Have any of you deliberately used the dream state in what you might call an artistic manner? I myself find lucid dreaming artistically inspiring and useful. It works both as an end unto itself, IE the lucid dream as a living aesthetic experience, but also as a way to explore visual ideas that can be brought back to the waking world.

For some time I've been interested in the relationship between dreaming, particularly lucid dreaming, and the arts.

Note: Anyone who shares this interest is welcome to wander into a new little corner of cyberspace I've set up. It's not a chat/post site so it's NO subsitute for our beloved Forum here, but it is a free place where people can submit/view artwork related to the dreaming mind. Members here please feel free to contact me.

More importantly, it would be fun to discuss the subject, right here at the Mother Ship, of course. :-)

thanks, Reverie

While I'm not an artist, as a hobby I make tools for 3d artists and game developers. Two of my software packages (Ripple Rain & Eleblend) were conceived of in a dream. One's mechanics were eventually sketched out in a dream.

I first realized the potential use of dreams when I was having a problem with some software I was writing at work.

The number 234 kept appearing. What time does my flight leave? 2:34pm. What flight number? 234 What's the phone number to the cab company? 234-1234. How much do I owe the cabbie for the ride? $2.34

Sure enough, line 234 of my program had a logical, not syntactical flaw.

VERY odd. I don't understand it. Might be coincidence, though. I told coworkers about it and got the "your DREAM told you where the bug was?" as if I had just announced that I was selling all of my possessions and opening up a lawn watering service in Bangladesh.

Kerry,

Awesome story! I don't believe in coincidences, personally.

Paul

Yes, Kerry-- I agree with Paul; it is a great story, and well told.

It sounds plausible to me, especially if my understanding is correct that the programming bug might be something you would have known on some non-conscious level. It makes sense that it could manifest in a dream like that. And so elegantly persistent!

There's a lot more to our minds than the parts we experience directly / consciously, that's for sure. We may all be secret savants.

Wouldn't it be marvelous to be so adroit at lucid dreaming that we could deliberately set up dream scenarios that could trick our minds into revealing things we needed to know? Like looking for an answer in a box, or something.

By the way, I find it interesting that many programmers become quite interested in lucid dreaming...

All best dreams, Reverie

Welcome back, Reverie!

Although, at the moment, I'm not recalling any specific instances of incubating artistic solutions in my lucid dreams, I do believe that being an oneironaut has had a very definite and positive affect on my ability to feel creatively expressive in many ways. This may have as much to do with the unusual perspectives offered in a world where I realize all is illusory as it does with enhancing my appreciation for the oddest of odd found there.

By the way, thank you for the invitation to visit your wondrous website -- and congratulations on its long-awaited launch!

May your dreamart garden continue to blossom, Keelin

I'm not really one for, as my dad would say, "tall tales" but any time I relate that story I can't help but to feel like I'll get a "yeah right" on it.

In all reality I wish I could have saved my "magic answer" dream for something a little more important than work.

And just to clarify my earlier statements...none of the above were lucid dreams. I can only imagine the work I'd get done if I became lucid.

Even if I don't have a lucid dream or even recall my dream, I'll sometimes (once every two weeks maybe) wake up with some sort of idea/inspiration. And you guessed it, if I don't write it down, I forget about it.

Right now I'm working on something to try to put into video a particularly vivid hypnogogic experience I had whilst running through the 61 Point Relaxation technique Dr. LaBerge adapted from Rami. I've found it's incredibly difficult to put into pictures what I saw.

Reverie:

Does writing count? I often draw inspiration from my dreams for writing, and have occasionally wandered an LD looking for cool subject matter:

For me it's almost like cheating, because inspiration (with images I'm incapable of conjuring in my waking life) is just floating out there waiting for me. All writers, and not just Coleridge, should be exploring their dreams! Ironically, inspiration comes best when I DON'T plan on seeking images, but rather work myself into a dream that relates to the theme of my search, and then, when I discover a promising image or scene, I keep to the periphery like I'm watching a movie. This allows the image to form 'on its own,' without any coaxing from my waking ideas. That way I get fresh, often unexpected images, and the occasional awesome surprise!.

That's not exactly what you're discussing, I know, but I figured I'd share. I'm also inspired by this discussion to do a little sculpting in my dreams again. I used to do this (I worked mostly with light and water), but it got depressing because I couldn't take the objects into the waking world with me!

Creative dreams for all,

Peter

Kerry:

I'm pretty sure we're not limited to just one "magic answer" dream per lifetime. By keeping up on recording your dreams, remembering them, and struggling to translate images into your medium, you're paving the road for more "magic answers." ...and lucidity!

Peter

You're right, Peter. And I shouldn't have the attitude that I'll only have one such dream.

I'm remembering, on average, at least one dream a night and sometimes two.

Even paving the way has been exciting. Once, I felt myself go into what I assume is sleep paralysis. I was startled at first and then relaxed a bit and it felt like...well, someone pushing against my lip from inside my mouth.

Note to self: Brains are cool. Pay attention more.

Reverie,

Did I miss something? What's your website address. I'd like to visit.

Paul

Peter: Your comments are write on. This thread is actually not limited to visual arts. I'm rushing around right now but I have more I'd like to ask & say on the subject here. Your post was great.

Paul & co: No; you didn't miss anything-- it's a little Yahoo site I'm just getting off the ground, for submitting material related to the inter-relationship between dreams, the arts, lucidity, and creativity. (I've given it the fanciful name of "Dreamland Literary and Cinematic Society"). I'll send the URL to anyone interested (Paul, I just sent it to you).

Kerry: brains ARE cool. I think I'll post that on my monitor.

And you guys are cool, too.

Take care, all, and have the Dreams of your Dreams.

reverie

Hi everyone!

I just got my password today and this is the first time for me to see this thread, so please forgive me if i've missed something, but haven't any of you guys seen the film "Waking Life"? Now THAT is art inspired by lucid dreaming, and a cool film to boot!

See - http://www.wakinglifemovie.com

I'm a commercial artist in the moving image, and my dreams have always influenced my work, as well as most things in my life.

I hope i'll have a chance to spend more time here and maybe get to know a few of you better + learn + contribute more etc.

Happy dreams, Ayman

Ayman:

Welcome to the forum! Indeed, "Waking Life" is familiar to many forum members. Check out the Miscellaneous/Forum Films forum for lots of conversation about it.

And we look forward to your future contributions to our ongoing verbal renderings of the art of Lucid Dreaming!

Peter

Welcome, Ayman! Good to have you here.

Paul

Aha!!! I KNEW i was missing something!

Thanks Peter, i'm on my way there right now...

...and Paul, it's good to be here

Ayman

Hi, dreamers. Here's a link to an article that appeared today, on LD.

http://tinyurl.com/ysg4

The author quoted a few of us in this article. I thought it might be fun to post (here) the entire piece I sent her. She pulled a few quotes from it, but here you can read my comments on art and creativity in LD.

Concrete personal examples of useful lucid dreams

Brenda Giguere October 17, 2003

If they never did anything useful, lucid dreams would still be worth having because of how endlessly fascinating and enjoyable they are. But for me, lucid dreaming has always been a lot more than that.

As an adult, I often enjoy lucid dreaming as an adventure where I can search for interesting new ideas for my combined media art projects. This is something I use lucid dreaming for all the time. I occasionally use lucid dreaming to rehearse things, such as public speaking" I have found it's really good for that. But mostly nowadays I use it to help with my artistic pursuits.

What I typically do is this: I set up a lucid dream where I am flying around in an incredibly vast and dramatic interior space. Sometimes it might take me a few nights to succeed, but I do eventually manage to make it happen. This space is a huge interior, with little open balconies coming out from the walls" the space itself is many stories high like some hotels have, except larger. I like to fly from balcony to balcony, and then walk around and look for interesting objects and art pieces in each area.

For some reason, this particular technique'dreaming about this interior space'works really well for me. Maybe this is because it's a natural metaphor. Anyway, I really love the dream itself, because it's so fun to fly" and that big interior is always so beautiful.

But the best part is, I almost always find fascinating, dreamlike objects. These things are very different than those I might normally come up with while awake" things like a surrealistic-looking combination desk and painted metal lunchbox, or a picture-book made of fabric with little mirrors on it, or some boots made entirely of Belgian lace with silk roses on them. Even if I don't execute a particular dream-design literally, it's still really inspirational as a starting point for a project. Not long ago I started working on some fashion doll pattern books that started out as ideas in lucid dreams.

Because I'm consciously aware that I'm dreaming, I can really look at the things I'm seeing in the dream'I'm always blown away by what my brain can create. I always really think about what I'm seeing, and I try to remember every detail.

Knowing it's a dream allows me to ignore distractions when they show up'for some reason, my husband likes to pop up in my dreams and start asking questions" so if I know it's a dream I can ignore him without feeling bad about it!

Anyway, there's something really fun about finding the objects instead of feeling like I'm devising them. It may sound strange, but this technique really works, and it's so enjoyable to be surprised by something you've actually created yourself. (continued)

This interior space idea is probably my most consistently useful personal lucid dreaming method. But I also have other lucid dreams in other settings, and I just keep my eyes open for interesting ideas.

I've been into lucid dreaming since before I knew what it was called. Sometimes it's been useful outside of my artistic activities.

I can remember in high school, I would go ice skating with my friends every week at a local shopping center. All I would ever do was skate in boring circles, while most of my friends were more adventurous in their skating. I got really fed up with myself about being such a chicken, but I seemed doomed to skate in circles forever. One night as I was falling asleep, I suddenly realized I could practice skating in my dreams, and maybe it would help! I'd had lucid dreams before, from time to time, without knowing what they were called, and thought they were so great. So as I was falling asleep, I focused my thoughts on skating. Before long I was dreaming I was skating, and I got very excited. I knew it was a dream, so I knew it couldn't hurt me at all" impulsively I decided to start skating backwards. It was so realistic! I got the very convincing sensation of skating backwards--- the movement of my legs, the cool air, the feeling of propelling myself this way. Suddenly, it made sense to me as a set of logical, fluid, sequential body movements. I was really feeling and learning what it would feel like to propel my body that way.

I was able to skate backwards after this dream without any hesitation. Some of my friends might even remember this.

Two things seemed to have happened when I had this dream. One, my body rehearsed a realistic set of movements which got laid down in my brain, just as if I had actually done the skating. My later readings of reputable literature confirmed this. My brain was actually able to model, in a convincing and realistic way, what backwards skating would entail. This is not as mysterious as it sounds, because my brain had all the raw data it needed to run the Backwards Ice Skating Program. The second thing that happened is I experienced success at the activity, which helped my confidence a great deal.

Brenda,

I like looking at pictures hanging on walls in lucid dreams. I really wish I was artistic so that I could try to reproduce them. I really do wish this.

I'm more able at music and found some really weird lucid dream instruments, but they don't make much sense from a scientific (ie playable) point of view when I awake.

Your skating story is interesting. It would be interesting and valuable to make a list of such tasks for LDers to try out. I tried writing wiht my left hand a couple of times in LDs but found it as difficult as I do when awake.

Owen

Owen, the biggest challange I have to accepting the belief that our dreams are created solely from our own minds is our ability to do things that we have never experienced in our waking life. And to do them so naturally as well.

I have several examples of things that I have done in dreams (some lucid and some not)that I simply did not have any waking experience of before the dream and yet the actions were done flawlessly with the highest levels of authentic sensations. Brenda's backward ice skating is a perfect example. Of course another one that most lucid dreamers experience is that of flying. The visual aspect of flying can easily be created in most peoples mind but the absoute realism of the other sensations involved intrigue me greatly.

I have on several occassions practiced Tai Chi in the dream world only to find the sensations much more intense and my movements perfectly orchestrated beyond what I was capable of in the waking world.

TY

Hi, Reverie and all!

I read the whole series with great interest. They actually did a good job to tell the story of modern dream research and in part of dreaming culture. Congratulations to you, Reverie, and to Keelin (very keen article, I must say) and Stephen. It is good to see, that all your work is honoured, same counts for the work of ASD, which is mentioned there, too.

I'm a little (really just a little) proud I participated in the work here and still do my humble part in ASD international.

Keep on good work, all of you

P.S. Reverie I posted the link to Daniel Erlacher, who is working on learning motor skills in LD (but could imagine you already know each other, he wrote some lines in the oneironauts network thread, I remember)

Dear Keelin!

Please excuse me, it dawned on me I didn't use the right word in the context of your article: Keen is German "kuehn" what means "brave", too. And that is what I wanted to say: You're a brave heart. I see your lines more often here and hope, that the hardestest times for you this year are over.

XOXO

Ralf

Thomas,

I think that flying is a bit different from the backward ice-skating because it is not possible to fly in the waking world.

I play a bit of chess. It's hopeless to practice this in LDs as the board and pieces change all the time!

There is a theory, by Revensuo I think, that our practice of various activities in dreams, eg social activities, improves our waking performance and this provides an adaptive advantage for dreaming generally.

I think that Stephen LaBerge and others are trying to demonstrate that LD practice pays off, but I'm not sure that there is any hard evidence with statistical support yet.

Owen

Hi Reverie!

Thanks for sharing your more complete article on art & creativity in LD. Having seen some of your beautiful and playful creations, it's obvious there's no end to what you can conjure up. You dream girl!

And Dear Ralf! It is such a joy to find you here. Thank you for your kind words and heartfelt compassion. Even during the darkest days, we can all count ourselves so fortunate to be lucid dreamers! And yes, you deserve to feel proud of your contributions here -- they are always "muchwhat" appreciated. ;)

Wishing the best of dreaming to all, Keelin

Hi, all- and a special warm hello to you, Keelin. It seems the only time we're all in the same space is if we're quoted in the same article!

Although I don't stop by here as often as I'd like to, you wonderful forum folk are in my thoughts.

Again, Keelin, I hope you are well-- I think of you often.

Have splendid and healing dreams...

love, rev

Hi, Ralf-- nice to hear from you!

I do not know of Daniel Erlacher. I am rather less connected with the LD world than I once was (Once Upon a Time In A Universe Far Away). Thank you- I will investigate.

Be well, rev

Owen- I love the idea of lucid dream musical instruments. Can you tell us a bit about them, or do they defy waking explanation?

rev

Hi all,

Brenda- I'd really liked your ice-skating dreamreport in the "post-gazette.com". I posted in the "application of lucid dreams"-forum --> "lucid dreaming and sport" a request where I asked exactely for such reports. Unfortunately no one posted till now. Maybe you can copy and paste the part of the ice-skating report in this category and other lucid dreamers get inspired and post their experiences there too :-)

Owen and others- actually, we try to find out if lucid dream practice has any effect on waking life performance in the field of sport. Up to now we didn't conduct a learning experiment (we are working on that for next year), but we could find that if you do movements in your lucid dreams you have similare responses of your sleeping body in respect to eeg-, emg-patterns, heart rate, respiration rate and timing (well, on this aspect we are working, but roughly time aspects seems similare to actions during dreams in respect to waking life). On the background of mental practice - a field in sport science which has a long tradition and could show effects of mental practice on physical performance - we can conclude from our results that practice in lucid dreams should have similare learning effects, because practice in LDs (or mentally) is like practicing physically on a centralnervous level, the difference is "only" that the body limbs are inhibitated. Besides empirical evidence we found plenty of anecdotal evidence for this idea - like the report from Brenda. Up to now we cannot answer the question if she learned skating backwards "as a skill" in her dreams (motor learning) or if she "just" found enough courage to try backward-skating in real-life (psychological aid), but what is apparent, is that Brenda accomplished the backward-skating after she practiced ice-skating in her dreams! We heard stories about dream practice for skiing, headstand, horse-riding, aikido, juggling, etc. Actually, there is one phenomenological study from Tholey where he asked lucid dreamer to practice specific skills in their dreams, all of them reported - on an experienced level - learning effects from this skill in their dreams and in their waking lifes. But those are - of course - no hard (what ever this means) evidences.

Again my request to all lucid dreamers out there to share their experience in lucid dream practice of sport with us and the rest of the forum and post your dream report in the above mentioned section! And, of course, also report negative dream reports where lucid dream practice didn't help, because I think that there are some limits of practice in LDs (no one will fly in his real life after plenty of dream practice). For example I´d liked the dream-chess example from Owen, which cleary demonstrated the limits of sport practice (yes, some people would categorize chess as a sport) in lucid dreams (the same might be true for all team sports).

Thanks alot Daniel

Brenda,

I checked now and maybe I misled us both in the sense that the weirdness relates to 'unplayability' rather than exciting new instruments. In my NLDs I've seen strangely shaped string instruments and keyboard instruments with multiple sets of keys and strange stops and mechanisms.

If anyone is interested I do paste below my LD piano experiences because they do relate to the current topic of the value of practice in LDs.

To me they seem to point to the futility of such practice for the piano at least.

Owen

I go into the room on my left and see the piano. First I play and ascending passage like a scale with both hands. The sound of the piano is soft and mellow not tinny as in other lucid dreams. I then play ascending and descending passages with both hands using all fingers as a concert pianist would do in a concert. The sound I hear is very pleasant, of complex ascending and descending passages of runs and chords. I realise that I am really playing with my hands and fingers but that the sound I hear has no relation with what I am doing with my fingers. I play around with this for some time listening to the music. I note evidence that my finger movements are not linked directly with the sound when I see that as I ascend the keyboard the pitch of the notes actually drops and vice-versa.

I become lucid and turn around and see the room but immediately the scene starts to break up and I start to spin. After some time I bend down and feel the ground, and then resolve to make a piano. I note that the spinning sensation has ceased. I grope around and find a solid object. It is a piano lid, which I lift. I start to play scales with both hands. The lid of the piano twice falls on my hands, and I put it back, eventually it stays back. I hear the sound of the scales clearly but the notes from my hands are not in unison. It is as if I am playing a real piano in the dark.

I walk and come across a piano with the lid open. I think about trying to play the scale that I had problems with yesterday. I see the black and white keys clearly but have the impression that the black notes in 2s and 3s are morphing between groups of 2s in tandem or 3s in tandem. Thus I cannot easily establish my starting point. However I begin to play a scale. I hear the notes as rather quiet, distant and tinny.

I remember the piano and go into the dining room. I think to try to be very active to keep in the dream. I see that the piano is damaged. Some of the keys have been pulled out and I can see the wooden mechanism inside. I reflect that perhaps some children have been playing with it. I will have to call someone to mend it (perhaps I am loosing lucidity here). I try to play the piano but there is no sound.

Facing me at the top of the stairs is a piano. Behind it is a Christmas tree with coloured decorations like witch-balls. I remember that it is not really Christmas in the waking world. Again I note that the scene is light and clear. I look at the keyboard and then play a few notes with my right hand. I hear the notes clearly but they sound distant and tinny. I think about trying to play a waltz with my right hand. Instead I continue downstairs rubbing my hands as I go.

I pick up a violin, it seems to be mine, it is reddish in colour. It feels very real. I also pick up a bow and begin to play. I play a few notes and then start to play the beginning of a piece I know well. I do not find it particularly easy to play. It occurs to me that I could stay and play for some time unlike my usual habit in lucid dreams of quickly moving on to some other task. I note, looking through the window, that there is bright sunlight outside. I decide to go and investigate.

I recall that in previous lucid dreams when playing the piano I was sometimes disappointed by my recollections of it. It seems to me now that I can have a very clear perception of my playing as everything seems so real. I go into the room and am very surprised to see someone sitting at the piano. The person is hunched over the keyboard. It is me! The other me gets up smiling and we go into the hall.

I see a brown piano and go and sit at it. There is a small keyboard that I start to play. The base notes do not sound at first but then there is some sound from them. The notes are soft and distant and the piano seems very old. Then the keyboard has shrunk to only 6-8 notes. I think to try to alter the number of keys. I look away and look back at the keyboard but the number of notes has not changed. I repeat this several times, always with the same result. I notice that there is another black piano just to my left. Then I cover several notes of the brown piano with my left hand so that there only 3-4 visible. I look away and then back. This time there is an extra note.

But instead I go into the dining room. There is a piano in the correct position but I note that it is unusual in appearance. I sit down at the piano and play a chord with both hands. I note that it has quite a tinny sound

The front door of the house is glass and I can see inside. I morph through the door and am inside. There are two or three men there and I ask about Snoopy. I see a piano nearby and wonder if I can pick it up. I take hold of the piano, lift it up and wave it in the air. I then hear a sound like breathing and my thoughts return to Snoopy. I try to move away the visual scene with my arms.

I get up turn around and see a brown piano. I remember the task of checking very vigilantly whether I can generate a piano in which the white and black notes are correctly spaced. I go and sit down at the piano and look at the keyboard. I see the white keys and a group of three black keys in front of me. However other black keys seem to keep appearing or disappearing and there is a long stretch of white keys with no black notes. I watch the black notes morphing briefly. I think to try to play the piano nevertheless but the lid, which has a hinge, falls down. I try to prop it up but it does not stay. Nevertheless, I press my fingers against the keys and hear a rather faint sound. I get up from the piano and see the TV again.

Daniel,

It was interesting to read above about your research. It sounds really exciting. I hope you succeed in answering some of those questions.

Can I be a skeptic?

It is well established that sportsmen and women gain from psychological training. For example the 100m runner, quiet at the blocks, visualising him (her) self hurtling along the track and bursting first through the tape.

I can accept that similar lucid dream practice might help but cannot see why it should be any more effective than waking psychological and visualisation exercises. In fact given that attention is often reduced in LDs I'd have thought the practice less effective than in the waking world. Then given the amount of time available in the waking world for such practice, why bother with the couple of seconds or minutes available while dreaming. If you prove me wrong I guess it means that there is something special about dream practice.

I find it very difficult to accept that dream practice causes useful motor learning. Suppose I cannot ride a pushbike and decide to learn in LDs. Learning to ride a bike in the waking world involves the body and mind testing methods to overcoming the falling and wobbling caused by gravity. The body and mind theorise and the environment rejects the bad theories until one theory works and I ride the bike. I do not see any reason why the dream world should provide the same similar harsh criticism of my attempts. Well in fact we know that the laws of physics do not hold in LDs.

I think it is on a par with the following. Why don't you get a sample of people who don't know or have forgotten temporarily their blood groups. Take them in a lab and show them how to do the test. They prick their fingers, put blood drop on slide. They go to fridge get antisera, add it to blood etc. Then you can let them see the clotting reaction (or not) but conceal from them their own results. Then tell them to do the same thing in an LD, they get blood get antisera do test etc but then in the dream they record their blood group A, B, O, AB etc.

Then you match their LD blood group with their waking world blood group. If it's possible to learn the motor skills of skating in an LD then the blood grouping, awake and dreaming should match!!

Owen

But this thread of messages is on Art...and here is perhaps the difference from Science. In LDs one might come up with a new theory, a new guess at the truth a new creation....

Thus I can perfectly see how a painter might benefit from LDs, hence my earlier regret that I have little talent for painting.

For me sadly: although I might see a great new work of art in the LD gallery of my mind, I have no skills honed in the waking world to exploit this.

Owen

Hi, guys-- Lucid dream experiences are physiologically more similar-- very similar-- to actually doing something than merely visualizing ever is- even if you're a world-class visualizer. This is not a mere opinion-- it's something that's supported by research.

That's why people get so excited about using LD-- it's almost like the real thing, baby!

dream on, reverie

Reverie:

But, as Owen eloquently pointed out, LD'ing is NOT the real thing. The "reality" surrounding us in LD's might be awesome, littered with intriguing detail, bathed in complexity, and perfectly sensual, but in the end all that wonderful experience is drawn from just one place -- the dreamer's mind. If that dreamer has never been on a bicycle, she simply won't be able to properly learn how to ride one in dreams. Sure, a dreamer might win the Tour de France in his dreams, but he'd best put off entering the event in reality until his waking body has become familiar with the dynamics of riding a bike with real world factors like gravity, gravel, and balance in play.

So yes, I agree that LD'ing totally outperforms conscious visualization, and it absolutely can positively affect a dreamer's artistic aspirations. But if you're looking to learn a physical activity that you've never before experienced in the physical world, remember that you're only exposing your mind to an image of the experience -- you're not exposing your body to the real thing.

Sorry about continuing the digression -- now back to LD'ing and art?

Peter

I have noticed that if I just make something appear as I wish it to be while lucid dreaming it won't help me learn to do it in the physical world. Same thing goes for envisioning myself being able to do something easily. It can be a lot of fun though, a confidence booster, and a great way to get the creativity pumping.

However, I've found that if I concentrate on going through each motion step by step in my lucid dream, allowing for mistakes and imagined difficulties, it does enable me to learn and improve myself in the physical world The more vivid the lucid dream, and the harder I make it on myself, the better it works. I also repeat the dream several times until what I'm working on becomes easy to do.

Blue Topaz

Hi, Peter. Yes; if I implied otherwise I now will emphasize that my main point is, a lucid dreaming activity is far more similar in important physiological ways to its waking counterpart than imagination can be, and that this has been demonstrated scientifically. If I had the time I would poke around online and cite literature, but it does exist. I point this out because it's an oft misunderstood concept. Many people underestimate the significant physiological similarities between LD and waking reality. We could have fun and detail this at another time on a more relevant thread, but it's worth noting here since the idea was brought up.

If certain prevailing practical limitations could be overcome--- and I know this is a BIG "if"-- LD could be a phenomenally resourceful state because of this similarity. For LD to be more broadly useful in this regard we would need more universally reliable access to the LD state, and ways of making the state last longer and be more stable.

I know we have touched on a lot of things here in this thread, and I will enjoy meandering back to the art theme, but I will say that I myself learned to ride a bicycle via lucid dreaming when I was a young teenager. Yes, I'd been on a bicycle, but with absolutely no success because it made no sense to me that we could balance on one of the darn things.

It doesn't take a lot of information for our brains to develop a surprisingly accurate biomechanical algorithm. Our brains know the laws of physics, and we know how are bodies work. Until I dreamt lucidly of riding a bicycle, I didn't consciously and physically understand how the pedalling itself was what kept the bicycle stable. True-- if I had never been on one, this wouldn't have worked. But even my limited exposure to a bicycle was sufficient information.

This is without even addressing the psychological components of doing something in a LD.

As far as art is concerned, if we got better at remembering LD visual information, even if we we didn't call ourselves artists we could in theory use this information to create art. If your brain can design unique artwork in a dream-- truly unique and not specifically derivative-- then what remains in terms of executing it in the waking world is a matter of skills or techniques, and perhaps some modifications to suit waking practicalities.

Be well, fellow dreamers... I'm off for a Christmas vacation... see you all in the New Year!

love, reverie

Reverie:

Clarity is such a good thing, and as usual you're an ace at delivering it! I agree, almost completely, with everything you said, now that you've succeeded in putting us both on the same page. Sure, once your mind has had opportunity to touch an activity -- even in the most rudimentary way -- it has the ability to assimilate that activity into its understanding of the physical universe. For example, if a child puts her hand before a flying ball, the ball will stop, and if she closes her fingers, the ball won't fall to the ground. By learning to catch a ball the child has displayed a working understanding of vector analysis, kinetic and potential energy, and gravity - pretty awesome! And yes, I believe that it can be more efficient to tap that understanding in a lucid dream, if only because you can ask the universe to hold still for a second so you can better consciously comprehend what your mind already seems to know (like riding a bike that doesn't roll into the bushes every time your mother gives you a push so you have time for your brain to teach you about pedaling). But the overriding caveat on it all is that your mind MUST have exposure to the 'physics' of an event before you can learn how to properly experience it in a dream.

The best example of this is flying - I've read many times about people's amazement at how easily we can experience flying in a dream even though we can't do it in reality. But are we really experiencing flight, or just our own fantasy of what it should be like? How many people zooming through the stratosphere actually feel the 300 mph wind, gasp for nearly absent oxygen, feel their eyeballs getting ripped from their sockets, or realize that they should have brought their GPS system into the dream with them so they could tell where they are going? I guess there must be someone in history who tethered himself to the back of a plane and allowed himself to be dragged behind it at high speed and altitude. If he survived it, his mind is ready to understand flight. I won't even get into space travel! My point is that dreamers who are using LD's to improve their performance in the physical world must be careful to actually be exposed to the activity they wish to develop. If they're not, then their minds will simply create skills based on imaginary suppositions that will probably not translate to waking world performance.

Okay. That was the last digression, I promise! Now back to art and dreaming. I couldn't agree more with your statement about dreams being progenitors of truly unique artwork, and the blank canvas that LD'ing offers only amplifies this natural condition.

Not sure if any of this makes sense (I've barely finished my first cup of coffee), but it's enough words for now.

I hope your Christmas was wonderful!

Peter

lucidity returns, at last in NH..over 65 1/1/04--6:12a. est

Noticing I'm off the ground, I say to a young male student nearby," Hey, I'm lucid". Dreamthinking to myself--so this is something like considering "dream viagara"..I can't soar, am barely halfway up to the ceiling..couldnt make it thru the 1st wall, but got thru the 2nd...while trying to act cool so the student wont suspect this LD has been a long time-a-comin"

[The application of this dream is to encourage a second try to go beyond( thru) a seeming barrier blocking a community dream-related project presentation....flying thru the associated fear...which I have been considering just abandoning.]

End of lucid segment.. a delightfully welcome new year gift, however brief. Have many pulsating, rippled dreams/neon and /or vibrating and brilliantly vivid colors...but those are "borderline" as I understand SL's definitions.

Hi all, first time in, long time dreamer. Checked the article link and don't ya know its from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette and I'm mentioned, having been interviewed back in Oct by Virginia Linn. If you log onto the PG site there are a whole weeks worth of articles re: various aspects of dreaming. A good web site for a local dream group that I used to belong to when I live in Pittsburgh is dreamjournalist.com. Nice to 'meet' you all. Ed Wirth

Hello all,

I have recently been trying to find musical inspiration in lucid dreams.

I did so this morning. I am outside in a downtown/urban area quad. I ask outloud for musical inspiration both from my subconscious mind and from the spiritual collective consciousness. I then look around the quad to see a very tan gentelman seated at a picnic bench. I approach and ask if he can play a song, clarifying that I will give him credit in the event I write it upon waking. He agrees but then begins a very long-winded examination of dreams and music. But before a song plays, the dream fades into black as he continues to talk. But I am able to remain conscious during the darkness, and then the dream reappears. I am still in the quad, but now there is a red-haired guy in front of me. He smiles and nods towards somebody behind me. I turn to see he has motioned to the tan guy who is reaching inside a before unseen ticket booth. I imagine he pressed "play" on some surreal music playing device in the ticket booth because a song begins to play! It starts quiet then errupts into a loud punk-esque song, Green Day meets Fugazi. I am so stoked on the song I slap the guy five. But moments later, the song ends. I ask for him to play again, he does. (The second time the song plays it is pretty different from the first play...I think this is similar to trying to read the same thing twice in a dream.) I read the red-haried guys name tag, "Lyonne Toons". Then I awoke because someone was knocking at our door. A blessing in one way because the song was thus still fresh in my head. I picked up my guitar and tried to recreate it.

Problem is, when I awake to recreate the song I am sadly unable to add all the fascinating notes and haunting details that I heard in the dream. Will I ever truly be able to recreate a lucid song as I hear it in its amazing lucid state?

Does anybody here have suggestions to help getting art from its lucid state to reality, music or otherwise? Do you think it is possible to compose one song from several lucid dream attempts...i.e. learn the bass line in one dream, drums in another, guitar in another and vox in the last, but all playing parts of the same song? This seems unlikely. I have not yet tried to play an instrument in these lucid dreams like Owen reported above, but I will try that next time.

It was very interesting to read Owen and Brenda's tales above and I'd love to hear more! Thanks all and happy creativity,

John

John:

Success could lie in memory. It appears that you're already halfway there, what with being able to lucidly conjure an excellent song (thanks for sharing the adventure). The critical part now is memory. If you work on your memory skills, you might learn to retain those fascinating notes and haunting details that escaped you (of course, an excellent memory might also prove those notes a bit less exciting in waking life -- let's hope not!). Also, if you are able to get enough of the piece in your waking head that you can constantly play (or sing, or hum) it so that it becomes a part of your day, you might just discover that you can go back to hone it in numerous dreams.

Now maybe the artists among us might chime in with some real experience and advice...

Best of Dreams,

Peter

I see that it's been quite a while since anyone has posted anything on art and lucid dreams, but I figure this is the most appropriate place to post a link to an article about Salvador Dali's use of dream incubation, lucid dream induction and automatism for painters.

http://gamerplusplus.com/jasbales/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1