Greetings, dreamers!

Lately I am intrigued by the question, "Who is dreaming?". Being a novice lucid dreamer, I have fallen into the error of thinking that my dream persona is actually myself and is therefore the dreamer, the absolute master of my dream world (What an ego!). Recently through my reading I have gained some understanding of this fallacy, so I have set myself a goal of disabusing myself of this illusion in the next lucid dreams I have (soon, I hope).

I would be interested in hearing how others may have broken through this ego-based barrier to the higher lucidity of realizing that the dream persona is just another dream character. How does this understanding come about, how does it change the experience, and is it still fun? When I'm in the dream, the power and freedom are so distracting, I have never stopped to think that I'm just a dream figure myself!

Happy dreams, Paul

Paul:

A note of caution: don't be too quick to dismiss your Self from your dreams!

At the risk, or perhaps in the hope, of inviting another barrage of clarification from Stephen ' Isn't lucid dreaming all about the ability of the dreamer to be cognizant of his presence in a dream? And, by extension, can't that recognition potentially confirm that you are indeed the absolute master of your dream world? After all, barring any future metaphysical discoveries concerning cosmic consciousness, alternate dimensions and such, the entire universe of your dream is, by definition, you. Isn't it?

I think I understand that you are discussing the transcendence of the persona your sleeping mind has generated for a particular dream (please correct me if I'm wrong). But then you lose me. Isn't the power and freedom that you feel in your lucid dream representative of your dismissal of the persona assigned to that particular dream? For instance, if you lucidly fly out of a dream scene, you are clearly not doing a thing your mind originally intended that persona to do. By assuming, proclaiming, or practicing the notion that you are the absolute master of your dream, you might just be helping to maintain lucidity, and opening new doors to creativity, knowledge of yourself, and fun.

The only trap I can see here is if your mind creates a persona who believes he is experiencing lucidity, but is really not cognizant of the dream, and is just performing the role of lucid dreamer based on your mind's unconscious wishes/expectations. And they tell me (repeatedly) that that can't happen.

So, in your own experience you may already have breached the ego-based barrier you mention. Don't sell yourself short before you have a chance to fully break through!

Peter

P.S. Also, this awareness of self, or stepping away from the persona of the moment, works well in waking life, too! LD'ing can be excellent practice for it.

Peter,

I was basing my comments on what I've learned from reading Stephen's first book, "Lucid Dreaming", and also Jane Gackenbach's book on the subject. There is a trap that novice lucid dreamers and novice dream Yoga practitioners may apparently fall into of believing that the dream images of themselves are actually dreaming the dream, and therefore they have the right to do anything they like to anyone else in the dream. Stephen says that such dreamers tend to use the phrase "my dream" a lot, and are not fully lucid, since they think that they are real, while everyone else is just a product of their minds. Fully lucid dreamers know that they also are being dreamed by the true dreamer, whoever that is.

I recognize that this is pretty much the state of affairs in the LDs I have, so I'm hoping to get past this into a state of full lucidity. This means, of course, that the dream ego must stop running the show, stop exerting control, and take a back seat to something higher in the dream.

Sounds a lot like "regime change". And I think this tyrant, my dream ego, is a little afraid to relinquish the power, which after all is just as intoxicating (and corrupting?) as absolute power is in the waking world. Honestly, I do enjoy feeling like I'm running the show in my dreams. It's like a dream come true, isn't it, compared to the facts of waking life, where so much is controlled by others?

Still, it does seem to me to be clinging to an illusion, and ultimately, for the sake of growth into something better, I want to get past it.

"The truth shall set you free!", the man said. Let's hope so.

Paul

Paul:

Thanks for clarifying; I understand what you meant now ' sorry it always takes at least two tries with me!

Now that I get it, I'll throw in my two cents:

You're right ' that "ego" barrier is troublesome, but it won't be impossible now that you've recognized it and can work the goal of hurdling it into your daily LD preparations.

I'm totally confident that you'll manage this feat and tame (or at least establish a détente with) your tyrannical ego. And don't worry about losing out on the power and freedom; consciously understanding your role in the dream tends to enhance, not diminish, the fun!

Regarding your very first question: Perhaps you could set a goal of asking, "Who is dreaming?' during your next lucid dream. The act of successfully posing the question might help you scale the next step. And who knows? You might get an answer!

Peter

Alan:

I was being facetious when I mentioned the cloth, sorry! When I wipe a dream slate clean, the action involves little more than knowing that the current dream scene won't be there in a moment, and then simply waiting for it to vacate. I did have one dream (at dream camp) where I swung my arm with a flourish and the dream scene, a street cafe, blew away in a gale of ethereal wind -- much to the surprise of the characters seated at the tables!

When I create environments, they arrive all at once. I do indeed pull them from memory, or from worlds imagined during waking (which I guess would also be memory). When I've tried to generate one image at a time the scene doesn't hold together.

I didn't mention 'others,' did I? I guess that could be because I've always had a problem with 'others.' It seems that my dreams are peopled almost exclusively with strangers. A few family members turn up occasionally (never in LD's - odd in itself!), my wife is often present, and Keelin of course turns up regularly, but beyond that I have no idea who these people are. That obscurity continues when I speak to them in LD's: they never tell me anything, though they are always friendly and act as if I know them. I have explored this, by questioning them (vigorously during a couple of emotional LD moments), following them, even jumping into their skins (very cool regardless), but all I get is that they are total strangers, with no apparent connection to me beyond their one-sided familiarity, or even to the dream itself. I've even had dreams that I call "other people's dreams" where everything -- the people, the scenery, the plot, even the emotional themes, are alien to me. Hmmm ' I sure hope I didn't betray a serious psychological problem!

So, because of that, when lucidity is strong enough to do some serious exploring, I tend to leave other people behind. My loss, perhaps, but they bought their ticket...

Best of dreams,

Peter

Just reread my last post and noticed it ties in nicely with this thread -- with all those strangers, I have to wonder who is dreaming, don't I? ;)

Peter, Alan, et. al.

This thread cuts right to the meat of much that I ponder over in dreams, lucid or not.

Peter, lately I've noticed that other characters vanish once I begin to exert some control over the dream. Since I engage in prearranged tasks in most of my LDs, I am mostly alone. Folks are only around when I am passive, such as at the start of the dream, and as you say there's usually no one I recognize. I have seen family members, however, during a more active phase of lucid dreaming. Paradoxically, my nonlucid dreams are almost exclusively about family, and are highly charged emotionally. Come to think of it, it seems that people and emotional content vary together in dreams. I wonder if there's a connection.

Peter, when you're lucid, aren't you still a dream self, just one that knows itself to be a dream self? You know that you are being dreamed. How could you be more lucid than that and still be dreaming? Clearly, you can't escape the dream as a vehicle for consciousness when you are asleep. You're never the sleeping brain perse, are you? I don't believe the dreaming brain has the capacity for self-awareness at that level. Neither does the awake brain, I think.

Paul

Hi Paul, Peter, Alan, et al,

Recently, I've begun reading "Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying" (an account of dialogues from the fourth Mind and Life conference 'tween the Dali Lama and western scientists). In her presentation, Jane Gackenback claims that research on lucid dreams has found that "there were fewer dream characters in lucid dreams than in non-lucid dreams."

In my reading of the book so far, I've not seen any speculation as to why this may be so. But it would seem that when other characters are present, it's natural to become either engaged with them or distracted by them. Otherwise occupied, we become less inclined towards self-reflection, which is essential to questioning our state and reaching lucidity. From this perspective, the degree of emotional involvement in our interactions with dream characters would certainly become an influential factor. (Of course this applies to lucidity in waking as well!)

What a fascinating topic! I look forward to more of this level of discussion in the lanai at Kalani. ;)

Just another character in your waking dream, Keelin

Hi Keelin,

That's very interesting.

This has usually been my experience, too.

Not sure if you've seen the movie Waking Life, which amongst other things explores lucid dreaming and interracting with many different characters, dealing out self-development and learnings.

Adam

Paul:

You asked:

"when you're lucid, aren't you still a dream self, just one that knows itself to be a dream self?"

That's an excellent question! But why not:

"When you're lucid you're still a dream self, but one who knows himself to be the dreamer?"

There is a subtle but important difference there, I think. That recognition, that acceptance, that it is all You might just help bring your state to something beyond lucid dreaming, something more connected with the inner, to date untreadable, corridors of your mind.

Perhaps if this state occurs you are indeed no longer dreaming; you have escaped the dream as a vehicle for consciousness while sleeping. Perhaps, with real effort, you can become the sleeping brain! And then you could prove that the dreaming brain has the capacity for self-awareness at that level, as does the waking brain. Subtle differences, sure, but if real they are significant.

Okay, now I must take my leave and go hoist my creature up through the roof and into the thunderstorm.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Hi Adam!

We've shown Rick Linklater's "Waking Life" a few of times at past Dreaming and Awakening retreats. Stephen has a wonderful collection of inspiring and wonderfully bizarre films. Sometimes it's hard to choose which ones to include in the program. So many films, so few nights!

;) Keelin

I believe that categorising this phenomena may be the way to get a grip on what's happening.

It's very interesting that both Peter and keelin report less dream characters in lucid dream than in non-lucid dream, and Paul observes that the occurrence of dream characters in lucid dream diminishes in proportion to the degree of control exerted by the dream 'i'.

Therefore I propose the categories of the conscious mind and the unconscious mind, with the former 'represented' by the dream 'I', and the latter by all the avolitional dream content, i.e. by everything in the dream that the 'i' does not generate.

This paradigm would explain how increasing control by the conscious 'I' diminishes occurrence of dream characters - because such control 'pushes out' contents and characters generated by the unconscious.

The unconscious or subconscious mind is often characterised as the greater part of the mind - like the below-surface part of an iceberg. And the history of psychiatry acknowledges it as such, with Freud and Jung being recent champions of alternative interpretations. Therefore it may be useful to interpret the dream environment as subject to the same rules as the waking environment. That is, the daytime consciousness (the 'I') screens out or suppresses the mind's subconscious content. In Stephen's memorable phrase:

"When the dominant daytime sun of consciousness sets, we are able to see the other stars which are always there unseen."

The subconscious mind is commonly characterised (and demonised) as the home of undesirable impulses and monsters, but also as the place where wisdom and inspiration are to be gained - as in shamanistic practice, for instance.

That's about as far as I can take this hypothesis - other than to reiterate my intention to let the subconscious have its say in my lucid dreams, and to hesitantly suggest that aspirations based on the project of developing greater 'I' control in them may be missing the point.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Oh, and you might enjoy (especially Keelin) seeing my attempt to picture the LD environment in the painting 'Dream04' at:

http://homepage.mac.com/alantun

Click on 'Alan Tunbridge's artworks at the top of the opening page.

Alan,

When contemplating on the above mentioned observation, I too have noticed a great shift from many characters in the non lucid dream, to fewer and fewer characters when getting lucid. I then choose to interact with maybe one or two of the stronger remaining characters for any insights or teachings.

Perhaps when we become more mindful of our own self and sentient experience, (lucidity) then the subconscious mind has no need to disssociate off these unexpressed parts of the self. Maybe lucidity itself is a form of subconscious integration, so that the need for multiple characters decreases.

This concept reminds me of a common therapeutic technique used by therapists for clients who want to heal their inner child. When the inner child isn't listened to, healed or marginalized in any way, then that aspect of repressed personality will manifest itself in problematic ways in outer and inner dream reality. Maybe simple acknowledgement of that "aspect of self" is all that is needed to integrate this part. I suppose the same thing can apply to adult aspects of our experience that have been marginalized, when they need acceptance.

Eve

All valid points, Eve. But Peter's experience seems to indicate that the end of exerting control in LD is to stand in a deserted environment waiting for something to happen. I overstate this, Peter, of course - and would appreciate your input on it.

If we view LD as a shamanistic exercise, then the dominance of the 'I' would indeed reduce manifestations of the 'spirit world' - to use the older terminology for what must be the same phenomena (?).

Eve:

Excellent observation; thanks! .. I certainly like the concept of subconscious integration.

Alan:

A quick clarification: when trying to peek over that 'wall,' I'm not dragged out of the film of my dream like a Looney Tunes character to be left standing around tapping my foot in a whitewashed limbo waiting for something to happen. No, what I do is create a situation that I can consciously comprehend to help me to potentially navigate the uncharted, and as you noted possibly unfathomable world of what could be my unconscious mind. Others might come up with a different way of getting there, and their method could just as easily be crowded with props, characters, and scenes that help to build a bridge to their unconscious mind/upper-case "I."

I would imagine that because "...I am allowing myself to abandon all semblance of dimension," doesn't mean everyone else must do it that way. Such is the inherent difficulty of sharing anecdotal experience!

I did mention elsewhere that when I leave a dream I do little more than wait for it to vacate my perception so I can go about loading new environments (which might have nothing to do with trying to touch my greater mind), but that was in answer to a different question. Wasn't it?

Peter

p.s. Okay, so maybe it wasn't all that quick a clarification!

Yes, it's always difficult to talk about this stuff succinctly, and any non-aligned readers of this thread may well consider us all barking mad.

However, we know what we know and must choose the paradigm we consider best suited to getting us where we want to go. The basic tenets of Tibetan Dream Yoga, for instance, indicate that the LD state is a vehicle wherein we may become aware of the 'permanent witness' and realise that 'cosmic consciousness' is the provider of all dreams. This realisation is attained by being receptive to dream content which is not produced by the 'I'. Therefore it follows, to my mind anyway, that the more 'I' exert willful preferences in lucid dreams the less likely it is that 'exterior' sources will be able to manifest in them.

As the Tibetan Dream Yoga meditational character 'A' is emblazoned on my Lucidity Institute T-shirt, it appears that this paradigm is approved by the immediate authorities. A further overview is provided here:

http://tinyurl.com/dr6se

But speaking of anecdotal experience, my most memorable LD experiences in this line seem somewhat different to what the imagery commonly used to illustrate it leads us to expect, and also what the Buddhist 'agenda' includes. For instance:

I had just finished a very long (2 months) work period painting a semi-nude portrait of a friend who had had a double mastectomy. This picture was very important to me, and the final passages of the picture were completed at 3am after about 15 hours of continuous work. I went to bed and immediately entered a lucid dream where I was flying over a beautiful coastline. It was absolute clarity: an exquisite sunrise coast of rocky-grassy dunes and sparkling surf. I noticed that I was heading out to sea, and tried to change direction but only succeeded in performing a wide circle and coming 'back on course' again. Okay, I thought, let's see where I'm going. After a while of delightful flight, as if on autopilot, I noticed an island on the horizon. As I flew closer, a town appeared on its coast and I wondered if I was going there. I was. I flew like an arrow into the town, along a street and into a shop that looked like a little mixed business supermarket. Here I landed and stood in the aisle among the shelves utterly unable to move or speak. Other people were there, and they seemed amused by my paralysed condition. I couldn't look at them because my eyes were fixed on some random inconsequential spot. But one of them casually walked up and said into my ear, "It's great!" Then I woke up.

As this was the longest, most vivid and conscious LD I've ever had I am interested in understanding it. 'I' didn't do it.

Alan:

That's a fantastic LD, truly, and an excellent illustration that the "big stuff" need not follow a specific pattern; thanks for sharing! But, again, why be compelled to believe that you ("I," as it were) didn't do it? Why undervalue the power of your sleeping mind?

I'm all for believing in cosmic consciousness, or anything else, for that matter. But not because anyone, the Tibetans, TLI, or the cleverest "authority," told me so. I really need to have remarkably intangible concepts like cosmic consciousness proven to me in some way shape or form. Like you, I have a feeling that LD'ing can provide that proof. Until then, I think I'll stick with Occam's razor and the might of a billion years of evolution and assume that my own mind is what's behind all these adventures. Of course in the mean time I'll certainly hope for more, and be honestly delighted if/when I'm proven wrong!

Best of Dreams,

Peter

I don't undervalue it, Peter, I simply report that 'I' (me sitting here) did not create or control that experience.

The Buddhist 'agenda' presents us with a rather totalitarian paradigm, in my view: They say that all human activity is worthless illusion except the practices aimed at achieving total absorption of the individuality into the non-differentiated energy source of everything. In this they may be seen as extremists, and the societies where such an idea has taken over as examples of the earthly results of this conviction.

I suspect that there is quite a lot happening in between their two presented poles of illusion and absorption. My reported LD experience indicates other realms of useful activity, and my nature inclines me to wish to become active there as well as here, instead of vanishing into the all in all.

I am not a pacifist or a quietist. I believe that there there are changes to be made, and that these changes are initiated and completed by the will of individuals working in whatever field in which they happen to be adept or talented. Yes, I refer to the political, social, medical, scientific, artistic and 'environmental' fields.

It seems to me that the Buddhist position negates all value from human striving for human progress. And I refute that.

To go far out on a distinctly woo-woo limb, I also believe there are other societies of conscious creatures in the near-infinite arena of the galactic universe, and that some of them are more advanced than ours.

Alan,

I believe lucid dreaming can be a doorway to discovering greater aspects of mind, including what many Buddhists seek in terms of enlightenment. From what I've seen, most mystics, be they Buddhist or otherwise, once they have enlightening experiences, it drives them to do more for humanity. This may include proving to the world through science that lucid dreaming( or other things) exist, even though the current scientific and academic paradigms are quite stubborn about believing these things exist. I think it takes a person who has alot of talent and patience to even deal with current mindsets in our world!

Eve

Eve, I don't want to pursue this issue in such a way as to indicate that I'm pig-headed about it, but I must be genetically predisposed to questioning everything beyond the bounds of average courtesy (or something) because my response to your post, forgive me, is as follows:

Where are they all? We are posting on the biggest LD website in the world, and in my 4 years of intermittent membership I have come across no Buddhist members advocating LD practice, and none who demonstrate or claim to have achieved either enlightenment or pragmatic involvement in socially beneficial activities. After 3,000 years of Buddhist culture one might expect a few living examples, at least, to show up here.

I don't think Steven is a Buddhist, for instance, because I don't think he limits himself to any specific 'agenda'. He's more of an 'open doors' guy, and just as likely to apply voodoo practices as Buddhist, Christian, Sufi or Kabbala - if he thought they might be useful. And good on him.

So while I understand the comfort of believing in the presence of enlightened people, my personal inclination is to ask, 'where are they all?'

And while I heartily agree that it is difficult to change the entrenched 'mindsets' of the scientific/academic community, I also observe that its resistance to esoteric (or in our case semi-esoteric) assertions is largely due to the seemingly inevitable wooly beliefs appended to such assertions.

BTW: After a 2004 audience with the Dalai Lama, noted neurologist Jonathan Knight reports:

"At one point I asked: 'What if neuroscience comes up with information that directly contradicts Buddhist philosophy?' The answer was: 'Then we would have to change the philosophy to match the science'."

http://tinyurl.com/9mccd

Hi Alan,

Apparently, Lucid Dreaming or dream Yoga as it's often referred to in some Buddhist teachings, resides under one of their "higher" spiritual practises in the path to nirvana and enlightenment.

This is probably why those on the path do not like to talk about the dream practises very much.

Words like nirvana and enlightenment cannot be understood intellectually in the same way that they can be experienced apparently, because they believe that these states are permanent where all else is impermanent.

I do belong to a group of Buddhists, but I don't necessarily believe in it. As far as I know, Buddhism is one of the least dogmatic of the religions and doesn't seek to impose values and beliefs on to anyone. Moreover, they actually talk about their philosophies as being "philosophies" or "beliefs" rather than aristetolean "is"ness or absolutes, "this is how it IS".

Warmly,

Adam

Adam:

Jumping off a cliff also cannot be understood intellectually in the same way that it can be experienced, but it can certainly be described. I think many buddhist lamas (and priests of any other religion, for that matter) tend to announce as "unexplainable" tenets and conditions invented by them to maintain their perceived elevation over the mere mortals who are in their flock (and providing for their welfare, in most cases).

A little harsh, I know, but Alan may have a point. Where, indeed, are they all? About a century after someone thought flight could happen, men were flying (with very little help from science, I might add). Forget science: why has nothing positive been contributed, by any religion, to real human spiritual growth in thousands of years? Shouldn't enlightenment be more common than cell phones at this point? As a group we're all spiritually pretty much the same people we were ten thousand years ago. If anything, humanity's collective spiritualism has declined rather than improved.

Sorry about the flareup. I usually try to avoid negative sentiment about these things, but, since Alan brought it up... ;)

Now can we get back to discussing "who is the dreamer?"

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Hi Peter,

I do not necessarily agree with the Buddhist ideas.

However to me, some of it makes sense. To an "unripenned" mind, the Dharma should not be taught. his tends to make sense to me in te same way one wouldnt teach a small child how to lght fires, drive cars etc until they were ready.

They do teach Deam Yoga, but it is believed to be as powerful as an analogy in the pysical realm, lighting fires. that is partly because of their belief in Karma and possibilities for abuse are endless.

Surely, as you ponted out, some do suppress such knowledge from the masses for their own prsonal gain. To me, this is very far from spiritual.

Back to discussing "who is the dreamer", who is the me breathing right now? Who is the you reading this now?

One thing which i have found intersting as been reports of Near Death Experiences (NDE's) where peole report "visions" which are often based on their own pre-set ofbelis (seeing th Virgin Mary or the Buddha etc).

I beieve that our identities change all the time and it from these rocks that be build our lives and dreams.

But, I really would like to believe tha we have an eternal presence behind these idetities and temporary states of consciousness. But as far as I know, science hasn't proven this other than "energy cannot be create or destroyed." Religion, like any other faith based organization, only leaves us with THEIR concepts of a self or soul.

So, if we were to somehow strip our consciousness from our values, beliefs, emotions, ideas, identity states, etc, who would the dreamer be, really?

Best dreams

Adam

Sorry, I found out how to do italics, but not how to delete a post - therefore had to post something here in place of the post I wanted to delete because it double posted when I added the italics.

....Goes off for a stiff scotch.

Heaven knows, presumably, Adam.

But, yeah, let's drop the Buddhist bashing. I'm quite content that they should go on believing what they believe, though reserve my right to question the historical social outcomes of this belief.

Paul said earlier:

"...when you're lucid, aren't you still a dream self, just one that knows itself to be a dream self? You know that you are being dreamed."

Discussing this might get us somewhere. Forgive the plonking prose, but I want to get the question clear:

In non-lucid dreams I do not know I am dreaming, and am entirely subject to the contents and events of the dream environment which I do not produce or stage manage. In this condition I am often subject to emotional events - the interpretation (meaning) of which is later a matter of opinion and speculation. In this dream state I am not aware of being in a dream 'body' - much less a dreamed body.

In lucid dreams I also find myself awake in a dream environment I do not create, but am able to act volitionally within it - even to the extent of deliberately walking through a wall or 'spinning', thereby changing the environment to another 'scenario', and to implementing planned actions such as questioning 'others' there, and experimenting with technical projects (such as seeing if I can play guitar better!). In this dream state, however, while I am aware of inhabiting a dream body, I am not aware that my dream body is being dreamed by something else. That is, I am not aware of being a character in a dream produced by some other source.

Some say (don't mention the Buddhists) that the dream environment is a simulation of the waking environment, and that (I paraphrase) we are dream characters in the former as well as the latter. That's all very well, but it doesn't help me understand the mechanism or highly personal content of either lucid or non-lucid dreaming - which is what I want to do.

Now the question: Is there anyone on this biggest-LD-talkboard -in-the-world who can report what happened when he or she fully experienced the effects of definitively realising that they were "just another character" in their lucid dream?

Hey Alan,

I think that it would be interesting in hearing about such phenomena. I don't have an experience of this as yet ...

But, what comes to mind, I remember a line from the movie "Waking Life" which is largely about Lucid Dreams: "To be aware that one is a character, in another persons dream ... That, is self awareness!"

Warmly,

Adam

Yes, Adam. But have you actually met or read a post from Richard Linklater or anyone who has actually done it ? It seems not. Does Richard, the maker of the movie, claim to have done it himself? Or is he merely expressing a received belief that it is possible?

Anyone can make grandiose mystical statements, and unfortunately far too many do. I'm 64 years old, and have met too many people in the esoteric arena who make such statements in order to appear more knowing than they are. In fact this is the basis for countless profitable businesses and book sales. Then, of course, there are those who say them simply because they want to believe they are true.

We must wait and see if my question receives an answer from someone who has indeed experienced what the movie asserts.

Alan:

I'm confused.

Haven't I been arguing all along that successful lucidity for me was a letting go of the dream character me, and attempting to connect with the real me? I know you don't agree with me, but I wasn't making grandiose mystical statements in my posts, I was relating an activity.

So, humbly, I'm one of those mystery people who, as I'm sure I wrote several times above, regularly recognizes that he's just another character in his lucid dream. And that recognition, as I've said, helps me on the very rare occasion to step above the format of the dream itself and into something else altogether -- but you probably don't want me to go there again!

I'm sure plenty of people do this -- it can't be that unusual. Am I missing something?

Peter

??Movie Waking Life??

Hello, I rented this movie last weekend and have a couple of questions.

1. At the end of the movie when the Dream Character having the LD experience floated off up into the sky~~did that mean that he had died and was floating off into an eternal LD or other state of consciousness??

2. The animated wavering of the dream characters is that how most people's LDs are being depicted? With the dreamscape is always in a wavering, vibrating state? My LDs are very crisp and sharp and parallel physical waking world. There is no vibrating movement in the dream characters nor the scenery.

Patricia

Peter, I always try to be alert to my own oversights or 'senior's moments', and feared the occurrence of such when I read your post. But when scrolling back for reference, all I could find was this latest report of your position on this subject:

I'm all for believing in cosmic consciousness, or anything else, for that matter. But not because anyone, the Tibetans, TLI, or the cleverest "authority," told me so. I really need to have remarkably intangible concepts like cosmic consciousness proven to me in some way shape or form. Like you, I have a feeling that LD'ing can provide that proof. Until then, I think I'll stick with Occam's razor and the might of a billion years of evolution and assume that my own mind is what's behind all these adventures. Of course in the mean time I'll certainly hope for more, and be honestly delighted if/when I'm proven wrong!

Maybe I misunderstood, but does this not imply that your experience to date falls short of the definitive assertion from Buddhism and from 'Dreaming Life' that "To be aware that one is a character, in another persons dream ... That, is self awareness!"? Or do I overestimate the conclusive nature of the putative realisation? Can you please expand on your ..."step above the format of the dream itself and into something else altogether." ? What was the "something else altogether"?

Hello, Patricia. I calculate that the wavering fuzziness was a characteristic of the animation technique. My LDs are also rather more crisply focussed than that, and rather more so than waking life as a matter of fact. I vividly remember looking down while standing in the surf of some dream beach, thinking "these are my dream feet!" - and being totally gobsmacked at the detail of the rendition. I don't know where the character was going at the end, though, either.

Alan:

Try looking at the last set of archived posts, too, as most of what I've said about this was listed there. I think the quote of mine that you used might have been an answer to something else. There are others that might make my position clearer.

Please note that I don't quote buddhas, pursue their tenets, or look to them for guidance. I doubt that I ever will. So it doesn't matter to me, really, if anything I say "falls short" of their rules. And regarding the statement from "Waking Life," I have fairly consistently held throughout all my posts since first signing on in '02 that for me self awareness is both the key to lucid dreaming and the primary end product of lucid dreaming. I suggest you try a keyword search with my name plus an upper-case I in quotes ("I"), and some posts regarding this subject will likely come up.

Peter

Peter, I've done as you suggested and gained a wider view of reports on this subject - particularly from the 'Dreams of Transcendence' thread where the experience of 'rising above' the dual nature ( 'I' and the rest) of the dream scenario is characterised as unreportable. I guess I'll just have to continue to work on achieving or receiving that experience myself.