Scot,

Thanks so much! I thoroughly enjoyed listening last night, and plan on checking them out again tonite!

Keith

Hi Scott, Since I use my windows 98 computers for Internet Access I am unable to download file. Is it possible to have it written onto a CD then mail it? Also are these links audio and video? That way on the CD I can load it to my XP that I keep off the internet as that has more features and I do not want it corrupted. Also my memory for 98 computer is only at 132 mg.

Thanks for providing links! Patricia

Hello Everyone, You may already be aware of this, but apparently after contacting Radio Shack, there is a phasing out of Tape Recorders, cassettes, and I am unable to purchase an auto reverse continuous play recorder. However, my CD player has a repeat feature and I was roaming around the Monroe Institute site which had a reference to hemisyncforyou.com ------ they had Lucid Dreaming Tapes available, not in CD yet, but to be converted. These may be helpful. I called the proprietors of the site and they will try to speed up the conversion.

We could also use Stephen's CD from his Lucid Dreaming book and play that on a continuous CD player. If played all night long, the intensions very well could sink into the subconcious and create LDs with little effort.

P.S. I haven't checked it out yet, but hemisyncforyou.com apparently sells a pillow with a built in microphone which hooks into a CD player like Head Phones and Ear Buds. That could be very useful.

Happy Lucid Dreaming, Patricia

Patrica..Radio shack is not the only place to find a recorder..Any flea market in door or out door will have lots ofcheap used tape recorders of all sizes and shapes..Or try yard sales or department stores like wall mart or target should still have casette recorders digital and tape..Personaly I like a hand held casette recorder because is easy to use and I dont own or want to own a cd burner..Simplicity is best I think.Of course its your choice good luck..Tom

Patricia, with regrets I must point out that I believe you will be wasting time and money pursuing these techniques. I have used continuous all-night CD play with Stephen's program and many others, with no lasting effect on LD frequency. I have used hypnosis CDs also. I've used Monroe's programs, Mindsync, etc, with the same results. I'm sure I've spent over $1,000 on such items. I believe many of these LD induction recordings are not worth the media they're recorded on, and they are expensive! I own and have experimented with the pillow speaker idea, as well. This produced an LD once and only once, which had more to do with sound than content.

My conclusion from my own experiments is that the sleeping brain is like a brick wall when it comes to using the senses as a vehicle to penetrate through it. Even what may seem to our waking minds as likely to succeed, like really appropriate verbal cues played at just the right time, just don't seem to work. Even the NovaDreamer, which is scientifically proven an effective tool, still requires considerable waking training and a lot of talent to recognize the light cues, which are often transmuted in form.

It's not my nor anyone else's place to discourage anyone from trying to improve LD frequency by any means possible, but we can learn from each other's successes and failures. None of these techniques using auditory cues during sleep have worked for me.

Maybe Keelin can add something here, also, regarding results with TLI's DreamSpeaker.

Paul

Hey Patricia and Paul,

I've had GREAT success for 3 of the past 4 nights - 5 lucid dreams, and 3 other dreams where I "heard" myself saying, "Is this a dream?" and "This is a dream!" over and over, but just didn't make the connection.

Getting "enough" sleep has definitely helped. Last night I slept for about 6 hours, got up for 20 or 30 minutes, and went back to sleep. When I get up, I set my laptop on my nightstand next to me. Every 9 minutes media-player plays an mp3 of my own voice saying, "Is this a dream? Am I dreaming right now? This IS a dream!" ten times in a row. Tonite I"m going to experiment with a different number of times. Patricia, I think this low-budget solution has been much more effective for me. Hearing Stephen's tapes, or even the Monroe hemisync crap over and over just puts me to sleep, where I remain. Something about hearing my OWN voice is penetrating that "brick wall" with much success!

Do you use a NovaDreamer? I have a "real" one, and I also have that "RemDreamer" from Poland. Neither one is helping much these days, so I think I"m gonna take a break and do some more experimenting with the tape/wav/mp3 solution.

Please keep me posted on your progress! Keith

Hi Patricia, Paul, Tom, Keith, et al,

While I don't have any of TLI's research data at my fingertips regarding how effective auditory cues are for inducing lucidity during dreaming, I recall that while using the DreamSpeaker prototype (years ago), I found it successfully incorporated into my dreams in amusing ways. I worked with it only for a brief time, so I'm not sure what effect longer training/use would have had. As it turned out, Alan Wallace inherited my DreamSpeaker as he had tried it out at one our retreats and found the idea of a well-timed, whispered reminder during REM intriguing. Apparently, Tibetan Buddhists use a similar technique when learning to lucid dream.

The flashing light cues of the NovaDreamer worked very well for me, but then again, I had extensive training and used it for years (and still do on occasion). And while Paul has not had as much of an easy time with the external induction devices, there have been reports of people having had a lucid dream the very first time they've used the NovaDreamer. Naturally, frequency improves with training, which some may find easier than others. This is one obvious reason why it helps to have many different induction strategies.

Lucid dreams to all -- anyway you can get 'em! Keelin

I'm sure that I'm the neophyte here but I've done a bit of experimenting with audio cues and can report some success.

I agree with Paul...it works best(for me)sparingly. I become accustomed to the cues very quickly so I don't use the same cues two nights in a row and will sometimes wait 1-2 weeks before using them again. For the same reason, I also don't like to listen to cues all night long. I take frequent breaks from using cues at all.

I frequently fall asleep watching a DVD movie with headphones on and set on repeat. It plays in my ears all night sometimes if the headphones stay on. Many times, the movie will work itself into a dream. In a recent dream, a friend of mine was quoting dialogue from the movie, word for word. I was impressed that he knew the movie so well that he could do that. Of course, it was the actual soundtrack playing in my ears!

The same thing has happened with music CDs. In one dream, the band whose music I was listening to appeared in the dream performing onstage in a cafe somewhere!

I have a few "Brainwave" CDs. They didn't appear to do anything for me at first but I had some success after trying them again with a few week's break in between. I'm not sure how they should work but for me, after WBTB, I play the CD and usually hear the end of it before falling asleep. The lucid dream will come sometimes 1-2 hours after the CD has finished. This "delayed reaction" caused me to think that the CD was having no effect and that I was doing it on my own. I finally realized that I was having a lot of lucid dreams on the same morning that I used the CD...Duh!

If you have a CD burner, you can download a free, easy to use CD sound editor. You can record your own cues in your own voice on a CD, add your own edited music tracks if you want, and then use a CD clock radio or CD player with a timer to play it at the proper time.

I've had some interesting results but like Paul and Scot said, it works best when used sparingly and changed frequently.

Steve

If I may enter the fray...

Patricia:

Paul does make an excellent point. Awareness during a dream ' of self, of where your physical body really is, and of course of the fact that "this is a dream,' ' is a result of discipline, skill, preparation, and serious conscious intent. The toys, drugs, tapes, and brainwave-alignment recordings might provide a last leg-up toward lucidity, but ultimately lucid dreaming on demand comes from you.

Now don't get me wrong; the day the drug, software, or highly modified cattleprod is invented that triggers lucidity with no help from the dreamer, I'll be first in line to purchase it (after 30 years of LD'ing, I'm still that lazy!). But it hasn't happened yet.

It's fine to think of all these chemicals and paraphernalia as handy aids or supplements to your efforts. I have quite a collection myself, including a Dreamlight, DreamSpeaker, a PEST (Stephen's best invention, in my opinion), dietary supplements, and many high-end recordings. They're a lot of fun, and helpful no doubt on some level. But they're not the solution. That's because there isn't one yet, at least not one outside your own psyche. Lucidity is still up to you.

That said, Tom is correct ' there are still many sources for cassette recorders out there; and many reasons not to take the technical prophecies of a Radio Shack employee too seriously.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Keith..Glad to hear that audio cues are working super for you! I think that audio cues may work better for some than others..But at least we know [It can work!!! Are you using ear buds? Or pillow speakers? I think you will find that changing the message may have diferent efects! It may be that power of expectation again..Keep us informed..Tom

Good discussion, y'all!

What I am saying is that while any and all of these techniques have the capacity to produce a lucid dream, they are failures when it comes to making any permanent imrovement in LD frequency. In other words, as a technique to get us closer to the goal of LD at will, the auditory approach fails.

Patricia has talked about altering our subconscious mindset to increase LD frequency using auditory programming, thereby making LDs easier to have in general. This is the point I am addressing when I say I believe it's a waste of money and effort.

While I have had many lucid dreams induced by sound, listening to LD CDs and tapes while sleeping has not had any effect on my ability to have LDs at will. Nor has any of them worked more than once or twice before I accomodate. In fact, I am so accomodated that it no longer matters what I play through my earphones during sleep. My ears are always OFF, and I don't register the sounds in my dreams anymore.

Paul

I see (or hear) what you're saying; my luck has probably been just that: luck. Maybe because it's just another "new" induction method, it's working right now, but eventually I'll get accustomed or used to it, and it won't have any LASTING effects.

Keith "I hope you're wrong, but you're probably right" Gilbert

Hello Everyone! Thank you so much for your input and revelation of experience! Rather than taking the trouble of rigging up wiring under my pillow for continuous repeat suggestions, I am will continue using the self hypnotic and subliminal CDs sparingly as I have in the past. I did, however, purchase some Ear Buds while in Radio Shack as they are more comfortable then the headset when listening to content for extended periods of time.

Pleasant Dreaming To Everyone! Patricia

I was wandering around last night, reading another "can't miss, guaranteed OBE 30 minutes after you download this for $30..." site when I stumbled on some reviews of said product. One of them said, "Don't pay for this, check out this site of free stuff..."

Anyway, the free site was www.saltcube.com

And they have a modified "timer" that can be used for OBE's or ld's - it's free to download at http://www.saltcube.com/timer .

Patricia, congrats on your success last night!

Keith

Keith and all.. Mabey this auditory method wont work seven days out of the week..But Isnt that ALOT TO EXPECT THIS SOON! When I was five years old I couldent ride a bike for very long without falling..But as time went along I got better and could ride farther.. I would try the [audio cue] method once every couple of nights to prevent burn out and self discouragement..I think most of us have an underlying attitude that this good thing [wont last] so after a day or two we uncounsciously expect it to fail and it does..Dont fall in to that negitive attitude trap..If your [able to keep a positive one] Thats a plus for YOU!.. This whole dream buisness is a strange world of words and emotions memorys and expectations anything that efects our attitude in a negitive way can set up road blocks to the control we want in dreams.. and we have to be carefull not to take other peoples experiances as law for everyone because we are are not all the same..If you are having some good luck dont give up too soon you may be on to something.. Cheers...Tom

Tom, I tried all these methods with a highly positive expectation of success, with no one else's input. They seemed to work at first, but I was still ultimately disappointed. True, I may be the exception, but I think anyone thinking of laying out money for this or that technique has a right to hear another's experience. He or she also has the right to ignore it, of course.

At the time I was experimenting with sound no one was posting anything about it on the forum. Had someone done so, I might have saved myself money and frustration. And if any of these techniques were any good, we would probably have heard more about it by now.

As Peter noted above, there as yet just aren't any reliable shortcuts, nothing outside of ourselves that can take us to our goal of LD at will. However, if a certain technique works for someone, that's terrific, and I'll be first in line to give it a try. I even tried pulling my hair as Patricia does. Didn't produce lucidity.

On the other hand, if I'm considering laying out cash for something that someone has already tried and found lacking, I would certainly want to know that as well. I want to be able to make informed decisions whenever possible.

The exchange of such experience is one of the best parts of this forum. My post is not meant to discourage, merely to inform.

Paul

Paul..All I was saying is some of us [may] have the ability to conect with audio cues a little better than others..Im not sure theres evidence that enough people have even tryed this audio cue method that would give the few of us who have..A solid reason to condem the method.. You talked about how the method worked AT FIRST for you but floped out later..After reading a lot of posts over the months that story seems to be the same with many other people who have tryed MANY more methods including dream herbs as well..One must admit that our own personal attitudes DO efect the outcome of our experiments..And I always thought that a positive one was best the best attitude to have..I cant talk too much about the method because Ive been working on these methods more in my mind than actual practice.But those who are seriously trying I respect for trying and they shouldent give up too soon.. In the near future Im setting up an audio cue experiment but instead of mesages I plan to use single WORDS or SOUNDS that will substitute a harder to understand [message] for the already buisy dreaming mind to understand.. Lets face it the human mind is one tough nut to crack.. And I some times [play with the Idea] that the human mind exists seperatly from the brain..The brain controling body functons only.. I say there has got to be a REASON why many of these methods fail or poop out for some of us who have tryed to gain wakeing awareness in a dream? Lucidity seemed much easyer as a child I think.. But I can understand why most people claim the method failed after a couple days Its happened to me too but I was also takeing other peoples experiances as mine..Were not all the same..We must keep trying to find this inner art..cheers to all.Tom

Tom, 'condemn' is a pretty strong word. However, since you chose it, I will state that, yes, I feel quite comfortable condemning the idea of trying to program the mind to have consistent LDs using audio messages. It just doesn't work! I would discourage anyone from wasting time and money trying to accomplish it.

Attitude and expectation do not matter in this case (in my opinion, having tried to accomplish this in every conceivable manner), because the method is flawed to begin with. It's tempting to speculate that these messages might somehow program our subconscious minds to make lucid dreaming much easier to achieve. Before that happens, if it even can happen, I think we learn to filter out the sound. I have not found this to work (and my subconscious is every bit as well-behaved as the next guy's, I think).

Besides, becoming lucid is not a subconscious function, but a highly conscious one. For the same reason, although I am highly hypnotizable (Did I spell that right?), I haven't found hypnosis to be of any help either. I have used hypnosis programs made for me personally, containing post-hypnotic suggestions to recognize my own specific dreamsigns, even! That didn't work either.

I don't include in this 'condemnation', audio programs that attempt to create a mindset for success at lucid dreaming, such as Stephen's trance induction CD. That's an entirely different purpose.

However, again I am not saying that audio cues are useless as a method to trigger lucidity. There's a key difference here. To make this useful some kind of practice will still be required to hear and recognize audio cues in the dream state, just like practice is needed to recognize flashing lights with the NovaDreamer. Even then, the problem of accomodation to the cue so it eventually fails to enter the conscious dreaming mind is a huge hurdle.

All of this being said, I do wish only success to all oneironauts who want to try any method; I would love being proved wrong by anyone with a different experience, cause that would mean he or she's having lots of LDs-Yah!

Paul

Dear All,

These are some very long threads to follow. What it boils do to is many people, including myself, are experimenting with ways to improve lucidity. We all try different things to see what happens. It's all rather disorganized and frustrating. There doesn't seem to be much consensus except that it's difficult to have LDs "at will', but we already know that! What's needed are more clinical studies similar to Stephen's work at Stanford. There are now so many different techniques, and combinations to experiment with, that new clinical studies seem to be in order. This is what the oneironaut network should be seeking'new clinical studies to understand if any of these LDIDs, vitamin supplements, or drugs (AchEIs), alone or in combination have a higher statistical rate of success.

Perhaps a re-affirmation of the goals is also in order. What do we really want? I believe it's an improved understanding of human consciousness. One way to do that is to better understand the lucid dream state which is by all respects a higher form of conscious awareness. The scientific method is one way to improve our understanding of a phenomena. New clinical psychological studies of lucid dream induction can improve our understanding and lead to better techniques, in general, for having lucid dreams.

We must remember that the clinical lucid dreaming studies done in the past pointed statistically in certain directions. They did not expose a final solution that will work for everyone, only methods with a higher probability of success for the average human being. Those studies were done with the tools and techniques of the time, with some being invented (e.g., Dreamlight). No one can deny that solid progress was made in our scientific understanding of lucid dreaming.

I believe another round of clinical studies needs to be done. It's very likely such a study will make even more discoveries about LDs and techniques. Let's face it people this forum is entertaining but it ain't scientific. Stephen, if you're listening, what's happening with modern clinical studies of lucid dreaming?

Regards,

Scot Stride

All of the currently promoted methods of attaining lucidity fall into two general categories.

The first are those techniques designed to 1) raise our awareness of the differences between the dreaming and the awake environments, and 2) remember to excercise that discriminatory awareness when dreaming.

The second are techniques that require less discriminative ability at the start. These include 1) using chemical manipulation of the brain to hopefully make us more conscious dreamers, capable of easily transitioning into lucidity, and 2) using various cues that enter the dream and trigger lucidity because, being from the outside, they grab our attention and lead us to wonder where they come from.

Scot believes more scientific trials are needed to fully explore ways of making these methods more effective. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and scientific experiements are going on, especially with the chemical approach. Perhaps more work could be done with the external cue ideas, also. I must say, however, that I personally believe that both approaches are going to be blind alleys.

I believe we should put more effort into the first general category of learning to become lucid. I would like to see more research into making us better able to realize when we're dreaming, without having to dope ourselves up with chemicals or weigh ourselves down with masks, earphones, or any other equipment.

I have been trying to build these skills for a long time, but I find the training required not only difficult to put into practice, but also not very effective when I do. Maybe I am just not patient enough, preferring faster results. I know others have great success with them. How, I wonder, could acquiring these skills be expedited?

What continues to tickle my curiosity is dream amnesia. Why should it be that upon entering a dream we ordinarily have no memory of our waking existence from the start? We begin each dream believing we have always been there, wherever we are, that the dream is our reality. I can wake up and remember a dream, but it doesn't work the other way. I can't enter a dream and remember being awake. I wonder why this happens, and if there is some way to overcome it. If we could, lucidity would be instant and automatic.

I'd really like that looked into by dream researchers.

Paul

Paul..From your other post monday sept 26th I could tell you were not having good luck with the audio method.. I did not mean the word [condem] to sound that strong... Im sorry It sounded that way to you.. It was nothing personal.. only that I believe it still may provide a chance for some people to become lucid by inserting an [already learned] [strong dream cue] into ones dreams producing almost instant recognition..and a chance for lucidity..This is all just my theory of course.. But I have to try it.. I know you are right about practice practice practice..It always helps when one works hard.. But many of us could benefit from good [LDID] method that works..And believe me no one is trying to prove anyone wrong you have plenty of good Ideas only I think the audio method still has a chance.. cheers to all.Tom

Wow.

I step away for a couple of days and miss all the good stuff!

Scot makes an excellent point, as he has before (think anyone heard you this time? ), about needing more clinical ' aka disciplined ' and studious investigations into improving lucid dreaming frequency. It does seem as if there have been no major advancements in the field since ETWOLD was written last century; very frustrating indeed! [Stephen, if you'd like to interject a rebuttal or correction, we'd all be most delighted!] It would also indeed be wonderful if we could organize truly scientific studies on this forum; as we've seen in the past, this is a very difficult task; we're just not designed for it.

But sadly, I think Paul has a good point too, because in the end lucidity is indeed a function of consciousness, which I would guess is about the most poorly mapped territory in the entire atlas of the human condition. It also must be by far the most complex, and thus less likely to be manipulated by simple cues or drugs.

I'm sure that some carefully mixed and meted chemical substances might enable lucidity, as might sounds or, most likely, visual images. But are any of them causing lucidity? Probably not. The act of bringing waking awareness (e.g., remembering what you were doing before the dream) into a dream is simply too complex. Imagine trying to globally reprogram an IBM supercomputer simply by shouting at it or pounding on its cabinet! More likely the dream machines and drugs that "work" are assisting minds already programmed for lucidity. And, as we've all agreed on so many occasions, if you've got powerful intent and expectation, then you're consciously ready to lucid dream.

But you need that intent. Without it, you're just spending money on shiny toys and exotic drugs that will do little more than blink, make noises, or possibly keep you up all night. And lordy knows I've bought all the toys and half the pills, but still I achieved my hands down best LD's not on the nights I wired up (or got wired?), but on the nights I was ready. That mental preparedness is what it's all about ' just look at the posts in the "Your Diet and Your Dreams" thread: yes, everyone talks about drugs, teas, supplements, even menus, but at the same time they're talking about mental prep, and WBTB.

And Tom, you are correct. Kudos to anyone who discovers a practical method to unlock doors to lucidity for a consciously prepared mind. And bless them for jangling those keys on this forum ' every hint helps, even if all it does is raise a few hair follicles, or a conversation.

But those keys only serve to jimmy the locks ' you gotta push the door open all by yourself.

Best of Dreams.

Peter

Paul:

A quick question:

You said that you "can't enter a dream and remember being awake." I assume that this means that you can't remember when you're not lucid, right? And when you are lucid you can remember? Probably a stupid question, I know, but I just wanted to be clear before I started in again about memory...

Peter

p.s. not that there's anything wrong with discussing memory. It's so important and we just can't get a thoughtful thread going about it. What do you suppose is up with that?

Dear Scot and all,

Couldn't agree with you more! It would indeed be Stephen's dream come true (as well as that of the rest of us who moderate the site) to see the Forum completely re-organized and able to serve a more research-based and generally helpful purpose.

Your moderators do have a plan unfolding for revamping our beloved Forum which will hopefully allow all who visit to easily navigate the site and not miss the gems that are currently buried deep down in the archives.

As for modern clinical research, one of the goals of our current LD/Non-LD study is to find a handful of expert lucid dreamers to form a special Oneironaut Society for more extensive experiments that Stephen has in mind. What we're looking for are experienced lucid dreamers who will make a sincere commitment to follow detailed, procedural instructions and fill out reports accurately and completely. Research reports will be a key topic on the revamped site. If anyone would like to be considered as a candidate for this select group, the first step is to participate in the study -- and to complete the forms impeccably! For detailed instructions, see: http://www.lucidity.com/dreams4.html

Thank you, Scot, for once again shining the light on our goal and prompting us to work towards creating a more worthwhile Forum for all.

Brilliant dreams to all, Keelin

Peter, yes, I am talking about having no memory of our waking existence when we begin to dream nonlucidly. Clearly we have memory, because we build our dreams from memory of people, places, and things we have experienced. What we don't remember (without becoming lucid), is our waking life per se. I wonder why. It may seem like a dumb question. It's really the key LD question, though. If our brains "wake up" in dreaming sleep, why don't we "remember" that we just went to bed? In other words, why aren't we lucid from the start?

It seems to me that what becoming lucid is, essentially, is gaining access to that memory. It's not about recognizing the bizarre nature of dreams, or recognizing dreamsigns. These are just steps on the way to remembering our true state. That, I think, is the key to the whole deal. When we realize we are dreaming, we have actually "remembered" that we have another existence, a "real" one.

I have been nibbling at this idea in my own lucid dreams. Lately I enter my LDs by going to sleep in my nonlucid dreams. I believe this occurs as a kind of "day residue" effect, a recovered memory of having recently gone to sleep. It isn't lucidity itself, but somehow at a subconscious level I am remembering being awake and going to bed to try to have an LD, and then reenacting it in my dream.

At first I thought these were a kind of false LD, as you have called it. However, they are full LDs in every sense. I lie down, have a dream WILD, and proceed then as in any other LD, with full awareness.

I repeat at bedtime an affirmation that "Tonight, in my dreams" I will remember that I have just gone to bed." Maybe this is having an effect on this dream amnesia.

What do you think?

Paul

Paul:

I think you raise an excellent idea and subject that has nothing to do with tape recorders, so I'm copying it over to a new thread in the Learning Lucid Dreaming forum called, of all things, "Memory."

...I can't believe that, considering the gamut of threads on this forum, nobody to date has cared to directly discuss a subject as important as memory! Ah, me, well maybe we'll have some interesting chat about it now?

Your pesky fellow moderator, Peter