I'd appreciate any experiences connected with practicing yoga saddhana (or any other forms of static/dynamic meditation) while in lucid state.

E.g. Some time ago I was a rigorous practicioner of hatha and Tensegrity. I did them sets several times a day. My body started to remember these states and movements so much that it all began to infiltrate my dreams. Once I had an idea to use Tensegrity instead of the spinning techique. It didn't help to remain lucid longer, because I felt great excitement as I watched streams of energy flowing around me. But I managed to grasp some 'advanced' aspects of the practice and bring them back to my daily practices.

I also tried asanas and sufi spinning. It was something that one could perhaps describe as dissolvation of the Self.

I would like to extend these experiments. So if you have any ideas or have already went through this, or just as myself come accross such happening now and again, write back. You will find a grateful interlocutor.

While I cannot respond specifically to the comment by begem, I would like to hear what anyone has to say about Tibetan Dream Yoga. Does anyone out there practise lucid dreaming for yogic purposes? If so, what results have you had and which practices do you find the most effective and comprehensible?

Joan

Begem, I came across a passage in a book on Tibetan Dream Yoga which might be relevant to your experience with practising hatha yoga during a lucid dream:

"Many of the methods of practicing Dharma that are learned during waking can, upon development of dream awareness, be applied in the dream condition. In fact, one may develop these practices more easily and speedily within the dream if one has the capacity to be lucid. There are even some books that say that if a person applies a practice within a dream, the practice is nine times more effective than when it is applied during the waking hours." Norbu, Namkhai (1992) DREAM YOGA AND THE PRACTICE OF NATURAL LIGHT (Snow Lion) p. 41.

I have also read elsewhere (can't remember) that yoga practices during lucid dreaming are more effective than during waking because the physical body is not there to interfere.

Some years ago I started to meditate while in an OBE experience and had a major sensation of energy and noise gushing up my spine -- a kundalini experience that occasionally used to wake me from sleep, but it was never as intense as this particular time.

Joan

Joan, thank you for shering your experience. The passage from Norbu is very reassuring. But do you know any particular 'technologies'?

Begem

Begem, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "technologies". Do you mean spiritual practices such as meditation or Tibetan techniques for dream yoga? The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but dream techniques are generally done before sleep and during night awakenings. For night techniques, I would recommend the book Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Now, what spiritual practices you do during your lucid dreams might depend on what spiritual practices you do during waking. If you already meditate, then I guess you could incorporate the same practice, but if you don't, then perhaps trying one from a book on Tibetan Yoga or the book mentioned above.

Joan

Hallo Joan,

I've also read the two yoga books you mentioned and I'd be interested to know if you are practising one of the methods (esp. concentrating on the throat and heart chakras) regularly and if so, have you had any success so far? I've tried this and that over the years but without noticable success. Wangyal Rinpoche's book is, of course, very clear and comprehensive, but I've always got the feeling that for Tibetans it's so much easier to do all those complicated visualizing practises. I for one have never yet managed to visualize a red four petalled lotus, let alone Tibetan syllables to go with it. What about you? And do you know of any other books on the same subject? I think the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism are certainly the most advanced in this field and therefore worth taking a good look at.

Peter

This is in response to the posts on Tibetan Dream Yoga exercises in Lucid Dreams. ( Sept '04) I have tried doing some simple Dream Yoga exercises, but found Tibetan visualizations difficult. What I have found successful was doing simple mantras when I reached lucidity. Then depending on the mantra, I would get different results. Doing mantras to invoke a diety's presence and protection seemed to help me with former problems in the dreamscape--like trying to transform imagery. Mantras helped with maintaining lucidity longer and gave me a better sense of empowerment.

Anyone else practice Tibetan Dream Yogas have any comments?

Hello Eve, I just started recently about two weeks ago and found a really succinct efficient method. When practicing the Nightime Practice I had a Lucid Dream each week vs. each month. I am a little off now due to my traveling schedule, but I did not have to do this for very long to see quick results. I also do a few other sporadic things. Here it is, I'll try to be concise.

1. At night before bed say three times something to the effect that you would like to awaken in your dreams and grasp the fact that you are dreaming. ( I would shy away from words like will and must and even want, it sounds too whiny.) I usually say I Desire to Remember to Recognize that I am Dreaming. three times.
2. Lie on your right side with legs together and knees slightly bent. Let the right bent arm take the weight of your torso by resting your head on the open right hand.
3. Bring your attention to the throat chakra, and imagine your energy rising up out of your body. Feel it rise up from the heart chakra with your breath and pass into the "third eye" (between your eyebrows). Now visualize a full bright moon behind your eyes. Go into that light.
4. Also visualize the letter "A" which stands for infinite space on the surface of this imagined moon. You may eventually see images begin to appear on the sphere of light behind your eyes.I haven't yet, but I believe this is contributing to more LDs. I don't do it for very long either as my arm get tired. I may breath in about ten times and then just go to bed. Hope this helps. Patricia

Patricia, Thank you for your suggestion on Dream Yoga exercises that have worked for you. For some reason this post never reached my mailbox and today going through the discussions I found it! I'm experimenting now with seeing how the attention on the throat chakra helps induce WILDS more efficiently. I haven't been able to really notice, so its something I will work on.

Have you had any success in bringing up an image like the Buddha or statue in the dreamscape after doing visualizations in meditation?

Sincerely,

Eve

Hi Eve,

The only visualization I do is imagining the letter "A" and going into the light. I never got that deep into the practice as I use other mental and visual techniques. Just doing this mental Dream Yoga exercise nightly at minimum seems to have increased the vividness of the Dreams. I have a rather focused attention span so mental exercises and concentration on first person perspective films seems to work well. I would prefer to be able to induce Lucid Dreaming and will, but maybe I am asking too much considering my activities while awake and my average of 5 1/2 hours of sleep per night. I am going to develop a program for myself after my traveling settles down that contains more consistency with a variety of methods and see what happens with that and keep a log of what I did. Only the prominent LDs will count.

Happy Dreaming, Pat

Tibetan Dream Yoga/DayTime Practice/Mirror Practice Hello Eve,

Here is another effortless method to enhance LDs the Tibetan Way to follow throughout the day.

1. Think of your body as illusory and unreal.

2. Imagine the mind and mental activities as similarly insubtantial.

3. Regard the world and all phenomena and experience as dreamlike, insubstantial, impermanent, and unreal.

4. Recognize/Realize the relativity and ungraspable quality of time, space, knowledge, and awareness.

By mentally repeating these 4 ideas during the waking hours, it helps to dissolve the barrier between dreaming and the beta waking mind.

Mirror Practice:

During the day periodicaly stand in front of a mirror and hold a hand mirror behind your right or left ear and look at its reflection in the larger mirror. Keep angling the hand mirror so it cascades and you see multiple images of you holding the hand mirror in the larger mirror and let the mind fragment with the image. After a few minutes bring the hand mirror to its original position so you see the single image again. This routine may subtley trick the mind during the day into thinking it is not substantial during the waking beta phase, therefore, enhancing the prominence of dreaming.

Hope these help too ! Patricia

Patricia, your practice above, and indeed much of Buddhist philosophy, seems to devalue our perceptions of reality by focusing on their insubstantiality and illusory nature, and their impermanence. Granted that all of these attributes are true, don't these practices create a mindset in which we fail to appreciate the beauty and wonder of our perceptions, both in our dreams and waking lives? How does one maintain the sense of awe at what appears in your dreams or in waking life if we relate to it only as illusion, even if that's what it is?

I'm afraid that these practices, while perhaps giving me more lucidity, will lead to my enjoying it less.

Just asking for some understanding.

Paul

Patricia:

Also, there may be an inherant problem in taking the steps above: some less spiritually-minded people might actually take the practice to heart and truly believe that their physical forms, and the waking world are illusory. If they do that, then they run a real chance of, say, believing that a truck will pass right through them, or perhaps that they will survive a leap off a tall building (I'm pretty sure this has happened in the past).

Maybe there's a medium position to take here?

Best of Dreams,

Peter

Response to: Paul and Peter Hello, Paul - I guess I didn't view the insubstantial nature depicted in the Daytime formula as being literally illusory etc., but rather as play acting during the day with the 4 steps to help induce vivid LDs at night. Also one would not chronically mull over in their mind these steps all day long so as to lose site of the pleasant perceptions around them. It should subtley bring the two together being beta waking consciousness and the dreaming mind so as to help create more vivid LDs without interrupting the enjoyment of both physical and dreaming life.

Peter - As for people taking to heart the 4 steps, hopefully common sense will prevail and they will realize that it is just a mental exercise to help induce Lucid Dreaming along with utilizing many other methods. See the link below. I just tried to retrieve concepts that were rather quick and to the point.

Happy Vivid Lucid Dreaming !!! Patricia P.S. I actually get more enjoyment out of Lucid Dreaming than physical beta state. Not that I don't enjoy the physical beta state, it is just that LDs are more vividly interactive as you already know with much more mobility.

http://www.plotinus.com/zhine_tibetan_dream_yoga_part2.htm

Patricia, your last comment touches on what I've been pondering. I can see even a mundane scene in a dream and gaze in rapture. Awake, however, the world goes by in a dull blur. I only feel a sense of wonder occasionally. If I see the same scene in waking life, I probably wouldn't notice it, or would just give it passing attention. Why not the same sense of wonder, I wonder? After all, it's the same marvel of the mind that I am viewing, the mind's creation. Yet I take waking perception much more for granted. Maybe because I'm so used to it.

Paul

Hi, Patricia and Paul,

While describing a bewildering waking life episode to Stephen one day, I ended by saying, "...so now I'm left to wonder.... Or am I right to wonder?" To which he astutely replied, "It's a wonder we don't wonder all the time."

How very true! Keelin

Keelin, exactly my thoughts. And naturally, I wonder why we don't wonder, and more importantly, how do we rekindle the wonder of our daily experience and keep it lit.

We can't go around all day marveling at everyhting that is, can we? Or can we? Lately I've been trying to recall the sense of awe I experience in lucid dreams as I go about mundane tasks, but it's hard to maintain. Just driving down the street involves such a bewildering and wonderful series of perceptions, and they're not "out there", but "in here", between my ears (where there's lots of space!) But I can only hold the feeling for a brief moment.

In a sense, it's kind of sad that we need lucid dreaming to experience that awe. We really should live in perpetual amazement!

Hawaii beckons...

Paul

Hello Keelin and Paul, The Bottom Line For Me Is: If I had to choose between the Lucid Dreaming State of Mind and the Conscious Beta State of Mind and I could have only one of of the two states to remain in, it would most definitely be the Lucid Dreaming State as all the senses are intact in a much more vivid manner as well has having the ability to converse with people, fly, and actually penetrate thru barriers, obstacles etc. Also I can to as I please, not that I don't pretty much already. Tee Hee. Wish I was Going To Hawaii this July, but it didn't work out this time. At least I could get to Naropa !! Great to be in an environment with similar minded people.

Happy Dreams, Patricia

Keelin,

I'd like to know what happened in that awe inspiring moment, in your earlier post and what you wondered? Was it a powerful synchronicity created through a lucid dream intention?

These kinds of waking life lucid moments are truly fascinating. Wish I experienced them more often. Maybe its about being present, in the moment like we did as children.

Eve

Hello fellow dreamers...I have an idea that I have been thinking about for some time. So why don't you guys try this experiment with me. Its very similar to one of Dr.Laberg's ideas.

1. Get a digital watch. But one that you are able to set an alarm to go off every hour.

2. Each time that watch beeps. Ask yourself whether you are dreaming or not without answering the question right away until you have some proof of this matter.

3.Look at your watch and see the time. If you look back again and the #'s scramble then you know you are dreaming. If not then you know you are awake.

I believe if you do this throughout the day it will carry into the dream world. I have done it with a regular digital watch without it alrming me every hour,but rather me alarming myself,and it has carried over many times in dreams. So I know for sure to have a watch that alarms you would have much greater results. So please somone try this experiment with me and let me know you progress within a week.Please email me your progress lmaniac23@yahoo.com

Lamar, I did that for several weeks this year, but the results were disappointing. I never had a dream to my knowledge where my dream watch sounded the alarm, so I abandonned the practice. It did not help me to remember that I am dreaming when I'm dreaming.

I now devote all my efforts to the practice of prospective memory using varying cues, as I have been posting. I have to have a strong enough intention to remember to do the reality test when the cue presents itself. This strengthens intention and prospective memory. I found the watch thing did neither.

However, I am happy that it works for you. Perhaps the difference is that you have to remember to "alarm yourself", which sounds a lot like prospective memory too. Just passively doing a reality test when the watch sounds the alarm may not be as effective.

Paul

hello guys and gals, I have been waiting for the improved WatchMinder2 for several months now, they are still working out the bugs. This watch has many settings which are useful for the above mentioned tasks, and can be programmed to, for example, read "Dreaming?" every 5 minutes(or whatever). Seems like a good idea, however, my phone has a similiar feature, where I typed "dreaming?" to be displayed at various times during a ringing or vibrating signal(27 times per day or more), for several days. Didn't appear to affect my critical awareness during REM, and I actually built up a resistance to checking the message on my phone, choosing instead to turn off the signal without checking the cue, and eventually just turning off the ringing or vibrating on my phone altogether. I still think this is a good idea in theory, and maybe when I get the special watch, which is much more convenient to check than a cell-phone, I will have better results. At the same time, i don't believe that machines and gadgets can ever replace our own determination and persistance in the long term. My own internal resistance to the constant cueing now has me missing any phone calls I might receive because i don't want the ringer on and I don't want to reset(deset) the 27 signal times.