world,so maybe we should combine our gifts!

Jeff. This idea of 'levels of vibration' is a recurring theme in many mystical traditions - from kundalini yoga's ascent through the chakras to Gurdjieff's hydrogens to the Khaballah's tree of life - and many others. Whether or not we cleave to one paradigm or another, it seems there is something inate in our minds which either structures our inner experience in this way, or recognises a pre-existing structure (what's the difference?).

Having been involved, consecutively, with group activities focussing on one or other of these 'systems', I am attracted to the LD mode of exploration largely because of its non-heirarchical nature. The trouble with following a prescribed system is that they inevitably create a 'ladder' of attainment upon which participants either place themselves or wonder where they and others are placed. Also inevitably, seniority in these groups becomes measured by length of membership

• the Curates and Cardinals syndrome.

In contrast, Stephen LeBerge et al seem to be creating a scientifically underwritten study of the LD 'environment' which, in part at least, is integral with all mystical traditions. The open-ended nature of this study, and the open-hearted sharing of experience by participants side-steps the trap of the 'ladder' systems which, through sheer longevity, have accumulated rigid shells impeding their original missions.

Maybe its happening now simply because it couldn't happen before?

Anyway, long may it prosper :-)

Kind regards

Alan T

Alan T,

Your remarks concerning hierarchies lead me to suspect that you are a teen-ager masquerading as an adult on the internet. s

Seriously though, your reported dream, a while ago, of crashing through ceilings could be viewed as vertical flying. After that dream, you commented that you wished that you had continued the upward ascent. I wonder where it would have taken you.

I know that when I have flown in dreams, once I got above trees or buildings, my flying has tended to be horizontal, just as Jeff was saying. Trying vertical flying sounds like a good idea. Reminds me of an imagery I used to use of being in a bubble of light which expanded to include the room I was in, the building, the city, the country, the continent, earth, solar system, galaxy, galaxy group, universe....

Thanks for drawing my attention to Jeff's letter.

Mary

Mary,

While it's true that I am sixtyteen in many ways, my remarks arise from lengthy adult experience in esoteric or occult groups, and were intended as a critique of group ethos and structure, not the subject of study.

A quick search of the available LD/astral projection/OBE/spirit guide sites will reveal the syndrome I referred to in operation. Note the use of Old English (Gothic) typefaces; the spooky background art; the bad illustrations of bearded sages and melting Madonnas, and the use of 'purple' prose. All these are intended to link the subject of study to vestigial mystical traditions which still attract young people of a certain disposition.

Now note the unselective nature of presentation, where LD phenomena mingle colourfully but chaotically with telekinesis, telepathy, black magic and cat auras. Then read a few posts on forums. I'm sure you will get the same impression as I: that all this is the usual catch-all marketing exercise aimed at recruiting susceptible people to the site. From such a contact, it is but a short step to joining a cult and becoming emeshed in one or another of the hierarchies I mentioned. That's fine by me, but having been through a few cults myself, I recommend the alternative offered by the Lucidity Institute's science-based approach.

Once again, I congratulate Stephen et al for risking the possible academic stigma arising from this speciality, and reiterate that the best means of exploring this very real experiential environment is by use of the scientific method.

There may be, as you say, autonomous beings existing on higher vibrational levels, 'cities of light', 'mystery schools', and the rest. But the way to find out, in my view, is not through wishing it true, but by detaching from all delusions and cleaving (religiously :-)) to the discipline of the repeatable experiment.

BTW If you backtrack to my 'crashing through ceilings' LD, you'll find I wished I had stayed with, and got to know, the character who clung on to me.

Kind regards

Alan T

Alan T,

My intention is not to disillusion you, but I can tell you from personal experience that the scientific and the dream communities have about as much pride and elitism as any other organization. (This statement is NOT a reflection on Stephen. He is truly one of my all-time favorite people, and one of the most helpful and wise people I know as well.) The reason I write is to encourage you not to get too caught up in the politics of organizations and the power struggles that naturally come up in them, frail (and often insecure) human creatures that we all are. Organizations can serve many valuable purposes as well, especially if the more insightful members do not get frustrated with the struggles and pull away! The tone of your post reminds me of when I was anti-Catholic. It is in our best interest to remember that we're all just human beings hobbling along, trying to do the best we can. Having associations and affiliations seems to me a fairly standard piece of being human. There is a very strong tendency for every "me" to want to feel that what I am doing is the best thing to do, and we typically do receive many opportunites to learn about new facets of our being from such experiences. However, we often get challenged/theatened by other people's positions/affiliations/biases instead of just accepting that they must be serving them somehow in the same way our affiliations are serving us (if only by showing us/them what we need to let go of). One size does not fit all! I think the important thing to remember is that, in the end, none of those differences make a difference. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Our affiliations (including science or dreams), thoughts, attachments are not our essence. They are just our way of trying to make it through the phenomenal world where we suffer the illusion of seperation. I would encourage you to perhaps be a bit more tolerant and compassionate as pushing away/judging the darkness in others and ourselves only gives it more power. Sorry for rambling; I'm feeling in a bit of a hurry. I hope you will recognize my good intentions in all this. Perhaps sharing the following poem by Hafiz will do better than I am:

I Have Learned So Much

I Have Learned So much from God That I can no longer Call Myself

A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, A Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of itself With me

That I can no longer call myself A man, a woman, an angel, Or even pure Soul.

Love has Befriended Hafiz so completely It has turned to ash And freed Me

Of every concept and image My mind has ever know.

Leslie,

I love you. Will you marry me? ;)

Seriously though, this forum is truly remarkable for its intelligence and sincerity in helping others, and you all give and share so much.

Thank you all for being, Marc

Leslie,

Honestly, I didn't mean to step on any toes, only to explain to Mary what I meant about the hierarchical systems which can accumulate around this experiential environment.

The human mind is the dodgiest place on earth, and people have been making maps of it since we all lived in caves - and convincing others that their map was true. Those that were convinced lived out their lives, then died. None have reported back - unless you believe the believers in the same map.

It could be well argued that all the succesive maps acted as a necessary binding, stabilising influence on early cultures (and how can we prove now that they didn't?) but my feeling is that, unlike our ancestors, we now have an opportunity to explore whatever reality has always existed behind the myths.

Science is nor separate from the historical quest for knowledge, it just has better tools and methods. And after all, if you believe that everything is 'meant' to happen - well, science has certainly happened s.

I agree with you that "One size does not fit all" (and have said that whatever others believe is okay by me), but must disagree when you say, "in the end, none of these differences make a difference".

We are here to make a difference. And there are many differences which urgently need to be made - in medicine, in environmental control, in psychiatry, in social services, in economics, and other arenas. If you prefer to step back from these arenas and leave them to others, that's alright by me.

As you quoted Hafiz, I take the liberty of doing the same - by opening the book (in traditional manner) at random. and reading what it reveals:

"On the beloved's path I laid my face, but she did not pass by.

I hoped for a hundred kindnesses, yet she gave me not one glance.

Oh Lord preserve her from the sighs of those against whom she has no protection.

The hard stone has no malice against the rain-drops of our tears.

Like the sputtering candle I wanted to die at her feet, but she passed by like the morning breeze.

Oh soul, where is the person who has not made a shield against the wound of your arrow?

Last night, my lamenting kept everyone awake, but she did not raise her head from her pillow.

Sweetheart, my heart's wings and feathers are consumed, yet my head is still filled with love's crude madness.

Hafiz! Your sweet love story is so alluring that none heard it that did not prefer pleasure more."

(Octagon Press Edition: P.271, Ode 131. I designed the jacket! s)

Kind regards

Alan T.

Dear Alan, Nibbana, Marc and fellow oneironauts

Wow! What a terrific discussion. Strikes me and my life's story in many ways. I'm not sure, if I understood your poetic "battle". Instead of commenting too much, I'd rather like to raise some questions (maybe they are comments, too...) :

@Marc:

Will you NOT seduce MY Nibbana, please!!

@Alan:

Where am I to read about Gurdjieff's hydrogens?

"Maybe its happening now simply because it couldn't happen before?"

Yes. Seems, that science grasps for claims of religion these days, because it now has the tools to do so. I'm just devouring the new book by Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe". Once finished, I'm going to write a review in LI-Forum. PSI - evidence and its implications seem to open doors to a more differentiated look on religious ("esoteric") experience. My questions are: How do we interpret our experiences in the face of scientific proof? How can we improve and enrich our experience by including science findings?

"That's fine by me, but having been through a few cults myself, I recommend the alternative offered by the Lucidity Institute's science-based approach."

Had I not been in this "cults", I couldn't fully appreciate science based approaches, because I wouldn't have made the experiences, that drive me to working on LD and self - development. (Awful English, isn't it?) Can "flawed" semantic frames (beliefs, theories) produce "correct" experiences? If not, how do we get closer to truth?

"But the way to find out, in my view, is not through wishing it true, but by detaching from all delusions and cleaving (religiously :-)) to the discipline of the repeatable experiment."

Wishing seems to be an effective way to create new experiences, maybe because it is so emotional. How may scientific based wishes feel like? You may travel to the holy cities of light every night. How do you prove you've been there? Is there a way to create a kind of scientific consent concerning this realms maps?

@Nibbana:

Again: Feels good to know, your still alive.

"...that the scientific and the dream communities have about as much pride and elitism as any other organisation."

Strike! I can only speak for myself. I've just discovered, I'm tending to feel part of an elite, that is called lucid dreamers. My situation is, that I find it hard to talk about this subject with people, who have no experience in this. Even with my best friends! But there has been a dream... ... a dream to show me, that my friends and myself are searching for the same secret treasure, although the may not be interested in what I find on my way, in what I claim to be important. Thus I've made another trail to share dreaming and daytime experiences in deep. In spite of this discovery I'm more likely to support Alan's point of view, because in my eyes there is less elitism and more tolerance in this forum, than in most of all kind of groups I've encountered so far. I forgot to raise the question. Hm.

"Having associations and affiliations seems to me a fairly standard piece of being human."

I agree. But I've often encountered hindrances while being in spiritual groups. I want to learn. But I'm not willing to subject to a (spiritual) teacher, specially when I think, he or she talks and thinks and does nonsense and doesn't subject to criticism himself. Maybe there are teachers, able to be students. But so far I haven't met these. Or couldn't see them. I very like to be "associated" to you and the fellow oneironauts at LI. And I very like to go my own way these days, relatively free from any hierarchical, established "schooling". Where is my teacher?

@Alan:

"Those that were convinced lived out their lives, then died. None have reported back - unless you believe the believers in the same map."

Science seems to support proof, that there is a disembodied life between physical lives of some individuals (Ian Stevenson 1997). But I'm not sure, if we can state anything about the nature of disembodied guides from the scientific point of view. There seems to be nothing repeatable in sight concerning NDE and reincarnation. All proofs, that Stevenson ( and R.A.Moody, K'bler -Ross, Morse, et al) supplies are mandatory anecdotal. There seems to be a tradition of creating "experimental birthmarks" in some corners of the world, trying to detect, when and in whom a dead person is reincarnated. But I can't imagine a moral scientist to use such techniques. How can anyone design a controlled experimental situation concerning reincarnation? Has reincarnation to stay a subject of mere belief?

"...but my feeling is that, unlike our ancestors, we now have an opportunity to explore whatever reality has always existed behind the myths."

I agree. No question.

@Alan and Nibbana:

"in the end, none of these differences make a difference".

A difficult subject. Hope to find the right words, because it seems, that the greater part of human experience cannot be expressed in words. Nibbana may be right in using a paradox wording. If it is, that he relates to the highest levels of unifying mystical experience (being) in writing "in the end", he is right. (I've only incidental had a light taste, what this levels may be, in moments of deepest love and peace). In spite of admiring the findings of mystics all around the world, that open us doors into the deep understanding of human condition, I appreciate the dualistic side of being as enjoyable. It's not always too bad down on earth. There is more than one facet to love, as the Alan's random poem seems to sing. Eros' arrows are singing through the wind of change, while love still holds the arch in the centre of lives cyclone. That's my poem for today. I certainly agree with Alan, that we are here to make a difference. And I suspect, Nibbana agrees, too. Otherwise he hadn't posted anything. But the difference seems to be to make no difference. That is to regard the essential unity of me and my neighbour. No human rights would have been proclaimed without regarding that we are a unity of individuals. Only because someone began to claim all men as essentially indifferent, this kind of justice has been born, that intends to protect every individual in his own different being. That is the core of tolerance in my eyes.

Can we make a difference by making no difference?

Can I stop writing and rest my weary head?

Did I succeed in not commenting, but raising questions?

Can I be dreaming right now?

Yours?

Ralf?

?

Ralf,

Thank you for a thoughtful post which touches on subjects close to my heart.

Gurdjieff's hydrogens are to be found in his book "All and Everything" - which is indigestible. I recommend J G Bennett's "Witness" as a far more readable alternative. I hasten to add that I do not advocate this system in any way s.

Naturally I am aware that my experience in esoteric systems has been a major influence on my present condition as you say, and acknowledge freely that if things had been different I would be someone else. I'm sure you will agree. The question to answer, it seems to me, is why do some consider that my condition is an incorrect outcome of such experience? Having actually been punched out by an exponent of universal love, I know whereof I speak s.

I applaud the Lucidity Institute for approaching impartially the subject of inner exploration: a subject which has hitherto been the province of traditions which prescribe what the explorer will find. It's an old joke that people under Freudian analysis have Freudian symptoms, and those under Jungian analysis have Jungian ones. Likewise, those who practice any other system will exhibit the appropriate symptoms. All this, as I have said, is okay by me - but I reserve the right to observe it.

Where LD (as presented here) differs is that what is presented is only the means to explore, not a prescription of what you should find. This is the essence of the scientific approach. We discuss our findings openly, and support each other without referring to a fixed catalogue of interpretations.

My point about the repeatable experiment was intended to refer both to Stephen LaBerge's studies, and to our personal explorations. For example. I used to find the noises and paralysis etc of WILDs alarming, but now welcome them as a prelude to a delightful spell in LD. Also, I used to go apeshit with euphoria and bounce all over the place, but now, through experience and experiment, I am more thoughtful and constructive. As for Stephen's work, it would be wonderful if sometime soon he could use fMRI to record and compare brain activity in normal dream state and LD state. I am aware of the colossal cost of such a study, but maybe a sponsor will come along? And surely the findings might shed some light on the mysterious interface between "unconscious" and conscious minds which make LD possible. Such findings would be a valuable addition to cognitive, and other research also.

"How do you prove you've been there'? I don't see that as being our concern. Most members of this forum know the unique experience of LD, and are quite accustomed to other people not understanding what it's like. Well, what is it like? You can describe it in the usual terms, but usually receive incomprehension in return. The important thing here is that the experience itself is of such a definite, unmistakable nature that the incomprehension of others is of little significance. It would be nice if more people were to discover it, and perhaps more will in the future, but meanwhile it's enough for us to be able to explore it ourselves.

The question here is why shouldn't each exploration be unique? Our bodies and minds are each unique, so I don't see why we should all expect to jump through the same hoops on our way to the great lion tamer. Most of all, our LD experience is personal ("closer to you than your jugular vein', as Rumi said) and we all know indisputably that the people and environments we encounter in LD arise from ourselves - to reveal that ourselves are very mysterious entities indeed. It is simultaneously a humbling and empowering activity.

As for hierarchies and systems, if the Hafiz ode quoted by Nibbana is read without assumptions, I'll be damned if it doesn't agree with me:

"Love has befriended Hafiz so completely It has turned to ash and freed me Of every concept and image My mind has ever known'

Ralf: Sorry about Nibbana. :)

& Alan:

"In spite of this discovery I'm more likely to support Alan's point of view, because in my eyes there is less elitism and more tolerance in this forum, than in most of all kind of groups I've encountered so far."

I think you've nailed it here; the key is true tolerance. I understood Nibbana to mean that the danger of proposing a "scientific" philosophy is one in which scientism takes over. That is, the application of scientific results to create broad-reaching generalizations in more complex scenarios. While philosophy and science must begin interacting once again (and stop their separate bashings of each other), it is very dangerous to say that we've learned nothing without science, and Western culture is getting very close to adopting this "religion of science" called scientism. These ideas are badly paraphrased from a very interesting book called The Reality Illusion by Ralph Strauch. Perhaps a good example of what I'm talking about comes from my studies of consciousness in which a fundamental gap exists between perception and introspection. Since all science is based on perception (from the electron microscope to the Hubble telescope), it has very little it can say about consciousness, which we can examine only through introspection. We have knowledge of consciousness only through a very strange assurance, that we ARE CONSCIOUS! Therefore, while the information about neurobiology is extremely valuable, it has little to say about our experience. Similarly, lucid dreaming experiments can be performed individually, observations can be made, but these are all done in an introspective manner. There is no scientific way for me to observe your dreams, Alan, even if I had a complete knowledge of your neural pathways and chemistry! (If you have a way, you must tell me!)

My 2 cents, Marc

Marc,

I think it might be useful to explain that my background is as an advertising creative: I have always made a living by creating words and images that are specifically designed to attract the attention and remain in the memory.

Of late, I have used my experience in this field to combat public misperceptions about science, particularly brain science. The first thing I found out was that scientists are useless communicators - they have absolutely no idea how weird and ivory-towerish they seem to the general public. Nevertheless the things that they discover are of potentially enormous benefit to humanity.

My current job involves explaining what neuroscience is doing in terms that everyone can understand, and have found that the exercise is appreciated by scientists ond non-scientists alike. So while I agree with your advocacy of tolerance, I believe translation to be more effective. It's like acting as a go-between for two tribes sharing no common language.

There's no doubt that the public fear of 'scientism' is directly the fault of the scientists

• but only because their hitherto priestly attitude to their craft forbade the employent of marketing experts s.

As for your "broad-reaching generalizations in more complex scenarios", all the scientists I know would rather die than make any kind of generalisation whatever. Their professional reputations depend entirely upon them not doing so.

And as for "neurobiology is extremely valuable, it has little to say about our experience", you seem to overlook the major wave of cognitive neuroscience research now being generously funded by the most reputable institutions.

There is no doubt that we are in the dark ages of brain science right now, and that every discovery in this field only reveals vaster territoties to explore. But it is, undeniably, a new way of approaching the mysteries that, in all of human history, have not been conclusively defined.

Exchanging belief for knowledge seems to me to be a good trade.

And while it is true that you cannot observe my dreams now, who knows what might be possible in the future?

Kind regards

Alan T.

Alan and Marc, Who says that one can't observe anothers dream? It is my experience that one can in fact do so though I must admit I have not done this recently; I do have witnesses to this fact. I think much of what is possible in the dream world is so unbelievable to the average mind that the thought that it is impossible limits us. I realize there is much debate as to whether these things are simply synchronicity etc. Dream guides in my oppinion could very well be simply a construct of ones own thought, but in the same token they could be other people who are able to share in ones dream. As I am righting this, I realize that many people will think, boy is this guy off of his rocker and a few will think there may be some truth to this. In reality, I don't think it really matters. What I think matters is keeping onself open to possibility so that one does not exclude its possibility. To me, its similar to flying in a dream. The first few times I became aware that I was in a dream I wanted to fly. I knew theoretically that it was possible, but still I could not fly. I found a pool and began to jump up and down, higher and higher, until I was leaping out of the earths orbit. I had no real control though and I was not really flying, just leaping very high. Later, I practiced on a trampoline and still later I became fluent at simply walking willing myself to float in any direction. While my mind knew that I could fly in a dream it was still hard to convince it that it could do so. I had to employ tricks. If one can not think of something as a possibility in this waking state, how is one to over come the minds limitations that are set on the dreaming world? If one cannot fathom a possibility how can it be realized. If no one had fathomed of flight or going to the moon, would it of happened? I have my own thoughts as to exactly what is happening when one enters anothers dream, but do I accept this as the only possible reason? The answer is no, one must always keep open to different potential solutions to a problem less the solution becomes the problem in finding out what is really happening. One other thing, it takes some true guts for someone to post something that would make them out to look insane or a fool to say the least.Fortunately for myself, I lack true guts so I hope I will not banned from posting here.I admit to being unorthodox, but at the very least I may stimulate some others who are contemplating in these other area's to think in a different manner and perhaps do or try something thats never been done and thus learn something new and novel for themselves. All experience is valid as we learn from our failures as much as from our successes. Why limit the mind anymore than it already is? Ahh, while I am on an asking question frenzy, has any research been done into the lucid dreams of people who are blind at birth? Of course I realize that these thoughtss are not new, but I am expressing them none the less. Always try to percieve and let go, Eric

Eric,

I work every day in a brain research institute (as a marketing/fundraising director), and am usually surrounded by psychiatrists. I was a bit nervous about this at first, but quickly came to understand that they are as baffled about the mind as you or me. I now take a semi-perverse pleasure in chatting to them about my LD doings. So fear not about expressing your experience on these forums. Here we have some of the most sensible people in the world discussing such things, and every one of us acknowledges both the reality of our experiences and the central mystery of them.

Thank you for the Lacota Quest post. I was not familiar with it. Is that the Lacota branch of the Sioux nation? I always take pleasure in finding another parallel with 'pagan' mystical traditions and orthodox christian ones - such as the much-imaged temptation of St Anthony. Austerities have always seemed to be a means of obtaining visions of one kind or another. Personally, being a lover of comfort, I prefer LD s.

I hope you don't mind me asking a silly question (and please believe that I am sincere in asking it), but wasn't it a lot of trouble to go to to foresee a relatively harmless car crash?

Kind regards

Alan T.

Alan, If the purpose was to see a car crash that was relatively harmless then I would agree with you that it was silly indeed and a huge monumental waste of time and effort. The car crash was symbolic even though it actually happened, or at least that is my belief. Not only was it symbolic though, it had a great effect not only on me, but on the people that I told the vision to. If you have a shadow of a doubt about something that is possible, but not generally believed by the masses such a vision gives strength to the belief so that it is not a belief anymore, but instead a personal fact; albeit, not completly understood. Many people of the Lakota(Sioux) path in that medicine circle would never have devoted the time and effort to do that ceremony if they did not have some proof. My vision supplied some validity and proof to their own faith as well as mine. It is not always what the vision is about, but what the vision accomplishes that is important. Not to worry, I had many other visions during that vision quest and other vision quests, sundances, etc that were of a more personal and mindboggling nature that elevated ones sense of wellbeing to a temporary state of emotional bliss beyond words and such, but again, that is not the main goal of these visions either. A vision gives unique insights to the person and the people to which they are given and to simply look at a vision as a vision and not see the results of that vision is to miss the point altogether. Many times, one has a vision, but is not ready for it, thus when one comes out of that visionary state of mind one finds that one has a black or blank spot of memory. When the time is right, it is believed that one will remember the vision in full. Still, the primary reason behind all lakota ceremonies is simply to grow in harmony with all that there is, to grow in harmony with oneself. One quickly finds on a vision quest that ones worse enemy in life is oneself and ones best friend is also oneself. You and you alone have the power to do or not do something for yourself. The way you percieve the world and your place in it is your choice, but too often it is subconscious in nature and the lower mind controls the higher mind. Some people have a saying, to fly as high as an eagle and to crawl as low as a worm...this means to see that one is as important as anything else and just as unimportant as well. When one is capable of never being alone and not being dependent on anyone else being there to satisfy ones feeling or understanding that one is not alone one has begun to understand the relation of all things to another in a form of associative thoughts which enables one to be free from the bonds that binds us to others and still feel that one is never trully alone or seperate. To feel that one simply is and can do or not do is a great feeling. Too often one feels a need for others to justify ones being when the only justification that is needed is the fact that you exist. Its very hard to put in words what is trully gained from a vision quest and such ceremonies and it is an oversight to believe that just one of these ceremonies will give you everything that one can gain from one of these ceremonies. To understand a thought or concept is not the same as to feel and be that concept or thought. Or in other words, just because one is lucid and knows one is lucid and knows one can fly in a lucid state does not mean that you will be able to fly in a lucid state ones first time. Self imposed barriers are brought down brick by brick and over time. Taken from a biblical standpoint, when Jesus was out in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights being tempted by the devil, he was on a vison quest in lakota eyes and the devil was part of himself. Similarly in the Buddhist tradition, when Buddha sat under the banyan(Bodhi) tree and was tempted by external and internal influences he was on a vison quest in lakota eyes and the external influences and internal influences were thoughts generated from internal and external stimuli that prompted him to stay or to leave, perservere or give in. In the end, the great war and little wars are held within and must be fought on an individual basis to gain ones freedom from oneself. Please bear in mind these are my own beliefs based on my own experiences and in no way should you except these as experiences as truth unless they are your own experiences as well and even then give room for change.

Sorry to double post, but I realized I hadn't fully answered your Question Alan, Often times, one has to look at the implications or what is infered to understand some of the possibilities or benefits of something. So, as there is much debate and very little open belief on seeing future events one has to ask this question...what benefit was gained by personally seeing and experiencing an event before it happened and telling others about it in detail? Personal benefits versus benefits of the people who were told? What can we discover or imply about the nature of time through this simple vision? These are the types of questions one must ask oneself to derive full benefit from a vision. If one simply answers that nothing new was gained as those are old thoughts that have been circulating for a long time then one has missed the point, personal relevance and proof helps to break down ones own barriers.... As for no need to fear, I admit there is no real reason to fear being removed from this forum for open and candid posts. I also admit that there is no real harm done if in being open and honest some think I am a lunatic or deranged in some way. I freely admit that I do not completly understand or believe all of my own experiences 100%. I still have many barriers intact as I question everything and leave room for much doubt in so doing, but I also leave room for more experiences and different understandings. To limit oneself because something is not acceptable or believable 100% is the nature of my condition. I fear jumping to a false conclusion most of all and thus limiting my finding the true nature and meaning behind something. Always trying to keep in mind that just because there is no valid testing method or that it has not been done yet in enough clinical trials does not make it any less possible. With that said, as implied earlier...I have at a very young age experimented with going into others dreams. I told one such lady that I visited to remember this dream. I made a gigantic fish appear in her dream and repeated over and over that she should remember the fish and me being in the dream. I told her to call me the next day and simply say the word fish and if she did I would tell her about the dream. Well, needless to say, she called and said the fish. This was one of my mothers friends from work and she was completly astounded that I told her about her dream in detail after that. My mother still gets calls about that dream from that woman as she was so completly amazed.

Experiment 2, I wondered as only a child can wonder, if it is possible to bring something back from the dream world. I theorized that perhaps the dream world was simply thought or perhaps it was composed of spirit and thought. A collective unconsious mind if you will permeated with thought projections of dreamers or actuall spirit bodies and thoughts. At any rate, I went into my dream with the sole intention of bringing back something from the dream world and waking up with it. I went into a dream store that was selling stones. A woman ran the store. I asked her if I could look at a small stone she had in a display case. She handed it to me and I asked her if I could have it. She replied that it was 5 dollars and I instantly reached into my pockets for the money and lost my lucidity. After pulling my empty pockets out I regained my lucidity and asked her, "If I can make you shop fly into the air will you give me the stone?" She looked at me a bit funny and replied," If you could do that then I would give you the shop," with an incredulous look on her face. I immediately pocketed the stone and sent the store and us flying high into space. I opened the door and replied," Is that high enough for you?" Her jaw dropped and I could tell that she was stunned beyond belief, obviously she was not aware that she was dreaming. Now, when I woke up I found that I had no stone in my hand or in my pocket. So, I thought what have I learned. Simply put, you can't bring things from the dream world to this one. A few months passed and I actually saw the woman in my dreams. She looked at me as I was walking around outside and walked over to me. She asked me, "Do you like stones?" I replied," I collect stones." Next thing I new she had me over at her car telling me how she was down here visiting from Maryland and that she had just happened to bring a case of stones in here car. She opened her car trunk and there amidst hundreds of other stones was the stone I had seen in the dream. I reached for it and got an electrical shock as I picked it up. I put it down to see if perhaps the other stones would shock me as well. None did. I picked up the stone I had seen in my dream and asked her," how much for this one?" To which she replied," Is that the one you want?" I said with a smile," Yes, this one is the one I want." She replied, " Your not going to believe this, but I had a dream about you and that stone some months ago...you can have it." I didn't tell this woman that I had went into her dream specifically to get something small like that stone as a test." Instead I simply said," How strange, tell me about your dream." She told me everything just as I had remembered it and I thought, well there is your proof, no need to scare her and tell this perfect stranger it was anything more than synchronicity. Besides, I didn't want her to think I was an odd ball. Well, now that I have proved to everyone that I am a few bricks shy of a loaf of bread...I will tell you that I tried this with larger objects latter and for what ever reason it didn't work. I have theorized that perhaps one could not trully bring an object back with you, but instead could stun someone who had that object into giving it to you out of sheer disbelief and mystery. I don't think someone is going to give you a million dollars or a nice car though just because of something that struck them as odd and perhaps a bit like deja-vu etc. Well, enough of my ramblings, I am well prepared to realize that not to many will take me seriously after this, but thats the price one pays for complete honesty when associated with things or ideas that are beyond the scope of belief. Think how many thought that it was crazzy to try to fly or go to the moon though. I firmly believe that one day all of these things will be uncovered for what they are and along the way of course some will be crazzy and others just labeled crazzy for their seemingly crazzy insights and ideas. As always, it can't hurt to try something new, who knows it just might work. I am not ruleing out any theories as to just what really happened during any experience I have had as I don't really have any concrete theories of my own to apply to them. I simply try to see what one can infer from these experiences and there is often more than just one way to interpret such an experience. Question everything and accept nothing on blind faith.

I just read the intriguing set of messages posted under the Dream Guides subject area.

I'm particularly interested in the comments about a hierarchal view of the dream world or other realities or whatever we want to call this place we visit.

This discussion raises the issue of subjectivity in perceiving the dream world (as well as our world). Although a dream world(s) may exist, we can only make sense of that space through our particular cultural lens. Some of us might perceive our LD and other dreaming experiences in a hierarchal fashion because that perspective so permeates our society. That doesn't mean that hierarchies in the dream world EXIST.

I'm suggesting a postmodern/poststructuralist view of the dream world...a view that seems to be taking its time reaching the inner spaces of the hard sciences.

I like the approach that some of you suggested that we keep an open mind about our dreaming adventures. Still, even with this approach, we can never set aside our cultural subjectivity.

Rather than seeking "truth" or proof, I'd rather celebrate the multiple experiences shared on this website and see how they inform and benefit my life (and dream) experiences.

When we set up "truths" or rigid viewpoints on how the dream world operates for us, don't we risk trapping our dream consciousness in a maze of our own creation? In a thousand years, how will society view the dream world (assuming we make it here on Earth that long)?

Dear Karen!

As I investigated your posts, I found that nobody did really welcome you here in the forum.

So: WELCOME!! :-)

I found your postings interesting, please keep us updated on everything related to dream - research, especially what might be helpful to forward lucid dreaming.

The topic "dream guides" isn't that easy. I think this discussion challenges the basis of our worldview. It feels like stumbling on the catwalk we just built to somehow move safely in the great and black void that the unknown and boundless life still is. I had a hypnagogic image like this lately. It is not only, that we can't say "there is nothing objective to dream - characters". I didn't plunge deeply into philosophy of postmodern or poststructuralist worldviews. In my eyes it is the power of logos, that creates the world in telling its story. But we all know, that this is only one facet of life's jewel. You may tell great stories about the tiger dying, but he is gonna getya anyway, if you don't take care. (Regards to Stephen's tiger) I think there is a mindset called "selective subjectivism" that covers what I've said. I mean, in dreams, too, we can't easily say, what is subjective, what objective. In a more precise expression: Maybe the guide we meet is a different being, maybe part of ourselves, maybe only some aspects are genuine and the others our projection.

Unfortunately most astral projectors don't care about the physical plane or rarely arrive there. So their reports remain "merely" subjective. But as you might have read (e.g. in the thread LD -OBE connection) there are reports of consensual experiences, among the astral projectors, as well as among (lucid) dreamers. They may proof without doubt for the experiencing subject the truth and objectivity of this experience. But for the external this truth remains doubtful. But why should we over and over ask the basic question of reality of dreaming experience? At least for me it is, that we have enough proof, that dreams can be mutual. This is why thoughts of dream guides are not too far off for me. And today, over one year after the foregoing discussion I see, that I more and more tend to see, that all what happens is linked in a great web, here and beyond, including the thought, that the border of here and beyond is subjective. Not that I sense it all the time. No. The greatest part is still a mental construction. The question for me is today: How can I find and experience the highest guidance? How can I experience being part of this web? How can I develop and realise my potential? How can I get over my fear of the unknown, that I experience as a dark void? How can I trust and let go?

It is like you wrote: Celebrate the multiple approaches. Don't get caught. But I can say, that I have to tell a story, I have maybe to invent, to visualise, to feel the guide to finally move closer to experiencing guidance. I still feel being on the edge of the void, but I understand the many men, that made the jump and woke up in a totally different dream, than they ever had. The void is the side of my fear. It is representative of my fear in consciously crossing the border between waking and dreaming. I somehow fear the change in myself, that might come with accepting guidance. Although I must confess, that in the last one or two months I started a kind of conversation in a daydream like state with whatever there is in the light and love I see and feel while focussing on it. And I must say, that the effects "benefit" my life and my ability to love deeper.

OK. That is very personal. But I think it is worth posting it nonetheless. And the subject of this thread is dream guides.

In a thousand years: Lately I heard a German anatomist and artist speaking of even larger cycles. Written human history is maybe 10.000 years old. And the important questions about nature and life did arise in these times, if not earlier. Until now, we haven't really answered these questions. The Mahabarata does speak of incredible larger cycles of human learning. BTW it was very interesting to hear, that the Indus culture was highly developed thousands of years before the Egyptians. Homo sapiens is 100.000 years old. Maybe we have to puzzle another 100.000...

Don't mind me being lax with the numbers. I don't want to look everything up, now. What's another year...

Good luck with re - teaching lucid dreaming

And my special regards to Skypony...

Yours Ralf

I had a recent dream that fits into the dream guide category that I would like to share.

During the entrance to this dream I visualized a huge set of double doors. On the doors in metallic lettering, I visualized the words Akashic records. This was a deliberate attempt to go into a library type scenario. The general idea is to go there lucid while seeking out some type of knowledge or other. When you pick up a book, firmly intend to see the answer or information revealed to you.

Then next thing I knew, I was inside this library. On my right there was several bookshelves in the middle of the room. To my left there were desks and tables. Straight ahead of me were an archway and a dark brown wall. I am not sure why but I was staring at this, perhaps trying to figure out what it was. A dark skinned young man came up to my right side and took a look at the wall with me.

"I'm infinite,' he whispered to me.

"How? I want to be infinite too! Can you show me how?' I asked, excited.

He just looked at me, turned, and walked away. I ran after him, following him around the corner of a bookshelf. He glanced back at me and snapped his fingers, clearly dismissing me. I felt that to follow him at this time was not the right thing to do.

Instead I went over near to where I had been standing, and firmly intended to be infinite. I felt my dream body substantially widen, and had a very brief sensation of spanning across a huge area of time and space. It was somehow localized within my dream body. I woke up at this point and ended up trying to get back to the library. I ended up in a different dream scenario where I used the snapping of my fingers to stabilize the scene.

May you all find yourselves in infinite lucid dreams

Dream guides seem to pop up all over in my dreams. It is odd; they seem to take many different shapes, but I know there are only 2 or 3 of them. They often appear in the guises of my friends or as people I've met a long time ago, but I know it is a Guide because of the way they speak or act, plus this inner feeling of just "knowing".

I once asked them why they always took the form of people I already knew, and one answered, "We don't have any physical shape anyway, so we use whatever your memory has available at the moment."

They've imparted a lot of wisdom on how to become lucid and tricks I could do in the dream worlds. All of this was before I really knew what "lucid dreaming" was or that other people were doing it. When I started doing some research on it, I was amazed that a lot of the techniques people described were exactly what my dream guides had told me to do. It makes me wonder if we were all born with this talent and have just had it taken away from us by years of living in an unquestioning real world....

Tom,

I've had similar experiences...particularly as a child. I wonder sometimes how my life might have played out had my dreaming experiences been valued and nurtured by my family and the world around me.

I agree, that most, if not all, children probably have some type of lucid dreaming experiences. And I think we need to be careful not to overlay our perspectives of lucid dreaming or any dream approach on to children. I wonder what kids could offer to adult understanding of what happens when we go to sleep at night if we just asked them without contextualizing our questions in our paradigm (like not using the term, dream).

Wouldn't it be nice to allow children (and all of us) to let their sleep time experiences unfold in whatever manner they do...and see what comes out of that?

Thanks for your comments.

Karen

its been several years since any postings on this discussion, but i have something relevant to add, so i will. Also, this is my first posting ever in the forum. About a year ago i was on vacation with my lady in Puerto Rico, sleeping for the night in our rented SUV. I had been trying to incubate the idea of a dream where I would fly straight up vertically the next time i gained lucidity. That night, I dreamed about being in my childhood bedroom(my most common dream environment)with my current(and hopefully permanent) girlfriend and lucidity simply overcame me with no apparent clues or testing. Trying to remember my mission, my partner asked if I would like to have sex. Always a great endeavor, awake or sleeping, but I then recalled my desire to fly straight up as far as I could. She hugged me and held on to me outside of my room, and I put one arm up(thats my super-man flying style I learned from the Matrix movies) and away we went. Past the Earth's atmosphere and into black space amidst the distant stars. Speed constantly accelerated and my body slowly spun as we continued to build up more and more momentum. Faster and faster, the stars in the distance just flying past us, kind of like the simple Windows screen-saver. This flight continued for several minutes until I woke up in our SUV. The thing is, these simple visions were not what I was expecting. I really wanted to travel to some distant galaxy or worlds or see symbols or something. Anything, except just distant points of light passing by. This posting section started off about dream guides but then mutated into hiearchies and vertical travel and such, so I feel this posting was relevant. What I am saying is that there isn't necesarrily any 'real' levels of 'advancement' independent of our experience. And we don't always get what we 'consciously' want. I have had some very entertaining and moving experiences, but that night, I learned that the mystery is deeper than I ever imagined. I travelled internally the equivalent of x to the enth power parsecs, and behold- found the mundane. No higher level, no wonderous world. I'm not saying they aren't out there, or in there. I'm just saying, in my exeprience, everything is quite strange.