I'm interested in the overlap between psychedelic states and lucid dreaming states. I've noticed that in descriptions of particular drugs comparisons to lucid dreaming are especially frequent - e.g. ketamine, iboga/ibogaine, salvia divinorum - and it is also worth noting that a tiny dose of any of the "classic" psychedelics such as LSD or psilocybin taken before bed will significantly increase the duration of REM sleep.

I'm glad to hear (in PSY30: Varieties of Consciousness) that lucid dreaming was frequently mentioned at Mindstates IV. I'll be attending a similar conference called "Altered States and the Spiritual Awakening" in San Francisco July 11-13, and will be interested to see if lucid dreaming is frequently mentioned there. ASSACON is designed to be more affordable than most such conferences; here's a link if anyone's interested. www.assacon.com

Chris Smith, I'd love to hear more about the contexts in which lucid dreaming was discussed at Mindstates.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

Adastra:

Though anecdotal descriptions of the two are similar, I wonder if there isn't one major difference between the experience of psychedelic drugs (hallucinogens) and LD's that might make the drugs anathema to the experience of a lucid dream:

An LD by nature is an act of conscious awareness, or control, of an experience that our unconscious mind usually keeps to itself. Because LD's are elusive, and not part of our brain's innate programming, it is critical that a dreamer maintain a clear head to both generate the proper intent before a dream, and to be ready to become lucid during the dream. Hallucinogens by their nature defeat conscious control and, on top of that, actually add more stimulation to the unconscious machinery.

So, even though a spot of LSD before bedtime might increase REM activity, and generate some memorable dreams, won't it also inhibit the dreamer's concentration, cloud his intentions, and perhaps so bury his expectations with new images that the chance of becoming lucid are incredibly slim?

Please let me know if I'm completely wrong about this, and why, but for now I have to believe that hallucinogens would not help in the quest for an LD. They might not even be much more than an amusingly vivid tangent in the quest for understanding consciousness in general, but this forum is probably not the place to argue that.

Peter

Hi Peter

Thanks for your response.

From my perspective, I see an interesting philosophical relationship between the two states. In the case of lucid dreaming you become self-aware in the unconscious realm, whereas under the influence of psychedelics unconscious awareness emerges into the conscious mind. In both cases there is an interesting blend of self-awareness and unconscious material; so it could be useful to compare the two states. I'm certainly not claiming that they are identical. One obvious difference is that in the case of most - but not all - psychedelics you continue to be aware of your body, whereas in the case of lucid dreaming you are (usually) completely unaware of your physical body.

It is possible, however, that they are more closely related than it would first appear. For example, one of the most powerful psychedelics, DMT, is produced in the human body, and some people speculate that tiny doses of it might be released during REM sleep, producing dreams. If this turns out to be the case, then the line between dream states and psychedelic states would certainly blur.

Another useful point of overlap, for me, concerns the question: can psychedelics be used to facilitate lucid dreaming directly? If a small dose of a psychedelic drug given to a person while asleep or just before sleep significantly increases duration of REM sleep and intensity of dreams, could that make lucid dreams more likely to occur? To answer this question would require experimentation. I should point out, we are talking about a dose so small that it would be below the threshold of awareness if you were awake, or just barely at the threshold.

One other point I'd like to make for now: in the case of certain drugs, there appears to be a high degree of overlap between the drug-induced state and dreaming. In the case of ketamine, for example, at certain doses the frontal cortex is highly stimulated, but the awareness of the body is cut off completely (this has been shown both in experiential reports and in studies of brain activity under the influence of ketamine). So you have a "mind awake, body asleep" situation - sound familiar?

Adastra:

Your response almost managed to shake off my knee-jerk reaction to comparing use of psychedelics to LD'ing, because it all makes sense and, you are correct in noting that some of the basic physiological mechanisms in the two events are similar.

But there is still one large gap to leap: conscious control. I still believe that hallucinogenic drugs erode conscious control, which is a basic requirement in lucid dreaming. Sure, a psychedelic drug might amplify the dream experience (and for that reason alone the experiment you mention is worth doing ' I'm surprised it hasn't already been done). But it's the normal dream that's being turned up, not the LD. And that additional sensory volume could do more to impede lucidity than invite it.

Isn't escape one of the goals (or pedestrian uses) of trypping? That escape can be defined by a release of control to the whim of the drug taken. Any conscious control of an hallucinogenic's input is more as a spectator acknowledging the drug's influence than it is actually harnessing the power of the drug to raise consciousness. So, though psychedelics may follow the same chemical paths as our dreams, their influence may throw our minds out of the balance required to successfully lucid dream. Or would that be "imbalance" required?

I can feel myself stepping out of my league here, so I think I'll quit while I'm ahead, or not too far behind.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

Peter

Greetings,

Many many many years ago in college, I had a friend who was interested in various states of conciousness, and to facilite his study of them, He would take an LSD dose early in the morning and then go back to sleep so as to avoid the initial nausea.

He would end up with very vivid and intense dreams that he claimed he knew were dreams while he was in them, however they were always so interesting he never wanted to try and control them.

The main problem he had was that once the LSD really starts to kick in, he could never sleep on it.

As for Peter's comments on drug use, it is mainly used for escape in Western civilizations. Other civilizations use drugs for very specific purposes, usually spiritual.

Salvia Divinorum is currently being pushed as a way to have a LD or OOB. It is still legal to use in the US.

I started out with small doses and when I had fooled myself that it was safe and controllable, I found out the hard way that a small increase in dosage can result in a dramatic change in effect.

At light doses, your subconcious becomes very accessable, but in ways that seem to be common to everyone in a culture.

At higher doses, I became very aware of bodily internals. I could feel where the flesh met my bones, and muscles sliding over each other.

Once I crossed the threshold on Salvia, I found myself feeling like I had been rotated completely out of our universe.

I had no idea who I was. I had no idea what I was. I had no discernable body.

However, I could see and hear just fine. Actually everything was larger than life. It was easily the most terrifying experience of my life. Fortunately, the experience doesn't last very long, and while it does, in fact, produce an 'OOB' experience, most people won't care for it.

Oh yeah,

While I am still thinking of it. I have been using 500mg of DMAE, 400mg of triple lecithin, and 200mg of vitamin b-6 (all from GNC) for about two weeks now. Taken about two hours before bedtime. Not with a meal.

Three nights ago, I came to full lucidity 50 feet in the air and practiced levitating.

Two nights ago, I spent the entire night wavering back and forth across the lucidity barrier (very annoying).

Last night, I was lucid for every dream I had.

Including the one were I was dreaming that I was trying to project into the dream state so I could see if I could affect things in the lucid dream from a deeper dream state.

After physically moving things around for a while, I deliberately woke up from the inner dream state into the outer dream state to see if anything had moved. It hadn't. But the person that I had given a number to remembered the number I gave them in the inner state, so..... does dreaming that a person I gave a number to in a nested dream prove the existence of telepathy? Or might my experiment be tainted?

And once I was done with the checks, I deliberately woke up into the real world.

I think.

Hi, all!

Just a comment. Although I realize the forum is open to any and all ideas, I'm a little disturbed by this content. The use of drugs for spiritual work may have its tradition in other cultures, but in our culture it has been nothing but destructive. My personal experience in this area would certainly testify to the fact. Perhaps we lack the spiritual discipline required to handle these substances safely.

Besides, lucid dreaming is such an elegantly simple and beautiful way to grow spiritually, why confound it with pharmacology? If someone wants to have more lucid dreams, or more intense dream experiences, there are ways to achieve these goals without the use of drugs. Of course this requires some effort, and who wants to have to exert oneself if there's a shortcut?

Paul

Paul:

Well said, and also a clear reflection of the direction of this forum. Thank you!

William:

You hit it right on the head -- Western cultures do not use drugs for spiritual growth as much as they do for an escape. Or, as Paul noted, a shortcut (and that shortcut usually winds up being a very difficult path that rarely ends at the intended destination).

Unfortunately, this site, and most of its users, is the product of those Western cultures. From our perspective, even light doses of mind-altering drugs could pose an obstacle to their spiritual growth. Especially when the Western norm seems to be to continue increasing dosage until the damage is done. That's not a good thing, but it's a good argument against using these powerful drugs to save time.

As long as I'm there, I must take a moment of exception about those non-western cultures who use drugs. Don't the most spiritual groups (i.e., the Tibetans) tend to shy away from drug use, because they negatively affect their control? I often wonder if these other cultures have simply found their own "short cuts," and have masked them in a cloak of spiritualism found admirable by Westerners who don't understand the true nature of the party (that should get me in a little trouble ;) ).

And again, hallucinogenics, by their nature, remove control from the lucid dreamer's mental tool belt, and that reduces the chances of an LD, regardless of the improvements on imagery.

Peter

Peter and Paul,

I have a several questions regarding your last messages. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to pin down what is fact and what is opinion. Try to get all the way to the bottom before getting mad ;).

Paul:

could you provide some examples, personal experience, to back up your statement regarding lack of spiritual discipline.

As a doctor, how many people have you seen/treated/examined that were using hallocinogens for spiritual growth rather than to see how badly they could mess up their mind?

Are you drawing a distinction between the various families of drugs, or are considering herion and cocaine addicts as failed spiritual growth seekers?

Peter:

How did you determine that Tibetans are in fact the most spiritual of people?

Have you ever studied at a Tibetan monastery? Known anyone that has and mastered all of their secrets and practices?

How do you know that Tibetans don't use mind altering drugs or practices? (a trick question, you can't prove a negative, and they do. Most meditations involving breath control tend to increase the amount of CO2 in your bloodstream)

Do all Tibetans work on achieving LD, or just some?

Since most of the Eastern meditative practices warn not to be taken in by the 'smoke and mirrors' that your mind will generate to keep you from achieving enlightenment, wouldn't LDing fall into this category?

How is working to achieve enlightenment equivalent to 'faith' healing or seeking power over the elements as is the common usage of hallucinogens in some other cultures?

I do agree that the uncontrolled and excessive use of hallucinogens is a bad thing. But they can also be used to allow you to map out the territory so that you know what you can work towards.

And just like Big Macs or candy bars, they can be abused and misused.

William:

First, don't worry about getting angry; pretty much everything I wrote is opinion. Informed opinion, perhaps, but I certainly didn't look anything up. Tibetans, per the "i.e.' included before them, were meant to be an example of a group that most forum readers will recognize as spiritual, and a group which I think we can agree do not do drugs beyond the occasional dark tea and incense (and no, though CO2 is indeed a substance, I simply cannot in any way term that a psychedelic drug). I did not say they were "the most" spiritual, but I think that I can safely rank theirs among the most spiritual groups, as my sentence implied.

I doubt all Tibetans work on LD's, just as all Tibetans don't milk yaks. Some will, some won't, depending on their discipline, and most probably don't even refer to them as LD's. Is there a reason they need to all be working on them?

I agree with your note about the smoke and mirrors. I would have to believe that Eastern disciplines provide many warnings about, and exercises to prevent, the potential for LD's to be abused (like drugs) to a point where enlightenment is sidetracked or replaced with psychic escape.

I'm not sure what you were saying about faith healing or seeking power over the elements, since I didn't mention either of those, or even thought to compare. Indeed, if you meant that other cultures use hallucinogenics for those purposes, and not for enlightenment, doesn't that take away some of their value in lucid dreaming?

I will try mentioning control one last time ' what exactly are the hallucinogens mapping? Yes, I agree that they are providing a vivid experience that certainly merits investigation. But aren't they really displaying areas of consciousness similar to but actually separate from lucid dreams? Part of their effect, even when taken moderately, is to reduce a dreamer's conscious control, and that control is critical toward achieving lucid dreams. As Adastra noted above, the effects of hallucinogenics and LD'ing are similar, and worthy of comparison, but those effects are symptoms shared by two separate states of consciousness. Without control, the chances of achieving a lucid dream are reduced, and hallucinogens remove control. In the end, I believe that psychedelics really are not a short cut to lucidity, in any society.

I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll stop with that.

Peter

P.S. Please be assured that we are definitely not trying to anger you, patronize you, or dismiss your opinion. However, the use of psychedelics is a volatile subject for this forum, so you won't be able to avoid strong arguments from your fellow members (and I'm still hoping someone a little more informed than me might pitch in here!). So please don't get angered or offended if some of us consistently argue against the use of mind-altering drugs in our quest to, um, alter our minds with lucid dreams.

Bill,

Read William J. Craddock's book "Be Not Content". It covers several of these issues, based on the author's personal experience, although written in Novel form. It's an excellent account of the early acid eaters of the West Coast, their quest for spiritual enlightenment, and their ultimate failure. As for personal experience, I began to experiment with hallucinogens in the 60's for spiritual growth, having no discipline and no teacher or path to follow, and ended up in places I would not recommend to anyone. I know many others who would tell the same story.

As for drug classes, they're all the same to me. I'm convinced that using any mind or mood-altering substances to achieve expanded conciousness is a dead-end street. And yes, even users of these alkaloids (opiates, coke, etc.) are seekers. After all, why does anyone seek spiritual growth, if not for ultimate freedom from the pain of living, to experience joy and fulfilment in life. That's what "addicts" are trying to achieve in the first place, and that's exactly what these alkaloids seem to provide--at first. That's why they're so damn dangerous. You pay for them ultimately with your life.

Of course we each have to learn for things for ourselves. 'Nuf said.

Good luck! Paul

Hey William

Interesting anecdote about your friend in college. It sounds like he was introduced to the wonderful world of lucid dreaming through his process of sleeping through the initial stages of an LSD trip.

The fact that he never wanted to control them is, in my opinion, somewhat irrelevent - after all, passively witnessing lucid dreams is a better approach (according to some people) than, for example, exercising magical control.

I think that if he had used much lower doses - such that, if doing so while awake, he wouldn't really be "tripping," he might have stayed asleep but still experienced the same fantastic lucid dreams.

In any case, I knew a guy in high school who first started having lucid dreams while sleeping the night after using marijuana or LSD. He found this fascinating and started cultivating lucid dreaming for its own sake. (I also once saw an adult learn to draw for the first time while on acid, but I digress.) I never had lucid dreams - or much dream recall at all - closely following use of marijuana or psychedelics - but I wonder how many people have been introduced to lucid dreaming through experimentation with drugs?

I thought this quote from the Lucidity Institute's Lucid Dreaming FAQ might have some relevence to the discussion. I've added bold emphasis to two key points.

Quote:

3.6 ARE THERE ANY DRUGS OR NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS THAT STIMULATE LUCID DREAMS?

A number of substances have been suggested to enhance the likelihood of lucid dreaming, from vitamins to prescription drugs. There are few good scientific studies to test such claims. Lucid dreaming is highly subject to the placebo effect; the belief that something will stimulate a lucid dream is very effective! This is not to say that there are not substances that do, in fact, promote lucid dreaming. We are interested in discovering such and welcome observations from fellow dreamers. At this time, however, we do not endorse any substances for inducing lucid dreams. Many prescription drugs as well as marijuana and alcohol alter the sleep cycle, usually by suppressing REM sleep. This leads to a phenomenon called "REM rebound," in which a person experiences intense, long REM periods after the drug has worn off. This can manifest as nightmares or, possibly, as lucid dreaming, since the brain is highly active. Drugs in the LSD family, including psilocybin and tryptamines actually stimulate REM sleep (in doses small enough to allow sleep), leading to longer REM periods. We do not recommend the use of drugs without proper guidance nor do we urge the breaking of laws.

Adastra,

Sleep deprivation does the same thing? Why mess with poisons?

Paul

Salvia Divinorum is a particularly interesting mind-altering tool in the context of this discussion.

The way it was originally used was to chew the leaves in a dark, quiet environment, in a sacred setting. The resulting flow of dreamlike imagery could be disrupted by any external noise. It was used that way in Mexico for centuries.

Then people started using it outside the original shamanic context, and it was discovered that if you smoked it, it was much more potent. Used that way, it can result in extreme states that in some respects resemble dreams.

I've read accounts of Salvia trips in which the tripper was observed to be producing Rapid Eye Movement with eyes closed. One tripper speculated that Salvia might somehow instantly slam the brain into full-on dream mode, based on his experiences. On only one occasion did I experience powerful effects from Salvia; although I did not fully leave my body and journey into another realm, I felt that with a slightly higher dosage I would have. More significantly, in this threshold state I experienced extreme body distortion which was most unsettling - but afterwards I felt it was similar to the body distortion I experience when I go directly into a dream/OBE state (i.e. a WILD), but with much greater speed and intensity.

To summarize: in the original pattern of use, it produces a dreamlike flow of imagery easily interrupted by outside interference; in higher doses it produces extreme alterations of consciousness which greatly resemble dreams. What I'm wondering is, could it be that Salvia activates a part of the brain involved in dreaming? The active ingredient is Salvinorin A, which has very precise effects in the brain - it only stimulates the kappa opioid receptor. It is very potent, only a few hundred micrograms producing powerful effects.

Therefore I think it could be productive to use equipment such as EEG's and other brain scan technology to see what is happening in the brains of people experiencing Salvia's effects, and compare the results to the brain states of people who are dreaming. Perhaps this could shed light on the dreaming process.

Peter,

lest anyone form the wrong opinion of me, I started mapping out the effects of Salvia because it is being sold and touted as a method of having lucid dreams. As far as I am concerned, if it can't be measured, described, and repeated it isn't fact. I could teach people from Missouri a thing or two about 'show me'.

Not personally knowing anyone that had tried it to induce lucid dreams, and since it is still legal to use in this country, I did the mapping myself.

At high doses it does indeed produce either an OOB or LD or hallucination, however not having the equipment to record and observe brainwaves, I can't say for sure which one it was, or if there is any difference between the states. However. Comma. The experience is unsettling enough not to be worth repeating.

In your posts, you seem to have two root assumptions:

1. A lucid dream is a seperate psychological state from a trance, either internally or externally induced.
2. Anything used to induce a trance externally will result in a lack of control.

However, the techniques given for inducing a WILD can be considered as trance inducing, and post-hypnotic suggestions seem to help induce a lucid dream.

Getting to your counter questions:

Again, what is your basis for assigning Tibetians a high spiritual score? Not eating meat? Not stepping on ants? Withdrawing from the world? The occasional incident of self-immolation as a form of social protest?

Having never been to a tibetian monestary, FOR ALL I KNOW, they indulge in nightly orgies involving large amounts of opium, video games and human sacrifice. Which is ok since they are really aliens from another planet biding their time until the rest of the invasion fleet shows up.

The original discussion was about LD and small amounts of hallucinogens. As a counter arguement, you claimed that tibetians don't use drugs. Therefore tibetians must practice LD in order for your argument to apply.

Most of the cultures that use hallucinogens do so in order to induce a trance. Some could argue that a trance is a state of focused internal awareness, and that description might also apply to lucid dreams, especially those that are wake induced. Why would lucid dreaming be adversely affected?

Again, your argument revolves around there being no way to control a hallucinogenic experience, and no way to learn control.

And lastly I am not arguing for the use of mind altering drugs. I am arguing against dismissing the entire area of experimentation because of cultural prejudice. One might be tempted to point out that respect for the land was a quaint primitive belief held by the original inhabitants of North American when we all know that humans are completely incapable of affecting the environment in any detectible way (and yes, that part was sarcasm).

Paul,

Thanks for the reference, I will see if I can find it. I would disagree with out about the motivations for some if not most drug use. Most people regard them as a source of 'feel good'. I regard them as tools, some of which are useful some are not. For example, the US Army still hands out dexedrene to combat soldiers. Crank or crystal meth which is artifical cocaine was used by the Germans in WWII to allow their troops to fight for days. Suffice to say, this isn't a useful tool for lucid dreaming.

Alcohol and marijuanna suppress rem sleep, so that can be used to exploit the 'rebound effect'. Sleep deprivation can do the same thing, but that is a truly stupid way to go. It is very easy to push too far and end up in 'waking dreams' or hallucinating without intending to. Not that I ever intentionally did so, but I used to work on an aircraft carrier, and the military only promises one hour of sleep a night. Any more is a bonus.

You did say that you have personal experience in this area. You didn't say if you had done so under carefully controlled conditions with large amounts of self examination afterwards or if it was of the 'how many pills can I take today' school.

I would also like to point out that if I had chimed in with 'Bad Drugs, NO!' this thread would be a lot shorter than it is. Don't assume that I won't take the opposite side of a question in order to get people to defend their opinions or provide more information. And never assume that I believe everything that I write. Anything that I attribute to personal experience will be as factual and accurate as I can make it, with all of the proper disclaimers.

adastra,

Can I assume you have read the book of the same name by Andre Norton?

Actually no. He was the one that got me started on Carlos Castaneda. And if Carlos had understood what was going on four books sooner he probably wouldn't have developed an interest in hallucinogens.

You are making unwarrented assumptions about the purity of underground drugs. Most LSD is laced with strychnine, which acts as a stimulant if it doesn't kill you.

The chemicals I mentioned in an earlier message are precursors for neuro-transmitters. My experience has been that having plenty for the brain to use when they are needed seems to help with the lucid dreaming.

So does, oddly enough, sleeping with your head to the north. I imagine one would have to reverse that on the other side of the equator, and sleep standing up on the equator, but I haven't tried that.

You seem to know all of the important parts about Salvia. Watch out for that threshold. The bodily distortions are right below it.

Because it is a kappa-opoid drug, and unlike any other hallucinogen, doesn't that imply that any results for studying it won't neccessarily apply to any other hallucinogen?

One and all!

Having put my feelings on record, I now gracefully bow out of this thread, with no regrets or hard feelings. I wish only the best to all you brave travelers on the path.

Paul

I would like to clearly state that I do not suggest that anybody risk imprisonment or the dangers inherent in a black market. Furthermore psychedelics are powerful tools and therefore have certain inherent risks, much more so in a society which prohibits them.

Should anybody decide to experiment with these tools/sacraments, they should do so in careful, deliberate fashion after fully informing themselves - http://www.erowid.org is an excellant place to start.

DMT and lucid dreaming

Over at www.erowid.com I recently encountered a report by someone who describes how smoking DMT led to spontaneously learning how to lucid dream.

Helps Lucid Dreaming DMT by Bow Dean Mcnowski

DOSE : smoked DMT

BODY WEIGHT : 150 lb

I have never had the intention of having lucid dreams, they started happening after experimenting with smoked DMT.

During the DMT trance I like to try and see as much detail in the visions as I can, watching the unfolding of patterns, flowing colours, this sort of thing. Then one night during sleep, my dream state was flowing normally, for reasons unknown I knew I was dreaming all of a sudden. All I could think of to do was to see what the material dreams where made of looked like. So with no remorse I grab the head of a character in my dream, an old man sitting at a table, I focused all of my attention looking into his face, trying to see in detail what his face was made of. He gave me a look of compassion before his face turned into a fractal looking goo that kept morphing. Upon seeing this I realized that this always moving dream substance was almost identical to the way DMT makes 3 dimensional matter look like. In fact, at the moment I realized I was dreaming I experienced the same 'rush' that smoking DMT gives.

Having the courage to enjoy DMT visuals gives me more strength in the dream world to hold it intact. Once I can stablize the 'stuff' dreams are made of, its seems as thou I can experience whatever I can think of. I have found myself eating dream food and even tasting it.

One thing I did notice though, was that almost everytime I have a lucid dream, right before the transition from normal dreaming to lucid dreaming takes place, somthing that seems impossible takes place in the normal dream that will make me question my reality. Its almost as thou somthing is sent to wake me up inside the dream, then the fun starts! hope this helps somone!

Exp Year: 2003 ID: 28775 Added: Nov 28, 2003

Peter,

Thankyou for you honest and lucid reply,

Perhaps we should attempt to avoid the word 'drug' and simply refer to specific substances whilst discussing? This may help avoid confusion.

Daniel:

Seems like a good solution to me!

Peter

Cheers, Peter,

I'd like to add another angle to the debate, one that is often ignored if not considered in the use of illegal drugs.

Often when we consider the negative aspects of illegal drug use we tend to look at it from a personal perspective. In other words, how these drugs will effect ourselves and people close to us. But, and this has been the transforming perspective towards my attitude towards drug use, the actual negative psychological and physical effects of illegal drug use are probably the least important of the negatives associated with drug use. We live in a world that is undenaibly interconnected - what we do effects the world around us. A simple example is vegetarianism, our choice of food, not only effects the obvious welfare of animals but also directly effects the economic structure of the food manufacturers.

As sensible adult human beings our choice of how we use or abuse our bodys and psychology is in essence our own choice, we can if intelligent, educate ourselves to the risks and benifits of these substances and draw conclusions as to whether we wish to take that risk. The effects of these choices however are far wider reaching than our personal health and wellbeing - yet we tend to ignore or forget this.

The illegal drug industry is a direct and possibly the most vital source of income for vast and quite evil criminal networks. These networks, the gangsters etc. use the money made from drugs for all sorts of disgusting acts against humanity. In Europe many poor or warridden countrys find themselves as a focus to these gangsters. Young women, even children are either sold or coerced into 'working' for the gangsters - if they are given a choice these women are told they will be working for them in legitimit orginisations abroad. However upon arriving in a country such as the UK these women are forced into an illegal and disgusting sex industry. Locked in houses, forcibly turned into addicts of heroin (and often subdued by various other drugs) and made to live a life of whoring. Forced to have sex again and again, day in day out, with strangers - locked in a house they will never escape.

No choice.

These women have no passports, no loved ones they can contact, they have NO contact with the outside world. they are literaly non-humans. They are essentialy a modern form of zombie - controlled by evil gangsters and turned slaves by addiction. But more importantly than this - these operations are funded by the recreational drug use of normal people. The houses, the smuggling of these women, the drugs they are slaves to, the guns and manpower needed to run such a foul organisation are funded by the purchase of illegal drugs - by normal people - people like us.

It may seem far fetched, i know, most people buy drugs from friends, average people trying to get a little more cash. But the industry like any industry is a pyramid. The money works its way from the small time 'friend' dealers, up the ladder to the bastards (and i think its justified to call them this) whom kidnap and sell women and children into a life of drug controlled sexual slavery. These human beings, these women and children, are often already victims of war, crime and disaster. It may seem far fetched, but unfortunatly it is very very real.

And this is only one of the many many uses for the funding that illegal drug use creates. The profits are literaly phenomenal. Funding guns, wars, slave prostitution, child pornography, drug smuggling, terrorrism etc, etc, the list goes on , sickeningly.

When i finally realised that for me to explore my mind with drugs, to expand it, was not just a personal price; a risk to my health and sanity but a direct source of funding for many of the evils in this world. I woke up, got lucid. I am not an island, non of us are - we are all responsible.

Perhaps sometimes drug use dosn't directly fund these groups. Picking magic mushrooms, growing your own grass for example. These are simply matters of personal choice.

Yet if we promote this lifestyle, openly promote drugs, not all people will be aware of the few ways in which drug use is truely a individual choice and may themselves buy into this industry and give money to these shits. We musnt let ourselves be a source of free advertising for gangsters, even if our drug use is free from the illegal-network. By promoting drug use we play into the hands of these people.

The chances are though that most of the drugs you have purchased have directly funded many of these crimes. Step by step, from your dealer, up the chain...

Of course it is not the drugs themselves that create this. They are simply substances. It is the fact that these drugs are controlled by the underworld. Drugs are not bad, they are chemicals. The money we pay for these drugs however is the source of much suffering and evil.

I have experimented with a few drugs in my teenage years. Looking back i wish i had thought it through. I learnt alot about myself, but at what cost? Fortuantly my psychology was strong enough to deal with the chemicals - i didnt loose the plot as many do. But i did loose that bit of myself that felt seperate from the evil storys i read in the news. I in part funded misery. Ignorance was the cause but not an excuse. It makes me sick to think i played a part in this chain.

Until all drugs are fully legalised and taken from the hands of the criminals gangs, and this will probably never happen - i doubt the gangs would allow such vast funding to be taken away - then drugs will be a source of misery and evil. Not the drugs themselves, as i have said, they are merely chemicals. But what they truely stand for, behind the personal effects, behind the cultures that forget the source, behind whatever mystical states they may or maynot create, somewhere,someone is paying with his or her life, either murdered or forced into slavery - or whatever other sickness these gangsters perform.

I for one will not pay that price.

I hope you all will consider this and not take it lightly - however far from this evil your source of drugs seems, somehow, someway the money will make its way up the chain, and you will be responsible.

Sorry to bring such darkness into the discussion but i think it needed to be said.

Love to you all,

Daniel

Good point Daniel.

It is a price I also will not pay. It's worth remembering however that not all psychedelics are illegal. For example it is perfectly legal to pick, grow and sell fresh psilocybin mushrooms. Only once dried are they illegal - this is in the UK at least, not America where they are illegal simply for existing! Salvia divinorum is still perfectly legal in the UK and most other countries. Lets keep it this way through responsible use and out of the control of the underworld dealers.

String List:

If you are interested in joining Stephen LaBerge & Luis Eduardo Luna of the Wasiwaska Institute for explorations of Mind and the Brazilian Amazon, read below!

Stephen will be jointly running an Experimental Lucid Dreaming & Amazonian Sacramental Plant Seminar late January thru early February 2005. This seminar will likely have very limited space and is on an invitational basis at this time. Pre-reservations may be required.

The Brazilian Seminar will run about 13days and will include the option of working with Native Ethnogens reputed to have an effect on REM Sleep, Lucidity and Dreams in general. Fees will be similar to our standard Dreaming and Awakening Seminars in Hawaii. You must be in good health; have an valid passport & Brazilian entry visa to attend. Advanced planning is recommended if you wish to attend.

As you know, Lucid Dreaming aids are NOT required to be successful at the practice, but the TLI is continuing it's research in aids to producing and enhancing the LD state. If this is an area of personal interest for you, please contact me directly.

• Dominick TLI

Hi Dominick, I moight be interested for Brasil, please let me know if you have got some more information, Hermine Mensink The Netherlands I met you last time in Maui in 2001 with Ralf Penderak,Keelin and others Hermine

Hi Hermine-

I will send you more information via your email address.

This joint seminar with Dr. Luna's "Wasiwaska Institute" will run from Jan 23 thru Feb. 05, 2005 (12 days) and be held outside the Amazon Jungle capital of Manaus, Brazil.

Facilities are quite nice (a refurbished jungle Jut Plantation) and allow access to the jungle while having creature comforts similar to the Kalani in Hawaii (excellent food, even A/C and a pool). Costs are similar to standard DAA retreats- $2,000 for room & board and all program incidentals including 4-5 sessions of Ayahuasca, the famed Amazonian sacred brew (also called the "visionary vine').

In addition to lectures by Dr. LaBerge & Dr. Luna on psycho-navigation, dreaming, and Amazonian ethnography, etc. - there will be treks into the Jungle to see the beauty of Amazonian flora and fauna, boat expeditions down the Rio Negro & Rio Ariau (day & night trips), Cayman catching, piranha fishing or swimming (your choice).

I'd love to see you again. Been a long time since we've dreamed together'.

Dominick TLI

I've attended one ayahuasca seminar in Peru (3 ayahuasca sessions in one week) since I started this thread. There definately seem to be similarities between the ayahuasca realm and dreaming - in fact a lot of people call the process "dreaming with ayahuasca" or "ayahuasca dreaming". If anyone is interested in reading a report I wrote about the experience in Peru last November, it is posted at:

http://integralnaked.org/forum/tm.asp?m=4513&p=7&tmode=1&smode=1

By the way, there is also a lucid dreaming discussion thread on that forum, if anyone is interested that link is:

http://integralnaked.org/forum/tm.asp?m=1761&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

(I post there as 'adastra' and have included links to this forum there.)

I am excited to hear about this retreat in Brazil, and I very much hope to be there. I attended a lecture and workshop with Luis Eduardo Luna at the "Altered States and the Spiritual Awakening" conference in San Francisco last summer and was quite impressed. For him and Stephen LaBerge to be presenting a seminar together, bringing ayahuasca dreaming and lucid dreaming together - that is a wonderful confluence indeed.

manana iguana, a.

Adastra -

Excellent. And Thanks. If you want to begin the discussion on this string, please do! This can be a distracting topic to some, so let's all try to keep to the spirit of this forum and it's focus when opining on the interplay of ethnogens and lucid dreaming. (Not you specifically, just a genearal comment since there are strong views on the general topic.)

I also have been to "the Jungle", twice for two prior seminars with Luis Eduardo and Ayhuasca to help lay the ground work for this Experimental Seminar.

Glad to hear there will be at least other avid Dreamers there to bridge the experiences and expand our horizons as a group.

Dominick TLI

hello all. I would like to mention a few things about Salvia Divinorum, which might have been stated previously, but are worth reiterating. For starters, it is legal in every country except one ot two around the world. Legality brings with it a safety in terms of purity and social stigmatism. It is inexpensive and when used traditionally, has a physiological safety record spanning back many thousands of years. However, the modern use involves extraction tinctures which are up to twenty times more potent than the original substance and it is usually smoken now rather than chewed over a period of several dozen minutes. What this means is that although there has been no negative physiological effects I am aware of, the territory of the new methods are not well explored. I am going into some detail here because there is likely to be some useful application of this plant for the purpose of lucid dreaming, for those who are responsible with their research and daring enough to tread into vastly bizarre waters. The thing with S.D. is that it is not like any other substance, and no amount of experience with any other 'drugs' will fully prepare one on this voyage. Do not, i reapeat, do not try ingesting this without a trusted sitter present. I do not know how you will incorporate Salvia into your lucidity experiments, but when and if you do, do not use this plant without a sober person watching over you. This is not like alcohol or marijuana, or even psilocybin mushrooms nor L.S.D. Description is futile, but safety is of utmost importance. There is nothing like this out there, and it is still a legal sacrament, so treat it with respect and caution so that this potentially beneficial tool for the advancement of lucidity remains available to the willing.

Derek et al.,

I don't know much about SD's influence on LD, but I was talking about it with a friend, and she said she's heard that SD causes insomnia--not sure if she meant as a side-effect, or just that it's difficult to sleep while under the influence. Is this true, and if so, wouldn't that have an adverse affect on LD?

Thanks.

Joshua

I am by no means an expert on Salvia, I just have had several experiences with it and do believe that it has inherint promise as an aid in LD because of it's conscious/subconscious boundary dissolving characteristics, as is the case with most entheogenic substances. My main point was to be very careful when experimenting with a bunch of chemicals wrapped up in botanical form or otherwise which completely obliterate the distinction between where "you" start and where the environment ends. In some cases, the R.E.M. rebound effect is one reason why a chemical(and chemicals do include things like "foods") might aid in a deliberate LD enhancement, and sometimes, the overlapping awareness between usually seperate psychological functions might be the cause. But as to Salvia D. in particular, I'm not familiar with an insomnia side-effect. But then again, every individual is unique and may react differently to the same stimuli. As for the duaration of the salvia trance, the effects are only between 5 and 20 minutes long, the residue being what you learn during that time-that may last forever.

Thank you, Derek.

You mentioned food. The last time I visited this thread--before reading the posts re. SD--I was considering drugs and LD and cheating, and thinking about how intimately we are involved with chemicals and chemical processes--how/what we process, process what we process, and are processed. Breakfast cereals, sodas, cigarettes, fast foods, vitamins, alcohol, cough syrups, organic foods, antidepressants, party drugs, dairy foods, green foods, herbal supplements... "19,000 different ways to order a cup of [typically narcoticated] coffee"... macrobiotics, microbiotics... air and water... ...all of which, when swallowed, smoked, shot, whatever, produce patterns of chemical reactions that determine, at least in part (more or less), our behavior, including lucid dreams (this was recognized, perhaps ad absurdum, by the alchemists, from whom we inherited chemistry).

Like you said, "...the distinction between where 'you' start and where the environment ends."

It was food for thought (NPI).

Joshua

For Gordon's sake! I should have included French toast in my list, above. [wink]

Dominick,

I was a little surprised not to find Benny Shannon's book Antipodes of the mind: Charting the Phenomenology of the Ayahuasca Experience on the recommended reading list. I've not read it yet, but it sounds very exhaustive and scientific. It was referenced a lot in the entertaining book I just finished, Ayahuasca by Joan Parisi Wilcox and the quotes from it there are fascinating.

By the way, Shannon has an interesting article available online regarding the effect of ayahuasca on the perception of time: Being Outside the Dominion of Time.

a.

Dominick

I have a few questions regarding the brew itself: can you tell me, or point me to where I can find out, what the exact composition of the brew used will be? Will it be a standard B. caapi and Psychotria viridis brew? In what percentages? (My understanding is that variations on the percentage of each of these plants will make the brew more purgative or more visionary - I'm assuming we'll be aiming for the more visionary side of the equation.) Will there be admixture plants, or will those be optionally available if requested? I've read somewhere recently that there is an admixture added to a brew by some people which contains more 5-meo-DMT than the standard brew, and is much more likely to lead to "out of body" travel. I haven't been able to track down the reference so far. Do you know anything about this?

Thanks for any information.

a.

For those who are interested, here is an article by Margot Williams about one of Luis Eduardo Luna's ayahuasca intensives: A Brazilian Ayahuasca Intensive at Wasiwaska (House of the Vine) Research Center for the Study of Psychointegrator Plants, Visionary Art and Consciousness. Dominick, is this the center where the retreat will be held? It looks/sounds amazing!

a.

A-

Benny S is on staff at Wasiwaska. His book is good but I'd advise the other's by Metzner and Luna as primary. As a congnitive psychologist there is a lot of structural overlay from this discipline on the experience & it's interpretation. If you like the Shannon work, please do read on. I attended a seminar with him and Luis last August. Frankly, my favorite (that also addresses the brew & strength) is Metzner's book - Ayahuasca- a much better primer for starters.

Dominick

Hi A -

No, the House of the Vine is in Florinopolis, Brazil on the Atlantic coast. Unfortunately, this facility can only handle 10-12 total visitors at this time and can't house a full seminar like we're planning.

We will be using Luis's other locale in the Amazonian Jungle outside Manaus. It's an old plantation converted into an Ecotourist retreat and about 1hr outside of the Amazonian capital by bus and then boat. Very Nice. Much more appropriate for first visitations with Ayahuasca- the heartbeat of the jungle can be heard without trying. At this facility we have a full staff, room for 25+, and multiple excursions into the jungle.

A- I'll address your other detailed questions about the inside story of the brew etc off-line. Not really relevant to the LDing forum but rather to the seminar details for those attending.

cheers,

-- Dominick

I just found an online article by James Kent which explains how psychedelics may be triggering processes in the brain similar to those in action during the dreaming process. He writes:Quote:

I agree that DMT visions are not dreams, but suspect they utilize the same brain organs and neural circuitry that dreams do to produce the internal imagery. Psychedelic visuals are generally kinetic geometric matrices (2-D or 3-D depending on substance and level of trip, DMT being very good at producing 3-D matrices) with "embedded images" which emerge from the matrix, morph, and fade along with the user's own train of thought or subconscious inclinations. The geometric matrices are a result of the visual processing system falling into a chaotic state, thus causing sensory feedback, overlapping frames and trails, and frame-translation errors such as visual flanging, perspective distortion, etc. The eye receives light on the retina in a series of concentric circles with the highest concentration in the center. We only receive about 80%-90% of the actual picture of what's in front of us on the retina, and the rest (like the stuff left out on the periphery and in the blind spot) is "added in" by our brain's ability to fill in the missing pieces of reality. This "fill in the blank" aspect of the brain is not perfect, and sometimes causes us to mistakenly see something "out of the corner of our eye" which on closer inspection is not actually there. Along the pathway from the retina to the prefrontal cortex, the sense data must be translated from a series of concentric rings of dots to a concrete image of outlines, fills, and shading that we perceive as reality. This process is called "frame translation." Hard lines are etched out on our retina by a process called "lateral inhibition", which allows one retina to take priority over the retina next to it if it perceives a hard line or shift in shading that infers depth or outline. If lateral inhibition is inhibited, the edges of what we see tend to drift and blur, causing perspective distortion, creeping light and shadows, and patterns that seem to crawl. At more dramatic levels of this kind of activity, the "frame" of reality actually begins to rotate and twist, and if you have "trails" on the outlines of an image that is rotating in space, you create a complex 2-D geometric lattice. If this lattice twists forwards or backwards it produces depth of field, thus a swirling 3-D matrix appears.

Okay, so that is part one. These shifting lines and shadows and geometric lattice imagery I have described should be familiar to anyone who has taken a psychedelic tryptamine. Now when you add an over-active "dream engine" trying to impose patterns and order on these morphing kinetic matrices, (not to mention visual synethesia) an infinite number of patterns and visions can emerge. They are unlike dreams in that they do not appear as a alternate version of hard reality, but this is because dream data comes from the hippocampus (compressed memory), which stores data from everyday stuff. DMT data comes from the brain's own pattern-matching systems trying to impose order on a chaotic patterns, thus "filling in the blanks" and trying to piece together what is going on. This is probably why "visuals" become more elaborate on the periphery (i.e. in the corner of the eye where there is more capacity to extrapolate missing data) and become less-so when examined front and center. For example, "elves" tend to hang out and bounce around in the periphery, and tend to disappear or "drift" with the visual field when you try to focus directly on them.

Since the patterns and imagery we see in the psychedelic state are so "alien" to our normal sensory input, it is no wonder that the landscapes and visions that our brain imposes on them are likewise very alien. That said, I have seen all kinds of mundane stuff in DMT visions: toasters, faces of people I know (usually family), people copulating, scenes of human suffering and warfare, clowns and harlequins, trains, skulls, trees, oceans, sunsets, animals, dancing cartoon rats, silken sand-dunes, spider-webs, strands of DNA, rotating atomic and molecular structures, etc. This is all very terrestrial stuff. So DMT visuals can be pieced together from bits of memory and imagination. The basic difference between dreams and DMT visuals is that dreams are snippets of incongruous memories forced into a consistent narrative by the pre-frontal cortex; DMT visuals are chaotic geometric patterns forced into a consistent narrative by the prefrontal cortex. The source of the data is different (though sometimes overlapping), but the process of turning random data into "contextual meaning" happens in the same place in the brain, whether we are awake, dreaming, or tripping.

The entire article, The Case Against DMT Elves is quite interesting and primarily argues against the idea that the "elves" seen in DMT visions have an autonomous existence. The author mentions that he is quite experienced in lucid dreaming and is clearly open to the idea of sacred or transpersonal dimensions to such experiences, but approaches the subject from a refreshingly skeptical perspective that takes brain science into account.

Hey, looks like Stephen LaBerge spoke at the last Altered States and the Spirtual Awakening conference in San Francisco last month. Did anyone here attend? Would love to hear about it. I quite enjoyed the one I attended in 2003.

a.

Mind Expansion Chain:

Several of you have shown interest in the Experimental Lucid Dreaming Seminar in the Amazon with Stephen LaBerge & Luis Eduardo Luna to explore dreams and the visions of Ayahuasca.

We are about to announce this special joint seminar more broadly to the TLI member list and public. Spaces are very limited, so consider this a "last call" for active Forum participants.

If any of you have interest, please do ping me via my mail address in the forum profile.

Shimmering Dreams,

Dominick TLI Special Programs Coordinator