On another forum (Lucid Dreaming 4 All) a guy named Pedro has developed a method he calls VILD (Visually Incubated Lucid Dreams). It is a combination of MILD, WILD, dream incubation and reality checks and I have to say it's brilliantly designed. It worked the first time he tried it and he says he has had 100% success with it since then.

He mentally constructed a situation in which he is in a room with two of his friends who encourage him to do reality checks, he does the reality checks and becomes lucid. He practiced visualizing this situation until he could repeat it in his mind the same way every time.

While falling asleep and after waking during the night, he carries out a form of WILD in which he repeats this situation over and over in his mind, allowing himself to think of nothing else. Pretty soon, his visualizations begin forming as hypnogogic imagery and eventually the situation appears as a dream with full visual and audio. He says most of the time that at this point, he can get lost in it and doesn't realize it's a dream, but when he comes to the point where he does the reality check, he becomes lucid every time.

He has had 60 lucid dreams so far this month and can become lucid completely at will, even though he heard of lucid dreaming for the first time last May.

He describes his method, its development and the timeline of his experience with lucid dreaming on the other forum. I've asked permission to repeat his post here and waiting for his reply.

Although this incorporates elements from techniques that have been around, I haven't seen this approach before. Has anyone else seen anything like this? At the lucid crossroads, there is something similar called the Gatekeeper, which involves incubating a "Lucid Dreaming Lobby', but the gatekeeper just opens a door for you, he doesn't remind you to do a reality check. What a simple, but powerful difference!

Please note: This post has been edited as I realized on further investigation that some of my points no longer hold. If you receive updates via email then this is quite different from the post you shall have received - so no need to reality test - oh but go on, you should anyhow!!***

Hi Gordon,

Yes, I've tried an almost identical method before, as i came up with something very similar a few years back - i guess really it's just the next logical step from sleep incubation for those interested in Lucid Dreaming. I've checked up the link and read the original... Interesting but raises some questions,

One problem i find with the method is the use of incubated dream characters - it's only a niggle really, but I've often found that dream characters have a habit of misleading you away from lucidity (given half the chance!) It would be better, i feel, if rather than incubating dream characters to remind you to reality test, why not imagine a digital read out (with a large bold heading: DO A REALITY TEST) with a simple digital counter below to use as the test device?

Reading other posts by the same chap (Pedro) i wouldn't be suprised if it is not so much the methods he is employing as his general enthusiasm and drive to be lucid that is the source of his success - if he is indeed having such PHENOMENAL luck.

Pedro in one of his posts mentions something similar to; considering waking perception and dreaming perception as essentiality variations in the input source of our mental models. Many will recognize this as a more accurate version of the simplified dream method of 'considering all things as dreams.' Now if he is having such luck then perhaps this attitude also plays an important role? It certainly helps me to think of things in these terms. After all it makes the experience of a lucid dream far less obscure and out-of-reach when we realize the simple fact that it is only a simple shift of input source >>physical sensory(yet still memory filtered) based input (waking)<< to >>internal memory based input(dreaming)<< - rather than reaching some distant dreamworld or other such attitude.

Not wanting to be or sound argumentative (it's always so hard to know exactly the tone your text will be read in!) I just wonder if it's the technique or simply mental focus that is causing the claimed success?

That being said, it can no doubt help to incorporate strong visual links to remind us to reality test in dream incubation. Memory always works so much better when we create vivid and varied links in our minds.

By the way have you had any luck with this method so far?

Sweet dreams, Daniel

Hello again,

Just realized i had a few more points on this subject,

Being a long term lucid dream enthusiast and having held regular workshops on the subject - i must say i have never encountered anyone whom has had 2 lucid dreams every night for a month (as Pedro claims.) I'm not saying such a thing isn't possible, but we all know just how much effort is involved in lucid dream induction and the potential some methods have for disrupting sleep patterns. It just seems a little unlikely.

No to be too cynical, but us humans do have a habit of exaggerating - and the net does seem to act as a bit of a catalyst for this.

I took the liberty to look at a few of Pedros other posts, just to get a feel for his level of experience, knowledge etc. To be frank (and by no means to undermine the chap - i just want to know the source) many of the posts contradict the claims of 100% success in this technique.

Now i know it may seem a little naughty to say this, but after doing quite extensive reading of Pedros posts in the 'lucid dreaming 4 all' forum - i am very cynical of his abilities - For several reasons...

1, He seems rather young from some of his comments (using lucid dreaming to practice skate boarding - seems maybe to back this up?) - not that this is a bad thing! - just perhaps a little more prone to exaggeration (I already feel bad about writing this - but I'm only going on how i was as a teenager)

2. More importantly his methods for reality testing seem flawed - for instance closing one eye and trying (with the open eye) to see your nose, no nose = dreaming. Now i can see no reason why this would be the case? Most reality tests rely on the dream states inherent instability - this technique may work in some expectation sense, but I'm sure my mind would be able to generate a dream nose..,

3.Very little positive response for the VILD methods success rate (for others) posted on the site (but alot of positive response for writing a post longer than a few lines, Also Pedro writes:

" I am very glad I can have my LD's now but I'm even more glad that everyone gave me such a positive responce there!!!"

Really? I personally would be far more pleased to have mastered lucid dreaming to the extent of - 77 in January!! - than the posts saying how great you are for doing this.

Now PLEASE don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to bad mouth anyone. Simply if we are to research lucid dreaming for the good of all involved - it is vital we are utterly honest about our ability. Lucid dreaming is still in its infancy - no methods have been proven 100% foolproof, also (as far as i am aware) no one has yet been -scientifically proven- to be able to induce lucidity on command 100% of the time. If this were the case, and such methods did exist - forums like this would very quickly become quite obsolete (why would we need them?)

Don't take my word for it though, if you want to judge the validity of these comments etc. You can visit the forum here:

http://ld4all.com/forum/

(Not a huge fan of it myself.)

Once again, I'm not looking to bad mouth Pedro - I may turn out to be quite wrong (and if i am then this would be wonderful). I'm just looking for answers and would rather avoid possible wishful thinking and role playing.

Part of the fun of lucid dreaming for me is trying to work out just how your doing it (i.e. trying to discover which methods you are employing are the ones that induce your lucidity.)

Anyhow, I do hope i haven't come across as a tyrant, I just REALLY feel we need decent objective(as possible), honest reports regarding our practices, abilities and experiences.

Sweet dreams to you all,

Daniel

Wow. You seem extremely convinced that he is not telling the truth. I found his posts rather convincing. I guess with anything, it comes down to whether you think there is enough potential to make it worth pursuing it. Right now I'm preparing to try this method and see how it works.

Anyway, here is his post describing his method.

V.I.L.D

Visually Incubated Lucid Dream

OK guys, Pedro here. VILD is the method I use to induce lucid dreams and in this document I will do my best to describe how the method is used.

I have practiced and refined different ideas and techniques to come up with the best possible method for me to become lucid and I can now induce a lucid dream at will. I call it VILD. Hopefully you will also be able to use my method either directly or by taking parts from it to create an induction technique which may work better for you.

A few things before I go onto the VILD method...

"MIND MODEL"

First thing is first though......I tried explaining this method to some friends who try to lucid dream and I was shocked to discover they knew nothing of the "mind model"! I think anyone (using my method or not) should understand the mind model to achieve lucid dreams! Please read and understand this next section as it will greatly aid you in having lucid dreams!

You. I am going to talk about YOU. I want you to understand (if you do not already) that YOU cannot see. YOU cannot hear. YOU cannot taste. YOU also can't feel anything. I'll take sight for this example:

YOU do not see because it's your EYES that see. You are only your mind, you are your brain. This might seem strange but keep reading. Imagine there is a tree in front of you. YOU cannot see the tree but your eyes do. Your eyes see the tree first hand and the vision they see is totally 100% pure! The eyes then turn this pure image into DATA and send it to you! You do not see, it is your eyes that see. When you stand in front of a tree you think you can see it and the rest of the world, but the tree you see is only a model based on reality. Your mind takes all the information and data it can from the senses and creates a model of the world. This "mind model" is how you experience your world. Technically one of your senses could make a mistake or send some kind of corrupted data and the world you see would actually be different from the REAL world, but this is almost never the case. I hope you understood that...

A good example to back this up is radio waves! We have instruments that detect light (eyes) and instruments that detect sound waves (ears) so our mind model has these elements in the model. We do not have instruments that detect radio waves, we have no sense to interpret them or even show they exist. Therefore, we see no radio waves shooting around in our world! They are there in the real physical world. The radio waves are there as much as the trees are or the sound of your voice. They are not in our mind model though as we have no sense that detects them so they are not used to construct our mind model!

Now here is where dreaming comes in.... You experience your world in the same way when you are dreaming. The only difference is that your mind doesn't receive many signals from your senses when you are asleep. This lack of external information is countered by creating the mind model from mostly INTERNAL information such as wishes and memories. This is how a dream is created!

Now I hope you understand that, even in real life, the world you are experiencing is not actually the real world but a model of the world which is created in your mind. If you know this information when attempting lucid dreams it should help a lot.

Throughout the day you should stop and think about the world around you. Think about everything you can possibly tell about the world at that moment. Sight, sound, touch and think about how everything you experience is a model of the physical world. Think hard about it for a couple of minutes. Now on to another thing you should do a lot during the day...

REALITY CHECKS

I'm sure everyone reading this knows that a Reality Check is an action used to determine whether the world around us is real or a dream. I would like to recommend two reality checks which always work with me and do not rely on any object or other character in a dream. (Plus these ones don't make you look stupid if testing while in real life!).

1. Close one eye and try to look at your nose with your open eye. If you can see your nose then you are awake. If you cannot then you are asleep.

Whether a reality check turns out positive or negative you should ALWAYS perform a backup one just incase. No matter how sure you are of the results from the last check.

After you've checked to see your nose you should try this:

2. Hold your nose tight and try to breathe through it. If you can you are certainly dreaming.

V.I.L.D. Induction

VILD is my own method. It came about when I discovered I could incubate dreams of my choice. Incubation is when you go to sleep aiming to have a certain dream and "incubating" this dream in a way that you eventually go into the desired dream. Before I explain how I incubate dreams I will go through the rest of the method in brief. After I've went through the whole method briefly I will then describe the whole method part-by-part in detail.

In Brief After a discussion on the LD4all.com forum I discovered how I could use my incubated dreams to get me lucid. I was told that I could incubate a dream where I was forced to do a Reality Check. I managed to design a dream where I would always remember to perform a Reality Check. This dream is the dream I would then incubate from now on and it has had a 100% success rate with me so far.

I enter the dream, do the reality check, and become lucid.

VILD Method In Full

Ok, this will be a long section so I will split it up slightly. I have split the VILD method into the following three sections:

• PREPARATION

• INCUBATION

• ONCE YOU ARE LUCID

PREPARATION

The key points in the preparation of VILD are:

1. To have a dream designed early on and to keep to this dream no matter what.
2. The correct times and actions when going to bed and when going to sleep.

Firstly you need a dream ready to incubate right now. After this next paragraph I would like you to sit and plan the dream out exactly. When I say dream I actually mean a dream "situation". This is the exact dream I incubate every single night, hopefully this will make a good example:

"I am in a room. The room is a normal shape and is totally bare and empty. The only details about the room are the fact that it is painted a dark red and that there is a door. I am in this room and so are two of best friends, A and C. They both come running up to me and say "Do a reality check! This is a Reality Check competition!" over and over again. I then agree and I close one eye and look for my nose and I cannot see it. I tell them that I might be dreaming. I then try holding my nose and checking if I can breathe or not. I find I can breathe quite easily and I look at my friends and say "I am dreaming!". My friends look at me with pleased faces and I head for the door in the room."

This is the dream situation which I use. Your dream can be like this one or totally different, that is your choice. Pick whatever is comfortable for you, if mine sounds good then use it by all means! BUT take note:

Don't plan the whole dream, only this situation. Don't make an end for the dream or any kind of plot change. Keep it simple! Think of it as a small part before a proper dream rather than designing a whole dream.

Make sure that the same characters (I use 2 friends) and in the dream every time and that they always do and say the exact same stuff each time. Keep it constant!

Also keep YOUR reactions constant! Always see yourself doing and saying the same things just as you do with the other characters. Keep everything the same order every time!

The idea is that you will have this dream so planned that you know EXACTLY where everyone is located, what they say, what they do and how they act. This means that each time you imagine the dream it should be the exact same. No changes...EVER! Please take the time to plan it now. If you do decide to plan it later could you please come back and read this again incase you forget a key point when planning! I really think you should do it now.....NOW DAMN IT!

Next part of the PREPARATION is what you should do leading up to going to bed.

This may seem vague but the best time to go to bed is not too late but not too early. OK, perhaps I should go into more detail there! Do not go any earlier than is natural for you. Any earlier than you usually go to bed and you will have trouble getting to sleep and you will be too awake for VILD to work. You need to go to bed when you are feeling tired but do not overdo it! Don't go to bed at about 4.00am or something stupid! I recommend getting into bed at about 11pm personally. If you are someone who goes to sleep very early then maybe 10pm or 10.30pm would be better. Try to get into bed before midnight though.

Sometime before you have went to bed you should have had a little something to eat and washed it down with a drink. You should then have went to the toilet as this is a major cause of waking up from dreams! Make sure there is a good time gap between drinking and using the toilet. If you choose to go to bed at 11pm then you should eat and drink at 10pm. Eat and drink whatever you would usually have at this time of the night, don't change drastically as it can disrupt your sleep.

I'm going to assume that everyone chooses to go bed at 11pm. This is what I do when using VILD...

Get into bed at 11pm and have a lamp or some kind of light source beside your bed. Also keep your dream journal and your pen/pencil handy. (BY THE WAY: Write using a weird colour in your dream journal and never use that colour anywhere else....try it out...). Turn the main bedroom lights out and turn the lamp on. Now you should read a book for about an hour. I say an hour because after an hour I am usually having some difficulty keeping my eyes open and find it hard to read. If you get like this after half an hour it should still be fine. Push yourself to read an extra 10 minutes to insure you are pretty damn tired. Now put the book down and turn of the lamp. Make sure you do not need to get up to turn the lamp on or off. This is so you don't make any movements that can get you more awake and this is also why you shouldn't use the bedroom lights! Lie down and relax in darkness...

TIP: Read a book about lucid dreaming if you can get one! This is the best choice of book although any book will do essentially as it is only to get you tired but keep your brain fairly active. The reason a lucid dreaming book would be good is that if you have just read things about lucid dreaming they stay with you. So even if you do not directly think about anything you read when you go to sleep you probably do subconsciously. It is good to have these thoughts of lucid dreaming in your head even if your not thinking about them, this is also why I mentioned the "Mind Model" as having this knowledge in your head will greatly increase your chances of becoming lucid.

Whenever I read about lucid dreaming and relaxation I see MILLIONS of different positions to lie in. Forget them and also forget about positions altogether! The more you think about how you are lying it keeps your UNrelaxed! Just lie any way you want and just basically do what you usually do. Changing your position in bed from its normal one can disrupt sleep. Just get in the bed and r e l a x.......

Some techniques for relaxation are crap and some are truly helpful. Try downloading some relaxation/hypnosis sound files from the net. Some are not very good but I've found some great ones. Try warpmymind.com for a couple of really relaxing files! A good method is the one where you start from your toes are work your way up. What you do is you tense the muscles in that certain part fop the body your working on. You tense for about 30 seconds and then you just stop and let the body part relax. Feel it get heavy then work your way up to the next limb or body part. When you reach your head sit and focus on the point between your eyes in the middle of your head. Imagine it getting emptier and emptier while you get more and more relaxed and sleepy. You will feel very heavy.

INCUBATION

This is the process for actually incubating your pre-designed dream which you hopefully will have practiced thinking about during the day. Remember...keep it EXACT!

When you feel sufficiently relaxed you should be ready to begin straight away. Hopefully you will be starting to feel sleepy by now after that book read! This is perfect as the technique for incubation requires you to think of nothing else other than your dream. If you are not tired at all and you'll be awake for several hours it could be disastrous! Who could think about their dream EXACTLY over and over again for hours!? Not me anyway! So hopefully you will be near sleep...

Close your eyes. You should be tired enough to have your eyes closed no matter what anyway! Now think of the dream as you did earlier. Think about it happening around you. Whenever you get through it you must start again straight away. Keep thinking about it. After a couple of time try "seeing" the dream. Imagine the dream happening right before your eyes. Remember your eyes should be closed. You should start to see shapes or at least still images from your dream. This should be like daydreaming, try to see the dream moving and alive in front of you. Remember to keep the dream CONSTANT every time!

Try not to see yourself in your dream, see the dream through your eyes just as you would if you were in the dream. Don't go too far in your thoughts...Once you discover you are lucid and tell your friends you should then start over. Don't think about what happens next except you head for the door perhaps. This isn't important because you will be lucid by then in your dream and not need to remember to use the door!

If you notice yourself thinking of ANYTHING else, other than the dream, you must forget about the thought and just let it go. Don't think about a thought! Don't answer any of them. Ignore it and think even harder on the dream when this happens.

Be patient, don't think "ah i don't feel like I'm about to dream or sleep, I'll leave it for a while". Once your finished your dream situation just rethink it. Over and over and over and over and over!

You will not realise the transition between these thoughts and the actual dream.....but eventually you will enter the dream...

At the time you will just think you are still just imagining your thoughts and then suddenly you will do the Reality Checks and you REALLY will be dreaming!!! How strange! Now head out that door, after thanking your friends of course!

ONCE YOU ARE LUCID

Now that you are lucid you can do whatever you like. My VILD method stops now and this is technically the end of the document but I would like to comment on some techniques I have discovered through experiments in my dreams. These are all for use once you are lucid.

"SHORTCUTS"

A shortcut is a little technique I've developed and I accidentally titled it a "shortcut" when describing it to a friend and the name has stuck. There are different levels of lucidity and some people can start very lucid and other have trouble. Absolute lucidity is the state I have reached where I can literally do ANYTHING. Full stop. Some people become lucid but not fully lucid, this is what I used to be like. For example you may be able to fly and walk through walls which is impressive but if asked to create a house from nothing, right in front of you, you may have problems. This would be because you do not have full control yet. A shortcut is something that skips needing to have full control which doesn't seem to improve you but it does in the end......I think an example is needed here:

You cannot fly. You are lucid though and you can do other things but flying is too hard. Even though it's all in your head you just can't take off! Instead of just trying to fly you should take a different approach....try creating a jetpack! Or a rucksack with wings! Anything that would give you flight. Now you can fly! This is what I call a shortcut. These shortcuts seem to make matters worse because they do not improve overall control. They just make the task easier. But this is not true! You just need to do one more thing which you have done before....become aware!.....

You become lucid by becoming aware that you are in a dream and that nothing in your world is real. This sudden awareness is needed again once your up there flying around with your jetpack on. Become aware that the jetpack is not real. It does not exist and is only another part of your mind! Therefore, you don't really need it at all to fly! You can fly yourself as the jetpack was never really there!

Shortcuts allow you to achieve what you want and they can also be used to get more fuller control in the long run!

Shortcuts could be used for many things! Having trouble creating people? Draw pictures of them on a magic scrapbook so they appear! Having trouble morphing or body swapping? Use a magic body swaping kiss or a sex change gun or anything your imagination can think of!

PROLONGING YOUR LUCIDITY

Spinning is known to be the best method for prolonging lucidity. I do not think it is the best but I do believe it is the best out of all the common techniques. The reason it works is because you feel yourself in the world around you. Spinning gives you multiple impressions that you really are in the world you believe you are. You can feel the air, you can see different angles of the world quickly and you can feel yourself change position in the world. This brings dreams back when they fade. Other techniques work better though....it all depends on the person dreaming! Any technique which makes you "feel" and gives you proof that you are a part of the complex world around you will work. Spinning, jumping and touching the ground, clapping your hands as you spin and also rubbing your hands together are good ones. Don't just rub your hands together...rub them on the wall or floor and FEEL the textures!

I had some other things to talk about when you are lucid but I'm tired now and can't be bothered.

OK I hope this was of some use to someone out there! This whole document took me just less than an hour to write and it wasn't planned or anything! I just wrote it all now! I am planning on making a website where I can describe the method in the most detailed way possible except that will take planning and time. So until then I hope this quick document is enough information and I hope I didn't just waste an hour for nothing!

Thanks for reading (if you did). I hope you do actually read it! (If you didn't).

Pedro.

Or Peter Harrison if anyone cares!

This is Pedro's timeline from hearing about lucid dreaming to the present.

Ok someone asked me to do this so don't blame me! Basically they want to see when I had turning pooints in my LDing and how long everything took as an example or something...so here goes!

Umm...one problem...when the hell did I start lol... (Consults dream diary)...

SEBTEMBER:

ACCIDENTALLY discover a link to www.ld4all.com when looking at another site. I clicked on the link by mistake and it seems fate brought me somewhere amazing! This site has inspired me! I know its ONLY a website but my life wouldn't be the same without visiting here! Anyway, I didn't look at the forum but I read EVERYTHING on the main pages and memorized it all! Got obsessed and started telling all my friends! Not many listened...

I then found other adresses so I could learn more and found my first detailed descriptions of "methods" to induce LDing...studied them constantly.

OCTOBER:

I purchased LaBerge's book (second edition) and this became my bible! Before I bought it though I did have my first success in having a low-level lucid dream. For the next month I had many LD's except they were all of a low-level of lucidity. I discovered the almighty FORUM! lol. Here I discovered that people suggest doing RC's every hour or 30 mins.....that explained why I had so many LD's (even if they were low-level)! I had been doing RC's roughly every 2 minutes!!! I realized that for about a month I had actually been doing a version of lucid living! Scary. Anyway, this brought many LD's on random dates but I still wasn't getting the breakthrough HIGH-LUCIDITY dreams. I was starting to get dissapointed with LDing as it wasn't as amazing or as vivid as people made out...

Towards the end of this month two amazing things happened to me! This is only after 2 months of hearing of LD's as well! Firstly, I had my first super high lucidity dream which was one of the most amazing experiences of my life! This encouraged me to keep going and practice new things. Secondly, I discovered that I could visually incubate a dream scene. This came to me after trying it at a party when I fell asleep completely drunk! I did not become lucid but my dream started the exact way I wanted it to... I thought this COULD be an accident but I thought I'd try the following night and BOOM! IT WORKED!!! Woohoo!

November (i think):

I was on the forum when I mentioned to Odd2k that I could incubate the dream of my choice and he said wow you can use this to get lucid! Make your DC's tell you to be lucid. This was not as easy as it sounds. I then sat for several days and figured out the most perfect method for me to achieve lucidity based on my other experiences and using dream incubation as the take off! My first night gave me several highly-lucid dreams! And the next night... and the next night... And the next!

I improved it a bit towards the end of the month but kept practicing. I had more time to think about what to do in my dreams instead of trying to have them in the first place!

DECEMBER:

Beyond perfect...if I want I can have 4 LD's in a night. I usually have 2.

THE MAIN TURNING POINTS FOR ME WERE:

LD4all LaBerge's book Odd2k's advice Realizing that most people who do little RC's don't get many dreams and the fact that I did RC's every couple of minutes and got loads! The couple of days were I planned my method.

Uh thats about it...Some things happened between 2 months so I'll just leave it as it is though coz no1 cares lol.

Peace.

Gordon:

Thanks for sharing Pedro's posts with us. His technique seems more like a modified MILD than something actually different, but his descriptions are interesting, and his phenomenal levels of mental discipline (as would be required to achieve those results so quickly) are humbling. This is indeed potentially inspiring stuff!

But honestly, if he has that kind of a handle on visualization and concentration, any technique would work for him. Also, I could tell very early in his post that he read Stephen's book very carefully. Do you think there could be a chance that his posts might be laced, perhaps accidentally, with more wishful thinking than experience? The only other thing I could think is that he is one of those rare (or possibly impossible) cases of a natural lucid dreamer, and all he really did was notice and codify what's been happening all along.

So, between his apparent youth, amazing results, and the incredible amount of mind power necessary to achieve them, I do find myself in agreement with Daniel ' there is much here to question.

Daniel:

Thank you for your thoughtful and gutsy post. That's just the sort of careful dissent that maintains the excellent quality of this Forum. And you saved me some typing time!

Best of dreams,

Peter

I would be very interesting to get him into a dream lab! While his results are very out of the ordinary, that is why for me it's too tempting to pass up without giving it a serious try.

This is a new field and it would be a mistake to close our minds too soon to the possibility that there are far more effective methods than those we've found. Being overly gullible or skeptical both result in loss.

I'll let you know how this works for me, of course.

Daniel,

Its possible that you could be right about Pedro (Peter Harrison), but I found your post downright irresponsible, both in terms of social etiquette and the logical integrity of your analysis.

You didn't know that he was preparing to join TLI and would be reading what you wrote about him when you publicly described him as a fraud. However, the contents here are publicly avaliable and we know that they can be seen by anyone. Do we not have the same courtesy for individuals outside the forum as we do those inside the forum? The key word here is individual, this guy is not a publicity seeking guest on a TV show who is asking the Amazing Randi to challenge him. He is a member of an internet forum, just like us.

To make a statement that someone is a fraud requires some pretty strong evidence and you better present it logically and with a minimum of extraneous rhetoric. I believe that to make an accusation of fraud without good evidence is improper socially.

Unless you would like me to go into detail concerning the logic and rhetoric you employed in your analysis/case against him, I'll leave it to you to figure out why I found it less than adequate and appropriate for the context in which it was used.

Gordon

Hello Everyone, WOW!, I thought my post was a little controversial but Gordon i am quite shocked by your statements. As I repeated time and again in my post, I am not looking in ANYWAY to upset anyone.

If Pedro/Peter has read my posts i am sure he would as a potentially very clear minded individual - realize that it would be crazy to accept something just because it is written on a forum. Especially when the claims made are potentially damaging IF incorrect to the whole field of lucid dreaming - not everyone is willing to trawl the net looking for balanced opinions and some may draw false impressions of the ease of lucidity from such statements. Why would i not comment honestly and skeptically on such phenomenal claims? Surely skepticism is a important function for critical thinkers? Lest we want to accept all statements in the way that nonlucid dreamers accept dreams to be reality.

Gordon, It is ever so easy to misinterpret the tone of text based communication, and i do feel this is a classic case of this.

I do not feel that i have in any way been irresponsible or lacking in social ettiquette - I may have been blunt and a little bold but honestly, how is it wrong to question statements that, if true, would change the face of a subject i have held dear to my heart for the majority of my life?

If you reread my post I think you will find that perhaps you are overreacting - AND most importantly:At no point did i call anyone a fraud. I merely stated my personal opinion that I find it highly unlikely that anyone can have 77 lucid dreams in one month - or 4 a night for that matter - This being my opinion i find it very hard considering the nature and anonymity of web forums to belive that the temptation to EXAGGERATE (not lie) ones success may be a little tempting, especially in light of so much positive feedback to these statements. I was expressing my own personal opinion on a few of Pedros statements (not Pedro himself) based on the limited information available from the ld4all forum - I repeat: not making a statement about Pedro/Peters character - as i have never met the chap.

Peter Harrison (aka Pedro) If you have read my post and found it to be offensive i apologize profoundly - honestly and with upmost regret. It is never my intention to upset a fellow human being.

What i will say to both Gordon and Pedro is that i never post anything that i would not be comfortable discussing in person with that individual. I am sure if Pedro/PeterHs is genuine in his statements (and like i have said before - i would love for this to be the case, how utterly wonderful would this be for us all!) then i would hope he will have no problems with my (in that case) mistaken opinions - it is after all a most unusual case that by its very rarity opens itself to question.

I do however regret using age as a yardstick for exaggeration (i cannot justify this claim) - like i said in my original post, i am drawing on experience from memories of myself and my peers at this age and nothing else. So it is a VERY subjective statement.

As for the flaws in my case (case?) i would happily accept any constructive criticism - we are all a little blind in our opinions at times, and it would be good to have the balance of a differing opinion. Also i would like very much to know how the 'nasal reality test' is justified by research and or logic.

Pedro, If i haven't put you off this forum ;) (Trust me I'm not as bad as all that!) then may i be the first to wish you a warm and happy welcome. You may have guessed i am a bit of a skeptic - it comes from working as a professional illusionist, it sort of opens your eyes to how easy it is to fool and be fooled - quite shocking, i recommend research into the techniques of magicians and illusionists as a great addition to lucid dream enquiry - It like lucidity is all about developing a critical mind and awareness of yourself and your perceptions. Also Pedro, despite my skepticism towards some of your claims (all i really need is evidence to back this up, i am not making a judgment on yourself only on how we should accept such claims without evidence) , i do from your many other posts think you have a wonderful attitude to the powerful and amazing nature of lucid dreaming - don't let my opinion change that!.

If i am wrong though, and you do have such shockingly regular LDs, please don't overdo it, there has been no definitive research into how such feverishly regular lucid dreaming can effect our wellbeing - As the old saying goes "everything in moderation." There is no point risking potential negative side effects. I would recommend if you can, offering your services to a sleep laboratory, this way you can prove your claims and help us all move a step nearer to 100%concrete lucidity induction (not to mention you will be in the hands of professionals who can keep an eye on how this tremendous ability to lucid dream is affecting you.)

Anyhow, Sorry if i have offended ANYONE - non was ever intended, I do not however apologize for my opinions - we are all entitled to them. Love to you all, Daniel.

Hello all

Having read the above postings, I would like to point out that, at the end of the day, there are maybe 1600 registered users of this forum, and 6 billion people in the world. By logic, there are probably more ways of inducing lucid dreams than there are songs in the world. It's all down to the individual.

I started out using the NovaDreamer, and found it OK, but not worth the price being asked, so I sent it back. Did I give up trying to lucid dream? Nope - I just kept going, trying, testing, until Gordon Wilson formulated his automization method, and it made sense to me. Therefore, I tried it, adapted it, and am now having a Lucid Dream every 3 - 4 nights or so. My only problem now is prolonging them.

The point I'm trying to make is that each and every one of us probably, somewhere in our minds, has the perfect, 100% successful method for both inducing and controlling Lucid Dreams. The tricky part is finding the one that works for us as individuals. The more options and choice we have, the better. This Pedro guy might have stumbled upon his own personal Golden Nugget of Lucid Dreaming. What I noticed was that, despite any reservations, his method overall was a logical and intelligently devised method - it could indeed work. It's just another way of teaching the human brain/mind to test and analyse reality whilst in the dream state, and thus achieve lucidity.

I applaud Daniel's courage in writing what he felt, but also Pedro's in depth description and sharing of his technique, and Gordon's stoic defence of that technique. Point is, we're all on the same side here, and that's what makes this forum so much better than others I've perused over the last couple of months. This, in fact, is the only one that I post on. We all have difficulties of our own when it comes to LD'ing, because it's not easy.

If anyone out there has yet to find their own right way to LD, Pedro's technique's gotta be worth a shot.

Dean

Hello All,

I'll give my two cents worth. Putting aside the controversy over whether the success rate is exaggerated or not, Pedro has certainly come up with an interesting and plausible method.

Remember a while back when I wrote about the physics of how the human senses work. The first thing I noticed in Pedro's post was that he has an awareness of this. Most people just can't see the subjectivity associated with their own senses, even though we're presented with this fact every second of everyday. To me, this shows a little insight.

Next consider his reality checks. Closing one eye and looking at your nose may or may not work for everyone but plugging your nose and trying to breathe is really quite clever. I can't imagine a situation where this wouldn't work (OK unless somebody's suffocating you while you sleep).

Next let's look at the dream that he has designed. I see that contains three interesting elements.

First, it's simple. Simple is always better than complex in my opinion, especially when it comes to visualization. The room is empty with nothing to distract your focus.

Second, he incubates the idea of becoming lucid over and over again in the "practice" dream itself as opposed to during the day while fully awake. Most of my reality checks are done during the waking hours and I can tell you first hand that MILD is not working that great for me.

The third point is very subtle but I think very important. The designed dream has a certain level of excitement built into it. Certainly, having two friends run up to you, egging you on to do a reality check stirs a lot more emotion than looking at a digital display reading "you're dreaming, do a RC".

It is also interesting to note how much conversation has been generated around a guy who isn't even a member here. I do hope he joins so, if nothing else, he can respond to all this talk about him.

Thomas

Gordon/Daniel:

Well, that was an interesting exchange! And well executed by both of you, I must say, given the touchy subject matter.

But I wonder if we can convert it into a conversation about what is being discussed between the lines, at least from my point of view? Is it the veracity of Pedro's skills or results being discussed, or could it be the positions we choose to take upon reading them?

Lucid dreaming is all about belief. To succeed, you must have deep faith in yourself, your memory, your technique, and in the existence of lucid dreams. The belief that a lucid dream can be experienced may be critical toward it happening (indeed, I feel that many of these machines, methods, and diets we use to bring about lucid dreaming represent a placebo effect funded by the dreamer's faith in their efficacy). It is also about skepticism. What, after all, is a reality check but a refusal to believe that the current moment is real? Finally, it is about questioning the very definitions of dreaming and consciousness that have been handed to us by knowledgeable folks.

A close relative of faith is hope. When you drop the two in the same mental pot, and stir in a dollop of desire, the results can be vigorous, but also potentially confusing. I am mildly convinced that many dreamers concentrate so deeply on having a lucid dream that their minds oblige by giving them normal dreams in which they think they are lucid. Now, dreams like this are fairly easy to spot by a careful observer, but a faithful dreamer or hopeful observer also can take them as the real thing. How one responds to the telling of a non-lucid dream that "sure seemed like an LD when I woke up!' is based completely on his own desire for the dreamer's (and his own) success, or upon his desire to carefully weed out the truth. And this mix of faith and hope drives both desires.

(Then there's charity ' in this politically correct world we live in, many sites have allowed intelligent discourse to devolve into an exchange of pleasantries and mutual admiration, with the quality of everyone's feelings being the primary concern, held even above truth. Indeed, we have reached the point where it is okay to say that the truth is relative, just so everyone can be right. Well, it's not. Truth is truth, and we need informed discourse swelling with as much faith, hope, and skepticism as is humanly possible, or else we'll never get to it. Instead, we'll become charitably mired in mutual admiration and belief in statements purely because they were stated.)

Maybe a thoughtful discussion about how we respond to posts like Pedro's, with all the logical arguments Gordon requests, would get us closer to the truth about lucid dreaming, and the most effective methods of achieving them. We might never resolve the truth behind Pedro's claims (only he and a dream lab could do that), but we might figure out a little more about our own levels of belief and skepticism. And that, in turn, will make it that much easier to induce lucid dreams.

Best of dreams,

Peter

Thanks Daniel,

I was quite angry at what you said but never doubted your sincerity or intentions. I always learn from your posts and hope you are as interested in looking at what positive there may be in the VILD method. : )

Gordon

Dear Daniel and Gordon,

Thank you both for an excellent example of waking lucidity from which we all may learn. As Stephen is fond of saying, "Don't get mad, get lucid!" And that's just what I see has happened here. Well done, dreamers!

In moderating this exploratory discussion site, we, who have the unenviable task of occasionally donning the mod caps, rarely encounter a message posted that snags our "tone?" antennae. But when that does happen, it's always interesting to see what develops. An opportunity is presented and choices are made. Of course, it's always easier when one is not a direct participant to observe with an impartial eye the subsequent unfolding. Again, I am delighted to see a clear and respectful exchange has been the choice made here.

One further note: Those who wish to understand more about breathing in dreaming, I refer you the scientific research cited in "Lucid dreaming: Evidence that REM sleep can support unimpaired cognitive function and a methodology for studying the psychophysiology of dreaming" by Stephen LaBerge at: http://lucidity.com/slbbs/index.html

Onward with Clarity and Light! Keelin

Keelin, thanks for the link. I found the paper very interesting. So it seems that in order to prove you dreaming by holding your nose and trying to breathe you must do two things:

1. Actually try to breathe (i.e. don't hold your breath).
2. Have the expectation of being able to breathe in that situation.

Thanks again for the link.

Thomas

It's great when a discussion really gets going!

I'm not sure if there is really much more i can add to the subject!!!. So many good points!

I look forward to hearing the results people achieve with this technique. I am currently 'trying it on for size' myself. Will keep you all posted with my results.

Thankyou Gordon for bringing this technique to the forum. Its great how we all balance each other out - Belonging to a community such as this really allows us to come together, discuss and become something bigger and wiser as a whole.

By the way you may be interested in another new technique i've come up with: here's a link: http://www.novadreamer.com/discus/messages/441/2024.html?1077888093

Love and sweet dreams.

Daniel

Regarding the reality checks, Pedro/Peter mentioned that he chose those reality checks, which he got from someone else, because they didn't require any props and could always be done easily without needing to conjure up anything to read or do anything difficult. He always does both of them to double check.

I did a keyword search on the LD4All forum using the words "reality check', and "nose'. Out of the posts that returned, most of them were commenting on how well these reality checks worked. I found around fifty individual reviews of these checks. The consensus was that the "one-eyed nose check" was mostly unreliable, unless you are already pretty confident that it is a dream. The "nose-grabby check" was almost always reliable for most people.

It's possible that visualizing the same scene over and over imagining that the "one-eyed nose check" is testing positive could be why it works better for Pedro/Peter.

Incubating the same simple dream scene that contains a reality check and never changing the content just sounds so intuitively plausible that I'd try it even without someone endorsing it.

I'm looking forward to asking him more about why he made the decisions he did when designing this method.

Gordon

Not been having a great deal of luck with this one yet, still early days though. 1 lucid dream so far this week but this was a WILD induced by another technique.

It's interesting that this method seems to have such a profound resonance with you Gordon. I guess this could perhaps be your minds way of alerting you to the fact that this method suits your own psychology - maybe anyhow. Are you a very visual type?

Maybe it is worth considering how our own personal minds and memories work before choosing the incubation scene. I find auditory information easier to store and create than visual - so i would imagine that using a scene with a high auditory content would be more effective for my own psychology. Of course this would no longer be a VILD but an AILD

As for the 'one eye closed nose' method for reality testing. I attempted this in my last lucid dream an came up with a perfectly simulated dream nose. I think what has happened is that somewhere on the web someone has not quite understood the difference between a reality test and a dream sign - it is quite an easy one to get confused. I am certain that the dream-eye-nose concept is a dreamsign and not a reality test.

There seems to be quite a few of these mistaken dreamsigns circulating the net masquerading as reality tests. It would be easy for someone to read one of these methods, expect this to be correct information - and then due to this expectation the dreamer discovers that indeed the expected does occur in the dream. However the apparent reality test is not stable and caused only by expectation (Similar to LaBerge's experience with the supposed 'not being able to say your name in a dream') Whilst a 'true' reality test should always be consistent whatever your expectation.

There is a little overlap between dreamsigns and reality tests but i think the distinction is important. For instance some Reality Tests are simply a case of inducing dream signs - flying for example - but are not true reality tests as they are inconsistent and may not always provide the same results.

This may explain Pedros mistake, he most likely picked this up somewhere on the net and quite rightly expected it to be correct information. His expectations no doubt helped 'make this true.'

I've had to type all this up in a bit of a hurry and have most likely made a few mistakes. Sorry if i have.

Sweet dreams to you all,

Daniel

The Elimination Method of Fine Tuning Lucidity Induction Techniques

Once a method has proven to be adequately effective, certain approaches to fine tuning its effectiveness become possible. Assume that you have begun using a method, and have achieved some degree of success with it, but although doing it exactly as more successful people have done, it fails to provide the technique's potential. I'll use VILD as an example, though this could be applied to most other methods. You'd want to be sure that you have actually reached a plateau in your results.

1. Establish your personal rate of lucidity resulting from using the method. The results would not be useful if your rate fluctuates too much, unless you were willing to spend quite a lot of time on each step of the elimination. Example results: VILD 20 attempts/ 15 lucid dreams. 75%

2. Break down the method into elements that contribute to its success. To do this completely deconstruct it into its basic elements and then decide which of those elements are likely to be most important. Example results: Friends vs. Strangers, Excitement vs. Calm, Stillness vs. Moving, Nose RC vs. Digital Clock, Minimal Dialog vs. Extended Dialog, etc.

3. Eliminate one element from the method or exchange it with some other element and continue to use the method, recording your rate of success. Example results: Eliminate the excitement element during the interaction between Peter and his friends and replace it with calmness. VILD replacing excitement with calmness during the visualization, 20 attempts/ 9 lucid dreams. 45%

4. Replace the first element that was eliminated, eliminate a different element and continue to use the method, recording your rate of success. Example results: Some kind of physical movement replaces remaining still within the visualization. VILD replacing stillness with physical movement, 20 attempts/ 19 lucid dreams. 95%

5. Continue eliminating and replacing elements, one at a time, until you have tested all of the elements that you wish to test.

Once each desired element has been tested, the results would look something like this: VILD Elimination Test No modifications 20 attempts/ 15 lucid dreams 75% -Friends +Strangers 20 attempts / 10 lucid dreams 50% -Excitement +Calmness 20 attempts / 9 lucid dreams 45% -Nose RC +Digital Clock 20 attempts / 17 lucid dreams 85% -Stillness +Movement 20 attempts / 19 lucid dreams 95% -Min. Dialog +Ext. Dialog 20 attempts / 5 lucid dreams 25%

From these (completely manufactured results), you could decide which elements were most important for you and what changes you might want to make to improve the method. In this case, you'd probably add some kind of movement to our routine and change the Nose RC to the Digital Clock permanently.

It would be necessary to adjust the results to reflect the rate reduction due only to changes taking place in the method; but overall, this should allow individuals to personalize methods and possibly get better results.

Daniel,

I'm still working on the visualization, which I think I've nearly gotten down to the degree to that I can convince my groggy, half-asleep brain to carry it out over and over.

I am not necessarily a visual person--whenever I take those tests, I come out with scores that are all about equal. I do however experience hypnagogic imagery accompanied by clear audio nearly every night. (Hearing things or 'seeing' what my mind apparently imagines will happen in the book I'm reading is normally the cue that its time to turn the light off and stop reading.) So, like you say, I certainly may be so attracted to this because I somehow see it as 'right' for me.

I'm also a bit of a control freak with obsessive tendencies. : ) MILD makes me feel a bit helpless knowing that several hours of unconscious sleep are between me and my lucid dream, so WILD has always been attractive.

Gordon

Sorry for an off-topic" But it's the first time I've read something about the difference between reality test and dream signs, and I'm not sure I will find the definition. So, what's the difference? Will the statement "If X, then I am dreaming" mean, that X is a dream sign, and the statement "If I am dreaming, then X" ' that X is a reality test? If so, what else reality tests could be mentioned, besides the nose plug one? Because everything else I remember (having six fingers, being able to stick a finger through a wall, changing clocks) are only dream signs, aren't they? Even reading a text twice ' if it is a long text, it's sometimes very difficult to find anything strange in it.

Dear Ileana,

You'll find both dream signs and reality testing clearly defined in TLI's FAQ at: http://lucidity.com/LucidDreamingFAQ2.html

May you know just what to do when the odd thing occurs! Keelin

I've become interested in Gordon's VILD technique again, as it occurs to me that we should be able to incubate our way to lucidity. So, instead of identifying and practicing with a bunch of dreamsigns and then hoping one of them pops up and that we recognize it, why not learn to have a specific dream experience with a great DS embedded in it consistently? Or, if not a dreamsign per se, a dream context that is conducive to becoming lucid, in my case peace and quiet in a dream?

Has anyone else tried this out?

Paul

I'd love to take credit for this elegant idea, but I was just the one who made lots of noise about it. : )

I am creating a full and complete guide to my VILD technique at the moment. I shall put a link up here when it is done if anyone is interested. My posts on www.ld4all.com may provide you with answers to any questions in the meantime.

Pedro

Pedro

I look forward to it..

Adam