i know that at least in certain occasions the movement of the dream eyes corresponds to that of the 'corporeal' eyes of the sleeping body-this is what made LaBerge's proof-of-lucid dreaming experiments possible in the laboratory. i am also aware that most researches claim that this synchronicity of movement is not always, or as i've seen stated-usually-not the case. i don't know if this corresponding eye movement is most often parallel or not, but i have observed my girlfriend's eye movement as well as my dog's on several occasions(by the way, dog's are interesting to watch regarding REM eye movement from an outsider's perspective because they may spend many hours during the day in REM sleep). what i have noticed(especially with the dog)is very interesting for at least two reasons-1.the eyelids are occasionally so open that i can see the pupils and at instances the eyes are staring right at my face if my face is in the right relative position(this borders on frightening), yet i know that the dog is asleep and i suspect is not aware of my presence, and-2.the eye moevement often places the dreaming dog's eye into positions that would not be conducive to usefull sight in the waking environment, such as up in the eye socket beyond the level allowing sight if the animal were awake, or too far down, or left or right in a like manner. what is going on here? i am slightly familiar with NLP and from that 'science' i might hypothize that these movements are in fact activating various brain centers, such as stored memories, emotions, or processing mechanisms, rather than physically(from the dreaming dog-body's perspective) looking around the dream environment. and then today i found a therapy technique while searching the web, called RET(rapid eye therapy) that simulates the way the mind functions in REM sleep by having the subject rapidly blink while a wand or finger is positioned before her field of view and moved about in order to track the eyes onto it's movement. i just thought this RET is in some ways related to the interesting phenomena i have noticed with my dog. anyway, if anyone-including the staff here-can point me to any information on the possible connection between REM and NLP, or eye correspondence to brain/mind/thought mechanisms, i would be very appreciative.

hi Derek,

There is a fact concerning REM and "physical eyes".

While you are dreaming your corporeal eyes move. They are connected to the brain and the brain itself is connected with ethereal and astral body. The things you see while you are dreaming are seen by your ASTRAL eyes. So the more your astral eyes have evolved, the more vivid pictures will be....

Nenad:

Please note that there is, as yet, no proof regarding connections with, or the existence of, astral or ethereal bodies. Please try to be careful to avoid stating as fact ideas which are not proven, regardless of how firmly you may hold them.

As far as we currently know and can prove, REM is a physical motion of the eyes during sleep which occurs because the eyes are still physically connected to the brain during sleep (as opposed to limbs, which are disconnected through sleep paralysis to keep us from wandering off during dreams). There is nothing provably astral going on, and vividness of dreams most likely does not depend on astral eyes' evolution.

We certainly appreciate your posts, and enjoy the exploration of your ideas, but, in order to avoid taking this forum to places it was not meant to go, please be sure to term those ideas as such, and not as facts.

Thanks for your understanding, and for all of your contributions to our forums.

Peter TLI Forum Moderator

Hi Peter

I see you are not familiar with Theosophical studies. As such you should read Rudolph Steiner's books concerning life,dreams, death and other anthroposophy stuff. I know this is not a place to discuss such matters but in many of his projects he described the pattern of dreaming and recognition as that is connected to some ancient doctrines of Egyptians and Tibetians. In fact there are astral eyes...

That is presumably out of your minds' recognition so I will close this topic as far as I am concerned

Nenad:

Thank you for understanding.

Also, please note that I am quite familiar with theosophical studies (my favorites are Alice Bailey and H.P. Blavatsky). The concepts of this discipline are happily not out of my mind's recognition, as far as I can tell. That I am aware of a concept, however, does not mean that I must accept it, especially because the sole proof used by most theosophical prophets is "Because I said so." I am also familiar with all of the writings of the great Dr. Seuss, but that does not have me up in arms protecting the rights of oppressed Who's.

Please be reminded that the Lucidity Institute is at its core a scientific institution. Though they do often dabble in eastern concepts and practice(just browse the forum topics for proof), all is discussed in the context of western science, where knowledge comes from facts drawn from experimentation and experience. This knowledge can certainly be colored by theosophical influences, and we welcome your input, but it cannot derive facts from them.

I certainly do hope all this makes sense to you, and be reminded again that I deeply value your numerous contributions, and I look forward to your future thoughts on other subjects.

The Best Of Dreams,

Peter

I see...

I'll try to hold on to "only dreams" subject and educate dreamers about other dreaming stuff

Sweet dreams,

Nenad

Nenad,

I find your attitude shockingly arrogant. Excuse me for being frank - but if you truely feel that you are right then why on earth do you choose to express it in such a rude fashion?

There is NO scientific proof for your statements, If you have any evidence OUTSIDE of theosophical studies then please do share it, otherwise i will take your opinions in the same way that i accept any religious belief that attempts to "prove" itself by refering to internal literature.

There is nothing wrong with exploring unproven aspects of anything in life - but to go around claiming that religious/new age theories are FACT is simply misinformation. If you really want to educate people then work within a framework that is accepted worldwide - i'm not saying it isn't worthy to explore beyond this - but unless your explorations and findings "outside the box" can then be harnessed and proven within humanitys shared structure for understanding the world - science - then do not be offended when people take you less than seriously.

Please do not throw the old argument "much is not understood by science" at me, because yes i fully agree - however, if you claim that something is fact and that you have literature to back this up - then why exactly if the evidence is so strong would science have not picked up upon this - after all, all the hard work has been done has it not?

I am sorry for my harsh tone - but if you will take such a self aggrandising tone then you must occasionally expect others to take offence. Or perhaps this is "out of your minds recognition" - my goodness how rude that is!

Den,

now listen...

There is no arrogancy or rudeness at all in my statements. I just have a much more experience in dreaming then you could possibly think of.

There is no need to express such an arrogant and offensive tone since for quarrel you need two people not just one.

I have already stated that this topic is closed for me since it is not acceptable on this forum.

And finally... Yes, I have evidence out of theosophical studies and for that reason I believe in abovementioned

Nenad,

I have been teaching lucid dreaming here in the UK for the past 8 years or so. I can certainly think of a great deal when it comes to Dreaming - clearly it is a vast subject and i still feel like very much a novice in the field - but i think that is a healthy and realistic attitude to adopt in any largely uncharted subject. What i have learn't in my years of study is that Dreaming is a subject that is repeatedly hijacked by the less than scientfic and sometimes outright stoneage belief systems; because of it's very hidden private nature. This leads me to be very cynical to people who claim some hidden knowledge that despite claims of evidence rarely if ever deliver this evidence to others, morover claims that clearly contradicts studies by others who do offer detailed and repeatable studies.

And yes there is arrogance in your statements, for instance your assumption that you are somehow higher, better than others is arrogance. "i just have much more experience in dreaming than you could possibly think of" This to me and i would imagine many others is an arrogant statement. At the very least how can you know what i or any other memeber of this forum can "possibly think of" this assumption in itself is arrogant. Now perhaps you are some kind of Dreaming master - i cannot possibly know, and it would be foolish of me to make an opinion based on no firm evidence - however - you cannot in any way know whether you are at a level that is higher than myself or others - assuming so is arrogance based on a belief in your own greatness.

Offer us all evidence of this vast dreaming knowledge you claim to have (or are we all to dim to understand?) and evidence of the "facts" stated earlier and i will happily retract my statements. But until then i will consider what you say as an offence to my own and the other members of this forums intelligence.

I may be a little arrogant myself at time, point taken, but one thing means more to me than my pride and that is that those who claim to tell the truth do not mislead others. If that means i have to sometimes say things that i would rather not, and risk the occasional quarrel then why not? We could all sit around agreeing with each other until we all end up in our own private delusions of genius It would be a pleasant world but a false world. The times i've learnt the most in life is often when i have to prove myself and my way of looking at life - more often than not resulting in a faliure for my world models to hold up - sometimes a horrible blow to ones ego - but a great chance to grow.

All i ask is that you treat us with the respect and intelligence that you would expect yourself.

So if your facts are simply theories then please make it clear - if they ARE facts offer the evidence. Give us the chance to make our own minds up.

Guys... I found a site you might you might want to check out, it's from Princeton University, and it's called Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research. I have a degree in mechanical engineering, and also happen to be an avid lucid dreamer since I was a child, so it's right up my alley, and you might find it interesting as well. It's a scientific research group at Princeton that attempts to determine the effects, if there are any, of human consciousness on the physical world (although I haven't read over the whole site, I haven't seen any direct referrences to lucid dreaming on there though).

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

Jason

I think this is not a place for such discussions. There is much more "spiritual" then "organic" in lucid dreaming, so it would take a lot of time and space for explanations. I would state a few facts that are importan to dreaming,astral connection, and organic life.

The lucid dreaming is the first symptom of ecclesiastical,spiritual change of one's inner self, thus it cannot be understood as a goal.

R.E.M. phase is just in coorelation to individual perception of dreaming. We cannot discuss about "part of the brain that produces dreams", as there is no concrete electro-neurological interaction that we can put under the "concrete thought", for example " I fly over the green meadow". As long as there is no possibility of reproduction of concrete thought by stimulation( or by copying the very specifical neural interaction) of the neurons, we cannot talk about the genesis of a dream (or deliberate perception) in the brain. EEG researches via computer tomograph, pointed out to a fact that the people who have achieved "the most intensive and perceptual part of meditation", had their brain engaged at the lowest level....typical for the dream without dreams, or better to say-the mild,benign level of coma.

That was the proof that the higher perception was independant of organic. It was more "spiritual" than vice versa.

It is very difficult for the average mind to grasp the reality of that which we cannot see with our physical eyes

In another direction also our senses are limited. We are not able to see the very air that surrounds us. Our primary senses give us no indication of its existence, except that when it is in motion we are aware of it by the sense of touch.

The astral world is second above the nature. It is also called illusonary world.Why illusionary? It was because of the extreme unreliability of the impressions brought back from it by the untrained.

So, when you achieve a greater state of inner self, would it be by LUCID DREAMING or by MEDITATION, you should be aware of the fact that both of those were not to be taken as goals or objectives yet as the means to achive the greater enlightment of your inner self.

When you level your "eyes" up at the higher level you should be able to perceive the things in your dreams differently then you have perceived them up to that point. In some of lucid dreams I've had so far, the things I saw and perceived were not the people, the places, the familiar things. Those were colors, spirals, "transparent beings" while my awareness of the lucidity was constant. That dissapeared very quickly and returned as the images of well known things, the things which I encounter in every day life. Many people who practise meditation will tell you when in the peak state of meditation, they also see spirals, colors and other unusual things. In both cases(LUCIDITY and MEDITATION) the inner self was risen at a higher level. The higher level made possible for us to see things not normally seen.

By practising Lucidity and/or meditation your "inner self" will develop slightly. To develop it more we must forget many "earthly pleasures", but that is the story that would lead us very far. So, the idea of "astral organs" should not be taken literally.

The God made the people as spiritual beings not just organic. That is what differs us from the animals. The perception of inner self....and that perception is not perceived by physical, organic things...

Nenad

Nenad:

Fascinating stuff, really, but you were absolutely right in stating that this forum is not a place for such discussions.

Daniel:

You might have a response to Nenad's proof, but, to avoid this continuing (and possibly drawing in others who lack Nenad's informed convictions but are willing to chat to permanent distraction about unprovable but exciting concepts that have little or nothing to do with lucid dreaming), how about letting it go?

So let's put the brakes on this discussion right now, and maybe go back to addressing Derek's original question about eye movements, sans mystical applications!

Thanks guys... We truly appreciate your cooperation on this and, as always, we value your input into all things lucid.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

TLI Forum Moderator