Hello there lads... I have a question to you who have experienced lucid dreaming quite alot. How real does it feel? When I have read in the F.A.Q. in www.lucidity.com, it is written that many people think they wake up but they are just dreaming that they wake up.

If you are concious in a dream... How real does it feel? In comparement to the real world, or is lucid dreaming just like dreaming but you are able to control some parts of it?

Peter,

Ordinary dreams "feel" very real, which is why we mistakenly believe that we are awake. You may realize on awakening that it was just a dream, and therefore not real, but while you're dreaming you don't know this unless you become lucid. At that point you KNOW while in the dream that it is not real.

Now, if you're asking about perception of the dream world, your emotions, and so forth in a lucid dream, they can seem even more intense, more awesome, more "real" than waking life, at least for me.

Hope that helps.

Paul

Yes.. That pretty much covers what I was asking =) Thankyou for your help.

Ok It is the general belief that a lucid dream is one where the dreamer knows he is dreaming..BUT...I cant help feeling its posable to experiance a lucid quality dream without knowing one is dreaming? mabey one type should be called a lucid dream with [reality based awareness] The other type is LD without reality based awareness? I just [recalled] a dream at three thirty yesterday morning..It was a series of slowly changing dream scenes but near the end it was OH SO REAL!! I was riding a bike along this dirt path and I noticed I was getting into a little water Mabey a couple of inches at first but as I kept riding the water was getting slowly deeper but since Im a super bicycle rider I did not care.. I kept going then the water was almost six inches deep I kept on riding the bycicle without a care! I then went another 50 feet and and without warning {SPLASH!!}Me and the bicycle went underwarer at least15 feet or more ! I was in a swamp surounded by cattails and lillypads!! I remember grabing for the closest cat tails trying to pull myself towards shalower water at the same time holding on to my bike with my feet..This part of the dream was SUPER VIVID and no memory of an event in wakeing reality could surpass it in quality and vividness! Any time I dream of being in water or raindrops falling its always super real. I may be wrong but I feel that I am sometimes involved in or am observing a lucid quality or better dream without knowing its a dream?? Is this posable?? Mabey my dream scenes turn lucid at the end? If a high level lucid dream could get more real than this one...am I in for a suprise!! Coments welcome..Tom

Yes,

Sometimes while you are low-level lucid or no lucid at all, you can experience a lucid quality or better DETAILED dream. The level of details doesn't have anything to do with lucidity. From my experience there are much more low level lucid (or no lucid at all) dreams which easily surpass lucid dreams in their quality and vividness.

Tom:

Nenad is correct. By definition, a lucid dream MUST include awareness. A dreamer needs to be aware that he is dreaming in order for the dream to be termed lucid. Vividness and lucidity do not need to go together; you can have an extremely vivid dream that is not lucid, just as you can have an extremely vague dream that is lucid.

If you are not aware that you are dreaming, then your dream is not lucid.

Best of dreams,

Peter

Hi Nenad and Peter..I read your posts..Ok then there must be a superior experiance in a lucid dream or otherwise.. why try to learn lucidity?If a normal dream can be just as vivid or better.. What is the advantage of learning lucidity in your opinion? Is it because your memory is stronger because you observed the lucid dream in a more concious way? Like most I am a dream factory every night.. I recall two or three dreams almost every night..AsI lay there I wake and remember my last dream and speak it in to my recorder.. As I speak the dream I see mental pictures in my head.. And in that way I can re observe the part of the dream I remembered.. Recalling dreams sometimes makes me feel like I am still in the dream sometimes at three in the morning..In a recent dream just last night I was in a store looking at a rack full of clothing and a strange woman apeared behind me and wispered [do you need a friend] I turned around startled at where she came from? I did not place her there! She looked a little bit creepy like an old gypsy lady with a gold capped tooth..I then woke up with a strong feeling of still being in the dream..I am trying hard to learn awareness in dreams and Ive recalled many dreams where I had been critical of some things and asked AM I DREAMING? then started to become lucid but woke up..Im going to try the [sound] aproach with a cd and a pillow speaker like paul is having recent sucess with.. So what do you think is the superior advantage of being lucidly aware as the dream unfolds as compared to a regular high level vivid dream?? any opinions? Thanks..Tom..

Tom:

The "superior advantage" IS conscious awareness.

To be able to consciously navigate, manipulate, or even simply observe gives you a power over your dreaming realm that does not exist in normal dreams. Normal dreams can certainly be more vivid than LD's, but in a normal dream you are just a dream character in the dream, and can only appreciate that vividness after you awaken. What fun is that? It seems much more interesting to me to be able to lucidly explore a dream while it is happening, with the fringe benefit being that the memory of that dream becomes a "conscious" memory (potentially more easy to retain) with lucidity.

Lucid dreaming can be a source of enormous fun, because you are consciously experiencing things, like flying, that cannot happen in waking life. Sure, you can fly during non-lucids, but when that happens there is nothing strange about it, so the excitement is diminished. Plus, when you are not lucid, you cannot control the direction of your flight.

An accomplished lucid dreamer can also use lucid dreaming to learn more about himself, perhaps by conjuring dream characters willing to discuss waking life problems, or by consciously "going with the flow" of a dream to see where his own unconscious wants to take him. She even may use lucid dreaming to go to a place of perfect solitude just to sit and think.

And, of course, an accomplished lucid dreamer can make vivid dreams a goal, and work toward nurturing dreams to be as vivid as he can imagine.

The practice of lucid dreaming promises unlimited creativity and exploration, with a unique tool for personal exploration thrown in as a kicker. Yes, greater vividness can be wrought during a lucid dream, but so can many, many other things ' all because the dreamer is aware that he is dreaming. You might have more vivid normal dreams for quite some time, maybe even forever, but the personal value of being consciously aware during a dream will tend to outweigh the picture quality of non-lucids.

So, yes, normal dreams might occasionally be more vivid, but lucid dreams can be, simply, more.

Best of dreams,

Peter

Peter..Thanks for your very detailed answer..Are you saying that most lucid dreams are [not] as vivid as normal dreams unless you are an advanced lucid dreamer??I agree concious awareness is superior to the other kind of awareness you have in normal dreams..But that other kind of awareness is a little misterious... at least in the way it works isnt it? My goal in dreaming is surely lucidity.. But when I wake at night and recall dreams... [depending on how awake I am] I am some what concious when I recall them arent I ?? And as I recall the dream I can see the dream in vivid mental pictures..I must admit dream recall is quite interesting and fun.. And If one could develope a super acurate form of dream recall all the more better! I have had some lucid dreams over the last year..Most have been short and lately some of my normal dreams have turned lucid towards the end of the dream..All we can do is keep trying.. Thanks for your answer.. Tom..,

Hi Dreamers,

For all the reasons Peter's mentioned above, I agree that recognition of the potentials offered by cognizance of the dream state itself is the advantage within lucid dreaming, but there is also a benefit beyond that for many of us who make the effort to learn lucidity in its broader sense. For that same skill of reflective consciousness proves useful in waking life as well. And while personal exploration within the dream may indeed be fruitful, there's at least an equal, if not greater, thrill to going lucid in the midst of a moment in waking life that one might call "nightmarish" (be that a situation that is frustrating, confrontational, or otherwise rife with negative emotion). The same extraordinary inner "aha!" and the light skip in heartbeat is something not to be missed!

Wishing everyone many moments of aha! in both realms, Keelin

Tom:

I'm saying that lucid dreams are just as vivid as the normal dream from which they came... Or they're not. What this means is that the basic quality of a dream is not a foundation for lucidity. With practice, you can certainly use lucidity to enhance the quality of a dream, but lucidity certainly does not guarantee more vivid dreams.

...What lucidity can guarantee is a greater personal appreciation of a vivid dream.

Peter

Keelin:

So true! I always do manage to leave that part out, don't I?

Aha! I thought, and my heart skipped a beat. Peter's left room for me to add this comment! ;)

HI, everyone. Isn't it possible that all dreams are of equal vividness, it's only how one remembers them that makes one seem more vivid than another, especially how awake one becomes during or after a dream, and precisely when one awakens relative to the dream's occurence. Just a thought...

Paul

Hi, Paul.

I don't think the vividness of dreams is a function or memory. The reason I say this is I often find myself, WHILE in a lucid dream, pondering and critiquing the vividness of the dream. I recall being absolutely dumbfounded at the clarity and intensity of some dreams while still in them. Conversely, I remember reflecting about the poor visual quality of some lucid dreams and trying to manipulate them to increase brightness.

The memory of these impressions and reflections "from within" tells me that the sensory quality of lucid dreams does vary. I was a bit worried about this until I read an article (somewhere in this site) where S. Laberge describes this as normal. The reason I was worried is that I understood visual quality to be a function of lucidity. I no longer think that's the case.

While extremely vivid lucid dreams are very exciting, I also appreciate the paler ones enormously. And I would always choose a "faded" LD over the most fantastic technicolor NLD!

Maria, I don't notice a direct connection between vividness of a dream and lucidity, except that in nonlucid dreams I don't pay attention to vividness. I think that requires lucidity, obviously. Only if you know it's a dream are you likely to pass judgment on its quality. So a lucid dream may seem more vivid because you're paying attention to vividness and bring the memory of that judgment into waking awareness. Otherwise, many of my nonLDs seem extremely vivid (by recollection), while many LDs seem dim, and are occasionally totally gray. I can't recall a nonLD ever being gray.

Let's not sell nonlucid dreaming short. I have had many amazing nonLDs that I wouldn't trade for any LD. That may seem strange, but the fact is that when I become lucid my dreams often settle down dramatically. Bizarre characters and situations either dissolve or quickly resolve, and I am left standing there with a blank slate. I become a thinking ego again, in control. Although I can go and do what I like, the things I think of doing aren't necessarily as stimulating as the unexpected events of my nonlucid dreams. My regular life is not that exciting, and so my LDs tend to be the same.

People say that you can deal with fearful dream situations using lucidity. Fine. Only, I like my fearful dream situations. It's like watching a scary movie, or like riding a roller coaster. The scare is what makes the experience interesting. I've also had nonLD dream sex that blows away any experience I've had lucid. In LDs I'm always worried about waking up, sort of a new kind of performance anxiety.

I suspect my LD frequency and my ability to become lucid are hampered by the fact that I do enjoy all my nonlucid dreams as much. So why do I bother with lucidity? That's a very good question...

Sweet dreams. Happy new year, all. Paul

Paul.. do you think it is posable to become lucid while a normal dream is going on.. Observe it without disturbing it in any way.. Just watch it unfold with increased awareness? Or does sudden lucidity [always] dull it every time.. In my experiance I have become lucid for short periods as soon as this happens I would notice the dream scene suddenly change keeping its vividness Then I would wake.. Also for a human being to recall dreams every day and become lucid in dreams as well..These skills are not normal for most people unless they practice them regularly..Our minds normaly do not alow us to remember our dreams every day..The question Is why were we built this way? The true answer to this question may open the door to a better understanding of dreams of all kinds including lucid ones.. I still enjoy my dreams whether they be lucid or not.. even though lucidity is my target.. I wonder whats In dreams that is so adictive to most people? And then theres my novdreamer sitting in the cabnet gathering dust..When I first started using it It realy worked well..I expected results and thats what I got.. But now that [I think] It will just wake me up and rob me of my sleep..Thats what it does best now.. I played a cd to meditate with 30 minutes before I went to sleep last night. It was called [celtic dawn] tales of a new age..It had the sounds of rain drops and water running in a stream, Ancient music..I woke and recalled many more dreams than usual last night..Plus I experianced a strange dream state a little past three thirty in the morning where I was [conciously] watching many fast moving dream images and telling my self over and over[in my dream] that I must be aware!But I could also hear many other sounds in the back ground drownding out my words..It was a frenzy of sounds and thoughts all compeating for atention of what sounded like a mental sea of my own thoughts ..I think that trying something new like the [cd] just before sleep may have stimulated my dreaming..Any way theres that fleeting thought theory again...Where you expect something to happen then..It does!When you think It wont work then..It doesnt! Happy new year to all!And may we all conquer many dream horizons!!Tom..

Tom, I believe it is possible, and most LDers can probably do it. For myself, becoming lucid always seems to make a change in the character of the dream to something more rational, more like waking life. Not that the dream scene necessarily changes, but more like stability and predictability enters the dream. If a dream drama has been unfolding, it usually gets interrupted, or I lose interest in it. Often I just fly away from whatever was there before.

Most people I talk to don't care at all about their dreams. A good percentage will even deny that they have them. Maybe that's the natural evolution as we age. It does take effort to keep my dream life a high priority. If I stop keeping a dream journal, for instance, I quickly find that I stop recalling dreams at all. I really can't say why I care so much about dreams, although I suspect I'm looking for something I haven't been able to find awake. Then again, I've always liked strange experiences, the unexpected adventure.

You might try sleeping with earphones, listening to LD material in an endless loop. I've become lucid many times doing so. It's really weird to hear sounds come into the dream with total clarity. Sometimes it gets frustrating when I keep trying to turn off the sound in my dream by removing my dream earphones, and can't. I've had nonLDs, too, where I spent the whole dream trying to find where the hidden radio was--heehee.

Paul

Hi all.I want to explain how I experianced two diferent levels of dreams.. It seems to me that normal dreams sound and seem more at a distance and harder to remember.. when Lucid dreams seem to me much louder higher energy conscious experiances.. Two examples are..dream type one..Theres a party going on inside that house! I just live across the street and I can hear something going on even though I cant hear everything.. Dream typeTwo...I decide to investigate and knock on the front door..The door opens and I can hear everything very loudly and clearly music people laughing it all comes blasting out loud and clear! One experiance is distant and much more quiet,, The other experiance is amplafied high activity very clear and close up,, To you more experianced lucid dreamers..Is this the same diference normal and lucid dreams apear to you..?I recently experianced short but very loud and intense dream fragments and woke up..Example I was driving a car late at night and noticed that my steering wheel was locked! I franticly played with the key trying to unlock my sreering! I finaly unlocked it and woke up? That short dream fragment was realer Than life itself! When I woke up it was in my memory solidly!! Unlike a normal dream where One must try to remember bits and peices..Do lucid dreams come on that way intensly! and in fragments some times? cheers..Tom

Tom:

Though I do feel that lucid dreams are easier to remember (check the "memory" thread on this forum for those thoughts) than non-lucid dreams, I don't believe there is any correlation between vividness and lucidity. I've had many NLD's that have been just as intense, complex, and "loud" as my most powerful LD's. And, conversely, I've had plenty of vague, distant, and downright dull LD's.

Being lucid does not automatically guarantee an increase in clarity or content. It simply means that you are aware that you are dreaming.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Tom, I don't experience any difference between LDs and nonLDs in vividness, immediacy, or ability to remember, at least not any more.

In normal dreams, we experience a world we believe is real. It's powerful enough to sometimes scare the dream pants off of us, make us fall hopelessly in love, or become angry enough to murder. The experience must be pretty vivid and immediate to affect us so dramatically.

Lucid dreams can be just as moving or can be very bland, like any dream. I don't have any better memory of one versus the other.

Here's what I think may be going on in your case: In nonlucid dreams we obviously don't look around and think, "Wow, this is really a vivid dream," since we don't know we're dreaming. However, we are inclined to do so in our lucid dreams. We reflect on how real everything seems, how amazing everything looks. When we wake up, we remember not only the dream but also our amazement. That alone could make the LD seem more memorable.

Paul

Hi Tom, For me it is rather drastic between a LD and NLD. The LDs seem just like waking reality for me with total 3D interaction. Cognizant ability to change and do what I want in the environment as well. I cannot change the Dream Scape or Schema, but I can my behavior etc. Even though the NLDs are vivid, LDs are so much more intent.

In the LD where you were driving, I would have either, gone thru the roof, no pun intended, or out the window if I could not get the steering wheel to unlock. Or just open the door midstream and fly out.

Happy Dreaming, Patricia

Hi All..Because of a increase in dream quality and awareness for me reciently Its starting to efect mine and many other peoples judgments on what is.. and what isnt... [a lucid dream]and the attitude is tending to lean towards a reclasification of the dream state..I think in the future someone will have to reclasify It.. Ive had many dreams that I was not aware I was dreaming at first but when the dream got too out of hand or I was put in a corner I instantly came up with the realization that..This is a dream Im safe or Ill just wake up!Almost like I knew it all along?? Just realizing to yourself that this is a dream makes sense but there are too many other dreams that are being clasified as lucid now a days..mabey because of the consciousness they feel or other reasons known to the dreamer.. I have read that [conscious dreaming] is considered a level of lucidity..But others may disagree..I must admit that a clear sudden realization in a dream that one is dreaming is a bit of a suprise and causes a rush and near out of body sensation in me when realized.. But there must be other clasifications of other types of [LD]s.. Mabey a controled lucid dream verses a pasiv uncontroled lucid dream.. Just the realization that one is dreaming makes a dream lucid seems a little incompleat..I feel that a dream of superior quality where one experiances a CONSCIOUS AWARENESS while the dream is unfolding need not nessasarily tell himself that [[Im dreaming this is a dream]] he just feels the fact that he is dreaming and flows with the dream or controls it in some way..Yes I think that in the future someone will eventualy will have to add other types of lucid dreams to the lucidity bible.. cheers to all..Tom

I agree Tom,

I responded earlier but I MAY have forgotten to hit "confirm"

I have noticed (lately, especially) a "new" type of lucidity. Instead of the traditional "old-school lucidity" I am finding myself in several dreams where I am "conscious" during the dream, but not quite lucid...I am actively participating in real-time, as opposed to just remembering the dream afterwareds.

I think we will surely have to reclassify this type of consciousness, especially with all our successes as of late!

Keith

Guys:

At the risk of sounding "old school," keep in mind that Lucid dreaming simply means being aware that you are dreaming while you are dreaming.

This awareness can come in many levels, from a weak, almost tacit knowledge that "this is a dream," to the deepest understanding of the dreamer that he is dreaming, that his sleeping body is right where he left it, and that all of this that he is experiencing is of his own device. But it's all about awareness -- if you are not aware that you are dreaming during a dream, then you are not lucid dreaming.

Conversely, Keith, if by "conscious" you meant "aware," then you actually were lucid.

You might want to check out question 1.1 of TLI's FAQ page -- it very clearly defines lucidity.

If what you are experiencing falls outside this simple definition, then perhaps you are encountering something else -- but it's not lucid dreaming.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Keith:

Could you tell us more about what it means to actively participate in real time? Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand what you meant.

Thanks!

Peter

Hey Peter,

Maybe I can describe it better. Lately as I've been having much greater success, I have noticed that on mornings when I don't achieve the traditional "I'm dreaming!" lucidity, I am experiencing my non-lucid dreams in a more "active" state or capactity. It's just a tad hard to explain, but while before I would really just "remember" my non-lucid dreams afterwards, I now experience them in real-time. It's ALMOST as fun as lucid-dreaming, and at least the dreams are much longer and more vivid than "traditional" non-lucid dreams.

I know the definitions are shakey at best compared to the gauges we've been using for so many years, but I really do agree with Tom that we will soon have to reinvent some of our definitions.

Keith, I'm with Peter. There may be shades of lucidity, but if we don't know we're dreaming, it's not a lucid dream. It's really not for us to redefine this phenomenon to fit our own understanding or subjective experience. What we need to do is try to understand what might be accounting for these different levels of dream awareness or presence. I have had such dreams myself, and I have an idea about them.

I would ask you to check something about these experiences. You mention having them in the morning. I believe that dreams that occur right from the waking state, or close to the waking state in time, what I call wake-initiated dreams, allow us to carry into the dream some measure of waking awareness without actual lucidity. This can give us a sense of conscious awareness that makes it "feel" like an LD, although we aren't truly lucid. Since these events tend to happen to me after my first awakening in the morning, when I go back to sleep, it seems logical that this may be what's going on in your case also. I would be interested in your feedback, since I have been attempting to understand the same thing from the beginning.

Paul

Patricia, I think you have it reversed. It's the nonlucid dreams that really feel like waking reality with 3D interaction. If they didn't, we would be lucid in every dream. The lucid dreams don't feel like waking reality, because we know we are dreaming.

At least, that's what the books say.

Are you coming to dream camp?

Paul

Old School Stuff may be right in its own way..But as time goes on we start understanding our diferent types of dreams better..Im not trying to change the meaning of lucidity because to know your dreaming is a pretty cut and dried phrase.. I once became lucid to a fairly high degree and I never let the phrase [[This is a dream]] nor did I have an [[awareness that I was dreaming]] at all enter my mind..The only words I exclaimed was..IM HERE!! an uncanny awareness that IM HERE! was all I needed to know.. In this dream state I simply felt I was in a lucid relm..and I was.. That experiance was so strong Ill never forget it..And whats wrong with having diferent clasifications for diferent types of lucidity? Afterall there are diferent levels of lucid states arent there? It wouldent suprise me If there were dream states that could make lucidity look like childs play anything is possable..dream on..Tom

Tom:

First, there is nothing "wrong" with classifying different types of lucidity. I never said there was -- that is after all what levels of lucidity are: varied experience of basically the same event.

I also didn't say that there is a requirement that all lucid dreamers must say "This is a lucid dream," in order to be having one. I'm sorry if you understood me that way. If you're aware that you're dreaming, that's enough. I persoanlly almost never verbally acknowledge lucid dreams.

Of course lucid dreaming isn't the only aspect of dreaming that exists in the world of dreaming. Indeed, LD'ing is barely a lump on the landscape of dreaming in general. What it is, though, is a very easily defined event in a dream. If something new is discovered, some new experience that doesn't involve conscious awareness of a dream, then yes, as a new phenomenon it will need a new definition. But it won't be a redefinition of an existing, and very simple, experience.

Peter

Hi Paul, From my perspective LDs are more like waking reality, and more magnified than NLDs with the only difference being that, yes, I know that I am dreaming. I consider it to be much more interactive containing all sensory awareness than NLDs; due to the fact that I am cognizant of dreaming and have free will to do as I please unlike the NLD state. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

I plan on going to Dream Camp next year, wasn't able time wise to go in November.

Hope you enjoy it. It will be good for you to get away for a while.

Patricia

Patricia, I would say LDs are more like what waking reality should be--intense presence and aliveness. Unfortunately for most of us waking reality is more like a nonlucid dream. We're sleeping, and we don't know it.

I don't know if it will be good to get away. I'll settle for different.

Sorry you won't be there.

Paul

In my opinion..Wakeing reality does [[ not compare]] very much at all with [any dream state] lucid or non lucid..A dream is a dream ..wakeing reality is wakeing reality..There are qualitys I feel even in a normal dream that I doubt I could ever feel in wakeing reality.. So at least in my experiance [speaking for myself of course . I enjoy almost all of my dreams even my non lucid ones witch acount for most of them.. even they are always vivid intense and alive..And [[some non lucid dreams]] can be so beautyfull at times that it would seem a shame to spoil them with lucid awareness..So to see a dream as a reality..has a beauty of its own! But also to see a dream as a dream can derail a normal dream through aquired awareness but offer a chance to observ it in a diferent light also.. I and striveing to acheave lucidity but I also apreciate dreams in there normal forms to.. PS..unless they are nightmares..Cool Dreams..Tom