Greetings Dreamers..I have been recalling my dreams and recording them now for over 6 months..Going to bed is now like living a seperate parallel life for me.. I now look at the wakeing world as a dream

[like] world as well! And look forward to a new adventure each night as I sleep. I havent even mastered lucidity yet even though I have had some lucid episodes..I do enjoy most of my normal dreams.. I look forward to learning lucidity. I hope to use it as a tool not so much as a toy..Ive often wondered about the {scripts of dreams.} Some dont make any sense at all. But most are well written! I guess we write our own dream stories?? But the way the mind does this must be amazing!Ive noticed that as I observe my dreams its like looking inside myself and as I look deeper and deeper It seems to cause some changes in a persons life. Mabey its called lucid living? But the overall process of dream recall over a long period seems to have a certain efect on a person! Its great! But what is it?? Any Ideas?? many cool dreams ..Tom

Here's one big "I told you so!" As I was working on my new website http://delta-gamer.com I saw this headline appear in an game industry site (www.gamasutra.com). The title is "Study Suggests Gaming Promotes Lucid Dreaming". It made me do a reality test right then and there. It's definetely 2:26 AM. The clock seems certain. This made me think of lucidity.com so I'm posting the text of the article here.

February 21, 2005

Study Suggests Gaming Promotes Lucid Dreaming Jayne Gackenbach, a professor of psychology and sociology at Grant MacEwan College, Canada has completed research which claims that video games alter the way the brain works. Gackenbach has been researching dreams for almost 30 years, and in 1997 she polled a group of her students on the effects gaming had on their dreams, with inconclusive results.

In 2004 she repeated the poll and found that frequent video game players have more "lucid dreams" (in which the dreamer is aware that they are dreaming) than non-gamers. Often, the dreamer can even manipulate the action or observe it in third-person, much like a video game.

"On an intuitive level, it makes sense," said Gackenbach."If you're spending a lot of time in a changeable virtual environment, it acts as a sort of practice for another virtual reality, dreams."

Gackenbach's research suggests the effects of video games on minds are much more complex. She even goes as far to suggest that video gaming may share some traits with deep meditation, in that both immerse the mind in a singular, deeply focused activity.

"Video games are changing how people's brains work, how they are wired," she said.

Interestingly, anecdotal evidence within gaming fandom usually cites early 90s titles such as Tetris and Doom as the most likely to inspire a dream, although not necessarily the lucid dreams described by Gackenbach.

-David Jenkins

I have actually seen many discussions about this in the gaming community. It's not just the virtual nature of the games... it's the hand and eye movement.

-Jason

Jason:

Hmm.

Maybe I should blow the dust off my Sega...

Hmm... maybe that's why I had so many LD's as a teen (I played A LOT of video games).

Thanks for sharing!

Peter

I just got a really good gaming computer, much to the dismay of my fiancee, hehehe. Now that I have a machine that can handle the latest games, I've been playing them a lot, much more than I used to. I'll report any increase in LD frequency here.

I wonder if this research can be used to make a game even more likely to lead to lucid dreaming in some way - say, by involving the user in a lot of activities that are particularly evocative of leaving the body or lucid dreaming. Perhaps the player would do things that would be similar to doing state tests while awake. Alternatively, some sort of biofeedback device, perhaps in association with something like the SuperNovaDreamer could be incorporated to enhance the effect. Full immersion VR would intuitively seem to more strongly produce this effect, especially if deliberately designed to do so.

a.

Just wanted to add that I could imagine a future game incorporating biofeedback and designed to deliberately facilitate lucid dreaming might be something like that game I've read about called Journey to Wild Divine, which comes with biofeedback devices and is designed to facilitate meditative states and inner growth.

a.

What interesting posts! I especially like the idea about developing a game specifically to build LD skills.

Do you happen to have Jayne's citation so we can read the article?

Paul

Just like to report in that i've had two LDs since getting a new computer/games on friday.

Hi Jason

Did the LD's have any obvious connection to the games, or to gaming in general? I'm not suggesting that there would need to be such an obvious connection in order for the LD's to be the result of playing the games; I'm just wondering. Another question: how does this compare to your usual frequency of LD'ing?

a.

As for the frequency, I'd say it's somewhat above, I generally have about 1 a week, or about 5 or 6 total per month. As for the dreams themselves, I can't say conlusively that they're the result of the gaming, but the theory makes sense to me. I'd bet that it's more of a subconcious thing. Imersing yourself in a "false" world where you have control over basically everything can probably get your mind "used" to that, and it would carry over into dreams. The games I've been playing are the first person shooter type. I bet these are the best kind of game for this theory because you're completely inside of and navigating around a false environment that you control (as opposed to a game like Tetris or something). I'm sure it wouldn't necessarily have to be a "shooter" though. Plus, a lot of these types of games have cheat codes built into them so that you can walk through walls, fly, etc. Could almost be like practice!

This is my first time back to the forum since my last post. After that post I went to google to find interesting gaming sites. I clicked on a link and wound up at http://www.gamedegree.com/ . It's hosted at the university I was attending when I first started posting here at lucidity.com. I liked their color scheme so changed the look of my own website.

Like I mentioned, I was attending that college and learning what it takes to make computer games at the time I began work on a psychology project on lucid dreams. It was the dreams that made me decide to learn more about games so let's backtrack.

I bought a Sony Playstation some time in the late '90s. The very first thing I did was played Oddworld Abe's Exodus. When I say I played it, I mean I played it from start to finish-- in one sitting. Somewhere between 16 and 19 hours of solid play. I was trying for the perfect game. Everyone saved, all secret areas explored, all puzzles solved and NO GAME SAVES. I was right about to finish when I realized I had to work in 3 hours. I turned out the lights and layed down. Within a minute of closing my eyes the weird stuff began. My eyes and fingers began twitching. Then I started seeing stuff. Not just any stuff. It was Abe. He was doing all of the running and jumping and problem solving and the exploding and my eyes were following him in everything. Here's something more interesting, my hands were moving. They were moving as if they were pressing the buttons on the controller. I don't mean that my hands went straight out in front of me or anything. They stayed at my sides. But the fingers and thumbs were pressing the buttons that would be under them if they were holding a controller and guiding this dream Abe. The whole thing was like one big WILD. It went on as long as I kept my eyes close and layed still. I opened my eyes a few times because my entire body would react sometimes when the dream Abe would get blown up or shot.

In 1999 I fell asleep at about 2 AM after playing several games for many hours. I was awakened by the words "Prove Your Might!". For those of you who don't know, that's from the Mortal Kombat games. I looked across the room at the TV and there was a commercial for UACT (now UAT). A few hours later I was enrolled.

Since then I have had many such game dreams. Yes, Adastra, the dream content does seem to follow the game content. More recently I have had lucid dreams inspired by playing Clive Barker's Undying. That's a very unconventional first person shooter with occult themes. Flying, walking through walls, magical stones, very cool stuff.

I just have to say that I have been one busy bee lately and haven't been sleeping much. I mean 4 hours or less for the last couple of weeks. Last night I had about 6 hours. Before waking I had a series of short lucid dreams. Two of them were set at my old college. There was no game content though.

I almost forgot that I wanted to explain something that I had mentioned in my previous post. I think that the lucid dreams have more to do with the repeated hand and eye movements than with anything mentioned in the article I quoted. Take my Oddworld example. I was playing intensely for more hours than many poeple stay awake each day. All of that time my eyes and hands were moving rapidly. When I layed down they were still moving rapidly. And the mind was still finding better ways to solve Abe's puzzles. I think, but am in no way certain (I have no way of checking) that all of that intense gameplay has an effect on not just dream content but also on REM latency. All I have is anecdote from myself and several other gamers, but I think this deserves more attention.

Adastra, I bought "Journey to Wild Divine", so I'll let you know if it stimulates LDs.

Paul

Hi All..I remember a very vivid dream I had months ago where It started inocently enough but sudenly was riding at night in a strangers car..For some reason I started to feel threatened by my situation.. At no time did I remember being aware I was dreaming.. but when my situation started getting scary I remember thinking..[I DONT HAVE TO TAKE THIS!! ILL JUST WAKE UP] Soon after I said this in my dream I quickly woke up.. What confuses me is..If I didnt remember any awareness that I was In a dream while the dream was hapening..HOW COULD I MAKE A REMARK LIKE THAT???? Because that remark had dream awareness behind it! Is It posable to be aware that you are dreaming while dreaming and recall much of the dream.. BUT FORGET THE FACT THAT YOU KNEW YOU WERE DREAMING?? Could my mind be treating my [dream awareness] as something of [less importance? Than the dream itself? Like..first priority dream..second priority awareness? anyone else ever experiance this????........ Is It posable to forget you were aware or mabey the awareness was only a low degree of awareness?.. Tom..

Hi Tom

What you're describing sounds like tacit lucidity, which I have at times experienced. For me it's a kind of subtle awareness that doesn't get up to the level where you explicitly describe it to yourself as dreaming, but at some level you know what's going on - you recognize the state you're in has a certain set of rules which differ from the normal waking state. In one dream I had I was walking along looking at something in my hand and I was making it change into different forms "as if I was dreaming" - that is how I described it to myself while the experience was happening - but I did not go on to think, "Hey, wait a minute - I am dreaming!!" This kind of tacit lucidity can be quite puzzling. Once I dreamt that I was defending a woman I was with against a violent male, and suddenly realized I could destroy him with laser blasts from my eyes - I then did so, after first kicking him in the head and saying, "This is my dream, asshole!" Immediately after dispatching him, I was in a room with my eyes closed feeling that I did the wrong thing by killing him. Opening my eyes I saw that I was being observed by someone I knew, and apologetically told her, "Sorry, I was just having a dream moment." All of this was very matter of fact, and when I woke up from this I didn't feel that I had been fully lucid in the dream.

This phenomenon seems to illustrate that any behavior can become habitual, even recognizing that you are in a dream and acting accordingly, somehow without quite fully "waking up" to the state you are in.

One other note; I've also had dreams that were not even tacitly lucid in the sense we are describing - I did not do or say anything which indicated awareness of my true state - yet in which I experienced moments of clarity which were above and beyond what I experience while awake. It's like being super-present to the moment - yet not realizing it is a dream moment.

a.

Quote:

Adastra, I bought "Journey to Wild Divine", so I'll let you know if it stimulates LDs.

Paul

Cool, I'll look forward to hearing about that.

I've been toying with the idea of a computer game that would be particularly helpful in stimulating awareness of the dream state. Perhaps one idea would be to have the game start with the point of view character leaving his/her body, and then the action of the game would center around trying to get back to it. You could end up in various rooms in which you would see your body lying in bed, but either the body, or the room, would be altered in a small or large way in the manner of dreams - so you still have not come back to your real body, only another dream body. Any dream scenario you could imagine might come into play here, for example mirrors as portals; flying in "astral realms" or fighting demonic figures in the "lower astral realm"; shadow figures who become figures of light if you work the game play properly; Castaneda type scenarios, etc. It would also be really cool if you could load a digitized image of yourself into the game so that you would really see yourself as the sleeping character and the dreambody duplicate.

As a full-immersion VR game of the future, I think it would have real possibilities, especially if combined with some sort of biofeedback device which would also be used while you sleep. Or even to have various light-based phenomena which would be evocative of NovaDreamer effects, and then use the ND while sleeping. Or the dream could have all kinds of dreamsigns, and recognizing them could be part of the game play somehow.

At any rate, it's been fun to think about.

a.

Paul,

Let us know what you think of "Journey to Wild Divine," even if it doesn't improve lucid dreaming. I'm curious to know what you think of it. It sounds interesting.

John

John, will do!

Paul

Hello Everyone,

Another good viewing tool to initiate Lucidity is the DVD "Alien Adventure" You will be in the first person perspective racing in roller coaster fashion. You can bookmark the strategic areas and just view those before going to bed. You can order it from www.dvdplanet.com. Also you can download the Trial Version of Bejewelled 2 Deluxe, game with jewel matching, really easy to play. Go into the Classic Version, after you complete levels, a multi-colored spiral swirls you thru a wormhole at a rapid pace. Might help as well. This is on most gaming sights. Try PopCap

Patricia

Hi All..As I was doing my morning twenty lap jog this morning a very old dream image came to my atention..I sudenly remembered a dream or trance image I experianced as a young kid..For many years since I was 10 years of age this dream image would reimerge to my atention and I could never understand what It ment..It always seemed important to me.. As a child I was at my grandmothers getting in to things you know how kids can get.. I was told to go outside and play..I remember going outside and sitting in a chair..I must have been a little sleepy because I lowered my head and dozed off very briefly..As I did this I experianced a very vivid and lifelike dream vision..As I sat in the chair outside I saw an open book on my lap and a gentle breese turned each page as they fluttered from right to left in front of me..In the very short dream I felt the breese as It turned the [I Think] blank pages I also felt the movement of time and got the sense that this was special and important and I will always remember it.. And over the years I did remember it as It surfaced every now and then.I could be wrong but I feel Ive put the mystery of that dream In In front of me.Its posable that that book represented my life a story yet to be written..That book may have represented my dream jurnals over 30 years in the future to come? Thats how it seems any way..cool dreams..Tom..

I am about 90% through the Journey to Wild Divine game. Thanks, Adastra, for bringing it to my attention. I absolutely love it! I've been playing for a bit more than a week now and althrough my lucid dreaming rate is up a bit, but I don't know if I can attribute it to the game. I do know that the Wild Divine world is beautiful and welcoming and I have to stop myself from spending too much time on it. (Not a moment wasted, I might add.) I haven't encountered anything so accessible that promotes such peace within me and extended periods of 'waking lucidity'. This game IS something special.

Hi All..As I was driving somewhere this morning I was listening to a radio station that usualy talks about diferent health and nutrition issues every weekend..This time they were talking about [BRAIN FOOD]..They sugested that their natural formula for brain nutrition worked best and people reported an increase in [MEMORY SKILLS] and other mental funtions at work..They claimed their brains were [SUPERCHARGED] from the formula..They claimed they breezed through their work day with increased mental ability and much better memory skills and energy.. Since [MEMORY] is so important in lucid dreaming could this brain nutrition help boost the brains ability towards lucid dreaming? They claimed [three key ingredants] at just the right amounts.. their names sounded kinda scientific.. Sadly I did not write the names of the ingrediants down.Could [serious brain nutrition] make that kind of improvement in brain performance? If so could the benifits carry over to help with lucid dreaming? It seemes to me that the brain prefers a certain kind of nutrition and if It gets it..Wont It would perform better? Does anyone know anything about brain food and its efects? Regards..Tom

Guys:

Your posts are of course most welcome, but please try to make them under the appropriate forum topics rather than the "open conversation" cover page. That way other participants simply browsing the Forum will be able to find, and respond to your posts.

There are topics that cover each of the above subjects you've discussed. I know they can be difficult to find sometimes (though a keyword search makes it easier), but your effort will be most appreciated by all.

Thanks for cooperating!

Peter

TLI Forum Moderator

Is it possible to talk to your astral body and have it talk back?

thank you

Simon Canning

Simon.. In a dream anything is posable!

Hi Simon,

I'm not quite sure I understand your question.

Another name for your "astral body" is "dream body" - it doesn't exist separately from you per se. It's just another vehicle for your consciousness, and it isn't really necessary for dreaming or OBE's (astral projection...) When you get down to it, your mind/consciousness creates your dream body so that it/you can perceive from a specific perspective. I don't want to get to far off-track from the purpose of this forum (lucid dreaming) since the moderators have all been so cool and have never warned me about such infractions

Let's say that within the realm of dreaming (lucid or otherwise) anything is possible, including carrying on quite detailed conversations with dream characters, whether they inhabit their own disctinct form or your own. Of course, since they are dream characters, they are more-than-likely "You..." or even "higher" versions of you.

Keith

Hi Simon,

Regarding your question about conversing with your "astral body" in a lucid dream, you might find this article of interest: http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Is there a particular question you would ask?

Curious minds! Keelin

Hi Keelin! It would be great if studies/polls could be taken today, since the internet has cartainly brought together the 'like-minded'!

I can see the arguments in the article, but at least for me, and probably another half-zillion others who practice regularly, (and we are tending to shy away from 'semantics'), so much more is understood and come to light regarding the big LD vs 'other realms' debate.

But right now, OBE's are considered by many as RTZ events, and AP's are astral events (and akin to the lucid dreaming phenomena...IF one falls into what we call the 'land of a million wanderings', ie LDing...which is considered a pitfall when attempting to reach 'other' levels) Sorry, I am trying to be concise here. And then when phasing 'within'....oh well, this is off topic and is Not LD'ing!

(I recently rtz'd and read a page at the end of a fiction I had been reading. I even re-read it to do an RC (to see if I had fallen prey to LD). Sure enough, when I checked the page in reality, it was what I read in rtz!...it's nothing more than a form of remote viewing, not LD, anyway, but it was a success for me. although I ruined the rest of the story, knowing the ending:-/)

Anyway, conversing with yourself can be some wicked fun as well as life changing experiences, depending on 'where' you are conducting this. But I will only tell of my encounter in LD here though to stay on topic and not bore you with the other realms;-)

I had a recent LD when I finallllly got some sleep (pain has brought my life to a screeching halt lately, and so too my sleep and dreams:-( I had a fleeting thought about seeing myself in the mirror before getting to sleep. I had an FA (trying to seek the frozen ice bottles as I do on occasion for my back) and I ended up in the bathroom where we have a huge mirror. I realized I was not awake, and then realized, "Hey, I am pain free! This is Great!" I turned and looked at myself in the mirror, wondering what I'd look like in an LD. Unfortunately, the same old ugly mug stared right back at me, just as in waking life. But I was glad to see I had not grown fur nor fangs either. I spent some time communicating mentally with my 'reflection' (which was more than just a reflection...hard to describe)

Then I walked into myself in the mirror.....

What was also pretty cool about this was that my....what I call 'overself'...awareness, which usually dominates my dreams and prevents me (my dream character "me") from gaining hi lucidity, quietly lurked in the background and watched, as usual. Now this is typical for me (prob for everyone else, not sure) but what was neat was also being able to watch my 'character-self' actually disappear. This was the FIRST time my 'overself' has allowed my lowly character-self do this! It was as though I had been let off the leash. The experience going into my reflection, well, there are no words to describe this!

Okay, that's my measly 2 cents with not only conversing, but .....(and off into the twilight zone!)

I hope you are recovering from another successful DC!

hugs and Hang Lucid, always!

AK (I'm actually ready to hang from a noose instead! aarrgggghh!)

Dear AK,

The lucid dream account in which you noticed you were "pain free!" reminds me of an interesting application for lucid dreaming that Stephen LaBerge introduced during our recent workshop in Hawaii. When asked what he currently chooses to pursue in his personal lucid dreams, he replied that one of the things he does is to clearly recall -- and then vividly experience -- the feeling of complete "well-being". Seems a wonderful way to recharge both body and spirit with a refreshed memory of health and wholeness. A memory which can fade so easily with the daily stresses of waking life concerns.

Thanks for sharing your lucid dream which is sure to inspire -- and which also sparked my memory and intention to bring this gem from DreamCamp to the Forum and share it with all who weren't able to attend the program.

May you be pain free in all realms! Keelin

Hi Miss Keelin! Yes, that was indeed quite an experience! I remember we touched briefly on the subject at our DC andit got me to thinking (uh oh...)

I contacted some of my peers in (other realm) commnunities who are mental / remote healers. I had been having literally NO success with mentally 'working' on myself for my train wreck. I inquired to others if this seemed the case. Many did agree that focusing healing on yourself seems to just not work...but let me clarify...and I'll get to the dream part(!) It seems many remote healers who practice regularly 'working' on others (known or unknown people) and have a 'coincidentally' good (if not unbelievable) success rates, but when focus is turned on the self...nothing works! (Not to mention it's not much of a confidence builder!) But on the other hand, people who do not delve regularly in this practice, have the ability (IF they think about using it) to at least help to heal themselves in their own mental work. But this is Not the case with everyone...as is with virtually everything-

This is when I mentioned the dreamwork and the possibilities and I am still getting some wonderfully interesting feedback. We are now working on getting my dreams programmed to do some successful healing work in dreamland, since I am getting seemingly nowhere in the waking. And also just knowing that your perfectly healthy dreambody is possible...translating that into the waking should also be possible! Everything else is, so why not?

Since reality is a product of our thoughts, and dreams are also in the equation, then it makes perfect sense what Stephen said at DC about healing potentials in our dreamscapes! Fascinating:-) Now I'm more than ready to pull it off!

Is there still some consideration about developing 'Graduate seminars' as we talked about at the end of DC...even for DC flunkies??? If Stephen ever decided to hit the road with weekend seminars on topics like this... :-D

comforting dreams, always;-) ak

Hey AK,

I'm not familiar with your symptoms or their "physical" cause (train wreck?) but I thought I would offer the following:

Instead of trying to use your dreams to heal the symptoms, have you tried to use them to find the underlying cause(s)?

Please forgive me if I sound overly simplistic here, but sometimes it is helpfull to be reminded. And in reminding you, I just may remind myself. "Re" "Mind"...

Anyway, most, if not all, ailments and injuries are are physical symptoms of some psychological (you can use the term psychic if you want) issue, injury, energy blockage, etc.

If you have some type of ongoing physical symptom without an immediate physical cause, can you relate it to any trauma? Or is there something in your mental, emotional, or spiritual life, that you just haven't dealt with?

Our physical bodies are outward reflections of our inner lives, and the product of our consciousness...

I bring this up now, because over the weekend I had a very long "semi" lucid dream that involved almost 1/2 a dozen lifesigns...not dream signs, but hints and signals from my subconcious about things I've been thinking about and/or not changing or dealing with, that have been resulting in some very physical symptoms.

Keith

Hiya Keith! Really interesting you bring this up! But you are indeed right in what you say. My first experience with this concept was with my Silva instructor, who is also a shaman. He took 4 days to teach the Silva course, but also added so much more, and this "method" was one! Coming from a medical family (I was the only smart one who turned and ran, screaming!...kidding) this was something I was not so sure about...this Is only Alternative healing, right? But I was singled out during the class and used as the guinea pig for the practicals. Boy, was my left-brain analytical, (then) type-A personality crushed, dragged thru the mud and left behind to rot! Not only is 'seeing believing' but Doing, is the real confidence builder. Anyway, after witnessing what this man has accomplished over the last 15 yrs, since I've known him, I've certainly become better balanced, and open-minded.

Unfortunately this nagging problem, is from past accidents and wear and tear...and neglect. I've exhausted the "other" possibilities. All my breaks have been accident-induced. Young, dumb, invincible. I can say however, that I was able to 'remedy' 2 more broken noses (didn't know I had that many!) (Dad fixed the first one -yeeowch!) From then on, I worked very hard with mind over matter. The ramification for getting hurt was far worse than the injury itself! I also crushed t-10 in my back from a crash on a steeplechase course. But I never knew this until back xrays 7 yrs later from a head-on with drunk driver. I knew something was obviously wrong, but was too terrified to let it be known; intense mental work though! And some others: ribs, collarbones, (easy to heal on own anyway) nothing to cry over, easy to mentally fix (For ME, that is!!!) Yes, mind over matter is powerful tool, but fear of your own family 'fixing' you is also a powerful motivator too!

I can't complain, 9/10 isn't a bad score. This lower back problem has been a struggle for 15+ yrs, and the last 2, something finally gave out one day in the cockpit and it's been downhill since. All my tricks just have not been effective, just temporary. I am trying for more LD's but that's a challenge with aggravated sleep. I was amazed at the feeling of being totally pain free in that one dream! I didn't realize how long it's been and how much of a difference either! But I am not giving up. I still make the effort, but I've had to give in and am seeing the top neuro team in Tx. The waiting list was forever, but I used a trick to make it a couple of weeks. I have a few areas of problems, but not the cause of pain, so they're still chasing that snake down. I've told my diag. doc what's not the problem, and he only says "how do you know?" and only after wasted shots (11 of them) does he agree..gads! "see, told ya so!" Only now are we getting to the real source. I go for a discogram tomorrow. Perhaps I'll even have a waking lucid nightmare when both my dad and sister will walk in to do the procedure and have me cornered...!

Maybe I'll try black magic...haven't used that in awhile;-)

Thanks again for the thoughts! It certainly has some powerful potential and more people should know/learn about it, too. Certainly save on unnecessary med bills!

:-) ak born-again voodooist

AK,

(I'm speechless)

Keith

PS Hang in there - like you had a choice;)

Keith, sent email; thanks for updates!

Miss Keelin was the star of my latest show, too!

I had another very fortunate 'event' and LD over the course of about 5 days. I've written the details out, but am sending them to Miss Keelin since she was integral in sending me a message to keep my 'bottom-half', Tim out of harm's way! (This makes 7 events for this year)

Last week, I was having some bad feelings, but I didn't know why. They grew more intense as days passed. I thought maybe I was getting worked up over the next back procedure, because of all the horror stories, but when that came and went (nothing to it either, I got some yummy cookies afterwards as a reward for not punching anyone out!)

But I still couldn't shake the nagging feeling that something bad was going to happen, so I set my intent to find out some info, as usual.

I'm not going to get into the LD/'other'(obe/ap/ibe) debate, but I "fnally" found myself underwater (as Patricia had suggested) and met Miss Keelin in a beautiful coral reef! She was in her scallop shell, and Paul swam around the reef keeping guard (but he was a barracuda) He wanted to eat me, but I petted him instead (I have a pet barracuda on one of my platforms, they're easy to tame).

The purpose of my conversation with Miss Keelin, and subsequent events, gave me insight. But it seemed to center on a recent event that had already passed. For that event, I'd had a premonitory LD, (nightmare form hell, actually)and it happened 2 weeks later. My life was spare, but I have since resigned from my company because of horrendous safety issues.

So I was confused. I needed to go back to Miss Keelin's reef and get more info. And I did just 2 nights ago. In an LD, I did return to the reef and I found the info and clarified that it was Not me this time, in danger, but my husband, Tim (also a pilot). That morning, I told him what I saw and feared and told him to call the 'boss'. Sure enough, He is due to start a contract tomorrow, and last minute plans had indeed changed and he was to fly an aircraft that nearly killed him last year. (That is another success story!) The type model helicopter has a defective part, but the manufacturer is STILL trying to keep it undercover. More operators have surfaced who have had the same failure of this part, and unbelievably no fatalities (happened on the ground, or in a hover, on final, etc). (The faulty part holds the rotor blade in place, when it breaks, the blade departs from the aircraft - catastrophic, no one will survive this inflight...ugh!) The Company only wants revenue and suffers from "this won't happen to me" syndrome, esp since it already happened once, with Tim onboard.

But thankfully, Tim has stood his ground and refuses to fly this model (with Any company) and is willing to lose his contract if it comes to it. He is not a gambler, and knows to heed my insights/warnings, regardless of how stupid they may seem at times. I have yet to have ever been 'misinformed'. The 'case' has been reopened and investigation continues into this defected part. Unfortunately, hundreds of these helicopters still fly on a daily basis (offshore, ems, fires, tours, etc). But in the 'end' everyone is responsible for themselves...

All of my feelings of unease disappeared immediately after his decision. Whew, once again, and another heartfelt 'thank you' to my guardians, one being Miss Keelin this time!!!

keep hanging 'L', all! ;-)

Ashley, darlin',

Thank you for sending me the detailed version of your wonderful dream. I was delighted to be a character in that beautiful undersea world you conjured. And the bit about Paul was just tooo funny!

I know I don't have to say to you & Tim, "Take good care of each other." You're doing a fine job.

Much love to you both, Keelin

PS: Don't forget: YOU are the pearl. ;)

I fail to see the humor!

Paul

Dear Paul,

Oops -- Sorry! I forgot that the amusing part was in the email that AK sent me directly. Didn't mean for my comment to come off sounding as it did.

Warm aloha, Keelin

When the Forum has become a place to share private jokes at the expense of other members, I guess it is time to leave.

Happy dreams, Paul

Dear Paul,

Once again, my sincere apologies for the earlier comment, which I can now see was unfair to post out of context. As I hope you know, no hurt was intended, and I'm truly sorry that I misjudged your sensitivity.

Forgiven? Keelin

Paul, relax... I didn't know Keelin sent an email out to everyone when she replied to mine. I sent her a much more detailed version of the LDs I shared here, but wanted her to decide if she wanted to keep it personal/private, since she was my messenger.

You were a player too, as you were the sole guardian of this incredible coral reef, Your reef, and a determined protector of Miss Keelin and you kept a vigillant patrol of your territory. The 'funny' part to Keelin was that she called you "Palu", instead of Paul. (and we discussed many NICE things about you!) Palu, to her, fit the theme...but I guess you had to be there... Oh, you were! ;-)

So, certainly nothing to pop a vein over:-)

AK, I had already decided that I was resigning as moderator and leaving the Forum before reading your post, which was really only a minor straw among many other more critical difficulties, including my waning interest in lucid dreaming in favor of other pursuits.

Relax? Actually, I used to use the Forum to relax, but lately it just annoys me.

Love and light to those remaining. Paul

But Paul,

You're going to sleep and dream anyway - Isn't that one of the great things about dreaming and lucid-dreaming? They don't take any "extra" time!

I know, I know...

Well, staying or going, good luck Man.

Keith

Hi Ashley, Very insightful LD you wrote above. Glad you had the Underwater Experience. I really enjoy it when my LDs are around water as then I know I can swim and actually feel the water while knowing I am Dreaming and not really get wet!

Patricia