Hi, dreamers!

Has anyone heard of or tried the DreamQ-V device? It straps on the wrist or anywhere else, monitors pulse, and vibrates when pulse increases as a sign of REM. Highly adjustable programs, apparently. Sounds interesting, and only $210.

Paul

Yes. I just googled it online. It sounds like it could be pretty good to me.The only thing that vibrations could cause you to have more violent awakenings such as dreams of earthquakes. There was a device that Dr. Laberge had before that caused vibration, but they tried a different method after people said to have violent awakenings. Then later they came up with the Nova dreamer.

I'd be more concerned about false signals during nonREM sleep waking me up. Heart rate will also increase whenever you roll around in bed, which only occurs in nonREM sleep, since you're paralysed in REM. Doesn't sound like a reliable REM cue.

Yey..That makes alot of since to me.Your right. I'd stick with something that would recognize REM states... Or something that measures biofeedback from wellness tools.. Check those out and let me know what you think.

Dear Lamar,

I've been experimenting with a vibration device that is interfaced to a Nova Dreamer. Dr. Laberge told me during a phone conversation that the vibration devices he used tended to be noisy and woke the subject. That's why he tried attaching it to the ankle because it was farther from the ears and under the covers. Vibrators are electromechanical devices and because of the lower operating frequencies generate sounds. If the noises are suppressed then the person would only sense the vibrations. This should be possible with the new flat vibration motors being developed for cell phones. See http://www.vibratormotor.com/C1030L-50.html and http://www.omron.com/ecb/tec/h/h_4.html. Probably the best place to put a vibrator is on the fingers where there is an abundance of nerve endings. There is not enough evidence to claim that vibration cues cause "violent awakenings.' When you are in REM sleep your body is paralyzed and your sense of touch is suppressed but not completely. Hearing is still working and a violent awakening could occur from a loud noise. Other violent awakenings occur if a cold water mist is sprayed on your face or an ice cube is placed on the back of your neck. Both of these sensations cause an increase in heart rate and shock you into consciousness.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Actually I was referring to what doctor Laberge said in his book about the reasons he desided to make another type of dream cueing device. The "violent awakenings"... Meaning that when people would wake up and become Lucid they usually would be cued by the vibration turning into earhquakes and other sorts of things. Not too violent till the point nobody would want to use it or nothing like that. But I they just wanted to make somthing that was a little more subtle. That's when they created the Dreamlight.

Actually I was referring to what doctor Laberge said in his book about the reasons he desided to make another type of dream cueing device. The "violent awakenings"... Meaning that when people would wake up and become Lucid they usually would be cued by the vibration turning into earhquakes and other sorts of things. Not too violent till the point nobody would want to use it or nothing like that. But I they just wanted to make somthing that was a little more subtle. That's when they created the Dreamlight.

Dear Lamar,

The book and papers give partial answers about the problems with vibrations, and Stephen completed the reasons they didn't keep trying it when we spoke. Light cues did look more promising, but only at the time, because the technology to deliver other types of cues was clumsy and crude. The first prototype light cueing system they made was bulky and may not have worked like the other things they tried. It worked well enough, so they decided to refine and improve the design. Today we have the NovaDreamer and believe it or not it's not as capable as the DreamLight.

As far as interpreting sensory cues for something bizarre in your dreams, like an earthquake, there is lots of clinical evidence to support that. My own experiences are different. I consistently see the cues from the ND and my own LDIS for what they are, flashing pulses of colored light in my face. In fact, this morning just after I became lucid, a flash of light occurred. I immediately thought, "that's the ND giving cues. I'll just wait for them to end.' So in the dream I walked back and forth in a dark hallway for a few seconds with the blue ND lights flashing at me until they stopped. Then I enjoyed the rest of the lucid dream and tried my assignment, spinning slowly, as Paul suggested a while back. Oh, and for those who know my eating habits I ate Japanese last night.

I believe we need to train ourselves to recognize and interpret the cues for exactly what they are before we can become lucid. I know in the LD course and books we're asked to do a reality check whenever we see a light because the light cues can become mutated by our dreaming minds. We are bombarded with light constantly while awake so it's rather ridiculous to expect someone to do hundreds of reality tests every day. I resolved to train myself to recognize the light flashes as only coming from the LDID. You can use the ND to train yourself to only recognize it's cues, including the colors and number of flashes. You switch the ND on and hold it at arms length looking at the flashing lights. You do this a few times before putting it on. Then you set your intention to recognize flashes of light in your dream as only coming from the ND mask as you just saw them. I have found that for me using the 3rd eye meditation method (similar to the "white dot technique') works great for setting my intention to become aware I am dreaming and to recognize light flashes from the ND. Also that technique can be used to set your lucidity assignment. You must have an assignment. So I do three things now" 1) set my intention to become aware I'm dreaming; 2) if I'm wearing the LDID mask, set my intention to recognize flashes as coming from only it; 3) define a specific lucidity assignment for when I become lucid. This only needs to be done intently for 3 to 5 minutes while focusing on the 3rd eye.

Lastly it helps a lot to break the REM cycle by waking up 5 to 6 hours after going to bed and staying up for an hour. This is difficult to do and I hate it, but it works. What I do is set the alarm for 3 am, get up go to the bathroom, splash cold water on my face and neck then sit down on a hard chair and write about the dreams I just had for about a half an hour. I drink cold water and eat a light snack if my stomach is growling. Then I lay back down in bed and read for another half hour. It doesn't matter what, just read something interesting. After an hour of moving around and stimulating the logical half of your brain, your mind is better suited to become consciously aware when you are dreaming. The hard part is falling back to sleep, but if you ingest 2 to 3 mg of Melatonin when you first get up that should make falling back to sleep a lot easier. Also the Melatonin doesn't goof up your REM cycle like other sleep medications like Tylenol PM or SleepEze for example.

I have tried herbs, teas and vitamins to help with lucidity. I feel more energetic and healthy because of the supplements but they don't seem to help with lucidity. Other people have tried similar supplements with equally poor results. There is continuing research into using Acetylcholine Esterase Inhibitors (AChEls) like Donepizil, Rivastigmin, Galantamine and Huperzine to enhance memory and lucidity, but we'll have to wait for the clinical studies and patented medications to know that they really work. If one does come out it must NOT be over the counter but something you can buy off the shelf. What kind of medical symptom would require a doctor to order a prescription medication (like Huperzine) for lucid dreaming. Most doctors will see lucid dreaming as a purely recreational activity and never give a prescription unless it's needed for a medical condition. But if you really wanted to get a hold of these AchEls you probably can over the Internet.

Lamar, you are in a good position to become an expert Oneironaut because you're getting interested in this subject at a younger age. If I had become interested in lucid dreaming when I was your age I'd be a champ by now. But in the mid 80's when I was your age the LD induction techniques weren't as well defined as they are now. Also I've always had great dream recall but never got interested in lucid dreaming until later in life. Yes the yogis have always been the experts but they didn't write books or papers about how to have lucid dreams. Only in the last 20 years has modern scientific investigation come through with some good answers. With the tools and techniques today you have a very lucid future ahead of you! Enjoy!

Regards,

Scot Stride

Hi Scott and Paul, I'm a little confused with the decisions to either use Acetylcholine Esterase Inhibitors or Acetylcholine via DMAE? Why would you want to inhibit Acetylcholine when that supposedly gives you more alertness in the dream state to induce lucidity. Maybe I am missing some technicality here?

Also I am curious when you use these sleep devices does it require or give you the best results while sleeping on your back??

Paul, Reminds me, have you received the rest of your DreamMaker Pro from Bruce? How is that working out?

You both are right though, the best results are sleeping for 5 - 6 hours, stay up an hour and then go back to bed provided the sleep schedule goes accordingly.

Scott, there is a new compound out there released recently called FOCUS FORMULA not Focus Factor, over the counter too!!!!! It is only about $13.00 for 60 caplets containing DHA, DMAE, Huperzine-A and Vinpocetine. I have not yet used these at the opportune LD times yet, just in the morning with my AM BodyWise Formula as it complements those ingredients. I have had busy schedule lately at work so haven't experimented yet with incorporating them into the most opportune LD times, but will with WBTB eventually. Even with using this product and DMAE from Source Naturals in the AM. I have had two LDs the closest ever, about a couple of days apart. I can just imagine what would happen if I start experimenting with DMAE and Focus Factor at 3:00 AM, could be interesting. Not only that I find that if I take 1/2 the dose I actually feel on the tired side, but alert as well. The Focus Formula makes me more sleepy than the DMAE from Source Naturals. Who knows could be my low weight.

Anyway check out Focus Formula as it is quite comprehensive.

Scott, Are you writing these emails from the Retreat? I thought I read in an earlier post that you were going and may show Dr.LaBerge some of your new inventions.

Best Dreams, Patricia

Scott, Clarification, you can buy Focus Formula off the shelf and via the internet. I bought this in Kinney Drug Store.

Pat

Pat, acetylcholine esterase inhibitors prevent the enzyme(esterase) that breaks down acetylcholine from operating, thereby increasing acetylcholine levels.

Hi, Scot. How's my mask?

Paul

Thanks alot Scott for the info. I am also glad that I am starting early man. I have been having Lucid Dreams for years, so now its time for me to learn to have them at will. This way hopefully I'm able to aquire beneficial knowledge from beyond. Thanks.

Thanks Paul for the (enzyme esterase) explanation. I wonder how Huperzine A comes into to play? Would enzyme esterase really be a factor if Acetlycholine were used in conjunction with Huperzine A as well as the other required B Vitamins.

This Forum is slow. Can't wait to hear about activities at the retreat when those guys get back.

Patricia

Patricia, I was thinking the same thing this morning, out here in Denver.

What do you think about the November camp? Are U planning to make it, or maybe wait until next July? I'm probably going to have to wait a year, since I'm treasurer for a local convention in Mississippi that begins Nov 11.

Not much in the way of lucidity lately, either, but I have had some very interesting normal dreams.

Gee, I hope those guys will condescend to talk to us non-attendees when they get back. I already feel like an outsider (sniffle!)

Paul

Patricia, Huperzine-A is an esterase inhibitor, like galantamine, from what I can gather. However, you can't take oral acetylcholine and get it into the brain, you can only inhibit the esterase a little with these chemicals.

Paul

Paul, I am thinking about the November Retreat. I have already printed out Flight Information etc. The concern I have is that being most of the Forum Contributors are already there and the chances of them going again in November is slim. I am guessing that the minimum required quota of people to attend before the Retreat is booked won't be met. I may have to postpone to July anyway.

You an outsider to the Retreat? From what I've read earlier sounds like you are a vibrant contributor and they are probably the ones sniffling that you aren't there. Hope your son is doing better and nothing too serious.

My LDs for July were surprisingly close, I had one around the 10th and another the 12th or so, I posted what I could think of that I did in the Procedural Dream Log.

Regarding Acetylcholine, I have been using intermittently DMAE from Source Naturals along with complementary B Vitamins which I thought would help Acetylcholine get into the brain.The label claims it is a highly bioactive nutritional precursor to acetylcholine, a key neurotransmitter. It is hypoallergenic contains no yeast, diary, egg, gluten, corn, soy, or wheat, suitable for vegetarians. I am gathering from this information that it will create acetylcholine to be absorbed into the brain and the HuperzineA will sufficiently keep it there. I really think something happened around July 10th and 12th when I used both of these substances and that is why the LDs were so close.

Patricia

Pat:

Fear not! Most of the attendees at this past Dream Camp are not currently forum contributors (of course I'm sincerely hoping that changes, and that they start posting, because they were a wonderful and very bright group of people).

Indeed, though repeat Dream Campers are relatively rare, the wonderful Dream Camp experience of direct exposure to the world of lucid dreaming, and fellow lucid dreamers, is not.

Each Dream Camp introduces a new group of dreamers to each other, and they're all special. So don't be concerned about the return of current campers.

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Thank you Peter for explaining and clarifying the typical attendee group. I understand if cancellations are unexpected that one can receive a raincheck or apply towards a future dream camp session. Is that correct?

Also due to my work schedule I may not be able to attend the full 9 days, it would be more like 5 days not including travel days. Are there any Ala Cart arrangements?

Did anyone take pictures? How did people do with the Nova Dreamer?

Happy Dreaming, Patricia

Patricia, I don't think acetylcholine crosses the blood-brain barrier, but I could be wrong. I'll await an expert's response. Certainly metabolic precursors of it might do so. They would have to cross into the brain first, where they could then be available to raise synaptic acetylcholine levels, perhaps.

Yes, I'm a camp alumnus of 2003. I had a pretty terrible experience. What a group of jerks, couldn't stand to see any of them again, which is really why I changed my plans and didn't go! And I sure didn't have any lucid dreams, or even any normal dreams. Everybody was either stoned on the experimental substance or too busy playing touchy-feely games to pay attention! Boy, what a drag!

I highly recommend it.

Hope to see you there in November or July!

Paul

Patricia:

You should check with Keelin on the flexibility of the programs. I'm not an administrator, and though I'm sure there's always wiggle-room, I can't assume to discuss specifics.

As to pictures, there were many cameras clicking away on the last couple of days. Hopefully some of those will find there way to the forum!

Peter

Just a note on the DreamQ-V (DreamQ-Lite actually) Much like the Remdreamer, I ordered one to distract me while I wait for a new NovaDreamer. UNLIKE the remdreamer, which eventually came, the DreamQ-Lite never arrived. Yesterday I opened a complaint with PayPal, and today I rec'd my refund with this explanation:

"We apologize greatly for the inconvenience, Your shipment was returned to us ust yesterday and we;ve ben having business problems since. Hope you acceopt this refund in good terms, once again we apologize."

HI,

BTW Keelin, you usually are up on these things..when is the new novadreamer supposed to come out. I'm sure I'm asking a redundant question here, but I suppose the more noise we make the sooner we'll get one ;) maybe....

-S

Dear Stefan,

The standard (albeit grammatically incorrect) reply for some time now has been (and continues to be) "real soon". Yes, I realize that's "real vague", but it's all I can tell you at this point, acknowledging, of course, that "real" is a very difficult term to define (especially for us dreamers), and "soon" is terribly relative at best. Still, I can assure you that Stephen is continuing to pursue active threads, so stay tuned!

Meanwhile, you do realize that you already have all you truly need to have a lucid dream, yes?

So why not have one tonight? ;) Keelin

Keelin,

No offense, but that answer is what we call the "runaround." In college, when I worked as a telemarketer, that's the sort of answer I'd give to people who saw through my sales pitch and questioned the true motives behind the call. Dodge the question, give a vague, non-detailed answer, change the subject.

If for whatever reason you're not allowed to give any details on a new product coming out (completely understandable), just tell us....

Jason

Dear Jason,

Sorry -- that was indeed a rather convoluted reply. We have to answer this question so many times (and not just here on the Forum) that occasionally the response seems to take on life of it's own! In short, the new version IS being worked on, and as soon as it's ready for market, we will be more than happy to announce it.

Better? Keelin

I've heard of 'Runaround Sue', but 'Runaround Keelin'? How about this lyric:

"If you don't want to feel what you're feelin', keep away from Runaround Keelin! Oh, Oh, Ohhhhh...etc?"

Just an idea.

Paul

Keelin,

Cool, that's good enough enough for me!

Jason