I would like to hear members' experiences or opinions regarding the effects that expectations have had on their dreams. For example, I feel I was able to fly in an LD the first time I tried because I expected to be able to. I feel that my expecting to be unable to LD every night could be keeping me from from suceeding. Thanks, Kate

I think expectations play a huge role. The mind really pays attention to itself, and genuinely believes what it says!

Of course the best part is - as I read in a book I found in a recent LD after asking for "guidance" -

"...the mind easiest to change is the closest one."

Joy

Hi Kate,

Thanks for posing your question regarding expectations -- and for your continued contributions to our Forum discussions!

In response to your example: "I feel I was able to fly in an LD the first time I tried because I expected to be able to."

So how did you develop this expectation? Consider your past history of understanding that the usual constraints of the waking world do not apply in Dreamland, add the belief that if others can do it, so can you, and there you have the making of an expectation.

When you say: "I feel that my expecting to be unable to LD every night could be keeping me from succeeding."

Right you may be, but the more important question here is: How can I change this expectation?

Again, you might want to consider your past history. What strategies, techniques have worked for you? What is most likely to bring you the successes that will support the forming of a new expectation? For example, when I first began participating in experiments for Lucidity Institute, I had an understanding of how lucid dreaming works and very high motivation. It wasn't long before I discovered that every time I did an experiment, I had at least one lucid dream. So I do them all! And now I have the expectation that I will have a lucid dream whenever I do an experiment. And I do. Sounds simple? It is! And if I can do it, so can you.

What will you do tonight? Keelin

PS: For everyone's convenience, here's a link to the latest LI experiments: http://www.lucidity.com/index.html#experiment

You asked for opinions, so here goes:

Though I am a frequent lucid dreamer, I find it very difficult to do "abnormal" things in my LDs. For instance, I cannot seem to make myself fly! I have figured out how to penetrate walls, though. I think all of my LD problems stem, in some way, from expectations. For example, I had an extended LD this afternoon. I set a goal prior to napping that, should I LD, I would AGAIN try to fly. Here's what happened:

After gaining lucidity, I immediately remembered my goal. I suppose I should mention that I was in my bedroom in my LD (I always seem to be in my bedroom!) which, now that I'm writing this, seems an unlikely place to successfully launch myself into the air, but I digress...

Anyway, I jumped into the air, hoping to sort of float down. No go. So I tried again, this time tucking my legs into a ball. Plunk.....No floatie.... So I get on the King-Sized rice bed, get a running start, and promptly slam into the floor! Bummer

I think I just expect to fall, so I do. It was the same way the first time I tried to penetrate a wall. I expected it to be solid, and it was. I really had to work hard to convince myself that, because I was dreaming, I could do whatever I wished. It's one thing to think you might be or should be able to do something, and quite another to absolutely know you can.

Hey Lee, try bouncing up and down on the bed and tell me what happens. Anyone can do that - asleep or awake! - and you may find an "antigravity" effect will develop, allowing you to bounce higher than in waking life. And it's great fun. I was bouncing up and down very happily in night-before-last's LD before I even considered taking off and flying.

Joy

Hi, all. Thanks for all the responses! Joy - advice from a book found in the world of LD's seems perfect for someone with an LD issue. And it's good advice to boot. Thanks! Keelin - I believed I could fly becasue I had read so many postings by other people who flew, so I assumed it could be done. It was so easy. I think it would help if I recall the experiece a lot - the deciding to try it and then just doing it. It might help with other issues, like being able to easily recognize the dreamstate. As to recognizing that the normal constraints aren't there in dreams, I think I have the concept down fine. The problem here would be more that my thinking is limited in terms of the possibilities this opens. But that's not even a big issue, since I can't get lucid to begin with! I would say that getting up after sleeping and then going back to sleep has worked a couple of times. I wish it was something else, becasue I always don't feel like getting up when my alarm goes off in the night, but if I want to LD that much, I'll just have to do it. Thanks for the plan, it makes sense. So, I'm going to say that tonight, I will get up for an hour or so at some ungodly hour. Also, I think I'll try and incubate dreams about things that are dreamsigns for me, such as my parents' old house in New Jersey. Lee - it's interesting that you're able to LD with such frequency yet have trouble getting rid of the conceptions of the waking state. Do you get lucid by recognizing that something is not "normal"? We had some discussion recently on the television as mirror site about a sense of logicalness being a help yet a hindrance in LD'ing. Do you read the post your lucid dreams site much? Maybe you could spend some time reading some of the dreams there, and it would help get you in the frame of mind to suspend "realtity" when lucid. The fun things to do while lucid site could be good. And don't forget the White Queen's advice to believe six impossible things before breakfast. Excellent dreams to all, Kate

Hi Joy ->> Thanks for the advice. I do not seem to have any problem remembering to try something once I become lucid, so I will give the ol' bed jump a try. I did experience an anti-gravity effect once, but that particular LD was very short. I was running across the living room, jumping as I ran, and I would return to the ground slower than expected (reduced gravity, I suppose). I only jumped three times, and for some reason my eyes were closed. When I attempted to repeat this experiment with my eyes open, I was just skipping-to-my-Lou normally. Drats!

Kate --> Except for two instances, I always, and I mean ALWAYS, find myself in my bedroom when I become lucid. The dreamsign that, again always, "gets me lucid" is looking at my digital alarm clock. I've seen that baby behave in some most peculiar ways! After becoming lucid, I have looked at the TV and seen abberational activity. I have also missed TV cues and failed to become lucid. The last example of this was as follows: I was having an NLD and looked at the TV. Earlier in the day, I had read an article in Time about satellite TV signal thieves. In my NLD, I looked at the TV and the words "This Signal Is Being Hacked" appeared in sort of a translucent way, superimposed over the regular programming. I failed to become lucid seeing that, but a few moments later I looked at my alarm clock and it was running backwards: 7:09, 7:08, 7:07---Hey, I'm Dreaming! WooHoo!

I will read more of the "Post Your Lucid Dreams". As for the White Queen's advice, I must plead ignorance, as I have never heard of her.

Warmest regards, Lee

Dear Keelin - It worked! Callooh Callay! I actually got up when my alarm went off. I watched an infomercial on Cancun for awhile because it was exotic and faraway, then went out for a walk and looked at the stars - I saw a shooting star! - then read. I definitely thought it was possible I might LD, because of my getting lucid the last time after similar circumstances. And I did! It wasn't much of an LD, but the point is that I got there. I was in a bedroom, and it seems I just somehow was aware I was lucid. I didn't have a strong surge of happiness and excitement as I usually do upon realizing I'm lucid. I went to the door to the hallway to go out and start doing things. But everything was dark. I figured I should try the spinning technique, so I spun very fast. I experience the spinning strongly, but nothing really changed. I decided I should try and create the scene, but felt I didn't know how to go about this - it seemed like a major deal, as opposed to trasnforming things as I've done before. I was going to simply leave, in hopes of finding a decent scene, when I recalled I had wanted to experience lucid sex. I lay down on the floor and was thinking what I wanted the scenario to be and how I wanted to make it happen. Then I apparently went into a vivid nonlucid about my son when he was about a year old seeming to be missing, although it turned out he was in his crib after all, with another baby. I don't feel as if my lucidity level was low as I've experienced that before, because I seemed to have a lot of presence of mind. But it seemed more as if I was suffereing from a major lack of imagination. Maybe that's part of low level lucidiy. After I woke up from the nonlucid dream, my head still had that heavy, involved feeling, and a lot of images and sounds and snatches of words were running across my mind, so I felt I might be able to get ucid again when I fell asleep. But then after awhile the alarm went off. So that was all very hopeful. Lee - the White Queen is from Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass by Louis Carroll. I just thought the "impossible things" idea was a good one for LD'ers. Good luck finding encouragement on the dream sites. I think I'll try and find ways to stimulate my imagination in waking life, and just stoke up my sensory input. Fly high, Kate

Well, last night I tried the same thing and then slept fitfully and had the ususal pointless nonlucids. I'll try again, but it wont be until I've had a couple of decent night's sleep. Kate

Another note on expectations:

Prior to this morning's LD attempt, I set three goals: 1. I wanted to go outside. Believe it or not, after dozens of LDs, I have never left the house! Go figure. 2. I wanted to visit my next-door neighbors..well, more specifically, my next-door neighbor's wife ;) 3. I wanted to try bouncing on the bed, per Joy's advice.

Before I laid down, I thought "Won't I hit my head on the ceiling if I jump on the bed? Of course not! It'll be a dream!"

Afer becoming lucid, I did indeed go outside and to the neighbor's house. After a false awakening, I decided to try out the bed experiment. BANG! I hit my head! For some reason, the ceiling fan wasn't there in my dream. Good thing...

I suppose the implication here is that I expected to hit my head, so I did. I think I'll try a trampoline next time!

I've found that my pessimistic side drastically effects my lucid dreams through expectation a lot. I have a lot of "skills" that I can use at will, like flying, going through walls, teleporting around, etc. But I have a hard time finding things when I need them. For example, I'll often try to teleport myself into a city, and then think "i bet it will be empty", and then sure enough, it's just empty streets with no one around. Last night I tried to transport myself to "a really cute girl". I ended up with a cute 5 year old girl. Later I was looking at a TV screen trying to tune in an image of war. Instead, I kept getting Halo for Xbox commercials. Very funny, brain. Very funny.

Tom--> I laughed when I read your post

Here's another of my experiences with goal-setting and expectations from yesterday morning's session:

Goal: Go to my neighbor's house and use their trampoline to aid my continued efforts to learn to fly. I have no idea whether they really have a trampoline, but I'm sure they do, right?! After I laid down and began my affirmations, a thought occurred to me: What if there are no spotters avaialable when I want to use the trampoline? (Note: my Mother would be proud that I thought that, considering I ignored the "spotter" advice every time I jumped on a trampoline as a youth). Anyway, I dismissed that thought as ridiculus.

After becoming lucid, I went into my neighbor's backyard and there was the trampoline. I hopped on, thought of the spotter thing, and began to jump. After ONE JUMP I somehow got off-center and slipped into one of the spaces around the perimeter of the trampoline. Quite unpleasant! Before I could resume jumping, I faded to black....

Next time, I'm going to another neighbor's house where I'm SURE they have a VERY LARGE trampoline

Oh, this is hilarious! I'm laughing out loud. Lee and Tom, you're both clearly experts at meeting your expectations. Keep us posted!

Hi, fellow dreambodies! Lee - Congratulations on your success with the goal-setting. I would much rather have your problem than mine, because I think it will be a lot easier for you to learn to get over your expectations and make use of the lucid state than it is for me to learn how to get lucid. Already you're having success! I wonder if you could do an affirmation about reminding yourself that there is no danger in LD's? It seems that while LD'ing you get hung up about fear issues that make sense in waking life but which can be suspended in dreams. One of the best things about LD's for me is when I realize "Oh, that doesn't matter, this isn't real." It's so freeing! Tom - Your blaming your "pessimistic side" for having negative expectations is a useful insight for me. I was thinking today about how I focus on the things that don't work out and then take this as evidence that "good things don't happen." At the same time I take good circumstances for granted (like a good little middle-class American), thus never generating hopeful expectations of tricky things like becoming lucid. I try to work on gratitude, and have had a lot of success, so this will fit in perfectly with my getting rid of negative expectations when it comes to getting lucid. And interestingly, this a.m. I showed more awareness of being in the dream state than it usually seems. I was drifting in and out of borderline sleep. I was evidently sleeping, and dreaming that someone I don't want to see pulled up in a car and parked. I immediately reminded myself I was dreaming and that I could escape a confrontation by waking up. So it seemed to me as if maybe I have more awareness than I thought, and I just don't usually cooperate with myself. Does anyone have any thoughts on that concept? The thing about ending up with a cute little five-year-old instead of a cute girl reminds me of a dream Linus posted back in July, where a similar thing happened. Only his little girl was snotty. I guess your brain likes messing with you. I know dreaming minds use puns sometimes to make points. Next time, I would try talking to the dream character. It might help keep you in the dream and would be a cool experience. Lucidity to all, Kate

Hi, fellow dreambodies! I just wanted to report that I got lucid again. And far from expecting it, I had decided to give up for now. I had watched Waking Life that night, I don't know it that had an effect or not. I have to watch it again, because I couldn't do it justice last night. I will say it seems an excellent LD movie. Anyway, I was in a nonlucid in which my ex and I were sitting in my parents' old bedroom in Jersey and I was saying I was giving up on LD'ing. Then I realized I was in fact dreaming, and I said "Wait a minute, this is a dream!" I was apparently lying down and I wanted to get up and do things. But the scene was vague and I could tell I was starting to wake. So I spun, and made sure to be totally involved in the spinning. This worked, and I was back in the LD strongly. I decided to fly, and opened the bedroom door and flew through the house. Then I decided to go outside and fly. I did this, but then the dream transformed into a nonlucid in which I was riding a bike with some other people. I had to brake but couldn't recall how to, so I used my feet and was surprised that this worked. Then I had to brake again and hung onto a bush in order to come to a stop. Then me and two men were going downhill along a path through some tall yellow grass. We all decided to get off and walk the bikes, but I ended up deciding to slid fast for fun. Then I saw I'd pulled out a couple of clumps of grass, and I stopped in order to replant them. Then I guess the alarm went off. Tonight I will probably watch Waking Life at least in part again, and hopefully get up in the night if I don't go to bed too late. Kate

"Most Precious Treasure" March, 04, 4 am

I'm in an unknown city. In the pavement made of cobblestone there is embedded a ledge of ore or crystal. Translucent. Light blue. I touch the ledge, it is fast, nothing to remove easily. I know people have fought for treasures like these, fought and killed. I stand up again and it dawns on me, that the most precious treasure lies within us, in our inner world. I feel clearer and peaceful, filled with this insight. After a few moments my clarity extends to the awareness this all is a dream. I'm still calm, as if I've expected lucidity. (And I have been trying for lucidity again the last two weeks). I think of what to do. There are some experiments, but basically I don't want to do anything special, no experimentation, just looking around. Just see, what is going on here. I'm standing on a crossing. To my right the street extends between rows of old style houses. Like in the old centre of Luebeck. In front of me the city ends and I see a line of big headed willows on a bank. For some moments I can't decide where to go. The dreamscape begins to tremble, so I move my eyes left and right - stabilised. I feel I must decide now where to go. I slowly go to the willows, consciously taking every step. This is much effort, feels like my limbs are heavy. I think I may be close to physical awakening, so I decide to fall in a slow jogging pace, intending to more intensely engage my dreambody. It seems to work. Movements are more easy. But the dreamscape starts dissolving. I decide to reach the willows and touch the bark. But just before my hand reaches the tree, I awake. I hold a sheet of paper before my eyes. Dream continues non - lucid (and not remembered).

Besides the deep message the dream has for me, I post it here, because I have more technical questions:

Maybe I'm waking up, because I EXPECT to wake up. This seems to be the case in this dream, that seemingly fulfilled my expectation: With a false awakening.

How can I change my expectation? This one seems to be burned in my neural pathways after numerous LDs with fast awakenings.

Any helpful hints?

Maybe only with more experience like this and a clearer mind I can overcome my habit of fast awakening after getting lucid.

Into the lucid light

Ralf

Ralf,

Try visualizing the scenario, but changing the ending to one where you do not wake up. Visualize it until you become confident that your visualization ending can over-ride the previous ending. You also might want to try imagining your feeling after successfully carrying it out.

Do you believe that waking up while lucid dreaming is beyond your control? You'd have more success without that particular belief. : )

You do know that you can (potential) control it, right?

There are short steps between these. -Know you can -Believe you can -Expect that you will

If you feel that you are lying to yourself, realize that "you" change and evolve constantly. The you who believed that you couldn't was the one who was operating on false information. The experience of thousands of people, including many of your friends here, says you can.

There is a huge difference between these. -I haven't -I can't

You've created a self-imposed limitation on yourself because you've allowed your personal experience to create your beliefs in the face of overwhelming external evidence to the contrary. Realize this, believe you can do it and 'burn' that over your old, and mistaken, neural connections.

Gordon

Thanks for reply. Sometimes I'm tricking myself. I don't know how, but in a way this expectation has developed. You might see in the prolonging - thread (Learning lucid dreaming) and in my dream report here, that I do use prolonging techniques, often sucessful, too.

Your visualising hint sounds worthy. I'll give it a try and report.

Thanks for details on steps and differences re expectations and how to change them.

I try mostly to look for the sucessful lucid dreamers and find out, how they do it, find out, what I can learn from that.

When I had the dream mentioned, it really dawned on me clearly, that at least in this case my expectation fooled me into the false awakening.

So time to change my expectations, surely. But also a realistic approch to LD in my eyes includes the research, saying that dream(dreamscape) tends to be less stable towards the end of sleep cycle. So it is a good way to train for recognising dreamsigns and get lucid earlier in the night and have more stable/ longer dreams in this way, too.

This dream I see as an example of a more stable dream, it hapened in the middle of sleep cycle.

See, what I can do by visualising

Thanks

Ralf

March, 17th, 0630

Consciousness Check

... I find myself on a high bridge, crossing waters in an urban setting (somewhat reminds of Luebeck, where I lived for years). A small man comes from the other side, jogging, but on the outer rim of the bridge with no reeling between him and the abyss. Very daring, I think. I go on for some time, then he comes again from the same direction. He must have passed the bridge on the other side, where I didn't notice him, me thinks. Again he is running slalom between the iron ropes of the bridge. It is getting narrow, he has difficulties to pass me, pushes me. I make place, let him through and go on, only to find, I can't go on here. There is no safe way down to the other side. Only a narrow way without reeling. Now, that is strange. But I must have somehow entered the bridge, at least on the other side must be a safe way down. I turn and find it. As I'm on the ground again, I walk now to the other side. (It is now just a trench with a tiny rill in the middle). There is an older man who signals I should follow him. He pulls a plank, I use the occasion to lie down on it. He complains that young people tend to take the easy way. OK. Got the message. I get up again and follow him into a tiny cubic white house, one door, one square window, apparently just one room. We meet up with some other young man there. There is talk, but my attention is drawn to a strange happening on the wall: It looks like a square arrangement of four moving things, linked by threads at first. Then I differentiate something, which looks like two long - legged spiders being the left side of the object, a plain light brownish bug on the top right corner and a piece of coloured blank sheet hanging on the lower right corner. Like I said, bug and spiders are moving up and down the wall, kept in constant distance by the threads, pulling, carrying the sheet with them. I can't help, but stare at this utmost strange object. I wonder, why the spiders aren't attacking the bug. Soon they jump on the back of it, but now they are looking more like too huge, brownish plant louses, with the vertical plain body. (A sudden transition) A ca. 35 years old woman, with black, medium long hair points to something written on a blackboard and says, that things like these do happen in dreams. Yes, in dreams, I reply, automatically, at first. But then I know: Yes, it is a dream. I remember one "task:" Interact. I say "thank you" to the woman, while everything fades. I consciously walk on my position to tenderly stabilise dreambody. Rub hands. I see, that there is a square window in front of me, looking down on a city street (reminding me of a view in a former dream). And now? I remember my plan to "check consciousness." I say loudly: "I am Ralf Penderak. It is March, 17th, 2004." A slight kind of tug shakes the dreamscape and myself, but everything somewhat gains stability. At least the dream stops fading. I keep the walking movement all the time. I try to actually go some distance, but I'm stumbling, like things were standing next to my feet. I stop that, because it feels like waking up physically. I start clapping hands as a variation of prolonging technique. It sounds realistically. Now I'm interested in finding out, what happens, if I stop. Would I still hear the clapping? Nothing happens, no sound. Now I merely imagine the clapping sound. I hear it as weak, as in "physical awake" imagination. Everything works so realistically, I begin doubting, whether I'm still dreaming. But it must be a dream, mustn't it? It is so fuzzy and dark grey, as if my eyes are simply closed. Like looking through the eyelids. I spin the dreambody, intending to stabilise or create dreamscene. It doesn't work. But now, this is a very smooth kind of waking up physically compared to most other dreams. I awake physically, lying on my left side/ belly.

General Impressions:

It feels like one of those dreams, seemingly made up to make the dreamer lucid. All the odd situations. But, as you see, my critical faculty wasn't critical enough, if it were'nt for the dream lady (teacher) to tell me, it is a dream. Thanks one more time... And that is quite rare, that a dreamcharacter makes you lucid. But it is one thing, I imagined to be helpful... it is part of the VILD method, isn't it? All the cubic and square and four have the same meaning of wholeness in Jungian psychology. Interesting to see dream from that side. I feel, that my approach to care for the meaning in my dreams and to transfer dream ideas / knowledge analysis into my waking life is fruitful in regard to lucidity, too. It is part of lucid living. I know we don't analyse here (in TLI forum), nonetheless I thought it might be helpful for some to mention it.

Exercise:

My exercise is mainly to master the WILD thing this year. I'll append later, what I've done so far in this current round for lucidity. I wrote something on it the days before.

Conclusion:

In regard to prolonging lucid dreams it might be helpful to increase mental clarity (like I did with the consciousness - check). Increasing mental clarity may not only prolong lucidity, but the dream, too. In a way it seems, my "waking up" expectations (see LD "The Most Precious Treasure") were weakened in this case by the consciousness check. I speculate it is the higher mental clarity, which helped to lessen automatic effect of expectations. But, Gordon, I did visualise another ending of my dream, that day on a walk in the forest. I played reaching that tree and go on dreaming. Thanks for that tip, one more time I'll keep you updated.

Excerpts from my diary regarding LD:

March, 14th, 2004

Continuous Awareness

Might rename the project of mastering WILD in this direction after having read Lischka and Zurfluh (Two Swiss LDers hardly recognised internationally) again. I try to keep aware simply Not drinking alcohol and eating less and trying to solve conflicts peaceful seems to make me quieter, more able to keep up the delicate balance of relaxation and alertness. I still feel I have to decide something. I can't really dedicate myself to the awareness thing right now. It isn't easy to put in words. I feel it as a struggle of paradigms. Zurfluh vs. LaBerge. I can't get to the point so far. It isn't easy to keep the focus or to embrace it all (what seems to be the richer way, as always) At least I feel I'm on a good way to master the drinking, and now on the way to master the eating thing. I did get over smoking, so much I can say after nearly three years. I still enjoy life, I enjoy it even deeper, clearer, more subtle. I write this, because yesterday night felt like a kind of breakthrough. I was still aware in the face of hypnagogic imagery, for some longer moments, at least. That makes me confident. I should write more often on this project, I sacrifice some habits to reach the awareness goal. Most pictures were "Gothic-like" in hypnagogia... Mabe, like Jill (member of another LD group)says, I need a container for the old habits - i.e. PC gaming - to better let go of my "vices".

March, 17th, 2004

What I did so far, in numbers: Recalled two dreams per night, again, since February, 25th. Did two or three reality checks, reflection/intention exercises per day, did the 61 points, counted myself to sleep, did wake up more often in the night. Had three lucid dreams in that time until today (which is nearly one per week), compared to: None, between Jan 16 and Feb 24, when I didn't do any dreamwork. Newest focus is something, I guess Thomas Yushak pointed out some time ago: I practise just containing what I perceive, practise non - identification (mostly after the 61 points, if I get that far) It is a game of staying aware or coming back to the fact, that I am just the container of what I perceive, like a bowl is not the water it contains. I shorten that in the reminder: "I'm just the vessel" if I find I have drifted off into non lucidity. And then get back to being awareness, to being observer. I'll keep you updated on progress.

Aloha, Dear Ralf!

First, Congratulations -- a long overdue acknowledgement, but delivered with admiration for your accomplishments on both the physical and non-physical fronts. And thank you for the details of your discipline. It is always interesting and helpful to know what has proved successful for others. (And what a fine "vessel" you are!) Please do keep us posted on further progress.

Also, wanted to thank you for a passage from your dream "Most Precious Treasure" [March 04, 2004] which still moves me.

Ralf wrote: "In the pavement made of cobblestone there is embedded a ledge of ore or crystal. Translucent. Light blue. I touch the ledge, it is fast, nothing to remove easily. I know people have fought for treasures like these, fought and killed. I stand up again and it dawns on me, that the most precious treasure lies within us, in our inner world. I feel clearer and peaceful, filled with this insight. After a few moments my clarity extends to the awareness this all is a dream. I'm still calm, as if I've expected lucidity."

The image of the translucent blue crystal is simply beautiful, but what haunts me about this particular passage is your realization that you already possess a treasure beyond what first caught your eye. Do you think that the fastness of the crystal allowed for this moment of reflection? I ask because that moment seems to hold a liminal potential that is fascinating to me. Knowing you to be a very self-reflective person, I'd like to hear your thoughts about such moments that I suspect have the potential to cause subtle, yet profound, shifts in our thinking -- both in dreams and in waking life.

Wishing you abundant aloha! Keelin

PS: On a more personal note, Laura Stewart dropped in to visit us at the Dreaming and Awakening retreat a couple of weeks ago at Kalani. You would have liked her definitely odd, LED-blinking umbrella. Sweet memories of our Maui DreamCampers remain ever vivid! Did your ear feel a tickle? ;)

Hey, Keelin!

You mean there could be something special to how the dream - matter resisted my longing grip?

Of course, and I guess that counts for dreaming or waking world, objects or persons resist our plans, wishes, longings, they have at least a temporary "will" of their own. If it weren't so, I guess we would have less opportunity to reflect, what we are doing or where our desire leads us.

But there is something more special to the situation with the crystal. It very closely resembles the ore in the PC game "Gothic 1," I'm still playing. It is an action role playing game, the main character is something like a knight or fighting magician in a kind of medieval world.

A lot of fighting has to be done, and I did a lot of fighting and sometimes killing in that game. And I felt how this killing went under my skin, I felt the killer, I potentially am. I was the killer. After a lot of killing I came to a point of feeling empty, everything seemed to be vain, including my behaviour, myself as the one directing the action of the avatar in the virtual world. Same time I began to feel with the virtual creatures I combated. I felt for myself, too. I mean, I felt how unnecessary killing made me feel hollow (you say that in English?) I reduced my killing to what is necessary to reach the goal of the game: Freedom for the inhabitants of this prison like world. Nonetheless, if I wanted to succeed, I needed ore (the equivalent of money there), to purchase weapons, armour, healing potions, food. In the beginning of the game I tried to get as much ore, as possible: stealing, robbing, fighting, killing for it. Later on I did only the necessary things to get it, saving the lives of many...

I often didn't save the murdering versions, when I found better, more "peaceful" solutions. That felt much better. It was like re - entering dreams and changing the outcome. But much more tangible, in a way.

The dream you refer to came right in the time of this turning point of my attitude towards the virtual characters.

So, now you may better understand, what the ore / the translucent crystal means: I can have it, if I want. But this isn't the greatest treasure. That I feel lies within myself. And going on the quest for this inner treasure (I guess it is compassion, love, freedom, wisdom, at least for me) is what I really want, is what fulfils my deepest desires. And lucidity in whatever world or state of mind seems to be a tool to find and open the inner treasure chests and then share, what I have found.

More light!

Ralf

PS: Nice flashback to Maui It is giving and taking, de ol' game But tickeling the ear? I don't know what you mean. LED blinking - that I recall clearly!

Dear Ralf!

Your comment (quoted below) offers an excellent reminder of what I personally feel to be one of the greatest gifts we can acquire from learning lucid dreaming.

First the quote: "You mean there could be something special to how the dream-matter resisted my longing grip? Of course, and I guess that counts for dreaming or waking world, objects or persons resist our plans, wishes, longings, they have at least a temporary 'will' of their own."

So apparently what we have here (in waking reality) as well as sometimes there (in dreamland) is the lack of complete "power over" environmental elements, characters, scenario. Yet what we hopefully come to realize is that we always have power to choose how we respond to that which we perceive to be our "reality", regardless of the true nature of that realm.

You add that you are: "...going on the quest for this inner treasure (I guess it is compassion, love, freedom, wisdom, at least for me) is what I really want, is what fulfils my deepest desires. And lucidity in whatever world or state of mind seems to be a tool to find and open the inner treasure chests and then share, what I have found."

This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere: "One never knows the exact moment when the heart will open." Indeed. And what treasures may lie within!

Thanks for your inspiring dream and thoughtful comments, dear Ralf.

Warm aloha, Keelin

PS: The tickle in the ear is what one might feel when someone far away is mentioning your name. ;)

Kate, look here, in your "own" thread an example of a lucid dream I had March, 4th, 2004 in the frame of peace work on WDPB.

Expectations and desired results in dreaming are conected in some strange way..Now that I ponder this problem I am starting to believe [the posability] that one angle of dream control lies in the [alighnment] of our mental and emotional facalties..some days are [plus days] and others are [minus days].. Line up enough ++++++ in one day and it may efect your dreams positivly..But too many----- are distructive to dream control..Pluses and minuses may symbolize the way we feel during the day our emotions and our expectations are daily events efect our dreams very strongly..So when we do our nightly [intent] with a positive attitude we should listen for any doughting negitive background thoughts that can be destructive to our desired nightly intent.. How can we believe its possable if we have doughts?? Some times I can have a highly charged confusing day and I loose alot of dream recall or the dream I recall will be a nightmare! But sometimes even then.. If I sit down and in a quiet room and regroup and the right attitude and emotions alighn themselves my dreams in general and recall are greatly improved! BUT for this to happen I must truely believe its posable..I must disolve all the doughting back ground thoughts mabey thats one reason why the power of expectation has such a great efect on dreaming! I have been a tv addict for many years..But I have noticed when dont watch tv before bed I sometimes have the most vivid near lucid dreams with better recall..It seems any [sudden change] from the usual daily habits can have a direct efect on dreaming and dream recall.. Example..I will wear my nova dreamer for the first time in three months..I think it may do some good.. I just created an [expectation] and I have a mind blowing lucid dream as a result.. or a fleeting thought during the day that [I BELIEVE] its time that something pleasent will happen in my dreams because its been long overdue..And my dream that night was GREAT! I also had a genuine desire to wish someone well who had cancer only a few hours before I went to sleep.But as I scanned the web sites I could find no way to contact them.But amazingly enough I dreamed about them that night..It was a true intention and desire and mabey I subconsciously expected to see them? When I was a child dreaming lucidly was common for me..Could my dreaming abilitys then have been simply because I believed and expected It was possable?? Cheers.. Tom

Tom, many times that I have had an LD on a particular night, I knew that I would have one in some intuitive way before going to bed. The feeling is not exactly a hope or expectation, nor even a strong intention, but a sense of openness to the experience, a readiness to have one. That's the only way I can put it into words. Also, there was a feeling that it didn't really matter whether or not I had one, either way was fine; Let's say, a willingness to be ok with whatever came, lucidity or not.

I definitely do worse when I obsess over having lucid dreams.

(Here's something funny that I just noticed as I was writing this:

I have a roommate--not an oneironaut-- who has a big, black, sweet Labrador Retriever, named Eldon. We call him Eldie for short. I just realized what we're calling him--LD! Isn't that cool?)

Anyway, expectations do have power.

Paul

Thanks Paul... I have another question in ...Last week..[Coments and conversation] your experiance when you were using your [cd] clock radio..Just curious about the results you had then? Thanks..Tom..

Tom, I had a couple of nights of success using my CD clock with pollow speakers when I first got it, but not since. I think the old accommodation factor, getting used to the CD so it doesn't register in the dream, is the reason. With the DreamMaker Pro I aim to experiment with different messages each night if I can.

Paul

Paul,

I also have better luck with lucid dreaming when I try to leave myself open and receptive. But expectations in lucid dreams dont always turn out the way I expect. In fact many times I have an equallay opposite dreamscene from what I want. For example, once I saw a dream character and since I was lucid I commanded the person to disappear. Then the character copied himself! Other times dream characters ignored me and so I wondered what this "dream sabotage" was all about. In my last lucid dream I expected and intended to pull up a specific buddha statue, and instead I got another living buddha like being that was totally different!

In flying I often can only fly low, until I set my belief and expectation really high. Im amazed at how even little doubts can affect my flying. But oftentimes what works best for me is to try and not expect anything in particular, but try to be open and just allow and accept something. I know how fears and desires can project so now that Im aware of this I try real hard to be "poker mind" without to many expectations except my intent alone. This is all still pretty new though, pioneering into the lucid mind.

Eve, even though we can change some aspects of our dreams by willpower or thoughtpower or whatever, I wonder why we we think we should have more control than we do awake? Isn't this just an ego trip?

Here's this Johnny-come-lately, the little egoic thinking mind, called "Me", trying to control this ancient, wise perceiving mind that evolved over billions of years of natural selection and survival of the fittest, and "Me" should be able to call the shots, just because the old guy temporarily isn't playing with a full deck.

I'm lucky if I can find a willing partner for romance half the time. Well, a quarter of the time.

Paul

Eve, by the way, the copying phenomenon is apparently wired into our dreams, according to Dr. Laberge. He mentions a replicating contact lens that became a dreamsign for him. Fast things go faster and faster, big things get bigger and bigger, as we pay attention to them. Isn't that weird?

Paul

Paul:

I know I've said this before in other ways on other threads, but "...we we think we should have more control than we do awake" because while lucid we do have more control than we do when awake. When we're awake, our perceptions register everybody's world. When we're dreaming, they register -- as far as we know -- only our world. Of course we have more potential control over what and how we experience when we're dreaming lucidly! That might sound egotistical but I guess in a literal fashion it is.

And isn't learning more about this "ancient, wise perceiving mind" a very excellent use of lucidity? Wouldn't we be learning more about ourselves that way?

If that mind, which is actually our mind, should be best left alone, why bother lucid dreaming? Regular dreams already optimize those ancient perception machines, don't they?

And, just to stay on topic, wouldn't a waking expectation of these limits you apply to your level of control in LD's result in a limited ability to successfuly gain control in them?

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Peter, I did not mean to imply that we have no control, or that we should not exert some control, only that it's no surprise to me that we don't have as much as we would like to have. We believe that the egoic thinking mind is powerful, but it's only a small part of our total consciousness (see Eckhart Tolle for more on this.) There is a much vaster source of knowledge and power within us beyond thought. Yet, we take that little mind into our dreamworld, invest it with self, and believe it should be able to run the show. There's a certain lack of humility there before the power of that deeper aware consciousness at our core, that which actually creates the world we perceive.

However, "why bother lucid dreaming?" you ask, if we should leave that mind alone. Well, I did not use those words, nor did I mean that at all, but since you put it that way, why do we bother to have lucid dreams? That's a great question.

I've asked myself that very question. Clearly, we don't exert any effort at anything unless there is some payoff. At first for me it was about having power over a world--the ego wanting to be in charge. I really enjoyed that. After a time, though, my dreams stopped cooperating. The power I thought I had evaporated, or rather, I saw that I never really did have that much power, except to respond to what the dream presented. It was an illusion of power.

These days I don't try to change my dream as a matter of exerting power, but only perhaps to accomplish some task. There's something truly cool about asking my dream a question and receiving an answer, or doing a consciousness experiment, or exploring a dream galaxy. I always stand in awe before that greater intelligence that really runs the show. That makes it so much more fulfilling. I think it's the awe that brings me back to lucid dreaming.

As you may have gathered from our previous chats, I don't believe there is that much of a difference between lucid and nonlucid dreams. They are both just dreams, after all. The only important difference to me is that we know we are dreaming, therefore we can appreciate the power hidden within us and experience that awe. It's a trip! Paul

Paul & Peter, I want to learn more about the "copying phenomena". I wondered if it was a result of a simple idea, which even if overlayed via a negative "eg, so and so disappear", that it was the thought of that particular character which was brought to mind, so it copied itself. Much like in hypnosis or subliminal programming, one needs to be careful with negatives and stick with simple ideas that one wants to incorporate. I wondered later, if in this dream, if I had simply adjusted or moved my consciousness elsewhere, that character would disappear from the dreamscape?

But, since then I've noticed a kind of uncooperativity of part of my dream mind when trying to control too much of the dream. The exceptions seem to be if I ask for spiritual guidance or do a mantra, so that a higher wisdom can come through and guide me. When I did this, I was able to transform and command some dream objects to change or create new dreamscapes.

Another point is with desires, and how after lucid dreaming for a while, playing out one's fantasies, they even get old and boring. Then we are left with our ultimate desires, and that is,( at least for me) some kind of love like Jesus, or Buddah or the ultiimate experience of the "mystical bridal chamber" spoken about in mystic Christianity.Or tantric guru yoga in Buddhism.

I believe our own minds have ultimate wisdom and awareness but we must discipline our everyday scattered minds before we can access this aspect.I liken this to balancing a move in yoga or gymnastics where strength and control must be used in conjunction with a relaxed open heart.

Eve

Eve, ego gratification does indeed get old, although I still find myself in its throes. Lately, though, when I try pursuing earthly delights in my lucid dreams, that deeper wisdom interferes. I am finding it more and more difficult to exert that kind of control over my dream characters. They simply will not cooperate! Clearly, the higher self is trying to teach me something, maybe save me from rebirth as a cockroach!

I have been reviewing my dream journal for examples of replication. I have a couple where I'm in a crowd, and as I notice how crowded it is, the crowd grows even larger. I have one where a wind blew harder and harder, and another where a drop off a balcony got higher and higher. I have no record of an experience quite like yours, though, where a single object replicates as I try to vanish it. Do you recall, did the figure perhaps vanish and reappear, or were two of him present simultaneously?

Paul

Paul,

If I remember correctly, In the dream where I saw a character I know, I told him to disappear. It seemd for a moment that they were gone only to have two identical persons appear after the command. In another lucid dream I saw a crowd of people after which I commanded them to meld into me, since they were my characters. Not only did they completely ignore me like robots, but they all were dressed the same like a crowd of clones!

I wonder too if a higher self is guiding me to create things that I do not expect or are in opposition to what I commanded, just to make a point that my conscious minds' choices are not the wisest. I think this happened in my last lucid dream where I tried to bring up a specific buddha image and instead I perceived an alive being/entity dressed like a sitting buddha, but not like any image Ive seen before.

There is another issue I'm wondering about with the quality and frequency of lucid dreams. On some days when I feel relaxed, confident about my meditation practice, or maybe I did something good or altruistic that day. Then I feel like I deserve a lucid dream. Oftentimes I will have a good lucid dream under these circumstances. Conversely if I feel like I didn't do well that day or no meditation, then there is this undertone of "guilt" like I dont deserve a lucid dream. It's silly, probably based on a Catholic "guilt" type of upbringing, with a negative expectation affecting my lucid dreaming frequency. I'll have to work on that one!

Eve

Paul and Eve..Acording to Edgar Cayce worlds most respected phycic..He talks of the [higher self] as a great advancment in ones life.. To always live by an Ideal is on step towards becoming your higher self..People who want to argue and fight with others and those who show bias and prejudice towards others are being their [LOWER SELVES].. To be your [higher self] is not easy for most people because they must give up all their negitive traits they must see the drunken bum as a human being and a friend of theirs..and make him welcome in their house..And also an equal.. How many people do you know like that? But if some stranger apears dangerous to you of course their comon sense kicks in... but regard most people with respect and live by good Ideals and your dreams will become more clerarer Cayce states.. So he states the way we live greatly afects our dreams.. cheers..Tom

Tom, I believe myself to be a compassionate and caring person, and devote much of my time to helping others, even drunks and drug addicts. However, in my lucid dreams I am frequently rather aggressive in my approach to my dream characters. Rather like Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde! I like to let Hyde run in my dreams, where, of course, there are no social restrictions or consequences.

That seems to be the opposite of what Mr. Cayce suggests.

Paul

Eve, how interesting! There may be something to what you say about feeling like one deserves, or perhaps has earned the right to a lucid dream on a particular day. The better I feel about myself, the more likely I am to have an LD, I think.

It might be useful to develop a practice to disassociate lucid dreaming from our fluctuating levels of self-esteem. Got any ideas how that might be accomplished?

Paul

Paul..If one has true control in a lucid dream and willingly alows Mr Hyde to run amuck doing devilish things to dream carectors..It would seem the true victom is the dreamer concidering the dream carectors are part of him? And can the true [consequence be the dream] itself? Concidering the dreamer [In control] of a lucid dream could find much more uplifting dream scapes to explore..Why sit outside the gates of heaven when with your dream control you could enter and experiance things at a limitless spiritual level and there for knock down the boundries and experiance total freedom..I think when mr Cayce speaks of channeling your higher self he is talking of a spiritual path for us to walk..If I ever learn to be lucid at will I want an endless universe to explore.. I supose mr hyde is just having fun as long as the dream police dont catch him..cheers..Tom

I know you're right about expectations. When you get the right frame of mind in dreams, you can easily do what you imagine. For example, just this morning I had a LD that I was trying to fly, whenever I used to fly I would sometimes expect to fly and sometimes not expect to fly (guess which times worked Anyway, I said to myself, this is rediculous! If I want to fly all I have to do is DO IT! The weight that was keeping me to the ground suddenly dissapeared and I kept going up and up! The buildings got smaller and smaller, then there was a roller coaster track that I decided to follow. Up down around! I stopped in mid-air, realized that I was more than satisfied and just looked up to the heavens. Letting myself fall downward, the heavens became my ceiling...peaceful sign

I think it's important to not only consider the conscious expectations that we have, but also the unconscious ones, and even the ones that are so engrained in our minds that we don't even realize that we have them.

A realization of the latter case helped me to fly in my lucid dreams. Whenever I would try to fly in my LDs, I would fail, even though I expected to able to since other LDers could do it. Then I realized, while awake, that when I normally jump, I tend to be in the mindset of stomping on something (a relic from childhood perhaps?) instead of being in the mindset of jumping up to something. Utilizing this "thinking up" concept is what enabled me to fly.

An instance of an unconscious expectation might be that trying to make a bully figure disappear might produce another bully since bullies tend to act more aggressively if you say "stop! stop!" Just a thought.

Hmm...I thought I was going somewhere with this, but it seems to have escaped me. Anyway, my point is to be aware of the full spectrum of expectations.

~Justin