Dear Scot,

The idea of a virtual eyeball is wonderfully odd. How wonderfully odd is it? Enough to make me do a reality test every time I think about it. ;)

Will be in touch soon on all things discussed, Keelin

Peter, I'm still cracking up over the "Ethernet". This is just plausible enough to be a Michael Crichton novel.

Hi All, I am excited and surprised by everything that this thread has brought up! Wilfreid, thank you for sharing your encounters, I am moved by them. What a beautiful and rare occurance to meet another being while both in a lucid dream state. To me it seems a beautiful and rare to meet another being in a lucid waking state! I am a beginner at LD as a practice, but the potential of these experiments is inspiring me to get a novadreamer and kick it up a notch! Sign me up! Scot, where do you get all this equiptment? Are you in NY by any chance? Daniel, I hope you are reading this, look what you have begun? I love how this unfolds. Sweet dreams, Valerie HOpe

Hello everyone, Valerie, isn't it wonderful the synergy that's growning from putting an idea forward?

The "blue horse" idea was for each person to pick a word or phrase known only to them. And perhaps both participants chosen words given to a third person in a sealed envelope. Starting simply at first, if sucessful then the complexity of the messages exchanged could be increased to the point where it would, if exchanged successfully, be undeniable that a real communication had taken place.

The idea that lucid dreamers could actually communicate with each other if proveb would open a whole new door of consciousness. We can see imagination fire up at the very thought of it!

Once the door, if it exsits opens even a bit, human consciousness in the western world could never be looked upon in the same way. Perhaps these lucid meetings will have no earth co-ordinates at all, that two or more people will simply "find" each other, and be able to exchange information supplied by a third party.

Or perhaps lucid dreamers could actually meet in some agreed upon dream destination. If two dreamers agreed to meet at the Eifel Tower and they were able to exchange information in no other way knowable to them, what would it matter if they were actually there or not? A meeting in consciousness would have taken place. And what if there could be a meeting place arranged, perhaps the home of a neutral individual, (a place known to both "dreamers") the neutral individual would place on the wall of a room a number or a phrase, provided in a sealed envelope by a second present person. Perhaps there could also be a digital clock nearby and the phrase or number could be changed at a pre-set time. If two dreamers were able meet and to match time and phrases, it could really be something, and this would have the advantage of being available to many participants, what if serveral people were able to meet at the same time?

First we have to consider it at least a possibility and from what, like you Valerie, we are very pleasantly surprised to hear is that there are some among us here who may very well have had this happen. Now all we have to do is come up with some interesting experiments. Let's see what we can come up with. Would it not be interesting to see, in the case of a famous landmark if lucid dreamers corresponding as we are now could meet there and describe each other, having never met!

Edison tested over ten thousand filiments before coming upon tungsten. When he found tungsten, he had repeted difficulty winding a filiment. Years later, Edison met an expert metallurgist who told him it was remarkable that he chose this metal which was considered to brittle to work with, for his bulb. Edison replied if "I had known it was impossible I wouldn't have tried to use it".

Friends, we know lucidity itself was considered impossible not long ago by the scientific community, or just a figment of the imagination.

Now we know it to be a fact. And what a fact it is! EEG's show the brain to be in the sleep state.

According to the way this data was interpreted before it should be impossible for a person to be conscious at that time. Yet Stephen proved it was a reality. This is now taken a matter of course, but consider what a change it represents: A so-called impossibility occurs, and is proven to be an undeniable fact. That's a revolution!

Does this not point to the possiblity, at least, that consciousness is not totally linked to brain function? With lucidity it certainly was shown to be very much different than the prevailing theory's would admit.

If people could consciously meet in "impossible" lucidity, then perhaps we're not as separate as we think.

Let's have fun with our experiments, we may be on the verge of making a very important discovery.

If it were possible to mutually inhabit lucidity, would it not be even that much more appealing and motivating to work towards?

Think of the explorations, possible.

Will be away from computer until Monday. So, Valerie, Peter, Gordon, Scott, Keelin, David & Wilfried, have a great weekend. Thank you all for your wonderful ideas and input, I'd love to address each post but there's so much! Simply because it's not possible for me to do so, does not make them unappreciated, they are. How much possibility there is in life!

How fortunate that we, in this time, have the ability to communicate with each other through computer technology.

Will end with this: A group of explorers of the Amazon jungle in the 40's came across a primative tribe. They communicated about the "dream trips" they had taken together to the sea, and described by scratching out in the soil what they had seen, buildings, automobiles, things they had never seen, places they had never physically been, and should have had no knowledge of, yet their trips to the coast were mutually seen and shared with each other.

Regards,

Daniel

Daniel

you wrote:

If people could consciously meet in "impossible" lucidity, then perhaps we're not as separate as we think.

According to my and some friend's experiences one can be confident to get a convincing prove that separation is a self created illusion and brain functions usually only coincidate with conscious and subconscious processes but do not create them, if one seriously strives for this insight.

To get an 'objective' prove which is 'violent' enough letting collaps the ideological support others may be in need of, seems to be very difficult or even impossible.

My own experiences indicate that this might be so because some inner authorities residing in the subconsciousness of men, sometimes being sensed as an unusually wise aspect of one's personality, and not being subject to the boundaries of a single personality have the power of veto.

Anyhow, may be the time is ready for scientific proves that a purely materialistic paradigm is at best incomplete. Such an insight might shatter the Weltanschauung of many but might also help to overcome the fear of death and to recognize a personal responsibility which extends into the regions of emotion and thought including of course even the world of dreams.

So, let's try to find out, whether or not shared dreaming can be scientifically proven. I am going to rid my NovaDreamer from the dust and will start to re-motivate myself in order to become again able to participate in such experiments.

Here are my ideas about how it could be done:

I think it is even in the dream state easier to meet someone who is not too far away so a dream camp could be a perfect opportunity. Everybody must have some cue to attune him/herself to the person he/she wants to find. If you know him or her very well then you could visualize his or her face during or before spinning. I think it is easiest to attune oneself to someone you love or to someone you feel connected to. This connection can probably also be established by reading these postings for some time and sharing this interest. Having a photograph would help in visualising the 'target' although dream appearance does not necessarily be such that you can easily recognize the other person from what you see in the dream. Meeting people seems easier to me than gathering at a certain place, as in dreams many people can be at the same place without perceiving each other. Keelin's Statue of Liberty might be a different dream place than my one as she probably connects the location with completely different memories than me. But to connect a contact target (a very experienced lucid dreamer who is able to have a lucid dream at a predefined time and date with maximum likelyhood) with a place (Hawai??? - is there a photograph of some very characteristic and meaningful location?) might be a good idea. This does not necessarily mean that we would meet at some material place but it probably helps to find each other as it might synchronize our thoughts and emotions a bit better. We might also watch the same movie before we go to bed, e.g. The Matrix :-) for the same reason.

If the meeting is organized as a party where the most experienced one invites all others to see him at a certain time and date, he could communicate a 'public key' - a photograph of him/her plus a photograph of a nice meeting place, a personal quote and a personal invitation. All participants also create a private key (words, phrases, objects) communicated to a neutral observer only, maybe sent in a sealed envelope. At the dream party private keys may be exchanged freely. Whatever participants remember after awakening will be collected by the neutral observer, again in sealed envelopes. Maybe a series of meetings should be scheduled to increase the chances of success.

See you at the dream party :-) Wilfried

By the way,

have you ever thought about the consequences it could have if lucid exploration of the material world would become a skill which can easily be learned by everybody? Wouldn't it be the end of any privacy? Wouldn't this skill immediately be abused in many creative ways?

If we want to be successfull we first have to convince our inner authorities of our pure intentions in order to get that permission to show or prove anything paranormal. That's why such evidences are usually obtained spontaneously when they are not expected and recorded but required to give a sincere searcher an insight for his personal spiritual growth.

So let's not get too excited - this wouldn't allow us to stay in the dream state - and let's concentrate more in creating proper conditions in ourselves allowing shared dreams to take place, rather than thinking of most sophisticated technical systems and organisational tasks in order to prove to even the greatest skeptic that we are right.

Dear All,

This is a follow-up on the shared lucid dream experiment. To make this experiment possible with the NovaDreamer it needs to be modified to allow remote computer control via the ND audio port. You will find at URL: http://www.interstellar-probes.org/LDIS/ND_Computer_Control_Mod.jpg a simulated "to scale" image showing a Solid-State Relay (SSR) chip attached to the ND circuit board. The relay is normally-closed so that when the audio port is not used the ND functions normally. This mod requires three traces be cut (shown in red) on the ND in order to insert the relay. One at the BCD rotary switch pin 1, one between pin 10 on the MCU and the rotary switch, and one between the audio port and pin 9 on the MCU. The SSR is epoxied on the ND board where shown and tiny "haywires" (shown in green) are soldered to the appropriate pins. These mods would take less than an hour to complete (following epoxy cure) by an experienced technician or engineer. The haywires would be expoxied down once all the wiring was complete. What the SSR does is allow the ND to be remotely switched from position 1 to position 0 and then back again. As you know, when the ND is switched from 0 to 1 it sends the user defined cues to the ND. This is how the remote cueing is accomplished.

In practice a stereo 3.5mm connector cable is inserted into the ND. Two signals run to and from the ND on this cable. The cable runs a few meters to a Digital I/O board (LabJack U12 or Measurement Computing PMD-1208LS). The board I/O is optically isolated from the ND to protect it from undesired current paths. The board can receive cue pulses from the ND and also send cue signals to it. Two long USB cables run from the board to a computer running the shared dream software. The computer could be located in another room from the oneironauts or in the same room as the dreamers. The software would run in real-time allowing the experimenters to watch the test results. Besides automatic synchronized cueing, the experimenter could also manually send cues to the dreamers. A diagram of the setup can be found at URL: http://www.interstellar-probes.org/LDIS/Shared_LD_Setup.jpg

If desired the experiment could also be broadcast over the Internet. Imagine giving a WWW oneironaut audience a chance to watch, or tune into, a live streaming shared lucid dream experiment. That would be a historic first in the world of lucid dreaming. I should be purchasing a used ND soon and can modify it for remote control. I have two digital I/O USB cards and can write the shared dream software in LabVIEW. All I would need is a second ND to make the same improvements to and this shared LD experiment could become a reality. I am proposing that this experiment be completed in time so it can be carried out at the upcoming Kalani retreat using two experienced lucid dreamers. Now, if the Kalani program is already decided, and this experiment has no chance of being carried out then I won't spend any more time on it.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Scot, Is there a way to set up a connection through the internet so more people can be added?

If so, I'll get my ND modified ASAP! I don't become lucid at will yet, but the more people connected the better chances of success.

Also, if there was a way to connect through the internet, the experiment wouldn't be dependent on the schedule of Dream Camp.

Gordon brings up an interesting point that may toss a possible wrench in this experiment: How many of us actually achieve advanced lucidity on a single ND cue? That almost is "lucidity at will," and to expect two dreamers to manage it at the same time might be too much to ask, regardless of the quality of the equipment.

Perhaps that is an excellent reason to get as many people into the program as possible, to raise the odds of more than one person becoming lucid...

Peter

Dear Peter,

This is an experiment, and like most experiments it may not work. But at least we'll have learned something by trying. Since we have the power to devise a well conceived experiment, that improves the odds of success but doesn't guarantee anything. In previous posts I suggested trying to synchronize the ND cues to give the dreamers the best chance to become lucid at the same time. It does not require the subjects be guru yogi oneironauts, only that they be experienced at becoming lucid when presented with a dreamsign cue. I have no idea how long it would take for the dreamers to carry out their assigned task of sharing a codeword, codenumber, or eye-movement tracking with a dream character. If after several days, the two dreamers got to the point of sharing their code with a dream character during the same REM cycle, that's a great start even if the code didn't match.

I do not advise anyone tamper with their ND until I've had a chance to prove that the mod works. For example, I know that adding sockets to the ND works, allowing different colored LEDs to be used. This feature helps to reduce "habituation" or "acclimation" to the same colored cue. I modified Tom's ND and he has the ability to choose between 10 different pairs of colored LEDs. I did this for him because he had become distracted by the single red color cue. Hopefully this modification has helped him overcome that problem. I would need to add the SSR to the modified ND and test it with the software before I knew it would work. As I said, I may be getting a used ND soon and could begin the mods in a few weeks. Of course I would let all of you know how it turned out.

It should be possible to connect two oneironauts through the Internet. However, this experiment is likely the second one to be tried only after the first one has been attempted and shows promise. I say this because if the first part is a dismal failure with two experienced LD'ers, then hooking up through the Internet two novice LD'ers may not be worth the effort. For my part all I'm doing is coming up with a way to connect two lucid dreamers together. I leave coordinating the high level details of the experiment to someone with clinical experience like Stephen. Again, if the Kalani schedule permits it would be nice to try this at dreamcamp.

Regards,

Scot Stride

Peter, Scott... I have some good news and some bad news for you!

The good news first: A lucid dream has much in common with a normal dream, so only one participant needs to actively find the others and has therefore to be lucid. For the others it might be sufficient to be in a REM state. They have to be woken up after a meeting has been attempted in order to let them write down what they remember.

Now the bad news: Two or more persons having become lucid at exactly the same moment is not even half of the story. Now they have to find each other. It's not enough to generate a personal image of the target person and to communicate with this dream character. This is what probably happens in 99% of such cases proving to many people that dream characters are nothing more than imaginations.

To be honest, I don't know how to achieve true paranormal contact. It simply happened to me several times and neither I nor my partners were ever able to say how this was achieved. It was like being arranged by destiny.

But who can tell whether destiny, observing so much sincer enthusiasm of all the posters here, does not decide to arrange a dream party with true mind to mind communications, accurately recorded and documented by lab instruments in order to create the first scientific prove, that it does make sense to consider causes and effects not originating in the worlds of space and time.

I would really wish, this were possible...

Take care, Wilfried.

Dear Wilfried,

This seems reasonable and is a very valid point. In fact, it's possible to set an ND to deliver blank (non-stimulus) cues to the sleeper, yet the ND will still output a pulse indicating it did send a cue. In that case the non-lucid dreamer can be supplying added REM cues to the lucid dreamer. At a minimum, the non-lucid dreamer must have excellent dream recall of details, that counts me in.

The bad news isn't so bad when you consider that if both lucid dreamers are able to encounter their dream counterparts, then there is a chance that they did find each other. And even if they don't, if a strong character does appear it might be the person they seek so they should deliver their codeword anyway.

What about that residual 1%? Is there any record of such an experiment as we are discussing having been carried out in a controlled way? Has Tholey or LaBerge ever tried this? If not, we would be breaking new ground by trying.

Regards,

Scot Stride

For anyone interested in mutual dreaming, Lucid and nonLucidtry this:

Mutual Dreaming, by Linda Lane Magallón (New York: Pocketbooks, 1997).

Good luck!

Paul

Dear Scot,

I am not aware of any serious scientific prove for such phenomena while many more or less trustworthy subjects have reported having made such experiences (mostly spontaneously). If we had success it would indeed be breathtaking.

Whether Stephen LaBerge has ever made such experiments and whether he experienced anything paranormal personally, only he could tell. Unfortunately it is often very difficult for a scientist to avow himself publically for dealing with such matters even if he is known for strictly following scientific standards.

The world of dreams is nothing supernatural, but it obviously contains some gates leading out of the generally known world. I and many others have found these gates by chance and got subjectively convincing evidence of their existence. I hardly can believe that people like Keelin and Stephen who have been exploring the world of LD for such a long time never ever came close to those gates. Unless... yes, unless these experiences depend on what you are expecting to get! If you expect light to behave like particles it will behave like particles. If you expect light to behave like a wave it will behave like a wave...

So let's expect that separation is an illusion and that human consciousness is One in reality. This expectation might help us to get the proves we are looking for (helping others to expect that as well).

Take care, Wilfried.

Idea of two or more people trying to meet in a lucid dream is fantastic!I have met and talked to people no longer living in lucid and non lucid dreams..Most people say that they were just a creation of my own mind..Mabey so.. But I think that If two or more dreamers were to meet...It would have to be on a very high mind level.. Something like tebetan dream yoga experts can acheave..I would say do the experiment..But try hard to recall [every detail] of the dream because Its posable that the two lucid dreamers may meet in a [compleatly diferent way] than expected..So I would compair all the dreams from ALL dreamers involved their contents and review these dreams to look for any kind of message or meaning that might relate to this experiment..They say that dreams can give information through mental pictures.. So If the experiment seems to fail dont give up.. Atleast comunication might happen in an unexpected way.. Cool Dreams..Tom